>> have we left anything out in the final seven seconds re? >> all of the candidates fantastic. we've left some of them out, but we'll discover their secrets later. >> jeff chrysler, ladies and gentlemen. what a week in cheating. >> too much. >> that'll do it for us. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball's" up right now. casino jack nails newt. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in philadelphia. leading off tonight, when jack abramoff calls someone corrupt, take note. it didn't take long for newt gingrich to get himself into another ethical mess. his latest shoot himself in the foot moment, demonizing democrats for helping fannie mae and freddie mac at the same time that he was taking nearly $2 million from freddie to advise it on winning over republican conservatives on capitol hill. barney frank, who wrote the

rules to regulate wall street, and whom gingrich sweetly said should go to jail, joins us tonight for a must-see interview on newt's serial hypocrisy. plus, a distorting lie. desperate to save his dying campaign, rick perry along with other republicans has reverted to a distortion so obvious it should whack 'em like a bo boomerang. we'll go to the videotape to show the distorting lie and what the president said. and bad news for mitt romney, who's peddling the empty case that his mechanic bill bears no resemblance to president obama. but an m.i.t. professor says, there's no way to say that, because they're the same blanking bill. jonathan gruber goes on to say that, quote, mitt is just lying, and that may not be the worst news for mitt romney today. and we now know more about jerry sandusky, how allegedly he chose his victims, as pert exp

put it, groomed them for his purposes. and let me finish with what appears to be the exasperation of both of the country's most alive political moments. the tea party and the occupy wall street movement. we start with newt gingrich's hypocrisy. one of gingrich's sharpest critics has been democratic congressman barney frank, who joins me now. congressman frank, it just seems to me that this is getting more crazy, this defense by newt gingrich. paid a couple of millions of dollars to apparently persuade conservative republicans that freddie mac is a great organization, members of congress on capitol hill. he's saying that that is not lobbying. >> well, he's just lying. it is, of course, lobbying. and again, he slipped when he was defending the fee, although he says he can't remember how much. because he said, well, after all, i'm a former speaker of the house. well, that's an important credential if you're hiring a lobbyist. as i understand it, it doesn't get you tenure at the yale history department.

having been a former speaker has never been considered an academic credential. the fact is that what he's -- this is really symptomatic of the republicans' effort to kind of blame us for their mistakes, which you see, of course, with the effort to blame obama for what he inherited from george bush. here's the basic point. fannie mae and freddie mac went unregulated for the 12 years during which the republicans controlled the congress. they ran it from 1995 to 2006. chris dodd and i were in the minority. and people who think i was secretly advising tom delay on what to do, i got to tell you, if i'd made a list of things i wanted -- well, first newt gingrich and then tom delay, i've said this before. if tom delay was taking my advice during the period when i was in the minority, bill clinton wouldn't have been impeached, we wouldn't have gone to war in iraq, and he wouldn't have gone on the dance show. he didn't accept my advice on any of those issues. now, gingrich is clearly there when they are refusing to do any

reform. read hank paulson's book. paulson says, bush's secretary of the treasury, in 2006 when he became secretary, he talked to me, i was then in the minority, but it looked like the democrats might take over. he said, accurately, he said to me, can we do something about fannie mae and freddie mac if you guys are in the majority? i said, yes, because i had earlier thought they were okay. by 2004 and 2005 w, i realized had been wrong and he was too optimistic. in 2007, when i first became the chairman, we passed the bill to control fannie mae and freddie mac. and in fact, senator dodd and i got the legislation through, and as a result of the legislation that was ultimately signed in 2008, frannie mae and freddie mc were put in a conservatorship and now are not losing any new money. they were old losses. so, yes, during the period when newt gingrich was first the speaker and then a republican lobbyist, there were no regulations. but i was very impressed with how well he was doing, because he said that he doesn't remember

how much money he got. now, if you don't remember what a single client gave you when it was more than $1.5 million five years ago, then things must have been pretty lucrative. >> yeah. well, here's gingrich today with a new theme for the afternoon, arguing he never peddled his influence on behalf of freddie mac. let's listen to the speaker, former speaker, as of late this afternoon. >> i did no lobbying of any kind. i did no influence peddling of any kind. but the truth is, if you have the reputation -- and i'm not going to use the words, because they'll distort them and take them out of context. if you just take what people say about me in the debates and say to yourself, gee, is that a person somebody might have hired for advice? you know, i think it's hard to argue that they should have hired someone that was truly dumb. so i'm happy to tell you, i have been a very successful business -- i'm not as successful as mitt. >> well, he's coming off there as charles van dorn or somebody. somebody you just hire because

of their uniquely high iq. >> well, i would say this. he is clearly the highest paid historian in american history. people complain if you go into the humanities, you don't make as much money, but this may do a lot for that career path. it's just nonsense! advice about what? if it was advice about what kind of policies to follow, he was very critical of those policies. again, i'm just struck by his ability to say things that clearly make no sense. and he also, i gather he said the money wasn't paid to him. that was his other -- >> oh, yeah, that dodge. >> it was paid to the gingrich group, not him. frankly, i thought the gingrich group were his wives. >> congressman, you're not aware of the new lingo, which is coming from mitt romney, which is, corporations are people too. >> that's right. >> anyway, here's an interesting reaction to the latest news. lobbyist jack abramoff, who's back for reclamation, he went to

jail for 3 1/2 years on conspiracy and -- >> chris, don't you mean historian jack abramoff? >> here he is with david gregory yesterday in a taping. abramoff admits he crossed the line and acted illegally. which is a good start for saying something. he says he wants to sound the alarm about the corruption in our system. on that note, gregory asked him about newt's ties to freddie mac. let's listen to this interesting, witness, if you will, what he said. >> this is exactly what i'm talking about. people who come to washington, who have public service, and they cash in on it, and they use their public service and their access to make money. and unfortunately, newt gingrich is one of them who's done it. he's engaged in the exact kind of corruption that america disdains. the very things that anger the tea party movement and the occupy wall street movement and everybody who's not in a movement and watches washington and says, why are these guys getting all this money? why did they go become so rich? why do they have these

advantages? unfortunately, newt seems to have played right into that. >> you call that corruption? that's a heavy charge. >> well, what is it? it is corruption. >> there he is, casino jack, sharing the guilt for his lifetime. let me ask you congressman frank if you can explain as a respected legislator, and i mean this, the way they hire big shots, big feet who come out of congress or politics generally, they put them in these big law firms or consulting firms and they don't actually come to the hill and lobby in a sense of waiting for you folks outside of the chamber, but they basically are directing their traffic. can you explain how that works for these guys? >> well, sure. first of all, you have the knowledge of how things works. you know these people. remember, gingrich had been the speaker and left congress -- actually, he had got dreciven o by the way he mishandled things, for engaging in activity that was less flagrant than newt was engaging in at the same time. but you know these people, people who are running the congress eight years later, these are people who served in

leadership with him. tom delay, dennis hastert, his successor. the leaders of the committee. so you know these people. secondly, you don't have to come and stand in the hall to talk to people. you can call them up. you can meet them at other events. there are all sorts of meetings that people have. so, no, it doesn't mean you stand outside the door, but you give people advice about how to deal with these individuals, and then you talk to them. it is inconceivable to me that there weren't conversations between newt gingrich or his aides. that's the other way people work. he was the speaker. people are used to dealing with someone's aides. he said it was the gingrich group. there were people working with him. they go there and say, gee, newt thinks this and newt thinks that. it's so clear. and this effort to blame us. the republicans were in charge. newt gingrich as four years as speaker and for eight years after that, the people he helped put in the leadership. they were the ones who had control over whether or not there was any regulation of

fannie mae and freddie mac. now we know that people say it should have been regulated. i was originally wrong on that. i came around by 2004. but it was 2006, a couple years after i was trying to get them regulated that newt was getting close to $2 million or over $1.5 million. and the notion he was getting it for advice simply, if that's the case, the shareholders should have sued them for corporate waste. >> and he wasn't out there writing op-ed pieces or writing about the need for reform? he says that's what he was thinking? >> what he was doing was helping to form late the doctrine home ownership. and by the way, i was one of those who said, yes, i want to help low-income people get homes, but primarily rental housing. i've always thought they overdone the home ownership thing. in fact, what the republicans generally did was to cut back our efforts to provide good

rental housing for people and push them in ownership. he acknowledges he was part of this effort for home ownership, who let people who shouldn't have gotten the loans ask for them. >> that the heart of it. yesterday, newt's opponent, michele bachmann, was quick to jump on this story. here's what she said. let's watch. >> whether former speaker former gingrich made $300,000 or whether he made $2 million, the point is is that he took money to also influence senior republicans to be favorable toward fannie and freddie. while he was taking that money, i was fighting against fannie and freddie. >> well, i guess she's not expecting to be nominating him for president next september in tampa. >> or serving in his cabinet. but let me say to make this very clear, it was not until, and i know people got kind of -- read henry paulson's book, the

secretary of treasury. it wasn't until the democrats the took over in 2007 that legislation was passed to restrain fannie and freddie. newt was very successful. as long as the republicans were there, nothing happened. there were disputes among the republicans, between bush and chairman mike oxley and the chairman shelby in the senate. but we worked with hank paulson, and as a result, we got a bill passed in the house in 2007, in the senate in 2008. paulson then put them into receivership. and the man who now runs fannie mae and freddie mac, who is no friend of the democrats, obama tried to fire him and the senate saved him. he says since the legislation that we passed, the democrats in 2008, went into effect, there have been no further losses incurred by fannie mae and freddie mac. they have been profitable since then. the losses come from the period when republicans were in control and blocked any legislation. >> great to have you on, congressman barney frank of massachusetts, thanks for having you on. coming up, republicans are twisting president obama's words, i'd say worse than that,

i'd say lying about it. he didn't call americans lazy, the real "l" word here is liar, and it refers to the ad man who wrote this ad for rick perry. we'll see you what the president said and what they're distorting about it to the point of lying. you're you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ you, you ain't alone ♪ and just let me be [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ your ticket home

♪ [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. ♪ that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm [ male announcer ] for half the calories -- plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. this week in wisconsin, the campaign to recall republican governor scott walker got underway. and right now, according to a new poll from wisconsin public radio, wisconsin voters are on board with the recall. 58% of wisconsin voters say governor walker should be removed from office. first it was just 38% who say he should stay. democrats open the unpopularity of walker along with john kasich and rick scott could give president obama an edge in those three critical states. we'll be right back. [ cellphone rings ]

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welcome back to "hardball." republicans have a new attack line against president obama, by distorting his own words. listen to this latest ad from the perry campaign. >> we've been a little bit lazy, i think, over the last couple of decades. >> can you believe that? that's what our president thinks is wrong with america, that americans are lazy? that's pathetic. obama's socialist policies are bankrupting america. we must stop him now. i'm rick perry. i approve this message. >> the problem with quoting the president calling the country is lazy is a flat lie. assist lie. here's what the president actually said speaking last saturday. listen to his words and then decide for yourself whether he was saying americas are lazy or u.s. corporations seeking investment for overseas have been lazy in keeping up with the competition. >> i think it's important to remember that the united states

is still the largest recipient of foreign investment in the world and there are a lot of things that make foreign investors see the u.s. as a great opportunity. our stability, our openness, our innovative free market culture. but, you know, we've been a little bit lazy, i think, over the last couple of decades. we've kind of taken for advantage that people will want to come here. and we aren't out there hungry selling america, and trying to attract new businesses into america. >> you have to go to the bottom of the ocean to find something that low. that's nothing -- what perry put in that ad about the president saying americans are lazy has nothing to do what you just heard there. michael steele is the former chairman of the republican national committee and a republican strategist. and michael feldman is a democratic strategist. i want to start with michael feldman on this. michael, i've seen some distorting ads before. this one beats them. >> yeah, i mean, he used the word. the word to describe this is

pathetic. and when he talks about lazy, this is a guy -- rick perry had a shot at the nomination, had a real shot at least contesting mitt romney for the nomination. and lazy is a way to describe his campaign. he doesn't prepare for the debates. he can't name the three organizations he wants to eliminate. this is a desperate ploy. this guy is trying to appeal to a small subsection of the republican party and trying to revive his campaign with these attacks and was called out on it today. >> let me go to michael steele. who's going to believe the fact that the president of the united states called the american people lazy? who's going to believe that anybody did say something like that? >> a lot of people do believe. you say potato, i say potato. i don't know why we're sitting here acting so surprised that a snippet from a sound bite that the president gave is cut into a commercial. you think that's bad? wait until we get to the summer of twel2012. what you take between -- any of the guys or gals on our stage on the republican side have said is

taken out of context versus what the president has said that's taken out of context, that's the nature of political commercials and ads and tv. so i don't know where the big deal is here? >> well, let me ask you, do you think that's an honest portrayal of what the president said in any way? >> this is not about honesty, being honest, in the sense that you want to be, you know, sort of altruistic about this, chris. this is hard-core raw politics. and, you know, it's like when i made my comment about afghanistan a year ago as chairman, the dnc took those comments and snipped together a nice little web ad and ran it. so, you know, that's what happens when you put a camera on someone and you take their stream of thought or consciousness and you snip it together to create the image and impression you want for purely political purposes. >> so even though he's not -- so even though he's not talking about like a malaise speech about the american morale or the american inability to compete with foreigners, he's simply talking about american corporations have got to get out

there and hustle in order to attract investment to this country, you say that's fair game? you say it's fair? >> chris, that was not wholly clear from the entire clip that you played, that he was identifying corporations as being -- he should have said that, then, if that's what he meant. when the sentence starts, "we have been lazy," and the "we," that pronoun doesn't identify a noun, then, yeah, you leave it open to interpretation. >> okay. let's re-run it again. let's take a look at the actual presidential words there. >> yeah, go ahead. >> talking to aipac, two ceos, by the way, talking to american ceos. let's talk to this. >> i think it's important to remember that the united states is still the largest recipient of foreign investment in the world. >> yep. >> and there are a lot of things that make foreign investors see the u.s. as a great opportunity. our stability, our openness, our innovative free market culture. but, you know, we've been a

little bit lazy, i think, over the last couple of decades. we've kind of taken for granted, you know, people will want to come here, and we aren't out there hungry, selling america, and trying to attract new businesses into america. >> so the effort by american trade groups to go over there and try to encourage investment in america somehow reflects on the general american character? you think that's the statement the president said? >> chris, that's not wholly clear from the clip. he started off that section you played with "the united states" is the operative subject of that conversation. and then he goes to "we have been lazy," so you make the connection, the united states, we have been lazy. and that's all -- i mean, that's the way the president framed it. so you can interpret it anyway you want. >> okay. let's go back. here's the "national journal," it fact he cans the republicans today. the "national journal" is pretty darn nonpartisan, i think we would all agree. he said those words were distorted. "obama used the word lazy to

describe american business practices in a conversation about attracting foreign investments on saturday at the asian pacific economic cooperation summit. his audience was a group of ceos, but some republican presidential candidates would have you believe that he was talking to individuals about their character." so was he speaking about the american character, michael feldman? >> no, of course not. it was very clear from the conte context. look, this is an act of desperation. none of the other candidates took this whack. >> well, i hate to tell you romney did. you're a little too generous. >> i was going to say. >> no, you're not right, he's too generous in assert the republicans are cleaner on this. it's not just perry, here's mitt romney using the same line of attack against the president at an event earlier this week. >> sometimes i just don't think that president obama understands america. now, i say that because this week or was it last week, he said that americans are lazy. i don't think that describes america. before that, i think it was in

october, he was saying that we have lost our inventiveness and our ambition. and before that, he was saying other disparaging things about america. he was saying that we just weren't working hard enough. >> there you go, patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel. there he is trying to put the old malaise will label on a democrat. this is classic republican. you know what's going on here, chris. michael steele, you know the game that's being played here. >> it's never happened before now. the democrats have never in the annals of modern politics ever run a commercial that's clipped together out of context something that george bush or any republican candidate for office has said. this is the first time this has ever happened. i'm shocked. >> you know, michael -- michael, you remind me of my uncle bill. he was a plumber and a good guy, but every time he heard about somebody left their wife for somebody else or stole some money, he'd say, you know, it's like everything else.

that's what you sound like. you sound my uncle bill. >> this is politics! come on! you like to speak with lamb brag doe doeshya about the way jack kennedy operated, and it's very clear in your book, he used the tools of politics to convey the message to the base, and ultimately to the nation that he needed to convey to win. this is no different than 1960. >> sir, you're getting into the area of sacrilege and i'll have to shut you up. i'm just kidding. let me go to mike feldman. let's talk politics now. can the republicans pay for this? will the president be able to come out -- does he have the tools to turn this against them like a boomerang? can he catch them in what looks to be a distortion? >> sure. they did today. by the way, the campaign was working very hard today to make sure people had the facts on this. many major news organizations came out and actually played this in context today. >> can they force rick perry to pull it back? can they force mitt romney to pull it back?

because if they don't, you can argue they didn't lose on this. they at least gained some points on this, republicans. >> i would be surprised if they followed this line of attack anyfoany further after the beating they took on this today. they were called out. >> that's not exactly a victory for the ds. thank you, michael steele, you may be right, about how bad of shape we are in. anyway, thank you, michael feldman, if lying is just okay. >> it's not lying, chris! come on, man, you know it's not lying. >> don't try to interpret me. i think this is a hell of a distortion. anyway, herman cain didn't know china had nukes, he didn't know about neoconservatives, and he couldn't remember what happened to libya today. now he's added to that sorry resume. that's coming up next in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪

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first up, shut down. yesterday gop candidate rick perry challenged minority leader nancy pelosi to a debate. on his plan to completely overhaul washington. well, pelosi rsvp'd to the invite today, and as it turns out, she won't be in town. but listen to just how she turned down the next governor. >> well, he did ask if i could debate here in washington on monday, it is my understanding that such a letter has come in. monday i'm going to be in portland in the morning. i'm going to be visiting some of our labs in california in the afternoon. that's two. i can't remember what the third thing is i'm going to be doing. >> well, i'd call that a rejection. anyway, next up, playing to the crowd, or at least that. what gop candidate herman cain was going for during a campaign appearance in front of a large population of cuban-americans in miami yesterday. >> now, i know we have a lot of small business people here.

now, let me tell you how nue nueve-nueve-nueve helps the small business person. >> he beefed up his language skills. later in the day, he needed some assistance. >> 11. low-fat? how do you say delicious in cuban? >> mr. cain -- >> right, what language do they speak in cuba again? cuban. >> last night i was on "the colbert report" to talk about my book. after discussing john f. kennedy's heroism during world war ii, steven let me know what he was really curious about when it comes to the book. let's listen. >> so he won world war ii. that part we've established. but why do you say jack kennedy:

elusive hero. everybody knows who this guy is. his face is on the 50 cent piece. >> his wife said he was that unforgettable elusive hero. he lived his life in compartments. he lived one life with his wife, with his irish mafia, with his elite social buddies. everything was a compartment >> who's the next kennedy? is it gingrich? >>hah! no! >> he always comes out with something wild like that, and something ridiculous, of course. thanks again to the colbert report, that's the name of the show, for having me on. up next, the penn state scandal, new reports about how jerry sandusky allegedly, quote -- this will sicken you -- groomed his victims. the latest on the investigation coming up next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. sure it's a melt in your mouth kind of experience. [ john ] the wood fires up the grill a little bit hotter so you really get a good sear and it locks in the juices.

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i'm hampton pearson with your cnbc market wrap. a sharp sell-off starting around midday, leaving stocks deep in the red. the dow jones industrials tumbling 134 points. the s&p 500 shedding 20. the nasdaq giving up 51 points. looks like the focus may be shifting from europe back to capitol hill, with growing concerns about a lack of progress from the deficit-cutting super committee, which isn't to say europe isn't still weighing on the markets, as spanish bond yields neared 7% today. and italy's new government unveiled a plan aimed at dragging it back from the brink of economic collapse. so just a sea of red on the nasdaq, weighed down by ongoing supply disruptions overseas. and an earnings report from sears showing weaker than expected demand for gadgets. even boeing couldn't buck the trend.

despite taking its largest order ever, $21.7 billion for 230 jet from indonesia's lion air. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." can you explain what's going on for you and your family right now? >> i can't go into detail, but i think it will work out. i think it's obvious i tried to do the right thing. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's penn state assistant coach mike mcqueary again answering questions today about the events he allegedly witnessed in a shower between jerry sandusky and a young boy back in 2002. details continue to emerge in this case. "the new york times" reports it was an interpret posting that led mcqueary last year about that attack. for the latest, i'm joined by michael isikoff, up in state

college, pennsylvania, right now, and kathleen kane, an attorney, who's currently running for pennsylvania attorney general. first to mike. what's new in this case today? >> reporter: well, more lawyers saying they've got more victims who have come forward of jerry sandusky. it's very hard to verify this at this point. obviously, all the publicity has brought in a flood of phone calls to that hotline, and a flood of phone calls to lawyers who are representing victims and who want to represent victims. but right now, we've got a couple of lawyers come forward just in the last two days, one today, saying they are representing new victims in the case, who have gone to authorities, who are being vetted by authorities. no new charges have been filed against sandusky, so i think we've got to be a little cautious at this point, but that is another indication of how

fast moving and expanding the case is. we also have these new reports, interesting story from "the new york times" today, about the origin of the investigation. one aspect of that, which i can confirm is that some of the records from the second mile that were subpoenaed by investigators are missing. they haven't been able to come up with them. that does raise questions. were records removed relating to jerry sandusky's travels and expenses that might verify some of these allegations? we don't know yet. all we know is that some records are missing. and yet another -- by the way, i should add that the second mile has launched its own investigation into all of this. you put it all together with the san antonio police investigating the alamo, the department of education investigating whether penn state broke the law. penn state investigating, and of course, the attorney general of pennsylvania investigation, you've got five investigations going of this sex abuse scandal

right now. >> let's go to kathleen kane on this one. "the new york times" today outlined an alleged patte to th. "sandusky engag on what experts on child predators call grooming behavior. law enforcement officials asserted this month, making his first approach when children were 8 to 12 years old. he tended to choose white boys from homes where there was no father or some difficulty in the family, investigators said. and he drew them in with trips to games and expensive gifts like computers." kathleen, tell me about this grooming. are you familiar with this, where a guy picks out a target for sexual abuse? in this case, some horrible abuse. >> yes. every trained child abuse investigator knows about grooming. it's a very common technique among sexual predators. and what it is is they start first by gifts, they move, then into familiarity with the child, saying, you know, they know their favorite color or their favorite teacher or certain problems that they may be having

with someone else at school, then they move into the most heinous phase, which a zone of trust. they basically isolate the child. they make the child feel like no one else, they can't trust no one else, no one else loves them, no one else cares for them like their attacker, and no one else understands them like the way that they do. now the child is blocked off and basically backed into a corner where that child feels like he has no way out. and there's no one to go to, except consequently enough, their attacker. >> and then they use another pattern, where people like sandusky apparently find ways of putting the focus on the victim rather than their own behavior. here he is describing what he says happened in the shower that night that mcqueary walked in on them during that horrible, at least alleged horrible act going on. let's listen. >> okay. we were showering and horsing around and he actually turned all the showers on and was

actually sliding across the floor and we were, as i recall, possibly like snapping a towel and horseplay. >> okay. what do you make of that, kathleen? >> well, again, they always turn it back on to the child. number one, that the -- no one's going to believe the child, because the child is untrustworthy. but as soon as i heard that interview with bob costas, immediately what runs through any mother's or father's mind is they're picturing now this child sliding across a slippery bathroom floor. my next thought, is, oh, my god, the child's going to fall and bang his head, and why is he doing something like that, he knows that he shouldn't be doing? and that's exactly what the predator is trying to make us do. he's trying to make us put it all back on to the victim and say, that victim shouldn't have been doing those actions, and my god, you know, here's sandusky is ready to save him from falling into the shower and banging his head.

but it's a classic technique. it always comes down into a trial, whether the defendant is telling the truth or whether the victim is telling the truth. and the defendant, the predator counts on us saying, that that child, by the mere nature of being a child is untrustworthy, is bad, will never tell the truth. and here he is as an adult in standing within the university or within his community, and by god, he's the one who will always be telling the truth. it's -- i have seen -- i've prosecuted hundreds of child abuse cases, and i've seen it almost in every single case where the defendant, the child predator, turns it back on to the child. >> i don't know how practice criminal law on the other side, how they defend that, blaming the kid an of this apparently horrible incident. thank you, michael isikoff, thank you, kathleen kane. great having both of you on. anyway, up next, mitt romney wants you to think his health care law is nothing like president obama's. but now the m.i.t. adviser who

advised both romney and the president says romney's full of, these are exactly the same plans. i'm up here in philadelphia for the father and son dinner tonight at my alma mater. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ and just let me be [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ your ticket home ♪ [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. [ male announcer ] this is zales, smal l bu the diamond store. sinesses are theuncer ] this is zales, smal lifeblood of our communities. on november 26th you can make a huge impact by shopping small on small business saturday. one purchase. one purchase is all it takes. so, pick your favorite local business... and join the movement. i pledge to shop small at big top candy shop. allen's boots... at juno baby store. make the pledge to shop small. please. shop small on small business saturday.

♪ [ gong ] strawberry banana! [ male announcer ] for a smoothie with real fruit plus veggie nutrition new v8 v-fusion smoothie. could've had a v8. so much for building. republicans in congress are on the verge of killing president obama's plan to build high-speed rail lines around the country. the house votes today and the senate tomorrow on a measure that eliminates any funding specifically for high-speed trains. the president called for $8 billion this year and $53 billion over six years, but republicans have long complained that the plan was too costly. now republicans say they want to focus on high-speed rail in the northeast only, not the national network the president envisioned. we'll be right back. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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you just don't have credibility, mitt, when it comes to repealing obama care. your plan was the basis for obama care. your consultants helped obama craft obama care. and to say that you're going to repeal it, you just have no track record on that that we can trust you that you're going to do that. >> so the question is credibility, rick santorum says. this is "hardball." again, that was presidential candidate rick santorum, as i said, taking a hard swipe at mitt romney for hypocrisy on health care. and today in the publication "new york capital," jonathan gruber, an m.i.t. professor, whose ideas made up mitt romney's massachusetts health care overall haul, and who helped to create obama's health care overhaul, said romney's attempts to distinguish between his health care plan and obama's are dishonest. "they're the same blanking bill.

he just can't have his cake and eat it too. basically, you know, it's the same bill. he can try to draw distinctions and stuff, but he's just layi . laying." and a new bloomberg poll of republican primary caucusgoers in ohio shows the track record of mitt romney as a flip-flopper has traction. ron reagan is a republican commentator. let me go to ed rollins on this. ed, we have new polls out that basically confirm the argument put out. here's the bloomberg poll of likely iowa republican caucusgoers. it shows that voters consider romney qualified to be president, but 48%, just about half, say he will do or say anything to win. and 47% say the same thing. he's a flip-flopper. same thing in new hampshire among likely primary voters. again, a huge majority, 81% say qualified to be president. but among those who trust him to

be a good president, 43% say he'll do or say anything to win. 43%, the same number, says he's a flip-flopper. so creeping towards 50% republican voters in both yankee, new hampshire and christian conservative iowa, both believe the guy can't be trusted to stick to a position. your view, ed rollins? >> my view is he was badly damaged both in the senate race before he got elected governor, you know, running in massachusetts, he ran as a very, very moderate republican, took a lot of positions that obviously people in new hampshire know about. obviously, in a tough race last time that he lost in iowa in the caucus. a lot of the stuff came out. i think he's been pretty stable in this election and not flip-flopping much at all but he is going to basically take a lot of heat on romney care. and i don't think, you know, the president himself said he based his policy on romney care and someone like howard dean that knows a lot about it has said it many times to me, we're both

teachers at the university. he's got to live with it. >> let's go to ron reagan on this. i think it comes down to this. can you predict this man's position on anything but what predicting the future polls will hold? in other words, will he simply track the future polls on any given issue in the republican camp? >> that's what it seems. it's fair i guess to say he was damaged in his senate campaigns and his gubernatorial term in massachusetts but if he was damaged by that he damaged himself. simply by revealing what he presumably felt at the time about issues like global warming and choice and gay rights and things all of which he has flip flopped on now that he is running for president in the republican party. this is an extraordinary event we have here watching this republican party. most republicans don't really like mitt romney but they're resigning themselves to the fact that he's going to be their nominee because everybody else in the field is frankly just

impossible. >> ha. ed, let me go to that. how many voters in your party tend to vote strategically, vote for the guy or woman they believe can win the general election whether they prefer that person or not? >> more so this time. usually there is an ideological bent and some single issues that people vote on but in this particular case we want to beat obama. i think most people at this point in time, ron represents a view that i don't disagree with, that we think that romney may end up being the strongest candidate against obama and certainly some polls show that. it's not over yet. voters haven't cast any votes but at the end of the day i think a lot of people, conservatives in particular, will basically swallow hard and support him enthusiastically. >> down in tampa next september when you have your convention you may be there as an observer, whatever role you'll play. you're probably an analyst. will they get excited in that hot house environment with the humidity way up and the temperature? will they get out and scream for mitt romney? is that feasible? >> not in the same way that they would for some of the other candidates. you know, mike huckabee would

have run, they'd have been very enthused about him and would have been a very interesting race. at the end of the day they weren't enthused about john mccain early in the process last time. >> or bob dole. >> or bob dole. by the end he was the nominee. you know, everybody is looking for your father's reincarnation and, you know, we all know -- >> we don't see it there do we? >> well, we all see how he was a great president but he's bigger than life today and that's a shoutout that very few people can stand in. >> ron reagan jr., three republican candidates in a row. george herbert walker bush, bob dole, and cain. not one of them they liked. why don't they just do it again, a fourth guy in a row they don't like? >> well, they will. i mean, romney is going to be the nominee. this is incredible. you know, ed is right. the republican voters are saying, look. he's the guy that can run against obama and maybe win. so we should try and get this guy in. but what's the big -- you know, for the republicans now it's obama care, obama's health care

plan, creeping communism. but romney's plan is the same. >> i got you. we got witnesses tonight. thank you. we had one witness tonight. thank you, ed rollins. when we return let me finish with the exasperation in this country with the two most vibrant political movements. the tea party if you will and certainly occupy wall street. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. your core competency is...competency. and you...rent from national. because only national

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let me finish tonight with this. we're looking now at what

appears to be the exasperation of the country's most alive political movements. the tea party and occupy wall street. exasperation. it's when a felt need, a passion even fails to be satisfied. it's when you want something and can't get it. like in the song. can't get no -- can't get no -- satisfaction. i'm speaking here with dead seriousness about forces that appear to be deadly serious. the one on the right that gained tremendous and proven force the summer before last and in the fall elections a year ago and in td occupy wall street movement that has replicate todayself across the country. one movement the tea party stands to -- totally incompetent i would say in selecting a leader, someone fit to run for president. they ain't got one. no, no, no, they ain't got one. they looked at trump yes trump and bachmann, perry, and cain and they're dailying with newt. not a real leader in sight. if you look across the months to the summer of last year they never have and that tells you something about the negativity of their cause. they are against and that is not

enough to lead this country. the occupy wall street movement has had a different failure. in some way worse in some way not. they can't come up with a clear voice, a clear statement that put the focus where it belongs. wall street. well they've been in sync with the country on where to go. they put the blame on wall street. more to the point to the clout wall street has in our government in washington. even as the occupiers are being pushed from their encampments they fail to speak out in clear terms what they want done and that is a deadly failure. demonstrators need to tell us what we need to do. i may surprise some people with this but both of the movements right as well as left had a point, a good point to make. both of them. government is spending too much money. if you mean it's spending more than people are willing to finance in taxes, it's spending 25% of our economy. taxing just 15%. it would seem to most people that 25 number we spend is almost, almost as out of whack as the 15% in taxes. occupy certainly has a great point to make. both parties rely too much o