we're inside the audio booth here from for "morning joe" on too early." a lot of people ask for the music comes from, comes from these two guys. he's got twitter feed right now @morningmusic, you can offer your insights on the music, offer requests. bob writes i watch willie's show every day live, 5:30 a.m. is 5:30 p.m. in thailand. >> thailand. okay. we love it. we're big in thailand. i want to give one shoutout here at the end this morning to iava, they had the gala last night, they were nice enough to include me. i presented an award to marine corporal aaron mankin who is an incredible young man.

you'll see him on "morning joe" at 8:30 this morning. there he is in purple with stephen colbert. "morning joe" starts right now. . i'm glad i had my boots on tonight because i sure stepped in it out there. >> you did step in it. how did you feel? >> well, i'll tell you what? i named two more agencies of government than what the current administration has talked about getting rid of and energy just wouldn't come out. >> the bottom line is, i may have forgotten energy, but i hadn't forgotten my conservative principles, and that's what this campaign is really going to be about. >> all right. good morning, it's thursday, november 10th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle who is ready to go home. >> mm-hmm. >> you're done, right? and with us from the site of

last night's debate in rochester, michigan, msnbc and "time" magazine political analyst mark haleprin. good to have you with, mark, jon, mike, hi, willie. >> hi, willie, how are you? >> i don't even want to see it. >> i don't want to see it either. >> so let's show it. >> so let's show it. >> let's get it out of the way. >> do we have to get it out of the way? >> i do. this is -- i don't -- i'm not going to -- i want to take my ear piece out. >> i feel like saying good morning, mika, good morning, joe, and good morning -- >> just stop. >> there's a -- >> mark haleprin -- >> i know you guys. >> that's mean. >> where's mark right now? >> he's in michigan. rochester. >> hey, mark, so last night's debate will be remembered for years to come. >> they're calling it an epic gaffe. >> for one reason.

tell us what happened last night, and is it the end of rick perry's campaign? >> well, governor perry was having a decent debate, not a great one, he was a little bit left out of the mix as he's been in some of the previous contests, and when it got to a point where he was trying to drill his message about limited government, he's got this litany of three departments he'd eliminate. and for whatever reason he could not remember the department of energy -- energy is like -- >> also how he handled it. we're going to play this clip, mark. and then on the page this morning, you have quotes from across the country, including some from his top campaign supporters saying he should just go back to texas. let's roll the clip. >> three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce, education, and -- the -- what's the third one there. let's see. >> five. >> oh, five. commerce, education, and the -- >> epa? >> epa.

there you go. >> let's talk -- >> seriously? >> is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir, we were talking about the agencies of government. epa needs to be rebuilt, there's no doubt about that. >> you can't name the third one. >> the third agency of government, i would do away with education, the -- commerce -- and let's see, i can't the third one i can't, i'm sorry. oops. >> john? >> tough. >> well, look, everybody has these moments in life. >> not everybody. >> everybody has -- >> everybody's had them -- >> let's underline that. >> not on this big of stage. >> everybody's had that in life. and i want to say for the record, we've had a lot of really brilliant people come on this set, they're shocked there are no teleprompters. i a lot of people today that are

going to be writing nasty things about how rick perry's stupid, and they come on here shaking because there's no safety net. and i've seen a lot of people on this set screw up, i've screwed up. it can help to all of us. so now let's explain, though, why this was more devastating to rick perry than if newt gingrich had done it. >> there are two problems. the first is this builds on all -- the establish narrative. he has made these mistakes in debates, not performed well. the scrutiny on his debate performance is higher, he's got to do better than average, instead he did this thing that confirmed everybody's worst caricature of him. the second problem is that in this age of youtube, this clip will live forever. and it's like the way that katie couric mockery by tina fay of sarah palin lives forever. it will be played forever on an endless loop. this defines him, reinforcing the stereotype, and it is

timeless, never goes away. >> mike? >> well, you're absolutely right. everyone has these moments, multiple moments like this every day. >> before breakfast. >> yeah. i think it ends his candidacy as a serious candidate for president. >> let me stop there and we'll get back to you. does everybody agree with that? do you agree with that? >> it probably does. but i don't think one moment on its own should. >> do you think this ends it? >> i don't think 100% because there's no romney alternative right now. perry's probably the only one in this race who would have a good chance of beating romney if he got him one-on-one. he still has money in the bank. i'm not saying he's got a good chance anymore, but i don't make it zero. >> and mark, that leads to the second element i was about to mention. one, does it dry up his money? we'll find that out shortly. but two, it overshadows what i thought was just mitt romney crushed that ball last night. i mean, he hit that ball out of

the park last night. he was so strong from the beginning of the debate to the end of the debate. and now, you know, rick perry being very human with this gaffe overshadows romney's really spectacular performance. >> let's go to mitt romney. and the first thing that he defended himself on as one of the key things that people talk about with him, and that is flip-flopping. here's what he did. >> john, i think people know me pretty well, particularly in this state, in the state of massachusetts, new hampshire, close by, utah where i served in the olympics. people understand i'm a man of steadiness and consistency. i've been married for the same woman for -- excuse me, for 42 years. i've been in the same church my entire life. i worked at one company, bain for 25 years and i left that to

go off and help save the olympic games. i think it's outrageous that the obama campaign continues to push this idea when you have in the obama administration the most political presidency we've seen in modern history. they're actually deciding when to pull out of afghanistan based on politics. >> mark haleprin, do you agree that mitt romney crushed the ball last night as mike barnicle said? >> i do, joe. and i think the clip you just showed, if you're talking about determining the next president of the united states, that clip you just showed is far and away the most significant thing that happened last night. not going to get as much attention as rick perry or herman cain. but romney's attempts to rebrand himself as a man of consistency and principle will determine whether he can beat barack obama or not. he's mentioned his long marriage, his time at bain capital, and his faith before in different context, but that litany, i think you'll hear it again. and if he's successful in rebranding himself with litany, it'll gi him a better chance.

>> mark, go through your report card. we've got a lot of news this morning, and i want to see what everyone else thinks of the debate. go through your report card. >> romney got an "a," just a strong overall performance, once again, looked like the only president on the stage, once again, lucky night because no one went after him. gingrich, b minus, looking too cranky, i think he would help himself -- >> i was going to ask, you wonder how long that act's going to work. you give huntsman a "b" minus. >> he was good. he is still putting himself out there with a personality and a demeanor that i think will play well in new hampshire and, again, if you assume he'll be romney alternative, i'm not sure there will be. i think huntsman and gingrich are the two leaders. they presented themselves as somebody looking for a romney

alternative. that may be the place to go, he gave people a reason to want to park with him. >> and you talk about the wagon circling around herman cain. you saw the audience last night, you saw it on talk radio yesterday, you saw the right wing blogosphere yesterday, you saw it on fox news yesterday, you're seeing it everywhere. the right is taking herman cain's problems as a personal affront. and we saw it there last night. >> some people on the right are still defending him, but the lines he gave last night, which in the past fueled a rise, i think are just almost a side show now. he's going to have to get some luck and hope that some of these accusers are discredited or, i think, last night may be the last time he's treated like a front-runner, a serious candidate on the stage. polls are still holding, let's see what happens. >> they're holding, but mika, if you look at the front page of the "new york times," he's hired a lawyer who has threatened future accusers saying they better watch out.

you've got rush limbaugh trashing him, citing their locations and how close they live to david axelrod. the "wall street journal" is going after these women aggressively. it is a -- it is -- you talk about a scorched strategy, the right is going after any woman that speaks out against herman cain. and i've got to say in an unprecedented aggressive way. and you saw last night the crowd. i say unprecedented. actually, though, i'm sorry, i was there in the 1990s, the left did the same thing for bill clinton. >> as did the clinton campaign. >> as did -- and james carville. >> they're following the clinton play book on this. >> you see, i just did a rick perry, i just forgot. i was there at that little fire. and you're darn right. >> don't forget -- >> they trashed absolutely everybody. >> i think what was interesting was the crowd response last night because he was confronted about this. and take a look.

>> here we're focusing on character and judgment. you've been a ceo. >> yes. >> you know that shareholders are reluctant to hire a ceo where there are character issues. why should the american people hire a president if they feel there are character issues? >> the american people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations. that's what -- and i value my character and my integrity more than anything else. and for every one person that comes forward with a false accusation, there are thousands who would say none of that sort of activity ever came from herman cain. >> you know, i -- i have nothing to say about this because it just seems to me that it's an ugly situation that will

ultimately go away when it comes to the presidential race, am i wrong? >> no, i don't think you're wrong. i think this will be a footnote because i don't think herman cain's going to have staying power. >> seriously, no discipline. no, quiet, okay, thanks. as far as some of the other candidates are concerned, i think jon huntsman was kind of interesting. he tried very hard to show that he had empathy for the people who are hurting in this country and also in some cases where all of these candidates have a platform, he's actually done it. he's actually done it and executed it. i wish he was a little bit higher up on the score card. >> huntsman, he had -- >> you're still not allowed to talk, heilemann, go ahead. >> he was asked to talk about the occupy wall street movement. but he had a very interesting take on it. not necessarily a purely political take on it. the same take, i think, that anyone who would, you know, involve themselves with talking to people in that movement would have. pretty interesting.

>> he twice said that he thought too big to fail was wrong. and we need to do something about that, they're too big. and i haven't heard a republican get in that place. if he says i don't like the anticapitalist sentiment on occupy wall street, but he brought it up twice yesterday, and i sort of started to see they're going to make their way around to that slight populism, which has not been part of this profile before. >> there are a lot of republicans, a lot of republicans. most of the republicans that elected me in northwest florida. i would guess a lot of herman cain supporters that agree with that, that are just as anti-too big to fail as they are anti-government being too big to fail. >> i wasn't meaning to suggest the republicans didn't say that -- >> no, the candidates. what i'm saying is these candidates have a blind spot for their electorate.

>> you always talk about the extremes fading a way over the long haul. if you look at mark haleprin's report card, mitt romney gets an "a," and look at the other names on the list, you could put huntsman somewhere in the middle. but we had rick perry doing what he did last night, herman cain still addressing sexual harassment allegations, michele bauchmann all but a footnote at this point. who on that score card, we keep talking about an anti-romney candidate. >> it's the top three. it really is. you know, the thing is, perry is finished. huntsman sitting at 1% in south carolina, he's sitting at 1% nationally, he's at 5%, 6%, 7%, 8% of new hampshire. he's got to catch fire in south carolina. but i've got to say, those are the only three that can go to the distance. maybe huntersman stays at 1%, but he's got a shot. gingrich, i think gingrich is moving in as we said a couple of weeks ago, he's moving into that

second spot. those top three people on that list are the only three people that can win the nomination. mark it down, i know it's going to tick a lot of people off. i'm sorry, that's the reality and i hate to tell you the truth when it upsets you so much. i don't want to screw up your morning, i'm just always right. i know that offends you too, but go ahead. right wing bloggers. seriously, i know it drives you crazy, i was right about bauchmann, perry, i'm right all the time and i know my republican party better than you know your republican party and it pisses you off. i'm always right and you're always wrong. go ahead. >> the people who are upset and going to start tweeting from the basement -- >> with their chee-tos. >> should take a look at the calendar, in effect, with christmas and new year's, you have six weeks to do this. >> yeah. >> come on. the romney campaign right now, i think joe your analysis seems right to me. they have newt gingrich to worry

about in iowa and they have, i think, probably jon huntsman to worry about in new hampshire. and if they can fend off those challengers. i think romney was starting to lean in on iowa. the temptation is much stronger. if they can steal that victory in iowa, shut it down in new hampshire, he's the nominee. >> you know, that's the scenario. you're exactly right. but mark haleprin, let's say -- and i've got to say right now, big -- put big money on mitt romney winning this thing. but let's say newt gingrich wins iowa. and then let's say we go to new hampshire and you have mitt romney maybe not winning by as much as he should win by. let's say jon huntsman keeps it close. or for some reason romney loses new hampshire, he stumbles into south carolina and there's a real problem. they've got to win one of those two states. >> i think he probably does have to win one of those two. the thing about newt gingrich is right now, it's a bit of a paradigm. he's most likely to get

one-on-one with romney, but he's the least likely to be able to beat him. i don't think there's a single state including iowa today that he can actually win in an effect -- that would be a two-person race. he's got too big of a ceiling. if you look at everybody in this race, including herman cain and jon huntsman, rick perry, everyone has had opposition research dumped on them through the debates. nobody's laid a glove on gingrich. there's so much you can do on newt gingrich, personal, professional, flip-flops, once that starts and romney's team will be very effective, it's run by a former opposition researcher, once that starts, i don't think he can get above 20%, 25%, maybe 30% in any state. romney's ceiling will be higher than that. >> and ron paul, let's talk about a second for, he wins one straw poll after another. i think most people are waiting for him to win more than 11%, 12% in any state. and if he does that, he gets into the mix. but until that happens, he will

still be nibbling at the top tier. coming up, we're going to talk to senator pat toomey about the super committee's deadline. also debbie wasserman schultz will be here. and penn state, a sad, sad story. >> let's go to bill karins for a check on the forecast. yesterday all the buzz was about the huge super storm hitting alaska. the pictures are coming in, but a lot of people saying it doesn't look that bad. this is western alaska, not many people live in this area. the storm is now gone, this is what it looked like in nome at the heart of the storm. 90-mile-per-hour winds, drifting and snow throughout the area and a 10-foot snow surge in the downtown area. this was literally a hurricane blizzard, but not a lot of infrastructure to destroy. let's discuss what we're going to deal with in the lower 48.

rain approaching areas of southern new england. if you're on long island, rhode island, massachusetts, and maine, be prepared for a wet day. we have a potential for 1 to 2 inches up in areas of eastern new england. forecast today, this is the end of our great stretch of weather for us. the middle of the country, we had snow flakes in minneapolis and chicago. you may see a flurry or two today. it's a cold morning with low windchills down into texas. but at least you're dry throughout all of the middle of the country. you're watching "morning joe." also, be careful, a lot of fog down to d.c. this morning, it's a cause for a slow commute. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses...

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something to me, that's not your cue to talk. mike barnicle is talking to me. >> where do you learn to talk over -- >> we don't need more than one joe. >> that's right. >> we begin with our parade of papers. >> now i'm feeling a little better. >> this is on me, baby. the birmingham news, unbelievable news. first we lose to lsu and then this. the birmingham news says the largest municipal bankruptcy in u.s. history just happened in alabama. and alabama's jefferson county specifically more than $4 billion in debt, jefferson county's filed for chapter 9 protection. unable to repay money that it borrowed to fix its broken sewer system. the governor was unable to save the day. and that's what happened. the wisconsin state journal says former president richard nixon's grand jury testimony on watergate, which has been sealed for some 36 years will be released today. a professor at the university of

wisconsin madison won a court challenge to make the documents public. the nixon library is also releasing thousands of pages of other watergate-era documents, including 45 minutes of recordings made by nixon. and the fayetteville observer says the former air force radio announcer whose high energy imagination inspired "good morning, vietnam" is going to be at the celebrations this weekend. 73-year-old avery cronhower, let's remember veterans day. you know, talk about unsealing indictments, what you were telling me about what happened at penn state. >> oh, yeah. >> your reading it. it's shocking on so many counts. just an absolute failure by all adults in that program to stand up and protect the youngest and the most helpless. >> and strange scenes in

pennsylvania state college last night. >> yeah. >> groups of students in the streets flipping over news vans. >> yes. >> i was hoping to get to that in news and we never did. >> i would suggest that none of the students read what i have in my hand right here, which is the grand jury report. if they read that, they might have gone back in their dorm rooms and studied. >> you raised a great question talking about this report. a 10-year-old little boy -- and i hate to be graphic, but people need to know this. a 10-year-old little boy was raped in the shower stall, allegedly, by this coach. a 28-year-old -- >> graduate assistant. >> graduate assistant walked in and saw it and turned around and did nothing. i mean, he talked to paterno who did nothing, who talked to the athletic director who did nothing. who among us around this table. who among us in decent society if we saw a 10-year-old boy

being raped by a football coach in the most grotesque way would not stop it immediately and take the disadvantaged little boy and take him into protective services and tell the coach to sit right there until the police came to pick him up. who among us would not do that? what decent human being could walk away from a 10-year-old -- >> i don't think i'd be that polite to the coach. >> i would -- i would have to refrain from really hurting the coach. what -- what civil human being? what normal human being would allow that to happen? >> well -- >> and why are they protesting the dismissal of all these people? >> why were they not in the streets in outrage last week when these revelations -- why were they not in the streets in outrage over the victims? >> why does every time this

occurs in a large scale and becomes publicized from the catholic church on through penn state, the initial instinct of the people is to gather around and protect the reputation of the institution. and the victims, they fall off into the background. it's always protect the institution, protect joe paterno, protect penn state, protect the catholic church. there's a pattern here. >> protect the priest, move him to another diocese. >> it's very similar. >> i'll tell you what they did. here's how they handled it. after this 28-year-old graduate assistant went to joe paterno, told him what he saw, he went to the athletic director told him what he saw, the athletic director came back two weeks later to the graduate assistant and said here's how we handle it. sandusky's keys to the locker room have been taken away. that's what they did. took away his keys to the locker room after someone witnessed. >> so they saw, willie, a 10-year-old boy being raped?

>> this graduate assistant. >> committing a crime, raped, and they took away a guy's keys to the locker room. >> and asked him to stay away from campus for a while. >> every person in this situation is involved in a criminal conspiracy. >> it's a criminal conspiracy. >> frankly, if these allegations can be proven, they should all be in jail. >> they all -- >> all of them, every single one of them. and i actually think of all of those guys, the 28-year-old graduate assistant who in that human moment did not react is for one who can feel contempt. but joe paterno was the guy, this was his program. if somebody comes to the -- joe paterno has been the coach there for his entire life, comes to joe paterno and says i just saw one of the people who works for you doing this in your locker room effective l iiveffectively. for joe paterno to not turn over the program and call the cops is the very first thing he should be doing. it's the moral responsibility of him more than anyone i think. >> you're absolutely right to pass this along to the a.d. is a

joke. >> it's a joke. >> anybody that knows how powerful these head coaches are in these top programs knows -- >> he's a king there. >> they dominate not only the football program -- >> the whole university. >> the athletic program, the entire university, the entire system. what joe paterno says, goes, and when he said nothing, he allowed this boy to be raped and other people to be raped. i say this as a guy who has loved joe paterno my entire life, this is absolutely disgraceful. >> what is the conversation that happens when these issues are brought to light by the 28-year-old assistant coach? or by the janitor? what are they saying to each other? let's cover this up? let's not talk about this? or we'll just take care of it by taking -- i don't even understand the terminology that could be used? >> and the problem is, they're allowing a predator to keep hunting! >> right. >> factor this into your thinking about this off of what john heilemann pointed out.

after they punished jerry sandusky by taking his keys away from him -- >> which means they knew -- they knew, they knew, they knew. >> of course they knew, they saw it. >> he continues to show up at football games, penn state games on the sidelines with young kids. now they know what they've seen. they know what the 28-year-old graduate assistant has seen in 2002, and yet he is still around, still with young kids, and nobody says anything? >> willie, it is -- it is unfathomable. >> the way it happened yesterday was that joe paterno offered his resignation at the end of the season. then the board of trustees of the school got together and decided he needed to be fired immediately. they couldn't have him on that sideline in the football stadium on saturday. the president of the school was relieved too. this was joe paterno outside of his house after that announcement last night.

>> hey, look, get a good night's sleep. study, all right. we still got things to do. i'm out of it maybe now. a phone call put me out of it. but we'll go from here. good luck, everybody. one thing, thanks and pray a little bit for those victims. >> pray a little bit for those victims said joe paterno. the people in the streets defending joe paterno last night haven't read this report. they think there's some gray area in this grand jury testimony. because the athletic director says the graduate assistant never told them explicitly that there was rape going on just that there was "horsing around." now, even if there's horsing around if you walk in or you hear about a 60-year-old football coach with a naked 10-year-old boy, even if they're just horsing around, you pursue that. >> but the specifics -- >> you don't take his keys away.

>> i won't say specifically what was happening on this morning show, but the specifics are horrific that no one could define that as "horsing around." >> even to willie's point, if the 28-year-old athletic director comes to paterno and goes to the athletic director and says the 60-year-old coach is in here with that minor in the locker room, even just on that basis alone, what is he doing there? what are they doing in the locker room alone? any definition of horsing around under those circumstances should be a reason for, you know, a deep immediate investigation of the charges even if there was no specificity. we have to get to the bottom of that. let's get this guy in here. it's crazy. >> and yet, mike barnicle, as you say -- and i'm sure we're going to see pictures of this. this alleged rapist of young boys was allowed after this to be standing on the sidelines of the penn state sidelines with

little boys. >> yeah. but they took his keys away. >> so it was mothers ultimately who brought this to light? i'm trying to review if that's the case. >> and we're hearing now since this story came out this week that the d.a.'s getting dozens now of calls from -- >> of course he is. >> of course. >> and to think about how many opportunities they had. before 2002, a janitor, a janitor saw something and reported and nothing was done. so if you take from 1998 to today, think how many more boys were victimized because nobody said anything -- >> and how many more lives were destroyed? >> if you hear of it, speak out. >> we'll be right back with "politico's" mike allen. ♪ [ female announcer ] give a little cheer to a family of a soldier. just cut out the cheer from your specially marked box of cheerios, write your message, and we'll see that they get it. they won't be beat. oh, actually...

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wow. look at that picture of the united states capitol is somewhere in there. 6:38 in the morning. mike allen with a look at the playbook. mike. good morning. >> hey, good morning, guys. >> we're getting new polls hot off the press head to head in swing states between president obama and mitt romney. why don't you take us through these? we'll start in florida. i don't know if you have these numbered, mike. 45%, 42%, essentially deadlocked in florida. >> romney leading obama. >> and another interesting florida stat is cain is way up on romney six points.

so he's holding firm despite all of this publicity. >> cain is way up on romney in florida? >> yeah, he's up six, yeah. >> up six points. oka okay. move to the state of ohio. the president leads romney 45%, 42%. we're looking at deadlock races. >> yeah, but the -- that ohio slide is the most interesting one because the obama people are much more optimistic about ohio after last night, that big union victory there two nights ago. they had been sort of putting ohio aside when they made their presentations to donors and others. they had said we don't have to have ohio. you know, we've got virginia and colorado, we don't have to have ohio and florida. now they're saying ohio might be obama country coming up. >> but mark haleprin, if you look at the other ohio race, the other ohio ballot initiative that basically was -- it was symbolic, but it was to nullify

barack obama's health care plan. the mandate. that passed overwhelmingly even with all the union voters out there. it was a mixed bag for barack obama. great for unions, but it wasn't a mixed bag for barack obama? >> well, the money that was spent by the progressive side was spent on the union measure. they didn't try to drive vote. you're right, there were people at the polls who you would've thought would've voted in favor of the health care law. they didn't try to win that fight. i don't think there's a direct comparison there. and i also don't know that health care is going to be something the administration tries to run particularly hard on compared to other issues out there. on the republican horse race and the nomination fight. the last day they were in the field was the day of the televised press conference of one of the accusers. everyone we know thinks cain is dead and that the polls are going to start showing that. this poll -- these polls don't give us a good sense of it.

cain is still riding high in these battleground states against romney, but the bulk of the story, the white hat part of it that has hurt him wasn't covered by the length of this survey. >> they're pretty much deadlocked in florida, ohio, and deadlocked in the state of pennsylvania. 44% for obama, 43% for mitt romney. what do these polls tell you if you look at these three put together, mike? >> well, the obama people are least worried about pennsylvania. they think it's going to stay -- in the end that'll be a democratic state, republicans aren't going to try to put it in play. survey like this gives them the ammunition to do that just as democrats are going to try to put arizona in play. probably will wind up republican, but they're going to try to make a game there. >> is pennsylvania fool's gold this year? >> it is always fool's gold. look for the articles starting in early september after labor day talking about how this year because barack obama doesn't

have that central pennsylvanian vote that republicans are going to pick it up and wait for that story coming and, wait, wait -- third week of october -- >> uh-oh. >> they hear that the republicans have pulled out all their money. >> republicans back by six. >> oh, no, exactly, pennsylvania fool's gold. >> don't forget scranton's joe biden. >> scranton's joe biden. there you go. >> mike allen, we'll see you. >> have a good day. coming up next, mika's must-read opinion pages, and later we'll watch as a sitting u.s. congressman gets excited during a political debate in a bar. we'll be right back. this new at&t 4g lte is fast.

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okay. welcome back to "morning joe." 46 past the hour. time now for the must-read opinion pages. there are a lot. about the rick perry situation. i just don't think we need to go over it. it was embarrassing. >> i'm with you. >> yeah. okay. i kind of feel bad for him. is that all right too? >> yes. >> "washington post," the right's shalacking. a strong vote in ohio against the health insurance mandate. while health reform supporters argued that the ballot question was misleading. the result spoke to the truly terrible job democrats have done in defending what they enacted. they can't let the health care law remain a policy stepchild. that useful warning aside, tuesday's results underscored the power of unions and populist politics. the danger to conservatives of extremism and the fact that 2010 was no mandate for right-wing

policies. they also mean that if republicans don't back away from an agenda that makes middle class americans deeply uncomfortable and in some cases angry, they will lose the rather more important fight of 2012. is it possible, john heilemann, this could have implications in the presidential race, as well? >> yeah, one of the things the president needs to do to win reelection is to get a decent chunk of the white working class vote. in a lot of big battleground states, in ohio in particular, all throughout the midwest. and as we see in a lot of this polling, a populist tendency that's coming out in that group of voters. and on these -- a lot of these issues where republicans -- things like on collective bargaining. this is fertile ground for the president, and they look at ohio and say this is an augers well for us. >> and i notice mark haleprin who is still with us from

michigan, that the republicans candidates last night were very carefully dealing with the occupy wall street issue. >> well, that debate -- nbc news "wall street journal" poll shows that sentiment that things are out of whack, that powerful interests, corporate interests are getting too much and the rules are fixed, that transcends the normal 50/50 divide of the nation. mitt romney last night talked about defending the middle class. jon huntsman reaching out to some extent. that attempt just as barack obama has attempted to coopt the tea party, that attempt by the republicans to coopt some of that populist left anger is going to be absolutely essential if they're going to have a chance to win in some of those battleground states. i think the administration probably cannot turn that around. they have to hope that health care isn't a dominate issue in the race because i don't think there's the time or ability for them to get people to look more favorably at the law between now and the election, particularly

with the supreme court out there. >> as usual, mark haleprin, i think, is right on. they've got to skirt around health care because it's a big question mark out there. out of ohio you can take perhaps the inference, the lesson largely learned. this country is still about fairness. >> yes. >> you can try to frame it up ideologically as e.j. did, as he does nearly twice a week every week in the washington post, but ideology aside, it's about fairness. do people think about what's going on is fair? and the answer is, they don't. >> i thought mayor bloomberg had interesting things to say about the tax code and whether or not, you know, the bush tax cuts should be scaled back and how they should be across the board and you can't parse out these choices, and it does come down to fairness. i also think that, you know, there are moral questions at play. especially in terms of the state of this country in terms of the

disparity. it's immoral. >> and this is why the two things do come together. this notion of attempts to curtail collective bargaining set against this populist thing mark pointed out. 73% of the country think the system is rigged against them. people think the income inequality is growing and they're right and they think the system is stacked against them, and then they see a republican governor trying to take away one small little piece that unions have, and they say as mike says, that's just not fair. i mean, we're -- we've been losing for 20 years here, we don't need to give up one more thing. >> no, we don't, really, truly. i can't do the other must-read, alex? that's not fair. >> that's not fair at all. >> no. we have two hours and ten more minutes, maybe i'll get to it. maybe i'll get a word in edgewise, we'll see. in a few more minutes, we'll bring in david gregory, and

chuck todd, and willie's news you can't use is next. ♪

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all right, it's time. >> time for the news you can't use. >> joe walsh, republican of the state of illinois having a little town hall meeting in -- >> he's the dead beat dad. >> what? >> i think this stands on its

own. we don't have to bring that in. >> he was with the eagles for a while. >> yeah, for a while. >> mika, tell them. >> be quiet. >> hey, guys, shut up. >> she's good at this. >> you shouldn't say that. that's not polite. >> anyway, he's having a town hall meeting at the pizzeria and got a little excited. he was arguing with some of the constituents about the role the banks played in our financial crisis. >> it's good to hear from your constituents. >> i agree with you about that. that's not the problem! don't blame banks and don't blame the marketplace for the mess we're in right now. i am tired of hearing that crap! >> so don't -- >> i'm tired of hearing that crap. >> because honestly -- >> you know what you've got -- >> the banks -- >> that's tieing everybody's hands. you wanted more reform and more regulation, that's what you got. do you want more regulation? is that what you want? do you want dodd/frank? >> what did i say back at

joe's -- >> i need more coffee. quiet for a minute. quiet for a minute! or i'm going to ask you to leave. you need to listen. i'm going to ask you to leave. >> i made the mistake of doing this on a very empty stomach with a little too much coffee, which sort of got me a little too fired up. it was too much coffee and no food. i downed a couple quick cups, which was probably a mistake. >> next time food. decaf and away we go. >> yes. >> we've got tape from joe screaming at his constituents -- i'm just kidding. >> really? >> who does that? no! >> berating your constituents is not a good strategy. and then blame the coffee. >> empty stomach. >> no.

looks like maybe some impulse issues. yeah. just nothing's -- >> i will tell you this, though. not really good at town hall meetings, but when he gets a slide right here starts playing that slide guitar. >> that wa-wa thing. >> joe walsh, early '70s. he needs to go back to the guitar. >> i love that man. >> ezra klein, pat toomey will join us when we come back. our machines help identify early stages of cancer, and it's something that we're extremely proud of. you see someone who is saved because of this technology, you know that the things that you do in your life matter. if i did have an opportunity to meet a cancer survivor, i'm sure i could take something positive away from that. [ jocelyn ] my name is jocelyn. and i'm a cancer survivor. [ woman ] i had cancer. i have no evidence of disease now.

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> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce, education, and the -- what's the third one there? let's see. oh, five. so commerce, education, and the -- >> epa? >> epa, there you go, no, okay. >> let's talk -- >> seriously? is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir. no, sir, we were talking about the -- agencies of government -- epa needs to be rebuilt, there's no doubt about that. >> you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government, i would do away with education, the -- the -- commerce, and l's see, i can't -- the third one i can't, i'm sorry. oops. >> it's just so painful. welcome back to "morning joe." john heilemann is still with us

along with mark haleprin. joining us at the table we have the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory, and ezra klein. >> and john heilemann, i don't think any song has ever been more appropriate than meatloaf song "bat out of hell" last night. >> two out of three ain't bad. >> holy, i'm going to say cow. it happens to all of us. it happens to all of us. >> absolutely. you're walking around thinking whh agency would eliminate from my house? >> and i'm a very lucky man, i've got a 7-second delay, but these presidential candidates. >> the other thing too, you go back to george w. bush, what did he do when he was getting ready to run? you drive four main points, right? and the lack of discipline. and his team has acknowledged that in recent days saying we've got to get to a point where we're right in the middle of the

fairway, talking about the flat tax, the economy, not going to go after herman cain. but this was -- he brought it up, after all. >> he did bring it up. and mika, after the debate, the guy handled it the best way he could. >> well, with humor. let's listen to his words. >> i'm glad i had my boots on tonight because i stepped in it. >> how did you feel? >> well, i'll tell you what, i named two more agencies of government than what the current administration has talked about getting rid of and energy just wouldn't come out. the bottom line is, i may have forgotten energy, but i hadn't forgotten my conservative principles, and that's what this campaign is going to be about. >> that would have been nice to stay on stage. mark haleprin, what was the reaction like inside the hall there where even some of his own supporters gasped? >> people in the room gasped, people in the press file where i was gasped. it's true to say we all do this. but this is the animating thing of his candidacy, of going to

washington and being -- making fundamental change. energy is a huge issue for him. i'm not quite as forgiving of not being able to remember. it seems like it's a gimmick. he's got these agencies that his advisers told him. it should be central -- it's central to why he's running, makes the inability to remember to me a little bit more questionable. >> i think david gregory, what it was, was painfully revealing. it was painfully revealing which we've seen before with him. >> which i was going to say, by the way, you know you're in trouble when people feel sorry for you. in politics, you want them to do anything but feel sorry for you. and who among us -- i mean i felt sorry for him last night. i don't think anything else needs to be said. >> it'll sound -- >> it'll sound funny, but i don't mean it to be that. last week there was actually a photograph written in a story that rick perry had denied he'd been drunk while giving a speech in new hampshire. and now you have this. he's late into the race and now you have two weeks that are

going to be dominated by his missteps. we're far away from getting to what's the core of your campaign, where are you going to do damage to a front-runner like romney or even cain? >> feel free to talk about rick perry, but i also want to talk about the other story last night, which is herman cain, not only the fact that the crowd's rallying around him. it appears there's now a carvillian type of assault on these woman accusers coming from the right instead of the left. >> you would expect his numbers to drop, he is this morning the clear leader, leading the republican field. he's at 25, mitt romney's at 23. he is at least at the moment continuing to survive this. i do want to make one point on perry. a boring point about it. i always wonder what they mean when they say i'm going to eliminate these agencies. when you eliminate commerce. commerce does the national

census. we have to do that under the constitution. so you putting that somewhere new, the energy department does a lot of checking up on our nukes, making sure they're safe. is that going to the pentagon? or is that folding? >> that's a wonderful question. but you can't ask that question if they can't remember what agencies they're going to eliminate. >> republicans have been talking about eliminating these agencies since back -- back in your day. >> i had four that i picked. education, commerce -- >> oh no. >> energy -- >> for those before. hey, joe, come on. >> now, i will tell you later, ezra, if you want to be bored on what you do. but go ahead. >> it's a fair question. but the truth is, we all know, no matter what, if a republican wins -- if rick perry wins the white house, none of the agencies are going anywhere. none of them will be eliminated.

never going to happen. >> so it seems to me, mika, that last night's -- at the end of the day, we're going to remember this rick perry gaffe. but last night was the first night i was watching and i said, you know what? the cement is starting to set. >> for mitt romney. >> and it looks like mitt romney is starting not to be inevitable, we're still in preseason, we really are, but he's starting to look like he is dominating. >> i think it's worth talking about mitt romney and let's get the bite ready, the sound bite where he takes on flip-flopping as being his number one weakness. and then after that, we'll talk about newt gingrich and jon huntsman and whether they have any potential in this. >> let's go to the bite. >> first here's mitt romney on flip-flopping. >> jon, i think people know me pretty well in the state of massachusetts, new hampshire, utah where i served in the olympics. i think people understand i'm a man of steadiness and constantsy. i don't think you're going to

find anybody with thomore of th attributes than i do. i've been married for the same woman for 42 years, i've been in the same church my entire life, i've worked at one company, bain, for 25 years, and i left that to go off and help save the olympic games. i think it's outrageous that the obama campaign continues to push this idea when you have in the obama administration the most political presidency we've seen in modern history. they're actually deciding when to pull out of afghanistan based on politics. >> so mitt romney, looking so dominant. >> you know, i remember talking to a senior republican in the party who said you cannot underestimate the importance of having run for the presidency before. and mitt romney is a candidate who looks like he's done this before, and he's learned from it. these debates in this cycle which have had such a big impact have been very, very strong for mitt romney. the constancy he talks about is

going to be tested severely in this republican primary and certainly wait until the general election when the white house, if he's the nominee tries to tear him apart on what conservatives have real problems about with him now, which is who are you really? what do you really stand for? and it's a problem. >> and this past week, erick erickson, i would suggest the most influential conservative blogger guns out and focuses them straight on mitt romney saying if mitt romney wins, it'll be a disaster for the conservative movement, for the republican party, for all of us. >> and one part of being in preseason here, one thing you're not seeing along those lines, ads. that's where flip-flopping becomes a problem. because what you don't want to see is that visual of you saying i would never take away a woman's right to choose and then right after this, i'm completely pro-life in every way. >> there's some devastating sound bites also. >> exactly. but it doesn't come through that way in a debate. debates can't make you look like a flip-flopper and they're not

out in the field yet. >> i think the silence about cain is telling. romney made a point to say the allegations were disturbing but didn't go there last night. you saw the reaction of the crowd and i think maria bartiromo stayed steady, went ahead and asked the question that had to be asked in the debate. a rival campaign told me, here's the deal on cain, we're going to step back and wait and hope that his supporters reluctantly come to the conclusion that he can't win and then we hope to be able to inherit that support. that's the game plan right now. nobody wants to take on cain, they want to let this sort of settle in and do the damage. >> mark haleprin, what was the reaction to cain at the debate last night? when you talked to cain supporters after? >> you know, cain supporters are still with him. they were very much with him in the hall. and if you didn't know about the controversy. if you'd been blocked from that and you took that one question on and you looked at the rest of his answers, his performance was pretty much on par.

sometimes a little bit more subdued. pretty much on par with the way he's been talking about 9-9-9, talking about shaking up washington. somewhat vacuous answers at times on issues, like he didn't give a straight answer on the debt crisis. >> what about italy, mark? just to be really blunt, he wasn't even really aware of the depth of the italy crisis. he tried to avoid the answer two times? >> and it shows the lack of it being -- it's not a real campaign. of course you come into this debate having an answer about the european debt crisis. and he didn't. he just gave his answer and said, well, the american economy needs to be strong. but i will say again, if one of these accusers is discredited and if the right decides they want to make this their cause to say they're not going to let the liberal media pick who the nominee is. cain could hold on to the support he has. >> i think he'll grow his support, lose some religious conservatives, lose some women,

but he may not deflate just because of this if he gets some love. >> john heilemann, how do you say 9-9-9 in italian? >> maybe that's the answer. >> yeah, that's the answer. i think what david said before, what happened last night was the romney's campaign calculations have just changed because their concern has been that rick perry was still the only candidate who could beat them. and so as they started to think about iowa, one of the things they're thinking is how do we kill rick perry in iowa? they're not worried about herman cain and they have not been. and if perry has completely imploded, the romney campaign may now have to focus more on cain. it's almost like that waste of time to destroy rick perry because he's kind of destroyed himself. they may if the strategy of discrediting these women works and cain stays aloft, they may have to shift their focus toward taking out herman cain, newt gingrich in iowa. the other big story we're following is the countdown now to the debt deal, which will or

may not happen. joining us now from capitol hill, republican senator from pennsylvania and member of the debt super committee, pat toomey. he, of course, penned the offer denied by democrats on tuesday. i want to talk about that. >> we will talk about that in a minute. buff first, we have to talk about your home state. we read the shocking allegations coming out of state college. joe paterno, a guy that i think most of us around this table have loved and respected for years. >> yeah. >> kicked out yesterday. and if you read the grand jury report, it is absolutely shocking from top to bottom how the youngest, most helpless victims were abandoned by 28-year-old men, by paterno, by athletic directors, by presidents of the university. this is really shocking. what's your response? >> i can't tell you how saddening it is.

this is devastating for pennsylvania. it's devastating for our country. joe paterno, of course, is an icon, he's an american legend. he did more to make penn state what it is today than probably any other person. so for this to -- for us to start to hear these allegations, to see this, this scandal -- it's just devastating to pennsylvania. it's just terrible. >> it's heartbreaking to a lot of fans. >> it is. >> but my gosh, you look at what happened, and this is -- it was systemic abuse. do you agree with the board that decided to fire not only joe paterno but the president of the university? >> honestly, i have not read the grand jury report, and they might very well have information i don't have. i don't want to second guess that decision. obviously this is incredibly distu disturbing. it's horrifying, frankly, a monster was prowling and

victimizing as you say the most defenseless kids. it's horrible. >> pat, have your staff print you out the grand jury report. you'll want to read it. it is absolutely tagering what was staggering what was allowed to go on there. the super committee, i'm hopeful. >> 13 days. >> it can happen, can't it? good things are coming. >> okay. listen. >> come on, now. >> we've got 13 days left. that's not a lot of time, but it is still enough time. we -- gosh, i really hope we'll stay at this and we'll get this done, it's just so important that we have this modest success and moving in the direction of getting our fiscal house in order. this super committee was never going to solve all of the problems. that's okay. we need to take the step, reach the goal that was set out in the legislation and at least begin the process. i'm still hopeful we can do it. i'm willing to work every single day, and i hope we'll reach the

goal. >> david gregory? >> senator, two quick questions here. are you saying that the republican position unequivocally is that you will support tax increases on the order of $250 billion as part of this deal? and if you do that -- and you say it's actual increased revenue, isn't it possible? and don't you fear that the house will not approve this? >> here's what we're proposing, and what we're saying is there is a way to get additional revenue. what we're saying is let's adopt the regulations from every bipartisan commission that's looked at this. and what they have said is any revenue needs to come from pro-growth tax reform. we've said let's lower rates and recommend the top rate comes down to 28 and other rates come down commensurately. that's where they've come out on this. and let's offset that lost revenue by reducing the size or the value of deductions that people could take. and for the very upper income

brackets, we could reduce that by a little bit more than it would take to get to revenue neutral. and in the process, generate revenue for deficit reduction. that's not actually my first preference, but it's an indication of how much we want to find an agreement here, how much we want to begin this process of getting our debt under control. >> so you're -- you're saying unequivocally tax increases have to be part of this, but are you worried as a result the house may not pass what you've agreed to? >> the other thing to keep in mind is this would be extremely pro-growth and allow us to avoid the biggest tax increase in history coming at us january 2013. instead of having that devastating tax increase coming into the economy, i'd rather have a tax reform that would be pro-growth, create jobs, help to reduce the deficit, but most of the virtue of that would be the strong economic growth in job creation that would come from it. and this isn't just, you know, some republican idea, this is every bipartisan commission that

is looked at. >> ezra klein? >> i'm going to ask this from the other side, when you talk about the tax increase coming, it's what would happen if congress does absolutely nothing. so when you compare it to that, the increase of $350 billion, which then is followed by extending those, it reads to me from current law -- and this is how the congressional budget office will score it as essentially a $3.3 trillion tax cut. and it just seems like an awfully large tax cut given the circumstances. when you talk about the fiscal commission, they had a $2 trillion. they shaved $2 trillion out of the tax cuts. why aren't numbers like that more on the table? if you guys were at $2 trillion, you'd be far beyond what this super committee needs to meet its goals. >> if we were talking about a $2 trillion tax increase, we'd be talking about absolutely devastating the economy. it's a terrible idea to have this huge tax increase happen, raising taxes on capital gains and dividends all would be devastating and discouraging to investment.

frankly, i have long believed -- and i still do that the looming threat of this tax increase is part of what's holding our economy back now. i agrdisagree that's the way we ought to go. they've suggested that we lower rates and find revenue by offsetting the deductions and write-offs and loopholes. and we want to do this on a corporate side, as well. even the president has come out and said we ought to use corporate tax reform as a way to generate growth. >> what's the likelihood of success? senator schumer was on the show several days ago, very skeptical. how are you feeling this morning? >> you know, i'm going to remain hopeful, joe, this is so important that we accomplish this. you know, the american people, the markets, the world need to see that we actually can govern at some level, we can make some progress before we find ourselves in the circumstances that europe's in. it's not too late, but the clock is getting late.

i just hope we'll stay at it and make this accomplishment. >> senator pat toomey, thank you so much. quick disaster scenario i've talked to other republicans about, they get an agreement, the house doesn't pass it because of the tax increases, and then they don't sequester the money, which means the automatic defense cuts don't go in effect. so you have a rolling set of disasters as a result of this. that's the more pessimistic view of where we may be headed. coming up next, debbie wasserman schultz, also we'll bring in chuck todd live from rochester, michigan. keep it right here on "morning joe." we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up

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historically, this is the richest country in the history of the world because corporations succeed in creating both profits and jobs, and it's sad that the news media doesn't report accurately how the economy works. >> what is the media reporting

inaccurately about the economy? >> what? >> what is the media reporting inaccurately about the economy? >> humor disguised as a question, that's terrific. i have yet to hear a single reporter ask a single occupy wall street person a single rational question about the economy that would lead them to say, for example, who's going to pay for the park you're occupying if there are no businesses making a profit? >> wow. wow. joining us -- >> i'm speechless. >> stop it. i don't want to talk about it. >> and that never happens. >> occupy wall street is the economic question he wanted? is that what he's been expecting from the media for months? he's worried about a park in lower manhattan to revive our economy? >> by the way, i don't think goldman sachs has anything to do with the parks down there. last time i checked. >> this is a great act, though. >> yeah. >> trashing the media has been great. he's -- >> it works.

>> as paul simon would say, he's a one-trick pony, but that one trick is getting him up there in the polls. >> democratic congresswoman from florida and chair of the democratic national committee, representative debbie wasserman schultz. >> and just so we had somebody to attack, we brought -- >> news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. >> chuck, i'm talking about newt here, but that little act of his -- and you can tell, it is all an act at this point. he's just going to keep attacking the media. and it is actually bolstering him in the polls. >> and it's all his whole campaign and his little twitter feed and all that stuff. any time they retweet anything that says go newt, way to attack the media. so it's a clear strategy he does with almost every question. but you're right, i didn't understand when he said, well, the media doesn't report the

economy -- what does that have to do with the occupy wall street? i thought it was going to be a serious discussion. you know, he had an opportunity. and he said, well, we need to have a serious discussion about health care. and i thought she said very eloquently, take as much time as you want. and he didn't know what to do. and he thought, i thought it wasn't one of newt's better moments, actually when maria said, okay. she didn't let herself get bullied the way he's bullied other moderators. >> so let me ask you about the moment last night. the moment last night that will live forever in infamy. mark haleprin talked to some top perry donors who said it's time for the governor to come home. >> well, it is stunning the way that way the debates have served as iowa, if you will. let's look at a little bit of a time period between -- in 2007,

everybody got in the race was campaigning for three or four months before the first debate. rick perry i think just celebrated his three-month anniversary or is about to celebrate his three-month anniversary on the campaign trail in about two days. he's had to do six. it's clearly served as a mechanism. and he was the candidate that could least afford an error and it was an unforced error. it was hard to see how he was going to recover before last night, let alone last night. >> you've run for office, i've run for office. anybody that runs knows. i started running in september the year before. >> yeah. >> because i knew i was going to screw up. and i knew that when i screwed up, i wanted to make sure nobody was watching. i'm dead serious. so i had a year in a little congressional race to get my act together. it's just next to impossible. we've seen how much mitt romney's improved.

it's next to impossible to do what rick perry has done. parachute at the last second and do debates. >> but it's actually worse than that because we thought there was only one candidate in the race without strong convictions. mitt romney, who seems to be all over the place depending on popular opinion at the moment, now we see -- rick perry you could have sympathy for him if you said everybody blanks. but to not know your own agenda. there does need to be some conviction. blanking on something as significant as the three agencies that you'd eliminate. it just shows how shockingly deficient the entire field of candidates for president is. >> mark haleprin made the same point. which is if this is what you believe, you don't have to sit there and look like you're forgetting the third prong -- >> i need to look down at my notes. >> and there's nobody more disappointed in perry than the congresswoman here and the people inside the white house. they thought he was going to show up and do the job they

hoped he would do and target effectively mitt romney and begin to take him down. look at this, you knew there'd be an anti-romney candidate your presumed front-runner. and now you have as your main rival in herman cain someone who is showing some resilience but is still now more increasingly being defined on character questions. >> so chuck todd, does newt gingrich now move up to be the anti-romney? >> i don't buy it. i know this is the romney spin, which is fascinating to me that the romney campaign is promoting gingrich as their chief rival. they did it last night again in the spin room. they've been doing it to us behind the scenes for a while. i think we're going to end up facing off with newt. and it's like -- you know what? yeah, because you know that once newt has this self-destruct button, right? there's the good newt that will show up at a college lecture or

even start waxing eloquent about what he wants to talk about on a debate and then bad newt shows up where he gets defensive. >> rocky. >> there goes rocky. >> exactly. >> newt is not huntsman. >> let me ask you this question. the last time i ran for office. >> joe has some tips. >> was 2000. and i want to make sure that the scene hasn't changed so much that i -- that my advice -- >> see if you're rusty. >> maybe i'm rusty, and maybe this is what congressmen and congresswomen need to do in town hall meetings. take a look and you tell me. >> i agree with you about that! that's not the problem! don't blame banks, and don't blame the marketplace for the mess we're in right now! i am tired of hearing that crap! i am tired of hearing that crap. you know what you got?

you got to stop -- >> you've got banks -- >> dodd/frank's tieing everybody's hands. you wanted more reform and regulation, that's what you got. do you want more regulation? is that what you want? do you want dodd/frank? is that what you want? >> what did i say back at joe's -- >> i need more coffee. quiet for a minute. quiet for a minute! or i'm going to ask you to leave. you need to listen. or i'm going to ask you to leave. >> he's going to kick a constituent out of a bar. out of a bar! okay. so anyway, is that the new rage, is that what the kids are doing on the campaign trail now? >> well, that's the tea party unhinged. this is -- in 19 years in office -- >> let me just say, you cannot put that one around the tea party. >> well, no, no, no -- it's an example of a candidate, a member of congress with no experience who clearly doesn't know how to engage in give and take with

people who disagree with them. i mean, i've been in office for 19 years, plenty of people show up to my town halls and don't agree with me, i don't rip their heads off. >> that's not how it's done now? >> it's less of a tirade and more of a ring tone. >> okay. >> that would be a great ring tone. >> i'm going to make that my ring tone. >> seriously, it shows a lack of respect for the people -- >> you think? >> yeah. >> okay. >> we were just making sure, debbie. >> so chuck todd, maybe we don't do that. chuck, you're a big college football fan. i'm sure like the rest of us you've grown up loving and respecting joe paterno, but my god, you look this morning at the grand jury report that willie was showing us. you have a 28-year-old coach walking in on a 10-year-old boy being raped, turns around, doesn't stop it. you've got paterno that does

nothing in 2002 and athletic director that does nothing but take away his keys. he's allowed to continue to stand on the sideline with little boys for years. for years. can you believe this? >> it's unbelievable. it's the last football program that existed where the coach was bigger than the school. i would argue that not since bryant where the coach was bigger than the school. and in an unhealthy way where a criminal, a predator was allowed to walk the streets because of the nature of what happened here where the -- where the football program was so much bigger than the rest of the institution, the rest of the city, and i do think it's another -- it's going to be another instance where a lot of people are looking on the mirror

in the world of college sports and saying, wait a minute, is this balance out of whack where you see the athletic program, the football programs around the country. you know what happened. the school that i love at miami where things get overlooked. stuff gets swept under the rug, look the other way because you don't want to mess up the cash cow. >> right. no doubt about it. we've got to go, but really quickly, ezra, what are you working on right now? >> europe is going down. italy's become too big to save and too big to fail. and it can bring us down too. >> we'll do that next block. >> what about you? >> well, we're going to have the dnc chairman on the program on sunday, also michele bauchmann to talk about the new alignment of the republican race. >> interesting. >> got a good program. >> fantastic. and debbie, write that check to joe walsh. >> okay. >> will you do that? >> we'll will ready for him.

i want him to keep going out there. >> keep doing what you're doing. >> do more democratic candidates a favor. >> chuck todd, we'll see you at 9:00. an exclusive new issue of "time" magazine. we'll be back with more "morning joe." chri or llesndthr en

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we need to have him on. welcome back. 38 past the hour. we're going to read ezra klein, a part of your piece in the "washington post." is this how the euro ends, you ask? here's how it was supposed to go. greece first, then perhaps portugal and ireland. if things got really bad, spain, it was not supposed to go greece then italy. no one was prepared for that. the problem put simply, italy is both too big to fail and too big to save. it is the eighth largest economy in the world. at $2 trillion, it's about seven times as large as greece's $300 billion economy. and so the question is simple, and stark. if there wasn't the will to really save greece, where would the will and money come from to save italy?

the answer that's so troubling, the markets right now is it perhaps won't come at all. yikes. that's disturbing. >> yeah. >> and then what happens? >> the only chance we have at this point, either the european central bank comes in and says we will lend whatever you need. we will give you as much money as you need around the order of a lot of people think $500 billion euro and we will stop this now. but a week ago, they said they weren't going to do that. so if they don't do that, this is essentially becoming impossible day by day. germany can't hand -- they're not going to hand over 5% of their nation's economy in an unending way to all of the other countries, it's not going to happen. and the problem with going to italy, if greece decides the game is up, italy's going down because nobody's going to be able to save italy or greece, greece is going to walk, they're going to default because it's better to manage a decline on your own than have it handed to you. i'm hearing a lot of 50/50s, and this is the first time i've been

hearing on the odds of a europe breakup. >> how does it affect the world markets? >> it's a financial crisis. one thing about italy, french and german banks have about $600 billion in exposure. it's one pathway. exports obviously a problem, people get scared, confidence is another issue there. and remember, there's no mechanism for breaking up the euro zone. they've never built this in. there's no way to do it. how do you change over the atms in greece? it's an uncertainty in an unbelievably massive scale. and we're doing nothing about it. >> greece falls, italy falls, the road does leads to paris next. and then us. >> great questions. thank you very much, ezra klein. >> thank you, ezra. >> up next, a new issue of "time" magazine. keep it here on "morning joe." i hear he's a very, very good one.

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." what did you say about billy mitchell? >> san francisco, as well. >> now, you're a well-dressed man, rick. have you been to westport's? >> they sell clothes there? >> they're amazing. >> connecticut's like a big place for fashion. >> you head to connecticut. >> exactly. >> look at you, mr. hipster. >> heilemann is fashion forward. >> whatever. >> the latest, skinny jeans. we've got a great issue -- >> this is going to be good. i'm already looking at it, i can't help myself. >> i can't wait to get mike's

response to this. >> speaking of well-dressed and in time for veterans day and with 40,000 young men and women coming back from iraq, we have a cover about the military today, it's called an army apart. >> wow. >> and the story inside is called the other 1% because they represent 1% of the population over 18, and it's about how the military and society have grown increasingly distant since 9/11, and how you have basically the largest cohort of the military coming from ten different states in america from the south, southwest, and the mountain west and how we've grown apart in a country where we're supposed to have citizen soldiers, where the framers of the constitution said we must provide for the common defense. more and more, it's uncommon for people to serve. and it's a sad thing. and it's not necessarily a good thing. i mean i write in my editor's letter. my dad was a world war ii vet. i didn't know another father

growing up who hadn't been in the military during world war ii. and now, you know, young people growing up. you have to knock on the doors of 100 houses to find somebody with a military american in their family. >> i was talking the other night to the president of the university of alabama. he said the challenges become so great for returning vets that they have set up their own department in the school for veterans because these people walk around campus with challenges. what they have seen over the past decade, and they're supposed to quietly assimilate? one of the biggest problems is it's not like world war ii when a vet came home. it's not even like vietnam that you knew when a guy was coming back from war in vietnam, now they're like ghosts going over, ghosts coming back. >> that's what we report a lot of soldiers in the piece saying that. and the fact the sad thing is these young men and women are

more equipped for functioning in society more than any other vets before. they're technologically minded, better educated, more fit, and they need to be integrated into society. in fact, we did that cover over the summer by joe klein about the newest generation and how extraordinary these people are. but they are more and more separate. and there's lots of statistics to that end. >> mike barnicle, you've talked about this. you have talked about this for years. these young men and women that give their all for america are almost like mercenaries now. go fight our wars, we'll just say, yeah, let's keep fighting in afghanistan for another decade, nobody -- nobody has any idea of their sacrifices and the sacrifices of their families, 10, 11, 12 deployments. it is just a national tragedy. >> well, unlike any other wars throughout history and rick just alluded to this.

there's no frame of reference for the ret ran of iraq and afghanistan reemerging into society. a few years ago, a group of us helped get a young man, young marine corps veteran into holy cross college, terrific school. they were glad to accept him even though his s.a.t.s when he took them prior to going into the marine corps were pretty low. they took him. and he was very successful academically for a while. but he had no frame of reference to everyone around him. because we are living in a country where you pointed out, we can go days, months, some of us even years without ever encountering the family of someone who is serving in iraq and afghanistan. we've been at war for ten years. and it's very difficult to find anyone other than the families, less than 1% of the families who suffer along with the people who serve us in these wars. and it's very difficult to find -- >> mike, that's why some people

advocate for some kind of draft, or some kind of national service, whether civilian or military service. because it does help knit up the country. >> and it's one of those things that we have -- there's so country. >> there's so many ways in which the class divisions are greater than they have been. this is one way in which to have class distinctions in terms of income, having some kind of social bonding where people are thrown into the service thing would at least create a social cohesion, which we have lost. >> vermont is divided by an interstate highway. are the left are the ski areas, people from new york, connecticut, massachusetts go up and go skiing, at places like stowe and other places. on the right-hand are the hole lows of these small towns where in order to get extra income, many young men and women in vermont join the national guard, and ended up going to either iraq or afghanistan, and thus for a long time vermont had the

highest per capita casualty rate of any state in the union. >> what we found, too, is now the young men and women who join the military, they come from railroad areas, from the south, the midwest. the lion's share come back to ten states. even there there's a separation in different parts of the country. in the northeast, with the exception of vermont, doesn't have many in the military anymore. >> a lot of people will only say only the poor, only the disadvantaged are going off to escape a bad economy. that is not the case. there are a lot of middle-class, upper middle-class kids in the military. >> they're better educated, they're more fit and wealthier that this their age cohort because of the military raises they have gotten since 9/11. in fact, they are a more elite cohort. in fact when you look at between 17 and 24, 85% of those young men and women are not eligible, a lot of them because they're obese. >> so what are the skills we're

not tapping into that are right there that these veterans bring home to our country. >> one of them is leadership skills. there are men who super commanded platoons in iraq and afghanistan. i mean, that -- any of our jobs doesn't even begin to compare to the responsibility that something like that takes. i think corporate leadership. >> not just running divisions. you have 25, 26, 27-year-old men and women that have run cities in iraq, in afghanistan while bombs are coming in, where if they screw up, it's a matter of life and death. i've heard ceos talk about this before, where they said, you've got a kid who's 24, 25, 26 in the middle of a civil war running a city in being responsible for sewer, the security, everything else? >> now think about that joe walsh video -- >> he's not going to be so concerned -- >> okay? seriously. >> he's not concerned if there's a problem in the boardroom.

>> or his quarterly numbers are a little bit down, as dan said, as they figured this out with the start upnation. >> this is a high-tech military, these kids come back with extraordinary technical skills. none of them are doing pure grunt work. they're all dealing with computers -- >> this is a great issue, rick. >> the new issue of "time," "an army apart." >> and i learned about them from you guys. >> we're going to be having them on the show. more "morning joe" in a moment. thank you, rick. the postal service is critical to our economy--

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i'm glad i had my boots on tonight, because i sure stepped in it out there. >> governor, you did step in it. how did you feel? >> i named two more agencies of government than what the current administration is talking about getting rid of, and energy just wouldn't come out. the bottom line is i may have forgotten energy, but i haven't forgotten my conservative principles. that's what this campaign is going to be about. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe. quags back with us we have mike barnicle and john heilman, and back in michigan mark halperin. >> last night's debate will be remembered as -- >> they're calling it an epic gaffe.

>> for one reason. is this the end of rick perry's campaign? >> well, governor perry was having a decent debate, not a great one. he was a bit left out of the mix, as in previous contests. when it got to him trying to drill his big message, he has a litany he does on the trail about three departments he would eliminate. for whatever reason, he could not remember -- >> for whatever reason, it was also how he handled it. we'll play this clip, mark, and on the page this morning you have quotes from across the country, including some from his top campaign supporters, saying he should just go back to texas. let's roll the clip. >> to compete -- >> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone -- commerce, education and the -- what's the third one there? let's see. oh, five? okay. so commerce, education, and the -- um -- >> epa? >> epa.

there you go. >> seriously? is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir. no, sir. we were talking about the agencies -- epa needs to be rebuilt. >> but you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government, i would do away with education, the -- commerce, and let's see -- i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> john, it's tough. >> well, look, you know, everybody has these moments in life. >> everybody. >> oh, my gosh. >> everybody. everybody. >> not on this big of stage. >> everybody's had that in life. i want to say for the record, we've had a lot of really brilliant people come on this set, they're shocked that there are no teleprompters, i need to make this point.

a lot of people today will be writing nasty things about how rick perry stupid, and they come on here shaking, because there's no safety net, and i've seen a lot of people on this set screw up, i've screwed up. >> yeah. >> it can happen to all of us. so now let's explain, though, why this is more devastating to rick perfectly, say, that if newt gingrich had done it. >> there are two problems. the first is this builds on the established narrative. he's made these mistakes in debates. the scrutiny on his debate performance is higher. he's got to do better than average. instead he did this thing that confirmed everybody's worth caricature of him. in this age of youtube, this clip will live forget, the way the katy couric mockery by tina fey of sarah palin will be replayed. this defines him, it reinforces the stair i don't type, and it is timeless.

it never goes away. >> mike? >> you're absolutely right. everyone has these moments. i have multiple moments like this every day. >> before breakfast. >> absolutely. >> i think it ends his candidacy as a serious candidate for president. the other thing that it did --. let me stop there and we'll get back -- does everybody agree with that? it probably does, but on a moment, i don't think it should. >> mark, do you think this ends it? >> i don't think 100%, because there's no romney alternative. perry is probably the only one in this race that would have a good chance of beating him. he still has money in the bank. i'm not saying a good chance, but i don't make it zero. >> mark, that leads to the second element i was about to mention. one, does it dry up his money? we'll find that out shortly, but two, it overshadows what i thought was just mitt romney crushed that ball last night.

he hit it out of the park last night. he was so strong from the beginning of the debate to the end, and now this, you know, rick perry being very human with this gaffe, overshadowing romney's really spectacular performance. >> let's go to mitt romney. the first thing he defended himself on was one of the key things they talk about with him, which is flip flopping. here's what he did. >> john, i think people know me pretty well, particularly in this state, in the state massachusetts, new hampshire close by. i think people understand i'm a man of steadyness and constancy, i don't think you'll have find -- i've been married to the same woman for 25 -- excuse me, i'll get in trouble -- for 42 years. i've been in the same church my entire life. i worked at one company for 25 years, and i left that to go off and help save the olympic games.

i think it's outrageous the obama campaign continues to push this idea when you have in the obama administration the most political presidency we have seen in modern history. they're actually deciding when to pull out of afghanistan based on politics. >> mark halperin, do you agree that mitt romney crushed the ball last night, as mike barnicle said? >> i do, joe, and the clip you just showed, if you're talking about determining the next president of the united states, that far and away is the most significant thing. it won't get as much attention as rick perry, but romney's attempts to rebrand himself as a man of constancy, consistency and principle, i think --. he's mentioned marriage, his long marriage, his time at bean capital an his faith in different contexts, but if he's successful in rebranding himself, it will give he a much better chance of winning a

general election. >> so quickly go through your report card, and we've got a lot of news this morning and i want to pass it around and see what people think. >> romney got an a. i almost gave him an a-plus. he didn't have too many weak moments. a strong performance, once again looked like a great -- had a lucky night. gingrich, b minus. he still goes after the press a lot. i think he's risking looking too cranky. >> you know, you wonder how long that act will work. you gave huntsman a b minus. what did he do right? >> he is still putting himself out there with a personal and demeanor i think will play well in new hampshire. i'm not -- i think huntsman and gingrich are the two leaders for that. he presented himself as somebody with a decent chance of winning a general election. if you're looking for a romney

alternative, that may be the place. >> and herman cain, you talk about.wagon circling around herman cain, you saw the audience last night, you saw it on talk radio yesterday, the right-wing blogosphere, you saw it on fox news yesterday, you're seeing it everywhere, it is right is taking herman cain's problems as a personal affront, and we saw it there last night. >> some people on the right are still defending him, but the lines he gave last night which in the past fueled a rise i think are almost a sideshow. he has to get some luck or i think last night may be the last time he's treated as a front-runner. polls are still holding. >> they're holding, but mika, if you look at the front page of "new york times," he's hired a lawyers who's threatened future

accusers. rush limbaugh is trashing him, drudge is citing locations and how close they live to david axelrod, "wall street journal" this morning is going after these women aggressively. it is a -- it is -- you talk about a scorched earth strategy, the right collectively is going after any woman that speaks out against herman cain. and i've got to say in an unprecedented aggressive way. we saw last night the crowd. i say unprecedented, bill, i'm sorry i. i was there in the 1990s, the left did the same thing for bill clinton. >> they are following the clinton playbook -- >> see, i did a rick perry. i forgot. i was there at that little fire, and you're darned right, they trashed absolutely everybody. >> what was interesting i think was the crowd response last night, because he was confronted about this. take a look.

>> here we're focusing on character and judgment. you've been a ceo. >> yes. >> you know that shareholders are reluctant to hire a ceo where there are character issues. buy should the american people hire a president if they feel there are character issues? >> the american people deserve better than someone being tried in a court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations. that's what -- [ cheers and applause ] >> and i value my character and my integrity more than anything else, and for every one person that comes forward with a false accusation, there are probably -- there are thousands who would say none of that sort of activity ever came from herman cain. >> you know, i have nothing to say about this, because it just seems to me it's an ugly situation that will ultimately

go away when it comes to the presidential race. am i wrong? >> i don't think you're wrong. i don't think herman cain will have staying power. >> seriously -- no, no, quiet -- okay. thanks. as far as some of the other candidates are concerned, i think jon huntsman was interesting. he tried to show he had empathy for the people who are hurting in this country, and in some cases, he has actually done it. he's actually done it and executed it. i look at the scorecard, i don't disagree, but i wish he was a bit higher on it. >> huntsman -- >> you're still not allowed to talk, heileman. go ahead. >> he was asked to talk about the occupy wall street -- but he had an interesting take on it, not a purely political take on it. talking to people in that movement would have.

pretty interesting. he twice said that he thought too big to fail was wrong, and we need to do something about that. i haven't heard a republican get in that place. that -- he brought it up twice yesterday. i start to see they're going to make their way around toward that sleight populism, which has not been part of this profile before. >> there are a lot of republicans, a lot of republicans, most of the republicans that elected me in northwest florida, a lot of ron paul supporters. i would guess a lot of herman cain supporter that agree with that, that are just as anti-too big to fail as they are too -- >> i wasn't meaning to suggest that the republicans didn't say that. >> no, no, the candidates -- >> the candidates have not keyed on that. >> i'm saying the candidates have a blind spot for their

electorate. >> you talk about the extremes fading away. if you look at mark halperin's report card, mitt romney gets an "a" you could put huntsman somewhere in the middle, but rick perry doing what he did last night, cain, bachmann -- who is it? when you look at those two columns? >> it's the top three. it really is. perry's finished. huntsman is sitting at 1% in south carolina. he's sitting at 1% nationally, he's at 5, 6, 7, 8% in new hampshire. he has to catch fire in new hampshire and south carolina, but you've got to say those are the only three that can go the distance. maybe huntsman stays at 1%, but i think gingrich is moving in, as we said a couple weeks ago, he's moving into that second spot. those top three people are the

only people that can win the nomination. mark it down. i know it's going to tick a lot of people off. i'm sorry, that's the reality, and i hate to tell you the truth when it upsets you had so much. i don't want to screw up your morning. i just know i'm always right. go ahead -- i'm talking to right-wing bloggers there. i know it drives you crazy. i was right about bachmann. i was right about perry, i'm right all the time. i know my rep party better than you know your rep party -- >> this i do not dispute. >> you're always calling me a rhino. i'm always right. >> the people who will start tweeting from the basement. >> with their chee-tos. >> you have six weeks to do this. come on. >> the romney campaign right now i think, joe, your analysis seems right to me. they have newt gingrich to worry about in iowa, and i think jon

huntsman to worry about in new hampshire. if they can fend off those two challeng challenges. romney was already leaning in iowa. if they could steal that victory in iowa, shut it dun in new hampshire, he's the nominee. >> you know, that's the scenario. you're exactly right, but, mark halperin -- and you've got to say right now, put big money on mitt romney winning this thing, but say newt gingrich wins iowa. let's say we go to new hampshire, and you have mitt romney maybe not winning by as much as he should win by. let's say jon huntsman keeping it close. or he stumbled into south carolina, there's a real problem. they've got to win one of those two states. >> i think he probably does have to win one of those two, the thing about newt gingrich, i think he's the most likely to get one on one with mitt romney, but you have the people who can,

he's the least likely to actually beat him. i don't think there's a stingle state, including iowa today, that he can actually win. >> why do you say that? >> joe, remember, if you look at everybody in this race, including herman cain, rick perry, jon huntsman, everybody has had some opposition research on them. no one has laid a glove on gingrich. there's so much you can do on newt gingrich. up next, with james murdoch back in front of ha parliamentary committee, has the door suddenly opened for his older sister to take over the media empire? gabe sherman is here to discuss hi wide-ranging article. but first, a very simple, simple man, bill karins. >> you kind of made that sound bad, mika. this simple man can do one thing to entertain you today, take a look at this video that was on

youtube i found out of alaska. look how beautiful and picturesque, but this is near the bering strait, as rural as you possibly get. the huge waves on the shore, you can see the ice in the background. the big cargo containers getting tossed around, and then down to the bottom left, i don't think that excavator was supposed to be in the ocean. this was an example of this amazing storm alaska had to witness yesterday. let's show you what's happening now. that storm is gone in alaska. we have a lot of fog from philadelphia southwards to the chesapeake bay. it will lift after about 10:00 a.m. today. we'll have rain moving into boston. temperatures will be a little cooler today, as that cold front goes through. we'll see rain mostly in eastern new england. yesterday we saw the first snowflakes of the year in chicago and minneapolis. just flurries there today. we're okay on the west coast today. we'll have some rain brushing the coastline of south california tomorrow.

but nothing like the storm we saw in alaska. you're catching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses...

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let me just ask you again, did you mislead this committee in your original testimony? >> no, i did not. >> so was it mr. crone, a respected lawyer and in-house legal adviser for many years, who did what? >> who misled this committee. >> as i wrote and issued a public statement, certainly in the evidence they gave to you in 2011, with respect to my

knowledge, i thought it was inconsistent and not right. and i dispute it. >> so you think misled us. >> it follows, yes. >> do you think mr. malone misled us? >> i think their testimony was misleading and i dispute it. >> that was james murdoch testifying this morning before a parliamentary committee about you phone hacking scandal. joining us is gabe sherman, his people in the latest "new york" magazine is elisabeth of the mural talks, and looking at how -- >> i'm sure they have something to talk about tonight. >> first let's talk about what went on this morning. >> amazing testimony. >> tell us what happens. >> this is james' return to parliament to answer questions about whether he misled the committee this summer when he said he was unaware that folk hacking had been widespread when he settled a case that would

have made it be a cover-up that he had settled. he was called out by the news of the world ade editor, so he had to come back and ask questions. it's a classic what did he know and when did they know it situation. >> most of parliament thought he lied to them. >> basically he had to go before them, and he's sticking to his story. him versus the editor. he was called out colin miler, the editor in chief for saying you're wrong, i'm right. >> outside of murdoch's lawyers and families, does anyone really believe he was completely ignorant of this widespread practice? >> it's hard to imagine. >> in british press or parliament, does he have any vocal supporters? >> he's really isolated. it's amazing. >> isolated in his own family, too? >> yeah. this entire -- since the summer, james has been increasingly

isolated both in the british establishment and within his own family. there's a pervasive sense he mishandled the scandal and has really put his father's legacy in jeopardy. his sporters says hi inherited the problem, and as i point out in the piece, james has no interest in newspapers, which was the bedrock of the empire. >> and mike? >> given the appear tide in this country for more corporate governance and additional independent directors of large companies, what does all of this put in play say about the future of, you raise a great question, mike. in the long term, you know, shareholders will say why can this small group of people control this company and run it as their person toy box? this behavior now is being

checked in britain. it's a question about whether this behavior will be checked in america. there's no evidence that phone hacking took place here, but the largest question of should they run news corp. as they see fit is in play. >> wow. >> you write in the piece about elizabeth murdoch, one of the siblings we don't hear much about, who is she? and how is he important? >> we're starting to hear more about her. she is james' older sister. she walked away from the company years ago. she wanted to strike out on her own. she built a tremendously successful tv company. >> she's the one that brought "american idol" to america? >> right. and now rupert brought her back into the fold, always wanted his kids back inside the company. she's seeing her brother mishandling the scandal and is saying, wait a minute, this thing is going down the tubes,

now my legacy is at stake, so she sort of walks away, and now there's a split inside the family. this scandal blew up at a time that all the this succession question was playing out, and now everything is in play. >> you write -- it has always been rupert's dream that all three of his children to his marriage to anna would play a role in the future. rather than looking for a single successor you have three, a family friend says, in james you have someone who understands platform and pay television. in liz you have someone who understand content, and in lakeland you have someone who understands newspapers, but that all for one/one for all vision seems are more distant than ever. >> it's sad. i think that one thing that rupert has done is made all at least of his kids fight for his attention. so even though it was his dream they would all be part of the

country, it was his second wife anna's worry that the competition would rip the family apart. she told rupert that the kids should not be a part of the business, and look what we see happening. >> it's ripped it apart. with liz you have the most ambitious and the least respected by her father. >> yeah. well, you know that gets to the question of gender. rupert is of a different generation. even though he wanted his daughter to be involved in the company, she felt he was giving the sons attention. she gave james his asian division to run, she gave lachlan the new york post, and liz was relegated to running programming. she felt week can't i run b sky b. so she walked away and quit. and came back at the time everything was blowing up. >> this scandal has cost the company how much? >> we financially --

>> they lost the massive deal. >> the stock price has held up, but they lost something that's priceless, which is reputation, and their control over britain. >> rupert murdoch used to run britain. we've talked about it on the show, if you wanted to be prime minister, you want the support of the papers. no one needs murdoch's support now. i have people in london who says no one wants to be associated with news corp. that is the priceless assets that he had built over decades. >> are people still scared of them? >> no, you see it this morning in parliament. they are openly challenging the murdochs. a fascinating change. >> can you explain, gabe, because i think 134 people look hat this as a british story, how this impacts the united states? >> it's a great question. i think murdoch built his most concentrated empire in london, but here he controls "new york

post," fox news, "wall street journal," the fox broadcasting stations. he has a media empire unrivalled here in america as well. basically if london becomes this cancer on the company, it's going to play out on these shores. i think it's important to point out that none of the illegal activity that took place in britain has been shown to take place here in the states. >> if james doesn't run it, who -- >> i think carrie, in the short term. in the short term he's the next ceo. >> so james murdoch goes before parliament earlier this morning basically says everybody else is lying. i know this looks terrible, but i'm sticking to it. the question is how long does he survive with that environment? >> i think, yeah, the bigger question, is what is the legal exposure. there hasn't been charges yes.

rebecca brooks and other senior news of the world employees have been arrested, but not charged. >> does the father stand by james until the bitter end? >> i had a senior officials tells me if it's james or the company, rupert will go with the company. >> i suspected that is the answer. >> that is the answer. >> gabe sherman -- >> it is unbelievable how a lifetime's work has gone up in smoke, possibly if it's not handled right in here forward. >> it's an amazing story. >> so -- >> thank again. >> they have got to cut off the deadweight. >> who's coming to thanksgiving dinner at the murdochs? >> coming up -- are we done? two special guests will be honored tomorrow. aaron mencken, and founder of operation men, and ron katz. keep it right here. companies you're just a policy.

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debra kenney founded the harlem village academies to create a new approach to education reform through a strategies of schools designed for teachers. >> most schools would not be allow to do do what we do. >> she believes in social justice through education. her passion has paid off. her organization has received the new york state education department's high performing designation. this profile in progress is property to you by -- welcome back to "morning joe." tomorrow is veterans day when we honor and thank those who served in our armed forces. joining us is the founder of "operation men." ron katz.

also with us, operation men's first patient retired marine corporal aaron mankin. a man i'm proud to call a friend. last night was a beautiful event. he gets up on stage about 500, 600 people, brought the house down. one minute they're laughing, the next minute they're crying, and next we thought this guy should run for office. you should hear the stump speech of aaron mankin. it was such an honor to present that. >> which was just being in new york city for veterans day and how well we're received, how the great attitude that all members received. the event that iva put on, to be a part of that, and to accept that award on behalf of all the veterans who have served it, and to take time out of -- before it gets too crazy this week, in recognition of all our veterans

to focus on the needs and what needs to be done next. >> you were so inspired when you saw aaron on tv i guess a couple years ago now, five, six years ago, that you were moved to action. tell us about what you saw and what you did afterward. >> well, my late wife and i saw aaron in 12006 on the lou dobbs show. he still had -- even though he was -- now he looks terrific, but he was devastatingly wounded, just horrendous, but inside was something spectacular. lou asked how many surgeries have you had to date? >> he said 30. >> and he said, what's the next? >> he said, they have to fix the beautiful part, at which myowife jabs me and says, do something about this. we went a few months later, they have this center for the intrepid, a wonderful rehab facility.

they were dedicating it, and a lot of the rows in the front were all held. we were kind of curious who would be so many people. it was all the patients. i looked at her, and said, there's a lot of aarons. >> so what did you do? >> i went to the head of the medical establishment at ucla. i'm on the board there. i said what about merging the great talents of the private sector with the public sector. could we make a partnership with the department of defense, with brook army medical center and bring the best that the private sector can offer with the best that the department of defense hospitals can offer? and brook army medical center saved this fellow's life. they are the trauma surgeons. but ucla has some extraordinary expertise in reconstructive surgery in both faces and hands. >> willie, talk about how you and your wife also got inspired

by this remarkable work. >> it's funny, same kind of story. my wife was in a nail salon, of all places, flipping through a magazine. she read a story about aaron mankin and about dr. miller, the chief of of operation mend, and she couldn't sleep. so i finally said, well, call him. stop hitting me and pick up the phone. the next morning she called ucla, and we've been proud for about a year or so working with guys like ron and guys like aaron. judd briefly, your story for people who don't know it. >> it's incredible. you told it to me at the event that willie and his wife had for operation mend. i was transfixed. you talk about the injuries you saw in aaron and how far he has come. how did you become their first? >> my job was a comeback correspondent, a journalist. my job was to tell the marine

corps story. i was covering combat operations near the syrian border in iraq in 2005. the vehicle i was in struck an ied. six men to my right gave their lives for their country. i managed to escape on fire, and sustained second and third-degree burns from my fingertips to my shoulder blades, and everybody feature on of my face. i have my goggles on at the time. my nose was gone. my ears were gone. they got me evacuated back in the state within 48 hours. my recovery started there. now i'm six year deep in my recovery, just short of 60 surgeries all together. the strain that puts on the system, the dedication of the doctors and ucla and brook arm medical center, and the katz family, what they have done for me and how they have changed my life is immeasurable, and not just me, but my kids, my future, my life. >> talk about your family. how they responded to when you

came back and how they're responding now. >> you know, i tell a story about my brother jake who came to see me at the time -- >> i love this story. >> he was 7. being the older brother, i had an image of what i was to him, and needed some affirmation that he felt that way. i turned to him as he visited me. i was bandaged, frail, they had barely no voice left from all the inhalation injuries, and i asked do you think bubba is as big and tough and strong as you used to, and he said, yeah, very little thought. i asked, why is that? he paused for a moment, and you could see him gather his thoughts, and they said, well, think tried to blow you up, and they couldn't. i've carried that with me ever since. i'm still here. even though for me the war is over, the mission continues, and there's a lot to be done. >> no doubt about it. >> i think a lot of people, and i thought this initially when i heard your story, and i hear

your spirit, the one that captivated all those people last night -- how are you so enthusiastic? especially after it first happened? for me and probably a lot of other people it would be probably crawl in a hole somewhere and write it off. i've never heard you down or say a negative word. you're always positive, picking guys up, how do you keep your spirit that what? especially in the early days. >> having my family around me. having the ability to feed off their positive energy, they're trying to lift me up, and i'm trying to lift them up played a huge role. that, and you can always look to the other side. the other side of the rehabilitation center and see a guy much worse off than you are, and there's something behind you that's worse off, and he's looking to you, so we set those examples for each other. >> ron, what an amazing legacy

your wife has left the world. that's something you can live with every day, knowing she is alive every day in this work, that she inspired, that she started. >> that's true. if the real magic behind all of this, which is kind of i think extraordinarily special, is that we found that having aaron why life always had the same line, if all that worked for aaron, it would be deficient, and then there was darren, linda, this, and on and on. she said, each one, if you help change their life a bit, be happy. well, aaron's coming taught us something very extraordinary. that was to take care of them. we thought we could do that with surgery, but we had to do something we didn't think we would have to do. when aaron came off the plane the very first time, i went to

meet him. he came off of the rampway, everyone came off the plane except him, and we were waiting, nurse and everything, first time, and then a woman came off. i said, did you see a serviceman, and she started crying, and then he came off. you know, it's very emotional experience, but the point of it is that we found out if we put families together with each of these service members, then the community, the real value comes in, because the community can give to our service members. families undertake the responsibility of once surgery is over, bringing a meal to our guesthouse, taking them out to the beach, going to a theatrical event, sailing, whatever it is, going to disneyland, but it gives people a chance to participate and show that they really care, and these -- aaron

is very, very close with the first buddy family who happened to be my youngest son. my oldest son is a buddy family to a young marine as well. this is an incredible community special. when you provide that cocoon, you can succeed. >> willie, that's what "time" was talking about, 0.5% seemingly fighting this war alone -- >> we can do better. >> but operation mend is doing that. >> it sounds like a cliche, but one person can make a difference. ron, it's great to see you. >> remember that success unshared is a failure. >> that's right. well said. aaron, congratulations on the award. for more information visit operationmend.ucla.edu. [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." new weekly jobless numbers are out. brian schactman has the numbers. so break you news. what's it look like? >> it's a 390,000, for perspective that's a seven-month low. that's pretty good news. they want to see below 400,000, as we talk about. as we look through this month, we want to see that rate come down, a couple weeks of that, we might get under 9%. we had greek unemployment numbers. you want to know what theirs is? 18.4% unemployment in the country of greece. but yesterday we thought the euro zone was imploding, the italian ten-year note was above 10%, which basically meant the country could not borrow money and our stock market went down

400 points. today we're up about 100 points in the futures. what's changed? the truth is, not a lot. you have the central bank buying more bonds, and the new greek prime minister papademos is the name you need to do, and a bit of a head scratcher in these markets. but right now looking at a positive open. >> that is great news. thank you so much, brian. >> go amherst, by the way. >> amherst? what is going on here? >> really, brian? really? >> amherst? >> you really want to do that? >> amherst or williamstown? >> where is the game? >> i think it's at williams. >> that's this weekend? we should go. >> amherst is 7-0, baby, a juggernaut. >> road trip. let's go up there, we will road trip it and we will pretend like the game matters.

>> game of the century. >> and it does matter. all right. more "morning joe" in a moment. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. of course, neither do i. solution? td ameritrade mobile trader.

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looking ahead to tomorrow, david axelrod will be here on set. >> do you think he's going to go after mitt romney again, david? they're focus the on mitt

romney, like a laser. it's like nobody else exists in the republican field. >> they don't talk about herman cain, or rick perry. it's all mitt romney. >> and general ray odierno. up next, what did we learn today? >> what a beautiful shot. t.j. is out of the control room, because that's actually nice. >> that's vegas.

[ ben harper's "amen omen" playing ]

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quiet for a minute. quiet for a machine, our i'm going to ask you to leave. >> you know what? >> it just never gets old. snl, a script is ready. >> mr. downey is very happy, is he not? >> i learned that my friends do great work, but operation mind.ucla.edu, help guys like aaron mankin. >> that's a great organization. >> what did you they should? >> i learned -- >> mike, what did you learn? >> i learned for all the boys and girls out there, you don't have to go to the movies or pick up fan sid comic books to learn about what real heroes are about. >> take a look at "time,