> hello from new york. it's sunday, and this is "up with chris hayes." and it's the official day of dedication to the memorial of reverend martin luther king jr. we are focusing on the reverend king, his life and achievements and how his legacy continues to shape our lives. my guest right now has an extraordinary story to tell about that legacy. she has a play that opened last week. it is set on april 3rd, 1968, the last night of martin luther

king's life. the play was originally produced in london, a small theater upstairs from a public, about as far off broadway as it gets. let's look at a scene from the show. >> last time, i heard was preaching everybody the same, negro folk, white folk, we are all alike. >> at the most human level, we all the same. >> what one thing we all got in common? >> we scared. we all scared. we scared of each other. scared of ourselves. they just scared. scared of losing something they have known their whole lives. fear. fear makes us human. >> it is such a great pleasure to have you here. can i congratulate you on blowing up. you are blowing up.

>> how are you? >> your profile, it's wonderful. >> thank you. >> tell me about the play. it has two characters. dr. king and another character, who is she? >> a mysterious chambermaid named kami. the play is set on april 3rd, 1968, and it's in the motel and it's after he has given the mountain top speech, and the play follows him dealing with the struggles the night before and looking at his past, and he is really challenged by this maid because she is the absolute inthasist to him. >> what is the challenge that she presents to him? >> well, she is very interesting in that she is an honorary black panther. in 1968 the civil rights movement was -- there was a mutation occurring, and even

before he had led a march that dissented into chaos, and it had a lot of people going away from the nonviolent approach, and it was fight the powers that be, and she talks about that black nationalism and black self determi determination, and she's a strong woman. >> he vows to come back a week later for the march. one of the things you do in the play, and there is stage direction. we hear the great sort of american saint, right, dr. martin luther king relieving himself in the rest room. what were you trying to do with that moment in terms of setting the play for the audience? >> to me, it's about he is a human. oh, my goodness, he urinates. when i walk into my mother's

house in the living room, there are two pictures on the wall, jesus and dr. king, and they sit side by side, and i grew up revering him, and he was a saint and he had become a deity, so he was a ghost that haunted me almost, and so for me, the play was a way for me to take him off of the wall and take him out of the history book and make him a real life flesh and blood human being, who had challenges and sometimes smoked and had stinky feet because he was always on the road, you know, and it allows an audience to see that this man who was so extraordinary was actually quite ordinary, and it inspires people, and they can be like if he was ordinary and did that, well, me as an ordinary person, i can do that too. >> is there resistance? the thing about smoking, he

sends somebody to get him a pack in the beginning. is there a resistance to having that humanization happening? do people react strongly against that when they see it? >> oh, absolutely. absolutely. maybe the first week of previews there was a young woman that walked out, but then she kept on walking back in, and then she would walk out, and no, no, he can't be doing that, and the play is funny, too, no, it's funny, no! and then she would walk back in because she wanted to know what happens next. there is a resistance to seeing him as a human being. a lot of people know that dr. king was not a perfect person. you guys were talking about that earlier. and i think it doesn't take anything away from his nobel peace prize or the voting rights bill, and he was an amazing person, but he was a person. >> you have a personal connection to the story because you grew up in memphis, and just a few blocks from the hotel.

>> my mother grew up around the corner from that hotel. >> tell me your mother's story, because it's a remarkable one in how it connects to the play. >> well, she is my first personal connection to dr. king. when i was growing up she would tell me the story about how he came to speak on support of the sanitation strike, she wanted to go and hear this amazing thing. she had never been in his presence before. she had seen him the week before and she thought that man had such pretty skin, but she participated in the march that went in chaos, and he came back and vowed to come back the following week, and she was like i want to be in his presence, and she asked her mother, big mama, my grandmother, can i go and hear him speak, and there was a rumor that somebody was going to bomb the church, and big mama was like sit your butt down, you are not going anywhere near that church, and she did not get to go, and the next day he was gone, and she lost that chance to be in his presence. that was the biggest regret of her life.

>> the maid character in the play has your mother's name. >> yes, my mother's name. >> and then you engineered an alternate universe. >> yeah, it's a way to give my mother a retroactive audience with dr. king. it was so funny, and we saw the play in london, and i did not tell her i named the character after her. she started freaking out on the front row. and she was like, oh, my god, and everybody was like is this woman having a seizure or what is going on? and it was so unexpected for her. and the character is unexpected as well. >> the new play called "the mountain top." we want to bring more folks here, and i want to look at king's earlier years because it's under looked at. across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter

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we're back with msnbc one contributor and columnist, and then our professor, and we want to play the clip from dr. king on "meet the press." we got to spend the we can going through all "meet the press" archives, and this is a gate clip of dr. king talking about the nonviolent direct action and demonstrations. >> dr. king, to follow-up the question, recent polls suggest that in terms of national reaction, demonstrations are now counter productive, by continuing them, don't you run the risk of doing more harm than good? >> again, i contend that we are

not doing more harm than good in demonstrations because i think demonstrations serve the purpose of bringing the issues out in the open. i have never felt that demonstrations could actually solve the problem. they call attention to the problem. they dramatise the existence of certain ills, and i think the initial reaction to demonstrations is always negative. >> that's dr. martin luther king speaking in 1966, two years before the ends of his life. you and i are about the same age, and -- >> we were not there. >> no, we were not there. >> yeah, not even thought of. >> but i wonder if you are watching what is going on with occupy wall street, and those words have a resonance as far as calling attention to the problem. i feel like we are talking more

about inequality in economics, and the banks now. you have been following it and what is your feeling about what is unfolding? >> i have been following it from the sidelines because i have been in the theater. but, you know, you can't escape it. it's everywhere. i actually feel like it's an amazing time, because my generation, we, you know, we were inspired by the civil rights movement, but we are so far removed from it, that we are like, oh, those marches are over. we did not know how to protest our anger, our disgust. i think the occupy wall street is an opportunity to where, oh, we can demonstrate and use protest to call attention to the problem. obviously it will not solve it, but i think it's beautiful to see all the people, different ages and colors standing together in the way that we did in 19 -- in the 1960s. i think that's remarkable. >> i think it's funny, though, that occupy wall street has the same problem, which i think is

gradually becoming solved, but what king had at the end of his life, the question is exactly what do we protest? it's one thing for ten people to have an unfocused cynicism. and king, his idea is what do we protest now, because they were more violent protests, and she was opposed to them, and they were opposed to him because he was too gentle, and he died before he knew how to bring it together. >> they were not a violent coordinating committee. i do want to pause there. but i think -- >> but they were philosophically less zealous -- >> yeah, and i think we -- >> that was the correction. >> with that said, i do think it's important that that transition that king does at the end.

it's an idea that he already accomplished the '64 civil rights act and the '65 voting rights, and then he writes about chaos or community? and the ideal, all the things that we think of as the capstone accomplishes of the civil right move, and then the possibility of chaos is still the very real possibility of american racial dissent into that, rather than a kind of movement towards community. for me, it always is so useful, for example, and we are reminded we have to pause and look back on what actually counts as an accomplishment. we don't always know in that moment. king, he had done some ugly compromising things. he sold out the mississippi freedom democratic party and kept them from being seated by selling them out to the democrats in atlantic city, and that was our great courageous

leader, and he silenced others in his movement because they were too hot. i think it's so important that not only humanizing him in his personal self, but that he was an imperfect leader, and still exceptional. >> i don't think that we think about the latter part of king's life very much. we don't talk about the post victory king. it was only a few years because his life was cut short, but he was struggling with this problem of what are the demands, which is something that we hear about right now, economic justice, what does that look like? and then more specifically to maintain the sort of syntrality to the movement, and this sort of extremely religiously grounded vision of christian brotherhood and sisterhood. >> i want to make a point. i was very much around, and -- >> well -- >> we will let you speak last. >> exactly.

>> and what i recall so clearly in 1967 when king gave his famous anti-war speech outside the church, and it was the idea that we -- that was a time when things began to go haywire in the country, and we lost the momentum of the word war ii period, and the two things king was talking about at the time and what we did not pay enough attention to was the war and violence on the economic injustice on the other hand, and now we're in 2011, and we escalated in afghanistan and

the countries all over the place. we have economic injustice like we have never seen since the depression. that's what we need to keep in mind at this moment going forward, and that's what occupy wall street is doing a great service by focusing us on those economic injustice issues. >> and a lot don't know he was dealing with economic injustice at the end of the his life. i did not know about the poor peoples' campaign. >> what was it? >> amazing new march in washington that dr. king was trying to create. it was like 1968, he had started it thinking about a year before, and they had really come together, and then even inside of his ranks, people were like maybe we should not talk about poor people but maybe we should talk about civil rights, civil rights, civil rights, and king was taking a triple pronged approach to injustice, and talking about the car and the threat to injustices as a threat for justice everywhere. >> and whatever passes, the legislation, the great testament at the end of his life, is the housing act, and it was an account to move the civil rights

movement out of the question of southern injustice, although that existed, but into the question of housing, because housing is where economics, wealth and environmental justice, everything has to do with your access to education to all of these things has to do with where you live, and the last achievement comes officer after his death and i think that's the legacy of king. >> you know what is interesting about king in particular, if you think about black history, and you think about the voting act of '65, and then housing in '68, and then what? in terms of drama and what you might write a play about, it's hard to come up with the drama of the black uplift after that. it has been harder to know where to go. in the same way, i think king's drama had ended. if he lived, i think he would have come a very respected stateman, but i don't think there were any more concrete walls for him to break down, which would have been very frustrating for him. he was symbolic of the whole black liberation movement in

general in that way in his life arc. >> the play "the mountain top" is now playing on broadway, and it's starring samuel jackson and angela basset. check it out. >> thank you. thank you so much, i appreciate it, i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar...

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us. no civil rights bill can do this for us. if the negro is to be free, he is to sign with a peninsula and ink of self asserted manhood, his ae mans pags proclamation. >> we are talking today, of course, about martin luther king's legacy, and while going through the archives this weekend, i was struck by how much the mainstream media seemed to be at war with dr. king insert ways. he made several appearances on "meet the press," and just about each question that was posed to him was bordering on hostile. we strung together a few moments to give you an idea of what i am talking about. take a listen. >> are you saying the end

justifies the means and you are apparently breaking local laws hoping for a better conclusion? >> is it correct to say you don't oppose interracial marriages? >> dr. king, how many white people are members of your church in atlanta? i would like to know just if this xhun yao niz fits in. >> there was a report that a picture of you taken at 1957 at a tennessee interracial school is being plaserred all over alabama billboards with the capture, martin luther king at a communist training school. can you tell us what you were doing there? >> for the record, i was only at a communist school for a few months.

but aren't those shocking? the reason they are shocking to me was because we have this vision of him as a unifying figure, and we have the santa claus martin luther king, and i was in the archives thinking everybody would pay him the deference and would understand that he was obviously on the right side of all of the issues, and question after question is aren't you saying people should break the law? they are really obsessed with that if you go back to the transcripts. aren't you a communist? isn't there a black person somewhere doing something bad to a white person that you should have to defend? and it struck me, i know he was a polarizing figure in his life, and watching that made me realize in reality what that meant? >> clips like that are the things that get me in trouble. i am supposedly the black guy that doesn't understand that there is racism, and really it's i say how much does it matter, and people say more than you

think, john. i think about clips like that where perfectly educated and what was considered a normal person, and they would ask questions like that, and they meant it, that was normal living room conversation. at this point, america is far from perfect on race, but those things look properly backwards to us because we moved ahead. i think wow, it's not like that and think of the progress we made, and other people tell me, no, we're still living in hell. >> isn't it true there are no white people that go to trinity united of christ, and isn't it true that you are not really a citizen? i just want to say on the one hand i am very much with you on how much progress has been made and how important to say this moment is not like that moment, but some of the discourse about if you are pressing against the system, you are necessarily not

even part of it, and you are not even a citizen, and these are some of the very same kinds of anxieties that emerge over the past three years in the context our own presidency. >> i would briefly say, less mainstream now than those things were then, but i take your point. >> no question, less mainstream now than it was 40 or more years ago, but it's still rough out there. >> and the fact is the mainstream is not the mainstream anymore. in other words, we are a lot more messed in terms of the media. there was a time -- >> we have 30 million people watching right now, just fyi, i don't know what you are talking about. just so we're clear. >> the fact is that limbaugh, beck, when they say these things, or "fox and friends," they have the difference between what was mainstream and what they are now is there is no one sort of chain of media.

and to a certain extent, i think the hat that she was wearing -- >> that was a perfect metaphor. it was a lot more blatant. >> well played. >> and the idea that king was a polarizing figure. you have to keep in mind the majority of americans were against desegregation of public facilities, and against desegregation of public schools, and certainly against mixed marriages, and i saw that idea come up, and in many parts of the country it was illegal for whites and blacks to get married. it was illegal. so he was very much a polarizing figure. >> and in the lbtg movements, we cannot put simple rights on the ballot. imagine we put the simple rights on the ballot at that moment, you would not have got una majority of americans in support of it. >> the great thing about the interracial marriage question,

it's clear from the context that he is asking the question to reveal how deeply radical king is, because this is the craziest thing, and this is the craziest thing you will ever here, don't you support interracial marriage? >> yeah, and we are talking about the fact that i grew up in virginia, immediately post jim crow, and i can remember going with my mother, who is white, to swimming pools. my mother grew up out west. we were at the wading pool and she looks at my father and says, bill, why are their two swimming pools next to each other? and my father was like, diana, that's jim crow. that was true in my childhood. >> there is also the fact that the anxiety that you see in the press, there is a white establishment press as unreflective racism that is

clearly channelled. i think mostly the anxiety about direct action is interesting. we have the images of the bridge and the montgomery march and the fire hoses on the girls, and all the sort of black and white images that we have of the civil rights move, and it makes us think in our minds as it being sort of romantic, and also obviously right, and not as threatening disorder and chaos, and something that even sympathetic white liberals were a little not sure that they wanted to go along with. and that drains a lot of black people, and drains the radicalism. and when we are facing something ourselves, like occupy wall street or some other large mobilized direct action, if you had that little renaissance in you, that's normal but also part of the way that it goes down. >> part of my sense is why

society digests martin luther king in the way that we do, we see him now as he could not have been a polarizing figure. and it's the same thing that happens in terms of the broader civilized rights movement. there was street heat. and within the context of that movement, martin luther king was on one end of the nonviolent spectrum, and there was another end of the spectrum where the guys really promoting the second amendment were guys showing up with shotguns in oakland to meetings. >> right. >> so you are advocating that? okay, that was a joke. >> i was just trying to calculate my youtube -- >> what do you think of that? >> well, i think that there is value in a movement like occupy wall street and to put it in today's context, that essentially makes -- it's the

sorkin piece in the "new york times" the other day, he admits a bank ceo called him up and said should i be worried about the protesters? he said i don't know, i will check it out. and the bank executive rather than worried about is this being an accountability moment, he is working about his own safety. i think that's unfortunate because that's what is happening there. but i think social unrest is the time of leverage that people have -- >> i want to pause on one thing here, and remind ourselves, one, there were tons of civil unrest, and social action, and occupying of buildings and all this from the 1890s to the 1950s. it didn't begin in the 1950s. it was crushed and crushed and crushed by the state, and failed and failed and failed, and so the memory of the civil rights movement is not because it happens, but it's the first time it succeeds. that's one of the things i want to remind us about.

and the second thing is, the part of the reason it's successionful, is because of the violence against it and it was publicized. what is so important here is it is not just the action against it, but it's the will -- i mean, it's not just a matter of a pushback. it's not cowardly. this was -- people died. the street heat, people were murdered. >> and the other thing, there was street heat on the other side. let's not forget that there was white riots, and there was people from the streets disobeying the law, which is the order of a desegregation order showing up at the school to bar -- that's why they had to sends the national guard. >> there was tv, and it went meant that people in the soviet union could watch what was going on, and the kennedy administration was embarrassed about the open racism in the united states, and it made it

looks like the geo political stage. and it was the anti-communist movement, and that's the problem. >> we will talk more about this actually and about the role the press plays in civil rights, and in struggles for social justice right after this break. of whete can make it from australia to a u.s. lab to a patient in time for surgery may seem like a trumped-up hollywood premise. ♪ but if you take away the dramatic score... take away the dizzying 360-degree camera move... [ tires screech ] ...and take away the over-the-top stunt, you're still left with a pretty remarkable tale. but, okay, maybe keep the indulgent supermodel cameo... thank you. [ male announcer ] innovative medical solutions. fedex. solutions that matter.

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to help with slow intestinal transit when consumed 3 times per day. 7 out of 10 doctors recommend activia. and the great taste is recommended by me! we are learning the chicago police department has made 175 arrests where they set up the chicago version of occupy wall street. we usually check out the op eds, and today we wanted to focus on the memorial to dr. king. and this is august 28th, 1963, cover of the jobs and justice march. and i offer this as an antidote to the clips we played before as somebody in the moment at that time getting what they are seeing. i have a dream he cried again

and again. each time the dream was a promise out of our ancient articles of faith. phrases from the constitution, all ending with a vision that they might all one day come true. he was full of the symbolism of lincoln and gandhi, and he was militant and sad and sent the crowd away feeling like the long journey had been worthwhile. what a great piece of reporting. really nailed it. i wanted to read that specifically, because the flip side of the hostile press role that we saw in the montage is that there is no question that at a certain point the northern white establishment press particularly, which had unprecedented kind of monopoly of the public's attention in the 1960s came to see what the true nature of southern segregation was, and that coverage really changed perceptions, wouldn't you say, bob? >> i absolutely agree with that. and what i think is different now, and you are talking about

the mainstream press, and it's much less important, and actually much less existence in the old days, and the times are important because it's the paper of record and people come to the "times" to see what happened, and the issues coming up today and the occupy wall street movement, these issues resonate with so much of the population right now, so when you were talking about civil rights in the mainstream press, the people looking at the mainstream press saw the victims of the oppression as the other, but they thought it was intolerable what was happening to them. now, what is really interesting is less of a mainstream press, much more in the way of communications, but very fragmented but issues that really resonate with the majority of the population. >> so back then you have this sort of concentrated mass media shining the light on an issue about how we treat a minority

in the country. now we have a media that is trying to get the story of how the majority is being screwed, exactly. >> a reminder, the real turning point was not the violence against john lewis, but it was the murder of white allies and those incredibly brave, courageous white students that came south and were murdered, and white southerners doing there who were murdered that helped to bridge this, as you point out, this other. >> that's true. but also the young girls who were murdered in birmingham -- >> yeah, the innocence. >> and the fire hoses, and the snarling dogs, and, yeah. >> the provocative counter factual i want to ask you, in the environment when the established press does not have the hold as a fact of how many people watch the evening news broadcast, and how many people

read "the new york times," is it possible to find a point of leverage for the kind of social change that we need in the absence of that kind of concentrated media entity? >> i think it's a question of what the social change is. one of the problems that i think that we have had in this country is that our press has become so sequesters for the most part on economic lines that the urgency of what has been going on in the country in terms of prolonged unemployment and loss of wages has not been felt by that group of people enough to really appreciate the urgency that is going on. i think, you know, that is one of the biggest problems, i think, that we have in terms of real social change in terms of economic justice in the country. >> the unemployment rate is around 4.5%, which is near full employment, and for african-americans it's around 16%, and people young it's in the 20s, and if you look at the full measure of unemployment, so

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of the hands of our soon-to-be born child, and i conclude we should not selly our little one with antique things such as magazines. and then mitt romney is posing while tossing around money will be making a regular appearance in the general election. speaking of money, president obama raised $70 million for his re-election, which is good sense for the election, but bad for the economics. you should know my all -- colleague, dylan ratigan is here

on this station. and then the cfdc commodities commission had limited how much speculating wall street could do on various commodities. the vote is set for tuesday, and reuters reports that they have enough votes to pass the limits. so if prices stabilize, you will know the bureaucrats got it right and made things better for businesses alike. you should know the wall street occupiers are so committed to sticking around for the long haul, they have been consulting with experts to construct a map of their village that will enable them to make it through the winter to come. finally, you should know as you watch the martin luther king jr. memorialized today, that the present day santa claus image figure, he was deeply polarizing and controversial. he was not embraced by the establishment and viewed by many as a troublemaker, and casted by white liberals that his program by civil disobedience caused disorder. you should know the threat of

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unfold this week. first because we've been discussing reactions and disobedience and the legacy of dr. martin king luther jr., i want to play this piece of tape which we did not get to earlier. it's two people are going to close their account at bank of america in santa cruz, and this is what happens. >> we're members of this bank. >> you cannot be a customer and protester at the same time. >> oh, hell, no. >> they walk in with signs that say i want to close my account and they say --

>> they say you have to go. >> they said you cannot be a protester and a customer at the same time. i think that ice going to be kind of an iconic quote. >> i think it's important that people see this about what happened yesterday at a citibank here yesterday in new york city. >> i'm a customer. i'm a customer. i'm a customer. i'm a customer. >> what are you doing? >> hey? >> what are your doing? what are you doing? what are you doing? oh, my god. this is wrong. this is wrong. this is wrong. wrong. >> shame, shame, shame, shame. >> you should know that citibank has issued a statement the woman entered the bank, wouldn't leave and became disruptive. that's why they called the cops.

that woman was not inside the bank when she was arrested. i want you to see that video out there. it's evokes discussion now. i want to hear from you. >> as we look at the protests against concentrated wealth, we should keep in mind that the median wealth for african-americans in this country is a meager $2,200 and the median wealth for african-american females in the united states is $5. >> wow, that is an amazing statistic. sam. >> going forward, people should know that occupy wall street is going to grow. not only are you going to see direct action in the context of the banks, but now there's going to be more direct action on line. occupy boardroom is just launching now, and they're going to basically start to flood the e-mail boxes of some members of board rooms of banks and other major corporations.

>> i just want to make sure that i emphasize on african-american females. single african-american females. >> melissa harris perry, author of "i have not chatted up your brief book sister citizen." also an msnbc analyst. what should folks know? >> certainly on the same question of sort of thinking about king, we've put in, granted, one figure, king, but if that were more representative of the civil rights movement there would be so many names and faces of people who we don't know. remember that king comes to prominence of the montgomery bus boycott. that boycott means that people stayed off of those buses for an entire year. not one person broke ranks for a year. there's one person in that memorial, but it is memoriali

memorializing hundreds of thousands of people who did that work. >> that's great. >> you know, chris, actually i will be father for the first time in about two and a half months, and i wonder whether my daughter will be born into an america that's undergoing a really significant revolution from the left. i think that would be very interesting and beneficial in many ways. in terms whether that's going to stem from occupy wall street, thing this week is when we're going to see, pretty much by saturday in terms of the international residents, in terms of media coverage, in terms of what's going on wlrks or not that's going to be a significant something or whether or not we were interested in it as newspeople for a few weeks in 2011. >> you can find majorityreport.com. bob hebert -- i screw up the end of the show every single day. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next week at 7:00

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