other branches. >> the attorney general and prosecutors and the sheriffs are the last bastion of justice in this country, to your point. >> right. >> a wonderful rant and wonderful to see you. >> ari melber. i'm dylan ratigan. "hardball" with none other than chris mat use right now. freddie and friend. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. leading off tonight, newt and the "l" word, lobbyist. donald trump, michele bachmann, rick perry, herman cain. each lass had his or her chance as the gop flavor of the month. now, here comes newt gingrich. today we learned from bloomberg news that gingrich was paid up to $1.8 million by freddie mac, that quasi-government mortgage company newt himself loves to trash. hired freddie mac officials say

to build bridges of love to republicans bent on destroying freddie. in other words, to lobby.ç welcome to front-runner status, newt. you've been caught. plus, how many blunders can one party take, from rick perry's oops to herman cain's head-scratching on libya, to michele bachmann on, well, almost everything? looking foolish has become the dress code in this republican race, and what does that say about a party that most resembles now a clown car from the best days of barn barnum & bailey. also penn state, what happened when mike mcqueary allegedly saw jerry sandusky molesting a child. he says he left immediately, and now he says he stopped it and called police f.his credibility is questioned, how will that affect the prosecution? it's clear the republicans can't touch the president on foreign policy and its now target is iran, some want to bomb iran. have they even thought what the consequences would be?

finally, which republican candidate said in new hampshire he doesn't care what the rest of the country thinks or fears? that's in the sideshow. we start with newt gingrich. joan wall somebody editor at large for salon.com and david corn is from "mother jones" and an msnbc political analyst. one of the most ridiculous answers at last week's cnbc republican redate. asked about his ties to freddie mac, newt gingrich said they paid him to offer advice as, quote, an historian. let's watch. >> i offered advice, and my advice as an historian when they walked in and said to me we are now making loans to people with no credit history and have no record of paying back anything, but that's what the government wants us to do, i said to them at the time, this is a bubble. this is insane. this is impossible. >> well, it seems like to pay those tiffany bills0he's been business out there for freddie mac. today bloomberg reported that freddie mac executives dispute gingrich's assertion that he warned them about the bubble coming. according to bloomberg, quote, none of the former freddie mac

condition of raid the issue of the housing bubble or was critical of freddie mac's business model. what was gingrich paid to do? according to two former executives, quote, gingrich was asked to build bridges to capitol hill republicans and develop an argument on behalf of the company's public/private structure that would resonate with conservatives seeking to dismantle it. he was expected to provide written material that could be circulated among free market conservatives in congress and in outside organizations. well, the price tag for his services, according to bloomberg was between $1.6 million and $1.8 million over an eight-year span. joan, it seems to me that he's doing what all big shots get paid to do. they get paid to sit in law firms or sit in consulting firms or pr firms, whatever they are called at the time, to basically oversee a lobbying campaign. they are the ones that send the little pawns up on capitol hill to make the contacts. they are the ones that know where the action is, know it will sell and write the talking points.

they are, in fact, running the lobbying campaign. >> well, right, and i think he's trying to make a distinction that lobbying really means just going and talking yourself, button holing a legislature, trading on your connections with your individual congress people but that's really not the whole story, and in fact what he did was trade on his relationships and trade on his status at a great free market person, which he's not, to create these talking parents and to create this campaign to say hands off freddie, and i think it's a ridiculous distinctionç to say that's not lobbying. today i believe he told a reporter it was strategic advice. >> right. >> strategic device from an historian. thanks, newt. what's next? >> he's got to be houdini to get out of this one. he may be houdini here. congressman barney frank, one of my favorites works appeared on martin bashir who said gingrich was a lobbyist. he said a lot worse.

let's listen to barney frank. >> two "l" words, lobbyist and liar, newt gingrich was reprimanded by the house of representatives for lying and this is nonsense he was being paid 1 been the 6 million, maybe more, to talk about history, to talk about the transcontinental railroads. he was clearly there as a lobbyist. he kind of slipped and acknowledged that when he said to justify that large amount of money, after all, i'd been speaker of the house. you don't enhance your academic credentials by having been speaker. what you enhance is your value as a lobbyist. >> i was just thinking, if you work for freddie mac, you must be having a hard time. who should we hire, michael bosnian serb cross, david mccullough, what about our house historian on housing? clearly he's the lobbyist in chief. let me ask you this. >> yeah. >> here's a guy, and here's where it's really evil. i don't want to overstate that until we get to the bottom of this. here's a guy who made a lot of points the last couple of months blasting the democrats, dodd and frank, saying they both ought to

be in prison, basically n.fact, he said that. >> yeah. >> for basically coddling freddie mac. now it turns out he's their chief lobbyist. how can you be that dishonest? >> chris, you've been around the block a few times. this is 100% newt gingrich. this is his çpattern. you come up with a slippery denial about your own behavior while you throw bombs at the other side. even for doing what you yourself have done. just go back to the clinton impeachment crusade. i mean, it's one of the biggest dodges in town to say i'm not a lobbyist. >> you mean carrying on an affair with somebody who works in the house staff below you at the same time you're going after a president for doing something like that in the white house? >> yeah, that comes to mind. >> yeah. >> so he's a serial fibber, and you saw that when he said i was an historian. that is patently absurd. the fact that we even have to parse or analyze that remark for more than a nanosecond shows our political culture is a little bit askew.

he should be laughed out of town. >> okay. >> as he should have been laughed out of town many times in the past few decades. >> let's catch some of his history, we could all be historians on newt. we all remember this. 2008 on "the o'reilly factor" talking about the housing market. he's indicting the democrats for doing what it turns out he was doing himself, looking out for freddie mac's interests. here he is. >> yeah. >> what you have today is that the rich in wall street and the powerful of fannie mae and freddie mac had so many politicians beholden to them, that in fact nobody was going to check them, and so they got away with things that were absolute baloney, and it's a tragedy. >> he's not a human being. he's a gaseous state, isn't he? this is like a gaseous state around the world. i mean, this is newtism. how can you accuse the democrats of the very thing you were paid a couple million bucks to do which is look out for freddie mac? >> i mean, literally, literally listening to that. there's also the clip, i think it was in an october 11 debate, where he actually said who should go to jail.

barney frank should go0to jail and democrats and their relationship with freddie mac, that he can say that knowing that he's taken money, almost $2 million, from freddie mac. i mean, honestly, david, i agree with you. we should have seen this coming, but i find this shocking, and i didn't think i was capable of being shocked by newt. >> i think it's pathological. i mean, i know that's a big word and i'm not trying to hype it here, but you can go through 30 years of his statements and actually we did that at "mother jones" a couple weeks ago. i should put that story back up again on the home page. >> right. >> but you can find examples of this again and again and again. it's not a slipup. this is an m.o., his modus operandi for newt gingrich. i called someone at freddie mac, when the story line first came out, and the guy just started laughing at me. he goes why do you guys even believe or talk about it for a moment? he was paid the same way we paid all politicians, to be in our pocket and make us look good, very simple.

>> you were very effective in ripping the skullcap off the reprimand at one branch of government for speaker of the house, and i think he does pretend to be a candidate for the head of the executive branch. how can you go from being killed off one branch and grabbing on to the other? i don't get it, but i want to remind to something, worse than all the flip flops, let me get to something that's classic newt. remember, joan, when he blamed the democrats for susan smith's kidnapping of her kid. >> yes. >> return to that day. what does that tell you about a politician? he's not a normal politician who does that stuff? >> no, it was just -- it was abominable, unbelievable. this woman, obviously disturbed, first, she lied and said a black man carjacked her and killed her kids. then it was found that she did it herself, adç newt said, he literally said, it was on the east of the '94 mid-terms, that the only way to stop behavior like this was to vote republican.

he said the democrats had created this culture of corruption and law-breaking and families disintegrating, and reporters came back to him and said is that what you're saying? are you really saying republicans can stop that? he said absolutely. >> right. >> so this is, again, the kind of projection. >> with that light motif, with that background, watch this little bit of tape here on his flip flops. let's watch newt, not just flip flops but really his dishonesty. >> i believe all of us, and this is going to be a big debate, i believe all of us have a responsibility to help pay for health care. i think the idea -- >> you agree with mitt romney on this point? >> i agree all of us have a responsibility to pay for health care, and i think there are ways to do it that make most libertarians relatively happy. i've said consistently we ought to have some requirements, ought to have health insurance or post a bond or some way you indicate you will be held accountable. >> it's the individual mandate?

>> that's a variation on it. >> i'm completely opposed to the obamacare mandate for the individual mandate because it's fundamentally wrong, and i believe unconstitutional. >> what would you do about libya in. >> exercise a no-fly zone this evening. the idea that we're confused about a man who has been an anti-american dictator since 1969, just tells you how inept this administration is. very quick to jump on mubarak who was their ally for 30 years, and they are confused about getting rid of gadhafi. this is a moment to get rid of him. do it. i would not have intervened. i think there are a lot of other ways to affectç gadhafi and the are other allies in the region we could have worked with. i would not have used american and european forces. i don't think right wing social engineering is any more desirable than left wing social engineering. i don't think imposing radical change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free society to operate. i made a mistake, and i called paul ryan today, who is a very close personal friend, and i

said that. the fact is that i have supported what ryan is trying to do in the budget. any ad which quotes that i said on sunday is a falsehood because i've said publicly those words were inaccurate and unfortunate. >> david, what we're watching here is not someone who changes his mind, but we're watching a whirling dervish of a dishonesty. he spins and spins and spins depending on the circumstance and the moment and grabs what he thinks is the higher ground in that moment, and he doesn't tell the truth about what he thinks because it's the same person claiming to think two different things in the same moment. how can you believe a word this guy says as he runs for president? >> chris, i think, you know, i've been in town almost as long as you have. if he had to name the most situational politician we've ever covered, newt would certainly be at the top of that list. he's not -- you're right. he's not a flip-flopper. he is a gyrator. following him gets you dizzy. you know, the word spin, you

know, in the dictionary, he should be next to it because he never ever stops. he likes to position himself or depict himself as a grand big thinker, of noble grand big thoughts, but if you actually compare one to the next over the years, you see there's no consistency, and -- and inside it's like hollowness. it's really whatever is going to give him that edge at the ç moment, the advantage. that's what he goes for, and it doesn't matter what he said ten seconds earlier. >> joan, last thought? >> well, i think this will really sink him because he and republicans have succeeded in demonizing freddie mac and making freddie mac into an agent of socialism, so the idea that he took almost $2 million from freddie mac, he's a liar. he's a hypocrite, and i think he's done with the tea party. >> yeah. join the powers that are attacking freddie mac and get paid to defend them. what an unbelievable washington game and now he's been caught. the price of front-runnership, newt. >> exactly. >> thank you joan walsh.

had to have you two here. you two are the best at understanding washington. thank you david corn and joan. from herman cain's brain freeze, a thighs word to it, to rick perry's oops last week, to michele bachmann on just about everything she tries to handle, how many blunders can a political party stand and still stand up? and how damaging to the republican brand name are endless gaffes on everything from the important to the hopeless? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

since ameriprise financial was founded back in 1894, they've been committed to putting clients first. helping generations through tough times. good times. never taking a bailout. there when you need them. helping millions of americans over the centuries. the strength of a global financial leader. the heart of a one-to-one relationship. together for your future. ♪ well, the white house announced that president obama will be heading to new hampshire next week. he's going to talk about his jobs plan, but there's a bigger reason. take a look at the new bloomberg poll. the president is now trailing mitt romney up in new hampshire by ten points, and according to our nbc map, new hampshire is the only state where john kerry won in 2004 that's now leaning republican. of course, kerry and romney are from neighboring massachusetts and that counts, but the president needs to shore up his

support in the granite state. we'll be right back. i've seen this before -- the old "impromptu in-law visit." look at mom whipping up some kraft homestyle mac & cheese. sure it's easy to make, but it looks like she's been busting her hump in the kitchen. [ doorbell rings ] let the fireworks begin. [ male announcer ] kraft macaroni & cheese. you know you love it. ♪ that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm [ male announcer ] for half the calories -- plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

welcome back to "hardball". republican candidates have been the butt of many jokes this year because of the long list of gaffes and awkward moments from the campaign trail. in an article in today's "new york times" entitled "flubs are rubbing some republicans the wrong way" it quotes many republicans who aren't laughing about the multiple missteps and some republicans are asking whether the gaffes may be damagingç the republican brand itself. ed rendell is the former governor of pennsylvania and msnbc political analyst and john furry is a republican strategist. gentlemen, i have to ask you. it used to be that the republicans were the daddy party, if you will, the ones we're going to take care of all the dangers facing the country. we're the experts on foreign policy. don't get in our way, democrats, and now it seems like they are just dicy on the subject. they don't seem to have any expert on foreign policy in the entire list of republicans

running. >> it's true, chris. if i were an independent voter or a moderate republican, my head is spinning, and i'm thinking what in god's name is this party up to? is this the best they have got? but, again, what happens once there's a nominee is people focus not so much on republican and democrat, they focus on the republican nominee versus the president so they will have a time to recoup. what i think the big problem is, let's assume for a second, chris, put yourself in mitt romney's place. you're the nominee going into the convention, what do you do with the wackos at the convention? what do you do with them? >> what raw meat can you throw their way to make you think you're one of them? >> right. how do you put herman cain and rick perry and michele bachmann on the speaking program and hope to win the philadelphia suburbs? >> remember how they used to bring all the other candidates up on the stage after you get the nomination. >> if i were mitt romney. >> this motley crew. would you bring sarah palin up on the stage? would you bring michele bachmann and the whole gang of them up on the stage and say here are my

rivals, my excellent colleagues. here they are together to show you or intellectual force. would you do that, john, or keep them in the closet? >> of course i'd bring them up and strategically place them throughout the program so they would make the maximum amount of news i'd make at the çtime. you do that at any convention to unify the party, and, you know, they speak -- the candidates running for president speak for a lot of different constituencies within the republican party. i would say to the "new york times" piece, it's not the gaffes of a few that define a party. it's the philosophy of many, and the republican party is by and large a conservative party, and we live in a conservative country, and i tell you, when it comes to where most people are on foreign policy, most of the country is far more conservative from a foreign policy standpoint than anybody in washington, in either the democratic or republican party. >> bush had a better record of catching bin laden than obama does, right? >> chris, it's even worse than that. >> well, wait, wait, wait.

this election is not going to be about osama bin laden. >> it's not about terrorism, not about 9/11 anymore. oh, i've got it. >> this election is about the economy. >> i've forgotten we don't care about this. >> look at this so we can actually show the problem area for john. a national security official under george w. bush told the "times," this is the core of the republican brand. you mess with it at your peril. it cuts directly to the essence of the brand republicans should be concerned about this. you don't agree, john, right? >> well, listen, what i think is that, mitt romney or whoever the nominee is going to have the foreign policy establishment, the republican foreign policy establishment behind them, and they are going to support each other, and i think that at the end of the day that brand on foreign policy is going to be just fine. >> you know, the other day, governor, herman cain of all people went up to see apparently henry kissinger. doesn't that show you the gap in what they were and what they are. >> it's enormous. >> and it's a hoot. the idea of those two people

taking up the same office space is unimaginable. your thoughts, governor? >> and the weanlss in john's position is these are the people running for president in the republican party. they are not just some local mayor or some county commissioner or congressman here and there. these are the supposedly the best and the brightest. if i'm in the philadelphia suburbs and i'm a moderate republican, my head is spinning. i'm saying this can't be true. this guy doesn't know about libya. this guy can't remember the departments he wants to get rid of. this guy wants to bomb iran after all we've been through. >> here we go, governor. by the way, even when you the mayor of our great city you read the newspapers. let's listen to some of the more notable blunders by some of the republican candidates as they have gone into the dangerous areas of american history and politics. >> we know there was slavery that was still tolerated when the nation began. we also know that the very founders that wrote those

documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the united states. men like john quincy adams who would not rest until slavery was extinguished in the country. >> would you describe yourself as a ney conservative then? >> i'm not sure what you mean by ney conservative. i'm a conservative yes. ney conservative, labels sometimes will put you in a box. >> you're familiar with the neo-conservative movement? >> i'm fenway park with the conservative movement. >> we've gone from a country that's made great strides in issues of civil rights. i think we all can be proud of that, and as we go forward, america needs to be about freedom. it needs to be freedom from overtaxation and overlitigation and freedom2%uáz overregulatio. >> well, i have to tell you, john, i've go the to give you a shot at this. john quincy adams was 6 years old at the writing of the declaration of the founding documents. he was a brilliant kid, isn't

he? fighting slavery at the age of 6. what is she talking about? the one thing if you're a philly kid, you go down to mt. vernon and see the slave quarters, this is where they lived, they actually had slaves and here's michele bachmann coming along saying, you know, george washington and those guys, they were just killing themselves to get rid of slavery. what is she talking about? >> john quincy adams was a fierce -- was a fierce abolitionist. she was right about john quincy adams. >> which of the founding fathers was fighting slavery, one? >> john adams. thomas jefferson had great concerns about slavery. >> he had slaves. >> of course he did. i get that. >> and george washington had slaves. >> john, i want you to come up to philadelphia. we have something called the president's house. the first residence of george washington when he was president when the capital was in

philadelphia, and there are slave quarters in it. >> i know my history. i also know -- >> anyway, you're smarter than anybody running for president. >> i would vote for you. >> and you should have run for president. this crowd -- this is an upside down world over there. thank you once again for the defense of the ignorant. only one who knows he has a chance to jump start his campaign. he knows he has to win in one place. that's huntsman in new hampshire. the trouble is he says he doesn't need those other 49 states. that's right çthere. that's next in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

♪ ♪ mama said there'd be days like this ♪ ♪ "there'll be days like this," mama said ♪ [ male announcer ] the toughest job on the planet just got a little easier. with one touch technology and even an air scrubber. the nissan quest. innovation for family. innovation for all. get up to $3,050 total savings on the 2011 nissan quest. ♪ ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ for you ♪

[ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. vietnam, 1967. i got mine in iraq, 2003. u.s.a.a. auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation, because it offers a superior level of protection and because u.s.a.a.'s commitment to serve the military, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto insurance quote.

u.s.a.a. we know what it means to serve. back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up is gop candidate jon huntsman putting too much focus on the granite state? high hopes for new hampshire in a few month, but what about the

rest of the country? apparently huntsman got a bit overzealous during his 100th new hampshire event yesterday when discussing the state's importance to his campaign. let's listen. >> this election in new hampshire is critically important, and i have a very small request of you. i just want your vote. now we need some people. we need a little groundswell and this is where we're going to get it in new hampshire. i don't care what the rest of the country thinks or feels, that's not important. i do care about what the people of new hampshire feel because this is important. >> i don't care what the rest of the country, wow. huntsman later said that he was speaking about the polls putting all his marbles on one make-or-break primary. fans of "the good wife" know i made a debut, my only debut on that show. let's take a look at that scene from that episode where alan cummings character, a political consultant out in chicago, gives me a scoop on his candidate, and his candidate's scott skeletons in his closet.

>> you know robert malby? >> the ex-congressman, the one that flipped democrat to republican. hear he's looking for a campaign that can win. >> he represents him. >> and we want to offer you a story. >> really, you got a headline for me, too? >> we've got a picture. it's not as bad as anthony weiner, but in our view it captures the prospect of the facebook candidate. >> that's him, that's robert mulvey. >> it is. you want to hang a lantern on your problem? >> hang a lantern on what, nothing to do with mulvey's policies or morals. >> you want to give me something, give me something. why don't you put the can idate on. up next, the penn state scandal. mike mcqueary, the former graduate assistant coach says he stopped jerry sandusky when he saw him in the showers with the 10-year-old boy back in 2002. he says he also went to the police, but that's not what the grand jury report says. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now.

two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy.

that's good for i've tried it.s energy security but nothing helped me beat my back pain. then i tried salonpas. it's powerful relief that works at the site of pain and lasts up to 12 hours. salonpas. ♪ [ gong ] strawberry banana! [ male announcer ] for a smoothie with real fruit plus veggie nutrition new v8 v-fusion smoothie. could've had a v8.

i'm hampton pearson with your cnbc market wrap. stocks loseing ground. the dow jones industrial average skidding 190 points and the s&p 500 giving up 20 and the nasdaq tumbling 46 point. trading volume so thin they were practically transparent as investors waited for more news out of europe, and oil prices spiked to a six-month high. the u.s. banks slumped late in the session on a fixed report warning the industry could be facing more credit woes unless europe really buckles down on fixing its debt crisis. oil prices topped $102 a barrel for the first time since july on plans to reverse a midwest pipeline to alleviate a supply glut in oklahoma. abercrombie & fitch tumbled after a huge earnings miss that

it blamed on aggressive but temporary promotional sales. and chip-maker mike ron bucked the trend after a big surge after winning a multi-billion dollar lawsuit. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." do you have any idea when you think you might be ready to talk in. >> this process has to play out. i just don't have anything else to say. >> okay. >> and then just one last thing. just describe your emotions right now? >> all over the place, just kind of shaken. >> crazy? >> crazy. >> you said what, like a what had. >> snow globe. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was penn state coach mike mcquearyç talking to cbs news yesterday. according to the grand jury

report when mcqueary witnessed a 10-year-old boy being subjected to anal sex by jerry san ducky he left the scene and called his father, not police. mcqueary e-mailed a friend last week to say yes, he did stop the attack and yes, he did call authorities. the e-mail reads, quote, i did stop it, not physically, but made sure it was stopped when i left that locker room. i did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police. no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30 to 45 seconds. trust me. but did he call police in the grand jury report says penn state university police never questioned him and that his superiors didn't contact authorities or the town of state college itself police. they told nbc news today they have no record of mcqueary speaking to them, and the pennsylvania state police won't comment due to the ongoing investigation so no campus cop discussions, no town cop discussions, and no word on any state police discussions, so for more on this and the key witness

who may have a credibility problem, let me bring in nbc's top investigative reporter, that's michael isikoff, who is at penn state itself and bud bisinger who writes for "the daily beast." let's go to mike right now for the reporting. has this guy lost his credibility because of his odd statement here about having gone to the cops and having stopped that, well, in effect it's a rape, if not legally that's the right term, penetration of this kid by this guy? do we have any new reason to question mcqueary now one way or the other? >> well, there's certainly about mcqueary, but it's important to remember there were going to be questions from mcqueary from the get-go, even if you take the grand jury report as gospel and that that is actually everything that mcqueary testified to. he still has the problem of he says he witnessed a 10-year-old boy being sexually sexually

assaulted in the shower, and according to the grand jury report he left immediately distraught. he did not intervene to stop a criminal act against a young boy taking place in realtime. so i think that, you know, clearly the discrepancies and contradictions between what he says and what schultz and curley, the two university officials say, the ones charged in this case, but even without this e-mail, there were going to be a lot of questions about mike mcqueary and his -- and his actions here, and -- and it's also worth pointing out, chris, that, you know, there was supposed to be a -- a preliminary hearing tomorrow in this case, and it was the government, the prosecutors, that asked for the delay, not the defense. in fact, the defense for curley and schultz say they are outraged by the delay. they are ready to proceed, and it's the government that's asking for the delay. that does sound a bit unusual. >> you know, the scary thing

here, mike and now buzz, the graphic nature of what we were told in the grand jury, a naked 10-year-old boy up against a wall with a grownup behind him having sex with him, just -- i mean, pen traiting him. it's an unimaginable scene, and here is mcqueary saying something quite human for once. he says imagine being in my shoes for 30 to 45 seconds. i mean, it was jes, the moment he looked and probably looked away. he didn't stop anything in 30 to 45 seconds. he didn't seem to call the police in 30 to 45 second. it looked like he turned his eyes away from a horrible scene and didn't know what to do, did nothing really. go ahead, buzz? >> you know, look, i have no doubt that mcqueary saw a rape, absolutely no doubt. would i bet my life on the lives of the children that jerry sandusky did what he's alleged to have done. i believe that more than ever on the basis of his interview in which i think he came across as arrogant and despicable, but

whenever a witness has credibility problems, and the prosecution -- someone should have been with that guy 24 hours a day saying, mike, you don't talk to anybody. you don't e-mail anybody because if you do, there's going to be a credibility issue, and we all know what defense attorneys are paid for, to drive a truck through credibility issues. it just waters down the case. i believe that mcqueery is telling the truth, but it doesn't help because frankly all the charges against the victims are serious. there are four that are not that serious. there are four that are serious. you have mcqueary who was an eyewitness to one. the eyewitness to the other has dementia, so he's not going to testify. >> okay. >> the tragedy is to have a male eyewitness to a sexual assault is very, very rare and important, and -- and i don't want mcqueary to blow it with these e-mails and talking to people. >> you think he did it on purpose to screw up his credibility so he couldn't be getting san dusky in trouble?

maybe that's too much of a stretch, but it look like he's done that. >> i -- i don't think he did it on purpose. i think he'sç scared. i think he doesn't know which way to turn. i think -- well, he felt a lot of shame. >> sure. >> the nation came down on him, including me, and i think he felt a lot of shame, and he reached out to friends and he said, look, you don't know what happened, but it is diametrically opposed to the grand jury report. he says he stopped it, and the grand jury report he says it became immediately distraught and left. he says he called the police, contacted the police. grand jury report says that didn't happen. the university official he spoke to was schultz who is in charge of the police. that washes out, but there are diametrically opposed stories. >> right. >> and we know what happens. defense attorneys make millions to show that. >> i just want to point out that on the -- on the charge against curley and schultz, it's a perjury charge, and it rests on

the credibility of mcqueary as opposed to schultz and curley, so, you know, these credibility issues, regardless of what you think about sandusky right now and the likelihood or not that he committed the act that he's alleged to have committed, for the prosecution to sustain the charges against curley and schultz, they have to -- to present mcqueary as a credible witness, and to have these e-mails out there contradicting his sworn testimony and coming after his grand jury testimony, that's a real problem. >> yeah, but a grownup jury, i hate to put that much faith in a jury, a jury can distinguish between a guy telling the truth about someone else's horrible misbehavior, a felony, and doing something that makes himself look better. a jury can understand mñ mike, can't they and why you're honest about one thing and dishonest about another? >> i'm not saying the case is -- is completely destroyed here,

but i'm just saying this presents serious problems, and it's also worth pointing out one other problem about the 2002 incident for the prosecution's point of view. they don't have the 10-year-old boy. they have not been able to identify who it was. >> no. >> who was -- who was allegedly being assaulted here. >> wow. >> and -- and that's a real -- that's a real problem. remember, sandusky's lawyer says we think we found the kid, and we think he's going to be able to come forward and say this never happened. it didn't happen in the way it's being described in the grand jury report, and if the prosecutors don't have the -- the boy who was allegedly -- who was allegedly sexually assaulted, that's another problem for their case. >> wow. >> so also, there's the court of public opinion, and i think most people would agree jerry sandusky hung himself in the court of public opinion, but there's still a court of law, and as you look at it, at least on the charges of the 2002 incident, there's problems. >> thank you, michael.

buzz, so great to have you on, one of the great reporters of our time. up next, the republicans running for president can't touch president obama on foreign policy because of his success in getting terrorists, but maybe that's why many of them are talking about a new war, attacking iran, with an act of war. that's ahead. this is "hardball," only on msnbc.

a newly discovered audio tape from aboard air force one should shed new lights on what happened in the movements after john general's assassination in dallas. the tape found in the estate of kennedy's military aide general ted clifton includes more than 30 minutes of never-before-heard material, including discussions about where kennedy's body would be taken for autopsy. according to the associated press, the tape is on sale for half a million dollars, though copies will be made for the archives, and the kennedy presidential library. by the way, tonight i'll be on "the colbert report" to talk

about my book "jack kennedy: elusive hero" talking about the morning he was killed why dallas was so angrily right wing. we'll be right back. smal l bu sinesses are the smal lifeblood of our communities. on november 26th you can make a huge impact by shopping small on small business saturday. one purchase. one purchase is all it takes. so, pick your favorite local business... and join the movement. i pledge to shop small at big top candy shop. allen's boots... at juno baby store. make the pledge to shop small. please. shop small on small business saturday. our machines help identify early stages of cancer, and it's something that we're extremely proud of.

you see someone who is saved because of this technology, you know that the things that you do in your life matter. if i did have an opportunity to meet a cancer survivor, i'm sure i could take something positive away from that. [ jocelyn ] my name is jocelyn. and i'm a cancer survivor. [ woman ] i had cancer. i have no evidence of disease now. [ woman #2 ] i would love to meet the people that made the machines. i had such an amazing group of doctors and nurses, it would just make such a complete picture of why i'm sitting here today. ♪ [ man ] from the moment we walk in the front door, just to see me -- not as a cancer patient, but as a person that had been helped by their work, i was just blown away. life's been good to me. i feel like one of the luckiest guys in the world. ♪ i feel lii heard they found the luckiest guys ienergy here. it's good. we need the jobs. [customer:] we need to protect the environment.

[worker:] we could do both. is that possible? [announcer:] at conocophillips, we're helping power america's economy with cleaner, affordable natural gas. more jobs. less emissions. a good answer for everyone. well, if it's cleaner and affordable. as long as we keep these safe. there you go. thanks. [announcer:] conocophillips. e welcome back to "hardball." saturday night's republican presidential debate the candidates made it clear that iran's attempt to build a nuclear weapon as an opening to attack president obama. let listen to mitt romney. >> the president should have built credible threat of military action and made it very clear that the united states of america issing in the final analysis, if necessary, to take military action to keep iran from having a nuclear weapon. look, one thing you can know, and that is if we re-elect

barack obama, iran will have a nuclear weapon, and if we elect mitt romney, if you elect me as the next president, they will not have a nuclear weapon. >> what is mitt romney talking about? has he or the any other republicans thought about an attack on another muslim coun y country? what's fascinating, robin, and you know the region, that in israel we had a poll on the other night that show the people of israel most endangered obviously by an iranian military weapon, a nuclear weapon, because obviously ahmadinejad, to the extent he has any power in that country has threatened them with it, and they are clearly on the road to doing something with nuclear material, probably building a weapon, according to theç internationa nuclear nuclear commission, atomic energy economic. here's my question, robin. if the israeli people are 50/50 on whether to attack iran, how can mitt romney be 100% before elected that that's the way to

go? >> cbs just did a poll a week ago and found 55% of americans believe diplomacy was the way out and only 15% of americans thought that iran is a military threat today. so i'm not not sure it reflectst american sentiment, but the reality is mitt romney talked about generalities, a military option that both the obama administer and the bush administration before it have left on the table. he offered no specifics about what are you going to do? specifically about our experience over the past ten years, and the fact that the military is not at all enthusiastic about a military option on iran, and is concerned that this is not just a one-stripe deal to eliminate some suspected facilities, but might actually have long-term repercussions that haunt the united states in many places in the middle east and beyond. >> we are still calling it the department of defense, aren't we? we don't call it the department

of war, do you? don't you have to build case for u.s. interests -- not that we don't have an interest in israel, but isn't the -- can we just attack another country that's a -- i'm sorry, i forgot we did it twice. go ahead. >> i great completely. this is where the possession is deeply concerned, what happens in the aftermath, and what threats do you then have to begin defending against as well, because çiran, whether it's through its allies, hezbollah in lebanon, allies in iraq, other factions in the region, begin to take actions that that you also have to build up your forces for, this is much more complicated than mitt romney made it sound. >> steve, i think the israeli people are trying to figure out the consequences of any action, even if highly successful in surgically removing the atomic threat from iran for maybe 4, 5, whatever years. they're not stupid. romney seems to be here.

he's not a stupid man, but stupidly making an assertion that we're going to do something without even weighing the consequences with a national security team. your thoughts? >> i think he's trying to turn something that shouldn't be a black-and-why binary choice into one, the recently retired head of the mossad in israel came out publicly and said an overt act like this would be so against israel's interests. so what we see is romney and other of the candidates in the gop in that debate pandering and fearmongers and trying to commit the united states on a course that's so utterly disruptive. i wish the department of defense was called the department of strategy. what i keep waiting to here is a vision of where they think the united states needs to go. is this a knee-jerk reactive view, and what romney is doing is renewed unilateralism, this

pug nationals damn the rest of the world unilateralism, that they think sells with the american public, but it's very, very dangerous to have this kind of commentary out there. urc two kinds of success -- initial and ultimate. would that be an ultimately successful policy to go with iran, go to war, because attacking them would be an act of war? stinchts this is a much more complicated question. the fact is how much knowledge does iran have already? we don't know the answer to that, but if they are at a point that many people fear, there is a danger that even a military strike would not eliminate the knowledge that they have accumulated at this point. remember that the shah want -- so the dynamics in terms of how this plays out are not a -- >> thank you so much.

it has a pride aspect to it. i think that's part of the thing. robin wright, steve clemmons, thank you for the expertise we need it. when we return, let me finish by what i believe is the recklessness that romney is showing. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. premier of the packed bag. you know organization is key... and so is having a trusted assistant. and you...rent from national.

because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above and still pay the mid-size price. here we are... [ male announcer ] and there you go, business pro. there you go. go national. go like a pro. like a ramen noodle- every-night budget. she thought allstate car insurance was out of her reach. until she heard about the value plan. shop less. get more. make one call to an allstate agent. ♪ small talk, big thoughts, gonna tell them all ♪ [ male announcer ] the most headroom per dollar of any car in america. from $10,990. the all-new nissan versa sedan. innovation upsized. innovation for all. ♪ ♪ small talk, big thoughts, gonna tell them all ♪ [ male announcer ] the most legroom per dollar of any car in america. from $10,990. the all-new nissan versa sedan. innovation upsized. innovation for all.

♪ innovation upsized. innovation for all. ♪ sen♪ co-signed her credit card - "buy books, not beer!" ♪ ♪ut the second at she shut the door ♪ ♪ girl started blowing up their credit score ♪ ♪ she bought a pizza party for the whole dorm floor ♪ ♪ hundred pounds of makeup at the makeup store ♪ ♪ and a ticket down to spring break in mexico ♪ ♪ but her folks didn't know 'cause her folks didn't go ♪ ♪ to free-credit-score-dot-com hard times for daddy and mom. ♪ v.o.: offer applies with enrollment in freecreditscore.com and these come together, one thing you can depend on is that these will come together. delicious and wholesome. some combinations were just meant to be. tomato soup from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

let me finish tonight with

this. it's one thing to be completely ig north, when he acts as if he -- all lodged sloppily in his staff-induced memory. add the two toes, the ignorance and an embarrassing display of confusion over another, it's clear this guy, herman cain will never get the okay from the american people to be its leader in the world. let me put to you a moreç dangerous case. suppose we had a kennedy who threatened a new war before elected, so randy to be elected he's willing to threaten an act of war as a bid for political success. i have give you mitt romney, who says if you elect me, he's proposed an act of war again, presumably an attack of nuclear facilities. you may like that proposition. it may come to a day, but there's a candidate -- here's a

candidate for leader of this country promising that iran will not get a many nuclear smoch weapon. i have to wonder at this. has romney calculated the fallout to a u.s. supported attack on iran? we know this, it would be an act of war, put in the hands of those leading iran an act of war. will they attack american interests, rally the muslim world against us? these are no small things to consider. you can bet the israeli people are considering them, because the people most exposed to an iranian nuclear weapon are evenly divided on whether to support an attack. they the people most exposed are in a quandary whether to commit an act of war. not romney. he's speaking even before getting to the policy. he's telling israel and the arab world what he is personally commit to do. this is dangerous