washington. it is thursday, october 20th. i'm chuck todd. first read of course. it's all about what's going on in libya. rebel commanders claim khaddafy has been killed. at this time those reports have not been confirmed by either the state department or the white house. senior u.s. officials are waiting. some visual confirmation of khaddafy's capture or death. until officials get that confirmation, either with an

actual photograph or first-hand report from a u.s. asset they will not confirm anything. there are celebrations in the city of sirte this morning. it has been quite the last six months if you think about when all this started. i want to bring in two people here that are great experts on this stuff. steve clemmens and robin wright, from the woodrow wilson center. rob robin, you have sat face to face with moamar khaddafy. you were telling me you remember interviewing him back in 1980. this is a man who took power when richard nixon was president of the united states. i note the a.p. report, past reports, proven incorrect. nobody wants to jump to conclusion here, but.

>> well he was forced out of power in tripoli. getting him was a long process of liberating libya. this is an important step whether he was captured or killed. the mere fact that they managed to take over his hometown indicates that libya is once again beginning to be whole. there are now some very small pockets but the abilityer of them to hold out much longer i think will be very difficult. this is the kind of psychological moment where the libyan people will begin to peel they can move ahead. >> steve, this morning we heard reports that the libyan transitional forces felt they had taken control of sirte. we're also seeing a report that perhaps the death happen ed aftr nato struck the convoy.

is that technically overstepping what their mission was? >> nato's mission is to basically help protect the people of libya and to deal with command or control. if you have a very libyan view of what control it is, attacking a convoy would make sense. i think it is controversial. right now when something like this happens i completely agree with robin. gives the country to develop a new narrative. sort of a post moment thinking about what happened in romania. the down sides are and i think it is very important given this senior partnership with the united states and the west with other powers trying to deal with this revolution in libya and with libya's domestic forces that this remain theirs. that it not be we who killed their leader, that this was their accomplishment not hours. that nato streak complicates that narrative. >> this was libya versus libyans

although there is still some concern that will libya be a country or sit going to end up splintering into its tribal past. it is a billion dollars and no u.s. lies to topple a dictator in libya. that's a pretty stark contrast. >> which according to one of the am sis done yesterday is basically three days of what iraq cost at its height. so this is going to be an enormous success for the obama administration in looking at how quickly it was done with what international coop raegs, collaboration and endorsement from the united nations. this is in some ways a model. unfortunately not one aapplicabe to the other parts of the world

but what the united states did in iraq. >> this is a picture ha the rebels have released of what they say is khaddafy. the rebel government is saying this is a picture of khaddafy. this has not been independently confirmed either by nbc news or the u.s. government. steve, when you see this, it clearly looks like it was taken on a cell phone, obviously, of what appears could be khaddafy. visual confirmation is going to mean everything in a situation like this. >> i think that given what the ntc did in the earlier stage where they gave out false information, they have huge credibility issues. they are going to have the overdo the showing of this corpse if in fact that's what it is. they are going to have to make sure they bring everyone in and that is shown. as we saw in eastern europe.

it ended up being a very good moment that tomorrow can be the start of a new day and people can create a very different libya. but unfortunately they gave false information, their credibility, at tweeter we were all trying to figure out what was going on. we unfortunately couldn't jump on the bandwagon. >> robin wright, since april first, this has been -- the u.s. has been involved in these missions. there have been 1,820 strikes. 145 predator streaks. 397 dropped u.s. strikes from these bombings.

again, you say every situation is different, but is this not a model of how the u.s. and nato is going to go forward and try to support these arab springs as they get into a situation that becomes more and more unstable? >> i think also it is a model that could be used in other parts of the world perhaps dealing with the unrest in africa down the road or a place like somalia. but not in the arab world. syria which is the -- >> the next one, right. >> well, the biggest one in the middle east right now. the syrians at least yet. there has to be some greater catalyst. you don't have the sense of genocide or that argument that they did when it came to getting an endorsement from the u.n. we're unlikely to see a

voluntary group that doesn't have support. the hit we took as well as the damage done politically to the image of the united states. but this collaboration with nato i think is going to be important. >> if you could stick around i want to go live to libya. this is nbc's adrienne mong. what can you tell us what you know from the ground and what you know from your sources? >> reporter: good morning. on the ground it is still quite chaotic. 15 minutes ago we had a massive convoy. we're just outside of sirte. the convoy was headed back towards misrata. it is believed that khaddafy's body was in that convoy. every person we've spoken to on the street is convinced that khaddafy was caught this morning

and killed in the course of rebel militia men taking sirte. it has been a long haul for these men. the uprising started eight months ago. they captured tripoli two months ago but this was the moment they were all waiting for. we're still hoping they can get some final confirmation. it has been unfortunately uncharacteristic that they haven't been quite as organized as they would like to be in confirming the reports that we're hearing. >> when you say chaotic, there have been some reports and we've seen other video of celebrations. the word clearly has gotten around. >> reporter: oh, yes. word definitely got around. it was very quiet in misrata this morning when we got out. we figured they would be the

first people to know but there was no word. there was no gunfire. no celebration. when we set out for sirte the highway was completely empty but gradually as we approached there were a lot more cars ap people started saying that khaddafy has been caught, that sirte had indeed fallen p a few rebel militia men showed us video that they filmed on their cell phone showing reportedly khaddafy's body. you wanted another example of chaos. we put a call in this morning to the national transitional government. they weren't able to confirm anything. they just said yes, sirte has fallen because we heard media reports saying so. >> so they are going by media reports. never a good thing there. adrienne mong in sirte. thanks so much. soining me is the director of the fairs center of eastern mediterranean study at the fletcher school of law and

diplomacy. okay. six months in the making. he's been out of power for weeks, but still this is a psychological impact opt arab spring going forward is it not? >> caller: yes. but it also took a very long time to remove him from power at a very great cause and it remains to be seen whether this will actually make any difference to the security in libya. but having said that, the fact that he could not run away from the people tor community is another powerful message to other dictators. >> >> you say it took a very long time. i could make an argument that history will say six months is not a long time. >> well, if you look at the military operation by the international community in a country of three or four million

people this was not an easy removal of a dictator from power. this took far longer than removing sadaam from power. therefore it is notes a resounding success as we like to think. also still remains to be seen whether libya will get into the kind of cay ys we saw in iraq or get itself into some kind of stability. i think it is much more the case that we see this as resounding success here but that's not the case that it is every where in the region. >> professor, what's the next step? once nato stops its missions and the military contributions that european and the united states democracies have been making into this effort, once they pull that back, what should the u.s. role be next in order to provide

the stability necessary to give libya a chance to become a full fledged democracy? >> they may wash their hands of libya very quickly and turn their attention to places like syria. libya still needs a lot of economic rebuilding. it needs a lot of assistance with its political system. the ntc that overtook khaddafy is highly fractured. doesn't have a very strong live leadership. it is a country that literally has to built its political and economic system almost from scratch. that requires a lot of support from the outside. on going support. and i hope that the killing of khaddafy will not be interpresented that the job is done and now we can move to the next crisis. >> all right.

professor nasr, thank you for coming on joining me. >> thank you. >> robin, steve, you both were listening to his assessment. he sent a signal that a lot of people say, just because khaddafy is gone doesn't mean the job is done. >> i think he's right. as i just tweeted a moment ago you're going to see a real power struggle. i think this was a very big accomplishment. remember when president obama decided to support the no-fly zone and he went down to brazil. it was the first time in history -- >> unbelievable. we were on international soil when the united states announced -- >> but that's in the a bad thing. it's saying to the world that we're going to have a constructive real form of burden sharing. the french and the british, the french very much initiated the moves. the french were furious with us when we backed off and didn't

play the traditional role inside nato that we had normally done. we demonstrated that nato can do things without the u.s. being the complete lead. i also think it's important whether it took six months or nine months. just the way vali framed this bb he made it look like a military operation. we weren't the only ones. the uae was giving military and training assistance. so, in that sense i think it was a remarkable success in a different model. remember, president obama helped create a tipping point than those revolutionaries could take hold of if they could. but there was no guarantee of success. i think that's a much smarter way to deal with skuculpting. >> libya faces enormous

problems. there are 140 tribes and clans in this country, 30 of which are porp. there are militias who are responsible for getting khaddafy. >> the only thing keeping them unified was getting khaddafy. >> now he's gone. at the same time, most countries are facing some kind of political challenge. libya is arguably the only one that has the means and the conditions to make it any time in the near future. only and a half million people and vast oil wells come peared with a place like egypt with 85 million people and very little resources. so libya has more going for it than any other place. >> robin wright, steve clemons, thank you both for coming in on short notice. up next, time magazine's bobbie gosha giving us his take. this is the dail "daily rundowny

on msnbc.

morning out of libya. multiple reports saying that moamar khaddafy has been captured and possibly killed as he tried to flee rebel forces in his hometown of sirte. the reports have not been confirmed by the u.s. government. there have been numerous times that khaddafy's death has been reported and then taken back. bobby, it was just after 5:00 a.m. this morning that the libyan transitional government said they had gotten control of sirte. by that time we had a feeling it would be within hours that they would go and find khaddafy without presuming anything at this point. what does this mean going forward for the arab spring in

your view? >> i think it draws a line under a long rain of terror by one man. i think we'll see lots of different opinions emerge out of libya when somebody has been part of your life for more than 40 years. there is bound to be people who want reports that he is dead to be true. there will be people who want him to be brought to justice. but i think the transitional government is now going to proo breathe a huge sigh of relief and now they can get down to business to dealing with libya's many problems. this is a moment of clarity now that khaddafy's gone. there are no question marks left now. now the really hard task of rebuilding libya can begin. >> now, the confirmation of his death is going to be pretty

important for libyans at this point. they are reporting that they are going to be given access to his body to film his body. bobby, we know there have been reports that had to be taken back over the last six months about where khaddafy was, was he alive. was he dead. where was he hiding. so, visual confirmation in order to give credibility to the government is going to be crucial at this point, is it not? >> it is. for ordinary libyans, they will want to see for themselves. just as you have said, there have been so many contra dektdi reports over the last few months. this is something that should happen quickly. his body is being taken to misrata. probably during the course of this battle against khaddafy,

misrata is where his forces committed the greatest atrocities. >> bobby, if you're asad right now in syria, if you're sali in yemen and you're seeing what's happening in libya and you're seeing the commitment -- how concerned are you today about your future. >> that's an excellent question. you have to think to yourself there are three ways to go. there is the tunisian dictator who now looks like he escaped unharmed. there is the mubarak way to go where you go to jail and have a trial or there is the khaddafy way to go. i think one thing that is clear that emerges from libya hopefully for dictators every where is that if you turn your guns on your own people, they are never going to forgive you. that's not the way to put down a

revolution. a revolution continues whether or not you turn your weapons on your own people. >> all right. how about same question. what does it say to the protesters and potential revolutioners in syria, in yemen when they see that it takes awhile. six months can feel like a long time in the short term. a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things. does that only stiffen their backbone? >> absolutely. i think they needed this. keep in mind that those uprising were inspired originally by what happened in tunisia and india. there were seens particularly in syria that they were flagging a little bit. it has been a long time and they haven't had as much success as the libyans have had so they needed this boost, this reminder that success was possible if you hold out and if you stick to your principles.

whether or not they can mount a kind of mill tear challenge the way the libyans have done is another question. the libyans of course had nato support which neither the people of yemen or the syrians do. but they'll certainly take a certain amount of courage from what's happened in libya. >> why, bobby, have all of these uprid uprising been more successful than the gulf and the middle east? >> they took lessons very early on from what happened in tunisia and clamped down hard. i think if you look at the record and also in syria, just as the rebels were inspired by what happened in north africa, so the dictators were, looked at that as a cautionary tail and they struck early and struck

hard against the uprisings. that doesn't mean the dictators have won. just means they brought themselves more time. that's my belief. >> all right, bobby gosha, thank you for being here. time magazine. >> any time. we'll be right back with more on this continuing coverage of the breaking news out of libya. the potential death of moamar khaddafy. be right back. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ]

♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. with professional-grade research. and some of the most powerful, yet easy to use trading tools on the planet. it's investing with intelligence and cold hard conviction. e-trade. investing unleashed.

the impact of these reports that khaddafy may have indeed been killed will have an impact on the market so let's check in right now. andrew, what can you tell me about how the markets are reacting to this news in libya which of course, particularly in commodities this could have an impact. >> exactly. futures are looking up this morning. part of that is earnings. it really is because of the khaddafy news.

the idea that 1.7 million barrels of oil which were taken off line may ultimately come back online. that will make the price of oil go down. that ultimately is a good thing for companies and company earnings. and that's why you're seeing futures in part up this morning, chuck. >> andrew ross sorkin. we will be watching what that does to the markets and everything else. thank you, sir. "daily rundown" will be back in 30 seconds. back to the breaking news. moamar khaddafy, libya's long

time dictator who was thrown from power earlier this year has reportedly been killed, not just captured. nbc's newest foreign kor spon dep -- correspondent. aman, nato in the bombing of a convoy killed him or the libyan transitional forces. >> that's right, chuck. in fact i just spoke with some people involved in that, the military council. in fact, they themselves don't have a clear answer. one of the sources i was speaking to was telling me about a convoy of 35 cars was trying to make its way out of sirte. among those vehicles was about a five car convoy that was heavily armed. that certainly caught the attention of the rebel fighters that have surrounded sirte the last several weeks and that made them engage the convoy.

what does seem a little bit conflicting is what role did nato have. did the forces on the ground engage them and that's what led ultimately to the killing of khaddafy. >> explain to viewers the coordination between the rebel fighters and nato. we know that it was a pretty well oiled machine over the last few months? >> absolutely. this began very much at the request of the rebel fighters. they were extremely overpowered early on by some of khaddafy's regime's heavier weapon ri. that's why nato was involved in proveiding that air coverage. as the coverage went on nato helped make it possible for the rebel fighters to call directly to senior commanders who were in much closer communication with nato forces that could pin point air attacks on specific targets. that certainly seems to be what

happened over the last several months, of course even today. >> i don't think we can down play the significance of who killed khaddafy if he is indeed dead. pretty important for the libyan government to be able to say they did it, correct? >> absolutely. this is very important on two levels. onactical level. there was a great deal of concern that khaddafy may have been involved in perhaps leading some of the operations. in fact, wo his money, with his health, with his influence could have made this last longer. even his sons were involved in the military forces. that's on a tactical level. but it is very important for the interim government to be able to turn over a new page. some of the people said the first thing they want to try to do is form a national reck silluation council for all of libya. that's how important bringing an end to the khaddafy era is.

not only for the government but the people of libya. >> ayman, thanks for coming on. i'm joined now by republican senator chuck grassley of iowa. he is somebody that when he came to the senate khaddafy was already there power. senator, you hear reports today that khaddafy may be killed. what are you thinking? >> well, i am thinking that so many times we heard them on the news during the conflict in libya that he was going to stick it out and die a martyr. and it seems to me he got his wish and beyond that, i think it's probably good for the future of libya from this stand point. i think your previous person already mentioned this, but it's going to make national unity much easier there libya. >> senator, there was a lot of hand ringing on capital hill

when president obama unilater unilaterally asked to do this, to participate in the nato operation. yet, in hindsight, should congress have given the president more authority on this or frankly deferred to him rather than publicly creating little bit of a political issue about it? >> well, you know since the korean war, u.n. has had a lot to do with the united states. there was u.n. decisions in this particular case. there was decision by nato to get involved and we are a leading member. also you have the war powers act in which he informed congress what he was going to do. let me remind you that most of the hand ringing came from those of us that said we were getting

involved about a month later than we should have and this probably would have been a shorter duration conflict if we had been involved earlier on. >> given the fact there is always this fine line of walking -- you do a huge show of force early, but it's an outsider force. or you serve as a support mechanism for the rebels on the ground. the difference between four months and six months in the eye of history is not a lot. >> let me suggest to you that we were not involved there to make a determination of the outcome of the conflict. we were there to protect as many human beings noncombatants as we could. that was a reason nato was involved as well. >> what lessons in this do you

take away in what u.s. foreign policy should be in dealing with the uprisings in syria for instance and in yemen? >> well, it might give a little more leeway in the case of other countries. but let's remember, whether it is 100 people in uganda last week or whatever our involvement in libya was. wasn't much after the first two weeks. you gotta remember, we're spread pretty thin by our involvement in afghanistan right now and a few other places where the war on terror is going on. so we gotta be very cautious about commitments of troops else where and we also have to accept the premise that's very basic, that we can't please the entire world. whatever we do in the area of national security has to be directly connected with our own national security or our treaty obligations or obligations to u.n. resolution. >> and you feel in this case

libya met all of that criteria the. >> well, first of all as far as authority is concerned, yes. the u.n. resolutions. as far as the united states basically even in uganda right now, trying to protect basic human suffering, another rational. so if you don't go beyond that, i think there is no question with legality. >> all right. senator chuck grassley, republican from iowa. thank you for coming on this morning. >> thank you. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engle is live with me now. what can you tell me. you have been working the phones. >> seems that most officials in libya are saying that khaddafy is in fact dead, that he was injured and that he has succumbed to his wounds and died. there is one report from a witness. this is a libyan journalist who says that he saw the body of khaddafy being moved out of

sirte in an ambulance, that it was a ministry of health ambulance and that khaddafy's body was being taken to an undisclosed location. what we don't know is who kill cad doff, and there are two completely contradicting stories. one, there was a nato air strike earlier on a convoy according to a nato official was maneuvering in the vicinity of sirte early today. nato officials don't know if khaddafy was in that convoy but they do confirm they attacked a convoy of khaddafy loyalest in the sirte vicinity today. the initial reports were coming if libyan officials that khaddafy was first injured and then killed in that convoy strike. now, however, libyan officials are saying a totally different story. a totally different place that khaddafy was hiding in some sort of hole or tunnel network, that he was pulled from this

hole/tunnel network alive and that he was killed by the rebels. that is what the rebels are saying on the ground. it could be that they didn't have the correct information at first or it could be as you suggested earlier that the rebels are trying to claim credit for actually killing khaddafy. but at this stage there are two very different stories about how he died. and some more consistency to suggest that he is in fact dead. >> richard, talk about the importance of what kind of impact would it have on the libyan people if it were nato that had killed him versus the new transitional government? >> the libyans for national pride want to be able to say they kill ced khaddafy. when history is written, people will say, well, the rebels were losing and nato intervened and

ultimately nato killed khaddafy. that is one possible scenario history could write. the rebels would like a very different history to be written. they would like it to say that yes, they were supported by nato but the rebels fought, won and the rebels themselves killed khaddafy. >> i want to share you this news. libyan television is showing pictures now of a place of two large drainage pipes. >> yes. >> where it says khaddafy was found. >> that is a picture that i've seen as well. that is this -- it was described as a hole and also described as a tunnel complex where libyan officials are say king that khaddafy was hiding. that he was actually pulled underground. i am not getting a clear picture of what this area actually looked like but he was alive when he was in this and he was pulled out and apparently killed

by the rebels who captured himd and have taken him now to an undisclosed location. this is a different version of events that we heard from earlier thoods oday that khadda killed in a convoy viek or perhaps by nato. >> richard, you have been in this country for a very long time off and on over the last six months. you know some of the intricacies of unification that is going to have to take place. explain how hard this is going to be over the next six months assuming this death is confirmed and they are now trying to put together a key country. >> taking sirte would be a key factor. if you look at the geography of the country, almost all libyans live along the coast. sirte is right in the middle. until today it has been

impossible to drive between the two biggest cities in the country. sirte is in the middle and sirte was a scene of intense battles between some khaddafy loyalist and others. so physically now the country is much more united. that will increase transport. it will increase political unification. going forward, they will still need to have a period of national reck silluatioonciliat. until now libya has been led by a war council instead of a governing council. who kill ced khaddafy, if these latest reports are true and the libyans found khaddafy in an underground complex, pulled him out, killed him and have moved him to a secret location it would be a tremor ral boo-- tre

moral boost. >> reporting the body of khaddafy has now made its way into misra ta. we'll be right back. same great taste. new splenda® essentials™. woman: saving for our child's college fund was getting man: yes it was.. so to save some money, we taught our 5 year old how to dunk. woman: scholarship! woman: honey go get him. anncr: there's an easier way to save. get online. go to geico.com. get a quote. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance.

♪ let's go ♪ ♪ cruise like a norwegian ♪ is best absorbed in small continuous amounts. only one calcium supplement does that in one daily dose. citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs. citracal. today i own 165 wendy's restaurants. and i get my financing from ge capital. but i also get stuff that goes way beyond banking. we not only lend people money, we help them save it. [ junior ] ge engineers found ways to cut my energy use. [ cheryl ] more efficient lighting helps junior stay open later... [ junior ] and serve more customers. so you're not just getting financial capital... [ cheryl ] you're also getting human capital. not just money. knowledge. [ junior ] ge capital. they're not just bankers... we're builders. [ junior ] ...and they've helped build my business.

we're builders. [ woman announcing ]bsite there's an easier way. create your own small-business site... with intuit websites. choose a style, customize, publish and get found... from just $7.99 a month. get a 30-day free trial... at intuit.com. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be. ♪ because your moment is now. let nothing stand in your way. learn more at keller.edu. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪

...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details. back now with the breaking news from libya and the reports that khaddafy's body is now in misrata. retired general barry mccaffrey. i like having both of you here, one from intelligence and one from military aspect. roger, we're hearing the conflicting reports of how khaddafy may have been killed, either by rebel forces or by a nato air strike that may have stopped the convoy that was taking away khaddafy in order to give the rebels time to get his

body. what are your sources telling you that you have heard on the ground, roger? >> caller: we're not going to know i think for a little while. what richard said in your last segment is important. clearly it is in everyone's interest that if the libyans killed khaddafy for symbolic reasons and for a whole host of reasons. bottom line is now that he's gone there is going to be a very quick effort by this international coalition to put the structure in place to allow the ntc to take the next step to govern it. that in some respects is going to be more difficult than the hunt for khaddafy was. >> general mccaffrey, you have seen the numbers, specific numbers through yesterday of the amount of flights that took place in all of this. the coordination that was taking place over the last three months was pretty smooth coordination.

>> yeah. this is a tremendous display of air ground coordination done by the french, the brits. but also 1,800 some odd strikes by the u.s. air force and naval air. oh, by the way, thanks to the u.s. air force, that's who did air to air refuelling. we acted as the ground rebellion's air force and may have indeed, you know, the nato spokesman this morning was talking about having struck maneuvering forces. sounds like civilian cars are fleeing sirte. >> i want to show photos here. they say this is the hole which looks like a sewer pipe where they found khaddafy. now, the banner says it is the hole where khaddafy, the rat was found on television. so roger, it is amazing that these dictators when they start

fleeing, they go home. >> caller: yeah. very much so. think back to when we captured sadaam in that spider hole in the ground. little bit different related. i think, if you hear bashar assad going underground someplace, that's the end game for him in syria. the other point, and general mccaffrey said it, but you had three arab nations providing air support. the united arab emirates, qatar, and jordan were all flying operations as well. that element of arab nation par participation in this is extremely significant. even if gadhafi was killed by a nato strike, the fact that this coalition had such an important arab component to it, i think, will assuage some of the concern that it was the west that conducted the final strike. >> general mccaffrey, $1 trillion, thousands of u.s. lives lost in toppling a

dictator in iraq. $1 billion, no u.s. lives lost, in toppling a dictator in libya. >> good outcome. the libyan people are courageous. many people killed. they destroyed a good part of the country. they blew down gadhafi's hometown with nato support. we ought to be happy for the libyan people and concerned about the coming years to build an operative state. >> thank you both. we'll be right back with more coverage of this breaking news on the potential unconfirmed death right now of moammar gadhafi. we'll be right back.

we cannot confirm it yet. we have obviously a great interest in knowing whether it is accurate or not because it would be a real turping point for libya. >> that was secretary of state hillary clinton. obviously, nobody in the u.s. government is confirming the reports about moammar gadhafi's

death. she was departing afghanistan on her way to pakistan a short time ago. andrea mitchell is the nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent. host of "andrea mitchell reports." andrea, eight presidents have had to deal with moammar gadhafi, and it looks like that won't be the case anymore. >> reporter: it does appear that way. we obviously don't have confirmation, chuck. you know from white house and intelligence and state department officials that we've all been talking to them for the past two hours. i just got off to a senior official who said we are getting very, very close to having official confirmation. they do not want to be wrong. they do not want it to come first from the united states for all of those sensitive reasons, but they do believe that this is accurate and that they will get information from the field. they're not going to wait on dna confirmation. they're not going to go that far. this is a situation where they know it is moving very, very rapidly in the international media. chuck, look, richard nixon was president when moammar gadhafi

took power, and this is an extraordinary achievement. we have to see what happens next. hillary clinton was there on tuesday under amazing security. it was a very, very tough day. she was on the ground for about five hours. chuck? >> what's been amazing about this is that we do know that the white house simly just wants visual confirmation from a u.s. asset on the ground at this point, but it does seem they want to let all the arab media do this first. the importance of what comes next and what is the united states role going forward? >> reporter: there's a financial role. it was very interesting to watch the debate the other night because universally all the republican candidates were saying get rid of foreign aid. some were saying -- >> even romney. >> reporter: rick perry was saying get out of the united nations and mitt romney as well. there's a huge push against foreign aid, and that's what hillary clinton was delivering was the prospect of significant

u.s. aid for this interim government. without it, they won't be able to survive. >> andrea, i know you have a lot more shows to appear on. you'll have full coverage of this at 1:00 today. and we will continue to have full coverage of this all morning and all afternoon long. stay with msnbc all day. this has been "the daily rundown." continuing coverage on this breaking news of the potential death of moammar gadhafi continues next. u ready for this? i just signed the whole family up for unlimited mobile to mobile minutes. you're kidding. no. where's that money coming from, steve? did it even cross your mind to ask your wife before signing us up for something so expensive? my mother was right; i should have married john clarke. they were free. i got them when i signed us up for unlimited messaging. [ male announcer ] get more value from at&t. buy an unlimited messaging plan, and call any u.s. mobile phone free. at&t.

i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪