story. moments ago here in new york, appearing alongside gloria allred delivered the stunning accusation. that cain made unwanted physical overtures towards her inside a car. her story she said had to be told. >> but now i'm coming forward to give a face and a voice to those women who cannot or for whatever reasons do not wish to come forward and on behalf of all women who are sexually harassed in the workplace but do not come out of fear of retaliation or public humiliation. >> what are does she expect from the candidate? >> i want you, mr. cain, to come clean. just admit what you did. admit you were inappropriate to people. >> this afternoon, stunning

announcement as mr. cain said he was no longer taking questions on this matter. >> mr. cain, as attorney for one of the women who filed the sexual harassment -- >> don't even go there. >> can i ask a question? >> no. >> then in the friendly confines of fox news, mr. cain changed his mind and did answer questions on the matter. >> the fact that this comes from the perry campaign you believe? >> that's where all of the clues lead to. i don't want to get hung up on that. we want to get back on message. >> more clairility from the campaign increasingly in danger of imploding by the minute. >> i am the koch brothers' brother from another mother. yes. i am their brother from another mother. and proud of it.

>> yes, i'm glad you are proud of that, mr. cain, because you may not be as proud of this. the latest nbc poll found among all voter, herman cain's favorability rate suggest going down. mr. cain has the chance to change all of that later this evening. on the eve of a huge republican debate on the economy, mr. cain decided to do his preparation by appearing with who else but jimmy kimmel. for more on mr. cain's latest troubles, i am joined by msnbc contributor and author of who is afraid of post blackness. what it means to be black now and communications director and msnbc political analyst. i have to begin with you, karen. what is your immediate reaction to this woman's statement? >> oh, martin. didn't we know we would end up here at some point. as we were discussing on friday, this changes the dynamics in a member of ways. number one, last week it was a

one-sided conversation with herman cain basically doing all the talking. now we have a human being standing in front of us, telling us her side of the story. number two, matt lewis brought it up earlier on the show and he's right. the ethnicity of this woman will be jarring for some people and have an impact on the way this story plays out. number three, we are now seeing a pattern here. not just women or two women or three, we are talking about four women on the same day that we are talking about a study that was released about the sexual harassment going on in schools and among our children. this is a serious issue. you were talking about the ethnicity of the accuser. >> what does this woman use.

we will see how they worry their new black friend that he is harassing blond women as opposed to black women. that thing of black sexuality. very frightening in this country and threatening. we will see how that plays out. even with the details that we hear today, this is low in terms of the scandals. there is no sex even with maids or women who live in south america. there is no sending naked pictures to people it is going to take more to shock us. >> do you think there questions with regard to this woman's credibility given the pact that she contacted mr. cain after she lost her job and that may well justify some form of vengeful act like this all be it some

years after. she lost her job in 1997. people will ask that just as there questions about three women, but it's important that we underscore what she was saying. this is about harassment. women face this and some men actually every day in the workplace and it is wrong. i hope we do not fall into the old trap of blaming the victim instead of listening to the victim and trying to take a step back and saying wait a second, one of the issues we have to deal with is sexual harassment is a real problem. it is alive and we need to believe women so they will come forward no matter what their race and position. so we can make sure we are dealing with this problem. >> you were saying there is no prostitute involved and no sex

involved. here was a woman who lost her job and was in a state of desperation. she was in a car with this man and he without being indiscreet and impolite, it is allegedly seachlted to touch her genitals and then grabbed her head allegedly and forces it towards his groin. this is serious sexual harassment. alleged. >> i agree with you and karen. it is a horrible thing that he is allegedly accused of doing. in terms of what we are used to hearing from politicians, this is small potatoes. the other thing to keep in mind is this is the last stop for the gop until we get to romney ville. if they dump cain here, it's romney and you have to go with him. they don't want to go with romney. they will go with him even if he is not prepare and not politically prepared and

inexperience and didn't know china has nuclear weapons. this is prime time. >> he responded with a statement and it reads in part, fortunately the american people will not allow the american people the 9-9-9 plan could be overshadowed by the bogus attacks. that's what he is saying. >> i'm sorry. his bold vision? this is from a guy that doesn't know that china has nuclear weapons? are you kidding sidney it is going to be fascinating to see how this story unfolds over the next several days and particularly interesting to see how our friends on the right handled the women in conjunction with how they handled anita hill. >> what do you mean? >> you are trying to get me in trouble.

>> it will be interesting to see them rally around and now that it's clear that the black sexuality has been infused. these women were ten years younger. this is an older man and younger women. white women, black man. >> it's very jarring for the gop and anybody to see a black man be sexually aggressive is in an unwanted way. he is competing for the branding. stay on the stage as long as possible.

stay on the stage. that's all that matters. two things. number one, we need to deal with the issues and how women are treated in the workplace. not everybody will have the same reaction to this. we will have the same reaction no matter what the race is. it's horrible when it happens, but it will change the dynamic we are seeing. >> mr. cain denied the allegations. a closer look at the campaign finances and later, a verdict in the case against michael jackson. dr. conrad murray. stay with us. what's better than gold ? free gold ! we call that hertz gold plus rewards. you earn free days, free weeks and more fast. that's a plus. upgrade your ride.

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just when you naught there couldn't be more trouble for a campaign, the candidate's finances are coming under fire. the irs being asked to invet vestigate allegations. herman cain's chief of staff improperly used funds from a tax-exempt nonprofit to pay for private jets, travel, and computers for the cain campaign. interestingly, it was block, most notorious for his cigarette smoking to preach ethics to a reporter. >> do i have my chief of staff. >> please cent him the journalistic code of ethics. >> perhaps it's mr. block himself who could use the refresher. >> michael joins us from washington and another day, another scandal. let's begin with the money.

what do we have today on and campaign money? >> it's more fallout from the story that broke last week when they published the documents from the ran and appeared to show money going from the charity to the cain presidential campaign to pay for the charter flights and ipads and about $40,000 worthwhile. the problem is that on friday we had a complaint filed saying this was a violation of federal election law because nonprofits are not permitted under the law to participate to contribute to political campaigns and in addition we have a complaint filed by a wisconsin watch dog group saying it's in violation of tax law and asking for an irs

investigation into mr. block's charity saying if proven he should be stripped of the tax exempt status. it is worth pointing out and it is pointed out in the complaint filed by the group that mr. block has a past. he has a history here. he has been fined for violating election laws in wisconsin and more extraordinary was banned from participating in state politics for three years. that was a pretty extraordinary penalty and what the groups are saying is look, there is a history here. >> pretty extraordinary that in a single day, mr. cain has allegations in relation to money and then sex. a woman has come forward to accuse him of sexual harassment in a motor vehicle.

how is mr. cain doing? >> clearly the sexual harassment allegations are going to get a lot more attention today. i have thought over the weekend that the story and pretty much played itself out without a woman coming forward and cain may have been able to get beyond this, but this turns the table. we have got an accuser who has stepped forward. she has identified exactly what he is alleged to have done. the story is getting picked over and giving new to the story and makes it much, much harder for mr. cane to survive.

do you think they will because we have very specific allegations here, the campaign has issued a denial and there is only circumstances that apparently this woman may have corroborating witnesses and people told about it at the time and that's the first thing you look for in a sexual harassment allegation. at a minimum, i think the news media will be spending a lot more time talking about this than mr. cain would like. >> a quick final question, what can the irs do if they find that mr. cain's chief of staff martin block has been deploying moneys from a nonprofit charity for the purposes of a campaign? what penalties are available? >> they can strip it of the

status and impose fines on mr. block. the campaign lawyer said you hired an outside counsel toil review it. in a sense mr. cain's chief of staff is under investigation by herman cain's own campaign. that's an extraordinary situation for the campaign to be in. the debate of the candidates wednesday night 8:00 p.m. eastern. the jury reached a verdict in the case of michael jackson's former doctor. stay with us.

> now just one out, pop took another step in his weigh can't wait campaign with new ways to help veterans find jobs in a tough economy. coming ahead of veteran's day on friday, the president's action is part of a larger effort to draw a contrast with republicans in congress who seek to obstruct his jobs agenda. with me in new york, former white house deputy communications director for president obama and joins us from berkeley, economics professor and former labor secretary under president clinton and aftershock. the next economy in america's future. if i can start with you, the latest census data reveals that older americans are 47 times wealthier than younger americans. why is wealth disparity such a disaster for an economy? >> martin, wealth disparity is a problem for an economy if it's

concentrated at the top for two reasons. when so much wealth is concentrated, the middle class doesn't have enough purchasing power. without going deeper and deeper into debt. that's not sustainable as we saw in 2008. it's a problem for an economy because concentrated wealth has a political aspect to it. obviously money corrupts politics and when money is concentrated among a small number of people, the corruption sends to be greater and makes people cynical and a lot of people thinks it's rigged. >> the statistics are mounding up and you have the disparity of wealth. we have poverty statistics higher than ever. how does the president persuade people that he is not responsible for these things? you know what people think. he has been the president.

>> i think the president came into office without his steps and without his actions. we would have possibly gone into another depression. he has been honest that more needs to be done. you just touched on it now about the steps he is taking and pushing congress and making the case for more than we need to do. as we look to next year, this is about who you are fighting for. people like mitt romney and herman cain running on a platform for the 1%. they want to let the housing market drop and fight for tax cuts and not for swallr relief middle class. >> the disparity of wealth is one of the single reasons for why the vast majority of americans have lost their spending power. you than republicans have signed a pledge to grover norquist that means that reducing the disparity by taxation is out of the question.

if you can't change that disparity by using the taxation system, how do you bridge the chasm between the haves and have notes? >> over the long-term, you have to invest in education for everyone. high quality education and a high quality infrastructure that everyone can take advantage of. most americans can be more productive. in the shoerm term, there is no alternative and if you have a large gaping deficit over the 10-year term, there is no alternative but to raise taxes. for the republicans to hold on to the notion that because grover norquist and i don't know who elected him, but because there is a guy named grover norquist, they cannot raise taxes on the rich when even 51% of republicans say to surveyors that they think that the rich should pay more and that sounds appropriate. that's the height of absurdity.

>> briefly, the president announced the executive actions and there is a bill before congress this week. can republicans really stand up in the face of more veterans and turn this bill down? >> it's absolutely shocking. just as an example of how they are putting politics, they are putting defeating the president which many said is their top priority ahead of economic recovery and putting teachers and firemen back to work. there is a good example of bank of america. people have power and i know robert talked about this. this is a time where people need to call on washington to act. >> i'm sorry we don't have more time. thank you for joining us. wey are still wait for example the verdict to be announced in the manslaughter trial of dr. conrad murray. michael jackson's former personal physician. the jury has reached a verdict

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we are following breaking news in the michael jackson case in the jury's verdict. charged with involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's death. kristin dahlgren joins us live from the courthouse in los angeles. i understand members of the jackson family have literally just been arriving. >> yeah, martin, they have. the jury reached a verdict about an hour and a half ago when they gave the three buzzes. that was the designated signal they had finally reached a verdict. the judge told us he was going to give two hours for all of the parties to arrive. so far we have seen katherine and joe and rebe and his brother, jermaine. we haven't seen la toya yet, but she has been tweeting. in a tweet she said she was

shaking uncontrollably and she is on the way over here. when the jackson family arrived, the crowd went nuts. you can see the crowd here has been growing. a lot of michael jackson fans were screaming and yelling justice for michael and many of them have been out here through the full six weeks. some supporters of conrad murray here as well. friends and supporters have been here with their signs saying conrad murray is minute. waiting for the verdict. it's a half hour from now and it will be read at 1:00 p.m. local time. in about a half hour, we will hear what the jury has decided. they deliberated now over a two-day period for about hours total. this after six weeks of testimony and 49 witnesses, more than 300 pieces of evidence. there was a lot to consider, but it's just count of involuntary

manslaughter that they had to make the decision on if dr. murray is guilty, he faces up to four years and could lose his medical license as well. everybody waiting to see what the decision is. >> this jury is a pretty well-educated one. there is a biochemist on the jury and there is someone who had addiction in their own family. do you think there has been a tossle here between the credibility and the potential negligence of the doctor versus looking at michael jackson on whether there was evidence of him displaying a level of addiction to drugs? >> yeah and that's a question that the jury had to consider. seven men and five women. the defense tried to present michael jackson has an addict who was so desperate for this propofol and the other drugs and for sleep that he would have done anything. they also presented him as

addicted to demerol. he got it through another doctor. that has been a big question in front of the jury. did michael jackson give himself the fatal dose and whether or not he did, whether dr. murray was negligent for having the propofol and administering it in this home setting without the proper type of medical equipment that you would have in a hospital setting. this jury had a lot to consider. they are a very diverse group and many were well-educated and many of them came in contact through his show business ties. some of them said they were fans of michael jackson. there was a lot they had to consider and they reached their decision. >> kristin dahlgren live in los angeles. stay with us and thank you. per more on the impending verdict which we expect at any moment, let's bring in jamie floyd and john kelly who is a former prosecutor.

ed chernoff, defense attorney for conrad murray said this is not a reality show. this is reality. you must not find his doctor guilty of actions perpetrated by michael jackson. >> he was extremely effective and not celebrity attorney of the sort we might have expected. >> like a mark geragos. >> but a attorney known to us who know trial attorneys across the country and very effective in a courtroom and that line referenced goes to the heart of the case. this is an involuntary manslaughter case, not a murder case. it's more complicated for the jury for that reason. there is no intent alleged by the prosecution and therefore any act by anyone including the victim himself can provide the defense. the reasonable doubt this jury needs to acquit. >> the prosecutor kept talking

about the fact that he felt conrad murray was conducting a scientific experiment in a bedroom because there is not ann treatiologi theseiologist on the planet that would recommend this and leaving the room at the same time. was he effective? >> sure, the prosecution said the propofol should not be administered outside of a hospital setting. when he chose to do so, he should have been diligent and never leaving michael's side. even being diligent, he should have had life-saving equipment. that would be gross deviation from the care. >> the problem for the jury is can they conceive that mr. jackson did this to himself

or a doctor paid $150,000 a month could have been that reckless. those seem to be both very, very difficult positions to even contemplate. >> there is a fine line between and this is what the defense suggested, between what should be a negligence case in civil court and a case of criminal culpability. i imagine that's what they grappled with. we will find out shortly what they decided. this is a tragic case. you have clearly someone who was a victim of something. maybe his own drug abuse and maybe the criminal negligence of the doctor. at the same time you have a tragic and pathetic trcriminal defendant. as john knows, this jury got an instruction that if you have

facts that weigh and are equally witnessed and you can't make a determination, you are to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant. that is always a critical instruction. they will tell you after the fact that in the end we weighed that instruction more than any other and that's why we came back. >> we are seeing michael jackson's sister arriving now at the court. with friends and family and other members who are there. john, do you think that the issue of these two experts in the area of anesthesiology, steven schaffer, what was that clash like in the courtroom? >> it got down to the jury personal that you don't see. dr. schaffer was a protege who testified first. he was sort of clinical and professorial and dr. white got up and was sort offage tated and seemed to to take it to a more

personal level and that affected his testimony in the way the jury accepted too. the experts had three and the defense had one. the prosecution clearly just in sheer numbers and in addition to the testimony, one of the penalty experts. >> one kept saying you have to set aside the fact that the victim, the individual who passed away who died is an international celebrity. what does that mean? >> it's impossible to do and this is a hard case to call. i have been doing this for a long time. you have been at this longer than i have. this is a hard case to call precisely of what this victim was. hard to ask the jury to set it aside. he said would we even be here if the victim was not michael jackson. i don't think we would be, but we are and the jury has a difficult decision e. >> dr. conrad murray has an

interesting personal life. he has i believe six children out of wedlock and simultaneously having two or three relationships and one appeared in the proceedings as a dancer and so on. through that prism or as a respectable doctor? is that a problem for them to get over? >> it's a terrific question. i think the jury got a taste of doctor murray's sort of personal life and interwoven relationship by the phone calls and text messages and things during the critical time. i think juries are very sort of smart. they are street smart and listen to the court and think they are not going to take his personal insdrugzs back he.

>> this is why we handicap the cases and we know how it should come down, we are so often wrong. we know so much more than the jury ever knows. they are sitting in a bubble of the courtroom and the joo j made rightly in most cases and sometimes wrong decisions about what the jury can and cannot know. the jury know what is it knows and do not know what we know and don't know a lot of other stuff. all this information about dr. kline, the termatologist and the alleged addiction to demerol. there is so much more they don't know. all these high profile cases, that's why it is so difficult to predict what the verdict will number a few minutes. >> the doctor himself has a hippocratic oath to do no harm. in these s, it seems fairly obvious he acted at least negligently whether criminally or otherwise.

definitely negligently. do you think the evidence was persuasive enough. what's your assessment. >> you know, with this this case, it wasn't a question of who did it or what the facts were. everything was clear. the issue before the jury was listen to the judge's instructions and decide whether the facts as they know him by the person on trial rose to the level of criminal conduct. that's the one question they are faced with and i think the answer will be yes, it did. >> you were talking about the jury and the considerations of this complexity and there is a lot of science involved. this jury was not sequestered. >> surprisingly not. >> they didn't know much about it. >> they're shouldn't have. >> are you telling me they didn't go home and go online and discover all of the messy details of his personal life? >> i hope i don't see earnest,

but i believe they did not. they take the judge's instructions to heart and don't go on facebook and don't google and twitter and all that. there have been a lot of writings on the issue and they are concerned about social networking and access to the internet. you can't take the newspaper away from juries anymore and think that you have resolved the problem. i have to hope they did the right thing and i believe they did. >> the jury got the case on friday. the sense of a jury wanting to go across the weekend where there was speculation in the newspapers and online that going-over a weekend might have indicated that they were ambivalent. >> traditionally, doesn't a quick forward to the defense, a quick verdict as a defense. >> a quick verdict wherever the

strength of the evidence is. you can get that and in this case i think the prosecution has a stronger case, but i think they made up their mind friday. they might have even gone in on a first vote, but a jury is very especially in this day and age, very self conscious about the notoriety of the case and they want to look like and i'm sure they gave the appearance and having given consideration in this case and they want to give it time and perception that they gave it the time and appearance. >> nobody wants o.j. and all of the negative publicity that the o.j. simpson jury had when they came back quickly. they may play cards to make it look like they paid the attention necessary to come to the right conclusion. i hate to say it, but after the criticism that jury his especially juries that acquitted, look at the casey

anthony case. the kind of negative attention that juries have to face after the high profile cases, they are very much aware and much more sophisticated than they were 10 or 15 years ago. >> conrad murray stands to face a prison sentence of years, but there is speculation that he may not have to. >> the spectrum is anything from probation to up to four years. i don't believe anyway. out in l.a. and california, we know the prisons are greatly overcrowd and now with sentencing under four or three years, you don't do state time. lindsay lohan is the perfect example that you can't get her in the door before she goes out the other. >> if he were to be found guilty and the verdict of this jury is

conrad murray is guilty, what do you think he will face? >> he will lose his medical license and face a period of incarceration and will probably end up being not state time. he can't be random in the treatment. there will be a lot of doctors thinking but for the grace of god, there go i with the treatment. and isn't at this time case with six gallons of propofol delivered to this individual's doctor's office and delivered to one of his girlfriends during this period, isn't that indicative that people in this country can get advice to drugs very, very easily. that's not doctor murray. >> no, it's not and after the anna nicole smith death, we know there was an effort by jerry brown to go after the issue of

prescription drug overmedication of people who are clearly add t addicted and being victimized and by a system of prescription drug medication and addiction going ramp and. >> isn't it the case that actually i, you, or jamie could get anything we want via internet? >> most everything. amazingly enough -- >> isn't it astonishing? >> it's not even against the law. he administered propofol in the house to michael jackson. mostly negligent, probably so, but unlawful? no. >> in the course of the proceedings, he was giving dip ra van to the point where the defense alleged that in fact he

had become addicted to it. >> alleged and dr. kline insists he did not. he insisted he did not give the demerol and perhaps he accessed with the other doctors and he was not call as a witness because the judge said there was no evidence that this contributed to michael jackson's death. all of that remains to be seen, but it is clear that michael jackson was a very, very troubled individual and had terrible troubles with his sleep. i talked with people who know michael jackson and worked with other celebrities. this was a problem in hollywood and in our culture and with young people and middle aged people. we have to get a handle on this addiction. it is the fastest growing cause in the country and we are not addressing it honestly. let's bring back kristin

dahlgren who joins us from outside the courtroom. kristin, can you hear me? >> how many more people have been arriving in the time we have been discussing? >> the crowds are definitely continuing to grow and goes all the way up, almost an entire block here. it was a smaller crowd growing since the time that word got out that the jury had reached a verdict and seeing la toya jackson and michael's sister pulled up in her black car and the crowd began scramming and yelling and chanting, justice for michael. they have been very supportive of the jackson family. the family has been in court at least some of them every day of this trial over the past six weeks. they vowed to be here and they have been. his parents, joe and katherine

and la toya just arrived. janet jackson was staying down there and not returning for the verdict, but they are in the courtroom and waiting to hear if conrad murray has arrived here. we have that staked out and watching for him as well to arrive with the attorneys. we are less than 15 minutes away from hearing what the jury decided. people continuing to arrive and wanting to know if the jury has convicted the man that they at least blame for michael jackson's death. >> thank you very much and do stay with us. the prosecution sought to show that dr. murray agreed to treat jackson's insomnia with a procedure many other doctors flat out refused. let's bring in the doctor,

chairman of anesthesiology at the case medical center in cleveland. good afternoon, sir. >> good afternoon. >> would you conceive of administering a drug like propofol in a domestic house, in a patient's bedroom? >> not in a million years. this is really, this is a drug that's a very powerful surgical anesthetic. assist sleep-producing agent. it has a number of different potential complications. and to give it outside of a center where you have the ability to monitor patients and to resuscitate them, again, inconceivable. >> and as a treatment for insympti insomnia, is that also unimaginable? >> using a shotgun to kill an ant. >> sorry, could you repeat what you just said? >> it's like using a shotgun to kill an ant. there are many different medications that one can give, literally dozens of medications that are much safer, not quite as effective, clearly, but you're using a drug that we actually render people totally unconscious, insensitive to pain. they undergo major surgical procedures around this drug.

to use it just to produce somebody -- to have somebody have a good night's sleep? i don't think so. >> we know that dr. murray is a specialist in cardiology. does that equip him to administer drugs that you've spent your career administering to patients in hospital? >> well, that's a good question. and certainly, cardiologists can use sedation agents, but they need to use them and do use them in methods that the patients are still able to be awoken from the sleep. once you give enough drug, is this is sort of a slippery slope, once you give enough drug so they're rendered totally unconscious, they have no reflexes, they can't breathe for themselves, that doesn't come under the purvey of a cardiologist. i could get ahold of drugs used to treat cancer patients, but i would never do that, because i don't know how to take care of the effects that may cause. >> and in terms of a doctor

administering an agent as powerful as this, and then leaving the individual, even for a small amount of time? >> even if one can conceive that a doctor is using that kind of drug in this setting, he or she is still under a contract with that patient to take care of that patient. you know, to provide life-support for that patient. and to turn their back and leave a patient under the influence of powerful agents, again, not the right thing to do. >> dr. howard nearman, thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you. >> stay with us. we're expecting a -- we're expecting a verdict at any moment in the trial of dr. conrad murray. michael jackson's family, we understand, many members of that family, have arrived. our reporter and correspondent kristen dahlgren has told us of comments made by his sister, la toya, apparently on twitter saying that she's shaking at the very thought of what's going to happen this afternoon. there are thousands of people outside the courtroom, as you

can see. international journalists represented, reporters from around the world, and of course, a split between many of the people who are there. many of them believing that dr. conrad murray is responsible for the death of michael jackson. but others, perhaps a smaller crowd, supportive of dr. murray. believing him to have been the victim in the case. as we know, last friday -- sorry, last thursday as the prosecution and defense summed up, we heard the prosecuting lawyer, l.a. county district attorney, david walgren, saying, you don't give propofol in a bedroom. what's unusual, he said, is that michael jackson lived as long as he did under the care of conrad murray. he said in caricaturing the defense argument, "they've said, poor conrad murray, everyone's working against him, everyone is to blame, apart from conrad murray." and then, david walgren proceeded to appeal to michael

jackson's children. he said, "for michael's children, this case will gone on forever. they do not have a father because of the actions of conrad murray." as we know, conrad murray is facing a single charge of involuntary manslaughter. potentially, he could face four years in prison, but he's a doctor, as we know. he has no prior crimes to his name, and our lawyers here, our experts, jami floyd and john kelly were just surmising that he'll definitely, if found guilty, lose his medical license, but perhaps will not have to serve the whole time. in closing arguments, the defense said dr. murray should not be held responsible for the actions of a grown man, actions that include him taking other drugs, such as the sedative lorazepam, which the coroner's office said contributed to jackson's death. let's listen to that exchange. >> what you need to do is

convict dr. murray for the actions of michael jackson. if it were anybody else but michael jackson, anybody else, would this doctor be here today? so was dr. murray supposed to watch michael jackson to save him from himself at all times? was he never to leave? should there be an alarm in the bed? at what point do you draw the line ability dr. murray's responsibility for a grown-up? >> that was conrad murray's defense attorney, ed chernoff. that's the scene outside the courtroom live. but right now, my colleague dylan ratigan will take over with our legal experts john kelly and jami floyd. dylan, i'll join you in a moment. it's all over to you. >> i look forward to that. toure also sticks around to join us this afternoon, as what will be an interesting period of time, to say the least. we're minutes away from the verdict. martin will not be going far. we'll be tapping into martin's

personal experience. the jackson family has now gathered inside the courtroom, as michael jackson's fans stand vigil outside the courtroom. live now inside the courtroom, we wait for the judge. dr. conrad murray is charged with involuntary manslaughter. he faces up to four years in prison. and could lose his medical license, depending on the verdict. we start with nbc's kristen dahlgren, who has the greatest sense of what is going on inside and outside of that courtroom. hi, kristen. >> reporter: hi, dylan. about of five minutes ago, our producer said there is still no sign of dr. conrad murray here. so the murray camp still has not arrived and that verdict is going to be read in about five minutes from now. so he's expected to arrive here any moment. meantime, the crowd really just growing here outside of the courthouse. we were given two hours' notice between the time that the jury had reached its verdict and when

it's being read, so that's giving a lot of people a chance to get down here. many of them michael jackson fans. they've got signs. they've been cheering when the family arrived, shouting things like "justice for michael," in a repeated chant. so many of them eager, as we all are, to hear what the jury has decided. the the jury deliberated over two days. they began on friday, deliberated for about seven or eight hours on friday. and then there was another hour or so this morning. and that's when they gave that three-buzz signal. the court had set up a signal for them to give the court when they had finally reached a verdict. so just before 11:00 here, they gave those three buzzes and now we've just been waiting to hear what that verdict is, again, just moments away here, dylan. >> and if you were to look in the context of the carnival that can occur outside of a los angeles courtroom, almost uniquely in american culture, is a courtroom in los angeles quickly turn into a carnival of

sorts. o.j. simpson's verdict, perhaps, being the most obvious of that cultural phenomenon, just as we pay attention, obviously, to the gravitas of the situation of the death of michael jackson, and for that matter, the existence of all sorts of pharmaceuticals inside of our culture, on many levels. give us a sense of how los angeles is this afternoon outside that building. >> reporter: yeah, it's worth noting that this is the exact same courthouse where the o.j. simpson trial took place. and so that hasn't been lost on anyone. and also keep in mind that this is over the death of michael jackson, we have saw spectacles almost everywhere he went. the molestation trial. we saw the same type of crowd gathering outside. remember him jumping on top of the car and dancing at one point, wearing his a pajamas into court.

so we're used to seeing this type of spectacle soerkted with michael jackson. at one point, there were people dressed at clowns out here. they know the cameras of the world are watching. but his legacy and what they brought to him. so many fans dressing up like him, with colorful posters and album covers and things like that. los angeles has seen very high-profile celebrity trials, and this one of the biggest they have seen in quite some time. >> also with us, criminal defense attorney, jami floyd. john kelly, former prosecutor, and also martin bashir and toure. on multiple le