>> did yyou did to me. i'm being harassed by my own man. we have a special surprise for you coming up on on "morning jo" guess who's back. "morning joe" starts right now. governor huntsman, do you agree with governor romney that the u.s. has to stay in agaanistan at these levels? >> no, i totally disagree. i think we need to square with the american people about what we've achieved. we need an honest conversation in this country about the sacrifices that have been made over nearly ten years. we haven't done a very good job defining and articulating what the end point is in afghanistan. i think the american people are getting very tired about where we find ourselves today. >> are you suggesting, governor, that we take all our troops out next week? what's your proposal? >> did you hear what i just said? we should draw down from 100,000. we don't need 100,000 troops, many of whom can't cross the wire. we need a presence on the ground

that is more akin to 10,000 to 15,000. that will serve our interests in terms of intelligence gathering -- >> i stand with the commanders in this regard and have no information that suggests pulling our troops out faster than that would do anything but put at great peril the extraordinary sacrifices. this is not time for america to cut and run. >> but at the end of the day, the president of the united states is commander in chief. commander in chief. of course you're going to listen to the generals. but i also remember when people listened to the generals in 1967 and we heard a certain course of action in southeast asia didn't serve our interests very well. >> oh, wow, who's that. >> who was that? >> good morning, everybody, welcome to "morning joe." and who is that? it's wednesday, november 23rd. with us onset, dan senor. >> hi, tina, how are you? >> in washington, we have the congressional correspondent for the national journal major g

garrett. and next to me, joe's back. how do you feel? >> got beaten up for calling in yesterday. so i thought i'd actually come in. >> show up. >> i let people beat me up in "trson. >> no. >> but i get another five-day vacation. >> are you better? >> you know i hate talking about myself. >> it's not your style. >> it's not me. it's just not -- i want to talk about other people. i want to talk about the kids. i want to talk about congress -- >> while you were gone, everything was just fine here. it was perfect. >> seriously -- one morning i called willie up. >> why? >> and i said, who is the adjunct professor because everybody here -- we had katrina and we had -- >> donny. >> katrina and donny. you get them together and i was just e-mailing willie and saying, okay, so is this being actually sponsored by the carl

marx youth of -- >> i was trying to bring different voices to the table. >> yeah, left, far left, socialist, marxist. >> you had nothing to worry about. >> it was great. but i really enjoyed a couple days ago. >> okay. >> what was that? >> what do you mean? >> nothing, it was crazy. the debate, huntsman -- tina, huntsman showed up and he was mad. he was fighting. that was a new guy. >> that was a new guy. if only he could take a time machine back to the days of the rockefeller republican era, he would be a winner. but he is actually beginning to look very well informed. i do think new hampshire is a place he could make up this comeback -- well, he could actually launch himself finally. >> well, we actually have a bet. >> we do. >> dan senor and i have a bet. >> prime grill kosher steak. >> and that bet is what?

>> i do not think huntsman will ever exceed his space right now in theç republican field. he's at about 2% in the polls, i don't think he'll catch on. >> you don't think he'll do better in new hampshire? >> might do a little better. >> he's not going to break out -- >> the bet was -- i just want to be clear on what the bet was. >> will he stay in single digits in new hampshire? >> yes. >> he'll stay in single digits? >> and won't finish top three. >> i want to double down. our entire families -- >> have you been to prime grill? the steaks aren't cheap and my boys are eaters. >> i don't care. you're saying he's going to be held to single digits in new hampshire. and no better than third in new hampshire. >> and here's why. do you want to know why? i'm tasting that prime grill steak. >> i know you're wrong. >> all right. >> that's like saying why is alabama going to lose to arkansas -- i don't need to talk to you i know you're wrong. let's run another huntsman clip.

>> and then -- >> this is what's absurd. this is what's absurd. he's at 2% of the polls and got 40% of the air time last night. it's an amazing thing. >> here's what's great. we're going to do this and then we're going to debate and then we've got mitt talking amnesty and we've got michele bauchmann had her best debate. >> she sits on the house intelligence committee. >> pakistan answer was extremely -- >> oh, my lord, she turned and schooled rick perry. >> that was a good moment. >> between that and jimmy fallon. >> it was -- >> newt was a shining star last night. >> yeah, if you like losing. he's going down. >> he may be going down, but he was good last night. >> do you think he'll do better than huntsman in new hampshire? >> absolutely not. you want to triple your -- >> no. >> we're going to get to you.

>> as we talk about foreign policy, let's be reminded that in order to have an effective foreign policy, we need a washington that works. today we have a president who can't lead. we have a congress that can't even figure out how to balance our budget. they need term limits, by the way. we've got to get our house in order -- thank you. we've got to get our house in order if we're going to expect to get anything done overseas. >> so he and mitt were going back and forth. >> that i thought was really interesting the split screen between the two of them. >> you know the biggest shock. newt gingrich who is seriously -- he can't stand being in front. because the second he's in first place -- >> he vomits all over himself. >> he starts looking for the -- where did i put that? because i want to strap it on me. >> you love newt now. you got a cover story coming up on newt? >> i like newt for the reason

that -- >> you've got a cover story coming up on newt. >> he's -- he's got a whole -- >> newt's eyes, there'll be lots of debates about newt's eyes on the cover of "newsweek." >> he positions every single time, and at least when that immigration exchanged, newt, it was reckless, but a smattering of recklessness makes people think this person has a brain and has thoughts. >> that's terrific. >> actually, i will bet you also a couple more steaks that newt's going to be on the cover of "newsweek." >> here's his smattering of recklessness.ç >> you've been here 25 years and you've got three kids and two grand kids, you belong to a local church, i don't think we're going to separate you from your family, uproot you forcefully and kick you out. the party that says it's the party of the family is going to adopt an immigration policy which destroys families that have been here 1/4 century.

and i'm going to take the heat for saying let's be humane and enforce the law. finding a way to create legality. >> that's a rick perry moment. >> yeah, he strapped on the tnt. >> major garrett, he just strapped the same tnt that blew rick perry up a couple months ago. >> in a different way, though. that was the biggest take away by far of it will night. that's the most important moment because that -- what newt gingrich said about immigration will damage him in two states, iowa and south carolina. >> those two states -- he's good. the two most important states. >> for gingrich to succeed against romney, he needs to exceed expectations in iowa and south carolina. there's only one state he has more than two or three offices, five in south carolina. what he said last night is going to significantly undercut whatever momentum he was building in iowa and south carolina. >> and major, the great news, is

the great news is, major, steve king will standby him. oh, wait, i'm sorry, a prairie fire sweeps across western iowa right now and it's heading right toward newt's support. >> interesting. >> why did he do -- >> that's the great question. first of all, newt is fantastic at the extreme anecdote. he's always done this. he describes this, a family that's been here over 25 years, you're going to rip them çapar. how it operationalizes it into policy gets a little tricky. draw the line at 25 years, 20 years, 10 years? i'm sympathetic to the scenario he was presenting. but was he planning for this? did he go into the debate saying -- is it classic, undisciplined? >> once he said it, he knew he had to dig in on it because michele bauchmann turned him and challenged. she says it sounds like you just offered amnesty to 11 million illegal immigrants.

and he kept going with it. >> and this is kind of like -- >> on a human level, it was good and effective. and it's going to probably undercut him, but at least -- >> she's got a cover. i can't even -- >> she's got a cover coming. >> it's just not that -- it's just i liked him for ten minutes. >> this is -- >> i liked him for ten minutes. >> the same guy that called paul ryan's budget extreme social engineering from the right. >> yes, exactly. >> i'm confused. what's he doing? he's in first place here. can no one tame his mouth? >> newt gingrich, you knew him when he was speaker, i knew him having covered him as minority speaker and out of life in washington, he loves to merchandise ideas. and he merchandising them at such a rapid rate that he often merchandises them faster than he thinks about the strategic implications of the idea itself. there were times during his speakership where he would have

lp  he had, someone would hear it, run on the floor and said the speaker just said this great thing, let's run with it, and six hours later or maybe six minutes later he would say, i don't believe in that. who said that? that is one of the waysç newt gingrich -- a place for ideas would percolate and ricochet around, but they would never be any particular strategic approach to winning the nomination in realtime. >> that's him. >> he's a loose cannon. >> very erratic. >> i used one the other day, hypocrite -- but you guys can go on and on about newt gingrich. >> you see, i saw that. i saw -- you seemed angry. >> you were angry. but newt -- >> angry. >> let's watch responses to newt really quickly. >> -- like they're being mocked in this country. >> you were defending -- >> amnesty is a magnet.

when we have had in the past programs that said people who come here illegally are going to stay here illegally for the rest of their life, that's only going to encourage more people to come here illegally. >> and here's michele bauchmann, t.j. play her. >> i don't agree that you would make 11 million workers legal because that in effect is amnesty. and i also don't agree that you would give the dream act on a federal level. if i understood correctly, the speaker just said that would make 11 million people here now illegal legal. and the federal dream act would offer taxpayer subsidized benefits to illegal aliens. we need to move away from magnets, not offer more. >> you see that look. >> uh-oh, did i say that? i'm going to keep going. >> i just did what rick perry did, blew up his campaign in iowa. >> rick perry talked about compassion. remember he said you don't have

a heart if you don't believe this. he in effect said the same thing. he said these areç people who t down roots, been here a quarter century, have kids, grand kids. how can you say no? >> i missed it, i missed it, darn it, what a loss. >> michele bauchmann also, though, was forceful in pakistan. >> she was forceful on pakistan, after a very successful appearance the night before was it on jimmy fallon? she was funny and effective. but this debate was on foreign policy and she took on the issue of pakistan. do we have that sound bite, alex? let's roll that and then we'll talk about it. >> they've showed us time after time they can't be trusted. and until pakistan clearly shows they have america's best interest in mind, i would not send them one penny. >> with all due respect to the governor, i think that's highly naive. again, we have to recognize what's happening on the ground. these are nuclear wes all across this nation. and potentially al qaeda could get ahold of these weapons.

these weapons could find their way into new york city or washington, d.c. and a nuclear weapon could be set off in this city. that's how serious this is. we have to maintain an american presence. >> you know, dan, we've been awfully tough on michele bauchmann, but i will tell you, she was very good last night. she was competent, wasn't playing for the cheap applause lines. i mean -- and you talk about her performance the night before, it's almost like she's finding her sea legs before the final charge in iowa. >> she clearly is getting invested in the substance here. she knows what she's talking about -- >> she should be rewarded for that -- >> when you know you're losing, you can actually -- >> it's liberating. >> she can sort of be herself. which is not -- >> -- whichç helps. >> the pakistan debate was interesting. what he was basically implying

was barack obama ran for office saying he was going to improve relations in the world. and if you go shot by shot around the world and look at the relationships with these foreign governments have deteriorating. and he was saying even a country like pakistan where we have so much at stake, this president has taken -- not necessarily his watch, but relations with pakistani government are at an all-time low. she explained the context of the situation we're dealing with. even with deteriorating relations, the solution isn't necessarily cut them off. >> why are they deteriorating? because we sent in those brilliant navy s.e.a.l.s -- >> and drone attacks. >> and give her credit for using the nuance in the argument. because the easy thing to do -- they were harboring osama bin laden, we can't trust them, take away their money. she's been there, she knows it's more complicated. >> that was without a doubt her best debate -- >> her best moment there and definitely her best debate.

>> and because she wasn't playing for the cheap applause lines, she may have three or four months ago. she was -- you want a candidate of substance. >> it's like catnip among republican politics saying you're going to cut off foreign aid anywhere, especially in pakistan, conservatives in primary states will jump at it and she didn't take it. >> no, she didn't. >> the "morning joe" table for bauchmann, newest development. >> it's about the -- >> we're not even going to put her on the cover this week. >> no, we're putting newt on. >> let's round this out. huntsman, of course, as we said is focusing all of his attention on new hampshire. the former utah governor in fourth place with -- >> that's prettyç close to doue digits. i'm getting hungry. mitt romney has an overwhelming lead with 41% support. >> mitt romney lives in new hampshire. so he's going to get -- >> he's already the excuses. >> no --

>> when i double down on the stakes, i didn't say that he was going to be living in new hampshire. >> he lives in new hampshire. he vacations in new hampshire. he's got to get at least 40% or he loses new hampshire. burr i'm still going to win this bet. >> he's also running as a republican, jon huntsman isn't -- >> oh, seriously -- >> he's basically running on barack obama's foreign policy. and i say this as a supporter of mitt romney. >> here's the problem, you shouldn't have done that because what i can say is jon huntsman's always been pro-life, mitt romney's running as a republican this year because it will help him be pro-life. jon huntsman has been for the second amendment, mitt romney is only for the second amendment now that he's running. he was governor of utah, he didn't give barack obama the idea for obama care, mitt romney did. >> you're talking about pragmatic facts. >> jon huntsman is running on

barack obama's foreign policy in afghanistan, iraq, and it was barack obama's ambassador to china. i'm simply saying, it's no surprise that neither their policies are getting much purchase in the republican primary. jon huntsman is getting 2% in the polls -- >> can i ask you a question? where did the neo cons go for thanksgiving? a shooting range or something? >> speaking of which, speaking of which, that audience last night -- that audience last night, that was a scary, scary audience. >> the pointç about the -- >> it was like a flashback. >> i was sitting back on my couch -- >> it was like the star wars bar. >> it was a star wars bar. >> come on, those are my people. >> adding to -- >> it was a ghostly flashback. >> my brother ian worked for paul. absolutely. i saw a lot of family there. >> willie, it's almost like i'm at home and people -- what was

matt lewis' quote? people around the "morning joe" table are looking at republicans as archaeologists look at ancient tribes -- >> well, as if they have been dug up. >> fantastic. >> major garrett, grade the debate last night. who's the winner? >> well, look -- let me say one thing about the debate up front. and having co-moderated one recently, i have a appreciation i didn't have before. don't waste the first 15 minutes, please. cold open. just get to the questions, number one, and number two, the winner -- look, until mitt romney falls in these debates, he always wins, he's the default winner unless he does something memorably uncomfortable, which he did not do. he struck all the right notes on immigration, all the right notes generally speaking on pakistan, iran, all the major topics. newt gingrich also performed well, except on immigration where either intentionally or unintentionally he created weakness for him in the two most

important states. >> as you said, major, that's only going to hurt him in iowa and south carolina, so that's cool. >> that's a big problem. let's talk about huntsman for a second. the numbers you just showed about new hampshire are not worthless, but nearly worthless, go back and look at the new hampshire polling seven or eight weeks çout. it almost never reflects the actual result. ask huntsman will outperform where he is currently in new hampshire. he'll probably get double digits, but it won't be enough. it's not a catapult for his campaign. it will be better than we expect, but it won't determine or change the ultimate outcome for him. >> what you look at in the early poll like this -- and we're at 50 days till new hampshire, you look at trend lines. and the trend lines are obvious. you've got rick perry who is just -- oh, my lord, can you get in negative digits? huntsman going up, romney going up -- >> can i ask you a question? even if i'm willing to concede that huntsman could get some

traction in new hampshire, where does he go from there? >> south carolina. >> oh, yeah. the huntsman bandwagon's going to roll into south carolina? >> here's the deal. >> give me a break. >> -- i am loaded down with steak at the new hampshire primary and that bet, i'll then double down with you on south carolina. >> no, you won't. >> what sides are you going to get? mashed potatoes maybe? >> i like those. i like those, i like sauteed spinach. >> all right. so, on major's point about the cold open, i will say it did look like we were at a wrestling match or something when all of these men walked out, each one to loud applause. it was like, what is this? is this a debate. >> they treat these guys like dancing monkeys. >> i felt -- that was the only time i felt a little awkward for each candidate. and i learned something when i use words that might be difficult and harsh and potentially critical of somebody, i'll just smile when i'm doing it. >> exactly.

>> that's so interesting. coming up -- >> she's still obsessed two days when sheç screamed and spit abt newt gingrich for five or six hours. >> just because she was defending occupy wall street and newt was critical of -- >> well, i guess you would call that defending him. she got really upset when he said they should take a bath. he did sound like eric cartman, take a bath, hippie. >> i'm going to move on and go to bill karins who has your holiday forecast. bill? >> good morning, everyone. very difficult morning for travel, especially in new england. yesterday afternoon and evening, major airport delays on the east coast. not going to be much better this morning, but throughout the day, it'll improve. by this evening, hopefully everyone can get to their destinations. worst travel right now, bright white heavy snow new hampshire, vermont, and maine. higher elevations, hartford down through rhode island, 6 to 12 inches of snow by the time we're

done today from burlington to bangor, maine. new york city, light rain left, but the worst is ending throughout the morning. philadelphia, 95 south wards to baltimore and d.c., all your heavy rain is done. you'll see showers today, but the forecast is much better right now for the carolinas all the way down to georgia. the rain is exiting off the coast as i speak. florida, north florida, watch out for some storms there. the forecast today, heavy rain this morning. i think boston to new york city airports will be the worst to start the morning, but those areas will improve. anyone traveling to the pacific northwest, a big storm for you with heavy rain and gusty winds. and finally, your thanksgiving day forecast, about 90% of the country looks fantastic. just the west coast and the pacific northwest. we'll deal with some soggy turkey weather. good luck on your travels, everyone, you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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26 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers along with tina brown, willie geist, joe scarborough and dan senor. >> i'm adviser. >> oh, really? >> i mentioned it early on. >> i'm glad you're advising in foreign policy. >> you're not clouded at all in your judgment when you make bets. >> i'm glad he's advising on foreign policy instead of like politics. because you just -- questioned somebody else's republican cred. >> you might want to learn from today. >> yeah, you just don't go there. >> it'll come back at you is much worse. >> the utah governor, he's not a real republican. he's not conservative -- >> he's not. he's not. >> everyone knows -- >> everyone on this stage last night -- everyone on the stage last night advocated a neo

reaganite foreign policy with two exceptions, ron paul and jon huntsman. >> hold a second. stop the music. stop the music right here. this is the funniest thing i've ever heard. we've got to get to this. here's the deal -- >> this time we actually call out b.s. >> the flag is going down on the neo con empire. >> wow, we're doing another bet. >> john mccain, lindsey graham, and joe liberman are on an increasingly shrinking island. there are more and more people that have looked at the united states after a decade of war -- and i will guarantee you any candidate, any candidate that talks of needing to get out of decade-long wars will be rewarded in republican primaries. you are isolated. your day is done when it comes to becoming a neo con. and you better tell mitt romney that, because if he keeps walking down that path, he loses

big. >> the island you're talking about is being expanded. marco rubio is the next generation of that vision, kelly iote, senator kirk from illinois. the republican party sound a lot more like mccain, liberman, and lindsey graham than they do jon huntsman and ron paul. and theç nominee who wins -- t republican who wins this primary, the republican who wins this primary, i will bet will not be someone who is advocating jon huntsman's and ron paul's view on foreign policy. as much as the neo cons have been demonized -- >> i'm not -- >> the reality is they represent the most dominant force in republican politics -- >> hold on, just stop. that is absolutely not true. we go to the hill all the time, we talk to senators, hard-core conservative senators, and republican congressmen and they all say the same thing. i can't cross mccain, but i'm with you, joe, you're exactly

right -- >> can't cross mccain. why is marco rubio making the case for intervention in libya, regime change in syria. why was every republican on that stage last night including jon huntsman talking about tough intervention in iran? did that sound like some sort of party moving to a realist -- >> hold on, where they were holding that debate. >> what i'm saying is you can separate iran from all of the other muslim countries that neo cons want to invade. no, seriously, lindsey graham, there is not a muslim country on earth he doesn't want to invade. >> that's a gross overstatement. >> of course it's a gross overstatement. >> herman cain was worried about those mountains. very mountainous countries, that was a wikipedia fact he learned. >> a shrinking island. >> where? the guy -- the foreign policy, the candidate who representing the foreign policy you're embracing is at 2% in the polls.

point to me the republican senators in the senate today that are abandoning the mccain/lindsey graham foreign policy. where are they? >> rand paul. >>ç you get rand, ron, and jon. those are the -- >> a very good point when he said that debt was our biggest national security issue, and that's going to have the resonance. >> did you see the applaud? >> that's a great point. that's our biggest problem, and when jon huntsman talks about nation building at home rather than abroad. what is he talking about? he's talking about 10,000 to 15,000 -- >> this is "morning joe," we do substance. >> i know, but we're not going to talk about the fact that the neo con movement is dying for the next three hours. >> not in that room last night. not in that room. >> how long do you, not mitt romney, how long do you believe we ought to be in afghanistan? >> through the time line the commanders have recommended which is through 2014, which

barack obama -- >> and then we withdraw at that point? >> you cannot say at this point -- >> no, not a cut and run. >> but you would have to keep something -- >> seriously, 30 years later, i'm not cutting and running from this place. >> we'll only have been there 13, 14 years, we can't leave, right? that would be horrible! >> jon huntsman doesn't think we should leave. in the follow-up question he talked about keeping 10,000 to 15,000 troops there. >> i bet you're upset we're leaving iraq. >> the commanders recommended about 15,000 to 20,000 troops, and we should've complied with them. not in a lead fighting role, in a -- they don't always want to stay. commanders were recommending against the large footprint in iraq under rumsfeld. most were against the surge. >> i want to bring in mike allen. jump in here. >> he's a senior adviser around romney too.ç >> what's your take here?

>> happy pre-thanksgiving. and we saw last night -- we saw last night several of the candidates moving into general election mode. they're trying to move ahead and run against obama. with gingrich who is just hammered by his other opponents for softening his position on immigration. afterwards, michele bauchmann, mitt romney's folks calling it amnesty, his plan. but he's looking at how he would match up with president obama. in the spin room last night, fascinating, the romney folks not backing away from the ad you all showed yesterday where they took a little snippet of the distorted -- something that was taken out of context. they liked the idea of bringing the obama folks out of engaging already with obama. and y'all have been in spin rooms and it's always funny to hear people echo each other's talking points. you had both romney's stevens

across the aisle from each other saying the obama reelection campaign needs new def fib laters. >> you guys were doing the story on mitt romney and whether mitt romney's ad was a distortion or not. and i being the republican that i am got immediately sad. oh, isn't this great. isn't this fascinating, they never did this with barack obama when he had all the grainy images of john mccain, which, by the way, he ran more negative ads than anybody. and i said this is media bias, and then i heard what the romney people did, that's just sleazy politics. >> yeah. >> that was one of the -- and i can't believe -- i don't understand. that was just -- weç can call like it is. that was sleazy. they ripped those words out of the context -- >> and made a lie. >> it was almost worse than being out of context. they made up a different story.

>> what are they saying this morning about that? the romney campaign. >> yesterday were speculating why they did this. it's clear after last night why they did. i had conversations with the romney people. they all loved the idea that we took the bait that because of that distortion, because of that -- >> right. >> that we took the bait that he got caught lying and being sleazy. >> and being sleazy. >> what kind of bait? i don't get it. >> the point is -- >> i could take off my clothes and put turkey feathers on my head and people would take that bait. why would i want to do that? >> what are you talking about? >> exactly. i'm just saying, he exposed himself as using a sleazy campaign trick. how does that help? >> yesterday, and both on this side and elsewhere, we talked about what president obama, then senator obama really said. he was talking about a mccain

adviser. it's clear this was taken out of context. what the romney people are saying is that by using this technique, they've gotten tons of coverage for an ad that otherwise would be ignored. >> i don't buy that. >> i like the image of joe -- >> they got caught. >> don't you try to change the subject. >> what was that image? >> no, seriously, we call it like it is, and we've been critical for barack obama for his negative campaigns in the past, but this was negative and sleazy. >> yeah, it was dishonest. and the problem is the romney campaign says the media knows the context of it.ç but the people seeing it at home don't have time to place it back in the context. >> romney should've said, yes, we got it wrong -- >> that's what i expected. >> it was really, really cheesy. >> i've got to work on this. some of the people in that campaign seem to have very bad manners. very bad. mitt romney would apologize for being sleazy, i'm sure. >> if the occupy wall street

people take a bath, then we would be willing -- >> so you're going there too. so romney -- >> i'm for the occupy wall street people taking baths. i'm pro-bathing. >> romney's people have waded into the occupy wall street -- >> foreign policy adviser -- >> holy cow. >> can we talk about that man up there? >> i want to -- >> i want talk about herman cain. >> it could be a long thanksgiving weekend. you know why they call it black friday?

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all right. quick minute of sports. you've got good football tomorrow on thanksgiving. packers will play the detroit lions. tough defense at 12:00 eastern time. that's in detroit. >> does detroit have a chance? >> yeah, they got a chance. i don't think they'll win, but they've got a chance. tough defense. miami and miami's playing better. they go to dallas and then you've got a really good game prime time 8:20. san francisco, 9-1 at the ravens. >> that's going to be great. >> that's a good day of football. >> and this weekend, the best college football possible, friday, lsuç and arkansas. >> i'm glad you brought that up. lsu hosts arkansas in a huge game. >> number one against number three. >> number one against number three. the bcs standings as you know,

joe, one, two, three, not just from the same conference, but the division of the conference. huge game, arkansas, lsu, and alabama's got to be careful. they've got to win. >> arkansas, lsu, and alabama are one, two, and three. >> one two, and three. >> they've got a 31-2 record between them. the only two losses come from within those three teams. nobody can beat those three teams in america. >> south carolina and georgia, two loss teams, they're on razor's edge. five great teams in the s.e.c. >> it doesn't seem fair. i can't believe i'm saying this. if you're lsu, you have beaten alabama away. >> yeah. >> and now to get a chance to play alabama again for the national championship, you have to beat the number three team and then you've got to go to the s.e.c. championship and beat the number six team probably by then, georgia, and then you get to go back and beat alabama again. split the series for the year

and watch -- >> look, rattner's here. >> no, i want willie's response. life's not fair. >> the league is so much better than all the others, it's ridiculous. steve rattner's next. ♪

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we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. what do you think? it's fun. hey, with us now -- wow, that is a cool shot at the top of the rock. the day before thanksgiving. it is miserable in new york right now, but it's going to be beautiful this weekend. you say it pretty. >> what's -- oh, my goodness. >> yes, you do. >> financier and "morning joe" economic adviser steve rattner. i'm going to let you guys go because you've been chattering in the break and i don't want to get involved and interrupt a very good conversation. >> major and steve. >> but i do want to read

friedman at the end. >> no, read friedman. >> really? >> yeah. but do it quickly. >> go big -- i'm so glad you're back. >> do it quickly. >> i voted for barack obamaç a i don't want my money back. he's never gotten the credit he deserves for bringing the economy he inherited back from the brink of depression. he fought the war on terrorism in a smart and effective way. he's making health care possible for millions of americans with preexisting conditions and he saved the auto industry, hello steve rattner. this is important stuff, but they pale in comparison to the challenge of the obama presidency. can he put the country on a sustainable, economic recovery path when at a time if we fail it could be the end of the american dream? >> steve rattner, everybody's talking about the debt. and we face an historic crisis as it pertains to the debt. but unfortunately, we're fact g

ing facing that crisis at the same time, average male wages been going down since 1973. how do we turn it around? >> tom friedman has said it eloquently. and if you want to make the case for barack obama, he's done it well. your point is completely right. when people say this is going to be a long, slow recovery, because you have to work your way out of the debt. there's no quick fix, no magic bullet. there's no secret sauce. you just have to work your way out of the debt and that means a period of austerity. and if you look, for example, at jobs, we have lost something like 450,000 public sector jobs over the last year and a half. because of the austerity. and that adds to unemployment and slows the recovery. forget about what's going to happen now that the super committee has failed, cut something like 1% off gdp as part of recovery. this is the consequences of becoming overleveraged.

>> hey,ç major, sounds like thomas friedman put together talking points for the president and the white house. is that the argument they're going to use over the next year? yes, things aren't great, but we stopped the economy from going over the cliff. >> and look at rahm emanuel's speech, that is the pitch for reelection. big issues, big decisions, did what he said he would do, what he promised to do as a candidate. he's tried to carry out in as many different ways as possible as president. there is a consistency of engaging on these issues and coming up with the best solutions he could under very trying circumstances. that will be the reelection message of the obama campaign. and for democrats and for a good number of independents. i believe it will be at least partially persuasive. because you can't deny these have been consequential times, the tough decisions have been made and the atmosphere which president obama arrived is

extremely difficult. particularly on the economic side. now, republicans will argue, yes, it may not be terrible, but are you satisfied? and that's going to be the essential defining question. are you satisfied with this level of progress? if you're not, you're going to vote against president obama. even if you give him credit for taking on big issues in big ways. >> tina, ronald reagan in 1980 in his final debate with jimmy carter defined presidential debates. that has become the question americans have asked. it's not like it was in 1936 when roosevelt got reelected despite the fact that the depression was even worse. i wonder if americans that go to the voting booth are going to look at 9.1% unemployment and say, you know what? i'm going to factor inç the fa that this guy inherited a terrible economy and i'm going to reason through it. i'm going to try him for another four years. that may or may not be the logical thing to do.

i just don't see the american populous doing that. they don't want their taxes raised and don't want their medicare cut. >> i think he will get some pass for it. people do remember what he came in for. and there was a sense it was an absolutely appalling mess when he got in. i think what people have missed most, though, from barack obama is the sense that he's been an active and an internventionalis and who has fought harder. i don't feel people feel he has done that. that is the major problem with barack obama. they don't feel this president has ever felt the job issue as they have. it's an emotional issue with him not an issue of absolute involvement. >> and meacham. i thought meacham was brilliant on the show when he talked about the other presidents. this guy, you just sense he doesn't like people.

he's not comfortable in small groups, but -- and i do think that's hurt him with the electorate. but i think peggy noonan framed this several months ago better than anybody else has. i don't think the question's going to be how -- what did he inherit and how are we doing now? the question is, did he make things worse? >> right. >> and i think that -- if i were running and steve, we'll get to you in a second. but if i were running, i could make a really strong economy t-at he took a bad economy and now, steve would disagree with me. but i think this is the issue of the campaign. >> right. if we start litigating the nature of the mess he inherited, republicans will lose, the republicans should concede he inherited a mess and then make the case or ask the questions -- did he make it worse? and the question is, was that a good use of time, resources, and political energy to spend his first year in office fighting for health care reform? when you've inherited a mess,

will he be rewarded for having done that? as you said, when people are walking to the voting booth and saying, 9.1% unemployment, high numbers, people are going to say let's rehire this guy. >> i think most americans are going to get what he did with detroit. detroit's back on its feet. but i think a lot of americans will say, what was the year and a half debate on health care about when it didn't fix anything? >> look, we can debate whether health care was right or wrong. he made a commitment to do health care. he understood if you want to do something as president, you have to do it in the first couple of years. >> is that what you want to get done in the first couple of years? >> in retrospect, perhaps not. he did make a substantial difference in this country. this economy would be in dust if he -- both bush and obama had not done the things they did. >> major garrett, thank you. >> -- why he can't get things done. >> he loves to say that. >> thanks for the sneak peek.ay >> looking forward to newt on

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all right. is it time? >> it's time. >> it's time for the news you can't use. >> does mitt's foreign policy adviser think it's okay to -- >> he was just talking about -- >> i didn't like that. all right. let's do a little more from the debate last night. we haven't talked enough about herman cain. in my view, we haven't talked enough about herman cain andç e way he identified the very,

very, very famous with a very, very easy to remember well-known name wolf blitzer. >> is it okay for muslim americans to get more intensive pat-downs or security when they go through airports than christian americans or jewish americans? >> no, blitz, that's oversimplifying it. i happen to believe if you allow our intelligence agencies to do their job, they can come up with an approach. i'm sorry, blitz, i meant wolf. blitz, wolf. >> since we're on a blitz debate, i apologize. wolf, what i'm saying is -- we can increase their identification of people that might be a danger to civilians as well as a danger to this nation. >> thank you, cain. >> i love it. he handled it well. >> wolf blitzer, not blitz

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governor huntsman, do you agree with governor romney that the u.s. has to stay in afghanistan at these levels? >> i totally disagree. i think we need to square with the american people about what we've achieved. we need an honest conversation.

we haven't done a very good job defining and articulating what the end point is in afghanistan. i think the american people are getting very tired about where we find ourselves today. >> are you suggesting, governor, that we take all our troops out next week? what's your proposal? >> did you hear what i said? i think we should drawç down fm 100,000. we don't need 100,000. we need a presence on the ground that is more akin to 10,000 to 15,000. that will serve our interests in terms of intelligence gathering and special forces response capability. >> i stand with the commanders in this regard and have no information that suggests that pulling our troops out faster than that would do anything but put at great peril the extraordinary sacrifice that's been made. this is not time for america to cut and run. >> but at the end of the day the president of the united states is commander in chief. of course you're going to listen to the generals, but i also remember when people listened to the generals in 1967 and we heard a certain course of action in southeast asia didn't serve our interest very well.

>> well, welcome back to "morning joe." steve rattner and dan senor are still with us. he's a financier and he's a foreign policy adviser. and joining the table -- >> steve, you agree with the neo con that the island is expanding. but after watching jon huntsman go after mitt romney last night, you want part of my bet, don't you? >> well, that's a different question. i want part of your bet because i think jon huntsman has a decent shot to get on the score board, to get above 10%. he's practically living there. he's putting all of his effort there. and if any state in the early round is going to give him any kind of a nod, it's going to be new hampshire. but that's a different question. i do think that the republicans are basically on dan senor's side of this argument, which is still more forward leaning in our foreign policy. >> thank you for coming on -- >> i also want to hear from a

gentleman joining us from washington, associate editor and columnist for theç washington post david ignacious. >> there are pleasant surprises for me every debate. there have been very depressing debates, but last night, i was really pleased to hear michele bauchmann school rick perry when he engaged in demagoguery on pakistan. i want to play you this clip where i think perry just talked about slashing aid to pakistan. which we all know would be the stupidest thing to do right now despite the fact that they are such bad actors. but michele bauchmann came through with which i think the best answer of the night. >> they showed us time after time that they can't be trusted. and until pakistan clearly shows that they have america's best interest in mind, i would not send them one penny. >> with all due respect to the

governor, i think that's highly naive. because again, we have to recognize what's happening on the ground. these are nuclear weapons all across this nation. and potentially al qaeda could get ahold of these weapons. these weapons could find their way out of pakistan, into new york city, or into washington, d.c., and a nuclear weapon could be set off in this city. that's how serious this is. we have to maintain an american presence. >> even steve rattner. when steve rattner's saying michele bauchmann was great, you know she turned in a great performance. david, bauchmann's exactly right on pakistan, isn't she? >> she did not give the predictable cheap shot answer, she talked entirely sensibly about the maddening reasons why we can't justúd[op pakistan as an ally. i thought she actually made that clearer to people than our president often has. so that was a good michele

bauchmann moment. looking at this debate overall, my take away was foreign policy is an area where the president is likely to be dominant. i didn't think any of these people really rose to the level of intensity or coherent critique that's going to mean this is going to be trouble for obama. weirdly, this will be an area of strength for this democrat. >> and who would've ever guessed that. go back to 2008, who ever guessed that dan senor would be applauding him for tripling the number of troops in afghanistan, for jacking up the number of drone attacks to levels it's making people like me nervous on to all of the countries that we're dropping bombs into where we haven't even declared war. this guy -- remember your column about the cia back in 2009 talking about him undercutting the cia. now, the cia has got to love what he's doing, going after al qaeda with the drone attacks.

>> he -- >> he is more aggressive than bush was. >> identify writt've written as commander in chief, he has been quite brilliant. he's been tough -- as a public commander in chief of our forces, not so good. he doesn't do that well. and is often seen to leave his surge forcesu# in afghanistan kd of as a second thought. but on this covert stuff, it fits his personality. he likes to do things in secret. he's very decisive in secret, doesn't look back. how he projects that on the campaign will be interesting, but clearly a strength. >> wesñmoore, talking about th debate last night, what were your take aways? >> one of the take aways is that foreign policy is not an easy area. foreign policy is nuance, complex, and you saw the people who really get it and the ones who really don't. there was a clear separation. >> who were the ones that got it? >> herman cain.

>> it's mountainous in iraq. >> rick perry. >> rick perry got it. >> it took 25 minutes for herman cain to open his mouth in the debate. >> he didn't want to talk. >> he didn't want to talk about it. >> let's talk about it. who were the people, though, that you thought got gingrich shows he actually understands the complexity of the world that we're living in. mitt romney shows he understands the complexity, even though i have quite a few issues on where he falls with a lot of stuff. and jon huntsman made two of the most important points last night. you cannot talk about foreign policy in a vacuum, you have to talk about economic policy -- >> that was a great point. >> it's a great point. you cannot look at what happened without talking about european contagion, currency manipulation. all of these things matter -- >> and he didn't have time to get into this, but policy people, and dave, you can talk about this, we could all talk about this. the fact is that soft power now is going to rule dominant in the 21st century.

and the fact that people do not fear the united states as an economic power the way they did ten years ago. the fact that they can say to hell with the u.s., we're looking toward china. that has significant impact on our foreign policy and power. that's what huntsman was talking about. >> that's right. and the world bank released a report saying afghanistan will need $7ç billion in terms of foreign aid. so to talk about how we're going to look at things in a kinetic standpoint without the financial implications is just naive. in addition to that, jon huntsman made a great point talking about the issue. i continually hear candidates talking about, oh, well, i need to talk to candidates on the ground. but the fact is, you are the commander in chief, the final decision is yours. so taking advice is important, but at the end of the day, the commanders are taking a look at what they have in their purview in decision making.

they have to look at everything in totality and make the best decision for the country at that time. >> can you talk about how it has an impact on foreign policy? >> well, just in the sense of what we can realistically afford. there is now kind of a money cap on new adventures. i think as with everything ultimately, it's about perceptions. i've just come back from saudi arabia in the gulf. and i found the saudis not contemptuous, but within the sense that the united states is in some difficulty. that its dominance once unquestioned in that part of the world is now more vulnerable. the saudis saying we're going to have more responsibility for our own security. we're going to have to spend more ourselves because america, as i said, it's not the god that failed, it's the god whose divine powers are suspect. and i think that -- we haven't talked about it, but i thought the key moment in this debate and in the coming general

election campaign is going to be the question of american exceptionalism. i thought romney was powerful in saying this was the difference between him and obama. obama's trying to fit a]e ì(lc% into a changing world, has less money and all of the things this panel would describe it as. but the voters don't want to hear that and romney was playing directly to this idea that america's different, special, we're as strong as ever. and that's going to be right at this general election campaign. >> that certainly is a powerful message. i want to play a sound bite and then show the split screen that we opened up with just so we can talk over it of romney and huntsman taking each other on. but first, this is jon huntsman on the fact we need to fix our domestic affairs before we can have an effective foreign policy. >> as we talk about foreign policy, let's be reminded that in order to have an effective foreign policy, we need a washington that works.

today we have a president who can't lead. we have a congress that can't even figure out how to balance our budget. they need term limits, by the way. we've got to get our house in order -- thank you. we've got to get our house in order if we're going to expect to get anything done overseas. >> what i saw last night when i saw romney and huntsman taking each other on, that's mitt romney's nightmare right there is actually having to talk to someone who has a strong position, a conservative message, but a clear position on the way forward for this country and actually have to have an in-depth conversation. he's surrounded by other people that will never challenge him, mitt romney is. that split screen to me was like, wow, i'd like to see an hour of that and i'd like to see who comes out alive. >> two competing world views, and that would be a healthy discussion. >> it would be a really healthy discussion. >> it's not at all clear that romney's on the wrong side of that debate.

>> it would be a great çhour. >> great debate. >> there's a world view advocated by huntsman, which is a legitimate world view, joe i think shares a lot of it, which doesn't make it more or less legitimate. >> makes it right. yeah. >> but when you actually unpackage it and he talks about it in the context of bringing resources back home, nation building at home. the actual savings he's talking about, how much we would save by keeping 10,000, 15,000 troops in afghanistan, winding down iraq. he can't cite the cuts he wants to make. he can't cite anything -- the question is, are we talking about real numbers? >> what? >> it's $2 billion a week. >> but he still wants to keep major infrastructure and troops there, which will cost money. i'm not saying it's not -- i'm not saying it's inconsequential, i'm saying it's not -- >> i think there are two slightly separate issues. one is whether we want to have a

forward-leaning foreign policy or not. and the second issue is whether we can afford it. and i think what david said earlier is absolutely the case. our economic issues impact our ability to conduct leading foreign policy. and that's just something we have to deal with. >> well, over the past decade, the united states of america has been an occupying power. we've occupied two countries at the same time. it has exhausted us, shattered -- you know this better than anybody. i remember back in the 1990s, we were complaining about people doing two or three deployments and how that was impacting readiness. republicans would have hearing after hearing about how bill clinton was spreading us thin and threatening our readiness.ç we now have five, six, seven deployments, the same men and women doing this, and we have the specter of iran. we may have to make a very tough

decision on iran over the next 12 to 18 months and we're not going to be in a position to do that, fighting two hot wars. >> it's iran, but it's also the counter terror operations existing all over the world that need our attention. and it's about much more than just declining resources and more of the savings we can have if we were to have some type of redeployment. but in addition to that, we have lost, you know, 397 lives, american lives thus far in the war in afghanistan so far this year. if we cannot have a definitive clarity of mission. >> why are we there? >> nobody can answer that question. >> how can we continue to look at the families that are sacrificing -- 397 american lives lost so far this year. >> well, romney did give an answer to that question of why are we there. he basically made the point, we have invested all this time -- >> the generals. >> put aside the generals. we shouldn't just cut and run, have a carefully thought out and

instructive policy of this engagement. >> i agree with that standpoint. but my concern is, are we there yet? have we got to the point -- >> david ignatius. using the term, kucutting and running. maybe you can infuse us with the language we use. is drawing back at afghanistan at this point cutting and running? >> you'd have to say it's ten years onç and we've invested a awful lot. i was interested to hear that just rises out of the debates of the '60s and '70s about vietnam. surprising language. overall, i have to say, even with romney's defense of afghanist afghanistan, i thought this debate was a lot less bellicose than the last two weeks ago when the candidates were willy-nilly

talking about covert action here and take out this one here. and it was very strong rhetoric. and rhetoric really setting up the republican primary voters for a possibility with a -- u.s. war with iran. i thought there was much less of that, much more caution. i'm not sure about a no-fly zone here. wariness. and i think that's speaking to the public. the candidates probably found that out over the last two weeks. >> thanks so much. great to have you back on the show. coming up next, newt gingrich had interesting things to say on immigration. >> and as we heard from major garrett, that's only going to hurt him in two states, dan senor. iowa -- >> it was connecticut and wyoming. >> no, no, no. it'll only hurt him in iowa and south carolina. >> oh. >> but other than those two states. >> otherwise, he's going to -- >> let's over under on how fast newt is going to back down and

start up -- >> he can't. >> he can't. did you see him? >> i am in. i'm in. he is in -- >> this is the same -- newt does this all the time. the same guy that called paul ryan a right-wing socialist -- >>ç radical, a radical conservative social agenda. >> one thing he won't back down on, though, bath time for occupy wall street. >> oh, my lord. >> coming up. >> david gregory is next. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about making sense out of

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if you've been here 25 years and you've got three kids, two grand kids, you've been paying taxes, obeying the law, you belong to a local church, i don't thinkç we're going to uproot you forcefully and kick you out. the party that says it's the

party of the family is going to destroy families that have been here a quarter century. and i'm prepared to take the heat for saying let's be humane in enforcing the law without giving them citizenship, but by finding a way to create legality. >> all right. >> wow. >> 23 past the hour. we're having a little debate here. joining us now from washington, the moderator of "meet the press" can help us. joe thinks that that was newt sort of surging ahead in the polls and strapping on tnt. >> and sort of a rick perry sort of way. >> i see it as vomiting all over yourself. what say you? >> those are my choices? well, look, i thought it was a strong, but dangerous moment for newt gingrich. he actually found the language to provide a pathway to something less than citizenship. it was a real parsing of the immigration debate over the last decade.

which is to acknowledge reality that the united states is not likely to deport 25 million people who have been here for a long time illegally in this country, but who would also say no, you don't just go to the front of the line, you don't get citizenship as a result of some kind of new government plan to deal with immigration reform. and i thought he actually laid it out in a way that was stronger than what governor perry did. he didn't say other people didn't have a heart. he said i'm acknowledging some reality here, taking a look at families that come together and should stay together. look, this is a republican moment where he recognized if they don't begin toç get rightn immigration, they've got demographic shifts in the country that are going to hurt the party. but to joe's point, he also is maybe not thinking about iowa in some of the early contests where immigration is still such a hot-button issue. and you know it is because look how governor romney talked about it. >> especially in western iowa,

which is going to be key. steve king's out there. steve king is a congressman who is tougher on immigration than just about anybody, and there's a reason because western iowa is tougher on that issue than most other regions. >> and david, you mentioned how mitt romney responded. we have that as well as michele bauchmann's response to newt gingrich. take a listen. >> amnesty is a magnet. when we have had in the past, programs that said people who have come here illegally are going to stay here illegally for the rest of their life, that is going to encourage more people to come here illegally. >> i don't agree that you make 11 million people here illegally legal. and if i understood correctly, i think the speaker just said that would make 11 million people who are here illegally now legal. that's really the issue that we're dealing with. and also, it would be the dream act,ing the federal dream act would offer taxpayer subsidized

benefits to illegal aliens. we need to move away from magnets, not offer more. >> dan, i think david gregory described it very well, regardless of what you feel about this issue. it's a very dangerous thing for newt gingrich to say. >> it's a big idea whether you agree with it or not. the question is with newt, normally when candidates unroll a big idea, they background the press this is coming, there's a lot of -- >> you're talking about newt!ç >> briefing -- and then hurricane newt pops this -- and i'm wondering laughing -- his staff are probably learning about the new immigration position while they're watching the debate and the press are digesting it and the question is, what does he do now? how does he operationalize it? one question on the foreign policy issues. david just said a few minutes ago that the obama campaign is feeling very confident on foreign policy.

understandably, they got bin laden, got rid of qadhafi with regime change without spending a lot of military resources. but one issue -- it's true, they have a strong hand on some of those issues, but depending on where iran goes, the ia/ea report, the news we got about the terror plot. is there a sense that iran -- it's my sense that iran could completely change the discussion about foreign policy. and it could be presented as such, a case study in failure in foreign policy for the obama administration. >> i think that would be an overstatement, dan. i think the bush policy is effectively the same as this administration's with an important difference, which is, i hope this doesn't happen on my watch. let's try sanctions, pressure, keep things on the table, but we don't have a lot of options here. the difference with obama's that had a period of maybe we'll have some discussion, perhaps that was some time lost. but i don't think it's a huge area of difference.

i think what these candidates missed on foreign policy was that everything they're talking about last night is perhaps short of what they'll actually have to deal with. there'll be some decision they have to make that they didn't have necessarily a preparation ç for, that they did not anticipate. and a very tough decision on iran may be coming. here's what i thought was important about foreign policy distinction is that view of the world idea. america and the rest of the world. i think this president has masked republicans on terror policy. but how does a view about the economy, and america's role in a global economy change how should it change, and how does the u.s. lead? that's where i thought romney made a case. >> and, david, good morning, this is wes moore. i actually have a question about the newt gingrich statement. do you think it was at all calculated? and the reason i say that is this, the common belief that mitt romney's going to be the

nominee because he's the person who competes best against president obama in an election. how much of this do you think this was newt gingrich showing i can be a good candidate, as well. and it's not just mitt romney. >> i think that's a good point and distinctly possible. it is outweighed by some of his past. where he says what he thinks in the particular given moment. but i must tell you, wes, if you want to give all the credit of how calculated it may have been. the white house has feared in addition to romney, they look at perry as the only guy who can challenge the president because of his views on immigration. i think that gingrich in more than one instance. he did it too in talking about pakistan, did it when he was talking about the realities of iran. tried to sound like somebody who was in more of a general election. and i think this area of distinction may be one that he tries to make to show the voters, though. >> david gregory, thank you so much. have a wonderful thanksgiving.

>> happy thanksgiving. >> and, of course,ç we'll be watching "meet the press" on sunday. >> i dvr it, i watch it live -- >> i watch it online. i watch the entire net cast. thank you, david, richard stengel is here. more "morning joe" straight ahead. let's go to vegas. alright, let's do it. let's do it, let's go to vegas. vegas baby! maybe we should head back to the dealership first? vegas! no, this is a test drive. vegas! [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a jetta. that's the power of german engineering. get zero first month's payment, zero down, zero security deposit and zero due at signing on any new volkswagen. visit vwdealer.com.

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welcome back to "morning joe" at 33 past the hour. >> i'm sorry. we were just talking about -- i am talking about how great rick stengel is. and i want to retell this story. we always ask, why do we do this time? and it's because i caught myself -- when did you take over the magazine? >> about five years ago. >> when i was traveling back florida to new york, i caught myself three weeks in a row going past newsstands in atlanta airport and picking up "time." and i said i haven't done this in years and i went to the front and i said who -- and i found out it was rick stengel. we met, and i said please come on the show. you were doing something great at "time" magazine. and he gets it, and this cover is another reason. this will stop people at newsstands across america. >> i wonder why --

>> what is the answer to this question? >> first of all, let's get the question first. show the cover. the question is why anxiety is good for you. >> so now it's -- coming on the eve of thanksgiving, the great american holiday, which is the most stressful time of the year. and it's a cover about the kind of new p science of anxiety and what we're discovering about positive anxiety and negative anxiety. there's challenge anxiety and there's performance anxiety. challenge anxiety comes from the old evolutionary fight or flight thing. we're afraid a tiger's going to eat us, it releases cortisol and we're stressed out and trying to save ourselves. whether the tiger exists or not. >> is that good or bad? >> generally bad, but we wouldn't be here if it didn't exist because it saved our lives in the prehistoric times. performance anxiety, i.e., about to come on "morning joe," but you feel nervous, that gets your brain to click faster, releases hormones and things to make you

more acute and goes into the prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain whereas challenge anxiety goes in the old part of the brain. >> why is the good -- >> the performance stress is good because it makes you think clearer, perform better, it's like -- >> really. >> the old line about the woman who said to her teacher, you know, i don't have any stage fright and she said that's probably because you don't have any talent. >> so -- we have run a theory that anxiety leads to heart attacks, high blood pressure, cancer. is this performance type of anxiety actually positive? and does it not have the detrimental impact? >> no, it doesn't have as much as a detrimental effect, it has a positive effect. and that's where your dna comes in. some people are much more suited to that. >> type a types. >> .içóyeah. that you thrive on it. and in fact, when you don't have

any anxiety you, you know, it wears you down. in fact, we have richard lewis, mr. anxiety talks about how he uses that in performance and that actually makes it better. that he stokes it. and i think we all do that toç certain extent. we all give speeches, right. it has much more interesting to me to not have notes and think out of my head than to read the text. and that little bit of anxiety gives you more of an edge and helps you have a better performance. >> if you're doing a speech and there's sweat rolling down your back and you're shaking like a leaf, that's okay? >> you see, that's the overlap of the kind of bad anxiety with good anxiety. if you're having the fight or flight anxiety because you have the fear of public speaking, that's detrimental anxiety because that unwinds you. and you should be having kind of performance anxiety. >> i have to figure out what kind of anxiety i have when joe looks at me.

>> come on. >> it makes you smarter, steve. >> steve, you relate to this, right? most of those type "a" types. of you hear about the generals who would fight world wars go home, die of a heart attack the next week. bryant said i'll never retire because i'll die next week. some people thrive on anxiety. >> it's true, ceos who retire and don't do anything and die at a young age. absolutely, i get that. if you don't feel the good kind, you feel the bad kind. why aren't i doing something that's going to cause me to feel the good kind of anxiety. >> that's guilt. and we have that too. the thing is -- the doctor in the story says anxiety is neutral. it's how we use it, right. it's like -- it's not that we shouldn't wish for no anxiety, but we should learn how to use it in a positive way. and that's the moral. >> can you use it? >> absolutely. >> you can control it?

>> you can control -- more than even controlling it, you can use it for better performance. >> i'm çsorry, let me rephrase. can you control it without pharmaceuticals? >> yes, you can. >> there's behavior modification. like people with phobias. if you have fear of spiders, you actually -- which you may have, mika. >> no, i like spiders, snakes -- >> you confront them and ease in and see them over and over, suddenly the anxiety lessens and you're not so scared. >> right. okay. >> there's so many people who use anxieties in a positive way. those of us driven by self-hatred and fear of failure it gets us up every morning at 4:00 a.m. >> and how much have current conditions, you know, unemployment, people's optimism about the country, how much has that affected anxiety and people's dealing with it? >> it has a lot. the studies -- mass studies show that people are feeling more

anxious now than they have in any time in the past 10 or 15 years because all of those things increase anxiety, threats of terrorism, seeing your relatives on thanksgiving. all of that stuff increases your anxiety. >> but that's bad anxiety. >> your anxiety's got to spike to an incredible level, right? >> and so many times when we would leave the wire and go on missions, you almost take on this almost fatalistic perspective. because you realize if something happens, you realize there's not a lot that all the preparation can do. but that anxiety does kick in where it's that fight or flight. >> you have a piece on finance reform? >> so what's joe klein writing about this morning? >> joe klein wrote on jon huntsman plan to basically regulate the banks in a way that you can't have these big banks tha(o are too big to fail. and he looks at huntsman as the voice of reason in the republican race, the voice of

who's saying things that other people aren't saying. but i think a lot of, you know, kind of thinking people look at that group of folks up there and think, well, he's a very smart and reasonable guy. and i think joe is trying to make a little bit of a last-ditch effort. >> and, joe klein says the long shot candidate is bolder than obama about the big banks. and rick stengel, you're great. >> thanks. coming up next, oscar and tony award winning producer harvey winestein. keep it here on "morning joe." all energy development comes with some risk,

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. ♪ started this heat wave by letting my seat wave ♪ ♪ in such a way that the customers say that i certainly can can can ♪ ♪ we're having a heat wave a tropical heat wave ♪ ♪ the way that i move that thermometer proves that ♪ ♪ i certainly can >> wow, that was a clip from "my week with marilyn" starring michelle williams that hits theaters nationwide today. >> they just spit them out. >> churns them out. >> it's amazing. >> joining us now, the company's

co-chairman oscar and tony award winning producer harvey weinstein. >> really? i don't have time to watch all the great movies that harvey makes. if i watched them back to back to back. >> where do you begin? you want marilyn monroe? margaret thatcher? he's got them on a loop. >> before we go here, we've got to talk about the fact that the "new york post" actually gave the iron lady a positive review. you're not a small government conservative -- >> no, sir. >> no, you're not. >> neither is meryl streep. >> but the new york post says you guys put together a great picture about all conservatives, all conservatives hero, margaret thatcher. >> they said we were fair. saying i can't believe these two liberals went out and made a fair and balanced movie. whether we're on different sides of the fence or not, kyle's a great writer.

i might not agree with his opinions, but man he can write. and it was an amazing review. called the movie superb and noted where it came from. she's an amazing lady. margaret. >> no doubt about it. >> and meryl. >> and you picked an amazing lady to play her. >> the only amazing lady who could play her. >> i love it. >> is there -- i mean, meryl streep has no peer. >> does she have a peer? >> as far as actresses. >> i'll tell you who is coming up. today we open michelle williams' movie, "my week with marilyn" and her reviews are -- one review says she lights up the sky. they gave her five stars. "los angeles times," "the post" -- >> there's a breakout. >> there needs to be a third nomination. >> we were talking about the film last week. and he said it was mesmerizing to watch her get into this character. because you know the fear when

you tell a true story like this with someone who is so recognizable is that you do a caricature of the person or don't do it right. and he said he could not get over how she nailed marilyn monroe. >> i've never seen an actress work as hard as she or an actor, and she studied everything. she danced, she sang four songs. i mean, it's just an amazing transformation, and she lights up the movie. and our movies, the comedy, it's the fairy tale version. it's not the one with scarlet and naomi watts. it's about a young boy, an assistant who falls in love on the set of this movie. they run away, have a great week together. and it's really entertaining. and yet it gives you a snapshot into the tough things in her life too. >> that's where i like it, though. it doesn't drag us through the things we already know about marilyn monroe. captures this one week i don't think anybody knew about until they saw this book, this memoir that she spent with this young

man who got in the movie business and got a week alone with marilyn monroe. >> it's entertaining and just a fun movie for the holidays. you walk out of there -- i think, you know, i'll plug it for a second. rex reid said it's nice to go to the theaters and feel exhilarated after you leave -- >> of you memorized every quote. >> i have. >> you've got them all down. >> that's my tattoo. >> i love that. >> i'm not going to say where i did it. >> we don't want to know. russ? >> sometimes it's so difficult telling a story about someone who is so well known. what was it about this story that when you first heard it and said this is a story about marilyn that needs to be told? >> when i heard, i read the book, and when i read that a 23-year-old guy had a romance with marilyn monroe. i picture myself as that 23-year-old guy and every guy friend of mine who -- you know, i have more male friends interested in this movie than women because everybody wants to spend a week with marilyn

monroe. and it was just romantic and charming and fun. and just -- i don't want to tell that sad, crazy marilyn monroe story. that all happened later. this is just a snapshot. it's that all happened later. it's fun. they're singing, dancing. >> harvey, how do you do it? when we live in an era where pirates of the caribbean comes out and it's a great movie, but then the second one, the third one gets bigger and the story disappears and this happens. it even happened with "cars." probably my favorite kids movie since "the lion king." but it got bog ged down. raiders of the lost ark, they've got aliens in them now. how do you keep it stripped down and find the source -- do you read this book and then say, i see this as a movie. >> i read this book, but then

the director came to me in a project. i look for great stories. i've often said the words are my special effects. bombs don't go off in my films, but great words, great dialogue and great acting. i really believe in that and i also want to try to do unique things. i'm a movie fan myself. i love all the movies you're talking about as well, too. i have four daughters. trust me. i'm seeing all those movies, but i like the ones that are well written and i think that writers don't get enough credit. it's true. >> whether you're talking about music, broadway, movies, it all starts and ends with the writing. it ain't on p page, forget it. these guys can blow up the empire state building and ski across everest, at the end of the day, it's not going to move you. one guy in a room with, i made this movie called "my left foot"

many years ago. with a left foot picking up a pen is more moving than 25,000 cgi soldiers. doesn't even believe anymore. >> always a genius with great tv shows, "all in the family" or "cheers." archie in his living room talking to edith. just sitting in one room for ten years. >> there's a scene when marilyn monroe walks into the guy's pub in england. being from england, if marilyn monroe walked into your pub and these guys are playing darts and he's nursing a guinness at the bar, the door opens and you hear buy a guy a drink and it's marilyn monroe dressed to the nines. that one scene is worth all those big action movies. >> by the way, you're always great with books.

>> mika brzezinski's book. >> thank you so much. >> we bought this book. i should have made it a movie myself. "we bought a zoo," i guess cameron crowe made it with matt damon and i hear it's really fun, really lovely. good family movie. >> watch out for the -- this holiday season. >> harvey need to buy one of our books. >> i'll cut the deal for you. my week with mare line opens today, the iron lady, december 30th. >> can we get merrill to go on the republican convention. maybe be like "snow white and the seven dwarfs." >> mika called me, we should get

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welcome back to "morning joe." quick weather update. starting to dry out in d.c. at the white house. at least the rain is ending and amazingly, a lot of the big airports are doing okay. we didn't really have anything of any significance. got reports of about four to six inches of snow already through

northern new england. heavy rain is over from hartford to new york. all the heavy rain exiting the east coast today and thanksgiving looks nice for much of the country. exception being the pacific northwe northwest. coming up next, a blow by blow analysis of last night's republican debate. stay tuned. hi, could you read my list? it's all crossed out... it's 'cause i got everything on it. boom! thank you! [ male announcer ] black friday's here. deals start thursday 10 pm. but we're open all day and night so you don't have to wait outside. the only place to go on black friday. walmart.

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governor huntsman, do you agree with governor romney? >> i totally disagree. i think we need to square with the american people about what we've achieved. we need an honest conversation, but we haven't done a very good job defining and articulating what the end point is in afghanistan. i think the american people are getting very tired about where we find ourselves today. >> are you suggesting, governor, that we just take all our troops out next week? >> is that what i just said? we don't need 100,000 troops. >> many we niese a presence on the ground more akin to 10 or 15,000. that will serve our interest. >> i stand with the commanders in this regard and have no information that suggests that pulling our troops out faster than that would do anything than put at great peril the

extraordinary sacrifice has been made. >> at the end of the day, the president of the united states is commander in chief. commander in chief. of course you're going to listen to the generals, but i also remember when people listened to the generals in 1967 and we heard a certain course of action in northeast asia that didn't serve us very well. >> good morning, it's wednesday. >> thanksgiving. happy thanksgiving. >> in a matter of hours. be careful traveling though. stay safe. a wet morning across the east coast as you look at new york city. back with us onset, mitt romney's foreign policy adviser. >> unadviser. >> along with -- >> friend. >> and tina's got a sneak peek of what's coming up in the next issue of "newsweek." >> tina, huntsman showed up and he was mad. that was a new guy.

>> i mean, huntsman, if only he could just take a time machine back to the rockefeller republican era. he is beginning to look very well informed. i think new hampshire is a place that he could make up this comeback where -- rather comeback, he could launch himself final ly. >> we have a bit. >> prime grill. >> exactly. and that bet is what? >> i do not think huntsman will ever exceed his space right now in the republican field. he's at about 2% in the polls. i don't think he'll catch on. >> you don't think he'll do better in new hampshire? >> the bet was -- >> you tell me, will he stay in single digits in new hampshire? >> yes. >> okay, so listen -- >> and won't finish top three. >> i want to double down on you

right now. our families. >> have you been to prime grill? >> the steaks aren't cheap and my boys are eaters. >> i don't care. you say he's going to be held at single digits in new hampshire and no better than third. >> do you want to know why? >> i know you're wrong. that's like saying why is alabama going to lose auburn. i don't need to talk to you because i know you're wrong. >> so, here's the deal. >> let's run another huntsman clip. then we'll talk about it. >> this is what's absurd. he's at 2% of the polls and he got almost 40% of the air time. it's amazing. >> then we're going to debate and we get mitt talking amnesty and michele bachmann had her best debate. >> pakistan answer was extremely -- >> oh, my lord, she turned and schooled rick perry.

>> that was a good moment. >> between that and jimmy fallon. >> she's had a few great days. >> newt was a shining star. >> for losing. he's going down. >> he may be going down, but he was good last night. >> do you think he'll do better than huntsman in new hampshire? >> do you want to triple your -- >> major garrett, we're going to get to you. >> here's jon huntsman and what we need to do here at home to have an effect i have foreign policy. >> let me say that as we talk about foreign policy, let's be reminded that in order to have an effective foreign policy, we need a washington that works. today, we have a president who can't lead. we have a congress that can't even figure out how to balance our budget. they need term limits, by the way. we've got to get our house in order. thank you. we've got to get our house in order if we can expect to get anything done overseas. >> so, he and mitt were going

back and forth. >> i thought that was interesting. the split screen between the two of them. >> newt gingrich, who seriously, he can't stand being in front because the second he's in first place -- >> he vomits all over himself. >> he starts looking for the tnt. you love newt now. you've got a cover story coming up on newt. >> i like newt for the reason that -- >> you've got a cover story coming up on newt. >> he's got a whole immigration thing. >> newt's eyes. lots of debate about newt's eyes. >> he just rhett refits his entire personality every single time and at least in that immigration exchange, it was wreckless, but i think a little smattering of wrecklessness makes this person think he has a brain and thoughts. >> i will bet you also a couple

more steaks that newt's going to be on the cover of "newsweek." >> if you've got three kids, two grand kids, paying taxes, obeying the law, going to church, i don't think we're going to separate you from your family and kick you out. the party that says it's the party of the family is going to adopt an immigration policy which destroys families that have been here a quarter of a century and i'm prepared to take the heat for saying let's be humane and enforce the law not by giving them citizenship, but finding a way to create legality. >> that's a rick perry moment. he just strapped the same tnt that blew rick perry up. >> in a different way. but that was the biggest takeaway of the night. that's the most important moment because what he said about immigration will damage him in two states. iowa and south carolina.

>> he's good. two most important states. >> beautifully for connecticut. >> for gingrich to succeed against romney, he needs to exceed in iowa and south carolina. only one state that newt gingrich has three offices. five in south carolina. what he said last night is going to undercut whatever momentum he was building at the state level in iowa and south korcarolina. >> and major, the great news is major, at least steve king will stand by. oh, wait. i'm sorry. a prefire sweeps across western iowa right now and it's heading towards newt's support. >> interesting. >> that's the great question. first of all, newt is fantastic at the extreme anecdote. he describes this family that's been here for 25 years, you're going to rip them apart. how he operationalizes that into

policy gets a little tricky. draw the line at 25 years, 10 years? the bigger question is was he planning for this. did he go into the debate, there's this classic, undisciplined mitt. because in the debates a couple of years ago, he was way on the other side. >> once he said it, he knew he had to dig in on it because bachmann said it sowned like you just offered amnesty to immigrants. i did say that. >> it was good and effective and at least it was him, a person. >> i can't even -- >> she got a cover coming. >> it's just not that. i just you know liked him for ten minutes. >> this is major garrett. the same guy that called paul ryan's budget extreme social engineering from the right. >> exactly.

>> i'm confused. what's he doing? he's in first place here. can no one tame his mouth? >> newt gingrich, you knew him when he was speaker. i knew him having covered him, then out of life in washington. he loves to merchandise ideas and merchandises them as such a rapid rate that he does it faster than he thinks about the strategic implications. there were times he would have a meetinging, tell somebody this idea he had. someone would hear it and run on the floor. the speaker just said this great thing, what an idea, let's go run with it. six minutes later he would say, i don't believe in that. that is one to have ways, i've always thought about his presidential campaign as a place where ideas would percolate and ricochet around, but never be a strategic approach to winning in realtime. >> very erratic.

>> those are interesting words. i used one the other day. hypocrite. but you guys can go on and on and it doesn't seem to matter. >> i saw that. you seemed angry. >> newt -- >> let's watch responses to newt really quickly. here's responses. >> and you know -- >> amnesty is a magnet. when we have had in the past programs have said that people who come here legally are going to get to stay illegally for the rest of their life, that's only going to encourage more people to come here illegally. >> i don't agree that you would make 11 million workers legal because that is amnesty and i also don't agree you would give the dream act on a federal level. i think the speaker just said that would make 11 million people here illegally now, legal. that's really the issue that

we're dealing with and also, it would be a dream act. the federal dream act would offer taxpayer subsidized benefits to illegal aliens. >> you see that look? you know what he's saying. >> did i say that? >> i'm going to keep going. >> i just did what rick perry did. >> he talked about compassion. remember, he said, you don't have a heart if you don't believe this. these people put down roots, belong to churches. been here a quarter of a century. got kids and grand kids. >> i missed it. darn it. what a loss. >> michele bachmann also though, was forceful in pakistan. >> she was forceful on pakistan. this was after a very successful appearance the night before was it on jimmy fallon. she was just funny and effective. this was on foreign policy and she took on the issue of pakistan. do we have that, alex?

>> they've showed us time after time they can't be trusted and until pakistan clearly shows that they have america's best interest in mind, i would not send them one penny. >> with all due respect to the governor, that's high lie nieve. we have to recognize what's happening on the ground. these are nuclear weapons. potentially, al-qaeda could get ahold of these weapons. they could find their way out of the pakistan, into new york city or washington, d.c. and a nuclear weapon could be set off in this city. that's how serious this is. we have to maintain an american presence. >> you know, dan, we have been awfully tough on michele bachmann, but i will tell you, she was very good last night. she was competent. she wasn't playing for the chief applause lines. you talk about the, her performance the night before, it's almost like she's finding

her sea legs before the final charge in iowa. >> she clearly is getting invested in the substance here. >> she should be rewarded for that. >> i agree. when you know you're losing, you can -- >> it's liberating. >> she can sort of be herself. >> which is not -- >> the positive side was interested. what fred kagan was basically implying was barack obama ran for office saying that he was going to improve relations in the world. if you got shot by shot around the world and look at how relationships with these foreign governments have deteriorated was even a country like pakistan, where we have so much at stake, the president has taken, not necessarily his fault, relations with pakistani government at an all time low and she felt, i thought, handled it well. even with deteriorating relations, the solution isn't just necessarily cut them off. >> they're deteriorating because

we sent in those brilliant navy s.e.a.l.s.s and whacked osama bin laden. give him credit. >> the easy thing to do as rick perry said, they were harboring osama bin laden. we can't trust them. take away their money. she's been there. studied the issue and knows it's more complicated. >> that was without a doubt, her best debate. >> and her best moment because she wasn't playing for chief applause line, but she may have three or more months. >> you want a politically like it's like catnip among republican politics, saying you're going to cut off foreign aid anywhere, especially in pakistan. she didn't take it. >> when we come back, five years after a car bomb in iraq nearly took her life, award winning journalist kimberly dozer is back in the field. we're going to hear her story and why she decides to return to

the war zone. but first, an update on your travel forecast. >> this is a big storm moving through the east. it was miserable last night with heavy rain. this morning, things are improving. right now, none of the major airports on the east coast or chicago are reporting anything in the way of significant delays. partly cloudy skies in a few spots. heavy snow in northern new england. boston, some heavy rain continues probably through the morning hours, but by this afternoon, it will turn more showery in nature. there's the snow forecast. ski resorts are getting a ton of it. even the cities in between. as far as new york, philadelphia, baltimore, d.c., just some showers the rest of day today. the heavy rain is done, so the rain exits the east coast, now, we turn to the west coast. big storm system. lot of heavy rain for coastal areas of washington and oregon.

some down into service. on thanksgiving day, about 90% of you are going to enjoy and be thankful for a beautiful day. top of the rock, we're trying to get through the clouds. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values

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four people killed by a car bomb. paul douglas, james brolin, an unidentified iraqi soldier alleged translator. three more wounded, including

kimberly dozier. they got out of their humvees to inspect a check point. that's when the bomb went off. douglas and brolin died in the street. dozier was taken to the medical center. >> that was in 2006 when kimberly dozier nearly lost her life in an insurgent attack and now now with us, kimberly dozier, and author of "breathing the fire." good to have you guys as well. i just, i'll never forget that day. i never will. i was at a memorial day event with my daughters. i was walking along the track. there was a like a one of those balloons that the kids jump in, the kids were all going crazy and it came across on my blackberry and i just crumbled

on to the ground. i felt so humbled by your work, your commitment, by all your years at cbs and all the time that you spent in these countries trying to tell the stories and i wasn't sure you were going to make it at that point, but i just remember completely losing it and falling to my knees in prayer. and here you are. how are you doing? you look incredible. i see you functioning. but how are you these years later? >> i am doing great and one of the reasons that i keep fighting to get back to the field is in memory of the team i know you worked with in the field, our camera crew that was lost that day, but the hardest part about coming back, coming back from the hospital, learning to walk again, coming back to work was the next step, which was proving that i was okay, because everyone remembers that day.

they remember the moment, everyone in our community, remembers that moment on the stretcher. would i make it? and i found that when i came back to work and wanted to go back to war zones, wanted to go back to doing what i used to do, that many people, my parents were the first ones that i had to fight, but then the large rer community thought that they sort of had to protect me and were also worried that maybe would i get post-traumatic stress disord disord disorder. i got what is more common. it's called post-traumatic growth. you've been through something awful and you know how to deal with trauma. you got the wisdom from that and you want to get on with your life. sfwh whatever it is you might experience, you want to as a journalist, go back and explore that. that is what you do.

you can understand why your parents might have been a little hesitant, correct? >> i can, but you know what i've found is that community of actually, it was the military that really understood my drive to get back and a lot of the troops i would speak to said they also found this, where they come back to the states. sometimes come back, retire from military and want to get a b job and find that people didn't understand their experience overseas. had possibly made them, made a lot of them much stronger. >> well, and maybe even better. i haven't seen one bad experience certainly that i've seen people close to me confront that hasn't made me better. i would think there is a parallel between your experience and what you're seeing, the friction, the consternation, or even the lacking of interest in veterans who come home and have so much to offer just because they might have been through something like you've been through. just because they've actually

been in the heat of battle. that they bring home skills that us common americans just simply don't have. >> you know, and i think part of this, part of the reason the public thinks this way is that we in the media have done such a great job in telling the story of troops who need help. we haven't done a great job of telling the story of troops who want to contribute. >> it's in the concept of look what they can bring to the table. zbr the sense that we you the troops coming home this huge debt. which is true, but we run the risk of treating them like a charity case. we'll be reintegrating tens of thousands of people. it's almost like the david petraeus, sort of iconic figures get a lot of attention. also the people who just went

over, got great experience, became great leader, came back and our country doesn't know what to do with them. >> and that's why i thought it was my responsibility to be a bit of a loud mouth, talk about the stuff that makes people really uncomfortable. i went through that evolution, a form of that fight. the other reason i brought out the book, it's a very graphic, step by step here's what happens in the hospital. at a bomb scene. i tell military wives and spouses, this is what your husband won't tell you happens in the field and they were asking me for copies in the military hospitals to hand out, so i'm like, okay, i really don't want to keep getting thought of as bomb girl, but i'll do this. >> not in a crass way. >> i got to go back to afghanistan with special operations forces. got to go back to the field. was really, really cool to be,

you know, nobody's asking me, how are you doing. they're expecting me to carry my weight. i'm back doing what i love and that's also the message i want to send forward. >> that's fair enough. wes? >> so far this year, the only jobs bill that's been passed is the vow to hire heroes act. so employers can get the benefits of hiring veterans. what are you hoping that all people understand about the skill set these men and women are bringing back home? >> think about when you hire someone that's been in a war zone. whether they're under fire or have been on a forward operating base constantly under the threat of fire. they are stress tested in the extreme. they will be able to handle whatever you throw at thome. they might not understand right away the civilian business world versus the military world. i know the military's working on helping people transition and

get that, but they bring the personnel skill set of how to work as a team. there's also that sense of mission and loyalty to the person who's to your left and right. that you know, this society can sometimes back in the states be a little bit disconnected from that. it's not that people are not in team spirited, but they don't have that example. in the military, diplomatic corp., same way. you rely op the people around you and you work to build that team. >> so, i would say that you know, i don't think anyone here at this table looks at you as bomb girl, but we look at you as someone who knows firsthand, what our men and women, so many of them injured so severely in these wars, what they endure and what their families endure. in closing, i want to ask, you're now working for the a.p. you broke the navy s.e.a.l. story and others i'm sure. >> bin laden raid.

>> how has your reporting changed? >> better, more closely. i can put myself in somebody b else's shoes better than i could before and especially when it's covering someone in the military, i've now stepped through the looking glass, lived part of their lives and now step back. the other thing is they let me be critical. they understand. they're like, okay, you understand. you've walked this our boots for a little while. if you say this is something we need to take another look at, we'll listen. >> i'm completely impressed and so glad to see you. it was wonderful to see you at that event in washington. i'm glad we got you back on the show. >> thank you for having me. >> wes and dan, thank you very much. the book is now out in paper back. next, when the thanksgiving leftovers run out, will americans go back to eating out? how the economy is impacting dining out next with the

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in olden times when pilgrims

wore belts on their hats, thanksgiving used to be the one day of the year people overate and now, we do it all 365 days. >> ain't that the truth. welcome back to "morning joe." 34 past the hour. >> interesting items this this book. >> i know. can i introduce it first? joining us now, co-chair of the zagat survey, tim zagat. >> it's the bible. >> it's the bible. >> it's the bible of eating out. but also other fascinating stats here. i want to start with this one. very interesting. you would think in tough economic times, people would be tipping less. they're not. >> consistently going up for the last ten years nationwide. we're surveying about 200,000 people a year. and it goes up by about a tenth of a point an i thought it would

tail off. >> getting close to 20%. everybody that i know tips 20%. that's just sort of pro forma. when did it move from -- i remember it moved from 10 to 15 but when did it move from 15 to 20? >> about five years ago, double tax in new york. then i saw the results and we were already about 18 plus percent. and so, i realized i was being cheap. and now, it's pretty much everybody knows that you're going to tip close to 20%. and it's been very, very gradual. >> yeah. >> you also have stats, for instance, people in houston eat out more than people in philadelphia. what cities really, because willie and i go out and eat every night, together. >> oh, yeah, together. >> but what cities love to eat out? who are the kings of -- >> you know, the reason more

people eat out more in texas and all the cities in texas, that's true. is everybody throws the kids in the back of the station wagon and they go out to a family restaurant and in new york, what happens is often, they go to a local deli or something. they buy food and take it in. >> and that's today's eating in. >> so it's basically, we don't eat out as often, but we do take out more. >> we've tackled the most critical question in mika's sbo introduction. >> it's zagat like the cat in the hat and that's all. last year, around this time, i got -- picked up the phone and somebody said i'd like to order some zagats. as long as they buy it, it's fine. but i said, actually, i was a

little tired and i said, look, it's zagat. he said, don't tell me, i know tim zagat. >> we'll get back to the book, but your personal story in your business are incredible. you and your wife were attorneys. >> still are. >> you started taking restaurant recommendations from friends. how did it go from there? >> it started very small with 200 people back in 1979, then we got up to a point two or three years later, giving it away. and my wife, who is financially responsible, said you can't keep on doing this. it's too expensive. let's make it tax deductible and we started selling it. >> what was the tipping point that you just knew? >> the tipping point was in 1985, there was a cover story in new york magazine and we went from doing 40,000 copies a year, which was more than "the new york times" by the way, to

75,000 copies a month. >> wow. >> and we hadn't been able to convince any publisher to touch it and i had two that reported to me at my job at the time, so when you get turned down by people who report to you, you know you've got a little problem. in 1985, suddenly, we were making more money doing our hobby than we were practicing law as a business. >> wow. >> so now, you've sold the company to google. what's it like? >> it's wonderful. >> do you know what i eat every night? like google food finders? >> we're going to be all over the place in terms of food. it's like having a rocket strapped on your back. originally, i told somebody it was like having a rocket under you and they said they didn't like the metaphor very much. >> let's ask the question. what is your -- if you could only go to one restaurant for the rest of this year, what's

your favorite restaurant? >> i would hate to have to go to the same restaurant. in fact, the whole point of what we do is we assume that you and ourselves are looking different things every night. who are you going out with? >> he's not going to answer the question. >> let me tell you something -- >> what restaurant right now. let's say you had a very special occasion. which restaurant would you pick right now? >> probably manetta tavern. but i might tomorrow want to go to john george. >> what's your one restaurant? >> and he can always get a table. >> steve, what's your one restaurant in new york right now? >> manetta tower. >> mika? >> i need to go out once in a

while to eat. i'll let you know. >> but you want to find the right restaurant for the right night and for who you're going out with. that's why you need a decent guide and we like to try to be helpful in making smart decisions. >> joe? >> it's mcdonald's on columbus and 71st. >> and based on the numbers, you're probably going to be with the majority of the people. we're surveying right now fast food changes and mcdonald's has 33,000 outlets. that tells you something about what americans taste is. >> also what they can afford. >> thank you so much. next, new charts. >> personal friend of mine.

[ knock on door ] cool. you found it. wow. nice place. yeah. [ chuckles ] the family thinks i'm out shipping these. smooth move. you used priority mail flat rate boxes. if it fits, it ships for a low, flat rate. paid for postage online and arranged a free pickup. and i'm gonna track them online, too. nice. between those boxes and this place, i'm totally staying sane this year. do i smell snickerdoodles? maybe. [ timer dings ] got to go. priority mail flat rate shipping at usps.com. a simpler way to ship.

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for this morning's business before the bell, we're going to have steve. >> where's melissa? did she have to go printing money? >> she's going shopping. >> it must be nice. >> melissa. >> what did i say? michelle. >> i'm sick. >> unbelievable. >> i'm sorry, mindy. go ahead. >> steve, pleas show us your charts. we'll start with household debt. >> well, so the point we want to talk about is why household debt prevents consumers what we'd like them to spend in order to help the economy. if you need to save, you can't spend, if you spend, you can't save. the first chart here shows what's happened to household debt in this country and it started back at, back in the '70s in this 40 kind of percent

level and then it started to go up and up and up and part of what droef it up was the increase in house prices. people felt they were very wealthy because house prices were going up, so we took on more debt and we got to almost 100% here and then when the recession hit, it started to head down and it's now down around this 89% level. >> look at that. turn of the century, just a straight line up. >> because people thought they were so wealthy because of their increase in house prices. now to put this in context, in europe, most countries at around 40 to 60%. around 40 to 60% of household debt and then i can't clear my charts for some reason. >> that's because t.j.'s in charge. what does that mean compared to us? >> going back to another one orally, we were at 100%.

most european countries at 40%. so we are overleveraged as households. yohow it happened. we used to save in this sort of 10% kind of range, then it dropped and dropped and dropped. sort of the inverse of the last chart. as debt goes up, savings go down. >> now, politicians in the short run love when the personal savings rate goes down. because that means consumers are spending a lot of money. the economy's humming along and everything's fine until september 15th, 2008 comes. then we get a zero percent savings rate. >> right at the top of the bubble and then people get scared. house prices are going down. they're losing their home equity and they start to save again. it got up to about six percent and now is drifting down. germans save about 10% of their income. chinese save about 40% of their

income and savings is investm t investment. what gives you the means to ultimately pay for your retirement, invest and help the economy grow. this last chart illustrates the, what the effect of this is on consumer spending. you see consumer spending going up and then it hits this recession and it goes down. this is the biggest decline we've seen in modern history. it's gone up a little bit, but you've got this huge gap here. let you and i would look at this and say in the long run, it is a very good thing that our americans savings rate has gone from zero percent to 5% and i'd like us to be back at 10%. that said in the short run, that hurts the economy. that drives down demand. that means less people are going to go back to work, right? >> that gap we looked at between the trend line and what happened is a trillion dollars of spending that is not occurring. >> a trillion dollars. >> and some economists, two recently calculated that that is

equal to, that created about 65% of the job losses that we had over the last two years. so it's a paradox because we didn't want those job losses, but people have to spend, deleverage and get their balance sheets back. >> steve, bottom line is, we're in a period of deleveraging. politicians won't say it, but we are in an era that's going to be every bit as painful as the last 25 years were plentiful. >> that's correct. we have an overleveraged sector and until we deal with that, we are going to have a slow recovery at best. >> thanksgiving shopping. >> up next, the best of late night. we'll be right back. let's go to vegas. alright, let's do it.

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hear about this jimmy fallon, michele bachmann thing? not good. jimny knew nothing about this. >> michele bachmann was a guest on monday night. the song choice by his house band the roots during her

introduction is getting a lot of attention. here's what it sounded like. >> please welcome to the show, michele bachmann. ♪ thank you for coming on our show. >> you wouldn't know it from that, but that was the roots' rendition of a fish bone song. the first word of the song is lying, the next two words, ab. before it aired, quest love tweeted this. he said late night fans, you love it when we snark. this next one takes the cake. ask around because i ain't tweeting the title. after the show, there was big backlash. quest love issued this statement. it was a tongue and cheek

decision. i feel bad if her feelings were hut. >> come on. if her feelings were hurt? >> jimmy fallon said quest love the grounded. then got more serious saying i'm honored that michele bachmann was on our show yesterday. i'm so sorry about the intro mess. >> and there's tho way that jimmy would have known that. >> part of why that show is great is because of the roots. they're a great band. they can play anything you want and they freelance and did something jimmy didn't know about. >> that was way over the line. >> way over. ugly. up next, what we learned. [ gasps ] that's doris!

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he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event. what is that? who's singing here? welcome back to "morning joe." mika, what did you learn? >> well, i am thankful as we talk about thanksgiving for having our "morning joe" family back together again. you went through a lot and it's not just you i'm talking about. actually also talking about dan and lauren. back in the "morning joe" family. also fantastic to have joe back as well.