music with me? >> dylan, i will play cricket with you, i'll play rugby with you, i'll play tennis with you, but music, i've heard, may be problematic. some of your production staff have told me it just may be a bit tricky. you and some drums and some sticks, things could get -- >> i don't do drums. i do alternative percussion. >> that's what i'm talking about, and that may involve all kinds of instruments. >> i do other things. >> okay. >> we'll work this out. >> we'll work it out. i'm happy to consider the prospect at some point. >> maybe i can come audition. >> maybe! >> maybe i'll do that. all right. >> why don't you do some program. >> okay, we're going to do that. show starts right now. with well, the big story today, no way to live, once again. good tuesday afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan. a delight to be seeing you. no shock in any of this data. more bad news for housing.

the headline today, home prices down an additional 3.8% from 12 months ago. the good news is the rate of decent is slowing, but putting it in perspective, prices are now down 31% beneath the housing bubble's peak. that is, of course, a third of the value of every home in america. and in the nation's foreclosure capital, las vegas, our president, barack obama, rolled out his latest claimed attempt to ease the housing crisis late monday. >> there are still millions of americans who have worked hard and acted responsibly, paying their mortgage payments on time, but now that their homes are worth less than they owe on their mortgage, they're having trouble getting refinancing, even though mortgage rates are at record lows. so that's going to soon change. >> well, don't misunderstood. any help is a welcome improvement to americans struggling to keep up with the mortgage market. but once again, it is proportionally completely off.

the proposed band-aid is a pitiful response to a problem whose magnitude i quite honestly do not know whether either political party is prepared to confront. more than 11 million homes in this country, one in four, are underwater. the obama plan at its best-case scenario -- excuse me, or president obama's plan, at its best-case scenario, would assistleassist le less than a million of them, and while it did so, it would be saving struggling homeowners a few hundred bucks each year. it would be nothing to combat the actual problem, which is a housing finance market whose incentive is to manufacture debt at the expense of the people. these homes have zero equity and, obviously, carry excess debt. even more sinister, president obama's proposal has a contingency to allow the banks to get off the hook for all

prior liability. shifting even more responsibility to the american taxpayer, and further eliminating liability for banks. with help like that, who needs hurt? we start with one of the chief prosecutors of the banks during the savings and loan crisis a few decades back, bill black. he's currently an associate professor of economics and law at the university of missouri, kansas city. zack carter joins us as well, senior political economy reporter with the "huffington post" and a man we're always happy to see. professor black, what is your assessment of the proposal from president obama? >> well, first, the numbers are considerably worse than you just showed. that figure of 12 million is actually how many houses are underwater by at least 125%, not 100%. >> so, again, because it goes to my base criticism, which is, i'm

not sure that the political parties, and for that matter, the media, comprehend the magnitude of this problem. why is understanding the size of the problem so important? >> because, you realize immediately that the proposed solutions, if they worked perfectly, would do virtually nothing, given the scale of the problem. so they haven't even tried to solve. we've gone from yes, we can, to actually, we're not even really going to try. > >> and zack, in the context of professor black's assessment, have you seen any housing plan, from any political leader, that addresses the scale of the problem or who would you even point us to as any agency who has even attempted to address it on a scale that actually exists? >> well, politically, nobody's interested in solving this problem. in order to solve problem, you have to force very large banks to recognize losses that are already on their books, that they've buried with accounting

tricks. so no one really wants to take on big banks in washington, and that means nobody's really serious about tackling the problem. that's why this plan deals with refinancing rather than negative equity, people being underwater. >> right. it makes total sense. and you agree with that assessment, i presume? >> yes. we extorted the financial accounting standard board to change the rules so that the banks wouldn't have to recognize the losses, unless and until they actually sold the place. so they're sitting on this shadow inventory of millions of homes and the markets simply don't clear. millions of people are twisting slowly in the wind. over 10 million people, well over 10 million people, are twisting slowly in the wind. it is a disaster. we just went through a debate in las vegas, which is one of the epicenters of the crisis, in which about two people actually mentioned that housing. >> and the reason for that goes to the reason why we started get

money out and the fact that money is so influential and political the decision making, nowhere is that more apparent or few places is that more apparent than both parties' complete and utter refusal to address this problem. but, there may be a silver lining for all of us. don't lose hope quite yet. we still have our attorney general in each state. granted, so far, a lot of that has not been the most encouraging. but we have recently not only new york state attorney general eric schneiderman, we've seen the attorney general in nevada, and we've seen delaware attorney general and delaware may be a small state, but it's big in the corporate world, in terms of law making, and take a listen to beau biden, the attorney general there, when he was on the show last week. >> my view of the world, and it's been formed every day the investigation we're doing, these banks have almost -- my hypothesis is, they've lost track of who owns what in america. they literally have lost track of who owns what. the borrower is so disconnected

from the person that own the mortgage, the investor, and it's been sliced and diced 15 times. >> do you agree with that? >> yes. part of the story is massive fraud in the sale of collateralized debt obligations. a federal agency has sued 17 of the largest banks, claiming that they engaged in endemic fraud and that there's a paper trail establishing that they knew their actions were fraudulent. and there's still no indictments from the federal level. so it's left to the states and to your honor roll, i would add the california attorney general harris, who i applaud in that column, because she too withdrew from the state settlement, which is being pushed by the obama administration to create an utter scandal, where we are going to make crony capitalism official. they want and apparently think they're going to get immunity from the underlying fraudulent

loans by giving what is, for them, from their standpoint, chump change. >> zach, to that end, even in president obama's current proposal, as it was laid out in las vegas, it appears that it comes with an about for banks to eliminate their liabilities. can you educate us about that aspect? >> right. well, when a bank makes a loan to a borrower, it then typically takes to it fannie mae and freddie mac and say, can you buy this loan or guarantee it against losses for us? when it takes that loan to fannie and freddie, it says it has a certain set of characteristics, it's a safe and affordable loan for the borrower taking it on. if it doesn't meet those characteristics, when the loan defaults, they can take it back and say, you've got to eat this loss. that ability to push back those losses on the banks goes away under this new program. so we don't know how many loans going to be picked up by the program, we don't know how many of them were misrepresented. but there's clearly the

potential for a significant amount of upside for big banks, in the way the program is structured. >> very quickly, why would any sitting president of the united states work -- i don't care who the president is, i don't care what the political party is, work in any way to help prevent honest liability for criminal -- potential criminal action? >> it is incomprehensibly disgraceful. it is a violation of the oath of office. it is a destruction of america. and the only thing i would add, zach is absolutely right, except we do know something about the percentages of fraud in these loans and they are enormous, starting in the range of 50%, and simply what they found from a paper review with no investigation. >> those are the dipstick tests, just the anecdotal? >> no -- >> or an actual physical review? >> where you look at a sample and see the fraud are so obvious, that with no investigation, you can see it's

fraudulent. >> just because the number's wrong? supposed to be a 10 and it's a 100. >> make absolutely no sense, it's inconsistent. >> professor, it's a pleasure. hope to be seeing a lot of you, if only because i'm hopeful that we'll actually start to see some reconciliation with the banks and i think you should be a big part of that. zach, same for you. keep up the sensational work. you should always keep track of zach's publications and writings and journalism on "the huffington post" pretty much every day. and certainly, most days. sometimes the kids got to do some reporting. he can't write every day. coming up here on "the d.r. show," from housing debt to student debt, as the president preps to unveil relief for student, is this plan on par with the size of the student debt problem? plus, living on a prayer, what the 99% have in common with the pope. the pope's appeal for a higher

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we're back. time now for our tuesday megapanel. karen, susan, and jimmy are here. and the debate, it would seem, mr. williams, ms. del percio, ms. finney, would be about the length of susan's hair. if you noticed, the hair ku. it's very nice, wouldn't you say, jim? >> i e-mailed her yesterday morning, sitting in my office,

and said, susan, your hair looks fantastic. >> i think i'm hearing, wrap it up, right? >> and no one told me to do it. >> so, listen, the hope, let's start with -- now that we're done with the hair, now we're going to deal with the pope. the pope has called for a central world bank. specifically, calling for the politics of the achievement of a universal common good. this is not to suggest, i don't know where he's going with that, but -- >> it's kind of what he has in common with the occupiers. it's like, no one's going to be a leader, per se, but i'm just going to throw it out there and you guys work it out. >> what do you think, karen? >> i think on the one hand, obviously, the church has a lot of money and assets to protect. on the other hand, it's not -- i'll be a realist on that side. on the other hand, it is a good thing to have somebody out there talking about the poor, because we haven't talked about the poor in a long time.

i don't think that starting yet another entity is the right way, because it's one more group of crooks to watch. >> it's interesting, because we have, jimmy, as you know, you actually were one of the authors of the commodity futures modernization act. you were very much involved with the -- >> way to go! for america. >> but i guess my point is, that if we are going to legislate a global financial market place, right, the big thing you talk to jamie dimon at jpmorgan, talk to lloyd blankfein, he says, listen, you can't make american tax law or american capital requirements or american securities laws, because if i don't like them, i'll just go to london or hong kong or tokyo or whatever it may be. and we know that all these multi-national corporations in america are not american companies, they just use american resources and american tax code in order to benefit themselves, sometimes to our benefit, and sometimes to our detriment, but they are not america. is the pope not right in observing, if you are going to

have global multi-national financial institutions and corporations, you must have a regulatory body that is global in its scope. or if you're going to talk about -- >> the way he ties it in and says it has to be morally and ethically binding. >> but it's the pope! he gets paid to say that. >> -- thinking about wall street, frankly. that's where he gets in trouble. >> in other words, is the pope setting the right order of magnitude, which is, this is a global problem that will require a global solution, forget whether it hits the central bank, or you like his particular idea, it is only a global debt restructuring. a global financial apparatus that can possibly manage what's already going on. >> we already have a global banking apparatus. >> but we don't have a regulator -- >> -- using his platform as the pope to talk about -- >> honestly, i don't really give a damn what the pope thinks. because, i'm pretty sure i'm not

roman catholic, and, b, he doesn't speak for me. what i can tell you is the pope is very good at counting money and not so good at children and family services. and i can also tell you that we are in a global economic world, yes, but does that mean that the swiss banking system should be on par with the american banking system or the english housing system should be regulated exactly the same way as the swiss housing system? no. i don't -- listen, the eu tried to -- >> so basically -- >> i guess my point is, if you don't have global regulations and i run a bank, i'm going to go with the country with the crappiest regulations and crscr the rest of the world. >> is that a way to hide your exposure, if the country with the crappy regulations goes under? isn't that part of the point of having a broader picture?

>> i think america has really, really tight regulations and really, really lax regulations, but i'm still sure the financial system of the world is based in new york. where are these people running to? >> to london and tokyo. if that's called offline. >> but trust me, london is a great place to do business in the finance world. >> london bank rules, are they tighter than hours? >> yes. let me move to another subject, just for the interest of time. >> i love the pope, though, his shoes. >> i actually happen to be catholic, so let's watch that next time, a little bit. >> i don't give a damn about the pope. >> let's talk about something else fun. it's religion and then taxes, right? >> i thought it was sex and politics. talking about politics and taxes. >> so now we're going from religion and the pope to taxes. gop 2012 tax plans. i look at the fact that he want to have this debate, whether it's the perry plan, the cain plan, or the romney plan as

encouraging. at the very least, they want to talk about tax code. personally, i'm discouraged by what i read in all these tax plans insofar as it does not address the underlying issues of either investment in this country, production in this country, or for that matter, if you want to talk about flat taxes, if you're going to tax money, 40% of the money is with 1% of the people, shouldn't that 1% of the people paying 40% of the taxes? isn't that a flat tax? >> okay, logic in politics, not going to happen. >> a plat tax on the income versus a sales tax. and so at the end of the day, i mean, if you are making $30,000 a year but paying 40% of -- or 20%, 20% is perry's thing. so you do the math, i don't know what it is, 20% versus making $30 million a year, paying 20%, are you going to be paying proportionately more if you make $30 million, yes? but if you're making $30,000 year, paying 20% of that is a lot of money. >> but the point is, none of

that matters at all. >> no, it does matter. >> let me finish. the reason it's a farce is because all of this is about politics. this is about rick perry trying to go to the right of mitt romney, so he can be -- and cain, whereas you might see cain and perry splitting the far right to screw romney. so whatever they've put in there, it's not real policy. >> so i'm supposed to sit here and act like this is a serious policy conversation is silly, just as some of obama's plans have been silly, this is silly. >> this is about politics. >> yes, i do agree with it, but i'll even take it a step further. this idea of closing loopholes and fixing our tax code has become buzz words now. we're looking for simple things. and now it has become a political buzz word. and it's easy, people understand it, and they say, oh, flat tax, oh, they must be working on the economy, as if that's meaningful. and that's -- it's now the new political -- >> it's just talking about jobs or talking about housing. >> it's for someone to turn into

noise in the air. >> it's so as a candidate you can say, i've got a plan. here's my plan. >> this is a democratic political person, this is a republican political person. i don't think anybody in america gives a flying crap about the politics of it. they just matter what their tax number is. >> right, but that's -- >> so let's not debate policy. listen, they're in the business of politics, i'm in the business of policy. i like policy. >> but policy is dictated by politicians, jimmy. >> but it shouldn't be! that's the whole damn point. >> should i clarify one thing? what i understood from the two of them was, they were saying, dylan, do not take these -- they were not saying, this is a policy conversation. they were educating me and others to say, this entire conversation is bs because they are playing politics. i think we all agree with you that we would like to the discuss policy, but i think we all also agree that this is not a policy conversation. i'm completely out of time by like 50 times more than i need

to be, and that's -- so i completely have to stop this conversation. but i do need to create enough time for you to offer a brief correction for a statement you made about the aarp. >> last week we had a conversation about money and politics and i said that the aarp has a pac and gives directly to candidates. they don't have a pac. they do lobby on issues, but they don't have a pac and they don't give directly to candidates. >> all right. we appreciate your clarification and your correction. i'm sure the aarp does as well. the panel stays. coming up, the air traffic controllers, ronald reagan, and how they may have changed america forever. time for the "your business" small business advice. here are tips to optimize your small business video content. choose the right place to host your content. third party sites like youtube will help maximize total views. keep it less than three minutes and attach a text transcript to your video. it lets search engines get a better read of your content. for more, watch "your business" sunday mornings at 7:30 on msnbc. [ male announcer ] this is lara.

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i must tell those who fail to report for duty this morning, they are in violation of the law and if they do not report for work within 48 hours, they have forfeited their jobs and will be terminated. end of statement. >> president reagan in 1981 laying down the gauntlet on a group of striking air traffic controllers, demanding that they return to their posts.

most refused and reagan fired 70% of them as a result. now, whether you agree or disagree with the way reagan handled the situation, his actions forever changed america's relationship with labor. and our next guest says 30 years on, from wisconsin to pro sports to teachers to manufacturing, the current contentious climate all goes back to 1981. and joining us now is joseph a. mccarton, associate professor of history at georgetown university, and author of "collision course: ronald reagan, the air traffic controllers, and the strike that changed america." professor, we've seen some individual companies, private companies, who will try to work without an us-and-them mentality. where there is not a union, but there is a policy of not firing anybody, ever. there is not a union, but there is a lined incentive between the ceo and the workers. i don't know what ultimately the solution is, but is there a way

to do this that gets rid of the us and them and creates cohesive units of people that work together across the entire corporations? >> well, i think that's right, dylan. there are some companies that try to work with their workers and arrive at accommodations with them. and i would also wradd that unis try to do that as well. i wouldn't characterize the entrance of the union into a workplace as necessarily creating an us versus them situation. in fact, unions have an interest in making sure employers remain profitable and healthy. i think we've seen that recently in the auto industry in the way the uaw has attempted to work with motors, and the other manufacturers to make sure those provide. >> except on the ford front, they refused to raise their dividend, which means the shareholders are getting a bit more benefit than labor at ford. >> i think that's absolutely

right. and that goes to one of the deep problems that we've faced for the last 30 years. and i do think that the patco strike has something to do with this. as ford and others were negotiating with unions this year, there really wasn't much threat that there would be a strike. in fact, strikes have fallen off the table in terms of a tool for american workers. even in situations where employers are not being very fair. workers are much less likely today to strike than they were in the years before patco. and so i think we start to see an imbalance develop in labor management relations, one in which we've seen profits grow remarkably over the last 30 years. corporate profits have more than doubled, while average wage increases are about 4% for the average production worker. and that, i think, has a lot to do with the inability of workers to really force management to give them more of the profits

that they're helping to make. >> jimmy? >> professor, i have a question. i'm from the south. and i'm a democrat. there aren't many of us left, but i'm one of them, okay? i think the general perception in the south, and many of those in right-to-work states is that labor unions have sort of outgrown their usefulness, i don't necessarily agree with that, but telling you my conversations with family members and friends i have grown up with. is there something to be said for the theory that labor unions for all intents and purposes don't really serve a purpose? i mean, if it was to stop kild labor, that's happened. if it was to ensure minimum wage, that's happened. the list could go on and long. ways to point today of a modern labor union in america's workforce, throughout the nation? >> well, i think, first of all, i would say about the south, that the south also has a history, jimmy, of strong union traditions. i would say that the mine workers' union, for example, a biracial union, that had a huge

impact on american labor history, was largely a southern union for much of its history. now, what do unions offer us today? i think one thing that unions can do is try to address this growing imbalance in income inequality in the country. where we've seen the top 1% take an increasing share of the growth and productivity that workers and labor helps to create. i think one of the things we have to find a way to do is to lift the incomes of working people in this country. incomes that have been stagnant now for the most part, for almost 30 years. unless we do that, it's hard for me to think we can have a sustainable economy going forward. >> professor, it strikes me, what you were just saying, what jimmy was say welcome is this us and them, as dylan was talking about, but yet in wisconsin, the governor there was counting on that when he attacked labor

unions. and yet the backlash was such that i think people remembered why labor unions are important. and i think you saw how powerfully people coming together to say, we're going to not let you do this. how do we take that kind of movement to other parts of the country when we're talking about what labor is fighting for in terms of workers rights and collective bargaining and what have you? >> karen, you make an excellent point. i think one of the very interesting things we saw happen in wisconsin, we saw many people rallying to the defense of public sector workers and their rights to collectively bargain, who don't enjoy collect i have bargaining themselves. i think what we saw there was an upwelling of feeling of many people who would love to have some kind of say over the terms and conditions over which -- or underwhich they work. now, how do you translate that upswelling of feeling that happened in wisconsin into a broad national movement? that will take a lot of work. and the labor movement clearly has its work cut out for it,

going forward. it has political challenges. it has economic challenges. but i sense a degree of ferment in wisconsin and also, quite frankly, in the recent occupy wall street protests, that may indicate that unions are starting to finally rows themselves after years of falling behind the curve. >> professor mccartin, thank you so much for your time today. the book, "collision course:ronald reagan, the air traffic controllers, and the strike that changed america." karen, susan, jimmy, thank you so much. susan gets two questions next time for those keeping track at home. coming up, space jam with new safety concerns being raised about the way we get our astronauts into orbit and back home. our conversation with commander mike fossome above the international space station, after this. hey buddy, wattaya lookin' a-oooh.

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follow space news know all too well, since the shuttle program ended in july, we've had to rely on russia to get our astronauts to and from the spaigs. in august, a soyuz rocket carrying supplies to the facing failed five minutes after launch the crashed into a siberian forest. in another five days, another soyuz supply mission is set for launch. if it fails, remember, the mission immediately prior to the august mission and hundreds of others have not failed, a manned flight in november could be scrapped, leaving america's mission to space up in the air. earlier we had the opportunity to speak with the international space station's commander mike fossome, live aboard the international space station. i began by asking how he keeps track of time and what exactly is going on up there. >> we get up at 6:00 in the morning, we really begin our work day about 8:00 in the morning, in earnest, and we work until about 7:00 at night and go to bed around 9:30, 10:00. so that's our clock. again, all based on gmt.

and the control centers around the globe, houston, moscow, munich, scuba, japan, all are working to that same clock. so they're displaced in their local times. they may be coming into work at midnight to start the day, and things like that. that's just one of the interesting aspects of working up here. >> you talk about the work. what specifically is it that you are working on? and why is developing a closed loop secure stable space system so important? >> we're working on a number of different things. you know, of course, there's a lot of -- the main reason we're here, the main reason the space station was built to conduct the different science speerms that are ongoing right now. we have many of them that are ongoing. some of them we're interacting, some we're tending, we're changing out the samples while the scientists on the ground are changing out the furnaces and the combustion chambers, things

like that. another thing that we're doing with the space station, it's really huge, it's really interesting, is we're developing the systems for long duration operation in space. so the space station itself and its functioning systems, are test beds. we're learning from these different seasons. right now in earth orbit, we're -- somebody could theoretically get to us, and you know, after about nine minutes worth of launch, some rendezvous time, usually it takes a couple of days, and we could have another ship here. if we're on the way to mars, we don't have any way of getting parts up here quickly. and you have to go self-sufficient, because nobody's going to be coming to help you out in any way. so we have to have systems that operate for a long period of time. one of the real limiting factors is, of course, everything's about the weight or the mass in space. water weighs what water weighs. and you need -- you can only

launch so much water, you know, a kilogram per liter, and it's a lot. you can't dehydrate your water, you can't put it in a foil pack. >> they don't have powdered water. >> you don't have powdered water. so you need to recycle as much as that water as possible. that's a fairly new system for us here on the u.s. part of the space station, where we actually recycle, we take a lot of the -- most of the water out of urine waste and the condensation from just our breathing and our sweating gets collected in the air-conditioning system here as condensate, and these -- this water, this recovered water then is recycled, purified, certified, double checked, and then we drink it again. and that's really important. and this kind of a system, it has to work flawlessly. up here, of course, we check it a lot and we have some options. we can go without purifying water for months if we needed to, we have supplies on board, but the we're on the way to

mars, that kind of a system needs to work without getting some kind of bugs in it or, you know, microbial growth in it that really knocks the system out of bawhack. we're a testbed for systems like that too. >> are you anticipating with your awareness of the current science and the current ability that in our lifetime, we will see a manned mission to another planet? >> i'm convinced that i will see, you know, human footprints on mars. i dreamed about helping put those footprints there one day. i don't think that's likely to line up right now, but i still think we're going to see it. it's very compelling. mars is just fascinating for so many reasons. we know, fairly certainly, mars used to have liquid water. if it used to have liquid water, it used to have an atmosphere. it's got to in order for the water to be liquid, or it just boils off. it no longer has liquid water on the surface. it no longer has a significant amount of atmosphere.

what happened? what changed? that's important for us to know. i mean, there's a scientific curiosity of understanding these things better, but it's also, i think, important. because talk about global climate change on mars, wow. there used to be enough atmosphere to support water and there no longer is. that was a very big change. be very interesting, very useful to know what caused that kind of a change to a planet. >> the commander also told us he never expected to ride on a russian rocket to space, so who knows what outer space will look like and what we'll be doing 20 to 30 years from now. next up here, the president to announce his new student loan program tomorrow. we've got an early look at the details. and a guest who can tell us whether he thinks it can actually help. in wireless technology. with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster: smartphones, laptops, tablets, mobile hotspots. but not all 4g is created equal. among the major carriers,

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options for loan forgiveness and loan repayment. our next guest says the plan is not enough and that the student debt is actually keeping america's best and brightest shackled to wall street, causing what he calls a brain drain in our country. we're breaking it down today with matthew siegel, president and cofounder of our time. you can get lost in opinion, thinking this is my opinion or your pin or the president's opinion. we're not in an opinion market here. there is a mathematical amount of student death. there's a mathematical inflation rate in the amount of education. there's a defined fact that banks are recruiting from these institutions and to the conversation we were having right before the commercial break, when you look at the size of the debt load we're putting on our college graduates and look at how much more participating in the bank extraction pays compared to trying to fight against the trend by doing something else, a lot of folks don't even -- you can't blame them.

>> well, you made my argument, for the most part. >> i'm sorry. >> i mean, we launched stop the brain drain.org as a petition site to essentially say that our college campuses are being bought off by these big wall street firms who are getting preferred access to the best and brightest students. now, obviously, what that does -- >> the banks actually pay money to the recruiting office. >> what that does is take away the people who are most likely to be entrepreneurs and start companies, like in our buy young initiative, which we talked about -- >> i love that, yeah. >> and instead make them financial instruments for banks. and to calculate the derivatives and do the credit default swaps. >> young math me technicians. >> that's problem one. problem two is you can't blame them. when you're graduating $70,000, $80,000, $90,000 in deatbt, of course you'll want to take the highest paying job. the president did a good job on

the executive order, which is very limited. like you said, it doesn't go to the symptom of the problem in general, which is that, why the is higher education so expensive? and the reason for that is plenty, but, a, they've become huge corporate institutions and the banking industry with the student loan hikes they can get from it have realized, well, let's, you know, encourage more and more people to go to college and keep inflating rates. the cost of college has outgrown the cost of living tremendously. >> and when you're basically giving loans to 18-year-olds under the threat if they don't take the loan, you're not going to have a life, what loan wouldn't you take? >> that's one. but the other reason is, colleges are like our politicians, competing to raise money. and so college career centers and college administrators are ranked the best based on their endowment. that's how the u.s. news ranking works. the highest endowment wins. they're holding on to their cash, as opposed to making that

cash available to people who otherwise can't afford money for scholarships and grant money. and the last and final thing is 47 states have cut higher education in their budget squeezes. well, why is that? because seniors outvote young people 2 to 1. when they're deciding what they're going to cut, there's less consequences for cutting education. so those are all the different issues. >> and where would you begin a process, where can we begin the process of correcting this? >> well, i think, for one, you know, we need to begin to look at new ways to make college more affordable. whether it's free community college, whether it's making sure that we have more vocational training. people need to look where there's demand in the market. there's no longer demand to be a journalist. there is demand to be a scientist or mathematician or stem feel field. most of the people we brought to

washington for our buy young initiative were saying, well, we can't get talent. that's our biggest barrier. we can't attract engineers and scientists and ctos to help program our tech -- >> but how much of the inability to attract those people is because those same people are being offered more money to go work at jpmorgan? >> that's a huge -- it is sucking entrepreneurship dry in this country, and that's why we launched, stop the brain drain. >> and if you were to look at what other people -- if you just wanted to educate yourself, if you wanted to learn more about this, where would you point people to understand, perhaps, a little better why college is costing as much as it is and how dangerous the brain drain is? >> well, i actually reference people to my friend who wrote the book "generation debt." she does financial work in this area. but also, it's st stopthebraindrain.org, there's facts and figures that talk about why this might be happening, and why the higher education bubble, almost $1 trillion of student loan debt,

almost exceeds the credit card debt in this country. and that's not dischargeable in bankruptcy court. and the student borrowers in this country don't have the same right that people in credit card debt have in this country. >> i forget who it was, there's some comedian who was saying that if osama bin laden had a student loan, they would have had him on september 12th. >> that's absolutely right. that's very true. >> so you can attribute that one to jeff chrysler and use it as you see fit. thank you for bringing this issue forward once again. i look forward to seeing you sooner than later. >> likewise. >> matt siegel, our time. coming up on "hardball," keeping america safe. chris asking whether the president is getting enough credit. but first, david goodfriend with a daily rant on the world series and a team love ordinary hated, but never ignored. [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition?

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before we get to the daily rant, a fair warning. if you hate the yankees, you're going to very much enjoy the next 2 1/2 minutes of programming here on msnbc. however, if you like the yankees, do please keep in mind that the opinions expressed by one david goodfriend are his and his alone. and now the daily rant. >> thank you, dylan. baseball. it's america's pastime. a game we all played as kids. the game where presidents throw the first pitch and magical corn fields in iowa produce long-deceased heroes of the diamond. a game we love so much that even the supreme court gave its very own anti-trust exemption. and what can be more all-american than the world series, which is going on right now between st. louis and the texas rangers. even those team names evoke

something uniquely american. missouri versus texas. rust belt versus sun belt. truman versus bush. but what i like most about this year's series isn't the teams that are in it, it's the fact that we don't have to watch the new york yankees. you see, the yankees are without a doubt the wealthiest team in major league baseball, unlike other sports leagues, baseball has no salary cap, it has no real revenue sharing. it basically says to the teams from the biggest media markets, go ahead, make as much money as you can, and spend as much of it as you want to buy the best players, even if you don't put them in your starting lineup. this injustice is what that brad pitt movie "moneyball," based on michael lewis' book of the same name is all about. so it's no surprise that year after year the yankees make it to the playoffs, the yankees make it to the world series, the yankees win the world series, the yankees get the best rookies, and on and on and on.

this year, though, something happened. the yankees, whose very pinstriped uniforms evoke the wall street financiers that made their town famous, lost in the playoffs to the detroit tigers. new york lost to detroit?! that's like a ferrari losing a drag race to a ford f-150 pickup. but it happened. the town with one of the worst unemployment rates in the u.s. beat the town with the biggest bonuses. it was baseball drama at its best. but i think there's something else going on here. i think the god's of baseball have whispering a message that if we listen carefully, we'll hear. sometimes the little guy does win. sometimes a city like detroit that was brought to its knees can find redemption. maybe baseball's whispering to those small businesses, trying to get access to capital. hey, keep fighting. fight smarter and you can win.

or maybe the god's of baseball are yelling down at the wall street banksters, hey, don't get too comfy. either way, i'll enjoy watching the rest of the world series and not seeing pinstripes. dyl dylan? >> you know, where will i go with this in 60 seconds? here's where i will go. there is clearly a message in this that might does not make right. that having an abundance of resources and spending them stupidly, a la, i don't know a country that spends the most money in the world on health care, but comes in 30th, spends the most money on education, but comes in 30th or whatever it is, and we're obviously in a learning curve period where you can get a lot more for a lot less. that seems to be where this is headed. >> yes, dylan, but also, it's about fairness, right? sometimes it looks as though the deck is completely stacked against you. and that's