gotten a lot worse and it can get better again. >> fantastic. i believe will get better, in fact. a lot of us do and you're one of them. thanks for the wonderful rant. that does it for today. i'm dylan ratigan. "hardball" up right now. hitting below the beltway. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, welterweight championship. things got really feisty at last night's republican presidential candidates debate in las vegas. rick perry attacked mitt rom my over health care and immigration. romney hit perry back, and everyone hammered herman cain's tax-raising 9-9-9 plan. well, the big question after all that republican intramural bickering is what have they got, and is this all they have got, and that leads to this. could it be that the winner of

last night's debate wasn't even on the stage, and the winner was perhaps president obama. he must have loved what he heard last night t.plays right into his re-election strategy which is i'm better than that crowd. then, it's time for big ideas. those -- those occupy wall street protests are a reminder that we're not going to solve our big problems by doing little things, but will the public do big stuff to deal with new problems and a new study finds laws requiring voters in south carolina to show photo i.d. cards. would that dispropowersately affect minorities? why do you think prepare republicans are doing it? that's the story that we're covering. finally, let me finish tonight with the republicans refusal to focus on what is the real war obviously on illegal immigration and their intense focus on suppressing democratic voters. we start with the nasty business of last night's republican

debate. howard fineman, an expert on the fightgait is an msnbc political analyst and "huffington post" media director and josh marshall is with talking points memo. two approaches to this. here's one of the exchange everyone is talking about from last night. here's mitt romney versus rick perry getting into a heated back and forth, if you will, over immigration and who -- who mowed my lawn. let's get to it. let's watch this. >> and mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home, and you knew about it for a year, and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy. >> governor romney? >> rick, i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life, and so i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that.

>> i'll tell you what the facts are. >> rick, again -- rick, i'm speak. >> the newspaper -- >> i'm speaking. you get 30 seconds. this is the way the rules work here is that i get 60 seconds and then you get -- and then you get 30 seconds to pond? >> and they want. >> anderson. >> the newspaper said they knew you had illegals working. >> can i finish talking? >> yes, sir. >> let me finish what i have to say. >> let's follow the rules. >> a tough couple of debates for rick and i understand that so you're going to get -- you're going to get testy. >> anderson! i mean, i don't know how you read that, but he was crying for help going after poor anderson cooper. he was -- he wasn't reffing too strongly last night. letting the fighters go at it. >> anderson cooper was like the referee in a pro wrestling match. the guys were taking the razors out of their trunks and he didn't see them. >> what's your theory why rick

perry went at him like a mad dog? >> a couple of things. first of all, perry's got to get back in the ball game. his numbers have been dropping. wants to be in the story and the surest way to get in the story is attack the front-runner which is mitt romney, and rick perry wanted to establish control of the western division, conservative ranks challenging romney, pushing aside herman cain and everybody else, and that's what he managed to do. and the other thing that's going on is that now that romney is on the defensive on immigration, it takes the heat off rick perry for being on the defensive on immigration, and the dynamic of the whole thing is that candidates are leap-frogging each other to get to the right on the issue of immigration. they could regret that later, but for now they will take it. >> let me go to josh marshall. the idea that they are deciding who is going to be the republican nominee for president of the united states in these times when we're competing with russia on economics, with china on economics, brazil, the whole world, we have the toughest economic competition in our history, and it's going to get tougher and tougher and tougher

to deal with these issues of a world labor market and resource depletion and everything that we have to deal with to be arguing over who cut my lawn when illegals -- i'm sorry, undocumented cutting people's lawns is endemic, pandemic in this country in terms of people doing that kind of outdoor work. your thoughts. i thought it was ridiculous they talked about this stuff. >> this is a great debate if you're in the political news publishing business because it is like professional wrestling. going back to what howard said, i think it's even more real than professional wrestling because these guys clearly don't like each other which isn't always the case with the wrestlers. you know, it is kind of weird, i mean. you've got making physical contact and these snide remarks at each other. you had michele bachmann making this comment about -- about president obama's relatives and stuff. it was really kind of a train wreck. i do think though that, you know, politics is always zero sum, and i do think rick perry did help himself partly because

he got under mitt romney's skin and he was able -- >> you think so? how do you know that? how do you know he got under his skin? i thought he was rather controlled country club. he seemed like he was condescending to the other guy. your thoughts? again. >> i think that's true to an extent, but, you know, i don't think that he totally lost his cool, but, you know, what mitt romney has been doing through this -- you know, through these debates is up there with the sort of like happy to be here, we all know i'm really going to be the nominee. >> i see. >> and kind of smiling through it like that, and so rick perry got him off that game, and i think that's a plus for rick perry, even though rick perry didn't look that good doing it. >> he was biting on his ankle. notice how newt is envies of the fight, saying gee whiz, i wish i was in this fight. >> and newt suggested that the way he would win the presidency is by having seven three-hour debates with barack obama. >> good. >> 21 hours of debates. i agree with josh. what happened here is that rick

perry dragged mitt romney down to his rick perry's level which is a tough street fight in a dusty street in texas. >> let's take a look at this. a very telling moment for mitt romney. the former massachusetts governor again in a heated back and forth with perry over the use of illegal immigrants to take care of his property. he defended himself, but listen to the words he uses at the end. they are incredibly incriminating. let's listen. >> we hired a lawn company to mow our lawn, and they had illegal immigrants that were working there, and when that was pointed out to us, we let them go and we went to them. >> are you a -- >> you have a problem allowing someone to finish speaking and i would suggest if you want to become president of the united states you've got to let both people speak so, first, let me speak. so we went to the company and we said, look, you can't have any illegals working on our property. i'm running for office, for pete sake, can't have illegals.

>> well, then he said i'm running for office. i mean, if i was a regular guy i'd be out there stuffing the law like everybody else. >> he was doing fine up until the end there in order to try to bolster his credibility when he said well, i told them, i'm running for office which means if he weren't running for office he's hire any illegal he could get his hands on. >> that's what -- everybody is going to hear it that way. he has to keep his hands clean because people are watching. what a statement! >> exactly. that's the key thing. i'm not sure a lot of these things -- a lot of things that were said in that debate we're not going to be talking about them a week from now, but that's the kind of thing i could see showing up in a republican primary debate commercial in january, february, march, into april, because it is one of those things. it goes to something that is one of mitt romney's key vulnerabilities, that he's, you know, that he's a phony, just all package, and that is what

you can imagine someone in mitt romney's position saying. sure, you know, whatever, of course you hire illegals but i'm running for office here. give me a break here so it shows that maybe the immigration issue is not one that's really so close to his heart as he's trying to make people think it is now. >> he says, of course, if i was running for office i'd be grabbing the cheapest labor i can find. here's rick santorum and newt gingrich both going after mitt romney's massachusetts health care. first santorum said the plan was too similar to president obama's health care law. >> you just don't have credibility when it comes to repealing obamacare. your plan was the basis for obamacare. your consultants helped obama craft obamacare and to say you're going to repeal it, you have no track record on that that we can trust you that you're going to do that. >> and in the last campaign i was asked is this something you would have the whole nation do, and i said no. this is something that was crafted for massachusetts. it would be wrong to adopt this

as a nation. >> that's not what you said. >> you're shaking your head. >> it's in your book that it should be for everybody. >> he took it out of your book. >> is it his turn or mine? >> i'll tell you what, why don't you let me speak. >> you're allowed to change your position but you can't change the fact. >> rick, you had your chance, let me speak. >> you're out of time. >> i think he's trying to get anderson cooper's job, not president of the united states. i have to show this other thing. howard, didn't he say both? didn't he say i want to apply this nationally and i wouldn't apply it nationally? isn't he on both records? >> and in the hard back of the book he said it would be a great model for the nation. >> and by the paperback, he took it out. >> okay. >> it's -- i believe it's not in the e-book either. >> newt gingrich also tried to land a blow on the health care issue, but mitt romney fought back. let's watch. >> so there's a lot of big government behind romney care, not as much as obamacare, but a

heck of a lot more than your campaign is admitting. >> we got the idea of an individual mandate from you. >> that's not true, the heritage foundation. >> got it from you. heritage foundation and from you. >> that is just not true. did you not get that from me. you got it from the heritage foundation. >> and you've never supported. >> i agree with them. he said to this audience plain wasn't true. that's not where you got it from. >> have you supported in the past an individual mandate? >> i absolutely did, with the heritage foundation against hillary care. >> you did support. we got the idea from you and the heritage foundation. >> a little broader. >> the demonic aspect of the person of newt gingrich, and i do mean that. he speaks with a forked tongue where you see both forks at the same time. he said two opposite things. i agree with heritage, i did not agree with heritage. that was the wrong order. first he said he was not part of it and agreed with heritage and then denied it. how can you do both in one exchan exchange, josh? >> not very well. in that case.

i think this is another thing that comes out to me about that little clip is even though he had some problems with rick perry this time, i mean, mitt romney has become a really good debater. i mean -- >> yeah. >> you can tell his research team has been all over this stuff, and he's got it all in that head. now, you know, when you pull out facts like that, sometimes you can -- you can rub people the wrong way because you're sort of like a smarty pants or something like that. >> yeah. >> but one thing i have noticed is just how much mitt romney is so much better at this than he was four years ago. just no question about it. >> yeah. but it's also true, josh, not only does he know how to pull stuff out to attack the other guy, he's gotten slippier than ever before at denying things. >> yeah. >> for example, on the illegal -- on the people who mowed his lawn, he said i don't think i ever hired an illegal, so that was carefully parsed, okay. >> right. >> so, yeah, and that's -- that's the whole -- that's the whole game. >> he didn't get out of the corner when people were looking for work and pick them up.

he had them brought to him. going into the debate much of the focus was on herman cain leading our poll, including all the polls, in fact, and his 9-9-9 plan. in the beginning every other candidate called that plan a mistake. let's watch them gang up on him. >> reports are now out that 84% of americans would pay more taxes under his plan. >> herman, i love you, brother, but let me tell you something. you don't have to have a big analysis to figure that out. go to new hampshire where they don't have a sales tax and you're fixing to give them one. they are not interested in 9-9-9. >> the state tax is an apple. we are replacing the current tax code with oranges, so it's -- it's not correct to mix apples and oranges. >> herman, are you saying that the state sales tax will also go away? >> no, that's an apple. >> we're replacing a bunch of oranges. >> and i'll be getting a bushel basket that has apples and oranges in it because i have to pay taxes and people in nevada have to pay both taxes. >> you have said in recent days

mr. cain's 9-9-9 plan would be a heard sell than he let's on. how so? >> you just watched it. >> well, josh, you first this time. brother, can you spare me a nine? i mean, this -- this thing here, brother, i mean, are they kissing cows cousins or what? he didn't say bro at least? what's this brother thing all about? >> all sorts of plans with herman cain, i don't know where that came from, but i sympathize with these other candidates though because they were coming at cain are hard numbers that are just irrefutable and herman cain up there who -- who sort of slips through now as still kind of a novelty candidate, and he's up there saying, you know, that's an orange, that's an apple and the rest of them are sort of like what do i do with that? >> i'll tell you what you do with it, in washington we pay 6% sales tax, add 9 on to that, 15%. that's not apples and oranges. it's one added to one already, another sales tax on top of

another sales tax. i don't know what cain is talking about. any way, obviously additive. thanks, howard finement. a lot of fun at the expense of the presidents. i don't think the president is worried tonight. josh marshall, thank you. coming up, why the big winners i suggested of last night's republican debate may very well be the democratic nominee next summer which probably is going to be obama. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. give me voice control. applications up. check my email and text messages. hands in position. airbags. ten of 'em. perfect. add blind spot monitor. 43 mpg, nice. dependability. yeah. activate dog. a bigger dog. [ male announcer ] introducing the reinvented 2012 toyota camry. it's ready. are you? ♪ the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic.

for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be. ♪ because your moment is now. let nothing stand in your way. learn more at keller.edu. brand new nbc news, marrist poll numbers out of south carolina and florida. let take a look. a look at scoreboard. there it is in south carolina, herman cain leads the republican field with 30 points. mitt romney is a close second at 26%. rick perry is way down at 9%. look, he has to win that one. similar story in florida where cain is neck and neck with romney, 32-31. the numbers that cain is posting are amazing. perry a distant third again. showing a pattern here. look at what happens in the general election matchups in florida. the president is leading romney

by two points. that makes sense, 45-43 and the president leads herman gain by six points, 47-41. ahead of perry, 47-39, all seems to match up the conversation. we'll be right back. as shipping it, though. i mean shipping is a hassle. not with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. if it fits it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. that is easy. best news i've heard all day! i'm soooo amped! i mean not amped. excited. well, sort of amped. really kind of in between. have you ever thought about decaf? do you think that would help? yeah. priority mail flat rate shipping starts at just $4.95, only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship. you might think all these cost about the same... protect about the same... but what if you have an accident? allstate accident forgiveness starts the day you sign up. these guys might make you wait a couple of years. we can't wait a couple years. [ babbles ] no you cannot. thanks.

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back to "hardball." as you just saw last night's republican debate was vicious, aggressive and at times surprisingly personal. who came out of it looking good? did anyone? well, the candidates will try to spin it, of course, but the truth is there weren't many people left unscathed from last night's performances. so does that mean the obama team is the only crowd actually happy this morning, waking up happy? going to ask two experts. dede myers, former white house clinton press secretary and ed rollins who got ronald reagan through a very difficult re-election campaign and also walked with michele bachmann as her senior manager of her campaign until last month. ed, thanks for joining us. herman cain was asked if he wanted to take back comments he made of people protesting on

wall street. let's listen to what he said and how loudly the crowd loves what he says. >> two weeks ago you said don't blame wall street. don't blame the big banks. if you don't have a job and are not rich, blame yourself. that was two weeks ago. the movement has grown. do you still say that? >> yes, i do say that, and here's why. [ cheers and applause ] i still stand by my statement, and here's why. they might be frustrated with wall street and the bankers, but they are directing their anger at wrong place. they ought to be over in front of the white house taking out that frustration. >> well, there he is, ed rollins. what do you make of the crowd, they cheer the execution, boo the gay soldier, want people to die on the gurney and now a guy that says get a job, you bunch of bums? does your party have any sympathy for any human being in any condition or walk of life? >> i would hope so. we're compassionate

conservatives. >> oh, yeah, right. >> a lot of that last night. >> this debate last night reminded me of sort of the "housewives of new jersey," you know, very entertaining but you wouldn't want to marry any of them, and i think at the end of the day that's what you ended up with here is a -- i think what happened is perry knew he had to get in the game. it wasn't the audience in front of him. it was his audience that's going to raise money for him, and he had to prove that as the conservative challenger, he could basically make the case against romney. what i think became very clear with both he and santorum, two true conservatives, that disdain that they have for romney and everything that he stands for really came out, and that venom is what romney has to fight this entire campaign. just a pickup from where it was four years ago when i was with mike huckabee and not a single candidate that was on the stage with romney at the end of it would have supported romney, and i think that's his challenge today if he's going to be the nominee of the party. >> dede, hold off for one second. so fascinating. why do people who compete with

him, is it jealousy, great hair, rich, beautiful white, great home, is it envy? what makes them hate this guy? mccain wouldn't pick him as his running mate, picked palin instead out of complete venom. >> a lot of people feel. a little what george w. bush or h.w. bush had initially and he overcame over time, but my sense is a guy like perry, a son of a tentant farmer, 25 years, has never lost a race in texas, been elected texas governor three times, he sees this guy who at the end of two years, his first term, middle of his first term, he decides i'm not going to run for re-election in massachusetts it's too tough, i'm going to start running for president, and i think that's a lot of what this thing s.i'll be whatever romney's history has been i'll be whatever i need to be to get elected including saying things in the past. i'm not anti-romney and saying things like i'm not a reagan republican, you know, and i just

think today he's a reagan republican, you know, so i think there's a lot of that that's occurred, and conservatives absolutely loathe and despise this man and that's why he's never gotten over 25% in the polls. >> what do you think of this rabid behavior, like he's got rabies, rick perry going after romney and romney fending him off by going after acooper? >> there's frustration with the previous debates, romney has done this rope-a-dope and stayed out of the crossfire and given cogent answers and tried to seemed pleasant and soft edges, and yesterday rick perry clearly made the decision he wasn't going to let romney get away with that, so he dragged him down into the mud with him so i don't think either of them came -- >> you're going to get in the mud with me. >> if you think about what could romney have done to come out of that better, there was really nothing. he's going to get talked over and yelled at and talked down to or stand up. he didn't do everything as well as he could have.

appealing to the wrath always looks a little wimpy. the most revealing moment we've seen of him in this entire primary is when he said, you know, hi to tell the gardening company not to hire the illegals because i'm running for office, totally tanz actional, that's what people hate. >> in presidential campaigns, whatever president obama has stored up, this will be among his tools come next october when they have the debates if they makes it. they will pull this out on him. >> that particular comment? >> that he was wanting to cover. play clean as long as someone is watching. >> the whole theme, very transaxal, unclear what -- what the hill that you would die on. it's unclear. >> take a look at a couple of michele bachmann's moments last night. not so stellar. at the end of the debate as anderson cooper was actually wrapping things up, she insisted on -- she wanted some

>> yeah, i think that she's hypnotized when she goes out there, as i said when i've been on my show. she memorizes these lines. she lives in a paralegal universe from the other debaters. did you notice that? >> she's always lived in a paralegal universe. >> you know, appealing to the obama hateers is not only not going to make her a good president, won't get her elected because most people in the country don't hate president obama, may disagree with his policies. >> not most, 20%, 30% hate him. something like that. >> yeah. a strong personal approval numbers, it's just bad strategy. >> people who hate him with generally unhappy in life. >> thanks so much. >> up next, the gaffe of the night coming up in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ courier ] the amazing story of whether bovine heart tissue

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back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up, it's hard to mention gop candidate herman cain without referencing his past job obviously as ceo of godfather pizza, but how many people have actually sampled a slice that have pizza? is it any good? i guess it was a matter of time before a taste test was launched. let's see how some of the politico's recruits reacted to that first bite. >> i don't know about this one. >> it's not that appetizing. >> for sure. >> i know about this one now. >> ugh. >> wow. >> that is so bad. >> the cheese is really sour, the crust like a sponge but all the way through. >> right. >> soaking up all that badness. >> well, that certainly don't body well. i think that there might have been a bias factor perhaps,

hardly. the taste testers included people from both parties as well as a washington pizza gormand. next up, why do some republicans shower praise on tea partiers for taking to the streets pack in 2009 and are now targeting today's occupy wall street protesters for attempting to have their voices heard in much the same way, doesn't quite add up and people were taking note. let's hear from "the daily show" and how they took the offenders to tack right now starting with some 2009 flashbacks. >> i'm asking people to come to washington, d.c. by the carload. >> take to the streets with their voices and their votes. >> people are trying to fight to take this country back. >> now is the time. let your voice be heard. >> enough is enough. >> fight for your country. >> we're the american people! >> we can take this country back. >> oh, my god, it's working! eric cantor, are you seeing this? >> believe it or not, some in this town have actually condoned

the pitting of americans against americans. >> yeah, it was you. >> we can take this country back. >> i think you were wearing the same shirt. >> so great. as they say here in washington, by the way, where do you sit, politically is where you stand, and finally would it be another 2012 gop debate without yet another blatant gaffe on part of one of the candidates? who takes the cake this time. let's give it to michele bachmann with this statement on president obama's foreign policy decisions. >> now with the president, he put us in libya. he is now putting us in africa. we already were stretched too thin and he put or special operations forces in africa. >> hmm. libya is on what continent, congresswoman balkman, answer, africa! up next. those occupy wall street protesters are angry, but will politicians pay attention to what they are saying?

robert reich says the protesters are a reminder, a big one, that our problems are big and they need big answers, and he's coming here next. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. )hs5g6k$'jefpl,[f=aymh he thinks it's a 3-sheeter. i say 1-sheeter. [ female announcer ] in this lab demo, 1 sheet of bounty leaves this surface as clean as 2 sheets of the bargain brand. super absorbent. super clean. bounty. [ ben harper's "amen omen" playing ] we believe doing the right thing never goes unnoticed.

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i'm sue herera with your cnbc market wrap. a late session slump leaving stocks solidly in negative territory. the dow jones industrial average gave up 72 point. the s&p 500 slipped with 15, and the nasdaq fell 53. in corporate earnings, the fed's beige book report and, of course, the european debt crisis, well, all of those combined to move the averages lower today. the federal reserve said economic activity grew at a modest pace in september, but investors were more interested in the outlook which remains weak and rather uncertain. in europe, french president sarkozy and german chancellor merkel are meeting in frankfurt

today, and ahead of that key summit in brussels this weekend. here at home, an avalanche of earnings. morgan stanley beat estimates helped by a one-time profit game and after the closing bell, american express beat on earnings. revenue was in line with expectations. ebay flipped it with inline earnings on its revenue beat, and that's it from cnbc. we are first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball" and chris. oh, this is going to be a great segman. welcome back to "hardball." the president is out selling his jobs plan as we all know in north carolina and virginia. the occupy wall street protesters continue to expand to new cities, and it feels like there's something in the atmosphere that has people ready for change and something big perhaps. former labor secretary robert

reich has put together a bold big plan that he says could get this country back to work. we're going to go through the plan's highlights with secretary reich. his new back "aftershock" is now out in paperback and joining us as well is joan walsh, editor at large for "salon." robert reich, playing professor, you lay out a plan for the country that includes, seemed right when i read, big jobs plan, like the wpa, works progress administration from the '30s and the civilian conservation corps, also from the '30s. cutting the military budget in half, to come up with the scratch for this, and higher taxes for the rich with incomes above $5 million subject to a good old-fashioned 70% rate. mr. secretary, i want you to go over this in a positive way if it could ever get through congress. if eric cantor and the boys with ever say, sure, try something. nothing else is working. if that day came, what would happen in terms of our macro

economy to the unemployment rate if this went into effect? >> well, if you had a really large jobs program, chris, something that was on a scale and in proportion to the extent of the crisis we actually have right now, we could get people employed. you know, 25 million americans right now who are looking for full-time work. this is unprecedented since the great depression. and in order to pay for it we really do need to tax the only people who have any money. the top 1% of americans are now taking home an unprecedented, almost a record percentage of total income and wealth. again, we haven't seen this degree of concentration of income and wealth since, well, over the last 80 years, since before the great depression. so it's just logic. if you want something that is at least proportional to the degree of the crisis we have and we've got to pay for it, then we've got to do something that is indeed bold. >> look, i'm with you on this because i -- just in aesthetic

terms, robert, and joan, i want you to follow this, walking around my old neighborhood in northeast philly where you see the old penny parker neighborhood, the nice way we put the parks back together when they did things like this in the big city and the bronze thing that said this is when it was built. in washington the beautiful bridges and parks in the city where public property, put together, the big lions heads and the big buffalo in the zoo and all the buildings, jefferson memorial, all built the way robert described it. our forests were all protected and groomed and basically preserved by ccc workers. it's real work that needs to be done for a better country. i think he's right. your thoughts? >> i think he's right, too. i'm with this plan, and, chris, you know, as you describe what you and i and secretary reich used to see growing up, a public space that was truly public and that made you proud to be an american, and it made you proud to be a part of a country that could do big things and could

build things and could create parks and really, you know, as we all grew up there was a sense that the country was getting better and creating more and more opportunity for people, and i think the really difficult thing for a lot of people to understand right now is the tax rates that built the american dream are the tax rates we're talking about here. these were the tax rates after -- from world war ii until -- until the reagan administration, and for a while in there, robert will correct me, it was 90% under eisenhower for a while, the top marginal tax rate. >> yeah. >> so, you know, i think we need to be having this conversation and the great thing about occupy wall street is the three of us are talking about way more exciting things than we were talking about on september 16th. whatever this movement does, it's created space. >> if i can just say, i agree with joan, and it's a very important point here. chris, i was in washington last week, and i came up to -- i had a lot of meetings, you know, washington, meetings and meetings, but i actually had for the first time i've been in

washington in years, conversations with people who spontaneously began to talk about income inequality, the concentration of power in this country, the need to do something big. i mean, the mere fact that we have this occupation of wall street movement that is extending around this country is changing the tenor of the conversation in washington. it's already having a success. >> well, i asked one of the occupy wall street protesters the other day, he was on "hardball," what motivated him to get involved. let's listen to an actual protester's answer. >> for me it was feeling like i didn't have a place for my voice to be heard, feeling like that i wasn't represented in government, feeling like i wasn't represented in the broader economic system. you know, coming out of college and having $50,000 in debt, being unemployed for two years, working odd jobs that barely pay the rent with no health insurance and limited options. >> you know, joan, i don't understand why the representatives in congress that we see all the time and talk to, all they do is play defense. they sit around protecting

programs from being taken -- reduced by 5% when they should also be out there saying here's what government can do, and i'll tell you. i was out in yellowstone with my daughter, trip of my lifetime, if anybody doesn't think this is what makes america great they are stupid enough not to go there and by the way at a certain age, robert, you get to go there for the rest of your life for ten bucks, and i've got to tell you it's the greatest dale in the world. >> i can't wait. >> and we built it like ccc workers. >> you can wait. ccc workers and wpa projects made this country beautiful and why we hold back. give you one last pitch. go ahead, robert, why should we do it, the positive thing, what we can do with the money? >> the positive part is we are a can-do nation. we don't sit back and allow 25 million people to be looking for full-time work. we don't allow 14 million people to be unemployed. i mean, this is not the american way. it's also not patriotic. when i look at the occupiers and i -- and i see and ask myself what's the moral foundation of

what they stand for, what they stand for is that we are all in the same boat. it's not a bunch of individuals out for each other. we're all in the same boat. we care about each other. we want to make sure that the benefits of this country are spread widely enough that we can all gain something out of it, and the opportunity is genuinely equal, not that there's handouts, opportunities in terms of infrastructure and schools and jobs. this is -- this is not a radical idea. this is something that is absolutely mainstream america, and what's radical is what's happening in washington. >> right. >> thank you, robert. >> we are the 99% is the new e pluribus unum. that's the new update of e pluribus unum and we should think of it that way. >> i remember a president that said ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. thanks both. a new law in south carolina

to require voters to show photo i.d.s and that new law is disproportionately affecting minority voters. we'll hear what the chairman of the democratic party has to say. that's coming up next on "hardball," only on msnbc. free . and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro. today i own 165 wendy's restaurants. and i get my financing from ge capital. but i also get stuff that goes way beyond banking. we not only lend people money, we help them save it. [ junior ] ge engineers found ways to cut my energy use. [ cheryl ] more efficient lighting helps junior stay open later...

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we are going to make sure we maintain the integrity of our voters. we are going to make sure we maintain the integrity of the election system, and we're going to do it by saying if you can show a picture to buy sudafed, show a picture to get on an airplane, you should be able to show a picture to do what is inherent in our freedoms and that's voting. >> republican governor nikki haley back in may after she signed a new voter identification bill into law. since then there have been complaints by many south carolinians that the law will effectively end up disenfranzing many traditionally democratic supporters in the state and a new study just released by the associated press backs up many of those claims by proving that blacks in the state of south carolina will be hit the hardest by the new photo i.d.

requirements. the department of justice is currently looking into whether or not the south carolina law violates the voting rights act of 1965, but will the law stand up to the increased scrutiny, or will it the scrutiny? judith brown-deanis, and dib harputlian is the chairman of the democratic party in south carolina. i know you have a very hard time winning general elections down there on the democratic side for president in these recent years, but why are the republicans getting so randy to roll up the vote, if that's what they're up to. >> well, i think two reasons, chris. they saw what happened here in 2008. huge african-american turnout. huge african-american turn out-of-and they are wanting to do whatever they can to diminish that. remember, now, we've got a couple hundred,000 people registered to vote, but they don't have picture i.d.s, and to

get that this elf to pay money for a birth certificate, and many of these people are poor. so the idea was why would we have to convince somebody to vote, just don't let them vote. >> suppose you're 80 years old, start with that group, you're surviving an older person, elderly, imagine you have to haul yourself down to some government agency, spend $20 or whatever it is, find out where you go next, then next, all in the pursuit of being able to vote. >> it becomes the barrier to voting. you think about thelederly people that have tofold find a birth certificate, public transportation, it becomes the barrier, the easy way out. this is nothing but old-time voter suppression. a state legislature puts in place laws to block african-americans and latinos from voting, then it hits the elderly and students. south carolina, the numbers that

came out are startling about the impact it will have on students, particularly black students in the state of -- >> why black students? >> because many of them, again just like 25% of african-americans in this country, do not have state-issued photo identification. >> they don't have driver's licenses? >> many do not. it's not a common thing. >> i know, in big cities, it's the same thing. >> that's right. >> i don't know what to make of nikki haley, but why so windswept and elitist in her conversation. most people don't get on airplanes. i think mild parents were on an airplane once in their life. i think the whole family went on the to see my grandmother go off to st. louis. what is she talking about? like everybody flies, everybody should have a photo i.d. cashed. who is she now? where did she get that from? >> she's out of touch with reality. she just got back from ra trade mission to paris, where she spent our money, $22,000 on pate

and champagne on a cocktail party, stayed in $600 five-star hotel. she hasn't got a clue. this makes perfect sense to her. why convince african-americans, poor people, students to vote for these crazy programs we have, just don't let them vote. >> i think the aclu ought to be involved and everybody else. the associated press announced and finds that a greater number of voighters in south carolina would not have the identification required by the state. the report shows in richhand county, 50% of those impacted were non-white voters, while in orangeburg, a shocking 73% of those affected were non-white. what are you going to do about this, judith? >> a few things. in places like south carolina and texas, we're filing letters with the department of justice. the department of justice has to approve these laws. >> because they're still covered by voting rights, which rick

perry wants to get rid of. >> and rick perry won't provide the race evidence, the data that the department of justice needs. 600,000 people in the state of texas do not have photo identification, and those are registered voters. we're trying to collect that data, prove to the department of justice that they should stand with the voting rights act and protect voters, and in some places where we think these laws, we're going to see them again in north carolina we think the legislature with pull it back and we'll be fighting it every step of the way. >> my experience is that the way we monitoring elections in this country, somebody -- local people sitting behind a desk, they all know everything, you vote by your local neighborhood, when you give your address, people know who you are. your thoughts. -- i think that's the way it's done. it isn't perfect, but do we need an i.d. system? >> you're right on the money. not one reporter case of voter fraud in the last ten years.

and it will cost $2 million to implement this. as we said, this will disenfranchise people, so it's got nothing to do with integrity. >> it smells. thank you very much both. >> thank you. >> i like the right cause, the good cause. when we return, let me fin how the campaign has turned into a race to the bottom. it doesn't look too good last night. i'm sure they chuckled in chicago and the white house. i call it the welterweight championship. maybe it should by the feather manywater. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] nature valley

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let me finish tonight with this. the republicans run to remove president obama has gotten ugly. the candidates are now competing to destroy each other. talk about bottom feeding. rick perry going back into the old tired story about mitt romney having hired a lawn service that hired workers in the country illegally. is that what the decision to lead this country into the 21st century should be based upon? they were not even arguing immigration policy. to his credit, mitt romney mentioned the e-verify system, but the hard fact is that many american businesses obviously don't want to stop hiring people in the country illegally. the very last thing they want is a verifiable i.d. card they are required to check, one that really works, because that would stop them doing precisely what they're doing, getting cheap work out of people