of glee, joy at the misery of others. they suffer and die, we survive and get on. fa, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. that's "hardball." "the ed show" with ed schultz begins right now. breaking news. jerry sandusky is talking and defending himself. the disgraced penn state football coach granted his first interview to bob kcostas. the interview is tonight on "rock center." this is "the ed show." let's get to work. >> how did it all start. >> basically because i'm a frustrated playground director i guess. >> explosive new allegations about the judge who granted jerry sandusky's bail. and another alleged victim of sexual abuse has come forward. john feinstein of the "washington post" and "ring of fire" radio host and attorney

mike papantonio are here with the latest. >> you're an embarrassment to the party. >> i'm sorry you feel that way. >> why don't you get out before you make a bigger fool of ourself? >> that embarrassment is leading in the polls. "salon's" sue walsh is here on the rebirth of newt. >> you're the first domino. >> yep, this is our moment. tonight, wisconsin voters get their moment. john nichols of "the nation" is here for a countdown to the walker recall effort. >> i'm really t'd off that the public school system doesn't teach history anymore. >> bill o'reilly has historians t'd off. it turned out bill o.'s new book on lincoln has some problems with the facts. >> i want to remind you not to make statements you can't back up on this network. good to have you with us tonight, folks. alleged child rapist jerry s sandusky is defending himself

claiming he's not a pedophile. and mike mcquery who might have stopped a 2002 incident now claims he did. in an interview with bob costas yo for "rock center," sandusky said, i'm innocent of these charges. i could say i've done some of those things, i've horsed around with the kids, i've showered after workouts. i have hugged them and i have touched their legs without intent of sexual conduct. sandusky said. when costas asked him if he had done anything wrong, sandusky said, i shouldn't have showered with those kids. another huge development tonight, an e-mail obtained by nbc news, mike mcquery, who's an assistant coach now at penn state on administrative leave wrote to friends and former teammates, i did the right thing, you guys know me. the truth is not out there fully. i didn't just turn and run. i made sure it stopped. i had to make quick, tough decisions. there's more. today the judge in the case is

coming under big-time scrutiny. pennsylvania district judge lessee dutchcot has done charity work for the second mile charity founded by sandusky. charity works is common for the -- charity work is common for judges, but the appearance of a possible conflict of interest is a problem. and it doesn't end there. judge dutchot and her husband donated money to the second mile charity in 2009. in 2007, the board chairman of second mile, roger stone, hosted a fund-raiser for dutchot for her campaign for district judge according to records of the committee to elect leslie dutchot. state representative mike verb of pennsylvania said i'm sending off a letter to chief justice to the supreme court of pennsylvania to look at the reports that are out there. and if, in fact, this district judge has a conflict of

interest. when jerry sandusky was brought before the judge dutchot on 40 counts related to sexual abuse of children, prosecutors requested $500,000 bail in an electronic leg monitoring system. but judge dutchot freed sandusky on $100,000 unsecured bail. no leg monitor. sandusky's preliminary hearing is set for december 7th. attorney general linda kelly has said more charges are possible. in an interview from 1987, sandusky talked about the second mile charity he founded. >> how did it all start? >> basically because i'm a frustrated playground director i guess. i enjoy being around children. i enjoy their enthusiasm. i just have a good time with them. i really enjoy the personal contact. i get a lot of personal contact in my life through my family, through our athletes. everybody needs people to care

for them. sometimes they don't want it. sometimes they don't understand what you're trying to do, but they want to be disciplined. one of the biggest things would be the trust that would be developed. what we're trying to be is what we think to be of as a true friend. >> a ninth victim has come forward according to the lieutenant who heads the criminal investigation. the man is now in his 20s and knew sandusky through the second mile charity. the long list of people who might have stopped jerry sandusky keeps growing. the ceo of the second mile charity, jack raykovitz has resigned. he was head of the charity for the past 28 years. second mile was notified by penn state officials in 2002 after a horrifying shower incident. raykovitz said he was only told an employee was uncomfortable seeing sandusky in the shower with a boy. raykovitz did not notify police. in 2005 or 2006, according to the grand jury report, another victim met sandusky through the second mile charity. sandusky continued to have

access to children from the second mile until 2008 when he notified the board he was being investigated. this fits the same unforgivable pattern we have seen in this case. time and time, people in positions of authority and leadership had an opportunity to do more. they didn't. and more children were allegedly victimized. over the weekend, president obama gave his opinion on the scandal. >> what happened at penn state indicates that at a certain point, folks start thinking about systems and institutions and don't think about individuals. when you think about how vulnerable kids are, for the alleged facts of that case to have taken place and for folks not to immediately say nothing

else matters, except making sure those kids are protected, that's a problem. >> get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question, should the judge have recused herself from sandusky's case? text "a" for yes, text "b" for no to 622639 and go to our new blog at ed.msnbc.com. i'll have the results later on in the show. let's bring in mike papantonio, attorney, and the host of the radio show "ring of fire." good to have you with us tonight. your response to those comments by sandusky in the interview. he's defending himself, saying that he is not a pedophile. what do you make of it? >> he's looking at 400 years, ed. he's building his case in the media. we see it time and time again these days. look, this is the problem with people doing nothing. had they done what they were supposed to do, there'd be evidence. you have a whole procedure that you use in a rape case. now it comes down to his word against any children who might come forward.

some children may decide they don't want to come forward. they're 20, 23, 24 years old, they may say, i don't want to do this. so the problem here is he's building his case because he's looking at 400 years, and you know what, his game is to say, there's really no physical evidence, there's some eyewitness testimony, i can overcome the eyewitness testimony. he's fighting for his life. he knows if he goes to prison for 400 years, he's going to be the victim in a sexual encounter. i have to tell you something, as this thing builds, you're going to continue to see him spinning his case in the media. >> mike mcquery, the assistant football coach, is saying now that he stopped the shower incident. in an e-mail to his friends. what about that? i mean, does that conflict with the grand jury report? >> completely. it completely conflicts with the grand jury report. and you're going to see these fine changes taking place right now. look, the -- at the end of the process, he didn't call the police. that's what anybody, any responsible adult would have

done. he didn't do that. the grand jury looked at this. they questioned him. they had all the facts. they never said that he tried to interrupt this encounter. they never said he did anything honorable. it called his daddy and talked to joe paterno. what we're going to see, ed, we're going to see fine spins to all this. as you see the fine spin, what you're actually seeing is something that's going to be presented in a defense. >> all right. mike, let's talk about the judge. does the judge in your opinion have a conflict of interest, and have you ever seen anything like this? such a close association? i mean, we're talking about political fund-raising, we're talking about someone who has worked for the charity. obviously she must know sandusky. what's your take on this? have you ever seen anything like this? >> it's not even a close call, ed. she had the duty to recuse herself. under the law there's a concept that says if there's the appearance of the judge doing something wrong, the appearance of impropriety, she has the duty to say, look, there are half a

dozen other judges who can hear this, let me bring them in, let them be the ftrier of fact here >> what do you make of the fact he is free and unmonitored on 40 felony accounts? >> well, what she did is she freed a, right now the only thing we know, all the way back to '98, is we have a sexual predator. and in her mind, she thought it was more important to do whatever's going to please her personally rather than doing something as simple as putting a gps monitor on. this man lives right next to an elementary school. his backyard backs up to an elementary school playground. she knows those facts. the prosecutors told her those facts. the prosecutors went through everything. they did what they were supposed to do. they fought for the right thing and that is to put him in jail, $500,000, certainly secured. and at the very least, put a gps monitor on the man. >> should there be bail guidelines just as there are often sentencing guidelines?

>> they can -- look, they can have a uniform act, ed, that protects children. the uniform act says that under no circumstances can you let a guy like this out. the federal government has the right to come up with some uniform rules and it's time they do that. as a matter of fact, it's a shame pennsylvania didn't have some uniform rules like that. some states do. >> mike, good to have you with us tonight. mike papantonio. attorney, and also host of the "ring of fire" radio show. the fallout from penn state and joe paterno continues. six different advertisers pulled their ads from saturday's game according to the "wall street journal." one media buyer told the "journal" i'm advising my clients to move out of the games for the short term. the big 10 is removing joe paterno's name from the trophy given to the winner of the championship game. the victims, themselves, are torn over the effect their courage is having on penn state's football program. let's turn to sports commentator

and writer john feinstein. john, good to have you with us tonight. also the author of the upcoming book "one-on-one: behind the scenes with the greats in the game." what do you make of sandusky's denial so early in all this? >> i don't look at it from a legal standpoint, ed, the way mike does. i think he's 100% right that he is obviously going to try to spin as much as he can, because what has he got to lose at this point? in the minds of the public, he's guilty. there's a complete difference between innocent until proven guilty in a court, and innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion. in the court of public opinion, he's already guilty. so he might as well go on with bob costas and say, hey, i was just horsing around. anybody who buys that story, honestly, i know legally he's innocent until proven guilty, but anybody who buys that story, ed, i've got oceanfront land in nebraska i'd like to show him tomorrow morning. >> what's your reaction to the

e-mail from the assistant football coach, mike mcquery? i mean, e-mails get out. he should have known they get out. is this a strategy, you think? do you expect him or others to try to defend their actions? >> well, again, i don't know mike mcquery personally, but i think you're right. we all know e-mails do get out. when you put something in writing nowadays, it's not going to say secret. maybe he didn't want it to be secret. maybe -- i'm sure he's read and heard all the people saying, why didn't he stop it? why didn't he do something? why did he run out of the building? the way his grand jury testimony would indicate he did. so now he's trying to say to people he cares about, his friends, look, it's not the way it sounds. i did more than the grand jury report says i did. again, as mike said, it's he said/he said, so we really don't know and i'm not sure we ever will know exactly what happened in that building that night. >> and mike, your reaction to

the game being played on saturday, money over $300,000 has been raised for children who have experienced child abuse, penn state seems to be trying to do the right thing. now that the game was played, do you still think it was the right thing to do? >> were you speaking -- you said mike. i thought you'd gone back to mike. i'm sorry. >> john. >> i think, yes, as i said to you last week, i think playing the game, i think trying to raise money, trying to use some of the money that came into the school for the game, for kids who have been sexually abused, is absolutely the right thing to do. they weren't going to call the game off. realistically. i thought the way the penn state players handled themselves when they came out of that tunnel hit the right note. and what i mean by that is if they were just coming out there to win one for coach joe, they'd have come charging out of that tunnel. they didn't do that. they understood this was not your typical football saturday. that a tragedy has occurred here. and i think they were respectful

of that, even though clearly this has effected their lives, too, and i think if they can use the money for a charity group, if they can raise awareness and if penn state can begin to say, we know this was wrong, rather than the reaction we saw last wednesday night on campus, then that's progress. >> john feinstein, thank you for your time tonight. i appreciate it. coming up -- >> my pleasure. >> -- jerry sandusky defends himself for the first time. we have an exclusive clip of bob cast center interview." so you'd come out in one piece like those muffins up there. look i gotta go. pam helps you like pull it off guaranteed. look i gotta go. ♪ sen♪ co-signed her credit card - "buy books, not beer!" ♪ ♪ut the second at she shut the door ♪ ♪ girl started blowing up their credit score ♪ ♪ she bought a pizza party for the whole dorm floor ♪ ♪ hundred pounds of makeup at the makeup store ♪

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coming up, jerry sandusky's first interview since the penn state scandal broke. bob costas interviewed the disgraced coach for nbc's "rock center" tonight. the full interview airs on that show at 10:00 p.m. we'll have an exclusive preview next. and economic growth. north america actually has

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breaking news tonight on the penn state child sexual abuse case. nbc's "rock center" obtained an interview with jerry sandusky and his lawyer just a short time ago. we now have an excerpt of the interview that was conducted by bob costas. >> mr. sandusky, there's a 40-count indictment, the grand jury report contains specific detail. there are multiple accusers. multiple eyewitnesss to various aspects of the abuse. a reasonable person says where there's this much smoke, there must be plenty of fire. what do you say? >> i say that i am innocent of those charges. >> innocent? completely innocent and falsely accused in every aspect?

>> well, i could say that, you know, i have done some of those things. i have horsed around with kids. i have showered after workouts. i have hugged them and i have touched their leg. without intent of sexual contact. >> the entire interview can be seen on "rock center" with brian williams tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern and pacific and 9:00 p.m. central. let's bring back mike papantonio. mike, is jerry sandusky hurting himself by doing an interview like this? >> it's the only thing he can do. he's not going to take the stand, anyway, ed, when it comes down to it, so he has nothing to lose. looking at 400 years. costas was smart going back to the essence of where this all started and that's the grand jury report. this isn't speculation, ed. these are grand jurors who heard testimony. they had whatever physical

evidence there was which was probably very, very little at best. the point is, they heard testimony. they had witnesses. so at this point, to believe him based on the fact that you've got all of this time that's passed with a grand jury looking at the fact and making these conclusi conclusions. the first page of it talks about witness testimony where he performed oral sex on victim number one. the next page talks about witness testimony, witness testimony on almost every page here. he has a big thing to overcome. to answer your question, he has everything to lose, and at this point we know in a trial he will never take the stand. impossible. so why not go ahead and play it out in the media? that's the best he's going to be able to do. >> he says that he's done some things without intent of sexual contact. how is that going to play for his defense? you held up the testimony there that conflicts with what he's saying in the bob costas

interview. >> intent comes up when there's a questionable issue, when there's a close call. there's to close call when you have eyewitnesss saying there was oral sex taking place or he was fondling the child. that intent issue comes up with there's a close call with evidence that's not clear. again, like costas focused on, this grand jury statement of facts is compelling. it's almost difficult to read, ed. it's so compelling. because of the fact -- >> is jerry sandusky trying to win over the crowd, so to speak? i mean, there's a tremendous amount of love from fans toward the penn state football program. this guy's been around that community for a long, long time. is this about winning in the public arena as much as anything else? >> ed, he can win in the public arena. at best what sandusky is going to be able to accomplish is maybe do something for penn state and make it not look so bad for penn state. when it comes down to that courtroom, when the jury sits and listen to the facts, all this spin doesn't do him a bit of good.

it might say, in the long run, i guess it could maybe save penn state money over the millions of dollars they're going to have to pay. the truth is, this is all about his last-ditch effort to save his legacy, which is at this point not existent. >> costas asked the lawyer why he came out today. he said it was important that sandusky get his side of the story out and they're just trying to play this out in the court of public opinion. obviously that's what's happening. that's my opinion. if you were defending sandusky, is this a move you would have made? >> no. not at all. there's no reason to do this. all he can do right now is this. he can count on the fact that sandusky's best shot here is to say there's no physical evidence, because the people that should have reported him were cowards and had they done what they should have done, we would have physical evidence. it's very's easy to find physical evidence in a rape case. >> doesn't he somewhat run a risk? the victims are going to hear and see this interview. this could motivate them to

really come forward. i mean, other victims that are out there. what about that? >> that's right. every time he's in the public domain talking about this, i remember last week, ed, you asked me what should paterno do? i said paterno should keep his mouth shut. because every time these people make a statement, they make the victims that much angrier. they look at what's happened. they know the lie. they become angry. they may say at one point i'm going to pass on this because i don't want to go through it. when they hear this guy standing up there, sitting up there lying, it does motivate them to take action. >> mike papantonio, thank you your staying with us tonight. we want to remind you to watch the entire interview with jerry sandusky and his attorney conducted by bob costas coming up on nbc's "rock center" with brian williams at 10:00 p.m. eastern and pacific and 9:00 p.m. central. michele bachmann is bellyaching about airtime during the debate. the minnesota congresswoman gets equal time in "psycho talk" next. in less than four hours, the people of wisconsin will start

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and in "psycho talk" tonight, congresswoman michele bachmann is accusing cbs move of media bias for not asking her enough questions during the gop debate over the weekend. but just a couple of months ago, bachmann wases prea preaching ae free market determining who gets to speak. >> whether it's net knew

trailly, or whether it's the fairness doctrine, are we really going to go down the road where the federal government will decide who gets speech and who doesn't? >> so michele bachmann wants the marketplace to decide. in this case, the marketplace has decided. she's at 5% in the polls. it seems to me cbs was exercising the free market. making a decision that maybe people didn't want to hear her answers seeing that she's so low rated in the polls. even the south carolina republican party who hosted the debate disagrees with bachmann on this one. a spokesman said, "congresswoman michele bachmann seemed to receive a fair number of questions and had ample opportunities to answer." furthermore, the marketplace helped bachmann during a debate in august. just before she won the iowa straw poll. bachmann got the most questions out of any candidate. i didn't hear her complain about 2% tim pawlenty not getting enough time. bachmann was more than happy to take full advantage of her status as a rising star at the

time. >> i was at the tip of the spear fighting against the implementation of obama-care. a one-term president. unconstitutional individual mandate. i introduced the light bulb freedom of choice act. i like sarah palin a lot. i sit on the house select committee on intelligence. the congress gave barack obama a blank check for $2.4 trillion. >> well, since august, the tables have turned and the marketplace has determined bachmann belongs in single digits. so for michele bachmann to blame media bias for not getting enough questions is whiney "psycho talk." the cain train, i tell you what, it goes off the tracks. the pizza man is asked about some place called libya. he can't give a straight answer. we've got the unbelievable video next. bill o'reilly's book gets banned at a historical museum. this is a dandy. you're not going to want to miss this one.

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i am for 100%. i think this idea of 99% and 1% is grotesque, european, socialist class warfare baloney. >> there's red meat and there's the new leader in the republican clubhouse for 2012. a fresh poll today shows newt gingrich sitting at the front at 28%. how did that happen? since october, gingrich has surged 13 points while cain is down five points. romney has dropped four. perry is down 8%. it's been a long, very strange trip for newt and the gop. the former speaker announced he was running for president back on may 11th of this year. a few days later, newt was on "meet the press" and referred to congressman paul ryan's plan to privatize medicare as right wing social engineering. charles krauthammer called it a

capital offense and declared gingrich's candidacy over. gingrich had a faith and freedom conference to take his third wife on a luxury cruise which prompted his staff to qu ququi quit. only to decide newt's the best they've got. newt gingrich is all about more money for millionaires and he's a cheap labor conservative. but he is red meat to the tea party and has enough political moxie to work his way through a debate without shooting himself in the foot. joining me now are e.j. dionne, senior fellow of the brookings institute and columnist for the "washington post" and joan walsh, editor at large, salon.com. great to have both of you with us. i want to play this. here's a voter's reaction to newt trashing paul ryaryan's pl

when he was in iowa. >> what you just did to paul ryan is unforgivable. >> i didn't do anything to paul ryan. >> you undercut him and his allies in the house. you're an embarrassment to our party. >> i'm sorry you feel that way. >> get out before you make a bigger fool of yourself. >> joan walsh, how did that turnaround take place? look where newt is today. what do you make of it? >> i think the republican primary is wonderful. it's kind of like a children's t-ball game where everybody gets a chance to win. everybody gets a chance to be in first place for a little while, ed, and it's very nice for all of their egos. you know, newt has not gotten any attention because he's been so far behind in the polls and came out so terribly. if he's going to be the front run er, newt's baggage, he has so much baggage that his baggage has baggage. he's not going to survive a close primary where he's suddenly going to get the full focus, the full spotlight on him. it's not going to happen. >> e.j., what do you make of newt gingrich's surge in the

polls? to 28%. who would have thought this was going to happen? >> who thought the republicans would be so egalitarian, giving absolutely everybody a chance at first place? i mean, what you're seeing is a big chunk of the republican party that just can't get to mitt romney. and they keep looking for someone else. and i was struck in the cbs poll last week that if you put together the 17% undecided and the 14% who said they wanted somebody else, that's 31% for none of these guys. now, cbs doesn't press people, so you get a bigger undecided although i think that's more accurate. but what it says to me is there's still an opening for someone. and i have this odd idea, i know, that there may be room for draft movement. there have been draft write-ins, particularly in new hampshire, a state that's friendly to write-ins and that counts them. and i wrote this in a blog and a prominent conservative wrote me

and, believe me, this person doesn't agree with me very much, he said, that's a great idea and started talking about a draft write-in for jeb bush. so i think there are still a lot of republicans out there looking for somebody. in the meantime, they park with the alternatives to mitt romney and newt's the one right now. >> newt gingrich is benefiting from his competitors making mistakes. he's getting help like this gaffe that was produced by herman cain at an interview on foreign policy. here it is. >> so you agree with president obama on libya, or not? >> okay. libya. president obama supported the uprising, correct? president obama called for the removal of gadhafi. just want to make sure we're talking at the same thing before i say yes, i agree, or no i

didn't agree. i do not agree with the way he handled it for the following reason. no, that's a different one. i got to go back. got all this stuff twirling around in my head. >> the guy has no game. he's not ready for primetime. he doesn't know. if you'd have asked newt gingrich that question, he'd have reeled it off, although he's changed his position on it. the guy, it's like he's afraid to make a mistake. i have to ask you, joan, what's worse, that or the perry gaffe in the gop debate last week? what do you think? >> oh, quite honestly, that is worse. i mean, that is ridiculous. and it's about, you know, crucial foreign policy issue and, i mean, it's just horrifying. >> it's almost as if he wasn't watching the news. >> yeah. it's as though he didn't have a clue and he was rifling through

notes in his head and he was really stuck. i mean, that, you know, he's tanking in the polls, ed. he's really falling fast. and that will be another rock around his neck. i mean, he count san't survive >> in the same interview, cain says he supports collective bargaining, then he was asked a follow-up question. here it is. >> would you favor collective bargaining for federal employees? >> they already have it, don't they? yeah. they already have -- >> no, they don't. >> they have unions. >> they have unions. >> they have unions. okay. >> they don't have the same bargaining -- >> they don't have the same bargaining powers. here, again, collective bargaining, i support, as long as it doesn't create an undue burden on the state, the government, the taxpayer. that's the issue. >> that interview today was conducted with the editorial board of the "milwaukee journal sentinel." how unprepared, e.j., is this

guy? >> i was thinking when i heard that today that in a republican primary you might survive for a while sexual harassment charges. you cannot survive supporting public employee unions. i mean, that was just extraordinary. and it's painful to watch. and i think, you know, watching that footage that you just showed of cain, and watching the footage over and over again of rick perry not being able to remember the third agency he wants to abolish, when people start feeling sorry for you watching the video, that's when you know they're not going to vote for you for president. >> not presidential. >> after ten debates and we still have a bunch more to go, joan walsh, your assessment of the gop field. >> oh, it's just terrible. it's an abomination. it would be very hard to be a republican right now. and, you know, newt, we've got a man who's most famous for serving his wife with divorce papers when she's recovering from cancer surgery. we've got the only speaker in

history who's ever been disciplined by congress on an ethics charge. you know, it's just -- if this is the best -- if this is now the best they can do against mitt romney, that's pathetic. >> e.j., what do you think? >> i think republicans, themselves, aren't happy with this field. i mean, romney keeps surviving because relative to all these other guys, he's competent and knows what he thinks. he may change his mind about it fairly often, but he knows what he wants to say in a debate. and that's why the conventional wisdom is eventually people will have to get to him by default. but i'm still waiting for him to take a big lead in the polls. there is this big resistance to him in the primaries and i wonder what that will say about enthusiasm in the fall if he does get the nomination. >> all i can say is there has to be a lot of iowa farmers out there who are republican scratching their head trying to figure out how's this all going to work out? >> maybe you should enter the republican primary, ed. why not?

>> really, ed. >> me? yeah, right. e.j. dionne, joan walsh, always a pleasure. scott walker is pulling out all stops to save his job, and the recall hasn't even started yet. john nichols coming up with the latest latest, and it is interesting. ♪ ♪ let's go ♪ ♪ ♪ come with me, let's go

♪ ♪ come with me, let's go ♪ ♪ cruise like a norwegian ♪ up next, the countdown to the walker recall. and later, bill o'reilly acts like a pinhead when he writes about a patriot. bill, we're looking out for you right here on "the ed show." so i took my heartburn pill and some antacids. we're having mexican tonight, so another pill then? unless we eat later, then pill later? if i get a snack now, pill now? skip the snack, pill later... late dinner, pill now? aghh i've got heartburn in my head. [ male announcer ] stop the madness of treating frequent heartburn. it's simple with prilosec otc. one pill a day. twenty-four hours. zero heartburn. no heartburn in the first place. great.

welcome back to "the ed show." can wisconsin pull an ohio? well, when the clock strikes midnight in wisconsin tonight, thousands will begin a campaign to recall union busting governor scott walker from office. more than 20,000 people have trained to kick off a petition drive asking for walker's removal. organizers have six days to get 540,000 valuid signatures.

starting tonight, the walker campaign is running $300,000 in television ads throughout the state of the wisconsin. no one should be surprised at walker's aggressive stance. earlier this year, he spoke to a prank caller, pretending to be tea party billionaire david koch. walker said republican governors like himself and john kasich needed to stick to their plan. >> i talk to kasich every day. john's got to stand firm in ohio, i think we do the same thing with rick scott in florida. i think snyder who got a little more support probably could do that in michigan. when you start going down the list, there's a lot of us new governors who got elected to do something big. >> you're the first domino. >> yep. this is our moment. >> joining me now is washington correspondent your "the nation" magazine, john nichols. why do i feel like an oldtime deejay spinning the hits on these tapes that are so priceless? john, great to have you with us tonight.

>> it's good to be with you, ed. >> you know, last week's result in ohio, i mean, does that motivate the folks of wisconsin that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that this stuff can actually happen? what impact is that going to have on the wisconsin recall campaign? >> it has a huge impact, ed. in fact, i was at an interfaith dinner up in appleton, wisconsin, last night and just mentioned the word ohio and everybody started applauding. so people here followed the ohio fight very closely, and it's notable that the governor did as well. governor walker was out the night of the ohio vote claiming that the ohio law was very, very different from wisconsin's. that he is very, very different that john kasich. but the bottom line is, that koch brothers tape you just played reveals that governor walker saw himself really as the quarterback for a nationwide push on this issue and he spoke of talking to governor kasich on a daily basis. so people see the connection. >> we're talking about possibly $70 million coming into the

state of wisconsin to help protect walker's job. how was walker able to fund raise against the recall campaign before it even started? >> well, they kick started the campaign, themselves. hilariously enough, a donor to governor walker filed a bogus recall petition, or recall certification, about a week ago, and that allowed the governor to start collecting unlimited amounts of money. there's a quirk in the law that says if you're targeted for recall, all of the campaign finance limits go up. so the koch brothers could write governor walker a $1 million check or even a $10 million check and the governor is putting the money he's raised already to use. he didn't -- he's not just buying ads. he bought a primetime spot in the middle of the packers/vikings game tonight. that's the most expensive bit of television turf you can buy. >> it certainly is. he has 60 days to get it done.

wisconsini wisconsinites, are they going to pull an ohio? how tough is that going to be? >> ed, i want to remind you, ohio has twice as many people. so getting to 1.3 million would be pretty tough. there are many wisconsinites who talk about getting to 700,000, 800,000, even 1 million signatures. that's a big deal. when the ohioans filed the 1.3 million, that's when everybody knew they had to take that fight seriously. it will be similar in wisconsin. >> and the polls are showing that people do want this recall effort to move forward. and they want walker out. but that margin, i understand, has been narrowed quite a bit. but also, is it a mistake to go after some other republicans? i understand that there are three that are also going to be involved in the recall effort. we're talking about republican senators in the state of wiscons wisconsin, who are in somewhat prom neninently democrats areas. is that correct? >> that's correct.

there are three around the state in chippewa falls, wausau and racine that held seats that were democratic until 2010. all three are union towns. the calculous is going after republicans who voted against collective bargaining in union towns is a pretty good bet. but look, everything that's going on in wisconsin now is really blazed new territory, ed. we have not ever had a recall of a governor. we haven't had all that many recalls of state senators until this year. so it's -- they're blazing a lot of new turf. what's fascinating to me is across wisconsin tonight, at midnight, thousands and thousands of wisconsinites will be up in offices. some of them finishing off with packer parties, others in pajamas, folks having rallies. there's a great energy out there, and people seem to be incredibly excited. i think that excitement's been underestimated by the governor and a lot of his donors. it's definitely there. >> going to be a great story to follow. do the math. 540,000 signatures.

60 days to get it done. it's going to take an intense effort. john nichols of "the nation." always a pleasure. first it was michele bachmann, then it was rick perry. now the republican party's grasp of american history hits a new low. bill o'reilly gets a history lesson. next on "the ed show."

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tonight in our survey i asked, should the judge have recused herself from jerry sandusky's case? 98% of you said yes. 2% of you said no. coming up, bill o'reilly isn't letting facts get in the way of a good story. eric boller, media matters, joins me next. [ adrianna ] when i grill lobster, i make sure

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that's good for our country's energy security and our economy. and finally tonight, if you want a history lesson, bill o'reilly probably isn't the best guy to ask. o'reilly is the co-author, we think, of the new book "killing lincoln." he says he wrote it because he's looking out for the kids. >> i wrote the book for two reasons. number one, i'm really t'd off that the public school system doesn't teach history anymore and the kids don't know what they're doing. >> makes sense, they don't teach anymore, huh? o'reilly was a high school history teacher 30 years ago. reports by historical groups says the book is filled with factual errors. the book says general lee and grant met only once. it provides the wrong date for a fire at ford's theater. it refers to the oval office before it was built, along with

many other errors. the national park service refuses to carry the book in the ford's theater museum bookstore because of the mistakes. it doesn't sound like the book lives up to the high standards of the accuracy of fox news, does it? >> i want to remind you not to make statements you can't back up on this network. we don't do that on this network. other networks do. we don't. >> but i guess it's okay to write them. but o'reilly isn't backing down. today he told "politico" his book is being attacked by enemies. i'm joined tonight by eric boehlert, senior fellow, "media matters." are you surprised o'reilly is defending inaccuracies rather than correcting them? good to have you with us tonight, eric. >> this is the fox news version of u.s. history. safe to say this book will not be used in any schools this year, next year, or 20 years from now. as you mentioned, the parks service looked at it, said it doesn't pass their test. too many errors.

not enough documentation. if that reminds you of a certain show at 8:00 on fox news. it wasn't just the park service, a leading civil war magazine came out with a review and referred to the book as strange fiction. of course, the enemies are after bill o'reilly. apparently enemies are any historians who pick up the book and look at it. >> the civil war society magazine "north and south," the word they used is unreliable. i guess is bill o'reilly saying these historians, these experts, are enemies? >> that's right. anyone who picks up the book is an enemy. again, look, this passes along sort of the fox news approach to world history. to current events. it's whatever bill o'reilly wants it to be, whoever, you know, is behind the chair. he told "newsweek" last month this book took six months to write. he co-wrote it with someone over the phone and e-mails. now it's pretty obvious that's the problem. the book is riddled with errors. he's saying there's only four

mistakes, the park service woman wrote a memo four pages long and says she didn't look at the whole book, there's probably more. again, this is unfortunately, this is what fox news looks like when they expand beyond current events and try to look at u.s. history. >> so how does he correct it? >> how does he correct it? he doubles down. what do they always do at fox news? there's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong. the problem is he's threatening to write more of these books. he said if this history book is successful, he's going to do more like this. i mean, please, bill, do not write a book about the kennedy assassination. whatever you do. >> well, the ford theater gift shop is going to carry the book. so i guess it's all about promotion. but for him to write this book saying because high school history teachers are not teaching the kids, and he has to just come in and set the record straight, i'll tell you what, that is delusional. great to have you with us tonight, eric. appreciate your time. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. listen to me on sirius xm radio channel 127 monday throh