please. shop small on small business saturday. hello, from new york. i am chris hayes. occupy portland protesters ignored an eviction overnight and right now are participating in a n stadoff with police there. the "washington post" reports that occupy the highway, protesters marching from new york to washington encountered princeton students yelling get a job, and we are the 1%. gary johnson, a great pleasure to have you here. ucla and columbia law professor,

and also founder of the african-american policy forum, and obama state director of policy director, and now a professional of politics and international affairs, and our office neighbor, who's team so graciously welcomed us here, martin bashir. we're going to play choice cuts from his band. last night was another republican presidential debate. it was missing somebody, i think, who would added something to it, mr. jerry johnson. for the first time the candidates had to focus on foreign policy. here we are ten years out from the biggest self-inflicted foreign policy disaster in

history, and for the candidates, the lessons are completely unlearned. here is mitt romney firing up the outrage. >> one thing you can know, if we re-elect barack obama, iran will have a nuclear weapon, and if you elect me as president, mitt romney, they will not have a nuclear weapon. >> rick santorum managed to up the anti-. >> my final comment is we should be working with israel right now to do what they did in syria and iraq, which is take out the nuclear capability before the next explosion we hear is in iran. >> iran would not nuke itself. small detail. >> we know that he has the infrastructure, nuclear scientists to make a nuclear weapon. the problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty

about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons, but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. >> since you are here and were not there last night, what did you make of the sort of rattling around iran? >> i just find it so analogous to iraq. when we were going into iraq, i did not see a military threat from iraq. i mean, i know that there was talk of weapons of mass destruction, but i thought -- i think we have the military surveillance capability to see something like that happen, and if that were to happen we could have gone in and dealt with it in iraq, and i said let's not go in iraq or we will find ourselves in a civil war which there will be no end. i think one of the consequences of going into iraq was that the fact that iran had but one

adversa adversary, and we take out him, and that's the consequence of our foreign policy. >> ann marie, you worked in the president's state department, and you were the director of policy planner there, and that's a big and fanly and important job. and we saw the president talking direct negotiation with mad mahmoud ahmadinejad. i wonder if there's a relationship between that and the rhetoric that we saw last night in the gop debate. >> well, unlike iraq, the international agency, the international atomic energy agency is saying iran is closer and closer to having a nuclear weapon. in iraq, they were saying they

have a nuclear weapon and the rest of the world is not. >> is iran not five years away from the weapon itself and further away from the delivery of the weapon? that's my understanding. >> i don't think so. they are about on the ten yard line from having enough fuel and it's getting detonators and testing components. i don't think we should be going in there and trying to take that out military. i think president bush's approach did not work, and obama's approach did not work, and first place, iran would not engage back and then there was the green revolution and then engaging with the government was denying the rights of the protesters. >> is this not going to be a situation where israel deals with it, and let's be real, regardless of what we do, israel is going to ascertain the

threat? >> for the world, for all the countries that we have been working so hard to rebuild our relations with, it's the same as if it were us. >> i do agree with that. i completely agree with that, but the reality is they will go forward in their best interests. >> i am not sure that's the reality with -- >> actually sending out the f-16s. >> we keep seeing documented reports about israel getting an itchy trigger finger. i think it's just important to set the context that any military strike by israel would be essentially a proxy for the u.s. >> do you see any american president not siding up with israel in their decision to do that? >> no, no, no. absolutely. >> is there a diplomatic solution? >> having been to israel, and having talked to netanyahu, and

i have been there for a lengthy amount of time, and i got to talk to ariel sharon. i think it's wrong for us to dictate what they do or don't do, and i don't think in this case f. we say no when it comes to -- this is the discussion that we're having, is this naive to think, if we say no israel will not go with their best interests and take out the facility. >> we have been saying no for years now, and they have not done. there's a lot of sabre rattling, and that's to remind us how important this is, and if they do that, and the consequences is the undoing of everything obama has been trying to do, which is reengaging with the muslim room, and then we will be in the choice of saying we said no, and splitting completely with israel, or saying nothing in

which we basically agree that we do it. >> what happened last night, to your point, was an example of how these candidates receive american exsceptionalism. this president has attempted to use nonmilitary pressure. the failure of the economy in iran is under pressure. it's as if the president is doing nothing and if iran has not been weakened. that's a real problem, because if you are offering the idea to the american people of the only answer is to go and invade, it's ludicrous. >> you just mentioned american

exceptionali exceptionalism. i want to get to that after this break. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution,

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my foreign policy is straightforward. i would be guided by an overwhelming conviction where the america as the strongest economy and military, and it's a century where america leads the free world and the free world leads the entire world. we have a president that thinks america is another nation, but america is an exceptional nation. >> mitt romney going out on the limb -- of course, i am being sarcastic. you guys are looking at me like, what? what is your response, gary johnson, as to whether america is an exceptional nation in the

way mitt romney was describing it? >> i think we're an exceptional nation because we have humidity. >> do we have humidity? >> well, we should. that should be the american exceptionalism, and we are the people that stands up to the bully. but we have bumper received as the bully. i don't think it's just perception, we are the bully. >> i want to get -- to me what was problematic about last night's debate, those utterances from mitt romney, he probably believes that. i sort of understand that, and we live here and we are distinct, but there's a connection between constantly feeding that desire and the kind of policies we see, i feel. >> i think you hit it on the

head. let's lead by example, so let's be exceptional by the example we le lead, so let's lead by example. >> by his first overseas trip being to a muslim nation, turkey, and in light of what happened over the last ten years, that's exceptional behavior, because these candidates don't conceive of american exceptionalism, is military power and might and invasions. america is exceptional because immigrants come here, and the fact that that america welcomes people like me -- >> we put you on our tv shows. >> what you are talking about is a level of humility and a broader sense. these people don't conceive of

anything other -- >> well, at least two people last night said they supported torture. you started the top of the hour with, it's as though the last ten years have not happened. we had a huge controversy over torture, and one would think that we would not likely go back in that direction again. we have at laegs two candidates that went that way, but more importantly an audience that seemed to applaud it. where is the american people? where are they? and where is the base on this question? do we really think that there's a hankering for more torture? >> but, there was an incredible roe reversal, and there is cain saying some strong things, and

then you have mitt romney saying he would invade iran. >> what you see is a continuity. you are seeing two things happening. at the base level i think you are seeing torture becoming the badges of identity, they have become cultural issues that get the cheers that cultural issues get, and then at the level of the strategic class on the right, and you know these folks and have talked to them, and been to cocktail parties with them and such, but it's getting the banner back together on the romney campaign. >> i will say something daring on your show. some of them are friends of mine. >> you should have told us before the show. >> you need to focus on humility, values, reflecting the world, but the most troubling me to me about mitt romney, he was

going back to 1945. it's not as if the past ten years had not happened, it's like the past 50. he is talking about a world where there is one major power and then the enemy. he talk bz leading the free world. who is on the other side? >> having grown up in europe, chris, i have to -- >> i always thought you were from jersey. >> but the damage of that world view, the damage that it has done to this nation around the world is incredible in the last 15 years. you talk about 1945. america could do no wrong. in europe, we were thanking america. now you have individuals like that talking about leading the entire world and what does it do to lunatics like mahmoud ahmadinejad. it reminds them of imperialism and they won't have it any more. >> well, it's not just reminding

them, but there's a reality. we are at the end of an american imperial age. how are we going to step into the new space. are we going to be the country that gets alongs with others? it's sad when you see a person, country, entity, trying to reclaim the old glory. it's pretty pathetic. >> barack obama is not going to get elected if that's the line he takes. >> barack obama: managing america's decline. >> no, but we have to talk about it leadership in a different way of shaping and influencingi, an you have to stabbed up and talk about solving global problems pn. >> look at what happens when he stands up and he says look at the droeflmentes in libya and look at what has happened in egypt, in supporting the

military effort but not endangering other lives. his opponents say he's running down america. that's ludicrous. >> he has to develop -- >> i don't think he has failed. the irony is the president's foreign policy is quite popular, it's just that people are not that focused on it. i want to talk about more of what they said at the gop debate last night. that's relied on to help bring children holiday joy, and while it doesn't travel by sleigh or reindeer, it does get around... in fact, every year duracell sends loads of batteries to the mattel children's hospital, u.c.l.a. of course, children here and everywhere don't really think about which battery makes their toy run... but, still... you'd never want to disappoint. duracell. trusted everywhere.

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that's not martin bashir, that's -- no, that's heavy d and the boys, and he passed away this week and we wanted to give him a shotout tribute. i was a big heavy d fan when i was growing up in the bronx, so

thank you, heavy d. back to foreign policy from heavy d, a transition everybody will be making on the sunday shows. the sound bite that caught my eye comes from michele bachmann. it's not about something that was a hot button issue, iran or something, but this is michele bachmann basically praising the chinese state for its lack of social safety net, holding up china as a model for the u.s., since we are talking about exceptionalism, because people were grinding poverty. >> i think really, what i would want to do is be able to go back and take a look at johnson's great society, the great society has not worked and has put us into the modern welfare state. if you look at china, they don't have food stamps. if you look at china, they save for their own retirement

security. they don't have afdc and the modern welfare state, and china is growing. >> afdc, by the way, it was created in the new deal was famously eliminated under the clinton administration, as we move a step closer towards china. >> worry about the facts, chris. >> do you see china as a paulmo for the u.s.? >> well, what you see all presidential candidates talk about is how they would implement tariffs, however -- >> except for john huntsman, we should say. what we ought to be looking at is making america -- what we can control is america. i am advocating a fair tax, which conceivably reduces the costs of goods and services of american products by 23% and makes them competitive. but if you -- look.

tariffs. if the chinese government wants to supplement what they are selling the united states with supplement, we should take advantage of that in a free market. this is going to ultimately hurt china. the fact that china has kept their currency low, this is going to ultimately hurt china. this is a benefit to us believing that we benefit from the lower costs of goods and services but to make our services more competitive, enact the task by 23%. >> i want to stipulate that i don't agree with that, and then pursue it later. because i don't want to get in a conversation on china currency just yet, and that's hot talk for next hour, but i think that the way in which we have this very tortured attitude right now towards america, and how it stands alone, there is this simultaneous feeling of american

exceptionalism, and also the defensive crouch of decline. i think the other sound from rick perry talking about how the u.s. should handle foreign aid. >> the foreign aid budget in my administration for every country is going to start at zero dollars. zero dollars. and then we'll have a conversation. then we'll have a conversation in this country about whether or not a penny of our taxpayer dollars needs to go into those countries. >> a penny -- emery, what did you think of that? >> the view that we are going to be the great exceptional nation without foreign aid is crazy. that's a huge part of the influence in the world, the fact that we are seen in many countries, standing for our values and helping others, and that's what we do. but he completely ignored the

fact that a lot of the foreign aid to egypt and pakistan, it's about security as much as development. >> yeah, our number one recipient of foreign aid is israel -- >> but that's an ali. >> but that counts in the foreign aid budget, doesn't it? >> yes. >> when we parcel it out -- >> i think you have to give a lot of credit to rick santorum, though, because he was the one that pointed out, in the wake of that ludicrous statement by perry d. and that's more stupid than the 53 seconds of silence because that's more damaging for america in the future. rick santorum said if you remove that aid to pakistan, what you are doing is weakening security and potentially allowing that nation to harness and host all kinds of activity in the form of

activity -- i want to go back to michele bachmann. it's consistent, if you remember with what she said about the hpv vaccine, which was utterly ludicrous as well. she seems to think exposing people to poverty, and social circumstances which are horrendous, it's the best thing for them, because that's what she was saying. no social safety net, it's something a society can be proud of. we were talking last week that the top 1% in terms of disparity have had their income grow by 275% since 1979, and she wants to cut food stamps. >> this is the thing i found remarkable about the debate, there was no mention of the occupy wall street, the basic funds mental ideas being presented now. you have a race to the bottom. you have michele bachmann saying essentially the one thing that makes us so exceptional, we thought of ourselves as a

society that provided the ability for generations to continuously move up through the so-called great society program, that's the one thing that we can sacrifice now, and why? because of china? china doesn't have one. >> china does have one. >> a breath-taking contradiction between the idea that we stand alone as the place of opportunity, and we can throw that away and still be great. >> well, i was down on occupy wall street. i was in portland, occupy portland and los angeles, and there's an outrage that i think is justified, and that is that this country is not fair. we dole it out unfairly. they give certain corporations breaks and groups that are well connected politically as opposed to a system that is level, fair. that's what government should be about. >> the president of which party? >> well, i know, but --

>> i am trying to make the pitch, and -- >> gary, i will say after -- when we come back after the next break, gary and i will talk about the candidacy. when he gets to the proposesed solutions, maybe you will find more to quibble with. >> i remember you saying clearly, chris, the change in the great society has led many people to feel the whole idea of social mobility is a fraud and they have been lied to and misled, and there's no chance of them progressing, and you have been saying that repeatedly. >> i am writing a book about it, in fact. and that connects to what we have is a domestic sensation that the playing field is deeply unlevel, that it's actually favoring certain people against others. >> i am under the belief the root of that is the politicians. the root of all evil are the

politicians that save us, and make sure we don't die from poor health care, and just elect me and keep me in office, and this is what i am going to do. >> i would go for the dying from poor health care, but lets talk about that after this break. .. a toothpaste. crest 3d white. if beauty editors notice, who else will? crest 3d white toothpaste. life opens up when you do. free gold ! we call that hertz gold plus rewards. you earn free days, free weeks and more fast. that's a plus. upgrade your ride. that's a plus. rewards with no blackout dates so you can redeem anytime. and it's easy to redeem your points online. already a gold member ? just select gold plus rewards in your profile and start rewarding yourself now. just go to hertzgoldplusrewards.com to join. hertz gold plus rewards. journey on. insurance companies you're just a policy.

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♪ >> those are the sweet, sweet reggae sounds of martin bashir holding down this track. my staff brought this to my attention, and i was playing it and it was good. >> what a phrase. i think it's quite good. >> it's spectacular. >> sort of. excellent base playing.

>> i have a theory, and i would like to have your thought. the theory is there's a division between the stau taenlgic class and the university, and that's aggressive about military and the pro-war posture, and the base which i think is not quite as interested in more military adventurism as the kind of think tank class is, and i think it's quite interesting when john huntsman staked out the dovish type of -- i should not overlook gary johnson sitting at my table. here is huntsman, and listen to the reaction he got. i, too, thought that was interesting. >> i think the spikes obviously are driven by lack of security, proper security in certain parts of the country, which could

plague us for a long time to come. i take a different approach on afghanistan. i say it's time to come home. i say this nation has achieved i think so's key objectives in afghanistan. we had free electives in 2004. we up rooted the taliban, and killed bin laden. i say this nation's future is not afghanistan or iraq, but this nation's future is how prepared we are to meet the 21st century competitive challenges, and that's economic and education. >> i thought that was interesting. it was not a rousing applause, but it was applause. johnson, since you are running for president in the gop field and you have a more dovish posture than the other contestants, is there an appetite for the base. is there a fact that you and huntsman and ron paul think the

>> i think the majority of the base supports getting out of afghanistan tomorrow. i am not stating that position of what i think is the majority of the base, but putting that to the test right now. i thought afghanistan initially was totally warranted. we were attacked and attacked back, but after having been in afghanistan for six months, we wiped out al qaeda. and that was six months ago. don't we have the same needs here in this country? i would get out of afghanistan tomorrow. >> but, i want to object to the phrasing of that a little bit. that's a common phrasing. you hear it across the aisle, we need to nation build here at home. my feeling is we did not bomb the heck out of their countries. we owe the afghanis something, and iraq something. that does not mean occupation or military forces, but it does

mean roads and bridges and schools, because there are a lot that our bombs blew up, right? >> i would think there's a difference in terms of getting a more stable afghanistan. what we have been trying to do is get afghanistan to a place where it will stay relatively stable and secure so that everything we did in the first six months is not undone, but i think we all recognized at this point is that we are not achieving those objectives. we have been there a long time, and it's time to hand it over. >> i just think that we will have the same conversation ten years from now. >> no -- >> that's an unconventional war. i think for the base, one of the questions is can this be framed in a way that doesn't sound as though it's defeat, it sounds as though we have won, and there is victory -- >> yeah, there's a clear victory. come back home and do what we need to do. as long as the folks who really have the airtime or framing, the

entire things in terms of the american decline, as opposed to the way you might frame it, i think the base will be torn about it. >> vietnam taught us a lesson when it comes to victory, and if there is anything that we should have learned from vietnam, is we need to get out of afghanistan. >> what is interesting about afghanistan, about the same time you have robust showing americans across both parties favor drawing that to a close, you have a consensus across both parties to stay in afghanistan and keep groups there. >> you are reading different reports than i am. everybody that i know thinks we should be getting out between now and 2014. i don't know anybody, except for possibly mitt romney's advisers who are saying we should not get out until 2014. >> that has lagged public opinion. yes, i think that people are

behind public opinion behind when to get out -- we will talk more about this, and i want to talk to gary johnson about your campaign for presidency and what message you are trying to get out and talk about right after this break. asive. if the surface gets abraded, it's just the environment that bacteria likes to nestle into and they can cause the odor. your denture needs to be cleaned gently on a daily basis. i like to recommend polident, it kills the bacteria without causing any abrasion. when my patients follow my instructions, their dentures feel clean and fresh. they look forward to putting them in their mouth and smiling.

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no matter when you call chase sapphire preferred, you immediately get a person not a prompt. chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. (phone ringing) chase sapphire preferred, this is julie in springfield. i was chastised during the break, i have to stop reinforcing the mental frames of what constitutes restraint -- bad. gary johnson, i want to show you the national polling average right now in the gop field. we average, i think, the last five polls, i believe, and here is where things stand. mitt romney around 22%, and herman cain around 20%, and

gingrich around 17%, and perry around 9%. and i think it was said, it's funny the two-term governor of the state of new mexico that left with high approval ratings is the fringe candidate and the ceo of the pizza company is a frontrunner. i wonder what you make of why it's the case that somebody that was a two-term governor of new mexico, and was quite popular when termed out, how do you understand that? >> well, here is the rub for me, i am not in those polls. i dare say that those five polls that you cited, my name doesn't appear in the polls. that's the rub. five cnn polls ago, i was at 2% of the national vote. >> and you were in a debate scent to that? >> fox chose to interpret the rules of the bait as the last national five polls where my name appears, and other polls were the showing in the national five polls when i am not on the

poll as a criteria to be in the debate, so five cnn polls ago, i was tied with cain and puts me ahead of santorum. in the four subsequent polls, may name is not on the list, so tell me, is that anything but unfair. >> huntsman has not polled well throughout the thing, but there's no question that he is considered as -- i am curious about the dynamics that produce the conception of who is is a serious candidate and who is not? >> to me, this is a boardroom decision being made somewhere. i have been excluded from being one of those candidates. it's a catch-22. when you are out -- in the debate, fund-raising goes up. when you talk to somebody that says, hey, man, you are my guy, you are my guy and i wish you were successful, but i am looking at a poll here and your name is not on the poll, and you

are not even credible. i am not saying i am ahead of these guys, but i should be at the table. i never thought i would be excluded from the debate table. >> if you were at the table, it strikes me as the candidates who have success, and there are bubbles who will be the tea party alternative to mitt romney, and we saw the bizarre donald trump situation, and bachmann, and then herman cain is sort of riding that now, and all of these candidates have in common that they throw out a lot of red meat and speak in the language of culture war and speak in the language of the intense afill nations to a world view, and your indock trau nation on things, isn't that hurting you? >> every candidate on stage is a social conservative. i consider myself to be a classical liberal, and that's somebody that believes in less

government, and that's somebody who believes that the best thing that government can do for you and i is to empower you and i to make decisions that only you and i should make, and that gets back to my fundamental belief that a woman has -- i support a woman's right to choose. >> but the liberalism brings us to this point, which i think is that there was a concerted effort made by messaging gurus among the conservatism party, to declared what was called the social issues truce, and away from social issues because polling among young people particularly on things like gay marriage was seen as not creating the political returns it formerly had, and what was striking to me is how much the base doesn't want a social issues truce, and the base of the party is as gunned up ori n ginnedup by social issues as they ever have been. >> i think the majority is a

classical liberal, but when it comes to the activist, 90% of the activist are social conservatives. that's not the majority of the republican party. i believe i am speaking on behalf of the party. in running for new mexico, i did not get any of the social conservative vote in the primary when i ran the first time for governor. i got all of those votes in the general election, and now we will refer to issue number two, and that's dollars and cents. i am talking about the first time i ran. the first time i ran, mexico is two to one democrat, and i will argue i was the biggest penny-pinching governor in the country and i did get re-elected by a margin bigger than the first time, and that's in a state that is democrat, and people do care how their dollars gets spent. >> but look at your stance on

immigration compared to everybody. >> that would be based on the fact that i am a border governor. here is the one that i love. >> what is your stance on immigration, by the way? >> you look at the debates. candidate number one, build a fence, candidate two, build a parallel double fence, and candidate number five, we will electr electric trau fi the fence. government should make it possible for somebody to come into the country that wants to work and get a visa. would mexicans stand in line to get a work visa if the line was moving? absolutely. and then drugs -- >> that's after this break. in . credit and debit purchases, checks, bills, and other financial information. it lets you see the details

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i promised a conversation with drugs to gary johnson. marijuana legalization is one of the issues again, it has an air about it that is taken unseriously. i made a joke about it which i should not have done probably, but there's a certain atmosphere around it, that it's a stoner issue or college kid issue, and i don't think people realize how many people are in prison across the country. >> 50% support legalizing -- >> we have the polling. look at that. that looks like gay marriage polling is what it looks like. that's a place where the trend is moving in a very, very clear direction, and the question i want to ask you, again, it seems like the issue, and william buckley came out in the pages four decades ago over drug legalization, and do you think that's where the republican

party, the republican base is on the issue? do you think there's potential on this? >> the potential is that there's an issue that does well when people talk about it, and it's a position that does well when you shine light on it. as part of the campaign, and back to border violence, you know, every single presidential candidate is talking about adding more guns to the problem of violence on the border. we're just going to put that many more guns into the equation and that's how we will win it. legalize marijuana, and 70% of the border violence goes away, and that being the estimate of the drug cartel activities are engaged in the drug activity. that's how you deal with it. >> how do you deal with the concerns that marijuana use before the age of 16, which occurs in valuious numbers in this country, increases your chances of serious psychotic illness seven times as an adult? is that a consideration for you?

>> is that true? i never heard of that. >> let's just assume it's completely true. this is an issue that families should deal with as similar to alcohol, but when you add the criminal justice, when you add criminalality in it for partaking of it, it makes it worse. 90% is prohibition related, and not use related. that's not to discount -- >> it's a gateway drug. >> well, there's no category is marijuana more harmful than alcohol. none, zero. >> what is the obama administration's position now with respect to legalization? in california, for example, they have been closing down the suspense res, and the assumption was the administration supported

it. what is going on there? >> i have no idea. a couple things that obama said when he was running for office that -- i thought we would be get out of the conflikts and not engaged in any new military conflicts, and when it came to drug policies, very favorable. he said i will not look the resources of the united states government to go into california and shut down the dispensaries. and this is now a letter issued that we will do just that. >> the director of gas line will join us to talk about how environmental took over the keystone pipeline coming up next.

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colleague, martin brashear, who is my office mate up on the eighth floor here at 30 rock. his show is at 3:00 p.m. every day here on msnbc. check it out. and then fox, the filmmaker behind the film, gas land, and he has made a short film about the keystone pipeline. there's big news about the pipeline in what happens to be a movement to stop it. it would be a 1,700 mile pipeline. it would carry 900,000 barrels a day from heavy crude from canada down to the refineries in oklahoma and the gulf coast. because of the extra energy involved in processing oil from tar sands, which is the kind of oil in alberta, the epa statements the emissions will be

82% greater carbon than from crude oil. and a coalition has come to oppose the pipeline. they targeted this project because it requires an affirmative finding of national interest from the president. the president has to approve it, and if he does not approve it it cannot be build. protesters demonstrated in front of the white house protesting the environmental impact of the line. that has been the latest of what has been in the remarkable reactions, including people getting arrested outside the white house this summer. and then the obama administration decided not to give his okay until after the 2012 election.

we had a protester here joining us. what was your reaction to the news that the white house is going to delay issuing a finding national interest on this? >> well, i have to say that i was quite thrilled. i think that it's -- the biggest win we have seen of this type of action in a long time. >> how did you get involved in this issue? why is this something that you are willing to wake up at 4:00 a.m. in california to come and talk to us today about this? >> because i love my children. >> yeah. >> and, you know, i -- i just recently, in hurricane eileen, i live in upstate new york, and in the past five years, we have seen the 50-year flood, and 100-year flood, and a 250-year flood and a 500-year flood, and that's not natural.

i have been fighting hydrofraking there, and there's a link between the hydrofraking and the tar sands, and that is the gas they will be using will be emitting an 80% jump in how much carbon it takes to produce this kind of energy is going to be natural gas. that's hydrofrack natural gas. i put all of these issues together. i really do take climate change seriously. the iea came out a few days ago saying we have five years to stem the tide of climate change. man's biggest enemy is climate change. if we don't turn it back in five years, it will be unstoppable. we will experience a world of pain and so will our children. the keystone pipeline was a collect action that was

winnable. i really did see it as an opportunity, and i was liking what i was hearing president obama saying about putting our people and our peoples' health before economics. >> mark -- josh, you made a short film about the keystone pipeline. we have a clip because it talks about situating this movement in the context of other direct action movements. the legislative process is offering nothing right now. >> that's right. i think at the moment our democracy boils down to civil disobedience, and whether or not you do it. >> right. >> well, that's the bottom line right now. honestly. i am making gas land two, and it's a contamination in washington, d.c. when you have the natural gas industry spending $774 million lobbying the government to get

egg s exceptions to the clear drinking water act, and when you see that, basically, when you go to washington, the citizens' voice is the smallest voice. it's the voice that you have to fight in there through all of the rest of the moneyed interest to make a point. so when you see something as common sense as not adding this enormous jump in carbon emissions to the atmosphere, because you have calculate what it would add to the atmosphere, by excavating the entire tar sands. >> when you talk about the peoples' voice being the quietest, i think what you hit on is this president's sensitivity. when you think about it, his background in academia, and his background as a community organizer means that he is somebody that responds to persuasion, and what is

happening is, when people go out, he is listening. i don't think the voice is as quite as small and indistinct as you might think. >> what i am saying, when you get out in the streets, absolutely, that's my point. i was at the power shift conference, which is a huge conference -- >> a climate activist -- >> young climate activist. >> it's a amazing conference. i covered it a few years, and it's tremendously inspiring. it's young people from all overt country who are doing amazing work on this. >> they have incredible speakers, al gore, lisa jackson, and jones, and there was a meeting of the power shift, and the students that started it at the white house, and obama walked in and spent 40 minutes there. he said where you are guys? i need to hear from you. boom, here we go. this is an administration that does listen to protest. i think there's something to do here with the state department being investigated about

possible self dealing with the tarsands at the keystone -- >> yeah, and based on allegations and e-mails leaked particularly essentially from somebody that worked on the hillary clinton campaign lobbying for this. mark, you wanted to say something. i want to let you jump in. >> i wanted to say that josh and i went to washington to lobby, and we were told explicitly by a senator, a stop senator's staff, hey, listen, we love what you are doing, but good luck, this place is awash with gas and oil money. so i think what we're seeing now, we had this great democracy tool, that is made with the policy holders and legislators, more possible than ever before. the internet made it possible

for us to really engage them in a way with our time and our energy, we didn't have -- we couldn't do that before. you had to mail or call, and now you can send an e-mail. but we're not seeing these actions actually doing anything for ourselves. we're not seeing these direct actions doing anything. so the last thing that people are allowed to do, and what they are doing is literally taking to the streets. >> mark, i want you to stick with us for a little more if you don't mind. we will talk more about this after the break. i couldn't conceive this as a heart attack.

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i want to hold our government accountable. i want you to hold me accountable. [ applause ] that's president obama speaking, i think, on the

campaign trail in 2008 talking about wanting the liberal base to hold him accountable, and that's what the liberal base has been doing on the pipeline. i want to give you a chance to respond about the inspector general opening up the investigation into the process, so folks are clear, it's the state department that does the entire process that does the natural interest findsings, and that's a lot of criticisms from the beginning, and the inspector general has opened up an investigation into it. what do you want to say about the matter? >> i have no insight into the internal investigation, and that's why we have an inspector general, but the fact that the state department has to do it, and they are looking at the international implications. canada is saying we ship it to you or china. we thought -- >> it's coming out of the ground either way. >> it's coming out of the ground either way, and you told us you would buy it, and we counted on

it. i think it's weird that the state department making that determination, but if you are the state department you don't need funny business to find that this is in our national interest from a foreign policy point of view, but it doesn't mean it's in our best interest from a national policy. >> the state department is going out to india and promoting fraking all across the world. it was the activist that put a spotlight on the issue, and you opened it up and it looks like there's a solution. it's not that hard to figure out that there is deal making going on in washington, and it didn't surprise me that there was communication. >> i need to see your movie, and i will make a pledge to see your movie. i have a question about fraking and the fact that you can turn on the faucet in pennsylvania

and light the stream on file. >> there's a small amount of methane in ground water, but not at that flammable level. there's the methane, and that relates to the drilling. what we are talking about in pennsylvania right now, the delaware commission is about to vote for 20,000 fract gas wells. the obama had minute administration has a key vote. this is where the vote is going. >> i want to ask you where you see this movement going? what is the next step? this is a victory. the delay, it may not be a total and complete victory, and we don't know what is going to come after 2012, but what is the next step that you see? >> i think we have to get to the root of the problem, and the

root of the problem is we are addicted to carbon-faced fuel in a way that is grotesque. we had the biggest recession in 80 years, and still our carbons emission jumped 6%. climate change is real. it's happening. it's happening to america today and americans today. we need a renewable national energy policy, and that is where this is all headed. carbon is not the answer. another 30 years of burning gas in the $700 billion infrastructure change to use natural gas as bridge fuel is not the answer. we can go directly to the renewables today and we have the technology and that's where the movement is going. people want climate change dealt with. they know it's happening. >> chris, compare that view with rick perry's view right now, and ask yourself, is rick perry

representing the nation's interest when you hear mark describe it in those terms. >> it's not just rick perry. my sense is that you believe -- you believe in -- you do not question the robust scientific consensus on man made global warming from carbon emissions from human beings. mitt romney being the last hold out, but the rest of the republican field does. it's an article of faith. jon huntsman is the stand out on this issue. why is it the case the republican party has wanted to deny the most basic science on the matter? >> well, it's such a divisive issue. >> that's because people made it a divisive issue. >> it's not divisive except if you are being paid by the oil company. >> biofuels, geothermal, solar,

wind, the bet on the green space is that every five years, all the technologies become 100% more efficient. that's not happening. that's not even getting close to happening. but if it were, and it's not insignificant, but if it were the green space would fill 15% of our energy needs in 15 years. so to turn our back -- >> that's simply not true. there are plants that exist right now -- we can run the world on renewables on much less time than that. we have to turn to the renewables. and i don't want to cut my friend off, but mark is telling you the truth is what we need to be doing is developing less fossil fuels and not more. if you mind the tar sands, if you drill all the gas, you have 4,000 fold the level of co2 going into the --

>> hey, let's talk jobs. >> please, talk about jobs. >> jobs, okay, the fastest -- the only growth sector in the united states right now is the green sector. that's efficiency and renewables and transmission. now, that is paying 20% more -- this is from "usa today," and that's paying more than any sector in the united states, and not only that, it's employing more people than all the extraction centers put together. if we want to talk about energy and independence, this is where you really talk about energy and independence. nobody ever killed anybody over a solar panel. nobody went to war over a wind turbine or a title turbine. this technology is happening. it's happening today. and we have to mobilize against the world's greatest enemy. if this was world war ii, if this was a war, we just put

trillions of dollars into wars that right now we are all standing back and shaking our heads in shame if we are going to be honest with ourselves of what happened there. we spent trillions of dollars, and probably untold lives have been lost. if we took that action and used that kind of focus on this problem, which is a world problem, we would start seeing some serious changes happening. what are we really paying for oil and gas? we don't know. when we extrapolate the wars and the geopolitics and the health and what is happening on health, we are probably paying 20 or $30 a gallon for gasoline. >> mark is an actor and environmental activist, joining us from l.a., and josh fox, also an environmental activist. did i just get your name wrong? >> no. >> you looked at me and i

thought i got his name wrong. >> i was going to say human rights activist. these are human rights when we are talking about the environment. >> it has been a great pleasure to have you on, and thank you so much. appreciate it. >> nice talking to you. ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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we're back with crenshaw, and we have presidential candidate, johnson, who has joined us all morning long. >> thank you. >> glad you are enjoying yourself. and then the director of the policy planner, and now my friend and colleague, martin bashir. we just had mark and josh on that were talking about the

climate change. his statistics about the job sector did not strike me as correct, i don't know this, but we are fact checking. extraction industries employ a whole lot of people. we want to fact check that and we will put it on the website and get back to you on those numbers since we are responsible for everything said on our program. the reason i wanted to come back to this, it seems to me there's two aspects of the climate issue. there is accepting the science as a foundational thing, and then there's what we will do about it. and then there are people who say we need to stop thinking about not putting carbon in the air, and we need geoengineering, and then we will throw spray to deflect the sunlight, and create clean coal, and what do i know, right? the point is that how you deal

with the problem and excepting the problem are two distinct things. we can have a conversation on the half of things, the latter half of things, once we look at the first set of things. one part of the country is committed to dissenting from the core first agreement. how do we deal with the problem if there is not agreement at the basic level of the science on your side of the aisle? what do we do? >> first of all, i think americans are demanding less carbon emission. i think that we're going to deliver on that. >> you think that's true? >> oh, yes. >> 23 states are part of carbon exchanges. >> as a whole. energy production in the future is going to be cleaner relative to what it is today. we will have to produce more energy going forward and then there's the rest of the world and what they are doing, and then you are going back to so you are going to put all of this -- look, i am taking the

approach where you accept the science, and accept that it's man caused, and that said what do we do about it? what we do about it is when you look at the environmental practice, the best contributor to good environmental practice is good economy. so that's what we need to concentrate on. and we're demanding less carbon emission. we will get it together as we have gotten cleaner energy today relative to 40 -- >> i should tell folks, there's a famous science, and he wrote a book called "the skeptical scientist" in which he wrote that global warming was incorrect and then he wrote a second book saying i was incorrect when he wrote another book. >> there are 23 states part of some kind of cap and trade scheme. at the state level, more is happening than at the federal

level. >> i am opposed to cap and trade. i think it would be devastating the economy. and then you look at all the money that we would be putting into this relative to the outcome. i think we could be putting that money into -- >> cap and trade creates the incentive to be the most efficient. what you want to do is create incentives for private actors to keep refining the technology to lower emissions. >> that's where we have the disagreement, that government can bring about this kind of action, and then what is the results? >> what is the pie in the sky results from all of the money that we will spend to reduce carbon emission? i think it doesn't end up making a difference at the end of the day, relative to us demanding that less carbon emission which we will get. >> in the class of the liberal framework, and what we face with carbon is a classic exste

exsternality, and cap and trade is one such means of doing so and cap and trade is a radical leftist thing. it was almost the market-based approach to dealing with the issue. environmentalist used to fight the cap and trade -- >> yeah, a carbon tax. >> what we are seeing is we are trying to chase the consensus. this is something that i really think about a lot. i think about the civil rights movement, and i think about the level of social consensus that had to be achieved outside of the south to produce the level of change necessary to win the civil rights victory, and i wonder if we have today, an environment that produce that same level? >> the governor was talking about accepting the science. if you listen to the gop presidential debates. you hear repeatedly, a complete dissing and disregard for some

of the science. over the last five years, you would be shocked at the number of evangelical christian thae l th thae low junz. i am so pleased you make the reference to the civil rights movement, because people standing on the podium are not listening to people like rick warren, who has written expensively on the fact that man-made emissions are causing the planet to heat up, and he believes that it's an individual christian's responsibility to take a conservationists position. that is changing. these republican candidates are not listening to that. >> just to build on the analogy. there were always arguments in the civil rights context even

that it would be costly. >> that's very interesting and true. >> what is the morality because of the costs. they didn't defend segregation because of the market, but we need a different sensibility. the question is, what unit, what group outside of the south will be the parallel? because we had the north and the south. what do we have on the side -- >> it's rooted in america. i think it's really rooted in american values. the way i think about it, you have to go with america the beautiful rather than the battle hymn of the republic. >> i wish carbon emissions were not invisible. i think -- >> that's the problem.

you don't have the full picture. >> we do not have carbons -- >> our game show for today's sunday morning political talk shows, right after this. ea o moxp l l. re spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. it's hard for my crew to keep up with 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. 2% cash back. that's setting the bar pretty high. thanks to spark, owning my own business has never been more rewarding. [ male announcer ] introducing spark the small business credit cards from capital one. get more by choosing unlimited double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? this guy's amazing.

gary johnson -- gary johnson is laughing at me chair dancing. some of the big names on today's sunday talkers include r and c chair, and virginia senator, mark warner, and congressman who might have the most inkinsying name in congress. what would you ask? >> i would be imploring the super committee to be really up front and transparent, and be -- have an on going dialogue about,

hey, if we are going to cut that amount of money it will have to involve medicaid and medicare, and that's going to have to involve the military, and i don't hear that dialogue taking place. i am in the camp that believes we can provide a safety net when it comes to health care. we should do that. this is something that we can do. we have gone way beyond the line. the biggest threat to the national security is the fact that we continue to spend a whole lot more money than what we take in, and i am in the camp that believes we're going to experience a monetary collapse if we don't fix it. >> i am not in that camp. what do you want to hear from jeb that would make you think the super committee -- >> just an honest dialogue. that we're going to take this stuff on. let's talk about the military. let's talk about the military spending. do we really need 2300 nuclear

warheads. why not 500? do we need to blow up the world or -- >> i like that question. >> i would take my question to local politics in los angeles the major of los angeles is on, and going back to the conversation of incarceration and drugs. because of the prison overcrowding in california, california has gone through what they call realignment, which means they are letting people out, and the counties are responsible for taking care of their prisoners. people thought realignment would bring about a realignment in terms of drug enforcement and more resources for treatment and etc., etc., but what is happening is local officials are saying since we are getting more folks back, we need more money for security and police. one of the things that i would like to ask the mayor is, what happened to the idea that the

best, most secure way to deal with this problem is to create more treatment, more re-entry programs. all of this money that was supposed to be made available now, and like the money that became available after defense spending was supposedly no longer necessary seems to be going right back into incarceration. >> can i answer this question? >> yes. please. since we are role playing, let's just go the whole way. >> here is the problem with the treatment problem in the country. the problem with the treatment model in the country is that it's forced. would you like to go to jail or would you like to go to treatment. i would like to offer that in 100 cases, but the reality is people chooses treatment and it doesn't work. people choose to smoke marijuana, and they are going to continue to smoke marijuana -- yes, they are going to take the drug test when it comes to treatment and it keeps them out of jail, great, but is it effective? no, not at all, because it's a forced treatment model.

>> there's a lot of reasons why it's not effective. drug treatment is not a one size fits all situation. women in particular become independent on drugs for a whole range of different reasons that are not attributable to the ways we think of, and so they need to create more diversity and access, and -- >> we should also say that there are treatment models across the world that have proven remarkably effective. >> that absolutely ought to be used. we have a forced -- >> but that is away from punitiveness. >> i am sure the sunday talkers will talk about nothing but treatment in a little bit. what is your question in >> i have a much shorter question. governor huntsman will be on one of the shows, and i would ask him, i would say, look, your views on foreign policy are more

nuance than competitors, but it takes you longer to explain, and how are you going to convince voters clap for are wrong? >> i think they are trying to come up with ways to talk about foreign policy that don't fit on a bumper sticker. you came up with leading from behind, right? >> i did not. i did not. >> i'm kidding. i'm kidding. it's a joke. it's a quote from an anonymous senior administration official, and it was described to talk about the way they assembled the -- >> not i. >> we have a denial on the record. >> i would have to go to michele bachmann and i want to say, did you lie when you told a story about a woman who alleges that her daughter contracted mental retardation, in heard words, as

a consequence of receiving the vaccine, and if that was a lie, which i think it probably was, should you not now encourage all families to listen to the science on this and for their children to receive the immunization for their own future. >> that was very convincing. you should have your own television show. you are very convincing, as it turns out. congratulations. congratulations.

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and it was more, it was billions with a b. my bad. and the gop presidential debate, at least two candidates say they are getting short changed. now they may have proof on that. new leads beyond penn state, there are no four on going probes into the sex allegations there. that investigation is widening. iran and the nuclear question. president obama presses the leaders of russia and china to get tough, but did he make progress? we will get to that coming up at 10:00. >> thank you. what should you know as we head into the week? the think tank glass that runs the gop policy does not represent the views of the republican base, and they are far more skeptical of the current and future possible wars than their counterparts are. and then the commissioner will take the rooens of the italian

state where he will be tasked with overseeing measures. you should know that karl rove's gps launched an attack where they yanked the ad off the air. the vote cited in the ad was a procedural vote, one aimed on cracking down on china for currency manipulation. and there's no rule on an epa rule on dust. and there is one of several ads that are misleading. you should know cross words gps is just getting started. and after celebrity chef compared bankers to some of history's greatest monsters, bloomberg reports that bankers

are striking back by organizing a boycott of his restaurants. and ruling class solidarity is a real thing. in the latest cbs news poll on the presidential place, herman cain is still the leader after four documented sexual harassments claim against him. and the campaign of civil disobedience against the keystone pipeline achieved a major victory with the state department announcing they will put it on hold until 2012. the battle is far from over, since the administration will allow it to go forward once the election is over. making a lot of noise is an effective way of getting the white house's attention. since it's important to be up on your means, you should know pictures of oprah winfrey running away from things, based

on this picture of her running over hot coals, the internet photo shopped dozens of variations on this theme. you should know alex wagner's new show "now" premieres tomorrow, at noon, and i will join her as a guest later in the week, so you will definitely want to check it out. my guest will come back and tell us what they think we should know this week right after this. companies you're just a policy.

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all right. our guests are back to tell us what we should know as the news unfolds had week. i'm going to start with republican candidate for president, kerry johnson, former mayor. gary johnson what should people now as we head into the week snoo. >> the occupy movement is right on. this country doles it out unfairly. it has a root in money and in

pol t politicians getting that money and getting favors. government is easy, it's not hard. i'm going to shame myself or shame leslie huck myself -- >> i thought you did it on purpose. >> awesome. >> pulled it off. keep going, governor. you pulled it off. >> the reason i am not appearing in the debates is because i am not even in the polls that determine whether or not i should be in the debates. i think i'm bringing a voice to that wall occupy movement which is government needs to be a level playing field. we can have good government in this country. that is the one thing that government can do and one thing the government doesn't do. >> gary johnson. that's good. kimberly ken shaw. what should people know? >> we'll build on the occupy wall street. statistics came out a few weeks ago that the american poverty rate is the highest rate that it's been in 53 years. so now more than 2.1 more people

have fallen into poverty. >> 2.1 million. >> 2.6 million, actually. there's 46.2 million people in poverty. this whole conversation and many of the presidential debates about the middle class. what middle class? at this point we need to talk about impoverishment. the shredding social security and the social service safety net. your candidacy is one of the reasons why we need to think more about getting people into the republican debate who really will talk about wall street, talk about issues of economic quality. >> the poverty numbers are something we've talked about on the show. they've changed the way they figure it. the 46.2 million is such a shocking number. in some ways it's surprising to me it's not a headline everywhere. we have mortgage zuckerman on the program. he's a fabulously wealthy man, billionaire. he kept coming back to it. sort of shaking his head.

it doesn't -- it's amazing to me how much it's not in the conversation. >> let me throw something out that's a little more shocking. the median wealth for african-american women, $5. $5. so you know, perhaps one of the reasons that it doesn't quite have traction is everybody thinks it's someone else. when in reality, the declining income for the middle class means that many of them have fallen below the poverty line and don't see themselves as that group. >> we are the 46 million. emery slaughter, what should people know? >> colin powell says occupy wall street is as american as apple pie. that's colin powell, former secretary of state in george bush's administration. if you don't want to take the streets but you think our democracy is broken and corrupt, then you can go to getmoneyout. a website devoted to a constitution -- get money out. we have passed 29 amendments through the constitution.

we can amend the constitution to say no more money in politic. we break the money bog down. >> get money out is a project of our -- not only our colleague but our the other eighth floor resident dylan ratigan on every day after martin bashir at 3 p.m. >> martin, bashir. what should people know? you can inform them daily. what should they know? >> when you think about herman cain and tempted to disregard his campaign search for the presidency and tempted to book him as a speaker or buy his book, remember what he said and how he described secretary of state hillary clinton when he talked about bless her with regard to her foreign policy when he made a joke about anita hill. i think you need to remember that herman cain, i think, has content for women in high office in this nation -- contempt for women in high office in this

nation. he's basically preparing for once he falls out of this race. don't book him. >> strong words from martin bashir. i want to thank my guests today. republican presidential candidate gary johnson. >> thank you. >> we'll have you back. kimberly crenshaw. and ann marie slaughter. my friend, nbc's martin bashir. whose program airs every day right you've said it enough times. chris. i'll come on again. >> thank you for joining us at home. we'll be back next saturday at 7:00 eastern time and sunday at 8:00 a.m. our guests include congressman steve cohen and msnbc'ses melissa perry will return to the program. set your dvr's now. in the meantime, find us on facebook. up next is alex witt. we'll see you next week here on "up."

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contact your local travelers agent, or call 800-my-coverage. penn state, new leads in the sex abuse case. there are four ongoing investigations. how far will it reach? controversy at the gop presidential debate. at least two candidates say they are getting shortchanged. they may have some proof now. which one of the candidates would go to war in iran over the nuclear program? feeling lucky? apparently a lot of people are. that's one of today's ups and downs. good morning everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." it's 10:00 a.m. in the east coast, 7:00 a.m. out west. the republican presidential debate last night. eight hopefuls squared off focusing on foreign policy. hires one of the frontrunners,