past." may that be so for all the libyan people. thanks very much for watching. dylan's here. dylan, what you got? >> well, a lot of libya and a little bit of square and occupy wall street. an interesting combination, martin, is tand the show begins right now. well, the big story you surely know by now, gadhafi killed. it is a busy thursday here on "the d.r. show." i am dylan ratigan. 4:00 p.m. in new york, 10:00 p.m. right now in libya where they are going to bed tonight for the first time in 42 years without the dictator, moammar gadhafi. indeed, his reign of terror is over. the libyan dictator terrorizing both his own citizens and the world for more than four decades. he trailed only osama bin laden in killing the most americans in

terror attacks, and gadhafi's death being called one of the most significant victories to date in the arab spring. >> the dark shadow of tyranny has been lifted and with this enormous promise, the libyan people now have a great responsibility, to build an inclusive and tolerant and democratic libya that stands as the ultimate rebuke to gadhafi's dictatorship. >> and the details coming together slowly. here's the gist of what we understand at this hour. early this morning, revolutionary forces led by exactly who, we don't know, captured gadhafi's hometown of sirte. this was the last of the pro-gadhafi strongholds in the ongoing civil war. as he tried to flee, nato air strikes and u.s. drones hit gadhafi's convoy. that much the u.s. has confirmed. gadhafi, apparently, however, survived the hit and was later found inside this drainage ditch. you may have seen this picture

today. he was arrested from inside the ditch and then died while in custody. now, video of his final moments seems to back up the claim. some say gadhafi died from injuries sustained in the original air strike. otherwise say he was subsequently executed after they arrested him. regardless, the transitional government now has custody of gadhafi's body in misrata. celebrations breaking out almost immediately in tripoli and across libya. >> just this beautiful moment right now, i thought a dream just came through. >> we killed everyone like the gadhafi. >> all the world is suffering because he's doing -- because he was doing terrorist operations. and now we are happy. >> now comes the not-so-easy task of building a new country. three now, we have seen, go to

this transitional state. but first, of course, the rebels have to stop being rebels, easier said than done, frequently, and start acting like a government, which we all know, is easier said than done. it won't be easy, after eight months of continuous fighting, there are multiple armed groups throughout libya who are certain to demand a significant stake in whatever the new government is. it's something secretary of state hillary clinton is raising a red flag over. >> they have to try to unify the country, unify all the militias under a unitary command, they have to disarm a lot of people who have acquired the thousands of weapons that gadhafi had stockpiled. >> well, there's a lot of implications to consider moving forward. there's a lack of structure in libya, there's the possibility of revenge killings, in any nation, coming through this level of trauma. plus, what the impact of the death itself will have on the wider arab spring. again, all of these things happen not in a vacuum, but in

the context of, let's say, syria. so not to mention the obama white house, which has its own reaction. we'll get to all of that during this special hour of the program. up first, however, nbc news foreign correspondent, eamonn and live from misrata, nbc's adrienne mong. it's 10:00 p.m., describe, if you would, the tone, temperature, and feel of where you are and what you've experienced today. >> reporter: well, it's been one hell of a day. we just haven't been able to keep up with all the rumors and reports. what started out as a day, a morning of chaos and confusing, conflicting reports is now ending in a long night, i think, here in misrata of celebrations. we've been hearing constant gunfire, lots of tires burning rubber on the streets, lots of vehicles on the street, and a lot of people basically in jubilation at the news that gadhafi has been killed.

we're expecting to see this happen all night. there have been fireworks and lots of celebratory gunfire. and i think a lot of relief. we spoke to a member of the transitional government who has confirmed that gadhafi's body is still in a hospital here in misrata, and that a group of medical experts, both libyan and also a third party outside of libya, is how he described it, has inspected the body here and submitted a report to the transitional government. >> adrienne, thank you for the reporting live from libya. tony, if you were to look at the fall of dictators, the american invasion of iraq and the celebration, the fall of that only to watch the chaos of years of chaos that ensued, the glorious moment when mubarak stepped down after the -- in tahrir square, only to watch the military effectively sort of freeze up the developments in cairo, and now we are being

shown a third, if you will, or really a fourth, with tunisia, a celebratory moment of an infamous and villainous dictator, a charge of emotion. what, if anything, can anybody do who's not in one of these countries, to even influence it? >> well, i think that's -- we can influence it. we've chosen to influence this, dylan, we're there. and as secretary clinton just said, there's a lot to be done. and let's be very clear on what's coming next. you know, these disparate groups were brought together on a concept. well, now this concept has to become cohesion to move forward, to reestablish social order, and frankly this country has a lot of resources. a lot of this had to do with oil, to be honest about it. with that said, there's a great potential to move forward here in a positive way, and we can be helpful. i spoke to the ambassador from libya earlier today, and he told me something that is very interesting and i think this will resonate with folks. he said, we have to teach our

people how to vote. think about that. these people have not had any democracy for over 42 years. and so this is something we have -- we can be helpful and we should be helpful, as we start looking at what is best for libya going forward. >> i am -- first of all, it's a pleasure to meet you. it's nice to know that richard engel is going to have some help on the foreign beat. i'm sure he'll be happy to have that. give us the context of the ripples. if you are in damascus, if you are in -- if you are assad and you are watching this, and you've been watching the dominos fall, what is going on in the minds of those who are vulnerable in the middle east tonight? >> well, if i was mind-set of president assad, the first thing you don't want to happen is for the conflict to be internationalized. one of the things that happened both in libya and egypt, when the conflict went internationally, the momentum completely shifts. and this is what's so troubling about what we're seeing in syria. right now the regime is able to

carry out these atrocities, these attacks, because the international community, although it has expressed concern, has not taken any concrete actions. even the arab league itself is still very divided in terms of coming out to blatantly con tem the syrian regime. in libya, it was not like that. what happened, the arab league asked for international government. the operational government asked for nato involvement, and the u.s. and the western countries were willing too. what you saw in libya was a convergence of interests that had never seen before, unlike iraq, unlike afghanistan. >> and educate us a little bit, tony. there's a lot of pr around this, whether it's nato forces, whether it's the use of predator drones as opposed to troops on the ground. what -- in a simple way, help us understand, what is america's involvement in libya today? >> well, as far as i can tell you, the official story is, look, we didn't do this with boots on the ground. we did. we have some level of intelligence operations going on. but we did it with no loss of

life, and frankly, the way we did it was probably the best way to do it, without us being obvious about trying to help. being helpful from behind is not necessarily a bad thing. i'm of the mind, as others have said, once we decided to use force, we should have gone in there quickly so misrata and these other cities didn't suffer the consequence of having these huge street battles. there's still some dangling legal issues. i'm holding in my hand the suit against congress and president obama relating to the fact that they feel, congress feels, they were not properly informed. they hadn't been briefed on this for six weeks. there's still issue about the fact that president obama picked a fight here. i think he would have gotten full support had he just said, i want to do this. >> i guess what's still confusi confusing, though, is what exactly did the u.s. do? in other words, we're told there was an air strike today, was that a u.s. predator drone? was that a french fighter pilot? was that a british royal air force? who was that and what is -- and

who was in charge of what is happening? >> you ask a great question. as far as i can tell from the sources i've talked to, the convoy was stopped by one of our u.s. drones, which means, in some way, we took a direct action to essentially bring this to an end, for better or for worse, we took direct action, from what i'm being told. so our military supported both refueling, we refueled them, we supported this whole sort of thing. we gave the backbone to the entire effort. for better, for worse, we were instrumental, i think, in many ways, the right reasons to move this thing forward to the near conclusion of the military actions we're now seeing. >> what's in your head? >> well, i wouldn't necessarily describe the u.s. action as being the backbone of the operation, maybe perhaps today, but over the course of the eight months, you need to look at it from the perspective of the libyans. this is one of the criticisms people sometimes have in the world against the u.s. the policies are inconsistent. what happens in libya, what happens in egypt, in tunisia, they've not been the same.

the u.s. has been very reluctant to come out, in the case of egypt, to support the people. when people in libya rose up against the regime, they looked at it as a very organic movement. it was libyans leading the libyan revolution. there's no doubt, and nobody can underestimate the importance of nato tactically in making this happen. but to say that nato was the key to the success of the operation is a little bit deceiving. >> because you say the spirit, the soul of the operation was the decision of the libyan people to declare no mas. >> absolutely. you had the people on the ground who wanted to rise up. that was one. and why this is so important is because for 42 years and all across the arab world, these regimes have existed based on fear. now that that fear factor has been broken and people are taking to the streets, the tactics are going to different from country to country. but the principle and spirit of what is happening is exclusively an arab uprising. that's why people for the first time are feeling that this is a chance for the u.s. to stand on the side of the people and get it right. not stand on the side of the regimes. >> this story clearly is going

nowhere. it's a pleasure to see you. i look forward to further conversation as it develops. tony, same thing goes for you. how many countries -- we were saying earlier, three down -- >> just 18 to go. >> 18 -- i mean, it may be 100 to go. who knows what the government reforms are in the offing in this world of ours in the next 20 years. it's going to be quite the sight to behold, dramatic in some cases and subtle in others, i'm sure. thank you, tony, thank you, ayman. >> thank you. >> we have an action-packed show ahead on a busy news day. coming up, the politics of this kill. what exactly happened in the last moments of gadhafi's life and who dealt the final blow qualm live report from the white house. and then, the rise and fall of gadhafi. a look at 42 years of the mad dog dictator. and then, putting it all in context. from tripoli to tiananmen square down to zuccotti park on wall street. exploring the power of protest with "rolling stone's" matt

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well, for more on the white house reaction to the death of gadhafi, we go to nbc's kristen welker. kristen, what's the status at this hour? >> reporter: hi, there, dylan. well, president obama spoke about the death of moammar gadhafi at about 2:00 this afternoon. as you know, the white house quite cautious in their response. we initially got those reports that gadhafi had died at about 7:30 this morning. the white house didn't want to come out and comment on this until they were incredibly confident that gadhafi had, in fact, died.

so president obama this afternoon saying that this marks the official end to the gadhafi regime, saying that he was confident in the reports that he was getting from officials in libya there. he also said that the united states would be a partner to libya during this period of transition. many people, dylan, will likely see this as another foreign policy success for the obama administration. certainly not everyone, but many will. others include the killing of osama bin laden, anwar al awlaki. here's how president obama characterized this during his comments from the rose garden. take a listen. >> we see the strength of american leadership across the world. we've taken out al qaeda leaders and we've put them on the path to defeat. we're winding down the war in iraq and have begun a transition in afghanistan. and now working in libya with friends and allies, we've demonstrated what collective action can achieve in the 21st century. >> reporter: now, the president also paid tribute to those

americans who had lost their lives at the hand of gadhafi. press secretary jay carney just wrapped up a briefing. we asked him what the united states' role would be moving forward. he basically said that the u.s. will continue to be a partner with libya, although the details hadn't exactly been worked out. but he did reiterate the fact that this will be a long and difficult process for the transitional national council moving forward, but the united states, its international allies would be there to help them. dylan? >> kristen, thank you so much. let's turn to our mega panel, karen, susan, and jimmy are here. what is your immediate reaction to this news, karen? >> well, assuming that it's true, which it sounds like now that we're more confident that it is, this is great news, hopefully, for the libyan people. i think, obviously, this is a starting point. an end of one thing, but a starting point on what's going to be a very long road for them. i also, of course, think of it in political terms. that here, again, i think the president and his administration

and secretary of state hillary clinton and the rest of the foreign policy team had the right judgment in not taking a cookie cutter approach to libya and understanding how important it would be that if we got to this point, that this victory would be from the libyan people. not because the united states came in and bigfooted. >> and the interesting thing, jimmy, as somebody who obviously is a vicious critic of this administration on banking and health care and all this sort of domestic policy, this has to be very good politically for the obama camp and president obama's leadership team, to be able to pin up moammar gadhafi next to osama bin laden and just sort of run down that list after having watched watch both george w. bush and dick cheney, under the sort of real saber-rattling of the republican party and all the tough-guy stuff, and then it's the guy from harvard's that's picking off all the bad guys.

that's got to feel pretty good for them. >> well, quiet diplomacy always gets it across the goal line way faster than exposing your muscles and your pecks and acting like a badass, which usually doesn't work. we all remember when the president went on the carrier and said "mission accomplished." really? i think obama accomplished most of the mission. but i would suggest to most of the 30 million people in america who don't have work or are underemployed, they really don't give a damn about moammar "i can't say his name" gadhafi. they would like to know what's happening domestically. this president, who i love. i love this guy. i voted for him, i'll probably vote for him again, he gets an a plus plus plus plus on foreign affairs, and at this point in time, aisle having a hard time giving him a c plus on domestic affairs. not that it's all his fault. i would suggest that his pupils in the classroom aren't helping him, that would be the republican congress, and part of the democratic congress, but

people want to him to focus here. >> and with a different economy, with a different relationship with the banking, with a different relationship with our own country, points like this overseas, you would think, would be -- create an incredible wave going into a presidential election and it doesn't necessarily feel like that is in play at all. >> well, it would be really hard for him to go into the presidential election with this -- with the bush policies, frankly, as foreign affair policies. so really, he's kind of caught in between, do i want to deal with a bad economy or basically changing my foreign affairs positions from when i ran last time. >> but, karen, can they translate the success, can the democratic leadership harken back, not just to this, but to their success overseas, in a way that, in any way benefits them politically, and how do they reconcile that with the obviously domestic turmoil? >> a couple of things. number one, let's remember that this was a military action where because we were engaged with the

arab nations and nato, we didn't have boots on the ground. no american lives were lost. this has cost us nearly nothing in compared to iraq and afghanistan. and yet it was important for america's safety and security. so, i mean, again, i think there's something to be said for, this is a model, this and what we saw happening in egypt, for maybe how we engage with the world, where we keep our costs down, frankly. >> but that wasn't the answer to my question. my question was, there's -- jimmy, there's obvious politics that are beneficial if you are a president who gets the bad guy. and yet, this is a president who's done a better job of getting the bad guy than almost any president in recent memory. and yet, it appears that the currency that holds for him politically because of the domestic situation is limited, at best. >> i want to remind everyone when bill clinton was president, every time he went down in the polls, we all of a sudden found ourselves engaged in some sort of military action overseas, serbia, croatia -- whatever it

was, right? and every time the republicans criticized him and they said, oh, he's bombing people for political purposes. to answer your question, it is politics. it's also world politics. and again, he's got an a-plus in politics and the world, i would like for him to at least get a c-plus or a "b" domestically. >> but the point i was trying to make is that this is an area where president obama, without the republicans having anything to do with it, we saw this is his leadership. this is what he and his team were able to accomplish when we let them do what they're here to do. and they were able to do it in way that kept our costs down, which is better for our economy than iraq and afghanistan that george bush ran us into. so my point is, there is an argument to be made about his leadership that is very relevant to how he is handling the rest of the job. >> so sometimes he can lead and do things without the republicans, but when things aren't going his way, he has to blame the republicans and say he can't lead because the republicans are getting in the way. >> because they were getting in the way, susan!

because they blocked everything! >> or you're suggesting that in the case of the banks, that he just didn't want to lead and reform those banks, right? that that was -- that he's a great leader and just didn't want to lead on the banks. >> well, why in god's name -- >> we could do this all day. we can do it all day. >> why would you cut off your campaign funding, for god's sake? that would just be ludicrous. >> that's no way to run a campaign, is it, jimmy? >> no! >> the panel stays. next, celebrations of the death of gadhafi, but the critical question remains, is it the obvious one, what now? [ male announcer ] this is lara. her morning begins with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills. the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain.

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well, with word of gadhafi's death spreading across the globe and this video seepingly proving his demise, as of right now, still more questions and answers remain, how exactly did he die? did rebels know where he was? or was it luck? and who ultimately made the decision to kill the man? and perhaps the biggest question as rebel troops celebrate is

what's next for a people whose binding tie was freeing themselves from gadhafi's rule? and for more on it, we bring in our specialist, former ambassador marc ginsberg. let me point you the rosiest scenario i can conjure and you can tell me how far away i am. 22% of all of italy's oil comes from libya. 16% of all of france's oil comes from libya. about 13% of all spain's oil comes from libya. and there's only a few million people that live there, as susan del percio was just telling me. perhaps libya will become the new saudi arabia as the world's wealthiest new oil state and become friends to all who would care to be friends with them. how far away from any sort of a reality of a nation is this country let alone a wealthy and powerful oil nation that is loved by the world? >> dylan, before gadhafi, there was a king. he was the leader of that country until gadhafi overthrew

him in the late '60s. libya starts on the cadillac of crude. low sulfur content, not a lot of refinery requirement. everybody wants the libyan oil. it is the third largest reserve in africa. and there's only 6 million people. do the math. 6 million divided by $68 billion in revenues and you got a lot of money that can trickle down to that population. >> susan, go ahead. >> oh, ambassador, when we talked about that population, they're basically clans. and i'm wondering, how are they possibly going to get people together and really create a government and split up this money? i mean, it seems that there's still going to be some loyalists to gadhafi that are going to fight back? is there any way they're going to come together as a nation to handle this kind of money in my reasonable amount of time? it all depends on whether or not this transitional national

council that has a leadership that emerges that is respected by all of these clans and tribes. the country, as you rightfully point out, has been a -- has 41 tribal leaders, all of whom probably want to get their hands on some of that money from the oil revenue. and we know through history that leaderless democratic revolutions don't succeed. so how the leadership in the guise of the current interim leader, mustafa jaleel, if they can transform this anti-gadhafi euphoria into a pro-libya movement that is patient. the biggest problem is that the libyan's face right now, i was supposed to meet with the libyan's ambassador before gadhafi's kpr, and that's what they need now more than anything. their hospitals are overflowing with patients that are wounded, that have lost limbs. if the interim government does not show that it can get to the

libyan people the urgent support that they need, you can watch what will happen. it will be sort of this islamic charity bowl organizations proliferating around the country. >> karen, go ahead. >> so we were talking about, mr. bas ado ambassador, about the politics of this. we've barely begun in the 2012 cycle and heard some pretty whacky stuff from the president. but clearly, whoever is the next president, whether president obama is re-elected or one of the pizza crew gets in, is going to have to figure out a strategy to deal how do we engage with libya. what should we be listening for in the debate? i mean, what -- what you just described seems very complicated and very easy for us to get mired in very quickly. what's the right approach and what should we, as voters be listening for? >> well, karen, the most important thing to remember here is not like the other arab spring countries. there's a great deal of reservoir of pro-americanism

inside libya. people there do really appreciate the role that the united states played. and what they need is stuff that we're really good at. organizing political parties, establishing municipalities, i'm making a shameless plug. i just wrote a piece on "the huffington post" on what the transitional national council needs. they need sort of a new deal vocation plan and training for the young people. these are the types of things that americans can provide without having to put boots on the ground, we can be paid for it, the american taxpayer will not be out of any money, if we do it right, because that's what the libyans want from us. >> jimmy? >> ambassador, you just said some very, very interesting things. you talked about hospitals, repairing soldiers over there who have lost arms and limbs and legs and all these different things that they would probably need in libya domestically. i would suggest to you that in the united states, we need

hospitals. and i would suggest to you that we need infrastructure spending. and i would suggest to you -- and i'm not a xenaphobe, i'm not, but since president obama has ridded the world of just about every damned terrorist out there, that perhaps now we can focus here and look at what our needs are. i'm not a xenaphobe, i'm just thinking outside the box. >> jimmy, this is jobs for america. we're not in a zero sum game where americans lose because the libyans win. the libyans have money to hire americans and hire american companies to do work that they right now are very good at. we know how to build hospitals. we know how to provide medical care and to provide that type of training. there's companies, private companies all over the united states that could gain huge numbers of dollars from this work that is necessary in libya. so i don't agree with your

premise. we can actually do better as a result of what the libyans need rather than have to provide foreign assistance to a country that can ill-afford it. remember, jimmy, libya's one of the wealthiest countries in the world. they can pay for what the united states taxpayer doesn't have to pay for. >> did i mention halfway, let's do both. >> well, of course! >> of course. >> listen, i'm as much in favor as seeing the american worker back at work than i am worried about anyone else, but that doesn't mean that the american worker is going to lose a job because they got a job doing construction worker in libya. >> interesting and provocative ideas, marc. thank you very much. and again, it's worth taking a trip to "the huffington post" to take a gander at that. karen, susan, jimmy, we'll talk to you next week. straight ahead here, he was one of the world's most eccentric leaders, the rise and fall of the mad dog the dictator, moammar gadhafi. you name it.

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he called himself the leader of the revolution, but today it was a revolution against him that killed moammar gadhafi. he seized power 42 years ago ousting libya's last monarchy. once in control, he nationalized libya's oil revenues is saw libya grow rich, but no one richer than his own clan. his reign involved into a classic military dictatorship, killing dozens of political opponents each year, but it was libya's role as a state sponsor of terror that made gadhafi into an international pariah. the bombing of a berlin nightclub that killed two american soldiers led then-american president ronald reagan to famously describe gadhafi. >> this mad dog of the middle east has a goal of a world revolution, muslim fundamentalist revolution. >> two years later, a massive

destroyed pan am flight 103 over lockerbie, scotland, and many families of the victims blamed the libyan leader. >> moammar gadhafi is a murderer and killed 203 innocent people as well as all sorts of people in libya. >> though gadhafi denied responsibility for years, the bomb was traced until an intelligence officer, and it wasn't until after 9/11, those attacks in the u.s., that ultimately catalyzed him to rehab his image, he admitted responsibility and paid billions to the victims' family. he sought out meetings the world over and spoke against al qaeda and weapons of mass destruction, even dismantling his own wmd programs. but the people libya have long since had enough of the people galvanized by uprisings and tunisia and egypt, the arab spring took hold in libya, unleashing a torrent of fury against gadhafi.

his violent crackdown and response sparked a civil war and international involvement. still, for gadhafi, a libya without him is unimaginable. saying this in his last interview with the u.s. media outlet. >> they love me, all my people with me, they love me, all. >> in reality, libya was ready for the end of gadhafi, and it came in that drainage ditch outside of sirte. we'll be right back. 4g-- the next evolution in wireless technology. with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster:

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well, the news today out of libya, a testament to the force of the people coming together and rejecting whatever the status quo was. in this case, the stakes were about as high as they get in any nation. but from tripoli to tiananmen square, right down to the streets of cairo this spring or wall street this fall, we have seen the power of protest flexed at home and abroad. why is it that some uprisings and demonstrations come to succeed while others splinter and fail. and how much does the occupation in america have in common with the events and principles of tahrir square or tiananmen square? and here with us now is chai ling, one of the student leaders of the tiananmen square protests of 1989, who is now advising the occupy boston protesters. she's also author of "a heart for freedom." also with us, matt taibbi, contributing editor for "rolling stone," who has been covering the occupy wall street movement extensively and matt's book

"griftopia" is a narrative that explains the exact condition that america is currently suffering. it's great to see you, matt. ling, you have a perspective that i suspect almost no one on the planet or very few people do. what do you see as the common and differentiating points between the occupation movement in america today and what was driving tiananmen square in 1989? >> well, a lot of similarities. mostly, because they are made of young population of people out of the dissatisfaction of the society and want change, better change. the difference from tiananmen and the current occupy wall street movement is at tiananmen, we walked for the rights of the whole nation, we want betta bet society for 100%, and we want to do it through peace mechanism, not violent mechanism. and we want to be very generous, to be giving, and basically ask for a change in unity. so that's the biggest difference

i see tiananmen versus what's happening with occupy wall street movement. but i do believe if wall street, you know, the occupation movement is taking place, being let channel better, they can be a driving force, to create changes in america. >> do you agree with what you just heard? >> i absolutely agree that they can be a driving force for change in this country. i think there's widespread popular support on both sides of the political spectrum for being angry with wall street. i think the tea party and occupy wall street are natural allies in ways they don't even really understand maybe yet. and if they ever get together, then i think washington will have a real problem on their hands. >> you wrote about this recently. we know there's been a frustration by both the media and the political establish, who have been attempting to make occupy wall street, and all of this, into a left/right issue. you were very aggressive, as i have been, and i think many others in saying, this is an

up/down issue. this is a fairness issue. this is a criminal issue, this is not a political issue. i want to read an excerpt, though, from matt. he wrote, "what nobody is comfortable with is a movement in which virtually the entire spectrum of the middle class and poor americans is on the same page, railing against the incestuous political and financial corruption on wall street and in washington." that really sums it up. >> well, right. i mean, look, the left and the right have different ideas about how to fix this country. they have different things that they're specifically complaining about. but everybody can agree that nobody thinks that our tax dollars should go to pay lloyd blankfein's bonus. nobody thinks that the too big to fail companies should be bailed out by our tax dollars. and nobody thinks that hedge fund managers should pay half the tax rates of teachers and firemen. i think that's something that everybody agrees about. what you do after you fix those problems is a different matter. but those basic issues that

nobody wants to subsidize this sector of society, it's not a left or a right issue. >> ling, how do you view the occupation, and for that matter, tiananmen square and other protests where the establishment media and establishment political organizations want to view what's going on through the lens that they have, as opposed to actually see what is happening? >> well, i think it's a challenge. and the challenge of how the occupation movement, they need to be able to do a better job to be consistent with their messaging. for example, right now they have the rich slogan out there, where they're also trying to move for peaceful change. and that's very confusing. so if you really want to, you know, get rid of corporate greed, which matt just said, i think i also agree with his point, they need to be the example. to be the change you want to see in the world, how about a view, even the poorest poor, in this

country and in america, you know, in comparison to the rest of the world, we still are the top 100%. how about if we start giving, have a day off, you know, a hunger strike or a fast to save our one-day salary to give to the poorest poor in other nations. and then have a dialogue with all the corporate executives and to see what are they going to do with their money. and that, i think you're going to see a great change in this country. >> it feels that people are being asked, literally, to expand their state of consciousness, but they're being asked to look at the world, not as they imagine it was or they understand it to be, but as it actually is becoming before our eyes. >> yeah, sure. and that changing consciousness is happening all over the country right now, and in our media, you would have never have seen three months ago the entire commercial media talking about

income disparity and this idea that there's a few people who have a separate set of rules. and everybody else is in a completely separate country. that idea would never have punctured our pop culture consciousness before, but now it's everywhere, because of this movement. >> if you look at the fundamental reason that people come out, ling, which seems to be, everybody, at least anecdotally, that you get a chance to interview, tends to be involved for different reasons, have different motivations, different issues. some people worried about war, some people worried about if environment, some people obviously worried about the banks, but everybody seems to be worried about the fundamental breach of the principle of fairness. >> yes. i would agree with that. i spoke to several corporate executives. i said, why can we be the example to give and give more, and they said, yes, we're already giving. we're already giving 10% of our profit away. we want to be more biblically, give our first fruit to god and to the poor, to the press. we want to give 10% of the revenue, but we can't.

because our would not let us and we would not be competitive if we do that. that would cause a look into the current corporate tax structure and rate toward american corporations. i think if we can really start looking into that way, saying if we want to be a godly country, to be the city on the hill whose life cannot be hidden, if we want to act truly what should be, we want to make 10% of what we're making individually, every company, if we all started doing that, that would change us driving a smaller government, and then more our givings can be used to create more jobs and create more equity in the society. you know, to rid of the homeless and poverty issue around the world, and, you know, to end genocide around the world, because they are targeting baby girls today, who have over 160 million young women are killed at birth, girls killed at birth. so it's a great time to look at the fundamental global change, both in america and around the

world. >> how central, matt, is the unified field? the web of communication that connects everybody on this planet in a way it's never existed before to the expanded consciousness, the awakening that we're talking about, because people are subjected to so much more information? >> i think that's one of the great things about occupy wall street, is that all of these people are showing up and they have a point of view that's so diametrically opposed to the message that they've been getting in most of the commercial media out there. they've been, you know, hammered relentlessly, that this was a 1,000-year flood, that this was an accident and that the bankers weren't responsible. but they have all of this other information that they're getting from other sources and from each other. and that've been creating and nurturing their own message, and that's coming from some place that's not top down. it's coming from all these other sources in society, which is really inspiring. i think it's a great thing. >> i agree with that. i have felt inspired, in fact, by the entire experience.

just by seeing how everybody's connecting around the singularity of breach of fairness, regardless what their point of origin is. it's wonderful to see you, matt. and chai ling, it's an absolute pleasure to meet you. you carry some incredible messages, and i feel it's a privilege to hear you and give other people the opportunity. wishing you all the best. coming up here on "hardball," the fight on the right between rick perry and mitt romney. chris asking whether it's helping president obama or harming mitt romney. but next, absolute power corrupts absolutely. david goodfriend with his daily rant on the lessons we can all learn from libya. but with advair, i'm breathing better so now i can take the lead on a science adventure. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator,

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here with his daily rant, david goodfriend. >> thank you, dylan. of course, all day long, msnbc has been showing images of the recently deposed, now deceased, dictator of libya, moammar gadhafi. and the sages of tvland are lining up to opine on what it all means. so please forgive me as i now opine on what it all means. is the lesson here that u.s. foreign policy was right? well, we all can agree that gadhafi was a bad guy. but the u.s. has had an anti-libya policy for decades. the only thing that has changed was when enough brave people took to the streets in libya against their oppressive leader. president obama arguably handled the situation well with nato, but i'm always going to be concerned about presidents using military force without congressional authorization, even presidents from my own political party. no, for me, the lesson here is one that should hit close to home. it's about power and what happens when too much of it is

concentrated in too few people at the top. gadhafi maintained political power by brute force. but he also accumulated immense economic power by commandeering the vast natural resources of libya. the result was abject poverty in most quarters of libya and excessive wealth among the autoplutocrats at the top. there's a warning in there for us. our american democracy was founded on the principle that power must be separated and diffused between different branches of government, executive, legislative, and judicial, and all power ultimately originates with the people. that's enshrined in our constitution. but starting in the early 20th century, we evolved to apply this concept of diffusing power to our capitalist market system as well. in the wake of oil, lumber, and railroad monopolies, the trust-busters like teddy roosevelt pushed through new laws that redefined the rules of the road in capitalism. economic power, like political power, cannot be concentrated in

the hands of too few. if it is, competition dies and a few people at the top become fabulously wealthy while everyone else suffers. after that came the progressives who said that working people must have a minimum wage and a safe workplace. these democratic forces infused our market economy, gave birth to the largest, most comfortable middle class in the history of the planet, and ultimately spurred vast economic growth. that is the vision of a true democracy. both political and economic, shared power, mutual prosperity. moammar gadhafi's demise should serve as a reminder in these difficult economic times that the concentration of wealth and power among a chosen elite is as anti-american as it gets. it also is unsustainable. it might take years or even decades, but ultimately the people won't stand for it. i'm hoping that those in power here in the u.s. get that. dylan? >>do