cans. what else? >> this is a little out of our demo. lennon writing, he says "writinn revolution. >> that is a first. got a good tweet. i love this question because it is so random. can you dunk a basketball? the answer? i'm 36 years old. i can still dunk a basketball. it's not jordan, not sideways, not sky walking but i still place it over the rim neatly and grab the rim on the way down. still got it. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ go on take the money and run >> this weekend was a category 5 consumacane with americans spending over $52 million. nation, this orgy of christmas shopping proves america is back. we are once again -- yes!

[ cheering ] >> oh, yes. we are once again spending money we don't have on things we don't need to give to people we don't like. [ cheering ] >> yeah. usa! usa! usa! >> okay. good morning. usa, it's tuesday, november 29th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, national affairs editor for "new york" magazine and msnbc political analyst john heilman. also the president of the council on foreign relations is joining us. >> south carolina, this is exciting to me, john, newt is in south carolina and he is having a contest with mitt romney. >> yeah. >> nanny nanny poo-poo.

>> i'm more conservative. i mean, where do we begin? it is -- back in 1999 i think it was they had a front page article called the death of shame. i think that applies here. when you have newt gingrich arguing about ideological consistency, wow. pardon me? >> nothing. but, anyhow. >> willie, how you doing today? >> real well. >> why? >> why are you doing so well? >> you know what someone asked me yesterday? what's joe got against newt gingrich? what is the deal with joe and newt? >> i got nothing -- people think i got something against him. for instance if newt just stays in his lane and says things like you know what? i've been inconsistent through the years but this is where i am here. okay. that's fine. that's telling the truth. >> right.

>> but as judge judy says about my leg, seriously -- >> stop it. >> the guy talks about being a conservative. newt ran as a rockefeller republican in '74 and '76. he lost and ran in '78 as a conservative and won. right? he goes back and forth and bragged about being a rockefeller republican even after he was in congress. that's fine. embrace it. that is fine with me. but he won't do that. he claims i've been a conservative forever. in 1994. and this isn't personal. i think it's kind of funny. in 1994 he actually came into my race to endorse the moderate in my race and said i was, quote, too conservative to get elected. of course i got 62% of the vote but that's always newt. is it in fashion to be moderate this year or conservative this year? this year it's fashionable to be -- i got nothing personally against this guy.

i've got nothing personally against michele bachmann or herman cain. i got nothing personal against a lot of these people but a lot of them should not be running for president of the united states. >> you know what's true, also, the heavy lifting on the mitt as flip flopper has been done. the white house, whatever the dnc put out in the ad that narrative is out there. mitt versus mitt. he says one thing and then another thing a month later so mitt can ride that narrative and as he did yesterday in the radio interview, i know you're going to play some of this, mika, the dnc comes out that day and then he is helping push that along. >> john? >> the thing is the newt and all of the crazy, moderate to liberal statements he's made in the past and even calling paul ryan a radical a couple weeks ago. >> back in the first week of 1995 when you first came into congress the big headlines were around newt's idea that he was going to give tax credits so all poor children in america could have lap tops. that is an idea that appeals to

me but not to most conservatives. it's just that there is a long history. the thing he benefits from is the main guy who would be in a position to point out, besides joe scarborough, his inconsistencies, is mitt romney and mitt romney doesn't want to get in that argument with anyone because mitt romney has his problems. if there is a mutual destruction thing going on, it's holding romney back. >> how amazing, richard, then mika let's go to the news, but how amazing mitt romney has taken to calling the congressional budget office a socialist institution. when it was newt gingrich who in 2004, if you want to say anything that is socialistic it would be $7 trillion unfunded medicare benefit part d plan which will bankrupt this country along with medicare if we don't do something about it. newt wrote an op-ed saying every

conservative must support this bill if they're truly conservative. he supported the most socialistic scheme over the past 25 years and yet because he calls obama a socialist somehow the base is fine with that. >> it's hard to know where to begin on this. if one looks at the bush years there was obviously an explosion of domestic spending including the prescription drug benefit. it's one of the reasons you now have the xichl schism in the republican party. >> let's hear what he had to say. he seems to want to engage in this game which probably isn't good for him to be playing. speaking to a charleston radio station newt gingrich slammed mitt romney's record of changing positions while labeling himself the conservative alternative to the former massachusetts governor. >> define conservative. >> anybody who is honest about it knows that no person except christ has ever been perfect. so i don't claim to be the perfect candidate.

i just claim to be a lot more conservative than mitt romney. and a lot more electable than anybody else. i wouldn't lie to the american people. i wouldn't switch my positions for political reasons. it's perfectly reasonable to change your position if facts change. if you see new things you didn't see. everybody's done that. ronald reagan did it. it's wrong to go around and adopt radically different positions based on your need of any one election because then people have to ask themselves, what will you tell me next time? >> how does he say that? again, if newt had said, i've flip flopped just like mitt i'm good with that. we're all good with that because he is being intellectually honest. that is just intellectually dishonest. why don't we clarify this with a quiz? >> okay. this is your quiz from politico which i think really kind of narrows down the focus for people to help them understand. maybe they can take the quiz. >> right. >> and then, you know, look at the answer. >> is it hateful? is it personal? >> it's not hateful.

which is why i'm going to just read and disseminate information. you're good at being objective here. willie? >> here we go. >> can he be my life line? >> sure. so here are the questions. who said i will preserve and protect a woman's right to choose? i'm not going to change pro choice laws in any way. >> that's an easy one. >> who said that? >> a. mitt romney. you were correct. let's go to the next question. >> who bragged about being a moderate with this comment, there is a new synthesis evolving with the classic moderate wing of the party where as a former rockefeller state chairman i've spent most of my life? >> look at that. look what he is saying here. he's bragging while being in congress that he is -- has been in the moderate wing of the party most of his life and bragging about being a former rockefeller state chairman.

>> who did that? >> b bravo. >> okay. this is a good one. who starred in a 2007 global warming commercial with nancy pelosi that was sponsored by al gore's alliance for climate protection? who was it? >> saying the climate change was a big problem we had to fix at once. >> i cheated. we played this on "way too early" this morning. that's going to be b newt gingrich again. >> oh. >> willie geist 3 for 3 so far. >> here's the video. this is tougher. >> that's good. isn't that sweet? look at that. they look so comfortable. that's bipartisanship. >> that is. it's so nice. >> doing it for al gore, too, is the great thing. hey, al, this one's for you. why don't we play barry manilow "this one's for you" over that one. >> on a couch, a love seat. >> global warming is very important. and that's why they're together. >> right. what is the next question? >> all right. next question. this next one is a great one.

this next one is a great one. >> who once famously said, i don't line up with the nra? >> you know who that is? >> mitt right? >> why do you think? >> it's romney. yes it is. the next one, this is tough. >> going to help. >> this is a tough one. willie, this is great. okay. >> who said to a charleston radio station he is more conservative -- >> he doesn't change his position. this is really tough who was paid $312,000 by ethanol interests and then said ethanol is good for national security and for the economy? >> let's go to richard. ethanol is good for national security. >> sure. >> this foreign policy. who said this? >> can i hear my choices? >> three choices. >> we'll go with congressman gingrich. >> it was congressman gingrich who said that. >> wow. >> this table is like, you know -- >> wow. >> this will be the last one. >> okay. one more. which candidate bragged about

not being a republican during the reagan presidency and promised that if elected he would not return to reagan/bush policies? >> richard, you know that one? >> no. >> no. >> it's mitt romney who bragged about being a republican -- not being a republican. let's just keep going. why are we stopping? this is so great. >> too much fun. >> which candidate told planned parenthood he supported state funding of abortion? was it romney? richard, was it gingrich? was it huntsman? i defer. >> mitt romney. okay. this is the final question. this will be the final question because you know, i did that during '89. it was the summer of love. who remembers what happened during the summer of love? okay. this happened this summer. so if you were stumbling, you said this. then you were still in the summer. and that's not going to help you out. final question. double jeopardy question. which candidate went on nbc's "meet the press?"

he called paul ryan's medicare plan, quote, radical and right wing social engineering. i wanted richard to have one. who said that? >> that is newt gingrich. >> that is newt gingrich. now he's a conservative candidate. >> isn't the real conclusion from the quiz that there are socialist, moderate, left winger in the group is jon huntsman? because the answer was yes for him on nothing. >> actually wait. >> he was not the answer on any of those. i thought he was moderate -- the moderate right? >> he's the liberal. >> read my politico article. here's another one. you've led me into this. the american conservative wrote this about which gop candidate? for the past two decades a moderate republican who didn't side with his party on taxes, guns, and abortions, but this candidate's record on those issues isn't just to the right of moderates but to the right of most conservatives. who would that be? >> governor huntsman of utah. >> which candidate was praised for reforming health care with no employer mandate, no individual mandate, no provision

for subsidized care unlike obama care or romney care? >> rick santorum. no. wait. huntsman. >> final question. jon huntsman. i mean, john, which candidate was cited by pew center for running the best managed state, held by "forbes" magazine as being the most fiscally fit and for jobs creation. >> i think that might be jon huntsman. >> mika, the bigger point here is when it comes to throwing this rhino title around this year, there is very little to do with the right. it has everything to do with are you like newt gingrich, willing to call the secretary of hss joseph stalin? are you like glenn beck going to pump up your cred by calling the president of the united states a racist? are you like newt gingrich going to say that democrats are run by the -- what was it, the secular

socialist machine? newt gingrich said the democratic world view posed a greater risk to american democracy than nazism posed to the world. if you say that then you can support socialist positions because somehow your cred is okay. >> no. i think it's really -- >> facts be damned. it's twisted. >> it's self-destructive and why obama will win ultimately again if this continues and something doesn't happen. can i just speak for a moment about the least conservative candidate, the one who really has just no conservative credentials in this quiz? >> other than his conservative record. >> completely. jon huntsman unveiled his plan at a campaign stop in new hampshire, sharpening his tone against mitt romney and suggesting his opponent is in wall street's pocket. >> you should be wary of any candidate who carries all the endorsements of the members of congress because it means

they'll be a status quo president. anyone who is in the hip pocket of wall street because of all of the donations that they're picking up like mr. romney is these days, is not going to be a changed agent when it comes to fixing the too big to fail banking system. >> huntsman went on to unveil his plan to block future bailouts by capping their size and eliminating regulations. included in the plan, ending too big to fail. repealing the dodd/frank bill, and permanently shutting down fannie mae and freddie mac. huntsman also says he believes capitalism must have the chance of failing in order to work. >> it's understandable why people don't have trust when it comes to wall street. we have six banks that are too big to fail, so we can stand here and we can get tax policy right. we can get regulatory policy right. we can move toward energy independence. all things that i want to do. and i know we can get done. we can fire the engines of growth for this great country and we're still left with six

banks. if they falter, if they're on the brink of disaster, they'll get a bailout because if they go down, an institution that is $2 billion in size we all go south. i say at the end of the day we're setting ourselves up for disaster on wall street. capitalism without failure is capitalism and that is exactly what we have done. >> this is a significant moment in the presidential campaign. we're not just saying it because jon huntsman said it. this is the first candidate on the republican side to go after too big to fail. in fact, that's more aggressive than barack obama. he is saying he is going to break up the big banks. that's closer to -- he is saying that. >> look, it's not quite that but it's close. he has two things that are incredibly important. one is he's got this proposal to cap the size of the banks in maximum terms. doesn't necessarily mean break them up. to cap their size. the second and i think there is no question that if you went

around on wall street and asked people what the single most important reform would be to lessening the likelihood of a major systemic melt down again it is to have a cap on leverage. the amount of debt that banks have and he has a leverage cap. it is without question the most seminole reform you could offer and it's very hard -- a very hard limit in his proposal, very strong plan. >> one of the great mysteries of american politics for us around this table over the past three or four years, too big to fail has been allowed to get even bigger. barack obama is not moving on it. republicans are certainly blocking any efforts. you all have elizabeth warren and a few others talking about it. this is a pretty seminole moment in the campaign isn't it? >> it points out in a sense the unintended consequences of a lot of the reforms. we've made a bad situation worse. i think also what huntsman is saying is something else. he is saying the answer to a lot of what we're doing is not simply in government stimulus. it's in restructuring the economy, that you've got to create an environment where

companies or banks can fail. that's essential. it's integral to capitalism. the role of government is to essentially set the context. the role of government is to set the table for economic growth to happen, for companies to succeed, and for companies to fail. that's a big idea. because that is differentiating from the administration which is much more focused on what government can directly do. this if you will has a whole different concept of governing. the government's role is indirect. it's not to do stimulus. it's not to over regulate. it's not to under regulate. it is to create a context where the american economy can do what the american economy is meant to do which is grow but also have the risk of failure. a great idea. >> one of the great mysteries for us, we've been able to see in real time the collapse on september 15th, 2008 which people didn't see coming and then we've been able to watch people, politicians come on this show basically maintaining the status quo. allowing too big to fail to get even bigger. that's pretty, a dramatic change we just heard there.

>> i talked to the author of "too big to fail" and he said it's bigger than ever. if this happened again, another financial collapse would be worse than 2008. it would take down more of these banks. so it's very interesting to hear jon huntsman speak that way. it's very interesting to go back and look at just how conservative he really is. we had him on the show last week. you've got a sense of bewilderment from huntsman. what do i have to do to beat these guys? to get the message through that i am a conservative? >> frustrating. >> playing a silly game. one that has to be done. when the record is clear. quite frankly i think that gentleman is too smart. >> don't say that. >> i'm sorry. >> the american people are smarter than -- >> are they, joe? >> can i finish? >> yes. >> the american people are always talked down to by elites in washington and new york and then they usually make the right choice in the end. what did i say? three or four months ago, that clowns don't win this thing. the process takes care of

itself. that's why i say at the end of the day, you watch. the cream will rise to the top. >> let me rephrase it for one second. is the base not self-destructive? >> no, they're not. >> are you sure? >> no more than the democratic base is self-destructive in choosing barack obama over hillary clinton. >> okay. >> the one thing about jon huntsman, if this ends and he doesn't get the republican nomination which is still pretty unlikely he will look back on his announcement tour when he went around and did not identify himself as a conservative. when you come back to national politics you get one moment to introduce yourself. he spent a week and refused to call himself a conservative. and that has stuck with him for months since then. >> whose fault was that? >> i think ultimately in the end it's the candidate's fault. he has to take responsibility for what comes out of his mouth. he kept answering and saying i'm a pragmatic, problem solver. he wouldn't say i'm a conservative. >> you're not going to say john weaver? >> i think he got bad advice but

it is the candidate ultimately. going into any campaign you know that it's true. >> i agree. >> he should have said i'm a proud conservative and i'm going to insist on this. speechwriter weaver you're wrong. >> that's just silly. if you're running as a republican it is quite clear that should be a given. >> no, no. i agree he should have branded himself earlier. there is no doubt about it. he should have said i'm the former governor of utah. "forbes" has said i'm the most fiscally conservative guy in america. i am number one in job creation. the nra says i'm their best friend. right to life says i'm their best friend. i am the only conservative guy in this race. if you're comparing me to newt and romney. if he had said that from the beginning -- >> i agree. >> i think you are exactly right. richard, what do you think? >> it's why people win this the first time out. you get better as a candidate. >> exactly. >> willie was just telling me that before. >> yep. >> let's see what we do at the holiday inn. we have a lot going on. >> you guys were busy. >> yeah.

>> up next the political playbook. later, ann coulter will be here. delaware governor jack markell, buddy roemer, and russell stimons. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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28 past the hour. time now to take a look at this morning's papers. we'll start with the parade of papers. "the boston globe" says congressman barney frank, a stalwart of massachusetts politics for more than 30 years and one of the nation's leading liberal voices, announced yesterday he will leave congress when his term expires. during the announcement frank couldn't resist taking a jab at newt gingrich. >> i did not think i had lived a good enough life to be rewarded by newt gingrich being the republican nominee. it still is unlikely but i have

hopes. given the nature of the republican primary electorate which is very conservative i think it is possible that -- as a matter of fact he obviously thinks so, too, because his comment about immigration is going to be looking to the final election. so -- but i have to say this. he would be the best thing that happened to the democratic party since barry goldwater. >> you know, other stalwarts are dropping out, don is leaving, democrats are saying it's going to be a rough run getting the house back in 2012. fascinating. and barney, i guess they redistricted his area. >> right. >> he said it would be a tough one. it was tough in 2010. which is really surprising. for the first time up there. "the augusta chronicle" says newt gingrich has taken a commanding lead in south carolina with more than twice the support of mitt romney or herman cain. this according to a new poll

conducted for the newspaper that surveyed the likely republican voters. that really is -- i mean, gingrich has a great chance, john, of becoming the southern candidate now. you've got iowa and who wins that. i still think michele bachmann may have another run at it in iowa. i think we could end up with bachmann ending in iowa, huntsman and romney fighting it out. i do think i -- really you think huntsman is going to have a push there. you could have those guys fighting up there but you go south, south carolina, if newt doesn't blow himself up he's going to be strong there and in florida and in georgia, alabama, mississippi, louisiana. >> well, look. there is a big opening for a regional candidate. it is why we thought for a while rick perry could be a solid candidate if he raised a lot of money and consolidated the south. there are a lot of problems mitt romney has in those precincts so

if newt could step in and make that play there is no reason he can't occupy that void if perry continues to flounder as he has for weeks. >> willie, do you think perry has a second act? >> no. i think it's over. i think he flamd out quickly. >> you think bachmann though may have a second act in iowa? >> because of iowa, yeah. i don't know that she wins iowa but i think she is competitive there. >> she actually last week though turned in two of her strongest performances on the fallon show. at the debate she was on fire. >> she was strong. she looked like somebody who was the grownup in the room. we've said that many times. who is the grownup in the room, in that particular debate anyway she was lecturing some of the other candidates about foreign policy. >> if you think about how unsettled iowa is right now it's radical. 36 days from voting it's like no one has any idea. there is no gathering around a conservative. herman cain and gingrich both because of their personal lives will have a hard time becoming the consensus candidate in a very religious, conservative state like iowa.

people like bachmann, santorum, even perry conceivably anything could happen over the course of the next 30 days in iowa. >> all right. let's get to politico. >> the executive editor is mr. jim vandehy. good morning, jim. >> how are you? >> you're reporting democrats' hopes for retaking the house in 2012 diminishing as more congressmen like barney frank choose not to seek re-election. what's going on here? >> well, remember, democrats need about 25 seats to win back the majority which is a big task to begin with. but democrats have increasingly felt like this environment even if it's bad for incumbents is not hospitable to them taking back the majority. a good barometer of this and has been over the last 20 years is what happens with the senior members who are in a position to become chairmen, either for the first time or, again, if they win back the majority? when you have people like barney frank making that calculation that you know what? it's not worth it. it's not worth the grind of trying to win re-election

knowing there is such a small chance of getting that chairmanship back. and we saw this with republicans before. we saw it with democrats after they lost the majority in '94. it's a great barometer to tell you what the mood is inside the party. and by that barometer, democrats are more pessimistic today than they were a year ago. >> you know, some people looked at barney frank's announcement yesterday. it didn't seem right. a guy like him, a leader in congress, a fighter his whole career looked at his election and said i can't win. i'm going to get out. is there any chance there is more to this story about barney frank? >> definitely. we're hearing as many as another half dozen folks might get out. not that there is something more to why frank got out other than the tough political calculation but it speaks to this environment. we are hearing another half dozen senior democrats might get out because the environment is so inhospitable to democrats. >> we'll talk to barney frank live on monday. thank you so much. coming up they are perhaps the very last people on the face of the earth. you want to see when the biggest

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a live shot of capitol hill at 38 past the hour. polling is open for the second straight day in nine of egypt's 27 provinces as millions of egyptians cast their ballots in the country's first democratic elections since the removal of president hosni mubarak. voting is being held in multiple stages as additional provinces will begin to vote in coming weeks. voting for both the upper and lower houses of egypt's new parliament are expected to be finalized by march of 2012. richard, let's first start here. how is this going especially given the latest unrest and unease about the future there? >> i thought there were two big winners yesterday. one was the military and the other was the muslim brotherhood. clearly the muslim brotherhood will get a pluralitiy of the

vote. >> show us what is at stake for the united states. >> stakes are enormous. egypt is about one-third of the arab world. what happens there is a model, a pivot for the entire arab world. it will have repercussions throughout the region. also you have the question of the israeli/egyptian peace treaty. egypt has a lot of influence over the palestinians. what happens in egypt really matters to what has been the most troubled part of the world. >> what's our aid situation in egypt at this point? >> the united states gives about $1.5 billion a year. most of it's military. a much smaller percentage of that is economic. a tiny percentage of that is pro democracy aid. >> as we watch this story unfold, watch the elections closely, what are some key dates to watch for coming up? >> as you mentioned, the next couple months these elections for the lower house, then after that the elections for the upper house. then after that yet again the elections for the president. what we don't know though in all of this is what is going to be the substance of the constitution? exactly when it's going to

emerge. what are these elections really for? what is going to be the balance of power within the government and between the government and the society? that's a big question. again, as i said, the muslim brothers are going to do very well. what will that mean for egyptian politics? >> richard, you have the front page of the "new york times" and a big turnout. does this empower the military to crack down the next time you have social unrest, to basically -- now they're moving toward a functioning society. yes, democracy may work in egypt. the muslim brotherhood is doing well in egypt. and the military now may fill empowered to step in and stop the anarchy, stop the chaos. >> absolutely. and also the military will feel more confident about skewing the writing of the constitution to make sure they have a central role in egypt's future. again, the military is one of the two big winners yesterday. >> can i ask you quickly about pakistan changing gears quickly? >> absolutely. >> what do we know today that we didn't know yesterday? obviously this is getting more tense by the day and the pakistani prime minister saying the relationship with the u.s.

is not going to be the way it was because of this incident. we heard the same thing in may after the bin laden raid. >> we don't know anything new. what we have is simply more evidence this is a deeply flawed relationship. we are not partners. we are not allies. we are not friends. every now and then the united states and pakistan have some overlapping interests but increasingly we diverge. we diverge on terrorism. we diverge on afghanistan. we shouldn't kid ourselves. despite the tens and tens of billions of dollars that are flowing from the united states to pakistan, essentially we have very different agendas. this is a deeply flawed relationship with a country that supports terrorism, that often works against us in afghanistan and has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world. >> richard, can you step back and just a broader picture, when you think about george herbert walker bush one of his great accomplishments was managing the transition out of the eastern bloc. is obama doing anything like as well in terms of his management of the whole change happening throughout this region? >> the short answer is no. in part because we have so

little influence we shouldn't kid ourselves despite the aid and all that. we are really not driving history in this part of the world. i think you've got to say that. >> all right. up next the must read opinion pages. ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." oh, look. >> look who's here. mike. >> we stopped on the way to work. >> what do you mean you got stopped? >> i got pulled over on lexington avenue. i hit someone in the scooter. >> in your scooter? >> yeah. >> the truth is the alarm didn't go off on the park bench. >> by the way, barnicle mobile is a trending topic.

is it a rascal? >> the highlight of my life. >> the geriatric scooter. >> your greatest performance. >> that's true, joe. >> not good at all. >> all right. we're trying to get to the must read opinion pages. >> let's do it. >> john, you have one. >> yes. >> in "new york" magazine which i'm going to read. what occupy protesters believe is that after a brief period of retrenchment, the protests will be back even bigger and with a vengeance in the spring when, with the unfurling of the presidential election, the whole world will be watching. among occupy's organizers, there is fervid talk about occupying both the democratic and republican conventions. interesting. about occupying the national mall in washington, d.c. about in effect transforming 2012 into 1968 redux. >> there is a big difference. i was thinking while reading your article yeah it could be like '68 because you have a

captive audience then i remembered what the police started doing at the conventions starting in 2000. they have little cages and yeah you can protest but you either protest in these little cages or we throw you in jail. >> yeah. >> they're going to face some obstacles. you think -- do they want it to be like chicago in '68, mass chaos in the streets? >> no. i think what they think is that they are very -- this is not a movement that thinks that being kicked out of a couple parks is bringing things to an end and they're planning to be a big force in 2012. they recognize -- in this case, there is a series, although the movement, the occupy wall street people claim over and over again that they are a leaderless movement. they are not in fact a leaderless movement. there is a group of a couple dozen people who are the ones to sort of get things done. actually this piece which is a reported piece i try to introduce you to some of the people who are the strategists and tacticia in. s and message guys really actually getting things done

down there. they are -- the most interesting thing to me about them is how firmly they reject any notion that the white house and barack obama can channel that energy. their view of barack obama is that he is to them as hubert humphrey was to the new left in 1968. their attitude is, we were inspired by him in 2008. he inspired us with his talk of transformational change in 2008 and he turned out to be exactly as the same as the old boss ever was. and they are actually more -- in some ways embittered by obama than they are in some ways by the republican party. because he let them down. >> it's interesting, mika, if you read certain writings about hubert humphrey in 1968, 1972, there's actually a -- an unrivalled venom from the new left. they hated humphrey more than they hated nixon. they hated nixon a lot.

fear and loathing on the campaign trail in 1972. it is hubert humphrey that is almost this deformed caricature in thomson's mind. >> it is an interesting piece. in "the washington post" our friend mark thiesen in some ways in a back-hand way legitimizes occupy wall street. listen to what he says. democrats seem to believe the tea party movement with its calls for limited government and spending restraint is waning. they believe it's bei ining repd by a new grass roots movement. they are increasingly convinced fiscal restraint is yesterday's news and that class warfare is their ticket to re-election in 2012. the notion will be put to test in 12 months' time but for now let's not pretend that gop intransigence on taxes and a lone conservative activist were responsible for the failure of the super committee. if you want to find the shadowy force that exerted power over half of the members of the super committee dooming it to gridlock

and failure look no further than the encampments of zuccotti park. >> occupy on one side and the tea party on the other makes it hard to sfind the middle in washington. >> it is one reason the campaign is unfolding the way it is, that governing is so tough. the difference is the tea party is still operating largely within the political process and occupy wall street and the rest is operating outside the political process. i think there is still a big difference there. >> mike, do you think that we're going to see a redo of chicago '68? >> i think charlotte has that potential. it is a huge banking center. it is obvious that -- >> my god. i didn't even think about that. >> big focal point for occupy wall street and occupy wall street is on the verge of connecting an issue that would connect fully three-quarters of the people in this country i believe and it's the fear in this issue. what's going on, what's been going on for ten or 12 years just hasn't been fair. >> we'll be right back with

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there was a football game last night. >> oh, that's good. >> the new york football giants. >> 18-0? big game last night. the good news if you're a giants fan you got to go to bed at halftime. >> what is happening with the giants? >> no defense as i'm about to show you. the saints are undefeated at home this season. unstoppable last night on offense. second quarter first points of the game drew brees, lance moore stretches it out. from four yards out. nice extension there. the saints only getting started. just over two minutes left in the second quarter. new orleans with an 80 yard drive, easy to graham for the touchdown. saints up, 14-3. tacked another one on to make it 21-3 at the half. giants try to come back in the third. brandon jacobs, 265 pounds of him running over people to get into the end zone. but they just couldn't stop drew brees. look at this play. slips one sack. a little pump fake. look at him. the mobility from drew brees. wow. don't see that every day.

hits pierre thomas for a first down and it sets up the next scoring drive. brees taking it himself. >> look at this guy. he's on fire. he's been inspired by tim tebow. no doubt about it. >> haven't we all. >> spend five minutes with that kid. >> brees tried to dunk it apparently over the goal post. had to settle for the finger roll. he went for 363, four touchdowns. saints win, 49-24. eli manning threw for 406 and a couple touchdowns in the loss. new orleans on top of the nfc south. they've won three in a row. they get the lions on sunday. the loss drops the giants out of 6-5. game behind dallas but it gets tougher from here. they've lost three in a row. look at the schedule ahead on sunday. in the 4:00 game they get the packers. then it's the dallas cowboys after that. then maybe a win there. home against washington. jets and then another game against dallas. the road is rough and they got a big cluster for the wild card. you got the lions, the falcons, a tough road. >> look forward to that christmas eve game with the jets.

>> yeah. >> that may determine whether the giants go to the playoffs or not. >> yeah. would be big for the jets as well. >> yeah. coming up next ann coulter going to join the conversation. why she says mitt romney is the man to take on obama. >> and buddy roemer. obviously she thinks that, too. hey, buddy. the employee of the month is...

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anybody who is honest about it knows that no person except christ has ever been perfect. so i don't claim to be the perfect candidate. i just claim to be a lot more conservative than mitt romney and a lot more electable than anybody else. i wouldn't lie to the american people. i wouldn't switch my position for political reasons. it's perfectly reasonable to change your position if facts change, if you see new things you didn't see. everybody does that. ronald reagan did it. it's wrong to go around and adopt radically different positions based on your need of any one election. because then people have to ask themselves what will you tell me next time? >> what will you tell me next time? >> it really depends which way the winds blow. >> okay. let's check. north, south, east, west. hum. welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle is still with us and joining the table conservative commentator, syndicated columnist and author ann coulter.

welcome to the show. >> thank you. great to be here. >> we're talking about newt gingrich, one of your favorite topics. he claims to be more conservative than mitt romney but he is not perfect. only christ is perfect. >> he says that. >> that's true. >> we're getting checkmarked for that. willie, we were going through this before and i missed a couple things. he said he doesn't switch positions. nothing radically different. this is a man who bragged about being a rockefeller republican and he said he is, quote, most electable. now i haven't seen that poll. but i think he is one of the least electable out there. >> herman cain is right there with him. i think miss coulter wrote a column a couple weeks ago basically saying let's cut the bs. mitt romney is the guy. let's stop pretending it's newt gingrich. let's stop pretending it's rick perry or herman cain or whoever the flavor of the month is. you believe it's mitt romney and it's time for the republican party to come to grips with that. >> yes. i just mostly want my prediction to be true. because i've been saying that since obama was elected and somewhat famously at this year's

c pac back in february when i made part of a prediction that i have since retracted that if christie didn't run it would be romney and romney would lose. actually by this summer time i had retracted that because i think obama really has a glass jaw. we weren't expecting to see it. >> right. >> frankly, i think every one of these republican candidates on the stage, i keep being reminded of this, it's a million times better than john mccain and a billion times better than obama. but i do think it is going to be romney. >> one of the things we've talked about around the table over the past couple of months is despite my qualms with mitt romney moving around the positions, is how much better he is in 2012 than he was in '08 as a debater. you said it a couple of times. he just out classed everybody on the stage. >> not only that. but it gets to the question that we've asked here for the past -- what don't the republicans understand about the word w-i-n win? isn't romney giving them the

best shot at winning? don't they want to do that? >> yeah, yeah. well, i think so. part of what i think -- well two things are affecting a lot of these primary voters. i think in the end they'll vote for romney so they do want to win. one is it feels like 1980. like i say, obama just seems like a big fat target and so they really want to find their ronald reagan. unfortunately ronald reagan isn't running this year so they have to come to terms with that. the other thing is many, including myself, believe that conservativism is popular. ronald reagan was very popular. you ask people issue by issue. we get people who vote for republicans who think they're democrats but they don't like amnesty for illegals. they call themselves democrats. they vote for republicans because they're pro life. so we think conservativism is a winning philosophy and so to the extent republicans think that romney is being pushed as a moderate, well that doesn't make him electable. i don't think he is a moderate. he's not --

>> do republicans go outdoors? do they go grocery shopping? do they put gas in their cars? you don't hear anything from people about abortion, immigration. >> oh, no. it's the economy right now. i'm making the larger point of believing that conservativism is very popular. more popular than republicanism is. that's the concern with romney. i think romney is conservative now. i think what i don't understand some not understanding though in the end as i say i think they will understand and think it's going to be romney. what don't they understand about massachusetts, most liberal state in the union, he ran against ted kennedy? i mean, you're flipping from positions you held when you came within five points of taking it out. give the guy a break. >> i don't know that i'll do that with ted kennedy. we miss him in massachusetts and i think the country and especially in the senate and i think barack obama more than anybody because if ted kennedy had been alive, that health care debate would have lasted about five months. >> as a columnist i miss him desperately.

>> all right. let's go to newt. >> fresh off his endorsement from the new hampshire union leader newspaper newt gingrich is in south carolina today for a three-day campaign push and gingrich continues to face criticism from members of his own party over a 2008 global warming ad that he did with then house speaker nancy pelosi. there it is. he defended himself last night on fox news. >> do you believe in man made global warming that because the planet is polluted and we spew a lot of stuff into the air that has influenced the way climate comes about? do you believe that? >> i don't think we know. i think that the evidence is not complete. >> so you're an agnostic on the subject. would that be accurate? >> i think it would be fair to say that i'm open minded and certainly not prepared to spend trillions of dollars on a theory. >> now, nancy pelosi is obviously the poster woman for the far left. did you think that being associated with her in any forum would be damaging to you?

>> no. i thought at the time, look, i was a private citizen. i wasn't contemplating public life. >> see? i never understand that with people who say, well, i wasn't contemplating -- because i hear that all the time. as a private citizen, i said something i actually believed. i've never understood this about politicians. you can go back to where i was in 1992 when i was a democrat and i was saying the same thing in '92 as i was saying in '94 as i was saying as a lawyer in 2002 as i was saying as a guy on the night time show. ann, you look back at what gingrich has said. time and time again, 1989 bragging he's a rockefeller republican. in -- actually in 1998 the last speech he gave on the house floor when he attacked people like me, and tom coburn calling us jihadists. on the couch with nancy pelosi. the flip-flops are mind

boggling. then he goes on the radio show yesterday and says, well i've been consistent. i've been a conservative. >> well, i think that is not going to help him in the primary, that ad with nancy pelosi. and i, too, think you could go back to what i was saying in kindergarten and it would be quite consistent with what i'm saying now. yet, and still, i don't think consistency is such a great value. i mean, i'd rather have people -- cain was consistent. i'd rather have people -- we have romney and gingrich. >> just blurred all out. >> they got the general drift. consistency is not a great thing and especially someone like john mccain who consistently annoyed conservatives, would claim he was courageous by attacking conservatives and getting good press in the "new york times." i much prefer -- there is no rockefeller wing of the republican party anymore.

if you're running for president you are appealing to conservatives and i'm all for that. >> so the question is, willie, when you're a republican, say a conservative, and you have the choice between mitt romney, you have a choice between newt gingrich, and then you've got a choice between people that are branded conservative, but are simply unelectable. >> you can make a point and vote for newt gingrich, herman cain, michele bachmann about standing up for conservative values and i respect that. but you're going to lose. if you want to make the larger point that barack obama should not be president of the united states over the next four to five years, you want to vote for mitt romney. you want to vote for perhaps jon huntsman, somebody who has a chance at beating in the middle and getting those moderate, independent voters, winning a general election. i guess it's a case of you make your point and you lose or you suck it up a little bit and vote for mitt romney. >> although it is kind of a weird point you're making if you're voting for cain or bachmann because on account of

mitt romney's flip-flops, he is a conservative. he's as conservative as we want now. you're making a point for consistency and you're making a point for consistency again against someone who ran in massachusetts, one of the most liberal states of the union. would michele bachmann, herman cain, newt gingrich, john mccain from arizona, would they have been so conservative if they were running against ted kennedy in massachusetts? >> what is the litmus test? what is this? it seems like it's getting in the way of what's good for the country and who might be the best candidate. i mean, it seems to me -- >> and the one who can win. >> right. the most conservative candidate if you do a little list or do a quiz like he did in his politico piece, you might find that it's not either of the two you're talking about. nobody is even looking. >> it's not just a litmus test. it is positions and ideology. that's what the two political parties are. >> talking five minutes about the definition of conservativism and true conservativism versus semiconservativism versus mitt versus newt and both of them

really not being consistent on either. who cares? who is the best candidate? >> i think we're not talking about that. we're talking about whether consistency is more important than someone's position. and i say the positions are more important than consistency. >> you say where they are right now. >> yeah. that's what we're voting on. i mean, what the positions are on things. that is a difference between the two parties. it is not who can speak the best or who has the best suit. >> but the two candidates we're talking about where it's just their present position. >> yeah. >> really that kind of underlying -- >> i think that's more important. >> so here's the question then. this is what i had been confused about thus far in the primary process. you've been talking about romney, romney. >> not so much. recently though. >> lately though about winning. >> i was waiting to see if chris christie would jump in. it used to be christie, christie, christie. >> same here. but the thing is, what you usually find with political parties out in the wilderness for eight years is they get more pragmatic. and they're like okay. we got to win. we're going to do what it takes

to win. and yet this year, we've had sarah palin, donald trump, michele bachmann, then herman cain and rick perry. you've had all of these people who just aren't going to win at general elections. do you think conservatives eventually will say, we're going to get pragmatic. we want to beat this guy? >> i think there is a big difference between the republican and democratic parties. when the democratic party wants to win they have to hide their left wing. when the republican party wants to win, they have to produce and brag about their right wing. that's my point in mentioning specific issues. a lot of people -- conservativism is way more popular than republicanism and more than twice as popular as liberalism. so when you say pragmatic, you seem to be implying they should hide their conservativism. they are being pragmatic by wanting to run the most conservative candidate. but it has to be the most conservative candidate who can

win. >> right. the bill buckley test. >> yeah. >> who is the most conservative candidate that is electable? >> exactly. and perry, i mean, i like him. he is a great governor but he has not been good in the debates, republican primary voters have seen that, and he has dropped in the polls. newt gingrich has some personal problems. i don't think consistency is really one of them. i think taking million dollars from freddie mac is not going to make him a huge hit with the tea party. >> right. and ethanol. >> but working with pelosi, that isn't a big hit with me but it is going to be hard to attack newt gingrich. i have to say in his defense on this point. he is -- you can't call him a republican obstructionist who is denouncing republicans and refuses to work with republicans. he is doing this education thing with al sharpton. >> right. >> he is doing global warming commercial with pelosi. he loves working with democrats. >> okay. so you look at these candidates for a living and you talk about -- and analyze their conservative credentials. who is the most conservative candidate on the republican

platform? >> they're all pretty conservative. i love this year's -- >> who is the most? who has the most conservative record? >> well, i'd say romney, cain, bachmann, i'm not sure they are the most conservative -- the most kind of conservative i like. i mean, i think both santorum and perry and gingrich have problems with amnesty and that is a big issue with the republican party. doesn't matter what everyone says. at "the wall street journal", on fox news, george bush tried to put amnesty -- push amnesty with both -- both candidates for president mccain and obama supported amnesty and the american people erupted in rage. that is not a popular position. >> would it happen with gingrich as well do you think? >> yes though i think as gingrich as flavor of the month is going to last longer than the others only because he happened to hit at holiday season stow will look like my prediction was wrong through christmas and then my prediction will come roaring back. >> all right. ann coulter thank you for being

with us. >> thank you very much. we'll talk to delaware's governor jack markell about his recent trip to afghanistan. how are the troops responding to the president's strategy? just ahead republican presidential candidate buddy roemer joins us onset. [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest.

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washington is owned by the special interests and the big corporations. somebody ought to call them on it. and these people have called them on it. enough already. >> listen to occupy wall street. you know what they're saying? no one went to jail after

trillions were take ferren the taxpayers. >> their campaign -- my campaign i don't take big checks. you're everything. >> with us now former republican governor from louisiana and presidential candidate buddy roemer. buddy, you're shaking things up with that commercial. are you embracing occupy wall street? >> i do. i embrace its spirit and its smell. >> its smell. what does occupy wall street smell like? >> it smells like a rough crowd. lots of young people. i was there once myself. i'm 68. have i faint memories. >> yeah. >> i remember the civil rights marches that i was in in the deep south. i remember the antivietnam war stuff that i participated in as a college student. i have memories. what occupy wall street says to me is they get it. they get that somewhere between

wall street and k street the system is corrupt. here's why. a big check gets first in line. everybody else is out of sight. this country is not fair at the top. >> that's the bottom line. i couldn't agree with you more. what is the response -- you were down there a few times? >> i have. i was the first guy to go down there. >> first guy to go down there. >> yeah. >> what was the response and what did you find? >> oh, they beat me up badly. i'm a republican and a conservative by nature. but we had a good day. i listened. i didn't give a great speech. i didn't come to talk. i came to listen. and i liked what i heard. their solutions are different than mine. >> sure. >> they think we need more government. i think we need better government. big difference. >> and you're walking the walk on your message about getting big monday@of politics. you won't take a donation to your campaign above a hundred dollars. we know what that's done to a campaign. you just can't survive that way. >> tough.

>> what would you like to see done about campaign finance reform specifically in this country? >> well, it must be constitutional. and the battle is 50 years old. between liberals who want limits and conservatives like me who want full disclosure. right now we have neither. i would do the following three or four things. number one, i would have a 48-hour reporting period. we live in an electronic world. number two, i would have full disclosure. no exceptions. number three, i would make pacs equal to individuals. whatever that limit is. a thousand dollars, 2500. not twice as much as it is now. number four i think super pacs are illegal. number five, i would separate lobbyists from check giving. you can do one or the other if you're a registered lobbyist you can bring an idea or you can bring a check. you can't do both. finally, i would have criminal penalties in the law. i would make campaign reform the first issue in america. our country is headed in the wrong direction. and it's done so deliberately by

the biggest and the brightest because they have the power and control. somebody once said, i think it was a brit, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. washington, d.c. is corrupt. you know, i'm the only guy running for president who's ban congressman and a governor. i'm the only guy running for president who's built a billion dollar bank with no bailouts and no help from this lousy, corrupt government. i saw bank reform last year and i said, buddy, you owe it to your family and your future to stand up and say something. bank reform. too big to fail is still the law. glass/steagall is still defeated. no increase in capital ratios and fannie mae and freddie mac still exist. it's a disgrace. >> we were talking about this earlier this morning. why does too big to fail still exist? what's the reason? we had this crisis that shook us to our core and yet it's still in place and bigger than it was. >> let me give you a word.

money. cash. you know who the biggest corporate giver from the financial world was four years ago? a little firm called goldman sachs. you know who the largest corporate giver in america is to politicians in washington? general electric. have you seen their record? no one went to jail. ge made 5.4 billion last year and didn't pay one damn penny in federal income tax. you know why occupy wall street is there? they can read and they can smell. something stinks. >> and it's usually john who is reporting on the question. >> don't take that -- >> fair point. governor, i want to ask you a political question. >> okay. >> as you pointed out you are the only republican candidate who has been both a governor and member of the house of representatives. >> right. >> gary johnson former governor of new mexico. >> right. good man. >> very successful governor,

real conservative. >> yes. >> the two of you have been nonentities in this race. >> yes. >> largely gary johnson was allowed in one debate. >> two. >> i keep score. >> you guys have not been allowed on the stage. >> no. >> you've been blocked out from media coverage. >> yes. >> you've been effectively silenced by the process. >> the process. >> now you are inside it. tell us, how can it be that a former governor of new mexico, former governor and congressman from louisiana cannot get on a stage with some of these other figures who are in many ways i think, you know, many people regard them as laughable some of the other figures. they are certainly have no more credibility than you guys do. why is that? what have you learned about the impediments that have kept you out of the stage and how do we stop that from happening again in the future? >> i've decided it's part of the system. it's part of money first, entertainment, it's part of power grab. i mean, someone makes the rules. here's what's happened to me. there have been ten national debates. i've been on zero.

gary's been on two. i'm 0 for 10. the rules keep changing. i started off. you had to be an official candidate. i became an official candidate. they said you had to have 1%. i didn't. then i got 1%. they said you have 2%. i didn't. then i got 2% and here's what they said the last two debates. you had to raise $500,000 in the last 90 days. now why is that a rule? i have raised $256,000. no pacs. no super pacs. average gift $40.55. free to lead. and i can't get on a debate? something is wrong in denmark. >> so is mitt romney the leader, you're saying that washington is bought and paid for. is mitt romney bought and paid for? >> absolutely. he's got three super pacs. they are supposed to be independent -- no coordination. his super pacs are run by a former campaign manager, former business partner, and a former chief of staff.

is that separate and independent? he actually spoke at the fundraiser for his super pac. that's no coordination? rick perry has seven. every other republican candidate including gary johnson by the way, when he made his first debate, he formed a super pac the next day. it's a joke. you know who owns america? you don't. your vote is unimportant, joe. you don't even count. you know who owns america? a few at the top and they got one thing in mind -- no change. look at obama. all that hope and promise? no changes. he's running for re-election, barely halfway through his term a year ago, and what did he say? i'm going to raise a billion dollars. well guess who the president is raising from? the very banks he's supposed to regulate. he went to wall street, had a fundraiser, $35,800 a ticket. you know who the host was?

goldman frigging sachs. >> you know what? you remember last primary process? >> yes. >> we made mike huckabee an honorary member of the round table? >> i think we found our man. >> i think we found our guy. >> yes. >> how often do you get up to new york? >> seldom as possible. >> all right. >> i'm in new hampshire, man. i'm in new hampshire. and i'm looking at americans elect. they've shut me out of this debate. i'm a proud republican but i'm a prouder american and i'm taking a serious look at american elect. 50 states they're going to be on the ballot. i want on the national stage and i'm going to ask mr. obama and mr. romney where did you get your money? who do you work for? >> i think his voice needs to be heard. >> i agree. >> this is an unbelievably important message to get out to americans. >> i think for once i completely agree. >> they are both totally credible public servants. >> you are just saying that about barry johnson because you want -- >> that is partly true but

nonetheless a very successful governor of new mexico. >> he was successful. >> these are serious politicians who have serious records of public service and can't get on the stage? >> seriously. >> ridiculous. >> that is a message 80% of america wants to hear right there. >> they're going to get to hear it, joe. >> governor buddy roemer, thank you. >> can i ask him a question? >> you may. >> what are you going to do when january 10, after alabama plays lsu? >> celebrate, man. celebrate! tigers. i'm hurting myself in 49 states. i know it. i didn't go to lsu but i believe purple and gold. >> they're a great team aren't they? they and alabama. that's going to be a rematch. >> something i never said in louisiana. i went to harvard undergraduate economics and harvard business school of banking. i never mention that in louisiana. >> you don't. >> you're a smart man. >> thank you very much. russell simmons joins the conversation and will walk us through his new guide to "having it all." keep it right here on "morning joe." progresso. it fits!

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the nation's capital.

mike, you said something earlier about ted kennedy that his passing, of course, a great something we all miss him, he was a very close friend of yours. he was a wonderful man to me. in difficult times when other people weren't. >> i love this story. >> i got a story, kennedy was a guy that reached out. you remember? >> yeah. >> he is the guy who would stop if he saw somebody on the side of the road. great man. but you talked about politically how his passing also while a great loss to his family and friends and people who loved him like we did around the table, you stayed also hurt barack obama politically. explain. >> well, i think so. i think a lot of people think so actually. i just picked up what they think. it's because of the amount of time spent on trying to pass successfully which they did in the end the health care legislation. they took more than a year debating, talking, pushing the health care legislation at a time when most of the country was preoccupied with getting a job and saving their 401(k).

thus, barack obama -- it gives the impression you know that he didn't hear the country. if ted kennedy had been alive working in the united states senate the way he could effectively work both sides of the aisle, orrin hatch, john mccain, people like that, once the health care bill was assured of having preexisting conditions in it, once it was assured of having coverage of all children in it, there are people quite close to ted kennedy who would have said, would tell you today, he would have stepped in and said you know, that's a pretty good deal. let's get going on other stuff right now five or six months into the debate. let's move on and get the rest of this later. >> willie, something that i learned with ted kennedy, something that you don't have enough in washington or in political culture right now, he is a guy who made friends across the aisle. he was a guy that -- >> yes. >> he would fight like hell politically. sometimes he got really tough and said some really bruising things. but at the end of the day, it was never personal with him. >> i think he was one of the

last of his kind and it was said many times when he passed away that he was a guy who had the power, not just the ability but the power to command the respect of the guys on the other side of the aisle and started conversations, something that is in great deficit today. unfortunately, we see it every time there is a big issue coming up in congress. there's not even talking on the other side of the aisle. they go through theater. they put out press releases attacking the other position. he was one of the last of his kind. >> and with senator kennedy, you know, such a big personality, and everybody knew him so well known it often though with him as i learned from you in a piece that you wrote that it's the things that he does that you don't see that show the true humanity. >> and mike has a thousand stories about the things that ted kennedy did to help people that were never in the newspaper. and in my personal case it was a beautiful note and a picture of bobby that he sent to me after i

got out of congress. he knew i was hurting. he knew we were going through a difficult time with andrew. he had just gotten diabetes. and wrote a personal note that actually brought me to tears. and i usually am brought to tears about once a decade. but the fact that -- seriously, about once a decade. >> usually has something to do with alabama football. >> no. but in this case just a man who did something he didn't have to do and you know what? it's so funny. i heard the same story a couple weeks ago from a friend in oregon. a week before ted kennedy passed away he reached out to somebody that had done a remarkable thing and said, i want you to know i'm a friend of yours. and let me know if i can ever help you out. >> when he was going through chemotherapy treatments at mass general hospital toward the end of his life, once a week he'd be driven from the cape up to boston, undergo chemo, and then back to the cape. and at least three times enroute back to the cape from mass

general hospital, where he would go by the home of someone who had lost a son or a daughter in iraq and/or afghanistan, unannounced, to pay his respects to the home. not the cemetery. to the home. >> wow. he was a great man. great man. who do we have coming up next, mika? >> coming up next we have the governor of delaware, jack markell joining us right here on the set. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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i was angry this weekend. listening to the spin coming out of the administration about the failure of the super committee and that the president knew it was doomed for failure so he

didn't get involved. well, then what the hell are we paying you for? it's doomed for failure so i'm not getting involved? i mean, you know, if he wanted to run for senate again and just be one of a hundred, i'm sure he could have gotten re-elected over and over again in illinois. he's got to get something done here. it's not good enough just to say i'll get it done after the election. >> you know, i got a motion. why don't we have chris christie and buddy roemer be the ticket for the republican party? those guys would get 80% of the vote. >> it would be good. >> you see that backdrop by the way? >> yeah. a kitchen. i mean, a real guy. you know what? >> he needs to come back on the show. >> he's going to come back. >> i've been bothering him. >> he'll be back. >> he doesn't get back to me as often as he used to. >> listen, look at this. how are you making the governor of delaware feel right now? >> that is true. joining us we have the democratic governor of delaware jack markell back on the show. good to see you.

how are you today? >> great. good to see you. >> governor, great to see you. >> you went to afghanistan recently. start there. >> i know these things. i follow him every day on twitter. >> you do? >> yes. so i'm just curious. what do you think about washington, d.c., failing to come together? and i'm pointing the finger at congress and at the president, failing to come together at a time of crisis? we were downgraded yesterday. and they can't come together and work like governors in all 50 states have to. >> this is why i'd rather be in dover than washington. i think pretty much all of my colleagues around the country say the same thing. we have to come together. we don't care whether a good idea comes from a democrat or republican. we got to get stuff done. we're not measured based on whether we give a good speech or on rhetoric. we're measured on real simple things like do we put people back to work and improve schools? that is the environment i'd rather be in and i think all governors would rather be in. >> what impact does it have on you as a governor of one of 50

states with tax shortfalls that washington, d.c. can't get its act together? that has a real impact not only on you but on counties and more importantly on cities and towns inside your state. >> well, look. there are two big impacts. first of all in terms of our own state budgets there is a lot of uncertainty right now with the failure of the super committee to know what the impact is going to be. the second impact has to do with the business environment. there is a lot of uncertainty in the business environment. as long as that uncertainty exists it is less likely people are going to be hiring. this is one reason i think we've got to get the -- continue the payroll tax credit and, you know, continue to focus jobs, jobs, jobs. >> given the fact that there is this uncertainty coming out of washington and there is uncertainty within the business community, you as governor, each and every day, where is delaware standing in terms of with other states worried about their pension system and perhaps, you know, cities and towns actually going bankrupt because of the pension liabilities?

>> well, we took on the pension and health care issue last year. we had the same issue every state has. we approached it in somewhat of a different way. we laid out the facts real clearly. it was spending a lot of money and increasing amount of money. we invited the leadership of the unions to the table. laid it out real clearly in a power point and basically said, we've got a problem to resolve. if you want to help us resolve it, that's great. i'm not interested in the big debate because the math is real clear. fortunately we got it done. >> so you travel overseas, went to afghanistan. what did you see? >> well, it was quite sobering. first of all the reason -- i should say at the outset i've spent all but about 30 hours in afghanistan. does not make my an expert. i went to see the members of the delaware national guard. we have a couple hundred over there. the work they're doing is extraordinary. the quality of our people over there absolutely incredible. at the same time, as soon as i got to afghanistan the first place i went was to the hospital at the bagram air base and literally a couple hours before i got there, in came a soldier who had lost both of his legs.

and there is just nothing like it. and you realize the incredible price these people are paying. and so on the one hand very sobering, very low lows to see the troops, to see their morale very high. but what an impossible job they've got. when you think they're trying to hand over security to the afghan military, the afghan police, the average literacy level is about first grade. they're trying to get it to the third grade. it is going to cost them $22 billion a year to handle their own security and entire economy is not that big. and you have the leader of afghanistan saying a couple weeks ago that if the u.s. and pakistan went to war he'd have to be with pakistan. what kind of signal does that send to our families? >> you talk about the impossible job they have which i would agree with you completely. i don't think it'll ever be finished. is it worth it? should we be there? >> look. here's -- i heard president clinton give a speech about a year ago on this topic. maybe a year and a half. here's what he said. he said he thinks having been in the white house dealing with these kinds of issues they are

so unknowable, so complex that he was going to go with -- he was going to support the decision that president obama made because president obama had access to so much more information than he had and certainly than i have as a governor. it's very hard for me as a governor to have to see families who have lost loved ones over there. when you ask the troops about the mission, what they think of the mission, what they told me is their mission is to make sure their buddy gets out of there safely. and that's how they think about it. >> you wrote about -- you were just talking about afghanistan. want to talk about other parts of the world. you wrote a while ago on the web a little about china. >> yes. >> i know you are very involved in china, bringing israeli businesses to delaware. >> right. >> for a lot of americans globalization is a foe. you know, they're worried about it and the threat of global competition. it sounds like you think there is a way in which globalization and trade relations can actually help your state. talk about that. >> well, let's face it. it's here to stay. anybody who thinks, i mean first of all, what is an american company these days?

3500 employees in delaware, the company is based in england. we have a steel plant in delaware based in russia. we have companies based in taiwan, banks based in the uk. what is an american company? and so the point is, as long as any of these companies are thinking about investing in other parts of the world or they're thinking about investing in the u.s., i want them to invest in delaware. i also want delaware poultry companies to be able to export their chickens all over the world. and, you know, this is real. so whatever the company, whatever it is that they make, the best opportunity for growth these days, let them go to an economy that is growing faster than ours and frankly these days there are a lot of economies growing quicker than ours. let's make sure that our companies, our businesses, our employees, can get the benefit of that. >> you got especially good chickens in delaware? >> we are huge in the chicken arena. >> just checking. >> it just occurred to me that as listening to you speak that delaware is sort of a pivot point for both of these book end issues. you've got dover. >> right. >> where families go to greet

sadly. you know, the remains of loved ones coming in from afghanistan. and you've got huge corporate entities. >> right. >> based in delaware. >> that's right. >> that's unusual. >> that's such a small state. we have a lot but it is a great place, fantastic place to do business. my job as governor just like all the other governors across the country, make sure we wake up every day and figure out how to improve the economic climate in our state. that's what it's all about. >> what is the unemployment rate in delaware? >> 7.9%. >> do you think this administration is leading us into better days in trying to bring that number down or is it going in the wrong direction? >> i think they're trying very hard. >> that's not my question. are there policies and -- >> look, i think, first of all, for example, the automobile bailout, was that the right thing to do? absolutely it was the right thing to do. >> yeah. >> i think, yeah. they're putting forth a lot of the right policies like the payroll tax credit i just mentioned. they're not getting much cooperation on the other side at all. and i think, you know, frankly partially -- part of our

responsibility here is to make sure we continue to pound away at the things that can lead to better economic times and not get distracted by some of the other issues. >> so talk about -- what's it like for a small business owner in delaware right now? how tough are things? >> what is getting in the way of them hiring more people and growing? >> demand. i mean, that is what is getting in the way. >> how do you drive demand? >> this is the whole thing. i think from a governor's perspective at a state level, we're not going to create the jobs. what can we do to focus on improving demand? we have to think exactly like the business owners themselves do. why would they decide to expand in delaware as opposed to some other place? >> why is that? >> there are about five things. they want to be in communities with great schools, with reasonable taxes, with a great quality of life because that is where the right employees are going to want to be. they want to be in a place with strong linkages between higher ed and local companies and in a place where the government is incredibly responsive. that's what we have.

>> so less taxes, less regulations, i'm being serious. it's a balancing act. you've got to balance less taxe great schools and it is -- it seems to me as a governor these days that is one of the most difficult balancing acts. >> it is a balancing act. but i'll also tell you this and i wrote something else a few months ago about this very issue. rick perry said if the rest of the country followed his approach to economic development our country would take off like a rocket. less taxes, less regulation, less litigation. and there are lots of places around the world with those things and they happen to be a place where there's not a strong middle class. that doesn't mean we shouldn't lower taxes or reduce regulation. you talk to leading business executives, people creating jobs in the first place. ask them what they care most about they'll start with the quality of the workforce. that's going to be number one. i was on "squawk box" a few

weeks ago. walter isaacson talking about steve jobs. i asked him. jobs -- lots of innovation out in california. not really that many jobs. he talked to jobs about that and jobs talked to the president. and what jobs said, mr. president, i've created 700,000 jobs outside of this country. you know what it would take to have a lot of those jobs in this country? 30,000 engineers to support all those other workers. >> governor -- >> i've just got to say, that remains one of the great mysteries. why barack obama will not agree, and this is what steve jobs said to him. and it's what thomas freedman has been saying for a long time. when somebody outside of the country gets an advanced degree you staple a green card to the back of their diploma. >> i think there's widespread support amongst democrats and republicans alike. hailey barbour ingets couldn't agree. >> if the white house will do it i think we can get it done. i love it. >> thank you very much. up next, they may be the last people on earth you'd want

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set, we have john heileman and richard haas. >> you know what someone asked me yesterday. what does joe have against newt gingrich. what's the deal with joe and newt. >> i got nothing. see, people think i got something against him. like for instance if newt just

stays in his lane and says things like, you know what? i've been inconsistent through the years, but this is where i am here. that's okay. that's fine. because that's telling the truth. but as judge judy says about my leg, i know, seriously. >> stop it. >> the guy talks about being a conservative. you can go all the way back -- newt ran as a rockefeller republican in '74 and '76 and lost. and he goes back and forth and bragged about being a rockefeller republican, even after he was in congress. and that's fine. embrace it. that is fine with me. but he won't do that. he claims i've been a conservative forever. in 1994. and this isn't personal. i think it's kind of funny. in 1994 he came into my race to endorse the moderate in my race and said i was, quote, too conservative to get elected. of course i got 62% of the vote.

but that's always newt. is it in fashion to be moderate this year or is it in fashion to be conservative. and this year it's fashionable to be -- i've got nothing personally against this guy. i've got nothing personal against michele bachmann. i've got nothing personal against a lot of these people, but a lot of them should not be running for president of the united states. >> the heavy lifting on the mitt as flip-flopper has been done. the obama camp, the white house, the dnc put out the ad. mitt versus mitt. he says one thing. so now he can ride that narrative. as he did yesterday in the radio interview, just playing on this. the dnc ad comes out that day and then he's helping push that along. >> john, but the thing is, the news and all of the crazy moderate to liberal statements he's ready in the past. even calling paul ryan a radical. >> you remember back at the first week of 1995 when you

first came into congress, the big headlines were around newt's ideas he was going to give laptop tax credits so that all poor children in america could have laptops. that's an idea that appeals to me. it's not an idea that appeals that most should be subdiesing laptops for all poor school children. there's a long history. the thing he benefits from is that the main guy who would be in a position to point out, besides joe scarborough, to point out his inconsistencies is mitt romney. mitt romney has his problem. so newt -- there's a muchly assured destruction thing going on that's holding romney back. >> how amazing, richard haas, that he calls -- newt gingrich has gone to calling the congressional budget office a socialist institution when it was newt gingrich who in 2004 if you want to say anything that's passed over the 25 years is

socialistic, it would be the $7 trillion unfunded medicare drug benefit part d plan which will bankrupt this country along with medicare if we don't do anything about it. newt gingrich said every conservative must support this bill if they are truly conservative. he supported the most socialistic scheme over the past 25 years. and yet because obama is a socialist, somehow the base is fine with that. >> it's hard to know where to begin on this. if one looks at the bush years. obviously an explosion of domestic spending, including the prescription drug benefit. one reason you have the schism in the republican party about the whole role of government and the issue of spending. >> let's hear what he had to say because he seems to want to engage in this game which probably isn't a good game for him to be playing. speaking to a charleston radio station, newt gingrich slammed mitt romney's record of changing positions while labeling himself the conservative alternative to the former massachusetts

governor. >> define conservative. >> anybody who is honest about it knows that no person except christ has ever been perfect. and so i don't claim to be the perfect candidate. i just claim to be a lot more conservative than mitt romney. and a lot more electable than anybody else. i wouldn't lie to the american people. i wouldn't switch my positions for political reasons. it's perfectly reasonable to change your position if facts change if you see new things you didn't see. everybody has done that. ronald reagan did that. it's wrong to go around and adopt radically different positions based on your need of any one election because then people have to ask themselves, what will you tell me next time? >> so he hasn't changed. how does he say that? again if newt had said i've flip-flopped just like mitt, i'm good with that. we're all good with that. he's being intellectually honest. that's just inlectually dishonest.

>> this is your quiz from politico which i think really narrows down the focus for people to help them understand. maybe they can take the quiz. >> right. >> and then look at the answer. >> is it hate snfl is it personal? >> it's not hateful. >> is it their opinion or quotes? >> i'm going to just read and disseminate information. i think you are good at being objective here actually. >> let's ask willie these questions. >> even better. >> willie. >> can you give me my life line on these. >> here are the questions. who said i will preserve and protect a woman's right to choose. i'm not going to change pro-choice laws in any way? >> that's an easy one. >> who said that? >> a. mitt romney. >> you are correct. let's go to the next question. who bragged about being a moderate with this comment. there's a new synthesis evolve with the classic moderate wing of the party whereas a former rockefeller state chairman -- >> hold on. he's bragging, though. >> synthesis gives it away.

look what he is saying here. he's bragging while being in congress that he has been in the moderate wing of the party most of his life and bragging about being a former rockefeller state chairman. who did that? >> that's going to be b, bravo. >> okay. this is a good one. >> newt gingrich for those listening. >> joe, this is a good caller. who starred in a 2007 global warming commercial with nancy pelosi that was sponsored by al gore's alliance for climate protection. >> saying that climate change was a big, big problem. >> that's going to be b newt gingrich again. >> maybe i think we have the video. >> this one is tougher. there's the video. >> isn't that sweet? >> that is sweet. >> look at that. they look so comfortable. that's bipartisanship. >> that's so nice. >> they are doing it for al gore, too. and that's the great thing. hey, al, this one's for you. why don't we play barry manilow.

"this one's for you." >> couch. a love seat. >> global warming is very important. and that's why they're important. >> what's the next question? this next one is a great one. >> i love how they give each other the look. >> who once famously said, i don't line up with the nra. >> you know who that is? >> mitt. >> romney? >> it's romney. yes it is. this next one is a tough one. this is great. this is a great one. okay. let's do this one. >> who said to a charleston radio station that he's more conservative and doesn't change his positions. but this next one is really tough. who was paid $312,000 by ethanol interests and then said ethanol is good for national security and for the economy. >> hold on one second. let's go over to richard haass because ethanol is good for national security. it's foreign policy. who said this? >> do i have my choices at least? >> a, b or c. >> we'll go with congressman

gingrich. >> it was congressman gingrich who said that. >> man, this table is like -- >> oh, this will be the last one. >> okay. one more. which candidate bragged about not being a republican during the reagan presidency and promised that if elected, he would not return to reagan/bush policies. >> you don't know that one? >> it's mitt romney. he bragged about not being a republican. well, let's just keep going. >> i've got one more. >> which candidate -- this is so great. which candidate told planned parenthood that he supported state funding of abortion? was it romney, richard? was it gingrich or huntsman? >> i pass -- i defer. >> that will be a. >> that's a, mitt romney. >> so this will be the final question. because you know what, you can see, i did that during '89. it was a summer of love. who remembered during the summer of love. >> he was stoned. >> this happened this summer. so if you were stoned when you said this, right, then you were

stoned this summer. and that's not going to help you out. final question. >> which, you know -- >> double jeopardy question. which candidate went on nbc's "meet the press" and called paul ryan's medicare plan radical and right wing social engineering? >> jon huntsman. >> i wanted rich toward have one. >> newt gingrich. >> no. >> so isn't it -- >> but isn't the real conclusion that the socialist moderate left winger in the group is jon huntsman because the answer was yes for him on none. >> actually -- >> he was not the answer on any of those. i thought he was the moderate in the race. he's the moderate, right? he's the liberal? >> read my politico article. here's another one. you have led me into this. the american conservative wrote this about which gop candidate. for the past two decades, a moderate republican one who didn't side with his party on taxes, guns and abortion. but this candidate's view is to the right of moderates and to the right of most conservatives.

>> jon huntsman of utah. >> no individual mandate, no employer mandate, no provision for expansion of subsidized care like obama care. >> jon huntsman. >> and final question, jon huntsman -- i mean john heileman. which candidate was cited for running the best managed state as being the most fiscally fit and ranked first for job creation. >> not mike huckabee. i think that might be jon huntsman. >> the bigger point here is that when it comes to throwing this rhino title around this year, it has very little to do with the record. it has everything to do with polimnics. are you like newt gingrich willing to call the secretary of hhs josef stalin. are you, like glenn beck going to pump up your cred by calling the president of the united states a racist.

are you, like newt gingrich going to say that democrats are run by the -- what was it? the secular socialist machine that -- >> colonial -- >> but newt gingrich said the democratic world view posed a greater risk to american democracy than nazism posed to the world. but if you say that, then you can support socialist positions because somehow your cred -- >> they are somehow hidden. >> -- is okay. >> it's twisted. >> self-destructive and it's why obama will win ultimately again if this continues and something doesn't happen. can i just speak for a moment about the least conservative candidate. the one who really has just no conservative credentials in this quiz. >> other than his conservative record. >> completely. jon huntsman unveiled his plan at a campaign stop in new hampshire sharpening his tone against mitt romney and suggesting his opponent is in wall street's pocket.

>> you should be wearev any candidate who carries all the endorsements of the members of congress. because this is going to be a status quo president. and anyone in the hip pocket of wall street because of all of the donations that they are picking up like mr. romney is these days is not going to be a change agent when it comes to fixing the too big to fail banking system. >> huntsman went on to unveil his plan to block future bailouts by capping their size and eliminating regulations. included in the plan, ending too big to fail. repealing the dodd/frank bill and permanently shutting down fannie mae and freddie mac. huntsman also says he believes capitalism must have the chance of failing in order to work. >> it's understandable why people don't have trust when it comes to wall street. we have six banks that are too big to fail. so we can stand here and we can get tax policy right. we can get regulatory policy right. we can move forward energy

independence. all things i want to do. and i know we can get done. we can fire the engines of growth for this great country and we're still left with six banks. >> if they falter if they're on the brink of disaster, they'll get a bailout because if they go down, an institution that is $2 trillion or $3 trillion in size, we all go south. and i say at the end of the day, we're setting ourselves up for disaster on wall street. capitalism without failure isn't capitalism. and that's exactly what we have done. >> i want to talk to both of you guys because this is a significant moment in this presidential campaign. we're not just saying it because jon huntsman said it. if someone else said it we'd be playing that. this is the first candidate on the republican side to go after too big to fail. that's more aggressive than barack obama. he's saying he's going to break up the big banks. that's closer to -- no, he has said that. >> i heard the plan. it's not quite that, but it's close. he has two things that are incredibly important. one is, he's got this proposal

to cap the size of the banks in maximum terms. doesn't necessarily mean break them up to cap their size. and the second, and i think there is no question that if you went around on wall street and asked people what the single most important reform would be to lessening the likelihood of a major systemic meltdown it is to have a cap on leverage. the amount of debt that banks are allowed to take up. he has a leverage cap in this thing. it's -- without question, the most seminal reform you could offer and it's very hard -- it's a very hard limit in his proposal. very strong plan. >> one of the great mysteries of american politics for us around this table over the past three, four years. too goig fail has been allowed to get bigger. barack obama is not moving on it. republicans are certainly blocking any efforts. you have elizabeth warren but few others talking about it. this is a pretty seminal moment in the campaign, isn't it? >> it points out the unintended consequences of a lot of the reforms. we've made a bad situation worse.

what huntsman is saying is something else. the answer to a lot of what we're doing is not simply in government stimulus. it's in restructuring the economy. that you have to create an environment where companies or banks can fail. that's essential. that's integral to capitalism. and the role of government is to essentially set the context. the role of sgft to set the table for economic growth to happen, for companies to succeed and for companies to fail. >> our next guest is not exactly among the 99%, but he's one of the most outspoken supporters of the occupy movement. russell simmons joins us after the break. also, he was the man behind some of music's biggest superstars from ray charles to aretha franklin to led zeppelin and the rolling stones. now the larger than life fig whour founded atlantic records and went on to change. the employee of the month isss...

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there are many news media outlets who say they don't know what we want. we have to tell them one thing at least. >> we have to tell them one thing at least. >> and that's we want freedom. >> we want freedom. >> from the politicians. >> from the politicians. >> from the corporate ownership. >> from the ownership. >> of their lives. >> of their lives. >> we have to get the money out of washington. that's all i came to say.

>> that was russell simmons recently in the heart of the occupy wall street movement. he joins us now. entrepreneur, actrift, music mogul among many other things. also author of the book "super rich," a guide to having it all. >> pleasure to be back. >> tell me what it is about the occupy wall street that so turned you on. people look at you as one of the leading lights of the 1% in this country. what do you see in that movement that you relate to? >> i see young, creative people who have high aspirations for this country. patriots who are out trying to make this country a better place. and i think they need our support. and i think their energy is educating a lot of people in the masses about inconsistencies and we talk about our democracy and our democracy is a bit flawed where people or politicians that we elect report to big business and special interest. instead of reporting to the people who elected them. and i think that's a fundamental flaw in our democracy. they are helping me to promote

ideas that will change that. >> they've been criticized for not having specific demands or not knowing what to do next. how do you harness the energy we've seen over the last couple of months across the country and turn it into the change you are talking about, which is in washington where politicians are not beholden to lobbyists or whoever gives them the most money at a fund-raiser. how do you change the way the system works? >> their dialogue, which is happening everywhere, so much more than ever before is promoting. i have this constitutional amendment. written by a senior senator. it's the idea to have public funding. no lobbyists. lobbyists to have dialogue, yes. but not lobbyists to pay off politicians. so the legal bribery can stop. they'll force their legislators to act appropriately. they are building an awareness camp pain that will make a difference in this country and one that we need. >> you just wrote a cover for for new york magazine about the occupy movement. what is their next move here? >> i think that's the big challenge for them. the question is whether they can do what the civil rights

movement did when it started. it was very much a, what do we want? freedom. when do we want it? now. eventually that moved to having organizations like the sclc and core and sncc that had specific agenda items. the question for a lot of people, i don't know if you hear this, there some are folks down there who really are reformers and they talk about how they can channel in this way. and there are others radical utopians. they don't knpt part of the system. they think somehow they can create a whole new way of living that has nothing to do with the politics of the moment. that's a fundamental tension that has to be worked out. >> i think the mayors are helping, enforcing them into offices and helping them be more productive in ways. the nucleus of the movement wants america to be better and wants to make the real changes that have to happen. so long as they are there, it allows people to use their energy and promote change and promote dialogue for that change. so i'm excited about the

potential and i really believe that we're going to make a difference. i'm a big supporter. >> we've got a couple of things going here really quickly. i'm going to ask alex if you can get any reports on this. first of all, american airlines has filed for bankruptcy. and also "the new york times" is reporting that iranian protesters have stormed the british embassy. we will keep you guys updated on that information as we move forward. and reuters has that as well. >> as a branding expert, what do you think occupy wall street is doing wrong? what would they improve upon to send a more clear, sharp message about -- >> well, i think revolutions take time. it's brand new. it's the beginning of a long, drawn out discussion that america has to have about its democracy and about the shifts that can be made to make this country better. so i think they are doing fine. the people who are the organizers see the potential for change and evolving the movement. i think they are doing a good job so far.

>> do they need more representatives who are well known in the main stream? even a leader? >> well, i think that the leaders are emerging, and again, the different mission statements that are being delivered from all the occupies across the country and around the world, frankly, are useful in road maps to making a better future. >> maybe someone like russell simmons. >> but i want to say, i want to push back on the idea because you hear it a lot that occupy wall street doesn't have a coherent message. i personally think -- >> i'm clear. we're good. >> i think it's as good as think different. it's as good as just do it. we are the 99%. >> pretty good. >> that is great. >> they are at wall street because wall street controls their future. and what they would like is the power back to the people. they'd like to control their future. and it's pretty simple. and they say it enough times.

the first thing on every one of their agendas as they do release demands or discussion items. that's the first thing that they are talking about. and they are not saying they hate big business or hate business. they just hate business controlling their future. >> but when you come up with -- >> it's a very simple idea. >> when you come up with a big idea you don't sit there and go through all the details. you go, okay. this is my big idea. this is where i want to end. i'll worry about the details later. let's start -- >> i have a very detailed four-sentence constitutional amendment written by a senior senator. think about the fact that we have this problem with the industrial complex. that's their lobbyist. think about the jobs overseas. that's their lobbyists. think about the lack of health care. that's the lobbyists. think about the problems that are affecting, that are disempowering the middle class. it's politicians working for special interests, rather than the people who elected them. and that's a simple mantra. we can get that done. >> can president obama who

represented hope and change four years ago, can he get it done? >> i don't think it's president obama alone. i think zee to watch our legislators. they are comfortable. even the most progressive democrats are sitting in their seats. people with the most money win every election. they don't want a level playing field. we have to watch all of our politicians. this is not an easy change. it's not an easy fight. but i think we can win it. and i think we can make this country a much better place as a result. >> do you agree the conventions in 2012 will be a great way for occupy wall street to get their message out? >> i think we'll be there. >> interesting. the book is "super rich," a guide to -- >> the sbook not about physical wealth. it's about operating from a place of needing nothing. "super rich" is like into the state of yeeg or christ consciousness or this consciousness where we operate from abundance. the book is about happiness and how happiness attracts the toys and the fringe benefits which are wealth and things of that nature. >> just to underline that fact.

he defines true affluence as a higher state of confidence. it's not about owning big jets. though, to be honest, willie, you and i would love to own big jets. >> and i bet russell does. >> up next -- >> thank you. >> the story of a man who discovered some of the greatest musical artists of all time. we'll be right back. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation, so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind.

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♪ i've got a song called "the mess around." >> it's a cute title. who wrote it. >> i did. >> ah, you wrote it. >> yeah. >> well, sing it to me, man. >> here we go. ♪ you can talk about the pit barbecue the band was jumping the people, too. they're doing the mess around ♪ ♪ they're doing the mess around everybody doing the mess around ♪ >> i liked it. >> oh, wow. >> that was a clip from the film "ray." jamming in the studio with ray charles. here with us now is robert greenfield, author of the last

sultan, the life and times of ahmet ertegun. thank you for being with us this morning. >> it is really hard to find somebody in music history, at least over the past 25, 30 years, that has dominated it more than the subject of your book. >> he actually dominated for 58 years. he was the head of atlantic records for seven decades and there's just no one who ahmet didn't bring to the public starting with laverne baker, ruth brown, ray charles. but then moving forward through the drifters and the coasters. bobby darin, sonny and cher. i'll keep going. >> my gosh. >> anybody inside the music industry understands this man was the giant of all giants. and yet most americans don't know his name. they will know a david geffin. >> he was david's mentor. >> right. >> he was never really main streamed, was he? >> he lived his own life. he very much was the last

sultan. born in the ottoman emppyre. came to washington with his father who was the ambassador to the united states and was possessed and obsessed with black music. what i like to say, without ahmet, i don't think aretha franklin sings at the inauguration of the first black president. he brought this music to a white audience. >> how did he find -- what was it about him, this one guy that found the biggest names? how could it just be one guy? >> what's interesting about the clip and ahmet hated the way he was portrayed in that movie. he said he dressed a lot better than the actor. ahmet wrote that song. he actually wrote "messing around." he couldn't sing. he had ears. he had this graeat ability to discover talent. ray charles did not sound like ray charles in the beginning. he sounded like nat king cole. led zeppelin.

springfield, crosby, stills, nash and young. loved and partied with kid rock. >> all genres which, as a music lover, if you find ray charles and turn ray charles into the ray charles we know. it's quite another if you find led zeppelin. the first really heavy metal band. and hear it and get it. >> be kind of like, you think of barry gordie, like motown. someone who dominated a particular genre. >> but then he also discovered the who. >> it's eclecticism is stunning. >> he left their care and cleaning to ahmet. >> and there was a lot of that. >> there was a lot of that. full-time job. >> the other thing we've left out is ahmet had the most relentless social life in the

history of western civilization. and he was out every night. >> is that a euphemism? >> for? >> social life? >> no he was out enjoying joints you wouldn't have walked into with a bodyguard. he just loved the music. from the highest levels to the lowest levels. >> yeah. >> and comfortable wherever he went because he had been born to such high society. >> privilege. >> such privilege. >> so how does a guy educated at embassies across the world born to privilege, how does he -- what -- when was the first time? because you hear john and paul and george, by the way, this is the tenth anniversary of george harrison's passing. but you hear them talk about it. and even i think mick jagger said the same thing. they heard "heartbreak hotel" and knew immediately that's what i want to do. what was his moment? >> his moment occurred in london when he saw duke ellington at the pallad aium when he was 12

years old. what shocked him was how loud the music was. they mixed the music down. they were afraid the grooves would break. he couldn't believe the bass and drum. and that's what atlantic brought to the world, which was the sound of the bass and drum which is the basis of rhythm and blues. >> what did he think about the state of popular music at the time of his passing. the direction it had gone? >> there's a funny story in there where somebody on the label assigned twisted sister. and ahmed said, i hit him, but what do i know. i haven't had a hit in seven years. >> he could hear everything. at the end of his life, kanye west was brought to him. it wasn't that he got old. he just stopped caring that much about the record business and concentrated on his art collection, his homes, his clothing. he had a personal life that i think only those who were born to royalty -- >> but he got kanye west.

when he heard it he thought this guy is a star? >> this unknown rapper was brought. i want to sample aretha franklin. we left out the fact that arena franklin was on atlantic. yeah, i'm going to call her right now. this kid is incredible. he's going to be a star. >> he's 80 years old and heard kanye west. it's insane. >> if you can be blurbed on the back of your book by jan wenner and kid rock, that's impressive. >> pretty much covers the waterfront. >> this is really cool. the book "the last sultan." >> thank you so much. come back. >> thank you all. we're following two breaking news stories right now. protesters reportedly stormed a british embassy in iran. we're following that and reading up on it. the ap is confirming it as well. also american airlines filing for bankruptcy. details on those stories in just a moment.

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ttd# 1-800-345-2550 breaking news from iran this morning where a number of protesters have reportedly entered the british embassy in tehran. an nbc cameraman says the demonstrators have torn down the british flag and replaced it with the iranian flag. reuters is quoting a local news report there that says as many as 50 people are still inside the building. the report also says the crowds smashed windows and seized classified documents as embassy employees escaped through the back door. a spokesperson for the british foreign office says the country is outraged by the incident calling it utterly unacceptable. that official called on the iranian government to act

urgently to bring the situation under control. >> as we look at these pictures, mike barnacle, you and i are the only people around this table that remember the day in 1979 when the iranians stormed the american embassy. these are different times. you have syria now being basically isolated from the arab league, from the united nations. and that government will most likely fall over the next three to six months. that further isolateso]a iran. this is actually not a positive development for an iranian government that is soon going to find itself isolated in the world. >> the phrase mika just read, the embassy employees escaped out a back door. escaped to where? the streets of tehran? in a clearly, look at it, clearly combustible situation in a country that is totally paranoid. we had the iranian -- one of the iranian leaders on last week. totally paranoid about the west and about the implementation of what they claim to be their

peaceful nuclear intentions. several explosions within iran, including one in tehran on the outskirts of tehran just yesterday. this is an extremely volatile and dangerous situation. >> and john heileman, add this parallel to the parallel many have been making between jimmy carter in '79 and obama. i suspect, though, this time, there's going to be a different ending to this story. obviously, we all know the -- not only the obama administration, but all of official washington and the west trying to figure out what their next step is against an iranian government that is clearly out of control. >> yes. and your point earlier, just a few seconds ago about the situation syria is an extraordinarily unstable time in this region. and, you know, we talked to richard haass about this

earlier. the administration is playing with a -- the combustiblity across the region, it is -- i can't think of anything that's more of a parallel than the fall of the berlin wall and the eastern bloc. there's that level of a historic change for the president and his foreign policy team to take on. they are managing the transformation of a region right now and there are a lot of uncontrollable forces. this is unpredictable how it's going to play out but it's going to pose a challenge for the rest of this year and into 2012 and it's probably the fundamental foreign policy challenge he'll face over the next term. >> the question has been whether the united states and allies in the west as well as israel move militarily on iran. i don't know if those online services where you bet on presidential candidates also have odds on military attacks. but if they do, the odds just

got much better that this iranian government is going to face a military strike before the 2012 elections. >> it doesn't look good at all at this point. we'll be following this developing story. we have another breaking news story. it's our business before the bell headline. the parent company of american airlines has filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. in a statement, american airlines says the filing is voluntary and an effort to achieve, quote, industry competitiveness by reducing costs, including labor. american airlines, american eagle and all other subsidiaries will continue to fly normal schedules throughout the process. >> mike, the airline industry is such a dreadful, dreadful business. it's hard to make a profit. if you are making a profit, chances are very good you aren't being run by airline people. you are being run by accountants and you are offending passengers day in and day out. it is a miserable, miserable business to run.

>> it is a two-tiered nightmare. it's certainly a nightmare. we can see that from american airlines filing for bankruptcy. it's a nightmare for the business end of it. it's a terrible nightmare for passengers. i don't care whether you are taking the shuttle or flying cross-country. it is a total nightmare. >> hell on earth. >> it really is. travel in this country, including all the airports that need to be retooled and refurbished on the east coast. it's a nightmare. >> willie, it -- i've actually changed my habits. i've flown a lot of different airlines and i've had good experiences at different airlines. but at this point, and i'm not advertising for anybody, i seek out jetblue. because i know what i'm going to get. i know the planes i'm going to get. and they have some problems once in a while, but there is a consistency with that airline that if other airlines could bottle it, they'd be a lot more -- i don't even know how jetblue is doing financially.

>> the others are competing at how bad. >> when i get on jetblue, i'm on one of two airplanes. you don't get that in the industry. >> better yet, take amtrak. that always seems to work. delta, united, they filed for bankruptcy a decade ago. allowed them to reorganize. maybe this is good news for american. that way they can get some of the labor costs off their books and move forward. >> and still lose your bags. >> more "morning joe" in just a moment. capital one's new cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus! so you earn 50% more cash. according to research, everybody likes more cash. well, almost everybody... ♪ would you like 50% more cash? no! but it's more money. [ male announcer ] the new capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? woah!

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mitt romney. who gets a tip of my hat for his new ad which nails barack obama using obama's own words. >> if we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose. >> of course, the democrats are claiming that obama's not talk about the economy, quote from 2008 was taken out of context on the technicality that it was. here's the original. >> senator mccain's campaign actually said, and i quote, if we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose. >> now, sure, hold on. hold on. he explained this out of context edit in one sentence. >> what's sauce for the goods is now sauce for the gander.

>> yeah, sauce for the goose is now sauce for the gander. and it does not matter if the gander that the goose is talking about was quoting an old duck. the point is -- those words came out of obama's face. now they're his words. i mean, just like some of my most famous quotes. ask not what your country can do for you. ask what you can do for your country. now mine. love thy neighbor as thyself. i own it. i don't think you are ready for this jelly. my body's too booty licious for you, babe. i own all those words. o0 c1 20 hey guys, what can i get for you?

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good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the east coast.

>> welcome back to "morning joe." what have you learned today? >> for one brief shining moment yesterday, there was a glimmer of hope for asset wealth managers in greenwich, connecticut. they finally got their day in the sun taking home $250 million. >> ahmet ertegun, how old was he when he heard kanye? >> 80. >> unbelievable. mike? >> i was close to that age when i said the same thing. i learned they can remake "it's a wonderful life" up there in greenwich. >> what did you learn? >> take your time. >> a couple of things. today is the tenth anniversary of the passing of george harrison. we want to remember him here. also, of course, remembg d ted . barack obama could use him right now. >> we all could. >> so could america. a good, good man whether you