secretary of state, a job that's good for this country. we're getting things done because of her. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. tomorrow night i'll be on "the tonight show" with jay leno talking about my new book, "jack kennedy: elusive hero." "politics nation starts right now. hey, republicans, you ignored the people. you remember? the people? here comes the cavalry. no to stopping a woman's right to choose. no to union busting. it's time to -- tonight senator sherrod brown on the big fight ahead. and live reaction from white house senior adviser valerie jarrett. >> but i will vigorously defend my reputation. >> failing cain. the candidate says he's not going anywhere.

and his accusers say they'll speak out. together. >> i gave him every opportunity to make this right. plus -- gop fight night in romney's home state. i wonder how voters will react to this -- >> let detroit go bankrupt. >> welcome home, willard. "politics nation" starts right now. welcome to "politics nation." i'm al sharpton. tonight's lead -- america, this is what winning looks like. >> issue 2 failed and not by a small margin. >> would you turn around and tell people that news. >> they just called it. issue 2 is gone. >> i'm jubilant.

i want to jump up and down, at my age. >> we are -- ohio! >> the overwhelming majority said we trust the firefighters, want them to have a voice. >> the people have spoken clearly. you don't ignore the public. >> that's right, governor kasich, don't ignore the public. 61% of voters rejected kasich's union-busting law. they saved collective bargaining for public workers and showed the country how to fight back. voters across america, from maine to mississippi, to arizona, sent a message to republicans -- their radical agenda will not be tolerated. don't ignore the public, because eventually they'll make themselves heard, just like they did in ohio. where they collected more than 1 million signatures to put this on the ballot. the afl-cio knocked on more than 1 million endorse to get the

message out. and in the process, they let the world know the middle class won't back down. so, yes, governor kasich, you were right when you want this last night. >> the people have spoken clearly. you don't ignore the public. joining me now is ohio senator sherrod brown, who's been a leading voice in this fight. senator, in your mind, what does this message from last night of this victory, what does is it send to america? >> well, the middle class and those who aspire to be in the middle class puv back. it was as simple at that. a year ago, soon after governor kasich was elected and took office, the legislature and the governor went after collective bargaining rights, they went after voting rights and went after women's rights. we saw yesterday in ohio in collective bargaining rights, maine on voters rights and mississippi on women's rights, the voters said we're not going

to put up with that. that's why it was such a huge victory. a 22-point victory, with the machine sill of the republican party, and karl rove's money machine, all of that in the state, the middle class pushed back. and that's why it was such a big deal yesterday in ohio. >> wall street s. the ceos who outsourced jobs, the people like governor kasich have declared war on the middle class. they have declared the class war

has been from the elite aimed at the middle class. those on the politicians on the side of working-class kids and poor families that want their kids -- the working class and poor families that want their kids to have opportunity to get ahead, if you're on that side, whether it's the china currency bill or collective bargaining or saving medicare and pell grants, if you're on that side, you'll win elections, but if you're on the side that has declared class warfare, the voters will get political whiplash if you're playing that game. >> what does this mean in terms of 2012? will this help president obama carry ohio? >> i think it will. >> will it help with your reelection? >> absolutely. >> what does this mean? >> i think no question voters are saying we don't want this national radical agenda of turning medicare over to the

insurance companies, turning social security over to wall street, going after bargaining rights, going after voting rights. i think refusing to increase taxes on millionaires, i think that people in the country -- ohio spoke loudly and clearly about that. that helps president obama next year as he builds this coalition across the board to save the middle class in this country. >> when i look at mississippi last night, the vote, when i look at the vote in maine, when i look at russell pierce being recalled in arizona last night, are we beginning to see a real movement of progressives and the middle class and labor and civil rights coming together again and actually winning at the poll, beating people that are well financed, that has had a lot of right-wing media fueling their base, but are losing now at the polls? >> yeah, i think no question.

you could see it encaps lated in ohio instead of bringing people together -- we've had a lot of job loss in my state for a decade, from bush economic policies, and instead of coming together, what do we do together to create jobs? the -- went after voting rights, and that really energized a whole group, a brought swath of people. that's how you get to 61% of the vote. that wasn't an accident. i thought -- i didn't think we would win by that much, but that's why we won by the margin we did. all the people that have seen the governor and the legislature try to take away their rights on all levels i think fought back and said you're not going to do that again. i think that carries over into 2012. i don't know, perhaps these radicals in the legislature in columbus learned something. if they did, they'll come and work with us on creating jobs. that's where we need to go.

>> i think you raise the point i raise. i was in ohio, a couple times, with you a couple weeks ago. no one thought by this margin, but then when you sigh the margin in mississippi, these are not just victories, but almost a repudiation of the radical agenda on the right. do you think that maybe the right just overjumped the runway, they might have just gone so far that they've made people just say, wait a minute, we had better go out and protect the america that we love? >> yeah, and you're a man of the cloth. you know that pride goeth before the fall. he won by two points against governor strickland in 2010, yet the way they acted is they had a mandate with 49% of the vote, and tried to impose this radical agenda. people don't want radical

change. they want jobs. they want to see the 99% get a fair shake. they had a govern and business establishment that is fighting for the 99%, not just the 1%. i think that was the strongest lesson that came out of columbus, ohio, yesterday. >> ohio bible-quoting senator sherrod brown. >> thank you. >> good to talk with you. as the senator and i were discussing, there were big victories around the country last night. in mississippi voters rejected a personhood initiative that would have declared that life begins at conception. in maine, voters rejected a law ending same-day voter registration. and in arizona, voters through russell pierce, the state senate president, out of office. i am telling you that i've been

involved in civil rights and in movements since i was a teenager, even slightly before i was. movements are not like campaigns. they're not neatly woven together. they're not figured out by strategists. they're not budgeted out. they come together when people stands up and come together because they're passionate about what they believe in. what we began seeing last night, from the deep south in mississippi all the way to maine, to ohio, clearly states that are critical to where the election will be next year, but critical to how people will be treated in this country, is that people that don't normally come together have come together. why? because they feel they must protect their right to wages, their right to a life where they can protect that you are pensions, their right to choice in life.

if we hook up this train, this train of progress, we may be in different cars, some labor, some civil rights, some middle class, but as long as we're hooked together, that train will ride and bring us home to the america we want. the next stop on this train ride is wisconsin. next week they start collecting suggests to recall governor walker. watch out, walker. that noise you hear is the train of progress headed your way. inside the white house they watched the results very carefully. what did they learn? we'll talk live to white house senior adviser valerie jarrett. that's next. and these come together, one thing you can depend on is that these will come together. delicious and wholesome. some combinations were just meant to be. tomato soup from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. [ male announcer ] the super bowl. the most epic day in america. and the end of a journey that began here,

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president obama's praising workers for standing up and fighting for their rights. valerie jarrett, senior adviser and assistant to president obama, is with me, next. 16 hou? with thermacare heatwraps. thermacare works differently.

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sgli republicans woke up to a lout and clear message this morning, the middle class will not be bullied. moments ago the big win in ohio, president obama praised workers for standing up and fighting for their rights. vice president biden said, quote -- fundamental fairness has prevailed, and called it a gigantic victory for the middle class. now the administration is hoping to ride the wave through the 2012 election. today the white house fired up the base, hosting an african-american policy conference with political, business and community leaders.

>> as all of you now we have a fierce urgency. if we are persistent, if we are unified and we remay hopefully, then we'll get through the tough times and better days lie ahead. >> joining us from the white house is valerie jarrett, assistant to president obama, ms. jaret, thanks for being here. >> good evening. >> i'd like to talk in a moment about the outreach today at the white house, but let me start with the election. first of all, good evening. it's terrific to be on your show, as always. i think the results show just what you said a minute ago, that the people of ohio spoke out strongly. there was a lot of organizing on the ground. in the end they said they wanted fundamental fairness, and stood

up for the rights of workers, stood up for collective bargaining, and it was a strong victory. >> one of the things that is always surprising to me is how people almost talk themselves into believes what they want to hear when you see the margins that we saw last night in ohio and mississippi then these polls among democrats, approval rating among african-americans, 91% would vote for president obama. this is nbc/"wall street journal" poll. so when we hear all of this weakness in the base and democrats moving away, and african-americans moving away, i don't know who they are talking to other than mailing themselves. as i travel around the country, this poll and the vote yesterday reflects that the people are not

where they say they are. >> well, i think the people believe in fundamental fairness, and i think our philosophy, reverend sharpton, is the president wakes up every morning focusing on the american people, putting them first, pushing forward his agenda to create jobs, and he's going to make his case to the american people and has confidence they're going to support his vision for america, which is wonderful inclusion, wonderful hopefulness, one of the growth of opportunity, and that's the vision he's going to work on each and every day. >> now, a couple weeks ago, the president had many progressive leaders in. today he had african-american leaders, and latino leaders, different constituencies, where he himself begins to address them, and i was impressed a couple weeks ago, he answered questions from all over the room. tell us, what is this effort

about where he is talking directly to constituency leaders and answering to them what his big tent vision means to them and their particular constituency. >> as you know, the president has on which said in the first couple years he was not able to get outside washington enough. he loves nothing better than talking directly to the american people. he's been on the road a great talking about the american jobs act. weed a few opportunities to bring in a broad cross section of people. today we had people from all over the country, many of whom have been working with us since day one. you know you often mention, reverend sharpton, how the economy has hit the african-american community particularly hard, many of who were suffering long before the economic crisis in 2008. so it was an opportunity to highlight all of the progress we've had made so far working

together in partnership, but brainstorm about what more we can do. we still have a long way to go. >> one of the things that's impressed me is people who have been with you a long time have been there, but a lot of young people, a lot of new people not part of the discussion, because some people just don't want to make room for new ideas, and the president and this white house has reached out to have a broader discussion with people that are in the trenches. i see this across the board with each constituency group, which may be why we're seeing the reactions the way we are, because the normal suspects are no longer calling all of the shots on the ground. >> we are include, we reach out broadly, and make sure we provide -- that's why we streamed or sessions today. we want urge vrn nchs are everyone who was with us, to

talk about what they learned and seek new ideas from the communities that they represent so this can be an inclusive administration. we talked a lot about private/public partnerships, about government working with state and local government. i think the theme is one inclusion. it's a holistic approach, and it was also a very hopeful session, and i think that there is a spirit on the ground outside of washington that wants to roll up our sleeves, focus on education, ways of improving opportunities for small businesses. when the president dropped by the session, it was terrific. the room went crazy, but he talked about how a simple thing such as we're now paying our small businesses in 15 days rather than 30 days. it seems like a small thing, but for a small business, that's on a shoestring budget, it can make the difference in the world.

today was rich with those kinds of ideas. >> thank you, as always, for your time. >> my pleasure, reverend. have a good evening. >> you too. joe walsh's meltdown is caught on tape. he lost his control, as his own event. >> quiet for a minute. >> quiet for a minute. quiet for a minute. and herman cain denies everything, but today even more details from one accuser. who will he say about it tonight? stay with us. [ male announcer ] cranberry juice? wake up!

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i've had some verbal battle with joe walsh on this show. he's known to say some outrageous and controversial things, but acting like that with his own constituents? here he is at his own event called cup of joe with joe. >> i agree with you about that. that's not the problem. >> then came this about the economic mess we're in. >> the government sets the rules. don't blame banks and don't blame the marketplace for the mess we're in right now.

i'm tired of hearing that crap. i'm tired of hearing that crap. >> so the situation, taking and throwing money to people who know they can't afford it. >> there are mechanisms in place. this just pisses me off. too many people don't listen. there are already mechanisms in place. you want to bombard them with more regulations? more government? >> first, let me disagree with the content of what walsh said. big banks engaged in high-risk lendsing that misled investors and secretly bet against them. they certainly contributed to the financial crisis. but what i realliant believe is his attitude toward his own constituents. this woman has a serious question, but she's staying respectful, she's even smiling, and he's get in her face, and pointing a finger at her. this video's gotten a lot of attention, and congressman walsh

has a response. he told the website, capitol facts.com, quote, i was working on an empty stomach and had a quicker fuse than normal. so walsh flipped out because he was hungry? that's funny, because as you can see, he was in a restaurant. but maybe the breakdown wasn't all bad. >> quite et for a minute. quiet for a minute, or i'm going to ask you to leave. you need to listen, or i'm going to ask you to leave. >> if walsh keeps talking like that, it would remind his constituents, they can ask him to leave, election day is less than a year away. ma aerwe is a re abte rerwe is

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contain's headache is only going to get worse. this morning the attorney for karen kreshower, one of the women, said she'll give a joint press conference to release new details of their stories. >> my client and i believe that it would be helpful to the public in judging this matter to see as many of the women as possible together, and hear the specifics. they were incidents of sexual harassment, which we will detail when we get to the joint press conference. >> today, another accuser, sharon bialek said he would share and did share in fact this morning the last time she saw cain at a tea party conference just a month ago. >> he clearly, clearly remembered me, clearly -- in fact, as i walked away from him, he turned around and gave me a

glance, a fruitive glance, and it was an uncomfortable one. >> herman cain is in damage control, but his campaign manager is only making it worse, with stapes that turn out to be totally fashion. false. >> karen kreshauer came out as one of the woman, and turns out her son works at politico. >> have you confirmed that? i've been hearing rumors about that. you've confirmed that now, right? >> we confirmed that he does indeed work at political, and that's his mother. >> no, the reporter block was talking about works for a totally different publication, and he's not even related. so herman cain has now blamed politico, rick perry, the media, liberal racists, the so-called

democrat machine, and the women themselves for this controversy. the only person that cain isn't blaming is himself. joining me now is nia malika henderson a "the washington post" national reporter who also writes for their election 2012 blog, and dana milbank, national political reporter for "the washington post." thank you both for joining me. >> thank you, reverend. >> thank you. >> do you expect more to be added to his blame list? >> at this point it's hard to keep track of who is on there. of course, you mentioned this latest episode of mark block pointingsh he hasn't worked there since 2010. they have since backed off and said they had misinformation, bad information. really they didn't have any information at all. this seems to be something they made up out of thin air, but

they're backing away from it now. i think tonight will be a big night for herman cain on stage with his rivals at the cnbc debate. it will be interesting to see how his rivals engage with the issues. do the candidates themselves bring it up? do they try to land a blow against herman cain with this issue that has consumed his campaign. now, dana, the reuters poll says after the allegation came out with the young lady that came forward, that 40% of gop voters see cain less favorably. this is before his press conference yesterday. before the attorney for accuser a said they would do a collective press conference, which he said on this show last night, even before that, he had gone down 40%, which means that nia's point about his opponents

maybe taking a shot at him is possible, but they may want to be cautious because of the diehards that are going to stay with cain no matter what, because he represents some far-right views. what do you think happens tonight, and do you think that someone takes the risk of going after him? do you think they all leave him alone? and the fact that it's a right-wing audience means that everyone will give him good applause? what happens, dana? >> i think the right strategy for them tonight is to let herman cain stew in otherwise own juice. he's in trouble, doing a great deal of damage to himself, so why give him the benefit of going on the attack against him. he said very clearly in his press conference that he only cares about those people supporting him. maybe that's 20%, 25% of the electorate.

a lot of people will buy into the line that he's being persecuted by the media, by other candidates, by washington, they'll buy into that, and i think they want to let him perish on his own without giving him any help. >> when you look at the response of these opponents, let's look at how they played this kind of like they're not going to make a big issue tonight, nia. look at these. >> i've been focused on my business and haven't paid a lot of attention. >> i hope herman cain can explaining it. >> i don't have any information on these allegations whatsoever. i have absolutely nothing to contribute. >> they're allegations. herman has an opportunity to tell his side of the story, and the american public can make a decision. >> it's a distraction, and herman cain can deal with it however he chooses to deal with it. >> so they seemed to all take a safe point at this point, but

nia, doesn't this in the words of dana, doesn't this leave him to stew in his own juice? and if we do see the drama of two to four women standing together, i mean, the drama of that, we've seen a lot of different scandals, and a lot of situations in politics. i don't know that we've ever seen anything like that. >> this would be a made for tv moment that's going to happen, apparently. 9 attorney and these women have been talking about this, so it's something we'll certainly see, and tell be a pivot point and possibly 'tipping point in herman cain's campaign. i think the clips you just showed definitely show his rivals are wary of attacking him, but i think the one to watch tonight is mitt romney. he's taken the adult $30,000 view on this, and call the the allegations disturbing, serious. he would be one to watch. i think also the republican strategists i have talked to have said there is a sense among

republicans that there is a sense of herman cain fatigue setting in, that is the sense that this has dragged on too long, he hasn't handled it well, and he at some point becomes a drag on the party. there isn't a sense he'll drop out, but there is a sense that he needs to stop talking about it. >> dana, nia raises a point there's no case he would drop out of the race. what do you think would have to happen to make him consider dropping out, or that would make others tell him it's time to go? >> i don't think he would care if others total him. in that press conference yesterday, he said he's never done anything inappropriate with anyone in his life. it doesn't get more blanket than that. it's sort of like a zombie movies that we all know herman

cain is dead, but he doesn't know it yet. one way or another he's going down. will it happen shortly before the iowa caucuses? it's hard to see exactly where that inflection point is where he decides he's had enough. >> do you believe that in the long run, as we head into the iowa caucus and beyond that it will be hard for mr. cain to move on back to 9-9-9 or whatever policy things he suggests, particularly if we're looking a potential press conferences and other fallout from this scandal? >> yes, i think it will be hard for him to move on. >> he has moved away from this period, and now everybody associates him with these allegations. some people don't believe him, some people think it's a

witch-hunt, and some people are doubling down, but this is where -- every time he's on tv, this is something that will be raised, but i do think that dana raises a good point. that is there was never a sense that herman cain was a viable presidential candidate to begin with. if you look at what george will said, he said even if herman cain does fix this, he's still not a viable presidential candidate. so i think there is in some ways a fatigue setting in, but also an understanding, this analysis that says essentially his candidacy is dead on arrival anyway. >> thank you both for joining mess tonight. dana, i did by the way notice you added me to the blame list. >> it's all your fault, reverend. >> don't asked me to the list. bill o'reilly said i hadn't spoken up, and you know how i hate to disappointed bill o'reilly.

>> what a shame. ahead, just weeks ago, willard took a stand on ohio. >> i fully support governor kasich's -- i think it's called question 2 in ohio. fully support that. >> uh-oh, how is he going to get out of that one? we'll get a chance to see at tonight's gop debate. a preview is coming up. ask me. even if you think you can live with your old mattress...

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tradearchitect. only from td ameritrade. welcome to better trade commission free for 60 days when you open an account. for the first time in years, things in detroit are beginning to look up a little. the lions are having a great season, the tigers almost made it to the world series, and the automakers are making money, hiring workers and reinvesting in america. thanks to president obama and the auto bailout. it was a hand up, not a handout. it saved an industry, saved jobs, but every sing the republican who will be on stage at tonight's debate in michigan said it shouldn't happen. three years ago, mitt romney said we should, quote, let detroit go bankrupt. a view he's repeated over and

over again. >> billions and billions was written to bail out the industry, and then they realized that was not the answer. were there some institutions that should not have been bailed out? absolute slid. should they have used the funds to bail out general motors and chrysler? >> it points on the that they needed to go through bankruptcy to shed those costs. >> you want, quote, if general motors, ford and chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for, you can kits the american automotive industry good-bye. >> that's right exactly right. >> the american people did write a check, willard. it saved 1.4 million jobs and prevented nearly 100 billion in personal income losses. that's pretty good thing that president obama and the american people ignored your advice. joining me now, bob shrum, former senior adviser to the

kerry and gore campaigns, no professor at nyu, and e.j. fo " washington post." today he wrote about the right-wing's shellacking in tuesday's election. thank you to both for being here. bob, can mitt romney win michigan? >> i don't think he can. i think he'll be held accountable for this. the truth is michigan would be flat on his back. that bailout, the federal government will do well on, most of that money is going to tum back. there was a telltale sign in a new poll that came out in ohio today. the states are very similar economically. the president has a nine-point lead over romney who has a 28/48 favorable/unfavorable. >> and romney, for viewers, romney was born in michigan, and his father had been governor of

michigan. for him to have this kind of attitude and looking this weak is very interesting. >> i think what's coming through, and they're pushing people into positions like this. romney is trying to explain this position away like he tries to explain every other position away, but i think what you're seeing is a real disconnect between people as concerns about the economy, and they're veg real, and their willingness to accept any of these republicans as a plausible alternative. >> e.j., you wrote aung article today that caught the attention of the chatter crowd as well as bob and i. there are those that chatter and both that matter. >> that's good. >> you talk about the shellacking yesterday. explain. >> well, i think in race after race after race, yesterday's eelection was brought to you by

the word "overreach." and this antilabor move against public employees proved to be very unpopular well beyond public workers. in maine, trying to restrict access to the ballot box, that was turned back by voters. in arizona, you had a guy who's really put up vicious anti-immigration legislation, and he lost a recall to another conservative, but the conser conservative said we have to be more civil. in iowa, the democrats held onto a state senate, where one seat -- you can go onened on. in all these cases, it's the republican party that took an election victory, that was really about the economy. they had an opportunity here to start building a new majority. instead, they moved way over to the right and scared a lot of middle-class, middle of the road voters who had helped put them in office.

if they go on like this, they'll have a lot of trouble next year, bob, you're a celebrated strategist. the right-wing tea party types, grover nor quist, kind of really made all of the gop primary candidates go far right. they had to go way over to the right to satisfy them. now you see the election that e.j. just described, so you have romney, who came out against what happened overwhelmingly was voted against yesterday in terms of the initiative how do they get back to the senate when they have gone so far right? how does whoever bums a nominee get back to the center after taking these far right positions in ohio, in michigan, in states they're going to need to win if they have any chance in the electoral college. >> listen, i think romney is the only plausible nominee in this crew. i think he's probably going to

be the nominee, though republicans resist him and rightly. they're suspicious that he actually believes in anything other than himself. i think he'll have a hard time. what's he going to do? flip-flop-flip? i don't see that happening. i think this process has erodses his standing with voters. that's what those numbers are about. that's why in the nbc/"wall street journal" poll, at a time of great economic dissatisfaction, the president is beating him. by the way, they have an inconvenient rule in politics. you can't get into the general election unless el get nominated. this year you have to run the hurdles to get the nomination. >> but the right-wing hurdles, e.j., and if i'm reading your column correctly, has forced them so far right, it's almost like you got so far out into the water, you can't get back in time to the show. >> i think there's a lot to that. i like that metaphor. you know, i think that they do

have a long time to go, and let's face it, politicians sometimes are fairly artful as they shift over and over, but you know, i was struck when i saw that headline in "new york times" on mitt romney's piece, let detroit go bankrupt. what it reminded me of is a headline in "the new york daily news" back in 1976, when a good president pore wouldn't help out new york city when it was going broke, and the headline, ford to city -- drop del. was used over and over in new york by the carter campaign. i think we'll see that headline used a lot in michigan in 2012. >> just for the record. >> carter won. fort almost came back, but if ford hadn't done that and hadn't also stumbled on a question on whether policyland was part of

the soviet empire, he might have won. le was a pro-choice republican. >> well, ford maybe should have said he doesn't know. bob shrum and e.j. dionne, thanks. >> good to be with you. >> thank you. ahead, not so long ago, herming cain was the pizza guy no one knew. what a difference a presidential race makes. next. want to make a healthy choice for your hair?

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em dhrathe ridiculously long lasting gum. caonm fo ffoismeediculously long lasting gum. ♪ getting to know you ♪ getting to know all about you ♪ >> now that the gop race is heating up, we're really getting to know these candidates. it's not pretty. herman cain is in the spotlight as more sexual harassment

charges come to light. we've also learned the 9-9-9 plan is a massive giveaway to the rich, but the discovery that the person he might be the person he most valued. >> a businessman by the name of herman cain. >> herman cain. >> why is herman cain doing so well in the polls? >> herman cain. >> herman cain doesn't have a chance. >> herman cain. that's the person herman cain s is. >> then there's rick perry. we also learned that when the pressure is on, he starts to crack. >> this is such a cool state. i mean, come on. live free or die? i mean, it's like, live free or die, victory or death. bring it. if they pretty any more money there in washington, the gold is going to be good. >> today has been awesome, girl!

>> then we have mitt romney. he'll let your home go into foreclosure while claiming he's a man of the people, but when a florida doctor sitting next to him on a plane tried to talk about health care, willard wasn't of the people then. >> he just looked at me blankly and said i understand, and he put his ear buds in, and he's riding around in coach trying to look like one of us, four minutes out of two hours, i don't think i was being out of line just to want to speak a minute. >> well, i'm not one to pick on candidates. i ran for president. we all have flaws, we all make mistakes. god knows i've made mine, but i'll give you some advice, fellas. people expecting to be what you say you are. if you're not that, they can accept you not being perfect, but don't act like they're stupid. there's a difference between people being unemployed or being