those of us at home, those of us that seek only the rights to earn a living like anybody else at the top. happy birthday, lady liberty. they're trying to dim your light. there are those of us that keep letting it shine and want it to shine for another 125 years. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton, "hardball" starts right now. flipping out. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, mitt flips again. mitt romney is becoming a parody of himself. just three days ago, he said he had no position on an anti-union measure out in ohio and then lurched into reverse the next

day, saying, why, of course he was 110% behind the issue. well, if romney's serial flip-flopping has embarrassed him, he isn't showing it. romney's now disavowing his long-held position that the earth is getting warmer and that humans are partly to blame. he now says, quote, we don't know what's causing climate change. and he says, we should not try to reduce carbon emissions. seriously, can you believe anything this guy says? does he even he believe what he says? >> plus, could newt gingrich become the first openly mean president? that's the clever question posed by our own david corn from mother jones. very quietly, again, the figure has been slithering his way up the polls. if herman cain collapses as so many expect him to do, could newt become the next anti-romney? the republicans certainly need one. also, marco rubio's problems may extend well beyond the self-inflicted damage of his embellished biography.

he may just be on the wrong side of the immigration issue for too many latino voters. and a tea party group says michele bachmann is all about one thing -- michele bachmann, and it's time for her to g-o. let me finish tonight with jack kennedy and how he could never figure out texas, even at the end. we start with the latest flip-flop from mitt romney. susan page is the washington bureau chief for "usa today," and steve kornacki, welcome back, steve kornacki! i haven't seen you in a while. he's with salon.com, seriously, i mean it. here's the latest flip-flop from romney. he was asked this summer what his position was on manmade global warming. let's listen to his response. >> i don't speak for the scientific community, of course, but i believe the world's getting warmer. i can't prove that, but i believe, based on what i read, that the world is getting warmer. and number two, i believe that humans contribute to that. i don't know how much our contribution is to that, because i know there's been periods of greater heat and warmth in the past, but i believe that we contribute to that.

and so i think it's important for us to reduce our emissions of pollutants and greenhouse gases that may well be significant contributors to the climate change and the global warming that you're seeing. >> and now let's listen to what governor romney had to say yesterday. here's the flip. >> my view is that we don't know what's causing climate change on this planet and the idea of spending trillions and trillions of dollars to try to reduce co2 emissions is not the right course for us. >> i'm beginning to think that the question for mitt romney should be, what are you coming as? like on halloween. what are you coming as tonight? let me go to susan page. what are you coming as tonight? there he is with his shirt on, saying there's climate change, manmade contributing to it, which is a reasonable scientific fact. and then he's just flipping completely, as if he had never given it any thought. >> and his campaign has sent me

an e-mail saying he hasn't changed positions, that he continues to believe that there is climate change and he believes humans contribute to it, but he's not sure by how much. but that's not exactly what he said in this most recent appearance. and one thing with romney -- >> why's he doing this? there's a logic to this. why does he go 180 back and forth? >> i don't think it's a 180. i think it's a more modest tweak than this. but i think what he said in your first clip is unacceptable to some republicans. he's trying to emphasize his conservative side of his message. but we're so ready. he's so vulnerable on the issue of flip-flopping, because he has flip-flopped on issues like abortion rights and other fundamental -- >> health care. everything. >> health care. that it makes him very vulnerable. people are ready to see a flip-flop wherever they can. >> let me go to steve. you haven't been on in a while. i want your fresh thinking on this. why does he fear the right? here's a guy who is going up in new hampshire, he's up at 40% now. he should win there. he doesn't have a consistently threatening opponent. i mean, right now, it's herman cain, but it doesn't look like he's got staying power. no one person seems to be able to beat him. why doesn't he just stick to where he's been, say, look, i'm

a moderate conservative, that's where the country is. >> well, you know, i think, first of all, it's an open question if really in his heart of hearts, he's a moderate conservative. if you go all the way back at the start of his political career 17 years ago, for all the flip-flopping, the one constant is, whatever he's doing and whatever he's saying at any particular moment always seems to line up with what he perceives to be his political imperative of the moment. that's why i think you can sort of draw a direct line between today and between what happened earlier this week in ohio. >> what does he think politics is? i mean, this is a -- you've hit on a fundamental point. if he thinks politics is simply going before an audience and basically being a hooker in a sense, a political hooker, and giving them what they want, the party they want. literally. you want to hear this? i'll say this. that's certainly not leadership. but what kind of politics would that be? just saying what the audience wants to hear, literally? because that's what you just said. >> sure. and i think if he becomes president, it's a question of whatever he perceives at any given moment in his presidency

to be sort of his imperative of the moment. >> what would his role be, then? it's not leader. >> of course not. that's the open question. that's why you can read the question of, is he a secret moderate, is he really a conservative? you can read it two ways, because maybe he becomes president and feels he has to serve the tea party. maybe the republicans are running the house or the senate, and he's the conservative president. because he feels all the pressure from the right. all the pressure from his own party. but the threat and risk if you're a conservative or you're a tea partier and you're looking at this guy is, well, maybe that could happen. but maybe he's president and he sees more of an imperative, more of an incentive to cut deals with democrats and be more of a moderate, compromising president. and whether you're a swing voter in the middle or part of the republican base, the fundamental thing is, you don't know. >> okay. you report this in a straight fashion, obviously, susan. does anybody ever come up to him and say, i know this is a trick question, is there anything you won't change on? anything you're rock hard on? this is like man for all seasons. almost a morality play.

are there any issues where you just say, look, i'm willing to lose on this one. capital punishment, abortion rights, usual issues people are very strong on one way or the other. does he got anything like that? >> the issues he's talks about as his core issues, the ones he's focusing on this time are the economic issues like tax policy and regulation and so on. >> you mean, he's generally anti-government. >> but it isn't it both to hits strength and weakness? he's trying to physician to get elected, and that's not what voters appreciate 1234 why do voters appreciate herman cain when he, who has, himself, had come down on several sides on issues -- >> they feel he's basically a regular guy that's never been to washington. this boneless wonder here, this double-jointedness this guy's pulling off, on every issue. here's romney, by the way, he had a spectacular reversal on this ohio thing, which means so much to people out there, they're really going to vote hot

on this. on tuesday, romney visited the ohio gop phone bank, where callers were urging voters to back the law and sounded not entirely supportive anymore. let's listen to how his bones that don't seem to be there in his body. let's listen. >> i'm not speaking about the particular ballot issues. those are up to the people of ohio, but i certainly support the effort of the governor to rein in the scale of government. so i'm not terribly familiar with the two ballot initiatives, but i'm certainly supportive of the republican party's efforts. >> guy's like a whirling dervish. and then he goes to his staff guy, help me out on this. on wednesday, romney said this. let's listen. >> i fully support governor kasich's, i think it's called question two, in ohio. fully support that. when i was referring to was i know there are other ballot

questions there in ohio, and i wasn't taking a position on those. one of them, for instance, relates to health care and mandates. with regards to question two, which is the collective bargaining question, i am 110% behind governor kasich and in support of that question. >> you know, it's like he offsets his gyrations by saying, i'm now 110%, like 110 proof or something. i don't know how you can be 110% for something, but why does he shift from ambivalence and confusion to absolutely certainty plus? >> that's -- i think that's a perfect illustration of what happened in ohio this week of the shifting imperatives that i'm talking about and how they define whatever romney's saying and doing. because on tuesday, when he said, you know, he wasn't really taking a position, he was thinking like a general election candidate. he was thinking like the guy who's way ahead in new hampshire, who really doesn't have a serious rival on the republican side right now, and who thinks he's going to be the nominee. and he's in ohio, a big swing state. he's talking about an issue that's very divisive and very unpopular in ohio and doesn't want to take a position and gets all cute. but then what happens? there's a torrent of abuse from all these vocal conservatives

saying, he's selling us out, this is why we can't nominate him, and he starts thinking about those 70% of republicans that still won't come to his side in polls, so his imperative shifts and he's got to go back to the primary, so he goes back to, oh, i'm 110% for this. how could you ever think otherwise? that's what conservatives are wondering. he can say all the right things in the world right now and say them very persuasively, but the minute he gets the nomination, will he start acting like that guy who was in ohio on tuesday? >> he comes across as a rolling class sort of person. not completely putting him down, but his dad was governor, he was governor. his dad ran for president and washed out. he wants to make it all the way. we've seen this story before. remember is it anyway, romney's long list of flip-flops have become fodder for his gop rivals. here's a new ad by jon huntsman who clearly doesn't like this fellow. let's watch. >> i believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. >> that i have been consistently been pro-life. >> when he took office, the economy was in recession and he made it worse. >> i didn't say that things were worse.

>> look, i was an independent of the time of reagan/bush. i'm not trying to return to reagan/bush. >> which is to pursue the strategy that ronald reagan pursued. >> we do have tough gun laws in massachusetts, i support them. >> and i would protect our second amendment rights to bear arms. >> and you know, chris, these are the things he thought he was past. the most devastating clips are really from things where he was running in massachusetts, and things he had to go through four years ago, when he was running for president. they haven't haunted him in the same way this time, but to revive him, raises all the same old questions about his core convictions. >> what happens when a really good debate moderator, maybe jim l event -- lehrer gets him on the stage, which one of these is you, what are you going as tonight, governor? what are you today? >> you know, the clip you just played there on the abortion one, and if you play that full thing, i think that's the most devastating, when you look at the flip-flops that have defined

romney, because when he was running in massachusetts back in 1994 for the senate, he didn't just say he was pro-choice, he went so far out of his way to drive that point home. he talked about a close personal family member dying from a back alley abortion, and how that had filled him with that conviction that this is never any of the government's business because it causes tragedies like this. he goes from that for now basically calling for a return of the legal conditions that brought about the death of his relative. there's never been an accounting for that. it's a totally phony story about his conversion. >> if you're going to be converting, show us how it happened. conservative columnist george welles says romney's flip-flops are becoming a problem for the entire political party, the republicans. here's what he writes in his column this weekend, we got a tease of it. it was previewed by politico. "romney, supposedly the republican most electable next november is a res

november is a recidivist revisor of his principles, who is not only becoming less electable, he might damage gop chances of capturing the senate. republican successes down the ticket will depend on the energies of the tea party and other conservatives who will be deflated by a nominee whose blurry profile in caution communicates only calculated trimming. republicans may have found their michael dukakis, a technocratic massachusetts governor who takes his bearings from data." you know, trimming is a terrible term in politics. >> dukakis is not such a great term either. >> but tip o'neill says, trim, and beat it, would be next. it was not a nice thing to call somebody. you can imagine the massachusetts accent. you don't want to be a trimmer. a trimmer is someone you can never trust to stand with you, stand against you. he was always trimming. he was always moving from place to place to protect his keister. anyway, thank you, susan page, you're so smart. and steven kornacki, welcome back. coming up, can newt gingrich, mr. mephistopheles himself, become the next mean president? that's a question posed by our

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today is the filing deadline in new mexico, the last day for candidates to get on the ballot in the first in the nation primary. rick perry was one of the candidates to file in person today, but candidate gary johnson, the former governor of new hampshire, didn't expected to be there. johnson's campaign missed an earlier deadline to allow third parties to file on behalf of candidates. so johnson, who was campaigning in arizona yesterday, traveled to new hampshire to file in person today. we'll be right back. the world needs more energy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world.

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welcome back to "hardball." a recent uptick in the polls for newt gingrich has him running third now among republican

candidates, even ahead of former front-runner, rick perry. so is newt just the flavor of the week to be? the latest anti-romney candidate? or is it possible a man this angry could actually become president of the united states? david corn is the washington bureau chief for mother jones. his piece today asked just this question, can newt become the first openly mean president, as in openly gay, anyway. and alex wagner is also with us, an msnbc political analyst. you chuckle about it as well as i do, alex. and i'm chuckling, because that's always been my observation about newt. he's an opportunistic to exploit any opportunity to hate the other side. >> if you go over his history, he has decades of angry rhetoric, not just excessive political rhetoric. you might recall the days when he said of tip o'neill, your old boss, he doesn't know the difference between freedom and slavery. he used to counsel other republicans to call democrats

traitors. i mean, again and again, we know what he's done with barack obama, and if you go back and you think about our presidents, some of the mean, behind the scenes, certainly richard nixon, but in their sort of public personas, whether it's reagan or bill clinton or barack obama, they're not mean personally. they don't go for the angry, excessive attack rhetoric, so maybe andrew jackson was pretty mean when he was president, but we don't really elect these type of people to the highest office in the land. so newt would really be breaking a barrier. >> i think it's a fair question. would you want a guy as president who likes wrestling in a cesspool? that's what this guy is. both sides can get dirty and he can be a little less dirty, dirtier than the other guy. he doesn't want to run on a clean field, this guy. >> no. and let's also keep in mind that this guy is someone who has recently fearmongered over islam and sharia law. his comments about the community center down at ground zero were incredibly inflammatory. he's someone who has invoked the memory of auschwitz when talking about democratic policies and politics. i mean, he's incredibly

inflammatory. and then, of course, you have his political record and what happened when he was speaker of the house, the ethics charges, his philandering, and most recently, you know, $500,000 in tiffany's debt. there are a lot of holes in newt gingrich presidential campaign. >> well, here's a history of his abrasive comments. listen to what he told "national review" last year about president obama. "what if obama is so outside our comprehension that only if you understand kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together his actions? that is the most accurate predictive model for his behavior. this is a person who is fundamentally out of touch with how the world works, who happened to have played a wonderful con, as a result of which he's now president." so he's a kenyan, also a street corner hustler, a con artist. he's managed to use all the ethnic aspects of barack obama against him. >> and he keeps calling him a food stamp president as well. this guy who has a kenyan

perspective -- >> never was kenyan. >> he got osama bin laden, he got gadhafi. it doesn't make sense even within the rules of reality. my point, besides what alex is saying about all the baggage he has, he has more baggage than a steamship, but nevertheless, he just has a mean persona that most politicians tend to hide or paper over when they're campaigning. >> he works the dark side. here he is earlier this year with cbn's david brody who asked newt about his past and he gave an awfully strange reason for his marital infidelity. this will go down in history as my favorite, favorite cover story. let's listen. >> there's no question that at times in my life, partially driven by how passionately i felt about this country, that i worked far too hard, and that things happened in my life that were not appropriate. and what i can tell you is that when i did things that were wrong, i wasn't trapped in situation ethics.

i was doing things wrong, and yet i was doing them. i felt compelled to seek god's forgiveness. >> here he is explaining his infidelity through a couple of marital problems and marriages with his passionate feeling for the country. the old phrase, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. i've never heard it quite used this way. >> and a cheat, right? >> i don't want to get into that, because it's not our line of country, but to use it in a political context, alex, you take this on, who does he think is buying that nonsense? >> the star-spangled banner made him do it? >> who would believe that? >> it's complete poppycock, because he has nothing else to hide under. as someone who launches ethics investigation and used that to speakerdom, and thusly unseated for his own philandering. it made no sense, it was hilarious, i think, when he said it. the reason newt gingrich is seeing a resurgence in the polls is because fundamentally this gir field is wildly unsettled.

and all i can think of is one of veal enviennes waltzes, where everyone changes partners every chord. and rick santorum will probably be the flavor of the month in a couple of weeks. >> i was thinking of the viennese waltz reference myself, too just kidding! >> i was thinking of musical chairs. >> in recent national polls, in both newt gingrich has risen to first place. the fox news poll has gingrich at 12 just behind cain and romney. similar numbers in "the new york times"/cbs poll, where gingrich has a 10% to cain's 25 and romney's 21. there he is up there with the top three. one of the most memorable moments of the gingrich campaign, back in may, "face the nation" -- i love bob schieffer, but this is more proof of how good he is. he grilled newt over his spending at tiffany's.

let's listen again to newt. >> you owed between $250,000 and $500,000 to a jewelry company. what was that about, mr. speaker? >> well, first of all, it's about obeying the law. >> did you owe $500,000 to a jewelry company at one point? >> we had a revolving fund. >> what does that mean? >> it means that we had a revolving fund. that -- >> i mean, who buys $500,000 worth of jewelry on credit? >> no, it's a -- go talk to tiffany's. >> it's very odd to me that someone would run up $500,000 bill at a jewelry store. >> well, go talk to tiffany's. >> i mean, you're running for president. you're going to be the guy in charge of the treasury department, and it just sticks out like a sore thumb. >> you know -- >> the utter reasonableness of bob schieffer, with that flat texas accent, the way he just asks the most obvious human questions, and the other guy just finally cannot even b.s. his way out of it. all he can say is, talk to

tiffany's, is all he can say. >> he probably should have said, ask my wife. >> oh, no! not going to do that. >> but, listen -- >> she may be expensive, but she's not available for this kind of stuff. >> if you look at the answer he gave there and the answer he gave on marital fidelity, it shows he has a sort of sense of being above it all. like he thinks he can cut -- like he cut corners -- >> can't get away from bob. >> it did not work. but this is a guy who for 30 years has had this sort of arrogant, egotistical complex that allows him to accuse other people of being like nazis and he can't even answer a question about tiffany's. >> well said. to bob schieffer! anyway, thank you, david corn and alex wagner. have a nice weekend. >> thanks, chris. up next, you know it's bad for michele bachmann when even tea party leaders aren't taking your presidential campaign to heart or even seriously anymore. she's in the sideshow. i think she's never getting out of the sideshow now. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up, spark and fizzle. why has that been the pattern on polling numbers for many candidates in the 2012 republican field. well, mitt romney has been hovering around 23% since back in 2008. well, let's see how "the daily show" cracked the code behind that one on last night's show. >> when it comes to his polling numbers, mitt romney has been nothing if not consistent, which is interesting, given that in every other regard, he has been shockingly inconsistent. how has he managed to neither gain nor lose support? he has clearly surveyed the republican field and decided, i think 23% is enough to beat any

of these yahoos. >> we're going to have a fence. it's going to be electrocuted -- electrified. and there's going to be a sign on the other side that says, it will kill you! >> african-americans have been brainwashed. >> so you're saying any community, if they want to ban a mosque? >> yes, they have the right to do that. >> that's why romney doesn't have to really say anything. his strategy in the debates should just be, hey, man, i'm here, but i cede my time. >> so the secret is, leave the crazy talk to everyone else. next up, losing the last straw, as gop candidate michele bachmann went from 2012 front-runner to lagging far behind, the likes of herman cain and mitt romney. her fail-safe support group has always been the tea party. well, even though tides might be turning against her. a recent letter from the president of american majority, a tea party group, to its members reads, "in bachmann's case, it is clear that the campaign has become less about reform and more about her personal effort to stay relevant and sell books. a harsh commentary, but true.

it's not about tea party values or championing real plans to solve real problems while other campaigns are diving into the substance, the supposed tea party candidate, bachmann, sticking to thin talking points and hanging on for dear life." how do you like that? and she's the founder of the congressional tea party caucus. and to round out the week, there's no denying it. as if the numbers couldn't sink any lower, this week's cbs news/"new york times" poll had approval for congress, the united states congress, at 9%. and the representatives themselves can't hide from the news. how are they reacting? well, a tweet from senator john mccain read, "congressional approval at all-time low of 9%. we're down to paid staffers and blood relatives." well, paid staffers and blood relatives, does that one sound a bit familiar? apparently it's been somewhat of a go-to tagline for mccain since as early as 2006, five years ago.

how about some flashbacks? >> there was a major poll just a couple of days ago that showed the approval rating of congress at 13%. you get down that low, you get down to blood relatives and paid staffers. >> i think they're down now on approval rating to paid staffers and blood relatives. >> anyone know anyone in the 12 or 13% range? we're down to blood relatives and paid staffers. >> you get down to paid staffers and blood relatives. >> the only people that approve of us are blood relatives and paid staffers. >> paid staffers -- and blood relatives. >> blood relatives and paid staffers. >> blood relatives and paid staffers. >> okay. to me, the only thing more possibly depressing to being down to paid staffers and blood relatives is to be down to just saying you're down to paid staffers and blood relatives. up next, marco rubio may have bigger problems than his exaggerated family history. he may just be on the wrong side of the immigration issue for just too many latino voters around this country. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

here's what's happening. the loan guaranties after it loaned half a billion to a california solar company that went on to declare bankruptcy. more than 50 people were arrested after clearing the civic center of wall street protesters who had been camped out for about three weeks. bank of america is putting together a list of ways that customers can avoid paying a proposed fee on debit charges. say it ain't snow already. winter storm watches are in effect as the northeast braces for the first taste of winter this weekend. meanwhile, the statue of liberty marked its 125th anniversary today with a parade of ships, celebrity speakers and a naturalization ceremony for 125

immigrants. finally, the knabb is cancelling another two weeks of regular-season play with players and owners locked in an increasingly bitter contract dispute. now back to "hardball." back to "hardball." one week ago today, "the washington post" broke that story that marco rubio was actually the son of immigrants, not cuban exiles, as he said. it was a significant error in a political biography that put heavy emphasis on his son of exile story line. "the wall street journal" reported, "many in the gop think florida senator marco rubio can help the party appeal to swing-state hispanic voters possibly as vice presidential nominee, but with a position on immigration that opposes a path to citizenship for illegal aliens,

and opposing the dream act, which would provide a chance for some undocumented youth to become legal, how big of a draw would he have been among hispanic voters? joining me now is luis gutierrez, and congresswoman loretta sanchez, democrat of california. thank you very much, members of congress, joining us on this. it seems to me we've got a very interesting thing here. now, this fellow, this member of the united states senate, he initially was criticized for portraying that his parents filed after -- fled after castro took control in cuba. in fact, as of friday of last week, his senate biography, official biography read, in 1971, marco was born to cuban-born parent who is came to america following fidel castro's takeover, which is not true. the biography was only changed after the revelations about the time his family moved to the united states, and now reads, marco was born in '71 to cuban exiles who first arrived

in the united states in '56. so they're correcting the record once caught. congressman gutierrez, your thinking as a democrat for the midwest, what does this mean to his marketability as a national candidate? >> well, number one, look, marco rubio's parents came here as immigrants. that is his mom and his dad applied for a visa, got a green card, because they were seeking a better future for themselves. new jobs, economic prosperity. not because they were fleeing a totalitarian regime there. it's interesting that although he benefited from that very generous immigration prophesy, now he wants to take the drawbridge and say, sorry, no more need apply or come by. he stayed silent while in alabama, they passed the most draconian kind of show-me law. i mean, in alabama today, chris, an undocumented woman taking her

two american citizen children to a library to apply for library cards commits two felonies. you can't walk without being discriminated against in alabama. 1070, he supports that there. so he's out of line given -- >> why does he do that? why is he so anti-immigrant or -- >> because he wants to appeal to a broader base of people. he doesn't look at -- he wants to tie himself, chris, what he does try to tie himself to is the refugee community that exists in miami, right? he wants to tie himself to that. listen, you want to know something? we have granted the most generous immigration policy. it's almost impossible to come from cuba illegally to the united states. the most generous -- we opened our arms to them and embrace them, as well we should, and yet he turns his back on others who seek nothing but a better future in this country themselves.

>> congresswoman, give us your sense from this out west in california, where most people who come from the united states come from the south. what do you think the feeling is about this guy rubio who's been exposed as another person who came here because of economics? >> well, i would agree with my colleague's comments. he got caught, his family obviously came for the same reason that so many families come, from mexico, from central america, from south america, from europe, from asia. people want an opportunity here. and unfortunately, there's a big divide between how, for example, cubans get to the united states and have a very generous package of ability to become a united states citizen whereas, for example, mexicans don't. and so, when you look at the southwest, you're really looking at a predominantly mexican-american community. you are looking at people who have fled, really fled, areas

like el salvador and guatemala and honduras, nicaragua, when they really did have dictators there. and yet did not, in many ways, get the same benefits that a cuban might if he fled fidel castro's home. i completely agree with luis gutierrez. i mean, it's a double face. i mean, he wants to -- he wants to look tough on immigration because he's a republican, but the reality is that he benefited, as so many immigrants have benefited over the couple hundred years of the united states. this is a place that does better when we allow people to come here to work and seek a better life. >> an editorial in today's "palm beach post" about rubio says the following, "the real issue is whether senator rubio sought to create the incorrect impression knowing the precise year of his

parents' aival, but placing it on the wrong side of the cuban revolution is an error that, if not intentionally misleading, is egregiously care." congressman gutierrez, could it this isn't exactly about immigration, but ideology. could it be the reason he's saying his parents came here after castro, is his national ambitions? he's saying, here's a way of identifying myself not as an immigrant, but an anti-communist. therefore, the right wing all across the country will say, he's one of us. he may look latin-american, but he's really one of us, because he's a right wing. his parents came her fighting castro, when he completely confected that. >> sure. because he is then embraced by a broader, more conservative political community and those are his credentials, right? his bona fides. he comes, he understands that, when we now know that's completely -- but moreover, just

think about it, chris, think about the millions, probably, who have come here, because they have fled totalitarian regimes, because they have faced death, because they have faced dictatorships. and they've come here to this country. i mean, when i think of what he does, shame on him. shame on him for all of the great people and the great standard that america is in embracing those that don't have freedom in other countries that he would exploit that for political purposes and for political gain, just speaks volumes about why he's really not fit to speak about an immigrant community or to our latino community in any form of leadership. >> i hope some day we get this problem solved in a fair way. we've got to go, pretty much, congresswoman, but one last thought, quickly? >> i'm just saying that, you know, from a latino perspective across the united states, they probably won't trust him after this. i mean, we really need leadership, not somebody who makes up a resume.

>> well said. thank you very much, congressman luis gutierrez and my old friend, congresswoman -- who is a young person, but an old friend, loretta sanchez. >> thank you, chris. thank you. up next, in search of superspy, william kolbe, one of the most controversial cia directors in history, we'll talk to his son who's just done a big documentary, "the man who nobody knew." this is "hardball," only on msnbc. well, it looks like mitch

well, it looks like mitch mcconnell's on the losing end. of a big battle over college sports. the big 12 conference, which includes schools like texas, oklahoma, and kansas needed to find a replacement for the university of missouri, which is trying to leave the conference. well, earlier this week, word leaked that the replacement school would be west virginia. senator mcconnell made a late push on behalf of his alma mater, louisville. that raised the ire of west virginia fans and senator joe manchin threatened a senate investigation if any lawmaker

stood in the way of the mountaineers' move. i've been to some of those games, by the way. today it's official, west virginia is going into the big 12. score one for joe manchin over mitch mcconnell. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be. ♪ because your moment is now. let nothing stand in your way. learn more at keller.edu.

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missing since april 27th. his canoe was found washed up on the banks of the river. >> my father was a soldier. he jumpediesoldier. he jumped out of airplanes. people who turn to me and say, your dad was a murderer, my immediate reaction used to be, you don't know what you're talking about. then i'd find myself thinking, was he? well, who was he really? >> the cia and its director was always caught between doing the wish of the president and the law. and when the president said, do this, do that, the law got set aside. >> my daughter live efather livf secrets, always watching, listening, his eye on the door. by the time i turned 30, i came to understand the man nobody knew, or at least i thought i did. >> joining me, the son of william colby and emmy award winning filmmaker of "the man nobody knew."

thanks for coming on. st unusual territory for us, but spying, courageous, patriotic service to your country, with no credit. if you're caught, you're hanged. explain that. why is a spy good for your country but the other country has the right to hang them in most igminious way? >> we progress openness and freedom and want a free exchange of ideas. you're training others to ask others to -- >> who's the most famous ever? nathan hale. >> my father put a statue up of nathan hale at cia. what happened to nathan hale? he was captured and hanged. that's the sacrifice. there are men, wile, lift off tonight, leaving for somalia, yemen, going who knows where. >> what's your sense of your father's limits? was he willing to overthrow a

left wing government. >> i think he was willing to do that. >> it caused a big controversy between he and helms. helms said, i had nothing to do with it. >> recently we learned he did commit suicide based on the evidence, but we overthrew him. let's go through the list. guatema guatemala, iran. >> right. >> did all this. we overthrew -- we put the -- we put him in there, right? we overthrew a democratic government and began this whole cycle of hell over there against us. >> i think we were reacting in the cold war to the soviet beast. even in the '70s, think about it, 30,000 cuban troops in angola, the caribbean in flames. you know, everybody really destabilizing in latin america. we were not popular. we had just lost the first war in our history. they play a dangerous game. spying is necessary. people have been doing it. it's the second oldest

profession. >> look at what we've done. we overthrew the government in guatema guatemala. we probably killed lamumba. who knows. we're laughing but we did this stuff. how much hell did we in interest of defeating the communists, how far were we willing to go? >> the operative yes is we. people blame the cia but it's the presidents who make the orders. jfk was meeting -- you know that. >> i know a lot of it. it's coming out. >> meeting in the everglades. third level. really down and dirty with the guys who were going to do this. you kind of have to look at the president. what's he about. >> right now, what's your estimates of what's going on at langley in virginia? do we still knock off people? >> we're knocking off taliban and we're certainly knocking off al qaeda. the question is my dad would probably ask, why are you knocking them off? maybe it's better -- certainly the senior guy. you don't want to get the mid-level guy. it would be better than knocking

them off. better to capture them, interrogate them. >> amazing figure. when he was lost in the lake out there, i was amazed what happened. thank you, carl. i'm going to go see it. it's a great documentary. it's getting awards. the film opens tonight in washington. it's already sold out. log on to firstrunfeatures.com to find out other cities where the film is playing. you got to go see this movie. it's great. "the man nobody knew" including you didn't know him that well. when we return, let me finish jack kennedy, finish that story. what he was like and what made him tick. we're going to talk about that next week. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

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let me finish tonight with this -- on a friday morning in the fall of 1963, an american president traveled through texas, trying to figure the state out. what made dallas so right wing, he kept asking the two men in the car with him that drizzly friday morning in october. why were they attacking him as a traitor, spitting on his people? one of his hosts, congressman jim wright of ft. worth laid it out on the right wing press in dallas. governor john connelly, the other politician, chalked it up to the economy. unlike the city of ft. worth, where the visiting president had gotten warmly cheered, the city of dallas was filled with white collar office buildings. people there all wanted to make it to the higher floor, wanted to move up to their insurance and voting companies. they were voting the way their

bosses voted. voting their aspirations to get to the next floor. who knows what make it trying to figure things out politically. jack kennedy was trying to sort it out that morning. he was trying to figure out things politically, trying to figure out what was in the water in dallas that made some people so viciously right wing. an hour later he was gone. next week, my book comes out, "jack kennedy elusive hero." it answers the question we all want answered when we read a biography. what was he like? to answer it i've gone to the oral histories and accounts of people who went to school with him, went to world war ii with him, hung out with him as a close friend, lived the rough political life with jack watched him grow to the leader . who saved us. i received a call the other day. he just finished my book. he said, i brought jack kennedy back alive. that's what i wanted to do, what i'm asking you to do, help me do it. you can order a copy of