when my oyees are happy, my customers are happy. vo: earn points for the things you're already buying. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. hello from new york. i'm chris hayes. this is the sunday edition of "up." we had a program yesterday that was awesome. the three american students arrested in egypt arrived home overnight. pakistan buried 24 soldiers killed in yesterday's nato helicopter attack. the circumstances remain unclear. u.s. and nato express regret. with me today, i have msnbc columnist ezra klein, and

michaela returning to the program. maria kumar, the executive director and making a due bu appearance maya. all right. first, the big news out of washington, d.c. what they will be talking about on the sunday shows today. the supercommittee failed and the nation mourns. maya mourns. she came in all black. the next big date on the budget agenda is january 1, 2013. ezra pointed out, automatic spending curtailments kick in including a $600 billion. an automatic tax increase kicks in as all bush tax cuts are set to expire. the good news, according to the

policy priorities, the deficit will be reduced by $7 trillion over seven years. that's also the bad news. $7 trillion in cuts and tax hikes hit the economy while it's shaky, we could be thrown back into another recession. maya, you are devoted much of your career to trying to get lower deficits and lower debt. i wonder whether you are heartened by the fact that with the supercommittee's failure these triggers are in place to produce the $7 trillion -- >> right. i think it's great the triggers are there. it's pushing us to do more in the next year. i don't think we can take the year off. no, those are not the right way to do policies. this is kind of a blunt tool especially on the spending side. across the board spending cuts are not how we want to fix the budget. what we want to do is think

about what's working, what's not. how to faze in changes. focus on consumption spending. automatic across the board. the $7 trillion number is not realistic. if we do nothing, all the policies will change. the middle class tax cuts disappear. nobody is arguing for that. getting rid of the alternative minimum tax patch or the dock fix of medicare. they ever policies nobody wants. it's like holding your own child hostage. it's not that effective. to your point about $7 trillion, $4 trillion is what we should be focused on saving. $7 trillion is great but i don't think it's right. you don't want abrupt changes when the economy is weak. do it gradually over ten years and allow fiscal space up front to allow more means to help the

economy recover. we are not going to get that without a package. >> i was gearing up to argue with you. that was more or less -- >> the thing that maya brought up, i have written a lot ant this. a lot more tax increases than they have talked about thus far. one problem is it isn't good for the recovery. it locks in automatically. year one is deep in cuts as year ten. year one is going to be rough for the economy if you believe the projections. the other thing that is important is that deficit reduction, which nobody likes, austerity nobody wants can be an opportunity to reform programs that aren't good. in 1997, it was a balanced budget act that created the

children's health insurance program. it gives insurance to millions and millions of children across the country. the fiscal commissioner have come up with thoughtful ways of reimagining parts of the federal government. they had a consumption tax to move to the tax code. they did a lot of thinking about the defense code. if we do none of that, we don't get the opportunity. >> i want to respond on priorities. we can have an academic conversation. it's more than academic. there's a supercommittee about what they project and long term fiscal projections. having this conversation right now is like someone coming to the emergency room with three gunshot wounds and telling them they need to cut down on the milk shake and fries they are eating. the economy is in the worst employment crisis in 80 years. this whole conversation is happening totally detached from

anyone motivating anything aside from the american jobs act, which is at the margins of the problem, doing something about that. it's just remarkable to me how much we aren't talking about the pressing need for agate demand. >> when i was listening to ezra, there could be some, you know, possibilities. i just, some people see the failure as victory. it's something this president did. you know, so are we able to ever find any kind of compromise or any kind of victory or some kind of gift out of this with this current group? can we find any possibility? just because it's obama's supercommittee, it's a victory to some that it failed. anything failing is a victory. >> i think it's a bit larger in the sense that when obama says i have a clear path to possibly winning because the republican nominees are such a mess. not only does he have to win for

himself, but he has to have a strong congress that can move forward. i think when you are talking the supercommittee failure, the problem is, it's like the boy who cried wolf. all of a sudden, everybody was saying if you can't figure it out with the supercommittee, we are going to fail, completely. the economy is going to go into shambles. the american people are like again? once again they are getting used to failure. they are getting used to people being noncommittal. when you look at the polls, the ones who lost big are the republican party because of the -- go ahead. >> i want to say that i think failure is a good thing. i'm pro-failure in terms of the supercommittee. we agree on that. i'm going explain why after this break. [ female announcer ] secret scent expressions

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my story of the week, the failure of the so-called supercommittee. they failed to reach a long term agreement to cut spending. a pundit class that loves nothing more than to shake their head at compromise and when wise men from both sides of the aisle could come together. maybe you can tell i don't feel the same way. their failure is the least surprising political development since newt gingrich said something pompous. legislatures created the supercommittee, which was the same hopelessly deadlocked o larized body come plized of republicans and democrats. the republican party is committed to never raising taxes on wealthy people, ever, even if

they get ten times as much in spending cuts. remember this? >> raise your hand if you feel so strongly about not raising taxes, you would walk away on a 10-1 deal. for the record, they are all raising their hand. the enterprise failed. i say good riddance. the supercommittee represented an elite distrust of democracy. the ceaseless call for social insurance and jobs. the desire to put in power the hands of the elite. interestingly enough, i encountered the blueprint of this from timothy geithner. her talked about the long term fiscal problems and said the following. >> the critical test for us should be can we find a way to lock in multiyear committees to a responsible path. >> locking in multiyear

committees is more or less precisely what the president managed to craft during the deal. a series of cuts that kick in no matter how sluggish the economy and how many millions remain unemployed. it struck me at the time the desire for majorities was a deeply undemocratic impulse. it's not a surprising one. in the shock doctrine the way the imf and others contrive to push through unpopular acts on the safety net when normal politics can be unsuspended. they take the helm in italy and greece. strap the patient to the gurney so it doesn't squirm. we are at a moment when

advocates of the supercommittee and critics agree our political system is dysfunctional. the austerity class thinks it's too much and i think it's too little. those who celebrate supercommittees believe elites, if insulateed from the populous can pursue the long term public interest. it shows quite the opposite. in the absence of accountability, elites will wreak havoc. we need more democracy back in the hands of citizens. it's the force that's driving occupy wall street. if you want to see what a mere image might look like, attend the general assembly, if it hasn't been broken up in your city or town yet. they don't outsource. it's gruelling, tedious and loaded with conflict. it's what democracy looks like. as utopian as it may sound, i

have more hope in that process than a dozen wise old men and women, mostly men, meeting in a room on capitol hill. all right. that's my take. >> okay. >> can we talk about the process about the notion that we are going to come up with a solution here through this kind of blue ribbon panel, whether it's simpson-bowles. the notion is insulate them and maybe you can get a deal. there's something deeply problematic about that. >> i'm so excited to take this opportunity. i think you have set up a dichotomy that isn't necessarily accurate. the supercommittee, i agree didn't have a chance for success or a high one. it was popular. compromise is popular in this political system. the lame duck system, that was popular. what keeps the compromises from happening is the fact that the

bases of the republican party and that is -- they keep those sorts of compromises from happening. they are obviously big on the show. he does not represent most americans. to say we don't have a national process of referendum, we have a political system that makes it very, very easy for special interests to hijack the agenda, they do it with great efficie y efficiency. i don't think these committees are an effort to insulate. i think what they are is an effort to insulate from the interests so they can do something, if you look at the polls is a more popular outcome. >> that's a fair point. two things on that. one is that compromise, bipartisan compromise always polls exceedingly well. it's like polling on puppies and apple pie. do you want them to work

together? yes. the things that get votes 80-20 in the senate are not always that popular, right? so, the iraq war -- >> the iraq war was not unpopular. >> it was not 80-20 popular. >> i also think we are in a different point and time right now. because you have the basis so polarized, going behind closed doors saying we are going to leave their agendas behind and try to hash out. you have seen it historically across congress since its beginning, right? recognizing you need that quiet time. what failed here is the quiet time and that opportunity to really discuss and get into the meat and heart of the matter never happened. people were leaking, right? >> also because, let me say, there's asymmetrical polarization. there's not the same polarization on both sides. the commitment on the part of -- this is something political scientists have done work on to

demonstrate there is, to the best you can measure things. there is asymmetrical polarization. the tape i played, the 10-1 c p compromi compromise. when we look at it, the center moves further and further to the right as time goes on. >> it's become ideological. it's become religion. i's hard to to have this. >> i disagree with you. i think there are times going less democratic in terms of getting hard things done is helpful. it's easy for democracy. look where we got in the past ten years. it's fun to spend a lot of money and not pay for it. cleaning up the mess is more difficult. if you look at health care, if members of congress don't make choices on their own, we do it automatic. >> explain ipad. they are going to look at different procedures and effectiveness of what works and

what doesn't and price them according toly. >> thank you for explaining. it's a way to take hard choices away from congress. they don't make the hard choices. the bipartisan deal they made a year ago was cut more taxes. both sides agreed to that. that's the easy stuff. for the hard stuff, they need a jump to go behind closed doors and make hard choices. i'm the biggest cheerleader of bowles-simpson. i think it was phenomenal. chris! >> i'm glad you are going there. >> i think it wiz great. there were low expectations and has bipartisan support. but, the problem was you never did get house republicans to support it. you object to that but it means they have to move to the right. they should have embraced it earlier on in the process. it's been moving to the right since then. it's going to happen until we

move forward. >> paul ryan himself sat on bowles-simpson and is the republican image of austerity. social insurance, i like to call it. paul ryan voted against it. let's talk about that. let's talk about that right after this break. >> okay. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ you feel it working, so you know it's working.

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♪ i think about you day and night ♪ ♪ it's only right ♪ to think about the girl you love ♪ ♪ and hold her tight ♪ so happy together [ male announcer ] when life changes, so can your insurances needs. use travelers free guide to better coverage to stay prepared. is your auto and home insurance keeping up with you? contact your local travelers agent, or call 800-my-coverage. all right. we are in the thick of the conversation about supercommittee and democracy and process and long term fiscal projections. i want to quickly throw a poll up to give grounding to where popular opinion is. it's difficult to discern with these questions. at some level, people's preferences are soft and abstract. it's not something, even if people say something in a poll,

it's not like other issues like immigration that gets people red in the cheeks and out in the streets and fired up. they should be viewed through that lens. that said, deficit plan poll, these are preferences. increased taxes on high income americans comes in as the most popular way to close budget deaf sises. changes to social security and medicare, 41%. major cuts to military spending, 40%. those are the main items in this. ezra, you wanted to respond to something maya said. >> right. we were talking about the paul ryan plan. he gets a lot of credit for putting in reforms. privatetize medicare. the plan, we can argue about whether or not it's a good idea. the numbers came from doing something called -- it set the rate of growth, the check you got to inflation. it will never work.

it's 2% a year. everybody knows, the cbo looked at this, everybody knows that those numbers don't work. the plan would expose it over time. he said what they knew was a cap that wouldn't work so they didn't have to raise taxes in the plan. that, i thought was not an honest way to go about it. >> structurally we have to control health care costs at some level. not as aggressively as his plan. what he did, i think, is set up revenues are part of the solution. when you get more realistic, health care has to grow slower than it has been but faster than the economy. all those things in the poll have to be done. we have to tax the well off, the middle class and reform health care, social security, cut defense. they all have to be there. for a realistic plan to reach a target. >> a whole group of people bow like it's god to never raise

taxes, ever. we are taking like we are not in the most extraordinary -- we are in an extraordinary environment with people. it's so much easier to destroy than create. we are asking them to create things and they are not taking into account what was destroyed. >> let me play a sound from rick perry. you are talking about asemitri. after they bowed to the plan, saying if the supercommittee fails, there's going to be cuts split between things democrats like and things republicans like. here is rick perry. hus he is one of many voicing objections and others saying actually now the supercommittee failed we are going to undue it. here is rick perry saying how he feels about cuts to military spending. >> it was rep henceable for me, for this president to stand in

front of americans and to say that half a trillion dollars, $500 million plus is not going to be on the table and we are going to have to work our way through it, putting young men and women's lives at jeopardy. if leon panetta is an honorable man, he should resign and protest. >> i think you can do military cuts that would put in jeopardy the three course lunches and spare the lives of our heroic men and woman who serve in the forces. >> the point is, we talked about this, it's a bad way to do policy. you don't get around it by getting rid of it. it's the hammer that is going to push us to do something thoughtful. we have a year to put in place a thoughtful plan to reduce the deficit and stabilize the debt. >> you are being rational. no, no, really. >> there really are people working on it.

>> that's it. >> if we are defending the paul ryan plan on the grounds that it shows taxes would be needed. then we need people to step up and do taxes. i know you say toomey did it. he said i will give you taxes for tax cuts. if i say i'll give you a buck if you give me ten. i'm not progiving money. i'm pro you giving me money. >> this is actually true of all the plans out there. they all take a tax reform proposal. we have been fighting about the bush tax cuts for over a decade now. it's time to put it to rest and replace it with a better tax system. it's what bowles-simpson did. the toomey plan doesn't raise enough revenues. we are going to get rid of the

issue of the bush tax cuts. that discussion got started and we have to continue that. >> here is where we are sort of zooming in on the disagreement in terms of -- not just on the substance of it but our conceptions of what is workable. i think you see that as a difference in degree and i see it as a difference in kind. you think, oh, they started the conversation because they put $300 billion on the table. a democratic aid told some reporter it's like leaving a dime for a tip. don't bother. i see it as actually just another example of -- >> i think we moved out of black and white to gray. it's a shade of gray. >> when we come back after this break, exciting news. this is the best cable news team ever. ezra has a graph for show and tell. let's go to vegas. alright, let's do it. let's do it, let's go to vegas. vegas baby!

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a little ted leo, one of my favorite artists i follow on twitter. >> and hawkish on the deficit. >> critical of the ryan plan. ezra, show and tell, you brought a graph to share with the class today. >> i brought a graph. what you are seeing on the screen is a chart of taxes and spending cuts so far. we begin with ryan. ryan is what you see there. cut taxes by $600 billion. i think that's what you are seeing. it was a very, very big spending cut and negative tax increases. then you are going to see the obama response. this is the plan obama brought out in april. it's smaller overall. it's more balanced between taxes and spending. i's $1 trillion in taxes or so.

$1.5 trillion. then look what happens if we do nothing. what is actually happening in the conversation. by doing nothing, you will see taxes of about $3.8 trillion and spending cuts of $1.2 trillion. >> the spending cuts divided -- >> largely on the pentagon. what is remarkable about that. these are two triggers republicans help set. the first is the bush tax cuts. republicans want to pass through budget reconciliation. the spending trigger has no taxes in it. it's so progressively distributed. republicans are willing to agree to progressive spending cuts. they thought somewhere along the way they would cut a better deal. they have not been willing to take yes on a deal. if they do nothing, if they keep disagreeing, even if democrats never say let's do a dual

trigger, if they disagree and never come to an agreement, that is what happens. it's their worst nightmare. >> it starts 2013. it's the multidimensional chess theory. numerous steps ahead of the opposition and they have very wisely put them into this position where their back is up against the wall. now, they are facing, if nothing happens an increase in taxes. the issue, however, is that as my -- i like your phrase, taking a child hostage. >> i hope the kids aren't watching. >> you are saying it's not effective. >> if it were effective -- >> democrats have said we are not going raise taxes on the middle class. they have already opened the window on the dual trigger. that only works as a negotiating technique and imposing a move toward a more progressive vision of a budget measure if you

believe the democrats in congress and the white house are going to let the thing expire. they have said they are not going to. >> i agree they don't want to let it expire. imagine they really wanted to let it expire. it's unpopular. it's middle class folks, hits low income folks. when you say i want to raise $3.8 trillion on the american people or the republicans won't raise taxes on the rich. a plan that cuts taxes on the rich again. then you would, at the end, allow them to expire. republicans won't make a deal with you. they go up. it's the republicans fought. here is obama saying just that. i'm going to come to you in a second. obama threatening a veto. if you try to sequester, i'm going to vo toe anything you come up with. >> already some in congress are trying to undue these automatic spending cuts. my message to them is simple.

no. i will veto any effort to get rid of those automatic spending cuts domestic and defense spending. there will be no easy off ramps on this one. >> maya, you want to respond? >> i think the moment for three dimensional chess and veto is so past. this really is an important issue. you asked about why aren't we focusing on jobs and economic growth. the high debt levels are draining economic growth. all of this, in the end this is a moment. this is a moment for bringing the country together and saying we have to move forward. nobody is going to get their favorite plan. i wanted to say the optimistic part is there are members in the senate, 45 members in the senate and 100 in the house that said we want a solution. >> they have to tell the people. frustration is -- >> there are going to be people who say, if they can't fix

what's broken, we need to take over and work on it in the coming months to work on a plan. >> it's so frustrating to real people. do you know what i mean when they talk about compromise and it doesn't happen. after a certain point, people are already blowing. they are blowing. >> you are seeing changes in the senate and house. look at the people working together. move the ball forward. we can't look at this as strategy and polarization. it's a plan that's smart and grows the economy. there's a doable way to get there. >> i'll take a per ogtive to say the kurpt prosecute jexs of deficits are incredibly unclear. people have been warning us interest rates are going to go up, they are going up and they don't go up. in fact, the deepest, most liquid markets around the world are for u.s. treasuries. the supply and demand is saying something clear about what it's

pricing the debt at. >> we have not a good fiscal play right now. >> the deepest -- the most intense price mechanism -- >> they don't want to wait until it's too late. look at europe. >> the other thing i want to say is this. everything you have said about the long term budget projections, i believe firmly with my heart about climate change. i would love to wave a magic wand that creates a situation where we are having this discussion and these kind of mechanics and putting together this editorial page fire power to deal with that problem. at the end of the day, balance numbers on a ledger are hard to change around. at the end of the day, you can move money. you cannot take carbon out of the air. if we were serious about getting ahead. i think, in my humble opinion, the most challenging problem we face isn't accounting. >> your point is we don't do good long term policy.

democracy my or may not be working well. it's taken over. it's important for all those issues. >> i agree on that. president obama meets with leaders tomorrow. what can they accomplish? that's up next. covergirls -- set your lashes free. new natureluxe mousse mascara! we took out a heavy synthetic and put in a light touch of beeswax. up with the volume, down with the weight. new natureluxe mousse mascara. easy breezy beautiful covergirl.

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s all right, on wednesday, germany had a bond sale. almost half of the bonds went unsold. that is the most boring introever. >> it's important to recognize, it was shocking to international global financial markets that the bonds did not sell. it shows where the crisis in europe is now. the best thing is look at it as a contagion. it spreads like a virus. the fact germany was not able to sell bonds means the panic is now in the european market, it threatened to mutate.

it is attacking the heart, the core of the body in the euro zone. it's a crisis that looks familiar. we have seen it before in latin america and asia. given our interconnectiveness, a market collapse in europe will take the economy down with it. that's the conversation tomorrow when leaders meet with president obama in washington. i have with me, rejoining me, robert johnson, a leading expert on global finance. served under a nobel prize winner on the u.n. commission on monetary reform. it's great to have you back on the program. >> a pleasure to be here. >> say you were meeting with leaders tomorrow coming to the white house. i know people in the white house and the people in the upper echelons of american government, this is tremendous for them because i think we don't cover it that much in the american media. we don't keep our eyes on it. it's confusing, talking bond

yields. at the end of the day an end to the crisis in europe. what would you be telling leaders about the way out of this crisis? >> you are killing yourselves. you are killing us. everybody has to throw away the resources. it's a containable problem in europe, china and the united states have to bring in resources. bring something to play. you can restructure, you can reflat or do austerity. austerity doesn't work. take back the g-20 from toronto. >> austerity has been a way european leaders responded to the crisis. it's been a combination of austerity and rescue packages kind of like minit.a.r.p.s. what's happening is if you are not paying attention to this, it pops up. greece is in trouble, in

turmoil, there's riots in the streets then it calms down. then another crisis. then italy, berlusconi falls. >> germany is different, i think, because of the power that it is. >> yes. >> germany was the backbone of this whole thing. >> yes. >> when the german bonds don't make it, i think merkel is going to to have a time of keeping her citizens quiet. they were already skeptical of europe. they are the worker bees. that's the mythology. but then i think they are really concerned when you say everyone has to throw money at it, the other debtors. what is portugal and spain really going to bring? germany is different than greece sliding. >> right. fundamentally, the issue is the

fact that there's going to have to be transfers here, right? >> yes. >> there are losses on the table. this is the problem. there's losses on the table and a game of musical chairs. >> unnecessary losses on the table. they do the bernanke, the bailout, then the common fiscal policy going forward so people feel reassured no country is out of control and put the burden on everyone else. it's to reassure people. right now, the other thing you need is to recognize one of the biggest causes of deficits is idle resources. reducing output gaps. they talk about a new deal to go to climate change. we need programs to put people back to work. social instability is here. it's getting bigger around the corner. >> is there a way to make the case for that? the move has been one of austerity. we know the italian government

put into place, a caretaker government coming after berlusconi is with austerity. greece is facing another round of it. there's not an appetite in europe as the american congress or the republican party for the stimulation. >> people who are fond of calvinists have a hard time taking it off. it's representation of fear. right now, they are afraid as david would say, we are burning down the house. >> explain that idea of the calvinist morality. it's attractive across the spectrum. we have sinned and now we must pay for that sin, right? we have sinned. the credit bubble was sin. getting houses we couldn't afford was sin. the way we pay for sin is penance. that's austerity. there's a moral balance to the

story. >> the other dimension of it is the jubilee. >> right. >> the debt restructuring. getting out from under the overhang. forgiving whoever caused the problems, not wallowing in it. >> jubilee means forgiveness. to me, my understanding is that is the key. germany and france forgive the people who don't have money in europe. >> go back to the supercommittees and everything else. the problem we have in our society, in this financial society, we are not set up to politically represent the debtors. we are all about the creditors. >> great point. we'll talk about that after this break. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation,

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a question for rob johnson. i want to make a point adds we brainstorm how to avoid a financial crisis.

>> we solved over the commercial break. this isn't just an economic crisis or a financial or moral one. it's political. they don't have what we have in this country, a united union. they can't run a stimulus package all over europe. they don't have the cultural bonds. it's like nevada having a housing bubble and texas and new york saying this is a problem. itis not our problem. it's the biggest thing. it's not an economic problem without solutions. as you say, there are things they could do. the problem is, the relevant countries won't let them. to make changes that allow it to happen, you need full unanimity from the euro zone countries. we can't get a jobs vote through the u.s. senate or the house. the idea of getting the e vif lent of every state in the union to agree to make a change to move resources from one state to another is awe inspiring

difficult. >> we have a dysfunctional union. people hand out bonuses. they don't even have that. >> since you raise that, our tape cutters on staff slaved for days and days and days to put together this very long montage of the different republican candidates talking about their vision way out of the crisis. 11 debates and campaign speeches. they have been talking ability it nonstop. here is what they have to say. >> at least they are not speaking falsely. >> that's right. it points to the fact that both the politics of this are very difficult in europe and here. what you said in the beginning surprised me a bit.

i want to pick up on the u.s. has to put money on the table. if you are going to go, i mean, the bailouts for the american financial sector were unpopular enough, as we know. the fed, which did all sorts of global bailing out, to go -- barack obama to come away from a meeting to say hey, guess what? we are going to put money on the table seems toxic. >> it's completely toxic. by the way, most of the show dwelling on the supercommittee accepts the frame of the toxicity of the debate. we have to put it behind us. put idle resources back to work. if we sit and watch europe burn, we are sinking our own ship. >> whatever it takes to make sure europe does not burn. >> the basic problem is this. we are talking the jubilee, the asemitris. part of what we have is an

unregulated, monstrous sized financial system where you can't resolve something the size of the state of nevada. we have to recognize that reality. >> what continues is people who say we need to focus only on jobs and growth and put aside the need to break down the debt. isn't it better to have a plan in place and you can faze it in gradually for europe and here as well. we have the luxury of being the safe haven. we have the advantage of doing this because rates are low. do jobs measures up front. you have to put in place a plan to stabilize the debt. there's no stability in the economy. >> they saw that plan to stabilize the debt talked about, i didn't see the jobs plan. i didn't see the whole -- >> jobs being discussed now has a better chance of passing. >> it's getting lost in the mix. >> that was the thinking as we head into the supercommittee. by doing the deficit, we were

going to povt to jobs. we'll see the american jobs act. on the sidelines. rob johnson one of my favorite economic thinkers thank you very mch. we'll be right back. dumb luck? or good decisions? ones i've made. ones we've all made. about marriage. children. money. about tomorrow. here's to good decisions. who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our policyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there. congratulations. congratulations. today, the city of charlotte can use verizon technology to inspire businesses to conserve energy and monitor costs. making communities greener... congratulations. ... and buildings as valuable to the bottom line... whoa !

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good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. i have msnbc policy analyst ezra klein. msnbc contributor, maria kumar and an adviser from the clin white house. remedy and reaction, the peculiar struggle over health care reform. they told an insurance company that an almost 12% up crease was unreasonable. the affordable care act reviews

any double digit rate increase. with premiums skyrocketing, this is a good thing. the single most domestic policy achievement is the most polarizing. the public either hates the bill or doesn't know how it works. the supreme court agreed to rule on the constitutionality of it this year. they have pledged to repeal it. i want to show a clip, to give a taste of how republicans feel about what they call obama care. here are the republican candidates talking about it. >> we need to protect america and protect our troops and military and stop the idea of obama care. >> i'm for repealing obama care. >> repeal dodd-frank. the bill to repeal obama care. >> we cannot go forward with obama care. >> i will use an executive order to get rid of as much of obama care as i can on day one. >> a guaranteed line. because of this, you have the

unanimous pledge to attempt to repeal it, it is possible that the biggest overhaul of the nation's health care system in 50 years could be overturned by supreme court or a republican president or a combination there of. if you asked me 18 months ago, i would have said so. are you surprised by the state the affordable care act finds itself in? >> i'm not. we have been fighting over this issue for almost a century. the continuities in the battle are just overwhelming. if you listen to the republicans today, you can hear echoes of the campaign against medicare of the earlier fights against truman's plan. there's a continuing acrimony around health care. all the other democracies have put this issue to rest. it's only in the united states that conservatives equate public

financing of health care with a loss of freedom. it's a bizarre equation but it has characterized conservative thought for a long time. >> to show some of this, our crack segment producer found this cartoon from the truman years. this is something that, the communist system of health care that truman was proposing at the time. this is the conservative attack. socialized medicine is the puppeteer controlling the doctors. it's the same argument. >> yes. really, from the beginning and in the first campaign, for a public program for health care, the opponents associated with an enemy, germany at that time in world war i. then later the soviet union. this was an insidious way of inserting subbersive foreign influence into the united states. >> what do you account for?

there's a few different theories about why it is we have a contentious relationship to public health care. some has to do with the institutional make of the u.s., some has to do with the american exceptionalism and how we love freedom more than continental europe. what is yourout line for why it is we have had such a uniquely troubled history with it. >> the institutional obstacles are greater. you don't have to win one election, you have to win several elections in a row to bring about and consolidate a reform. we have a filibuster which we didn't have earlier. it's tougher now than it used to be. i think, really, the opponents in the first half of the 20th century, the american medical association succeeded in elevating their group interest into the larger ideological concerns. that has become a script for the

opposition for thinking about health care. americans don't think public financing of the schools is a loss of freedom. >> right. >> it's not automatic that americans come to think about health care this way. it's the legacy of the earlier battles. >> you have a great point when you talk about how we don't think of public financing of schools. if we did not have public financing of schools now, if a democrat tried to introduce it into the schools, it could be called socialized education and a plot by the leftists. >> we have public schools in the 19th century when americans were worried about americanizing immigrants. it created a set of institutions that shaped the way americans think about that. the past is still alive. it lives in our thinking. >> one of the fascinating discontinuities. we have rhetorical continuity. the policy changed dramatically.

we were part of the clinton reforms. at that time, the alternative is what we would call obama care. it was a plan with an individual mandate, a plan with subsidies and private health care options. it had the support of 20 to 30 republican senators. one was co-sponsored by graham. basically, obama democrats lifted that plan, figured they could get republican support. pass it as obama care. the plan is described in the same ways as the plans they were fighting against. my question is, are we seeing continuities in the way the two parties argue with each other? if it got consolidated, is it like medicare? conservatives are demanding democrats stop scaring americans into it? >> well, i could imagine the different scenario for this if

the republican party today were more like the republican party of 30 or 40 years ago. remember, when president nixon was in office, he proposed a universal insurance plan. it was really to the left of anything that -- basically. we came very close to an agreement. that was really the one great lost opportunity for a bipartisan settlement of health care. that opportunity was lost partly because of watergate. decade-by-decade the cost has gone up and the rank increased. we are further apart than we were. ezra is right to notice that the architecture of this legislation, the affordable care act we call it, is drawing from earlier republican proposals. most immediately from mitt romney's reform in massachusetts. >> one of the most important points you make in the book is the fact that the crucial aspect

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all right. paul, you just wrote a book about the affordable care act known on other sides of the aisle as pro-obama care. they decided to delay implementation of it. it's the signature achievement of the president, yet it's still an abstract notion. i don't know what, in my daily life as a regular citizen, i do

not know what obama care looks like. >> if the start update was january 1, 2012, we would have a totally different discussion right now because open enrollment would be going on all over the country. >> people would be in the exchanges. >> the date got pushed back for a variety of reasons, mainly fiscal reasons to reduce the cost that cbo estimated it would have. but, there were other alternatives. in particular, there was an option that would not have increased the cost that much. it would have been significant. it's called a rolling start. it would have let states come in when they were ready. the incentive for the states would have been enormous. they would have gotten the money sooner. it would have changed the politics in the states. instead of dragging their feet, they would have had a reason to act early. that is what came out. senator kennedy's old committee.

it was not the bill that eventually became the law. that is, to me, a great shame. >> you make the case in the book this may be the tail of the legislation. it may be the thing that ultimately does kill it because if a republican is elected, this great achievement that i still remember looking at the flicker set online, the president with his health care staff drinking champagne and feeling happy. it may be wiped out. >> yes. a republican president and congress could, in early 2013 pass a bill, a so-called budget reconciliation bill that would -- they don't need 60 votes in the senate, kill the subsidies, the medicaid expansion, effectively the major parts of the bill. >> if that was the -- maya you wanted to say something. let me ask first, if that's the biggest flaw in the bill, what

do you think was the biggest strength of it. what was the greatest achievement in the 18-month battle? >> change the way health care works in the united states for millions of people. especially people who buy insurance individually, through small businesses. they get the worst deal, the worst coverage for the worst prices. the insurance exchanges and the subsidies represents a tremendous benefit especially for low-wage workers and their families. the millions who have not had insurance and millions of people more who have lousy insurance and coverage would be improved because of the standards this bill sets. a lot of consumer protections. so, you know, i think this is the most significant legislation that benefits low-income americans that we passed in a very, very long time. >> maya? >> i agree with the

achievements. the exchanges in and of themss are important. the point would be when republicans, when bush came into office and republicans cut taxes before they dealt with the deficit, it left a poisonous atmosphere and they didn't want to work on issues. then democrats came in and put in a big entitlement program. republicans now don't want to play. my question is, where the health care was headed was it was going to have so many cost controlling measures and so many of them got lost along the way. we lost so many things that would be part of it. they are the hard things to do. how do we push for those now? we need to control cost. >> you start with a false e vif lent with what republicans and democrats did. they passed the medicare program without paying. >> i agree with you on that.

>> let me say this for history. paul ryan, mr. fiscal austerity cast the deciding vote. it was a one-vote margin. it was completely unfounded. paul ryan was the deciding vote to pass that. sorry, continue. >> democrats in shaping the affordable care act do pay for it. >> it's paid for which is great but we need to control costs. that's the other part. >> let's not just pass over that. democrats did meet. could there have been stronger cost control measures, yes, there could have. i favor that. but there are actually some very significant measures in this bill. the question would be, can they be carried out? republicans have been no help in carrying it out. >> we have to do more. my other question is we didn't do enough. >> we have a lot of things in here. the excise tax, cutting down the

exclusion from employer. it's largely in there. i want to make one ironic point here. the cost control measures in the architectural reform is pretty much completely in the affordable care. paul ryan gives subsidies that grow by a certain level. they go to the exchanges and use the power of the market, they save money, purchase better plans to pick better plans. there's a market incentive for the plans to get cheaper. that is how it works. if you believe paul ryan's plan will save money and believe it costs the cost of health insurance by two-thirds. if you believe he's right, there's no reason not to believe it will save vastly more money than projected to do. newt gingrich and paul ryan tell you, they don't score that competition. if you believe it works, the key cost control for republicans right now is in the affordable care act. >> i think we are getting too

much into this. i think there's actually a great opportunity here. i think there's a miscalculation by romney, if he touts obama care he's going to have the same type of election that happened in the midterms in 2010. it was a cross generational divide. young people didn't come out. they weren't paying attention. there's an opportunity for obama to stir up their base. >> it's one of the first things that did kick in. >> i think part of the miscalculation for the republican party is they think they are going into an election season of 2010 where the tea party base was all riled up and super excited. obama has better communication. you can't share what the big plan is and how it impacts you, it's a big deal. everybody here is pretty informed. what he needs to do is instead of walking away, feeling scared, he has to wrap himself around it and do it the way he's doing

with the job act. he's going locally, dominating the media in the states that matter. >> that's a good point. at this point, you can't be neutral, if you are the president on your domestic achieveme achievement. you have to run with it. pulitzer prize winner, your work is fantastic "remedy in reaction." thanks for coming by. >> appreciate it. >> we'll be right back. covergirls -- it's time to set your lashes free. new natureluxe mousse mascara! luxurious volume with a light-as-air feel. we took out a heavy synthetic and put in a light touch of beeswax. up with the volume, down with the weight. lashes are 20% lighter than the most expensive mascara. new natureluxe mousse mascara. so free your volume! and...your easy breezy beautiful covergirl. and try natureluxe glossbalm. ♪ i think i'm falling

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writer and activist, michaela is back with us. manchester union leader, i just ate that. they are announcing their endorsement, which i'm not sure how much of an effect it's going to have. given the fact the race does remain fairly fluid could have a large effect.

they are endorsing, drum roll, please. newt gingrich. newt gingrich. here is the money quote here. newt gingrich is by no means the perfect candidate. we call that ringing. that's the official terminology. republican primary voters too often make the mistake of preferring -- that candidate is newt gingrich. he is is experience to lead this country in trying times. he is worthy of support on january 10th. given mitt romney's fondness of taking quotes out of context, he can run an ad about newt gingrich is by no means the perfect candidate. >> newt gingrich is striving across the world. it's astonishing. >> anybody but mitt, right? it's clear he's going to be the

nominee. anybody but mitt. the fact they endorse someone without any executive experience. at the same time has so much personal and political baggage to boot is telling they are uncomfortable with who they know the nominee will be. >> new hampshire is romney's backyard, he had a home there and visits all the time. this is a place he is going to clean up. >> do you know if he won their endorsement, who won the endorsement in 2000? >> good question. can we google that? who won? >> i'm going to google that right now. >> you are going to come up with something interesting. it doesn't mean much. >> it was mccain last time. mccain heading into new hampshire was essentially dead in the water. >> that's true. >> we have another data point in the chart of the newt trend. my producer slid for me, bill clinton giving a phone interview

to news max, a right wing website praising newt gingrich. bill clinton and your people, we would be happy to have you on "up with chris hayes." call us up, tweet at me, we will have you on. >> that's richard's paper. they funded the deep investigations into clinton's past. the conspiracy theerties. clinton loves forgiveness and loves conciliatory things. he gives them interviews all the time. >> if we want bill clinton, i have to wait week in, week out and have this forgiveness phase. here is bill clinton talking ability newt gingrich. >> it's not any traditional sort of charisma, it's that he thinks about this stuff all the time. he's articulate and he tries to think of a conservative version of an idea that will solve a

legitimate problem. for example, last night, i watched the national security last night. newt said two things that would make an independent voter say i have to consider that. >> mcginness, you are an independent voter. are you feeling the pull of the newt momentum? >> primary season is not my time. i am rarely impressed with the leadership you see or the ability to talk tough. what clinton was saying is you want somebody to shake things up with big ideas. you are already laughing at me. >> no, i'm not. i'm smiling. >> this is not going to be the fun stuff on the table. people need real solutions for tough things. there's no easy answer for jobs. there's no one policy to put out there. you need the big thinking and nuance thinking. what i'm looking for, you are

still laughing at me chris. >> no, i'm not. >> i'm looking for somebody who can talk about why you need to do hard things to reflect and digs down a bit and brings the country together. that's why primaries don't work for me. i sit back and wait for the general. this is the give away time. the discussion is not serious. i think gingrich is a bold thinker. the leadership i am looking for is not reflected by anybody yet. >> those are good intros, both of those. i don't know how i would feel if i was gingrich. he's articulate. if you have to point out they are articulate it's scary. newt has good ideas but they can be dangerous. >> they are bad ideas. >> you can endorse cap and trade. endorse a health care plan with an individual mandate. he endorsed lots of ideas and he

abandoned them. he doesn't care about them. if newt gingrich of 2007 was running, he would be an excellent candidate. >> this is interesting. why is it the case, the one thing he's had to apologize for, he endorsed capital trade and appeared in an ad sitting with nancy pelosi and said that is stupid. he's been able to wriggle free of his previous things in a way that is impressively camille yan like. anyone but romney, which is the more right tea party friendly candidate in the race. particularly the immigration ansz. i'm amazed he's able to be teflon about the whole thing. >> it's sticking to mitt romney, right? he's the big flip-flopper. that's the headline when he walks into the room. i can wiggle out of here, too.

>> everyone else is a cartoon character. it really is -- >> they are human beings. they are human beings. even republicans are human beings. >> really, when it's a notable thing. that one is articulate. >> the problem still is, in this moment, we have complicated issues. if you are going to talk monetary policy, you don't get the answers you need to understand what's going on. or the discussion about europe, you need to understand what the u.s.' roll would be. in our history, push the cants to put ideas out there that would be good rather than take things off the table. i'm petrified we will look at ways not to have good government. >> it allows people. no one is committing to anything. they won't commit until they have a nominee and are put in the corner where they are

debating. >> they are committing. that's an interesting point about what they won't do. they are committed to repealing obama care. it's going to be hard to undo. we are going to talk about the pregame show for the sunday morning political talk shows right after this. with the capital one venture card we get double miles on every purchase. so we earned a holiday trip to the big apple twice as fast! dinner! [ garth ] we get double miles every time we use our card. and since double miles add up fast, we can bring the whole gang! it's hard to beat double miles! i want a mace, a sword, a... oww! [ male announcer ] get the venture card from capital one and earn double miles on every purchase, every day. go to capitalone.com. i wonder what it could be?! what's in your wallet? i wonder what it could be?! i've tried it. but nothing helped me beat my back pain. then i tried salonpas. it's powerful relief that works at the site of pain and lasts up to 12 hours.

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steven on twitter just tweeted that the manchester leader endorsed steve forbes in 2000. that is correct. it fills up our picture of the power in weight. all right. we have a list of the folks on the sunday talkers today. we asked you to, this is the point in the show where we play dress up. you get to ask a question. ezra, what would you ask of whom? >> senator pat toomey, i would like to know from a deficit reduction standpoint why raising

$300 billion in taxes only if we cut $3.8 trillion in taxes counts as a tax increase as opposed to a tax cut, which is a congressional office budget. >> how would you answer that if you were pat toomey? keep it going? >> the question is current policy versus current law baselines. already we are in the weeds. the tax cuts have been extended now by president obama as well. it's hard to argue they are all going to snap up to where they used to be. it might be a good thing to get the deficit done. it's unlikely to happen. it's how things look compared to the extension of tax cuts. what's going to replace them. i think there's a good tax reform out there. i, pat toomey, but i didn't put in enough revenues. we have to get to where the boehner-obama discussions were. >> i'd be surprised if he said

that. >> unconvincing. maya, what would you ask of whom? >> senator shumer. >> he's on "meet the press" today. >> yes. the question now is to leadership. the supercommittee was a product of leadership, it didn't work out. what are they going to do next? we can't sit back for a year and do nothing. we need to take action. proactive action. it needs to go to leadership, what are they going to put in place to make sure plans are considered and move forward. >> i'll play chuck schumer. that's what we come back to. >> he says we should only raise taxes on millionaires and above, not even $250. two parties agree on much more than they disagree. in terms of taxes. >> perfect.

>> that's the point. you just don't have that much leverage. what democrats have leverage on is we want to let the upper income tax cuts expire. they are $800 billion. that's the kind of number we should be talking about. it's a more rational starting point, i think. >> maria, what would you ask? >> i would like to have a sit-down with colin powell and give a brief of what is the state of the republican party and how are they going to mobilize the moderate republican who is want to sit this one out. >> colin powell is on this weekend. i forgot to mention, the guy who invented the bagless vacuum -- >> dyson? >> dyson. i blew by my script on that. >> i wonder if i could get -- >> i want to ask how mine works. i think we have one. we have two and one is bagless and one isn't. i can never figure out the

bagless one. i would ask him, how do i work my vacuum. >> the fans they have. it doesn't actually have a fan. >> i want to know why he's so awesome. >> michaela, what is your question? >> i would ask herman cain a question. like melissa harris perry, i want him to stay around as long as possible. we need it. all jokes aside, the comment he made about being a leader, not a reader in this time is so dangerous. not just that he quoted the simpsons, which he did on that one, but this antieducation stance that many of the -- some of the gop has is dangerous. does he think saying that at this time when we are in an education crisis, is that dangerous? it's almost antireading. when we are trying to get children to read. i feel so irresponsible and people let him get away with

that. >> more than becky, becky, becky stand. >> we played that clip. what's interesting about cain's performance and the way he is projecting himself is this ultimate rebuke to expertise, knowledge, prepping. >> facts, science. >> that's something that has a long -- it's something that has a very, sort of long vintage in conservative and republican politics and american politics on both sides of the ideological spectrum going back to the things said in populous movement and pamphlets. what's interesting to me about cain, we are seeing the air come out of that bubble is there is a lot of skepticism in this country of experts and expertise. >> this is just education. >> i guess that's more specific, yes. >> they started to bring this in about being antieducation.

it's so dangerous. >> i don't think it's a fair characterization for the tea party to say they are anti-education. >> there's a sentiment. not just experts or elites, but actually facts or that data is somehow relevant. i feel it's dangerous. >> the last people that did that was the last great empire of rome. they started moving away from the intelligence. we all know that story. >> i think this is going like a bit too far. i think when people with different ideas about education, i think tea party folks and law conservatives think education is ruined by teacher's unions. it's more complicated than that. it's a bipartisan thing. >> the comment, leader not a reader -- >> i don't like that comment. i don't think folks are anti-education.

anti-intellectual. >> maria brought up rome. my friend said the other day, talking about penn state and the rivalry coming up in college football. he said, you know, instead of figuring out where the next energy source is going to come from, we come up with bigger and bigger sports spectacles. it hits close to home. all right, what should you know for the news week ahead? coming up next. congratulations.

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new hampshire newspaper. could it be good news for president obama? black friday bonanza. the numbers are in. they are record setting. consumers came out in force to spend money the day after thanksgiving. will it last? we'll look at that and more. back to you. >> thank you, alex? what should we know for the weekend ahead? >> german bond yields are beginning to rise. it's spreading into the core. there is a solution to the crisis. the details are technical. the thrust is technical. they will be the lender of last resort and purchase the bonds under stress until panic subsides. it's actually that easy. by refusing to take the step, ecb is making disaster and misery not just for europe, the entire global economy. however obscure it seems, monetary is important.

you should know the new minister of infrastructure in greece is a man who, in his youth was involved in fascist youth groups and beat up leftist youths. you should know he was expelled from law school for beating leftist students but graduated into far right politics. he's now part of the greek government put in place to oversee a round of austerity. when it's a government run by tech any cats, it may not be the whole story. they are banned by international treaty after a back door effort to weaken the ban fell flat. the reason the weapon was banned in the first place is because they have a tendency to leave ordinance that look like little yellow drink containers and atact the attention of curious children. increasing health care costs and the affordable health care act

is the single biggest effort we have had in our lifetimes to deal with the problem. as a percentage of gdp, after tax profits for corporations are at the highest level wages and salaries for workers are the lowest level. the 1% is doing just fine in this recession, thank you very much, even if the 99% isn't. finally, the nba season is scheduled to start on christmas day. we will all have the distinct privilege of watching derrick roads play basketball and he's going to have a heck of a season. my guests are going to come back and tell what they think we should know right after this. sports photographer, things can get out of control pretty quickly. so i like control in the rest of my life... especially my finances. that's why i have slate, with blueprint. i can make a plan to pay off big stuff faster... or avoid interest on everyday things. that saves me money.

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♪ our guests are back to tell us what we should know as the news unfolds this week. ezra, what should people know? you have a lot of things you

think people should know. what's the top of your list. >> the republican party has two front-runners, romney and the last five years, both of them have supported healthcare plans with individual mandates and subsidies to obtain university at like the obama plan and cap and trade plan. to reduce carbon emissions in the atmosphere. they have migrated from being moderate republican positions to being democratic positions, not because of position changes but because the democrats tried to compromise and the republicans moved away from the compromise. this is one of the truly important facts of the policy discussions we have in this country and how fundamentally hollow and bankrupt they are. >> explain a little more on that. that pattern reinscribes itself in almost everything. what you see with the same thing with the deficit discussion is that when democrats move towards the center to try to sort of attract republican support, it produces the republicans want to maintain the same distance. they march in the opposite direction.

>> right. there's a great cartoon about negotiations between democrats and republicans. republicans would say we all need to move a little bit. three steps forward and republicans three steps backwards. they end in the same place. we let the two parties decide what left and right means in this country. republicans support something that's right. democrats support it, it's left. that lets them move the goalpost almost without us noticing. then they become liberal positions. it's hard for ordinary people who take cues from the way the debates from the parties deceive who is compromising and who is not. >> you just see there's no compromise so there must be -- >> barack obama is a moderate republican from the 1990s. it's true if you look at what they supported in the 1990s. >> maya macguineas, what should -- >> i want to touch on what ezra said. >> respond. >> i think that the extremes have moved. but also the world has moved.

i guess i have a little bit more understanding why what one was considered center isn't now. >> explain that. on something as specific as -- talk about cap and trade. to me, that's the most important issue and it's one in which we've seen what was a consensus. remember, newt gingrich is appearing in the@ads on the sofa. pat robertson. >> john mccain, the cap and trade plan -- >> i completely agree. that is one that i -- the casey would make is that the world on fiscal is very different because the problem is so much from the growth of government spending. driven by the aging population and healthcare costs. it's completely legitimate in my mind to say that's okay. it's going to grow or to say if people on the right are. we don't want government to be bigger. we want to do it on the spending side. i don't see both of them as completely extreme. i see them as edge it mat differences, points of view. we have to fix the problem

before markets force us to fix them. that's why it's not one side is working to solve the problem and -- it's a different world view. >> i didn't mention fiscal. i mentioned cap and trade. >> one party is will to dproms r compromise and the other isn't, that's a big discussion going on. i can see that. i can see on a fiscal front why people say this is a problem about spending that won't get fixed. >> i should point out that taxes as a percentage of gdp are thes he's since the early 1950s. >> if you extended all of the bush tax cuts, where things are headed, at the end of ten years, if you kept all the tax cuts in place, they would be above the historical average. automatically -- >> if we recover. >> yeah. that's why -- >> who knows if we are? if we're in zero growth, everybody is screwed. i'm serious. here's the biggest fear for me. aside from the fact that we're going to melt the planet. we're entering a period of -- you talked about this, you made a -- the shrinking pie.

the american social contract is deeply embedded in a conception that future will be better than the past and an expectation of rising affluence, that's what the sofa contract is. if we enter a period of prolonged anemic growth, wage stagnation like we've been having, american politics will go bonkers. the contract is sort of tightly wrapped up in an expectation, of increasing affluence across classes. >> there's a huge dilemma from the republican party, tax cuts around the board. as the austerity measures kick in, people feel more dependent on government. they'll feel less sympathetic to the -- because it's immediately touching their lives. >> you actually think -- that's an interesting theory. the theory being as economic as the recession pushes people into the safety net. they're then going to be less -- more hostile to the republican

message about tack cuts. >> it's going to affect them personally. >> there's also the opposite theory which is that stagnating wages, you notice the taxes coming out of your paycheck more and it produces moran tip think. >> maya, we didn't get your, you should know. i have two minutes left. >> everything we need to do has to focus on growth. that should be the overriding theme. that's jobs and debt rereduction. >> as you can see from today, fiscal policy, is sucking out of everything else. the big question is can we find a more productive way to move forward on putting a plan in place rather than letting it hang out over us. shouldn't get rid of the sequester. that's a quick trip to a downgrade. you'll see a lot of focus on what to do next. i hope it's moving forward to put a plan in place before the sequester hits. maria teresa kumar. >> we may not know who the winner is until tampa.

that's because of the -- >> that's a good point. >> the way the republican party works. you can't -- delegates -- states don't do delegates all. each delegate can vote individually. number one. number two, wrapping it up. basically, we may not know who the republican nominee is by the rules. the tea part will throw a monkey wrench. >> quickly. four days left in november. november is actually made of native american history month. succinct. i want to thank my guests. maya macguineas, ezra klein. maria teresa kumar, and righter michaela angela davis. thank you at home for joining us. we'll be back next saturday and sunday at 8:00. my guests will include the publisher of the nation magazine and jared bernstein former adviser to vice president biden.

in the meantime, you can find us on facebook at up with chris. up next is alex witt. we'll see you next week here on up. we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. for febreze fabric refresher. they agreed. [ experimenter 1 ] relax, take some nice deep breaths. [ experimenter 2 ] what do you smell? lilac. clean. there's something that's really fresh. a little bit beach-y. like children's blankets. smells like home.

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