time for one quick e-mail, john. what are they saying? >> camilla writes, there really is a difference between brand name ritilin and the generic stuff. >> yeah, you don't want to get your ritilin from a mexican online pharmacy like some of us do. it always ends badly. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. and so i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that. >> i'll tell you what the facts are. >> i'm speaking. i'm speaking. >> are they allowed to use their hands? you're not allowed to use your hands. i would hate to be able to zoom in right now. and see what's going on inside rick perry's head.

to be fair -- from what i understand, that is the clip that is always playing inside rick perry's head. good morning, welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, october 20th. with us onset this morning, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. >> and also the managing editor of "fortune" magazine. >> what? what do you mean how he is he looking at you? >> like he has something really rude to say. >> no, i don't. >> are you sure? >> andy, it's good to see you. >> occupying "morning joe." >> you are occupying "morning joe." i hear there were only 200 there yesterday at certain times. >> comes and goes, ebbs and flows. >> we may have more people -- >> it was horrible weather. horrible weather, but we've got news on occupy wall street,

which i'm sure a lot of people down on occupy wall street who are supporting the president are going to be thrilled about regarding fund raising. but last night, you saw the cardinals, first game of the world series. what happened last night? >> 3-2, cardinals, chris carpenter from new hampshire and about four or five relief pitchers, they shut the texas rangers down. >> all right. let's go to news. the front page of the "washington post" has a fascinating story about wall street. >> let's start there. president obama has been looking to sympathize a little bit with the occupy wall street protesters. the "washington post" this morning is reporting that this campaign tactic has yet to impact his donations from the banking sector. according to the paper, the president's personal campaign fundraising combined with the money raised by the democratic national committee brought in far more money from wall street donors than all of the republican presidential candidates combined. >> you mean mitt romney? >> no, no --

>> wait a second, are you saying -- because i'm a dumb country lawyer. are you telling me barack obama himself raised more money from wall street, which he vilifies every day, than all of the other republican candidates combined? are you saying that seriously? >> i am. >> holy cow. >> a "new york times" report earlier this week had said romney had gotten more from the financial sector, however that report -- >> it's not true, actually. >> focused only on the president's campaign cash, leaving out dnc money, which will aid him in his reelection effort along the way. >> what about the other side of that. we hear anecdotally that wall street's fed up by barack obama, yet they're still giving him money. >> there's a simple answer, keep your friends close and enemies closer. you want to give money -- it's

true. if you have an excess $100,000 to give to presidential candidates, you know, give 60 to the incumbent and you don't know how the republican thing's shaking out yet. so keep -- >> it's an absolutely big hedge. >> it is. it's curious. >> it is curious. more money than all republicans combined. i've got to say, mika, at least, romney has some ends in wall street. >> there is actually more to this story. >> i'm sure he's raising -- >> no -- >> probably holding the money like the 20-year-old kid with all of that cash. >> the new fundraising data shows the president has received more campaign cash than romney from bane capital. >> you're kidding. really? >> that's the boston based private equity firm that romney co-founded. >> one guy could've given $50,000. >> there was one guy who gave an enormous amount of money from

bane capital. >> those numbers are not that big, though. for these people it's not that big. >> maybe not for the people like you that burn cash in your fireplace. >> anyway, well, that's pretty fascinating. mike barnicle, this president -- he skewers -- and i'm seeing studies where in 2007 he said really nasty things about wall street and in 2008 he stopped and raised more cash from wall street than any other candidate in u.s. history. and then in 2011, he's doing the same thing and this article is suggesting that in '12, he'll once again be quiet. it's just a scam. you tell people on occupy wall street one thing while you're taking cash in the other hand. >> yeah. yeah. and i think what happens is that the wall street people who put together these big donations and have these big fundraisers for the president. for instance, there was one here in new york a couple of weeks ago on the upper east side, $38,000 a couple. and when the president goes to

these things, i think he tells you, look, i want to help you out. i got a little problem. so the rhetoric, i'm going to have to turn it up outside in public. >> he doesn't mean it. give me your cash, and i'll protect you. >> the disparity, though, i think between the two contributions in that story. i think that goes away once it comes down to one candidate. >> exactly. >> once it comes down to one candidate, i just don't see wall street doubling up on president obama. >> no, you're absolutely right. >> i think they go to the republicans. >> they're holding their fire. there's all these candidates, you wait until it sorts itself out. number one, and number two, there's so much money on wall street. all you need is three or four guys and you can collect a ton of money from them. hundreds of thousands of dollars pretty easily subject to campaign contribution laws. let's move on, there's another story -- >> do you really think he's saying give me your cash and i'll protect you and there's a transaction like that happening? or do you think it's a little more complicated and both sides are embroiled in a very

difficult situation? >> i've seen how this works before. >> exactly. >> give us -- pull the curtain down. >> i've seen it behind closed doors all the time where people go out and yell in the house or senate floor attacking somebody and then come back and they go to the fundraiser and laugh it off. >> okay. >> and really, it's just like they're at a golf game going, hey, i had to do it. but listen, you know when the time comes and mike's seen the dark arts of it too when a congressman, senator, or president will say i can't help you because it'll be bad for my profile, but i've got a friend who can help you. how many times does that happen? we won't name any names, have you had people go to a powerful liberal or conservative who will take the money and say thanks. i can't help you, but my friend on the other side of the aisle will help you and i'll keep everybody out of the way. yes, that's what's happening. if you're president obama and you've received more money than

any politician in u.s. history from wall street, and then you attack wall street and then you receive more money than all the other republicans combined, let me tell you why. if wall street didn't think that this guy was in the end going to protect them, they wouldn't be giving him the cash. >> thank you so much for explaining that to me. i think it's also important to point out -- >> hold on. i've got to stop you there. it sounds like you're being sarcastic. >> i'm skeptical -- >> you worked in a newsroom for 22 years, i actually would defer to you on issues what goes on inside the newsroom. i suggest you defer to me on how this works when people raise money in washington. >> i absolutely was deferring to you. >> no, you're being sarcastic. if that's your only device to excuse the president for being flush in wall street cash, but while -- oh, they're bad people, give me your money. come on.

>> i'll try this one more time. >> what you just described is precisely why those people are in the streets. the game is rigged. you're pounding a podium in public and not just the president, by the way, politicians. you're saying one thing in public and taking their money -- >> okay. >> how tough is financial reform? >> and howard schultz of starbucks -- >> this president has passed the steepest financial reforms than any president has. they may be -- they absolutely are not enough. but let's keep that in mind when you look at past politicians and future ones and what they have done to take on wall street. this president's done more. can you argue with that? >> i certainly can, but it makes me tired. it really does. it's a laughable proposition to suggest anything other than the fact this president's talking out of both sides of his mouth. i hate to always go back to this standard, but if george w. bush were criticizing wall street and

then took in more money from wall street than all democratic candidates -- >> not just wall street -- >> -- combined. oh, my lord, they would be going crazy. willie, can i get an amen over there? >> i'll give you an amen. >> there's no doubt about it. and i've got to give "the washington post" credit, the "new york times" tried to whitewash it this weekend. which surprised me about the times, i didn't say anything. but "the times," they're smart enough to know. they were trying to run cover for the president. i don't really know why. that was -- >> i'm not -- >> an unfortunate blind spot. >> i think the prquid pro quo i really depressing and why we're at where we are for an extent. but let's keep it in perspective in terms of what this president has done. >> the president has surrounded

himself -- >> does anybody want to argue with that? >> if the president was going to take wall street on, you know what he would've done? he would've listened to paul volcker, he would've brought paul volcker close to him in early 2009 instead of keeping him locked out of the door, instead of keeping the same wall street guys around him that caused -- caused the entire system to melt down. and you know the names. he took all of the wall street guys, made him his top advisers, and kept paul volcker, the one independent-minded guy outside of the room. ask paul volcker, he'll tell you how serious the president was about financial -- he was pn't. which is fine! if he wants to take all that cash in buckets. that's fine, i don't fault him, do what you want to do. but please, don't come here and be sanctimonious about it.

>> you might want to add that to your politico column. write that down. >> is baker with one or two "ks?" >> any time you can use the bakers, use them. it still works. let's go into those polls. >> okay. well, this is actually very interesting, especially given this ad that was pulled last night. a recent poll shows that mitt romney leading the gop field with 30% support among likely republican voters. herman cain is in second place with 26% followed by rick perry with 13%. despite the polling, romney is focusing his attention on rick perry. after their feuding during tuesday night's debate, romney campaign spokespeople released this ad on youtube. >> was it before he was before the social programs from the standpoint of he was -- >> do or die for him. >> it's not whether or not we're going to have this policy or that policy --

>> we don't need any plan. >> perry really did throw up all over himself on the debate. >> but the fact is, americans understand faith -- >> rick perry plunging in the polls, rolling the dice. >> he would just calm down. he seemed very agitated. >> however, the romney camp removed that ad. >> you can do that with any political candidate. >> do it with anybody. >> you could do it with us. >> you could have done it with romney. >> although he did throw up all over himself. >> gyou could do it with romney. i still thought he was fabulous during that debate. >> i agree. >> thank you! i was sitting here thinking i'm on mars or maybe i'm too much ambien. >> or both. >> nobody agreed. >> i'm with you. >> you thought romney did great? >> yeah. >> he was like the incredible hulk pushing everyone off. >> i don't know i would go that far. >> oh, my gosh. he was great. >> that poll, by the way, was after the debate.

>> i'm sure it was before. >> before? because people talk about perry getting a little bit of a bump -- >> i thought he did, barnicle, what everyone was waiting for with him. does he have it? can he get his hands dirty? >> you know, it's funny listening yesterday, listening on the radio when i'm in the car to "morning joe." >> of course. you know 30 million people do it worldwide. >> i understand -- >> across the globe. go ahead. >> i began wondering, listening to all of the punditry, whatever it's called today. do the pundits all watch the debate together? >> yeah. >> because if you watch the debate as i watched the debate with some young people, a mixture of people. >> yeah. >> they almost universally had the same reaction that mika and i did. romney really pushed him around. romney did a great job. >> that's not what you read? >> you didn't read it. >> they said that perry came out and beat him up, right?

>> what? >> no, that's what you read about. that was the analysis of the debate. they called him a bully. >> called perry a bully. >> there was an ann coulter tweet during the debate. >> there you go. >> where she said that romney won this, but basically the media's not going to say it because they want a horse race. and she called it. which is she said they're going to want to elevate perry and make this thing a fight. but she said it and i don't quite agree with it yet, it's over. mitt romney's going to win this nomination. but he is clearly head and shoulders above everybody else. >> exactly. i can't believe i'm saying that. i know, you and me, i totally agree. in the polls too. >> you were not alone yesterday. >> are you sure? >> yeah. >> it wore off. it happens. before we get to break, a new study by the tax policy

center has broken down herman cain's 9-9-9 plan and the news is not good for the majority of americans. >> what about people making over $200,000. >> this is why my republican friends keep texting me saying they love. they keep texting me this. i don't get it. according to the study's calculations, most americans would receive significant tax increases while a tax cut would go to americans making more than $200,000 annually. individuals making over $1 million would pay 174% smaller share of federal taxes than they do now, herman cain has also been criticized for the comments he made earlier in the week in which he seemingly said he would negotiate with terrorists to save the life of an american soldier. >> but you know, he also said he was going to electrocute illegal immigrants -- >> that was a joke. >> all right.

he's since walked back on both of those comments. he said he misspoke. last night on cnn he was asked if american leaders in afghanistan should continue to negotiate and pay taliban leaders if that meant winning the war on terror. >> if the commanders on the ground told me that was a tactic that they saw was beneficial, i would approve of it. >> theal p ban terrorists, you think? >> yes, the taliban are terrorists. >> so if you negotiate with them in any capacity, aren't you negotiating -- >> yes, but some of the people that are doing some of these things, there are citizens they are converting to basically be on our side. it's not always negotiating with the terrorists, it's negotiating with someone who may be sympathetic to the taliban. >> you know, you've got to give him credit. he seriously is on -- i saw this old movie on tv before where , p you know, the circus kept losing

people that kept falling off the high wire. >> wow, good call. >> they hire another guy and said, let me guess, you want in? he says no. this guy is walking on a tight rope -- >> net-free. >> net-free, and he's doing interviews with i think everybody that asks despite the fact he's woefully ill-equipped. you've got to respect him for having the guts to do that. >> he has a good personal story. >> apparently he's on friday. >> we have him on friday? >> yeah. >> oh, good. >> he was asked about -- wasn't he asked about gay marriage last night too? on cnn? >> he's not a fan. >> yeah. show -- >> can we cue that? alex, do you have that? >> interesting thing about -- >> roll that. i didn't see that. >> i respect their right to make

that choice. you don't see me bashing them or anything like that. i respect their right to make that choice. i don't have to agree with it. that's all i'm saying. >> it would be like a gay person saying, herman, you made a choice to be black. >> we know that's not the case. you know i was born black. >> maybe if they said -- you would find it offensive. >> this doesn't wash off. i hate to burst your bubble. >> i don't think it washes off. >> yeah. i think there might be a lot of gay and lesbian people that would take offense at the suggestion it was a choice. >> and non gay and lesbian people, i might point out. >> exactly, willie. you sound like herman. >> wow. that was just some interesting -- >> he just goes out. >> you're right. no net. >> no net. >> no net. >> there's no net, but he still does it. so yesterday outside, we had

the ron paul people. >> oh, yeah. accusing -- >> they were very nice. >> they're very nice people. >> yeah, they had signs, what were they accusing you of? >> they were accusing the media of blacking out ron paul. >> oh. >> which leads to a very fascinating question. guys, can you throw up the poll really quickly and see where ron paul is? mike, why is it that ron paul, i guess, is steady in most polls, 10%, 11%, 12%, he's in fourth place, down at 8%, but they will complain to people like michele bauchmann, newt gingrich, others who don't raise as much money as ron paul get more attention than ron paul. why is that? >> why does ron paul receive less attention? >> less attention. >> because everyone in america with the exception of 8% to 11% of his most fervent followers, and they will always be with him. everyone else knows he is never going to be president of the united states. >> why do you say that? >> take a peek at him.

take a peek at what he says. he's a smart guy, he's a good guy, he is so far out of the mainstream. this is a mainstream country. this is a middle of the road country. it's not going to happen for ron paul. >> everyone knows herman cain's not going to be president, he's on the cover of "newsweek." everyone knows sarah palin won't be president. >> hasn't ron paul ran for a while? >> he's done it before. >> these people are new so there's a novelty to cain and bauchman. >> he's proven before he can't get above a certain threshold. >> what does it say about the republican field that he maintains a 24% to 26%? >> coming up next, we're going to asking that question to kevin mccarte thi. >> that's going to be great as always. also, i want to talk to andy about his steve jobs issue.

up next, the top stories in the politico playbook. i also want to talk to you about isaacson's book. which, boy, this is going to -- >> this is one hot cookie. >> this is going to be extraordinary. so we'll be talking about that too. first, though, a guy that -- >> not extraordinary. >> not extraordinary. in fact, the word's never been used in the same sentence except for, boy, bill was extraordinarily wrong about that weather forecast. >> there you go. >> here's bill karins. i'm joking, bill. >> no, i'm here to follow you guys to make you guys look good, right? >> so it's really going to be 85 and sunny in the northeast today? >> whatever you want, joe. >> that's what i want. >> whatever you want. that's the magic words. we're not going to get that warm. but it is going to be a mild day today. it's a mild morning in areas of the east. the rain is coming down and the winds are howling from chicago to detroit to cleveland all the way down through the midwest. that's where the worst of the weather is this morning.

as we go throughout the day, it'll slowly begin to improve. forecast today, we'll call it 68. if we're lucky, we'll get sunshine as the day goes on. showers are more likely up in northern new england in the day. and it's a chilly morning in the midwest. only going to warm it up to 55 today in kansas city. much of the country is looking pretty nice with the exception of the great lakes. and as we head into this upcoming weekend, joe's going to like that forecast. those details are coming up. looking at washington, d.c. little erie there. we're brewed by starbucks. i'm not a number. i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day.

♪

with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster: smartphones, laptops, tablets, mobile hotspots. but not all 4g is created equal. among the major carriers, only verizon's 4g network is 100% lte, the gold standard of wireless technology. and while other carriers may have limited lte coverage, verizon is the largest lte network in america and ever-growing. with verizon 4g lte, you can invent new ways to upgrade your business using real-time group meetings from remote locations,

video conferencing, mobile credit-card payments, lightning-fast downloads, and access to thousands of business apps. plus, verizon has the largest selection of 4g lte devices and the most 4g lte coverage for your business. all on america's fastest, most reliable 4g network. no wonder more businesses choose verizon wireless than any other wireless carrier. verizon. i think the las vegas crowd was a lot easier to please than the crowds in the previous debates. take a look. >> what is the dumbest idea that you have?

>> we are replacing the current tax code with oranges. >> nice. >> can you say something that lets me know that you're with it? >> this is one night when i hope what happens in vegas doesn't stay in vegas. >> from the commercial? >> yes, do you think there are any real issues with magnets? >> i think there's a very real issue with magnets in this country. and i think the issue that you're referring to is the issue of anchor babies. >> you see, that's what i've been saying. >> oh, my goodness. 27 past the hour. let's take a look now at the morning papers. the "new york times," protesters clashing with police in athens over austerity measures. the nationwide strike continues today as parliament is expected to vote on the plan. what are they supposed to do?

what are they supposed to do? >> they need to cut spending. >> willie? >> san francisco chronicle, a formal memorial service held in coopertino, california, for steve jobs. for three hours, every apple store was closed for customers so employees could watch a live video stream of that service. and we'll be talking to andy in just a minute. more about his piece in "fortune" on steve jobs. now to our parade of papers. "the sacramento bee" as sacramento's birth weight tumbled last year according to new state figures. it's yet another indication that the economy is reshaping every day life. "the star ledger" of new jersey says the occupy wall street movement has become new york city's newest tourist destination. double-decker buses now regularly drive past the park in lower manhattan allowing passengers to take photos of that crowd. >> look who we have here. >> yep. >> hello. >> good morning.

>> msnbc contributor, what else? >> that's about it. >> and looking good. >> well, i have been on -- since our dance-a-thon. >> we danced all over the set. >> we got down. >> that's right. >> also joining us from down in the d.c. area, jim. good morning. >> good morning. >> so rick perry kind of drew mitt romney out finally in that vegas debate on tuesday. looked like part of a plan, was it? >> it's sort of the art of the cheap shot. it really -- he knew he needed to rattle romney and needed to do something to get momentum. he went ahead on a question that wasn't about immigration and went at him with something that romney didn't expect. one of the things he wanted to accomplish was he wanted a lot of coverage of that incident and of that story that surfaced in

2007. and mission accomplished. there were tons of stories throughout the last 24 hours about that exchange. it was mentioned on the evening newscast. it's been on almost every cable segment. and you can expect it'll be coming to a television ad in the not too distant future. they think that romney's vulnerable on this. they think the issue was not aired in 2007. and they think they want to go for the jugular. >> what do you think, jim? will that issue stick? one of the things that stood out was mitt romney saying i said at the time, i can't have illegals, i'm running for office. as if to say the only reason i can't hire illegals is because i'm running for office. is that going to haunt him? >> i think if you look at the specific incident, the idea that he should know who is on sort of the staff of a lawn care company that's doing work in his yard. most people would say that's a little bit of a stretch. but what perry's doing and he did this a lot in texas, he'll take something that's a weakness of his. and immigration has been a weakness for him in this debate and the republican field and

he'll try to go after someone else to at least muddy the water and neutralize that issue. that's what he's trying to do on immigration. they think it's an effective attack. and the last time around in the 2008 campaign, rudy giuliani staff considered going after romney on this very issue. but they felt they were too vulnerable on immigration themselves to do it. but they felt their polling and their strategists thought, you know what? it could be effective. i think it's one of the reasons perry's doing that. they think it could be effective. >> and jim, you have a story up about how the field is handling herman cain. what to do with the guy who is sitting pretty much even right now with mitt romney in national polls anyway. >> and clearly haven't figured it out. because in the beginning, everyone attacked the 9-9-9 plan, but then throughout the rest of the debate, they all embrace him, partly because he's that likable guy, partly because the tea party considers him one of their own. and they don't know what to do with him. nobody wants to go at him directly beyond the 9-9-9 plan, and clearly he has a lot of

vulnerabilities. and if they're happy, let's be his ally, his friend on stage until they can determine whether or not he has real staying power in this campaign. >> jonathan, what do you make of his campaign? everyone laughs at him in the press, but he sits right there right next to mitt romney. >> everyone laughs at him in the press because he has a tax plan that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. he says things like he's said on cnn yesterday like being black doesn't wash off. but yet, apparently, mr. cain, i woke up this morning and decided hey, i'll be gay. >> that doesn't wash off? >> no, that doesn't wash off. please, do that. i think herman cain, his days are numbered, it's just a matter of when that day comes. chuck todd reported this earlier this week that the problem that herman cain has is while he's enjoying great poll numbers right now, he hasn't been to new hampshire or iowa since august. he has no ground game. so great, you're winning the

public opinion polls, but when the real poll happens, when people go and cast a ballot, he's sunk. >> can we go back to talking about perry and romney for a second? because there's an interesting story in the "new york times" about how these guys have hated each other for a long time. and so i thought that was pretty interesting that you thought this was just some political theater going on at the debate the other night, but it's been going on for some time. >> jim vandehei. thanks. game one of the world series between the cards and rangers in st. louis, highlights when we come back. plus, michele bauchmann gets some, perhaps, unwanted love, aggressive love from wayne newton ahead in "news you can't use." wow. the markets never stop moving. of course, neither do i. solution: td ameritrade mobile.

i can enter trades. on the run. even futures and forex. complex options? done. the market shifts... i get an alert. thank you. live streaming audio. advanced charts. look at that. all right here. wherever "here" happens to be. mobile trading from td ameritrade. number one in online equity trades. trade commission-free for 30 days, plus get up to $500 when you open an account. [ female announcer ] starbucks via® is planted the same... ♪ ...harvested the same... ♪ ...and roasted the same as our other premium coffees. ♪ it only makes sense it would taste the same. so, try it for yourself. buy a pack of 100% natural starbucks via® ready brew. we promise you'll love it or we'll send you a bag of starbucks coffee. it's the starbucks via® taste promise. look for it at starbucks stores and where you buy groceries. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d.

and tastes simply delicious. for those of us with lactose intolerance... lactaid® milk. the original 100% lactose-free milk. sweet & salty nut bars... they're made from whole roasted nuts and dipped in creamy peanut butter, making your craving for a sweet & salty bar irresistible, by nature valley. for a sweet & salty bar irresistible, so to save some money, i trained mathis team of guinea pigs to brrow this tiny boat.

guinea pig: row...row. they generate electricity, which lets me surf the web all day. guinea pig: row...row. took me 6 months to train each one, 8 months to get the guinea pig: row...row. little chubby one to yell row! guinea pig: row...row. that's kind of strange. guinea pig: row...row. such a simple word... row. anncr: there's an easier way to save. get online. go to geico.com. get a quote. 15 minutes could save you anncr: there's an easier way to save. get online.

time for some sports in game one of the world series between the rangers and cardinals last night in st. louis. the two teams almost complete strangers to one another. believe it or not, a three-game series in 2004 the only other time the teams have ever met under any circumstances. cardinals had their ace chris carpenter on the mound. watch this in the first inning. you're a cardinal fan, you don't want to see this. carpenter diving, records the

out, but just sneaks his right hand, the pitching hand out of the way before elders can step on it. he escapes, though, with his right hand. moving ahead in the game. scoreless in the fourth, runners on second and third. bloops went out there, couple run score, cardinals out to an early 2-0 lead. rangers respond, mike napoli goes the other way. the only two runs carpenter gave up. pitched six innings striking out four. bottom of the sixth, runners on the corners, tony la russa has alex come in to pitch on a 1-2 count. craig hits a line drive. looks like he had it for a second, but couldn't come up with the ball. cardinals grab a 3-2 lead right there. and tony la russa showed why he's one of the best in the game. in the seventh and eighth, la russa burning through his bullpen, changing pitchers four times and it worked out. cardinals hold the rangers at

bay into the ninth inning. beltre with one out, he appears to hit a grounder off his foot. beltre argues the call saying it should have been ruled foul because it nicked his foot. take a look at it, see what you think. it did look like it's got his foot. next batter, nelson cruz pops out to left center. cardinals take game one, 3-2 on the right arm of chris carpenter and that bullpen. game two in st. louis tonight. texas governor, rick perry, by the way, and missouri governor have a friendly bet in this world series. perry put up texas barbecue and dr. pepper from his side. and nixon ravioli, frozen custard, and a six-pack of budweiser. >> they could go bigger on these deals. put up some cash. up next, the new cover of

"fortune" magazine talking about steve jobs. we'll be right back. yesterday doesn't win.

big doesn't win. titles corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins. the world's most dynamic companies know what wins in business today. maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory.

sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing? sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial.

all right, 43 past the hour. we're going to take a look this segment at the cover and the entire issue of "fortune" magazine. >> well, the cover of the magazine is steve jobs, which is the biggest business story of our time. and it's an excerpt from the amazing new biography of steve jobs that's going to come out on monday. i have read part of the book, i have the excerpt in the magazine, that's the part that i've read. and it's an amazingly moving story about steve jobs, his relationship with bill gates, his arch nemesis really.

kind of a parallel universe relationship. they start off as friends, both born in the same year, both computer savants who dropped out of college. they were friendly, then had a major falling out. and then they reconciled at steve's death bed really. it's an amazing story. >> without giving too much away. what new information does walter bring to light? we know walter had to rush it a little bit. he visited steve jobs and realized he didn't have much time left. what did we learn new about steve jobs that we didn't know? >> you know, willie, this might sound silly, but the entire book is -- i mean, everything in it's new. all the details of how steve runs the company, his relationship with his friends, his family. how the company works. it's all new. it's gonna be something that everyone's going to read. i talk to the people about the book. young people, teenagers, people my age, old people, people in

china. i think it's going to be like a harry potter kind of book. so many people e to read it. >> there was something about his story that is so right for the times right now. it's inspiration we need, this country needs. >> he's an american icon, and then the tragedy of him dying so young, it's just really amazing. >> the excerpts of this book are embargoed or we would share. >> it's actually like an apple product release. >> it is. >> they're actually doing it like that, which is more power to them. >> i get that. i thought it was important to point out, though. usually around this time we're reading full screens and sharing, but we actually -- >> locked up. >> monday. >> by the way -- >> even to me, andy. >> right, i know that. and to willie geist? >> we have walter on the show on monday. >> oh, you do? >> thursday next week. so let's get to the list then. >> this is also in the issue, the 40 hottest business people in the world. 40 hottest business people in

the world under 40 years of age. >> wow. >> and there's amazing people here. these are sort of the superstars that you're going to be working for if you don't already. i don't know if we can count them down. number five -- >> we can go -- are we going to go five? >> john arnold, 37 years old. number four aditya mittal works for the giant steel company that "morning joe" has a mother that works for that company. greg jensen, co-ceo of bridgewater associates. and number two, larry page, 38 years old, ceo -- >> come on, man. >> he's only 38? >> he's 38? >> $17 billion, and number one, not a surprise, but you'll be surprised at how mark zuckerberg only 27 years old. >> stop it. >> facebook's worth $50 billion,

he owns 12% of it. that's $12 billion fortune. facebook has 800 million users and still growing. it's just an amazing story. started in 2004. it seems like facebook's been around forever. but you know, less than ten years old. >> 27, how is that possible? that's an incredible story. >> i think he's smarter than us, i don't know. >> number eight, jack dorsey, the co-founder of twitter. that was one of those things a few years ago, i don't know if it's going to be around long enough, but now it's hard to imagine life without twitter. >> he's very entrepreneurial, got another company called square, which is a mobile payment company. another interesting guy on the list, i think, willie, is kevin plank who is 39, still made the list, the founder of underarmour, he was a football walk-on at the university of maryland selling shirts out of the trunked of his car. and the great part about this story is, you know, it's in baltimore. he's kept his business there and created thousands of jobs in the

city of baltimore. right? how amazing, and how wonderful is that? >> who is going to be the person who's further down the list who is going to rocket up the next time you do a list like this? >> well, it's hard to see anyone supplanting mark zuckerberg for a while. >> because he is only 12. >> he could hold on to that for 13 years. >> ryan seacrest is on the list. >> he's amazing. >> erin burnett. >> she's great. >> yeah. >> and you also, i noticed someone else, david rhodes. >> david rhodes. isn't he a tv producer? >> yes, he is! that's very cool. >> over at cbs. >> let's see. oh, charles from donors choose. >> blake makowsky. >> i love lists. this is very cool. >> spotify. >> a 28-year-old swedish guy, he's someone -- that company is really amazing. it's really rewriting the music

industry again. if steve jobs and itunes redid it once, spotify and pandora companies are changing it again. >> another great issue. thanks very much, andy. willie's news you can't use is next. we'll be right back. hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices? sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process

so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. some vehicles sacrifice luxury to improve fuel efficiency. but the jeep grand cherokee uses advanced technology. like the quadra-lift air suspension that lowers the vehicle at highway speeds to improve aerodynamics and deliver a more than 540 mile driving range. so you can raise your standards while lowering your fuel consumption. ♪ i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about

cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪ executor of efficiency. you can spot an amateur from a mile away... while going shoeless and metal-free in seconds. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work.

[ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro.

oh, yes. it's so time. >> time for news you can't use. >> hold on. >> you want to let him do it? >> yeah. >> oh, man. >> here we go. t.j., you ready? >> ready, t.j.? >> oh, yes, willie, is it time? >> it is, indeed, jonathan. it is time for the news you can't use. last week we showed you a clip of herman cain talking about world leaders he doesn't care about. >> i'm ready for the gotcha questions, and they're already starting to come. and when they ask me who the president of ubecky-stan-stan,

and i'll say, i don't know, do you know? >> secretary of state hillary clinton sitting with president hamid karzai when karzai brought up that quote. >> one of the republican candidates, i think it was herman cain -- >> herman cain, yes. >> former pizza company executive. >> is he that? >> yes, he started something called godfather's pizza. the president was saying he saw this news clip about how mr. cain said i don't even know the presidents of all these countries, you know, like whatever -- >> stans. >> places. >> that wasn't right. but anyway. >> well, it is such a beautiful day here in kabul. >> such a beautiful day here in kabul. >> she is delicious. >> that's the best. >> didn't karzai say that wasn't

right? >> that wasn't right. >> oh, no you didn't. >> seriously, richard hoss was right. >> he said what do they think of us? what do they think of us? that's what they think of us. >> well, they think better with hillary clinton sitting there. >> thank god. >> i promise you that. do you have stories about wayne newton? >> yes, i do. >> he's so attractive. >> if you're watching the debate two nights ago in las vegas. you saw great cut aways of wayne newton in the front row with those bleach white teeth. >> whose teeth are whiter? >> you don't mess with wayne newton. >> i don't know. >> so anyway, he came out after the debate and said he was completely taken with michele bauchmann. so much so that when she was appearing on fox news after the debate, wayne newton joined in. watch this. >> wayne newton, tell me -- this is -- it looks like you're on a

date. so tell me, where did you find wayne newton? >> i will support this beautiful lady as long as she wants to go. >> what do you -- >> that's pretty good, don't you think, greta? >> that's pretty hot. that's pretty good. thank you to both. and good luck to both of you. >> thank you, greta. >> thank you for allowing me this. >> thank you. thank you. >> oh, my lord. >> that's an aggressive kiss from wayne newton. >> aggressive. i would be careful around michele bauchmann. she's probably got a left hook. wow. >> boom. got some. >> a little bit harder and she would've had a head injury. that was some contact. >> you know what the real shame of all this is, snl is off this week. >> did i call this a reality show or what? this is such a reality show. >> you nailed it. i have to say. up next, house majority whip

kevin mccarthy in the studio. >> he's going to actually sing some songs from "american idol" when we return. coffee doesn't have vitamins... unless you want it to.

new splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweetener with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism. three smart new ways to sweeten. same great taste. new splenda® essentials™. the world needs more energy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world. enough power for a city the size of singapore for 50 years. what's it going to do to the planet? natural gas is the cleanest conventional fuel there is. we've got to be smart about this. it's a smart way to go. ♪ [ gnome ] awwwwwwww. i just feel bloody awful. she told tiffany, stephanie, jenny and becky that she was coming to a place like this!

but somebody didn't book with travelocity, with 24/7 customer support to help move them to the pool daddy promised! look at me, i'm swimming! ♪ [ gnome ] somebody, get her a pony! [ female announcer ] the travelocity guarantee. if your booking's not right, we'll help make it right, right away. from the price to the room to the trip you'll never roam alone. this is an example of mixing apples and oranges. the state tax is an apple. we are replacing the current tax code with oranges.

>> herman, are you saying that state sales tax will also go away? >> no, that's an apple. we're replacing a bunch of oranges. >> okay. will the people in nevada not have to pay nevada sales tax and in addition pay the 9% tax. >> you're still going to pay that. that's apples and oranges. >> and i'm going to be getting a bushel basket with apples and oranges in it because people in nevada don't want to pay both taxes. >> hey, herman cain, you like apples? because you just got wicked schooled by the former governor of massachusetts, how do you like them [ bleep ] apples? >> he did get schooled. >> that's how i see it. welcome back to "morning joe." jonathan is still with us. >> hey, herman cain, you like apples? >> joining the table, house majority whip kevin mccarthy. good to have you back. >> do you like apples? >> love apples. >> do you like oranges? >> love oranges. >> do you --

>> we pay apples, oranges, grapes, we pay a little of everything. >> you obviously don't like cain's plan to have the federal government get in the business of -- >> no. think about it, when the tax code came to, it was only going to go to 10%, it was at 77 by five years. the national sales tax, not a good idea. but credit for putting a plan out. give him credit for at least putting a plan out. >> i can put a plan out too that would give people like tapeworms. >> how many people running for office don't put anything out? >> most. >> the u.s. senate has had 900 days, they never put a budget out. >> boy, you really got us. i've got to say, i would rather have nothing than have a national sales tax -- >> well, i would too. >> if you're going to have an income tax and a national sales tax. >> but it won't make it. when someone's running for office, have them put ideas out. >> i'm not going to have you sit here and try to defend all of the stupid statements that republican candidates have made. >> good.

>> that being said. does it help the republican brand if you have a leader who's asked about a foreign country and says i don't know who the leader of u-becky-becky-stan-stan is? that's not helpful to the cause, is it? >> i don't think overall. but he's answering a question, do we have a leader yet, no? we're in the process of getting a leader. so i think it's healthy for republicans that we continue to have these debates. >> i think whoever becomes the nominee has to win it on the policy of the nature of what they're going to do. >> is herman cain qualified to be president? >> i think the last time we elected somebody to be president hadn't been elected before was eisenhower and eisenhower had won a war. the odds are against a little historically of him getting there. is he qualified to run? yes. is he qualified to be in the debate? yes, he is. >> let's go to news. >> okay. i'm going to do that. >> are you doing okay?

do you need me to do this? >> i like you very much, so i'm going to move on. >> what are you talking about? >> looking to sympathize -- you don't want me to answer that. occupy wall street protesters, the "washington post" is reporting this campaign tactic has yet -- according to the paper, the president's personal campaign fundraising combined with the money raised by the democratic national committee much to the dismay of joe brought in far more money from wall street donors than all of the republican presidential candidates combined. a "new york times" report earlier this week said romney had gotten more from the financial sector. however, that report focused on the personal campaign cash leaving out the dnc money which will aid him in his reelection effort. the fundraising data showed the president received more cash than romney from bain capital. the president collected over $76,000 from bain to romney's

$34,000. the post analysis says his key advantage is his ability to collect bigger checks through the dnc. >> jonathan, it may be surprising to some americans out there that the president tries to play populist while he's taking the biggest bankers money in the world. and here's the "washington post" story. but this is really nothing new. i've laughed for years when i've heard commentators say, oh, wall street is run by republicans in washington, d.c. when the fact of the matter is, wall street has -- at least over the past 10 to 15 years, they've -- those bankers have always preferred -- for cultural reasons, to give big cash to people like bill clinton, al gore, john kerry. and barack obama. >> well, bill clinton, al gore, barack obama, all incumbents in one way or another. wall street, the money goes

where the power is. and i think in the early -- >> barack obama, though, in 2008 got more money than any candidate in u.s. history. >> because -- >> he was far from being an incumbent. >> also, folks on wall street, though, they're gamblers, literally, and put their money where they thought it was going to win. and what's happening here, you discussed in the last hour, you have wall street giving both to the president -- >> i've got to stop you here. >> i've got to stop you there, jonathan, you're mixing up your apples and oranges. in 2000, george w. bush was probably the safe bet. they didn't bet on him. they didn't like him. more gave to al gore than bush. in 2004, bush was the incumbent. in 2008, barack obama, he was a glorified state senator. wall street piled cash their way. wall street bankers for the most part are democrats. they just -- again, for cultural reasons. it's just like -- there is

this -- no, it is true. there's this just ongoing, it's not the case. may en, listen, republicans will take cash from wall street, as much cash as they can get. don't get me wrong, but democratic presidents usually do better. >> there's also an ongoing media narrative that wall street is just up in arms and deeply offended by the elements of the dodd/frank bill. i don't think that's true. i think wall street is most concerned with the same thing that many americans are concerned with, and that is the state of the housing market in this country. that unless you take care of the housing market, the mortgage mess, nothing else is going to move in this country. now, why do wall street guys give money to president obama at the expense of mitt romney and the republicans according to the washington post report today? lack of opportunity thus far. i think they will absolutely double up. >> you don't think they're going to? >> i think they will double up

on the republican candidate. >> there is, though, a cultural disconnect between wall street and people like sarah palin. >> absolutely. >> people like george w. bush. wall street and other. because the republican party over the past quarter century has been a southern-based party. guys on wall street just -- and women don't relate to the tom delays and the newt gingriches and the people who have run the republican party. so i think that also explains why they don't give -- >> are you focusing your angle here on wall street and their behavior? >> no, no, no -- >> because -- because -- come on. >> i'm not focusing on the hypocrisy of the white house to be going out there playing populist while they've taken more cash from wall street over the past four years, let me say it again, than any politician in american history. in fact, nobody's even close to barack obama. >> but i would counter that this president has been tougher p on

wall street than any other during his campaign. he warned about express risk, he took them on verbally and through action. look at the consumer protection group. look at what happened to elizabeth warren. look at what the republicans did to get in the way -- >> what the republicans did. it was barack obama that told elizabeth warren that she wasn't going to be able to run. because he had too many friends on wall street. >> oh, please. that is so -- that is the republicans who were blocking her. so if you're talking about people who are cozying up to wall street, it was not barack obama. >> it's hard to be in the minority and be accused of blocking things if you control all. i think the thing is the president may use this for political gain. and i think the president needs to find out he's president to all americans. the thing that makes me most concerned overall is normally in divided government, we do big things. i mean, when ronald reagan was president, he had tip o'neill as speaker and he reformed the tax code. when clinton was president, he

had joe scarborough in the house and newt gingrich, and what did he do? he had a surplus and reformed welfare. this president feels he has to divide the nation to win an election. >> i think the same would be said about the republicans. >> there's one huge difference i would submit, congressman, between the examples you just spelled out and today. when ronald reagan was president and george mitchell was the senate majority leader and tip o'neill for the early part of the reagan year was speaker of the house, not one of the leaders stood on the floor of the senate or the house and said our number one job is to defeat the president of the united states. not take care of my job. not to take care of peoples' jobs, but to become president. >> mitch mcconnell has been in the minority the entire time. he was not in the minority. and you laid out a case where the democrat was in the majority. the republicans in the house are in the majority. and you can't lay out a case that anybody said that.

mitch mcconnell's a republican and he's in the minority. so hep can can't achieve that. you laid out a case that mitchell was the leader in the majority. i'm sorry, it's apples to oranges. >> you did not just say that. >> jonathan -- >> i'm sorry. >> go for it, jonathan. >> congressman mccarthy, you have an entire party whether in the majority or minority on capitol hill whose sole job it was, has been, and will continue to be until november 2012 to block the president from doing anything he possibly could want to do. >> really? >> the jobs bill, health care -- one second, i'm sorry. this president -- around this table, the president was criticized for not reaching out to republicans, for not trying to work with republicans, for not trying to be the president for all america. and when he tries to do it and the republicans say no. >> where did we say no?

because in the senate, the democrats are the one who said no to the jobs bill. his job bill just got introduced. the leaders of his own party did not endorse it until last week when they got harassed by the press. >> and i'm talking about the last three years. i'm talking about the last three years. >> well, we've only been in the majority for the last 11 months. >> i'm talking about republicans and democrats -- republicans and the president trying to -- or the president trying to work with republicans to do something that's right and best for the country, and the republicans blocking him every single step of the way. >> i'm just starting my third term. my experience has not been the case. i've watched us invite the president into our conference from the moment he's got elected. i watched our own leader eric cantor when he wanted to do stimulus gave him our ideas. and you know what he said to eric cantor, elections have consequences, and you didn't win. i watched every action internally. did we shut down the government? no, we sat and worked with this president. did we look at where we agreed?

we just passed free trade, three of them last time. >> i'm sorry, congressman, that doesn't wash. and to the eric cantor example. let's talk about that. remember seeing the tape vividly. they're having an argument about taxes -- >> should they not have a debate about taxes? >> and the president has his view, congressman cantor had his view. and when both sides have a disagreement, the president ultimately said, you know what, eric, i won. elections have consequences. i'm sorry, if you're presented with one plan or another plan and you're president of the united states, your job is to make a decision. are you saying that the president is only right if he does what republicans want to do? >> never said that. >> let's talk about this jobs bill. the president has complained, and i think news organizations have confirmed it. there are a lot of things in the president's jobs bill the republicans have supported in the past. why can't we chop this jobs bill

up like the president's talking about doing and have the republicans in the house, the democrats in the senate go along with these good ideas that republicans have supported in the past? >> you know, it seems that there's a disconnect from what i see happening in the house. >> i'm not trying to put you on the defense -- just wouldn't that be a good signal to send to americans? >> but that's what we have done. the president in the beginning said you have to pass it all whole or nothing else. well, the democrats in the senate killed it. now the president said you can break it up. john boehner said from the beginning, i'm going to look at it, and we're going to run through the process like we always do -- >> so -- >> what's the first part we just passed? free trade agreements, we passed. he talked about jobs plans for veterans. we've already had a bill that's gone through. we've got 13 different jobs bills sitting over in the senate. we're more than willing to look -- >> that's great. what's another part of the president's jobs bill you would like to see broken up, brought to the house floor, and passed

by the republican congress? >> well, i'd like to see some tax reform. >> is that in the president's jobs bill? >> i don't see it in the jobs bill. >> i'm asking specifically what's contained in the president's jobs bill. what's another example. because, listen, americans want to see congress and the president working together. that is the reality. >> he does have some smaller versions of some actions that are about small business that we are taking up in financial services just next week. and one, a bill exactly what the president's talking about. i have one in the focus of where he is where you go back and look at some of this regulation, back to 1933 that should change from the standpoint -- >> and the president will support that, as well. >> yeah, he talks about it. >> i want to just play something for you because the president is out campaigning as well as pushing the jobs bill, and the vice president is, as well. he warned what would happen if it's not passed and it could put public safety at risk.

>> police departments, as i said in some cases literally cut in half like camden, new jersey, and flint, michigan. in many cities, the result has been -- and it's not unique, murder rates are up, robberies are up. the consequences of these losses are real and they're now. but the interesting thing is, i've said this is simple. and i say to the press, this is very, very simple, man. there's a solution, we can do something about it right now. it's not rocket science. >> do you want to respond? there's a response from the republican national committee that said in part to link well-justified bipartisan opposition to the president's latest stimulus proposal to violent crime is intellectually dishonest. is that true? >> well, i think he's using politics to try to get something through. it doesn't solve the problem long-term. one thing you can look at. you have liberman very concerned about. if we want to solve the

long-term problem, stop trying to stay short-term. did we not just do this in the stimulus? and are we not back where we are before? >> some would argue we didn't do enough. >> $1 trillion wasn't enough? >> well, look at us. >> we spent $278,000 for every job that went through. >> we should be cutting a lot right now? we should just cut, cut? >> i think we should grow this economy. >> okay. >> how do we do that? how do we get america back to work? >> more cutting. >> boy, you sure are hostile. >> i'm sorry. >> just let him answer the question. >> first, let's go to yours. you're concerned about cutting. discretionary spending has gone up 84% under this president. how many small business -- and what economy are we in? we just spent $1 trillion with interest, and what did you get for that? $270,000 per job. so if you're concerned about -- >> i think the argument would be -- >> hold on a second. stop. stop. so you're telling me that in the

stimulus package, which was, by the way, the biggest spending bill in u.s. history, you're telling me for every job that was created in that stimulus package, that cost american taxpayers what? >> $278,000. >> $278,000. and what's that source? what's the source of that? >> i'd have to get it right back to, but when it came out just at the end of last year. more people believe elvis is alive than the stimulus created jobs. you can take whatever factor -- >> how do we move forward? >> we don't get out of this problem just by cutting. you have to grow the pie. if we're concerned, we've got $2 trillion sitting on the sidelines right now because of uncertainty. so end the uncertainty. if you want to compete, we're going to compete globally. i'd reform the tax system so we can be competitive. i'd look at small business, not corporations that's going to create america. if you go back to the end of the last recession to the beginning of this one. 2001 to 2007 where people would say that was a good time in america. what jobs were created?

if you had a company that had 500 employees or sooner, you had 7 million jobs in this country. if you were a company with 500 employees or more, you cut 1 million jobs. then look at the start-ups, we're at our lowest point in 16 years. small business is where jobs are created. you had something on for the magazine. the number one person, age 27, i was with zuckerberg a couple of weeks ago. where did his business start? in a dorm room. when did it start? 2004. how many employees does he have today? where did steve jobs start? in a garage. let's focus on what creates jobs. focus on the small business of where it's going to go. unshackle where we are. i would take it from an american approach and i would say if we're going to compete with the world, let's look at every single country we can compete with and give us a level playing field. >> all right. we have to go to break, but i have so much to say about that response. you make some good points. >> it's great points. >> i would say we would be in far worse situation -- >> than to just borrow more

money? >> you know, i think we are painting a picture of what this president has done and trying to blame everything on the past two years when it's really the past two administrations. bush and clinton building up to where we were -- where we are now. and it's not going to be a quick fix. >> it's not. so you've got to look long-term. don't think if you borrow $35 billion, you're going to save the problem. >> and i think kevin would agree, republicans did a lousy job during the bush administration. >> i ran against republicans in '06 and democrats. >> exactly. and big part one of the reasons that republicans ran, did such a horrible job in the past is because of a guy who is right behind you that works right now. >> i can't wait -- >> no, seriously, it's all tim's fault, and we thank you for -- >> tim's going to tell us. >> you were there too. >> fighting you guys! that is true. >> congressman kevin mccarthy, thank you. >> thank you, again. >> thank you, tim. >> i'm sorry about this. she's just in a bad mood. >> is he apologizing for me?

>> some people can't be soft spoken like me. when austin comes up next, i'll be gentle as a lamb. >> austin, thank god you're here. coming up, sebastian junger will be here. [ wind howling ]

[ technician ] are you busy? management just sent over these new technical manuals. they need you to translate them into portuguese. by tomorrow. [ male announcer ] ducati knows it's better for xerox to manage their global publications. so they can focus on building amazing bikes. with xerox, you're ready for real business.

hey, welcome back to "morning joe." with us now, professor of economics at the university of chicago's school of business, and former chairman to the white house council of economic advisers, austan goolsbee. i want you to be as tough with the professor as you are with kevin mccarthy. ready, set -- oh, he's good. so that's it. so i'm going to have to play bad cop on this one? >> yeah, i'm a little -- kevin lost me on herman cain. i gave him a by. >> i love you, austan.

and as you know, i'm a uniter, not a divider. i'm just not. let me ask you this, obviously you heard a shocking number. $278,000 to create each job in the stimulus package. first of all, have you heard a number like that before? secondly, even if that's the case, was it important for that stimulus package to be passed? >> well, i'd say two things. first, that number's not correct. anybody who wants to evaluate what the stimulus did, i'd refer them to the council of economic advisers every quarter by law is required to put out a document that says what do we know? and it estimates that and it gets all the private sector estimates of what the impact was. usually the people citing a number like $278,000 are making a pretty basic math error in which the stimulus was spread out over three years and they're taking one years of the jobs and

dividing it to three years of numbers. >> obviously the stimulus package is going to be front and center in next year's campaign. democrats are going to -- >> you think? >> i think so. with jobs. >> yeah. >> and so republicans, whoever the republican nominee is going to be saying barack obama and joe biden promised us nothing higher than 8% if we passed this stimulus package, we passed it, and everything's gotten worse. what is the answer to that? >> i'd say a couple of things. >> you've got to prove something that's hard to prove. that the company had fallen off a cliff. >> i agree with that. >> that's a difficult argument to make. >> i would say the first thing is. in fairness to christy romer who made that 18% prediction, that was before we were even in office. that was in the transition, and in the same prediction they said that if you did nothing, the unemployment rate would go as high as 8.9%, and it was already before that before the first dollar of the recovery act went

out the door. so i think blaming the 8% on the recovery act is a little confused. now, i'll be the first to say that the conditions when the president takes office where we now know the gdp's shrinking at a 9% rate and it's the worst six months that we have data on in the 64 years we've been keeping data, at a moment like that, the private sector's in freefall. i don't think there was any alternative but government directed trying to avoid the depression. now we're in a bit of a different circumstance. so you saw representative mccarthy talking about small business, talking about money on the sidelines. i think now both in the president's jobs bill and in just our minds if we're thinking what should we be doing? let's find what bipartisan stuff there is to get the private sector to be driving the recovery. that's what we should do. >> and to move the ball forward. so what is -- obviously you hear the criticism from the right.

that the stimulus package was too big. it wasn't -- what about the criticism from the left? now that you're out of the white house, what do you say to the paul krugmans and other progressives who suggest the stimulus package failed because it was too small and didn't have a grand vision? >> i think at that time, the tension of the grand vision is you couldn't get enough money out the door quickly enough if it was all just about one thing. in addition, it came down to one vote. so for the people saying we've got something important -- >> yeah, we've got breaking news. we had gotten an e-mail from a friend that -- >> in the arab media. >> the arab media reporting this morning that gadhafi has been arrested. now one international wire. >> and we're going to see how this goes. but at this point, it appears to be developing. moammar gadhafi captured and wounded in both legs.

this is according to the national transitional council officials. he's been taken away by ambulance, and that's all we have so far. >> when we get more information on this, it's fine, we actually saw this report in arab media a while ago. reuteres now confirming it. >> you said you were on "the daily show" in august. >> that's great! >> a great performance. you said in jest -- i'm going to read the quote back to you. there are a number of people in washington whose tray tables are not in full upright and locked positions. >> oh, that's great. >> i stand by that. >> a funny line, but it does -- a funny line, but it does speak to some of the frustration i'm sure you've felt when you arrived in washington. did you change from the time you arrived to the time you've left your impression of how much you sitting in the white house could actually do to change the direction of the economy? >> yeah, probably a little bit.

i think there was at the time we come in -- i mean it's an awful, awful moment. we're losing 800,000 jobs a month and the economy's in a tough spot. there was a debate and continues to be now of can we come back quickly from this? or if we can't go back to housing construction and consumer spending because those were bubbles and we've got to shift to exports and business investment and that's going to take some time. if we've got people with their mortgages needing to deleverage and reduce their amount of debt and that's going to take some time, how long will it take? and what are the policies we've got to do? and i think it has proved a longer, tougher ride than we thought at that time. >> so were there things you would've done differently now that you're a couple years out? >> i think in the original recovery act because we didn't know is this going to be short or long, it had some of all of

that. it had some infrastructure, had some short run things. if you look at the cash for clunkers or first home buyer tax credit. they were geared to try to shift it from 2010 into 2009. given it's taken this long, i don't think you would do that short stuff. >> just for clarity, when the administration came in and did the stimulus, however big it was, too big, too small, how much was the economy shrinking then? when folks were -- >> it was at minus 9%. at the time we thought it was around minus 3.5%. and it wasn't just us -- >> minus 3.5%. >> which would be pretty bad, but minus 9% is worse. >> and we found out minus 9% -- >> just this year. last year it got revised to minus 6%. >> and that's why the stimulus, when people say, the stimulus doesn't work, where are the jobs? >> i think it's mainly the baseline.

>> is that how they say it when they say that? they bob their head. >> mainly what happened was the baseline was a lot worse than anybody thought. it wasn't the impact of the recovery act. but look, joe, here's the thing. i kind of don't agree with you that it's all going to be about the recovery act because that's three years ago. >> about jobs. >> i think fundamentally what the country's got to develop is a growth strategy. if we're not growing for the people who think that the deficit is crucially important. if we're growing at 1%, like we have been so far this year because of the oil prices, because of europe, we'll never get the deficit down below $1 trillion. tax revenue will come in at record lows. spending on unemployment insurance, on a bunch of automatic stabilizers will remain at record highs. we've got to grow. and look, i think the free trade agreements is a good start, but we've got to start making the shift to exports, investment,

prudence, consumption, not faster than income growth. and i don't see if we -- personally, i don't see how if we go in and say, look, if we save money, let's yank the financial aid two months into the school year. to me, that doesn't save money. i don't understand it. >> somehow cutting education, cutting infrastructure, cutting r & d. >> it's not a good idea. that doesn't save money. >> here's the problem, though. you're talking about a town where a lot of people don't have their trays in the upright position. >> right. >> how do you in that sort of environment, which you could tell us right now just how dysfunctional it is. how do you create a long-term growth strategy that just doesn't focus on the next quarter? >> on the next quarter. >> or the next year. >> i don't totally know. i wasn't a legislative strategist. my grandpa used to have the thing that 80% of the world doesn't even care about your problems. >> right. >> and the other 20% are glad.

and you get to washington -- >> you -- >> that's the circumstance. >> we've got to move forward. >> i agree. >> how do we do it? >> i -- it feels to me like, look, let's find those things. if the president's jobs bill is unacceptable as a whole, what are the parts of it that are bipartisan? let's do those parts. the free trade agreement is a good start to putting the focus on exports. but the moment has shifted. three years ago we're in freefall and the government was all there was left to prevent a depression. and i think even though it's hard to explain in an election, i do think historians will look back and say that's an achievement. >> couldn't that happen again next year? >> i hope not, but europe -- it's a whole separate -- they are in a really bad position. >> let's just tell the truth right here. it is very possible that europe goes down, that some of the governments go down. it creates shock waves that are

going to cause the united states government -- >> we're going to have to -- >> to have to make a decision again on whether we bailout one or two super banks in america. that could be coming. >> maybe. let's certainly hope not, but europe's in a tough spot. they're certainly not going to be growing. they'll have a tough recession in europe. and that'll be another hurdle we'll have to jump over here. that's going to hurt our exports because there won't be people there to buy as much. but i think fundamentally, we've got to put the focus on getting the private sector to stand up and lead the recovery. now, we're growing, but at a moderate rate that's not enough to get the unemployment rate down. >> you would disagree with the harry reid, the senate majority leader quoted as saying the private sector's doing fine, we need to focus on growth in the public sector. >> i guess i would disagree a little. i don't think at this moment,

the government still has an important role to play. it's to get the private sector going. and we can do that with tax cuts and incentives. we can do that focus on infrastructure, on education. these are the things -- that's the only sustainable growth that we're going to get. and that's where i am. >> austan goolsbee. >> mika just sort of sat back and let you talk. >> i think he's simply adorable. >> she was attacking -- >> you want to see an attack, let's roll the kevin mccarthy tape. we're following breaking news here, which the state department cannot confirm yet, this. we're hearing now from reuters, but also bbc online, they've captured former libyan leader moammar gadhafi. apparently he's been wounded in two legs. there's also a report that the head of his armed forces has been killed and that gadhafi himself is an ambulance being rushed to a hospital. we will monitor this and bring

you more details as they become available. we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] when kate collects her pink yoplait lids she's supporting breast cancer programs for her neighbour's tennis instructor's daughter's 1st grade teacher who's also her mom. help fund breast cancer programs in your community. redeem your lids today [ cellphone rings ] cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things. and i don't have to worry about a late fee. which is good... no! bigger! bigger! [ monica ] ...because i don't think we're going anywhere for a while. [ male announcer ] write your story with the new citi simplicity card. no late fees. no penalty rate. no worries. get started at citisimplicity.com. no late fees. no penalty rate. no worries. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪

♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ [ inner voice ] establish connection. give me voice control. applications up. check my email and text messages. hands in position. airbags. ten of 'em. perfect. add blind spot monitor. 43 mpg, nice. dependability. yeah. activate dog. a bigger dog. [ male announcer ] introducing the reinvented 2012 toyota camry. it's ready. are you? ♪

it's ready. are you? fresher less processed foods introducing freshpet recipes so fresh the only preservative we use is the fridge freshpet fresh food for fido

we're following some breaking news here that right now cannot be confirmed by the u.s. state department. but reuters is reporting as well as the bbc online that libyan leader -- the transitional authorities in libya say they have captured former libyan

leader moammar gadhafi. apparently he's been wounded in both legs and is being taken away by ambulance. there's also word that transitional forces claimed control of sirte, colonel gadhafi's birthplace. and that's where most of the forces loyal to him were holding out. gadhafi, of course, came into power in libya back in 1969. there's also reports that one of his top deputies has been killed in this. so we'll find out more as it develops. we have two sources so far reporting this story. >> when we came in earlier this morning, we saw reports on the wires that sirte had fallen. and it was sort of the alamo for gadhafi, the last place he had any measure of support remaining. so you started to wonder if he would be found there. and it sounds, according to some reports he has been. >> so the latest word right now is that moammar gadhafi has been wounded and is in custody with transitional forces. >> so and i can only assume that

"times" editor, stingel who is part of the raid because he's not here today. >> where is rick? >> i think he's in s.e.a.l. team eight. >> great cover. >> reads "the china bubble." we're counting on china's bubble to save the world unless the economy blows up first. this is actually a follow-up on a "new york times" article and a "morning joe" segment where where we had ken on about a month or two ago. i was just thinking, been thinking for some time that what china's doing is great. but it reminds me of what i heard in 1997, 1998 when people would come back from southeast asia. and they would say, they've got cranes going up everywhere. there were predictions that 8 of the top 10 economies in the next 20 years would be from the pacific rim.

what happened? they overbuilt. they were seen as the future. and then you had the bust. and three, four, five years later, the cranes were still there, but they weren't moving. china is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on infrastructure, but despite the fact they've got a centralized state that allows them to do that, the bottom line is they don't have the consumers to drive that economy. so when does it bust? >> another interesting angle is their economy grows the worker wages grow up, which is their advantage to taking jobs from here and other parts of the world. when i was in tennessee over the weekend reading the newspaper, there was a battery company there whose ceo had brought all of the jobs back from china and put them back into the state of tennessee because the wages in china essentially have become competitive with the united states. as their economy grows and the bubble continues to inflate, it helps us. >> they also have another issue they're going to have to contend

with, and i assume from talking with people who know far more about china than we do, which is everyone. another issue they'll have to contend with as their economic expansion continues to explode and the literally billions of people in china are exposed to the nuances and improvements that a growing economy brings. with the internet and everything like that. they are going to see things that are available to us that we take for granted. refrigerators, air-conditioners, and they're going to say, i want that, why don't we have that? and that's going to affect the structure of the communist government. >> no doubt. mika. >> let's go to our breaking news again. toppled after 42 years in power. there are reports this morning that are not confirmed yet by the state department that former libyan leader moammar gadhafi has been wounded and has been captured. and a top deputy potentially killed. we've got pictures here from sirte, libya, which is the last stronghold of gadhafi where there is rejoicing going on in

the street. >> let's go to david right now. david -- what does this mean? >> reporter: well, you know, three thoughts occur to me just in the first take. the first is obviously this allows the revolution to complete its mission. see the symbol of what resistance remained. that's good. you worry about freelancers, about kind of disintegrating morale and discipline. the second is that if he's taken wounded, that means there's going to be a trial. and trials are complicated in these new societies. because they can be polarizing. so this new -- the transition, people will have to think carefully about how to try him. the third thing that occurs to me, i'm remembering the day saddam hussein was taken out of a rabbit hole in a similar situation. what we saw was the visions, the bad times in iraq were ahead.

i remember the triumphant feeling, we got saddam. and that couldn't have been more wrong in terms of the temper of what was ahead. i would note that as a caution as we look back. >> i think that's a great point, david. especially as we look at what's happening on the streets right now in sirte, libya. the jubilation and celebration going on. i wonder what you can tell us about the transitional forces. the strength of the transitional forces and exactly what potentially might happen in the coming hours or weeks or days given this event. >> the transitional forces are a lot better and more coherent than they were three months ago. three months ago the people i talked to were generally worried about their organization. they became a much better fighting force. but in the moments like this, you see the kind of spontaneous chaos that is part of life in a revolutionary society. if that gets out of hand, we'll have a situation like what we had in baghdad in which there was looting, fear, and which the

middle class intellectuals who could help a country move forward were doctors, lawyers, people who make things run got panicked and they fled iraq. if that happens in libya. if those people panic and begin to flee the country, things are too disorderly, you'll have a very unfortunate story, and the occupying powers, including us, won't be able to really be able to cope with it. >> six months ago, many of us were talking about these opponents of gadhafi as possible al qaeda members, muslim extremis extremists. what are your sources telling you about who actually is going to be running the new libya? >> joe, my sources would say two things. first, it is clear that within the ranks of this libyan army of revolution that came out of benghazi, there are people who have had contacts and perhaps more with al qaeda in the past or with one of the al qaeda

offshoots that was operative in libya. so that worries people. i'd say secondly, that what has encouraged them is the ability of the leadership of this transitional national council command to identify those people and to take appropriate steps to make sure the infection isn't getting out of control. but the hard part for that comes from victory. once you succeed, then these people are going to try to borrow into government, there's a thought this new government has pretty competent security people within it. and a lot of advice from the security services, especially in britain and france. but will that advice be enough to help them mobilize? tough to answer. >> david, it's willie geist. i don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves yet. we haven't confirmed this news yet. but if they have, in fact, captured moammar gadhafi, what does it say about president

obama and his foreign policy? he will, after all, be able to say he killed osama bin laden and was part of an effort -- leading an effort, in fact, that captured moammar gadhafi. >> reporter: this is going to be shocking to "morning joe" regulars, but i'm going to speak up in favor of the president's policy. he got it about right. he understood that we had to help in the beginning, but we ought to take a secondary role to the europeans and let them conduct the bulk of the ground campaign. i think that sort of, you know, policy in the second row, which was referred to early on in libya as leading from behind. it turned out not to be a bad idea because it didn't have the u.s. in the headlines for a change. and the most important thing, he was patient. in the summer, and it's easy to forget now, in the summer when they were just sort of stopped and the country looked like it was heading toward a partition that was enormous agitation. this policy has got to be changed. oh, my gosh, people tearing

their hair out. and president obama, as he is, remained calm. and said, no, we're going to stick with what we've got. we've got confidence that over time gadhafi runs out of cash, his situation becomes harder. in that case he was right. if he opted for a radical change to be proposed, that would have been a mistake. in this case keeping the cool was the right thing to do. >> it certainly was a nice change to have them come out and ask for action and have our european allies that had pushed back so hard actually pulling us into this. we said here, david, i think in some instances the president proved to be right in this. in some instances, leading from behind just may be a pretty dam good policy moving forward for a country that seems to be expanding war into more countries by the week. >> caller: joe, you said it

right. we've been talking about burden sharing for 20 or 30 years with europe, sharing the burden of defense cost and we finally did it. and guess what, it actually seems to have worked. >> david ignatius, thank you so much for joining us on the phone. former lib january leader has been khaddafy has been cre on t. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution,

comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. look better and feel softer. how 'bout we start with the guaranteed low price on the carpet... the pad, and installation. let's get peace of mind for a lifetime. it all adds up to better carpet at a better price and a great-looking room transformed. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get 10% off or 18 months special financing on carpet purchases of $450 or more when you use your home depot credit card. since ameriprise financial was founded back in 1894, they've been committed to putting clients first. helping generations through tough times. good times. never taking a bailout. there when you need them. helping millions of americans over the centuries. the strength of a global financial leader.

the heart of a one-to-one relationship. together for your future. ♪ [ female announcer ] starbucks via® is planted the same... ♪ ...harvested the same... ♪ ...and roasted the same as our other premium coffees. ♪ it only makes sense it would taste the same. so, try it for yourself. buy a pack of 100% natural starbucks via® ready brew. we promise you'll love it or we'll send you a bag of starbucks coffee. it's the starbucks via® taste promise. look for it at starbucks stores and where you buy groceries.

breaking news we're following right now. one source only. we're still working with the state department on confirming this. we're still getting contributing information from bbc online. but reuters is reporting that moamar khaddafy has died due to wounds. we have some information from the bbc describing the situation that went down in sirte. it aparentally goes like this. he was captured were seriously wounded but still breathing. a soldier who captured him told the bbc that the colonel was shouting don't shoot. they shot aparentally. one of his top deputies may have been killed as well. we're following this all. working on getting multiple choices. joining us now we have sebast n

sebastian. >> this the all near and dear to you. you believe your friend was shot and killed. what are your thoughts? >> it was very confusing when they were killed so i don't know if they were targeted. certainly there was a disregard for civilian life and they were civilians. you know, i think this is -- khaddafy was an awful ruler and he killed a lot of people, often intentionally and i think this is a very good step for the world and for libya. i hope they form a country that holds together. >> tell us about libya and khaddafy. >> i've never been to libya. i was supposed to go with tim and i couldn't. that was one of the heart breaks of that story for me was that i was supposed to be with him and i wasn't there. i'm going in a few weeks. >> the discussion we just had

with david ignatius was very interesting. he was talking about the events that transpired after the fall of sadam. and new the precariousness of this event which many will be very jubilant. it is also a transitional time whether the timing will be right to build forward. >> one of the big question marks over this operation from the president's crikricritics and a foreign policy who is going to follow khaddafy. who are they throwing their lot in. early on we were flying blind. we made the determination that whoever it was would be better than moamar khaddafy.

it appears, judging by what david ignatius said, washington post, that they are weeding out the more radical elements and a lot of people are feeling good about the government that may be replacing khaddafy's. >> interesting. there are comments coming in from world leaders. most of them are based on the fact that khaddafy is still alive. the president of the russia says libya should decide his fate. >> i think they did. sort of like the navy seal that decided the fate of osama bin ladin. >> yes. there is word now that khaddafy has died. we are working to confirm that. joining us on the phone we have the president of the council on foreign relation, richard haas. richard, first of all i don't know if you are hearing anymore information.

in f so, please share it. >> caller: i'm basically hearing the same things you are. >> what are your biggest concerns about the hours to come in libya? >> caller: first of all, we're going to want to know exactly how things happened. if you remember the way sadam hussein, the trial, the execution did not go as well. it inflamed secretary passions. what we want to do is find out what happened, how khaddafy was treated and so forth because again, this so-called dead enders, it is possible that his loyalist low pressure continue to exist and than can't be good for the future of libya. and even beyond that, i don't know what the cliche is, the beginning of the end or the end of the beagaining. >> exactly. >> when you get rid of the old regime, that's a necessary box to check. but it's simpilaply a box and n

you still have the enormous multi-year effort to try to knit together a country where essentially there was no national institution. there was nothing that was truly right. >> if you're just waking up, just turning on the tv set, there are reports from the bbc, also from reuters, arab media outlets have been reporting it for a few hours now. moamar khaddafy has been shot and captured. there is one report coming from reuters. it is only sourced once that moamar khaddafy has been killed. we have richard haas with us along with sebastian younger, willie geiss. we are going to have many more people coming over the next hour to discuss this matter. that said, if the reuters report is true, richard haas, david

ignatius suggested that a trial would be a very difficult thing to pull off. could it be that maybe it will be an easier road in libya just like it may be an easier road moving forward for the united states if enemy number one was killed instead of captured? >> caller: the phrase i would probably use is less difficult, pat. i don't think there is any easier path no matter what happened to khaddafy. you would be right, a trial would be difficult to manage. there would be all sorts of questions of fairness. the longer it went on it would be not reck silluation but there would be all sorts of accusations that would be thrown about. i take your point. but again, i still think the larger issue here is regardless of what happened to khaddafy, i wouldn't assume that

khaddafyism, so to speak, is gone. the big question in all these countries is nation building to use the loaded phrase. even if we're not going to do it, the real question is whether they can do it. >> richard, one important element we haven't discussed yet with regard to the fate of khaddafy, is that in iraq, american soldiers captured sadam hussein. in libya it was an aggrieved collection of people who captured cad doff. whether they killed him or not, any trial that would go forward, given our small footprint in libya, that has to have a huge impact on what happens in the future in this country. we don't want to get actively involved in their country, do we? >> caller: first, i think you make a really important point.

this is something libyans did for themselves. it has kind of a cleansing effect. they carried it out by th themselves. i always thought it was a mistake of american troops pulling down the statue. i think you make a good boent on that. >> sebastian, let's talk about events that have happened in the past year in arab, across north africa, across the middle east. you have been following this story for a decade. it's hard to get your arms around this, suspect it? >> yeah. it's incredible and of course it's comply kaeted and new in that part of the world. it contains elements. it's also some incredibly inspiring elements.

i guess i would say our country has to avoid the idea that there is a stark contrast of either backing dictators or chaos. there is some middle ground. i think when you phrase the choices like that, enevery ta bli we would go for dictatorship which is horrible but at least predictable. >> and we have. >> and we have. and the result was 9/11. it's hard to look at 9/11 and say oh, well that worked. i think by engaging with these countries, even in this chaotic stage, we at least get a vote in the outcome. at least we are putting money and influence into these countries saying okay, if you want democracy, this is how you do it. if we pretend it is not happening, it is going to happen anyway and we have no influence whatsoever. >> we want to bring in nbc's

chief correspondent. what can you tell us. >> they are saying look, this guy has survived six months of an intensive air strike campaign and has eluded capture all this long so they are reluctant to come to any conclusions at this point. they cannot absolutely confirm reports that he has been captured, but according to one senior official it's looking good. there is enough information to indicate this is likely but until they probably have eyes on his body there was not going to confirm. >> we have to hold on for one minute. more breaking news from reuters. >> again, reuters that he has died of his wounds suffered from his capture near his hometown of sirte. >> the confirmation comes from a senior in military officials.

>> that's the national transsessional council official who said he tried to flee in a convoy which nato planes were attacking. khaddafy was also hit in his head. there was a lot of firing and he died in that attack. >> what is the united states, j jim, what is our foot present right now in libya and when we say that he was being attacked by nato war planes, is that predominantly u.s. war planes? >> no, actually not. there are u.s. war planes and some drones that are involved in those air strikes. but the u.s. involvement over the past four months or so has been reduced to minimum actually. so, this kind of detail that's being reported now lends itself to some credibility that this in fact may be true. and in terms of boots on the ground, there are about a dozen u.s. military that are working

with the embassy in tripoli. that's it in terms of military. but there have been cia involved for some time trying to figure out who's in charge. according to officials, it is not clear they can confirm this. but as one senior official told us a short time ago, it's looking good and this preponderance of reports seem to lead to this fact. although khaddafy has not been in command of any military resistance for a couple months at least, this would be a huge victory for not only the people in libya but certainly the national transitional council. >> i think a lot of people were surprised that after the fall of triply that khaddafy lasted this long. what can you tell us about the last couple weeks about the pursuit of moamar khaddafy, if

you believe the reports this morning captured in his hometown of sirte, his final stronghold. >> well all the reports saying that he had taken ref fuj in his hometown seirte. finally today, i guess it was about six, seven hours ago, the rebl forces were able to drive out and overrun the last of the libyan military resistance khaddafy forces who were supporting him. so, apparently if these reports from reuters are true, khaddafy realizing he could no longer have a safe haven there in sirte, took flight. it's interesting because nato all along in the u.s. said we are not targeting khaddafy. but if this was a motorcade

fleeing, that belies the claims by both nato and the u.s. has many have sort of been a wink and said all along that ultimately khaddafy has to be driven from power faen not killed, captured. >> what do you hear inside the pentagon about what our footprint is going to be in libya moving forward? >> they still insist that the u.s. military will not be that actively involved and may involve just that handful of advisers there on the ground. they're looking more toward the british and the french who really were the drivers behind this combined nato military operation against libya. now, state department is going to send about -- right now they have about 14 people as we understand it, on the ground in libya. and we'll spend about $40 million trying to track down some of those 20,000 missing shoulder fired missiles that

could take down a civilian aircraft very easily that were part of khaddafy's arsenal that in the confusion and the chaos of the war simply went missing. that's a major concern not only to the u.s. but all the gulf state nations. and since some of them had apparently turned up in the senai on the way to gaza, perhaps it has raised serious concerns. that's about the only kind of direct military style, although there will be private contractors trying to hunt down these weapons. military style ha the u.s. is involved in on the ground in libya. >> richard haas, let's go back to richard for a minute. richard, it is so fascinating we began this war on terror september 11, 2001. if you look at the map and you just start coloring in the countries where the united states is p droing bombs, bombs

where we haven't declared war, pakistan, somalia, yemen and now uganda. we have really seen a second phase in the international war on terror where u.s. presence has me tasty sized across the globe. >> in some ways it was inevitab inevitable. it has been a quote, unquote global war. i think we're also seeing an interesting wreng l here, joe. iraq and afghanistan are not the templates for the future. that's a scale that is simply unsustainable. you and i might say they were on wires from the beginning. but going forward it is going to be much more intelligence oriented orient ed operations rather than classic military on raegss. but it is as you say, might be

yemen and might be libya down the road if the new crowd cannot make sure libyan territory is not used by that terrorist organization. >> sebastian younger, they just eluded to the fact that they are finally tracking down 20,000 shoulder fired megs sills capable of taking down an airliner. you have been to afghanistan. we've had iraq. now libya. the amount of weapons on the international scales, the international arms market is just overwhelmingly dangerous. >> yeah. first of all i would want to look back and see which of those weapons were sold to khaddafy by western arms manufacturers just for startering. if we're part of that problem we need to examine it. also libya is a much more modernized country. again, i would repeat that our

engagement with that cause buys a lot of good will. libyan rebl fighters were waving the american flag at some points. >> with us now -- finish your thought. >> yeah. please finish your thought. that is so critical you haven't seen the burning of american flags were transference burning of israeli flags. didn't see it in egypt. but as you said in libya, a remarkable scene, the waving of the american flag. >> yeah. extraordinary. you saw remember berebls waving the american flag. >> if you want to fight terrorism that way or with 100,000 troops troops, which a going to peck. i think we'll have real partners on the ground trying to track them. >> sorry to interrupt.

we're trying to get from our producer np joining us live in libya just outside khaddafy's hometown of sirte where we were showing you video of jubilation and celebration in the streets and people firing guns into the air. i say that because we also have word from senior obama administration officials saying they are still working to confirm the reports of khaddafy's death or capture. adrien, what are you hearing? >> we haven't been able to confirm officially those reports, but all the people we have been talking to and all the vehicles that have been driving past say khaddafy has been captured preponderance of the evidence we spoke to a couple men who say they were part of the team that brought hem out and put him in an ambulance. one man describe him as having a lot of wounds to his head and body. he was quite bloody. it is not clear what condition

he was in. >> now the report we see online said he was shot in the head. there was actually an alter kaegs between transsessional forces and khaddafy which was fleeing sert after nato was following him as well so he was in the middle of fleeing the city. are you hearing anything about khaddafy and his last deputies trying to get out of town? >> reporter: yes. there were many conflicting reports. at first we heard there was a convoy of 100 vehicles trying to drive out of town. then later we heard it was a handful. seems is unlikely there was a large convoy trying to get out because last night when we spoke to one of the commanders they say they had the town closed off. the fourth side of course would be the ocean. >> thank you very much,

mong. i think in the officiinitial ho there is going to be a lot of concern about the stability of sirte. >> no doubt. let's go back to the pentagon. i loved what younger ce eer sai the value, well, let's just say it, leading from behind. being seen as contributors to the cause which can lead to the waving of american flags. while the president has been land blasted by te right for his approach to libya, what has been the attitude inside the pentagon over the past six months or so?

>> quite frankly top military leaders and the ground pounders themselves are pretty happy at the way this went, that the u.s. military did not have to contribute large numbers of forces and/or actually aircraft or ships in this operation. and from the get-go they tried to put as much responsibility on nato as they possibly could even though it was a u.s. military commander that are essentially for most of the operation oversaw the entire on raegs. and, quite frankly, the u.s. military is really still pretty much stretched thin by both the wars in iraq and afghanistan despite the drastic draw down in iraq. so, i think for the most part u.s. mill tear officials are pleased with the way this went down. if they are going to start these

wars, that they contribute as much as possible. but in the end i think everybody's pleased with the way this eventually went down even though it went on much longer than the weeks, not months that president obama had first predicted. >> well, it may surprise americans out there. many times it is the generals who are most skeptical of the military forces. there are a lot of famous enzenss of colop powell trying to tell one politician after another that you can't just use soldiers like toys and move them across the globe. so, i suspect that there were many generals in support of the president's approach. let's bring in chief correspondent richard engle.

you spent so much time there that i thought you should get a condo. >> luckily not bunking with khaddafy. >> actually you know this war very well. what are your thoughts? >> still trying to get a clear answer on what exactly happened. there are conflicting reports that he was either killed in sirte in fighting between rebls and khaddafy loyalist. there are sources saying that khaddafy this morning in that fighting was killed. there are just as many reports, however that say that as khaddafy was trying to leave sirte in a convoy heading east that he was injured and that he was injured in the leg and in the hand. we are hoping to get some more clarity in about an hour. a senior libyan official is going to give a press conference with the prime minister and hopefully his statements will carry some definitive answers to

them. >> all right. we have a comment from the chief spokesman of the revolutionary national transsessional council saying that the associated press reports that khaddafy has been captured in his hometown are still unconfirmed. now, this is conflicting the reuters report so we have to be really careful. clearly, though, the pictures we're looking at, richard, come on. >> the rebels celebrate a lot. >> that's a good point. >> that ban is already being flagrantly violated. people in sirte are celebrating, not all of them however. khaddafy does have some loyalist in sirte and there are deep concerns that as the loyalist take over and move through -- as the rebels move through and take over all the rest of sirte there could be some acts of retribution. what's perhaps most interesting of this, again, if all of it gets contermed that he was

either captured in sirte or killed while trying to escape sirte or killed in sirte in some kind of fighting. it's interesting that khaddafy returned to sirte in any case temperature sirte is khaddafy's hometown. when i first heard that this morning i immediately thought of hussein. he was the president of iraq for decades. when he went on the run he also returned to his home area and felt some degree of security there. it didn't work out for him and perhaps didn't work out for khaddafy either. >> richard, it's willie. when tripoli fell a few months ago, khaddafy lasted two months and even went back to the place where a lot of people suspected he would be. how did he prove so elusive to nato? >> i didn't think he had gone back to sirte. i was speculating that he was somewhere else in the desert

moving with tribes. there were a lot of other people thinking he was with nomads somewhere deep in the sahara. i thought it surprising that he would go back to sirte. if these reports are true and this person who was either killed or injured turns out to be khaddafy, then it is very interesting that he went back to sirte. the reason he might have felt a little bit of comfort there although i think it was clearly a poor decision to go into a surrounded city, but the reason he might have felt some comfort there is because there are strong family allegiance and the people were afraid. they were afraid that the remember berebels were going to come in and kill them. so they were fighting for khaddafy but also because they thought they would be wiped out if the rebels came in. so he had a group, apparently

not a very big group but a group he thought he could rely on. >> we're fortunate this morning to have both you and rich ard engle here and various reports that we've been getting that he's been captured, killed were wounded in the head or hand, whatever. if you could speak and if richard could speak after you about the other cay ys and confusion of war and how easily it is that we can get these conflicting reports seconds after another. >> well, yeah. there's two kinds of war in my experience. one where the u.s. forces are involved such as in afghanistan and that is pretty much organized. other civil wars i have been in are completely chaotic. people use information to survive. they get word that rebels are advancing in the city. it may not be true but they

would rather be safe than sorry so they flee. rumor becomes a real force in war because people are trying to guess what the best course of action is. things that are completely untrue could take off like wildfire. sounds like something very serious happened to moamar khaddafy. in general, in wars we all know rumors are hard to put out. they have huge consequences with the civilian population. essentially they are quite dangerous. >> richard you're now nearly qualified to vote in libya you've spent so much time there. >> well, communications have always been very difficult in libya. there is really one cell phone network that works. there are many dead spots in the country. while traveling it is very likely you won't have any kind of communications at all.

so it is not like we kwipt where people were on line or exchanging sms messages. this was a revolution where rebels were rolling along the desert roads and down from the mown and thes with vehicles packed with weapons. a lot of times it was very little koord naegs. we knew what was going on by what we could see. i was reporting that there was fighting in a particular area because i could see it. we didn't put a lot of stock in reports. this time it does seem so be much more specific and much more serious from khaddafy's perspective. the latest report is that khaddafy may have been injured, captured alive and is being

taken to the rebel city. again, it is just another tick in this information that's coming in. but no definitive confirmation and no photograph. >> richard, the obama administration has gone out of its way to remind people that this was not an american-led effort. from your experience how much is the american presence felt in the effort to catch moamar khaddafy when tripoli. >> it doesn't feel like any force at all. you didn't see the nato troops. you heard the planes in the sky and you saw the destroyed vehicles that were ploen up by nato aircraft. but it never felt like an occupation. the libyan rebels never felt leek they were being led or ordered around by nato. that had an enormous impact on

the fighting of moral in baghdad when the american troops came in. american troops did all the fighting. they were given a country on a plate and told, okay now, democracy is upon you. go forth and prosper. the first step they did was to loot the city and a year later civil war broke out. the libyans fought themselves. they did the fighting and the dying with help from nato. that has enormous weight. they feel proud. that never happened in iraq. i think that is because of this new model of war. it was never a were of occupation. it was a war of technology. the americans played a roll. nato at the end of the day is supported by the united states.

they didn't do the actual dropping of the bombs. for political reasons that was done by france and the uk. nato provided an enormous infrastructure that allowed nato to operate. >> at the end of the day we often hear about western governments humiliating arab governments in the so-called arab street. but again, in this case, that supporting role as richard engle talked about is far better than occupying 400,000 troops. >> absolutely. that would turn us into part of the problem. when the people in the country are begging for western intervention i think that's very different from the u.s. deciding what's good medicine for someone else and going in and imposing it. i was in liberia during the civil war. the crowds in the street were almost aggressive towards me because the u.s. was not

invading. i was literally getting accosted in the street, why isn't the u.s. helping us. so it really is a case by case thing to evaluate. >> when are you going back to libya? >> in december. shooting a documentary on hbo about my friend, his life and his work. >> going to be a new libya that you enter. good luck there. >> we are working still on confirming this story. along with the white house now saying they are working and confirming the death or injury of moamar khaddafy. the state department as well, still not on the record. but we're following the breaking news amid reports from the bbc and from reuters that transitional forces have claimed control of sirte which is

moamar's birthplace. there are unkconfirmed reports that khaddafy has been killed. other reports that he has been injured. important to note no official confirmation on this. we will follow this carefully and be right back with much more news on this. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

all right. we're talking about the death or injury of khaddafy. richard engle, you have new reports that may help confirm this. >> it may. senior commander says that khaddafy has been killed. that's one piece of information. the french news agency afp is also running a photograph. it's a cell phone photograph that appears to show khaddafy. i have seen the photograph. it looks like khaddafy but we can't tell in the photograph if this person in the photograph is injured or dead, but he looks very severely injured. at the very least covered in blood. it looks le s like khaddafy. >> we're getting a step closer to definitive word that at this point from the bbc and reuters that former libyan leader moamar

khaddafy has been captured by forces, potentially severely wounded and potentially kill preponderance of the evidence the u.s. state department will at this point not confirm this nor at the white house. they are working to get information to us as soon as possible. there is a press conference by a leader in libya. >> yeah. the libyan prime minister should be giving a press conference in about 45 minutes if it is on schedule. another piece of information, the spokesperson for the government, musa who lived in the hotel where all the journalist were held captive, there are reports as well that he has been captured. he has been giving mostly radio interviews to friendly local television stations the last several weeks. >> and, the backdrop to all this information, the pictures which we're looking at from sirte lib libya, there are shots being

fired in the air. >> richard, step back for the viewers, if you do will. you have been on the ground for a lpg time long time in afghani iraq. >> now in new york. >> talk about this past decade and how the united states may have finally figured out how to get things right in these type of transitions from dictator to democracy. >> well, this is a new war. the latest in 2003 was a massive deployment of american military power to topple the government and then try and build up a new one. then the war in afghanistan was a fairly similar model. had its own origins. they were defrifferent. >> in libya, the goals were much smaller. it was to provide some sort of

material support, intelligence support to the people on ground and to let them fight and let them form their own government. it was a much cheaper way, much faster. >> let me know if we have the correspondent still. >> the body of khaddafy being taken to a secret location. they're saying body. >> this is who? >> libyan rebels. >> reuters keeps quoting these ntc officials. how much credibility do you give this type of report based upon an ntc official? >> it is not the u.s. state department obviously. >> what's interesting about this one is it's from misrata. says body of khaddafy being

taken for security reasons. we have been told that people in sirte, again rebel leaders were reporting that the body or the injured khaddafy was being taken to misrapa. so the fact that this report is from there gives a little more credibility to it. i found the rebels to be earnest. but there was often a gap in communication. i always found them to be sincere. i didn't think they were deliberately trying to lie to me which i found in many times when i have been reporting. >> you found that in war and we found that in certain political cam panes. >> i don't think they are trying to mislead us which is not the case in a lot of confidents. >> let's go to the pentagon. jim, what are you hearing? >> so far intelligence officials again are being very cautious not to confirm. as we said earlier, one senior

u.s. official said that it's looking good that moamar khaddafy has at least been captured, if not killed. following up on what richard was talking about, it was the libyan people's war. >> okay. >> obviously it could not have been accomplished without the massive effort right at the front by the u.s. military, by nato forces. in the first 24 hours the u.s. launched some 170 crews missiles at targets. recently as a couple weeks ago unmanned drones were still launching some strikes against libyan military targets. so, the u.s. took a backseat as joe said earlier, leading from the back, but there was a very intensive effort by the u.s. military at the very front in support of the libyan people, not a u.s. war. the libyans war, that's true but with u.s. support.

>> we need to give a little bit of warning to our viewers. whenever mika, willie or i go out to any events we are told that as people are getting ready for school, children are watching tv along with their parents. in fact, biden says his 5-year-old watches all the time. if you have a young child watching right now or somebody that you do not want to see a possibly gory picture. >> wait until we call for it. >> we have maybe a cell phone image that richard has seen on line. mika, tell me. >> it is gory. it is apparently confirmation that khaddafy has been killed. >> it is not independently verified. >> rebels are claiming this is khaddafy in this photo.

this is a cell phone picture of, quote, i say it very carefully, khaddafy. >> it is not an air. >> mika, we're right here. as we show this again i want to underline that this has not been independently verified as khaddafy. but tell me what you see in the photo. let's put up the photo right now. >> you can see the picture right there. no, it hasn't been independently verified. it is just starting to cross internationally right now. it appears to show khaddafy. it is a very clear image of the face. it looks like khaddafy. he is badly injuries, perhaps even dead. the french news agency apf obtained this photograph from the rebels themselves who took it with a cell phone camera. they believe that it's proof that khaddafy was either very severely injured or dead or may have been injured and then died. that could also be part of the

confusion. >> okay. >> all right. so we're still waiting obviously for confirmation from the white house but the photo does help point to potentially a confirmation of what we've been covering all morning which is that transitional forces had a confrontation with moamar khaddafy, shot him. the first report was that he was wounded in two legs. the second report was that he was wounded in both legs and shot in the head. the third report that we're still working on confirming beyond reuters is that he has been killed. we've been watching the jubilations in the street of sirte where khaddafy was aparentally fleeing and talking about the potential implications, a clear angle of what, alex? oh, okay. apaparently you need to be clea to go do a special report. >> also a senior rebel commander is telling uses that khaddafy has been killed. >> all right. >> okay. >> thank you so much for being here. >> richard engle, thank you very

much. >> we greatly appreciate you being here. >> there will be a lot of reaction in libya today. >> i think the value of your condo just went up. peace may be coming. seriously though, remarkable reporting all across libya over the past six months. >> thank you, richard. >> thank you for being with us today. you know, willie, this is yet another chapter in a remarkable decade where u.s. troops have moved across the globe and sometimes played a greater role. sometimes a lesser role. sometimes leading from the front. sometimes leading from behind, but in all cases, our american troops have sacrificed time and time again. >> no question. i'm struck by history that if this is in fact the end of khaddafy. he took power, think about this, when richard nixon was less than a year into his first term.

stunning. he's been there 42 years. it's what happens next. you don't want to call it easy taking out a guy who has been in power 42 years, but the easy part is getting rid of the bad guy. now we will learn with libya it gets tougher from here forming a country, forming a society that can function. >> absolutely. it is going to be very complicated for them and in some ways for us. but again, engagement by the west can only help. if the west just ignores these development development, it would be a missed opportunity. >> i do want to ask you sebastian about work you're doing for troops that come home from places like iraq and afghanistan because that is what is importance to us right now. what happens after we leave to these guys. so often they are forgotten. it was encouraging to hear

president obama talk about some of his jobs bill going to vets. >> they are no longer part of a small group where they feel physically and emotionally safe and they are sort of dispursed into the larger population and it is very disother yrienting f them. outward bound takes groups of vets into the wilderness for week long trips. they go sailing. they climb mown and thes. it is an environment, a very emotionally secure environment for them. they can really talk about their experiences without in the wilderness. there is no one else listening if very, very therapeutic. they are now trying to process from the current wars. some of the guys i was with have done this. they just came back a couple weeks ago. it is an amazing program and

extremely therapeutic. >> i was going to talk about the guys you made so famous in your book and documentary. how are those guys doing? >> a lot of them stayed in the military. the ones who came back probably had the roughest ride for a little while. >> you talk about the addiction to the adrenaline that you experienced yourself. >> well, it's two things. there is an addictive component. adrenaline is a drug and addicted to it. imagine growing up with a big family and then suddenly you're by yourself. that's what it feels like. >> the united states, strangely enough when they get back home that's when a lot of them become disoriented. explain for us because it is so hard for us to imagine somebody

getting their leg blown or, coming home and having the sympathy of a nation. it happens so often when asked what is your biggest regret and they always say i want to be back with my brothers. >> i want to go back. >> it is an extraordinary thing. illness, injury, it is very isolating for anybody. these soldiers are injured and also taken out of this unit they were such a powerful part of for a year or more. that's where they get their sense of safety and they miss it and want to go back. that's been true for thousands of years. >> sebastian, thank you. >> good luck in libya. we will certainly continue to follow what you do. >> my pleasure. thank you very much for having

me. we'll be back with more breaking news. obviously reports coming first from reuters after arab media outlets reporting that moamar khaddafy has been killed after 42 years in power. confirmation by the bbc but still no confirmation by state department or american news agencies. we will be back with breaking news coverage. [ husband ] you ready for this? i just signed the whole family up for unlimited mobile to mobile minutes. you're kidding. no.

where's that money coming from, steve? did it even cross your mind to ask your wife before signing us up for something so expensive? my mother was right; i should have married john clarke. they were free. i got them when i signed us up for unlimited messaging. [ male announcer ] get more value from at&t. buy an unlimited messaging plan, and call any u.s. mobile phone free. at&t. new splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweetener with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism.

three smart new ways to sweeten. same great taste. new splenda® essentials™. ♪ [ country ] [ man ] ♪ gone, like my last paycheck ♪ gone, gone away ♪ gone, like my landlord's smile ♪ ♪ gone, gone away ♪ my baby's gone away with dedicated claims specialists... and around-the-clock service, travelers can help make things better quicker. will your auto and home insurer... be there when you need them most? for an agent or quote, call 800-my-coverage... or visit travelers.com. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here. to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there, every step of the way. call or come in for a free portfolio review today.

we are following breaking news out of libya. this is what you see are live pictures of the celebrations on the streets of sirte, libya where there are reports that former libyan leader moamar khaddafy has been killed or seriously wounded. these reports are backed up by officials from transitional forces as well as by an uncontermed cell phone picture which we will not show again but did show earlier which appears to be khaddafy at the very least gravely injured. so what you're seeing right now is reaction to this developing

news. the state department has not confirmed this. the white house has not confirmed this, but there are many different factors coming in to us here that point to at least khaddafy being injured by transitional forces as he was trying to flee sirte. >> as he was trying to flee. a cell phone photo was released. it's been up on the web. we will show it to you now. it's gory, but this is obviously, many believe a shot of moamar khaddafy. richard engle said he has talked to leaders in the transitional government that confirm this is in fact a picture of him after being shot. different reports on whether he was killed by a nato air strike or shot at close range. the chaos of war will take awhile to sort this out. again, it's important to state no confirmation from the state department. no confirmation from the u.s. government.

no confirmation from, in fact, u.s. news sources. only reuters and the bbc reporting this at this time. you know, it's very interesting, though. this is one more victory many would say for barack obama and the white house wab president that can now talk about making the right call in getting rid of this tyrant as well as osama bin ladin. the drone strikes that many criticized have been extraordinarily effective in killing al qaeda members. and look at these polls. you always hear about the president's bad poll numbers. 39% of americans approving of his economic policy. but president obama on fighting terrorism and foreign policy, 61%. who would have guessed that two and a half three years ago. i suspect that number goes even higher. >> democrats in general never do well on foreign policy, international relations, and

certainly terrorism. what this shows is that, know, once again, it takes time to see whether the foreign policy decisions that are made and carried out, it takes time to see whether they work. this is a president who has done some gutsy and risky decisions that have been criticized roundly and yet we've seen them succeed. you were talking about before, this lead from behind on libya. the president has been roundly criticized for doing that and look at the result we're talking about now. going after, personally making the decision to go after osama bin ladin, incredibly risky. that could have failed miserably and it didn't. there are other things that he tees done that as time goes on have proven to be the right decision to make. >> and you know, i just got a note of something we just said

here. on the 14th of march, about six months ago saying look what's happened because the president held back instead of sending something in blowing things up and sepding in the troops. he did this without sending billions of dollars. this so-called, quote, leading from behind strategy, has worked. >> there is that. it certainly has worked. i find the larger context of this whole story truly fascinating. we're talking about libya, whether we're talking about egypt. the trigger for this was not a drone attack. it was not boots on the ground. it was not planes in the air. it was a young shopkeeper who was beaten to death or nearly beaten to death by officials, authorities months ago and it trigerred such an uprising that it resulted in mubarak losic

power. >> one guy being treated badly has led all across north africa. >> the speed with which this happens never ceases to amaze. this feels like the culmination of something. there are outstanding problems in syria. outstanding problems across the globe, but this is a big day. >> so we're working on confirming reports that former libyan leader moamar khaddafy has been killed. we're going to take a short break. but chuck todd will continue our breaking news coverage on the reports on moamar khaddafy straight ahead on the daily run down. so stay with us right here on msnbc. . so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits...

and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪

today i own 165 wendy's restaurants. and i get my financing from ge capital. but i also get stuff that goes way beyond banking. we not only lend people money, we help them save it. [ junior ] ge engineers found ways to cut my energy use. [ cheryl ] more efficient lighting helps junior stay open later... [ junior ] and serve more customers. so you're not just getting financial capital... [ cheryl ] you're also getting human capital. not just money. knowledge. [ junior ] ge capital. they're not just bankers... we're builders. [ junior ] ...and they've helped build my business. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins. the world's most dynamic companies

know what wins in business today. maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory.