vo: earn points for the things you're already buying. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. hello from new york, i am chris hayes. a study finds that over the last decade white people who apply for presidential pardons have been four times to receive them as others. and right now with a msnbc contributor, gerald bernstein, a adviser to advisory president, and katrina, a dear friend of mine and a mentor, one of my

boss's editor of a magazine, and fighting for progress in the age of obama, and you see our next guess here on dylan ratigan's program, and it's great to have you. i have to give a shotout to my mom who made coffee cake for you guys. >> it's a beautiful thing. >> thanks, mom. >> we're a month away from the iowa caucus, herman cain suspended his race, otherwise known as getting out of the race, but staying in the race to raise money to get rid of the debts. and gingrich in the lead, and ron paul at second at 18%, and mitt romney in third.

also last night, mike huckabee hosted a forum on his fox news program, and it was a strange format. each candidate sat alone on the stage, questioned by a panel of republican attorneys general and it generated all the fire and passion of a oral exam. it was a moment where you realize that this is's a cultural divide aside from the substantive divide between liberals and conservatives, and part of it comes down to things that get you going. i understand people that really get going on abortion or gay marriage, but what was so interesting about the forum is so much lingered on the 10th amendment, and i had no subjective access, i have to say, as a liberal to, getting worked up about it. it was like whichever way the program works, if the federal government has it or the state government has it, and what we

saw was a real passionate, almost visceral argument over this. katrina, what do you make of this constitutionalism that seems to be the dominant fashion in right wing politics right now? >> you have had the 10th amendment of the center, and it now has reached the culmination. i always found it fascinating. we had iraq, but you do have the tension between state laws and federal laws, and some of the state laws are stronger, for example, in california on a mission control, but they are overtaken, but what struck me was the format, you know, it was like an oral exam, and it was exhilarating after the reality show gop debates and it was gotcha politics -- >> you found it substantive?

>> i was struck by the attorneys general. you had ken -- >> yeah, he was there. >> they were calling for the unconstitutionality overturning the health mandate, and he is raising money saying that left wing kcommon taters are after him. >> the embedded principle that they wanted to communicate was the federal government so the way they embodied that was to have candidates for office submit themselves to the questions of the state attorney generals, and beg for the approval -- >> yes. >> sort of an ingenious but

strange format. >> the governor is trying to turn over the -- >> well, i was going to say a lot of it is the tantrum, because as was said, it's easiest to ignite people against the common evennemy. it takes on a life of its own. i find a certain laziness at the heart of the aspect. >> i think there is -- i think that's true. there is also a lot of sincerity. it was manifest and people do take the state and federal division of power and that has been used as a proxy for very -- >> all sorts of things. >> yeah, but what i did think was interesting is you do have a

situation in which the conversation that happened last night was much more airid, much more technical than the kind of red meat i was expecting. >> i would challenge the premise of this and how genuine and core this notion of state versus federal rights is, because it seems to me that on issues where the right prefers a more strong central hand, the right is very happy to embrace that. choice is one example of that. the gun laws are another one. you can have a state, which is quite a liberal state, maybe a urban state that doesn't want people to be able to carry concealed and the right is pushing hard for people to be able to do that. >> i agree with that. a lot of opportunism up there. one of them asked michele

bachmann about the epa, and they said no more epa, and they all signed off on cutting a number of agencies when they can remember -- >> yeah, what that is. >> and the question is what if one state is contributing to the pollution of another, what would you do about it, and of course, there is really kind of heavy silence, and i thought that was kind of an interesting moment in the sense of it's always easy to particular off all of the stuff that you take apart, but the minute you think about it for a microsecond, you are stuck. this is a very common problem. >> or when michele bachmann talked of her immigration program, and a attorney general of florida said who is going to pay for that? my state will not pay for that. it's like passing the buck. >> and i did not mean to interrupt you, but what you see in these debates, which i actually enjoy watching the debates in some senses, you do

get interesting fisurs -- i want to bring in reverend samuel rodriguez, and he is representing over 34,000 churches. it's great to have you on the air this morning, and thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> i want to start off with the topic we are talking about the fixation last night, the focus on the relationship in the states and federal government, how much do you feel that that is a fis rul -- >> well, the idea of limited government to a degree speaks to a great concern of the conservatives, particularly those right of center, and not necessarily hard right but right of center, and concerned with the idea that government has become too big x if government

comes too big, two objects cannot occupy the same face. if the government is growing and family is decreasing, and if some add here to a strong faith narrative, they believe some of our individual rights are sacrificed on big government. that's the speech engaged in conservative circles. as a latino center right conservative, i think we have other concerns that go way beyond yesterday's debate. i think yesterday we did not have too many african-americans or latinos tuning into a debate where three attorney generals were speaking to newt gingrich talking about what happened in 2004 is germane to 2012. >> it's the principle that

unites the conservativsmconserv it's more worried about the growth of government, the growth of the state, and the limitation on freedom, as the government grows, the family shrinks. you just said so. it seems to me, and i just had a newborn child, and i have friends in canada who have the state mandated five months of fully paid paternity leave. it's split between mothers and fathers and it could be up to a year i think. but the point being, there are places in which state policies like that, more socially democratic governments seem also to produce more family-friendly policies. i think a lot of americans would love to have six or eight or ten or 12 months after the birth of a child to care for them and bring their family together and our lack of family-friendly policies like that make that difficult. isn't there some contradiction there? >> there is to a degree.

but particularly in communities of color, when we have seen government programs way beyond lbj, but since lbj up to this moment, government programs that have inessence, they have run counter to, let's say, mobility. for example, we have communities in los angeles, new york, orlando, dallas, where the father is no longer in the home. for many reasons. social economic reasons. the reality is with government subsidizing that family we still see communities of color struggling. the issue is i think government has a role in taking care of those that cannot take care of themselves, and communities may kifr from white conservatives on this issue. the question is when is government too big. when is government replacing the role of family where it's jeopardizing the success and the

verdict kul m verdict kul of that family. >> i want to take a break and come back and continue the conversation. ♪ boom, boom, boom, gotta get-get ♪ ♪ boom, boom, boom, gotta get-get ♪ ♪ boom, boom, boom, gotta get-get ♪ ♪ boom, boom, boom it's like looking into the sun. ♪ boom, boom, boom we're rocking the beat, kids! wow. [ male announcer ] get low prices on this season's hottest games. like the black eyed peas experience for kinect for xbox 360. rated t for teen. backed by our christmas price guarantee. save money. live better. walmart. sweet & salty nut bars... they're made from whole roasted nuts and dipped in creamy peanut butter, making your craving for a sweet & salty bar irresistible, by nature valley.

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what is at the heart of this is america is a moral enterprise, and we are sick from inside when it comes to the state of our family and the state of this moral enterprise that is america. when we have thousands of children being aborted still every day and we see marriage being attacked and falling apart, and a truce is really not a truce in this case, it's a surrender. >> that's rick santorum last night at mike huckabee's forum on fox news. when he talks about a truce, he

talks about a social truce, and they said conservatives we need a social issues truce, and we need to stop focusing on gay marriage and abortion. and what do you make of that when you hear that? i was struck last night by how absent some of the sort of most basic social conservative issues were from that forum. we were expecting a lot more of discussion about traditional evangelical issues and social conservative issues. do you see the social issues truce taking shape on the right? >> i do. not necessarily that i am wholeheartedly endorsing the idea, and then we would have to redefine what the social issues are. they end of the day, the republican party finds itself divided whether or not it's going to promote the tea party agenda, or the social

conservative evangelical agenda, or will it be mitt romney or newt gingrich. but it could alienate some of the evangelical voters. >> so look -- >> this is jared bernstein. >> nice to hear you, reverend. i was struck by the absence of actual numbers and facts from this part of the debate, i have to say. while i understand where the reverend is coming from, in fact, if you actually ask how big government has gotten, and you look at it as a share of gdp, which is the accepted way of doing so take out the impact of the recession, because the government will be larger in an economic downturn, and i will ask you about that in a second,

reverend, and in fact the president spends about 22% of gdp, which happens to be about the same as ronald reagan and the average in the last 40 years has been 21%. there is no there there. the expansion the reverend may be referring to has to do with the safety net that kicks in when the economy goes south. as you talk about big government and the problems there in, i would argue the safety net has been insufficient in keeping people falling out of it in the great recession. i know you represent a lot of the kinds that i am talking about. could you try to square that for me? >> sure. again, i may differ from the traditional sort of white conservative, but i actually support something called the circle of protection, and -- >> i know that well. >> i met with the president in order to make sure that certain items in the budget that would

egregiously impact poor and ethnic communities would not be sacrificed as it pertains to some of the budget negotiations. we have different optics here. a latino conservative may not equate to a white conservative. and i would not identify myself as a white ring republican, but that being said, there's an idea embedded with the angelical community that is historic, and there's something called the american exceptionism, and it's god over man and man over government. that's the idea. and that's the pecking order. when government grows, one of the two other elements must move out of the way. what we are concerned with in my community, when we hear terms like government bailout of the auto industry and the health care industry, and fannie mae and freddie mac, and government

takeover, government takeover, and when that happens what is sacrificed on the other end? that's our concern with the other government. >> i am more moved about the point you made about absent fathers. seems to me these issues of the families would be more resident with your constituency than for example what went on with fannie mae and freddie mac. and there was a time in the '70s and the '80s where the government was involved in what you could call subsidizing people not to be married and that was a problem for minority communities, and i am with you on that, and i think welfare reform in 1996 was a wonderful thing, but the idea that this is about the federal government versus states is perplexing to me, because why couldn't doing things the right way be a matter of what the federal government does as well instead of a patchwork of states coming up with plans creating real change

in families. if we want change in the family, do we want to rail against government when government can do good things and bad things in these cases, where we have actually seen? >> what do you mean by railing against the government? >> it pertains to which side of the fence you turn on, and the issue of state's rights versus federal rights, of course, that sort of argument was used to perpetuate the idea of slavery in the 1800s, and now today we are looking at alabama and arizona engaging those states rights to alienate communities that i hold near and dear and advocate for. i am not completely in favor of the federal government basically doing nothing, and applying sort of a herbert hoover or eisenhower motif -- >> there you go. >> but there's an egregious, in my opinion, intrusion in certain

areas where the states do have the responsibility of pushing back, particularly in the area of education. i do have a concern. i am not advocating of doing away with the department of education, but i have concerns of educational matrix laid out there -- >> well, just to be clear, the federal government is a small partner in education, at the state and local level. it's 8% of the total level. i understand your opinion around mandates -- >> one of the things that was discussed last night at great length was the race to the top program when the obama administration has put in place which is using this sort of quite clever means of getting policy changes in having a pot of money that states can compete for. the agenda they are pushing for, some are not happy about. reverend, i will ask you to

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is your auto and home insurance keeping up with you? contact your local travelers agent, or call 800-my-coverage. i am suggesting that this only apply to people who have been here a very long time, who have a real tie to the local community, and were exploring the idea that they would actually have to have a family sponsoring them to be eligible for review. now, to suggest that a model that only works after 20 or 25 years is going to be a magnet, i think, is nonsense. >> that was newt gingrich discussing and defending his proposal for immigration, and what was interesting about that, reverend, immigration has been a real hot point in the debates, and any candidate that has attempted to propose a policy or defend a policy that is not completely against anybody getting any citizenship and

shutting down the borders has opened themselves up to attack, and he was being defensive and back on his heels after defending something slightly more humane and open, and latino's will be a key swing vote in the election, and what do you make about the politics as they see out in the debates? >> whoever wrote the man mull as it pertains to 2012, that american needs to be sat down somewhere, and psychoanalyzed. i believe it's political suicide. the republican party is committing political suicide. immigration reform rhetoric. it's absurd. i can't explain it. without the latino electorate, it's impossible to take colorado, new mexico and

florida. those are swing states. they voted in favor of bush in 2004, 44% of latinos, and that number diminished to the low 30s. and the problem is not even about securing the borders. you don't hear any of the hopefuls saying we are anti-illegal immigration, but wholeheartedly in favor of legal immigration. >> that's not entirely true. the line about being we are against illegal immigration, and for legal immigration, that's mitt romney's line. >> how huh style does your community feel america is becoming for immigrants? i am speaking from my own experience, i am canadian and probably the only nonamerican

sitting here in this conversation, and i am grateful for my card, but i found crossing the border to be an increasingly unpleasant experience. i forgot my green card, and i had my passport, and it's really deeply unpleasant. everybody i foe who is not american is now finding -- this is not people of color, and you know, there's really a sense of active aggressive hostility intentionally making you miss your plane, and intentionally treating you in a demeaning way. i have had people citing the new laws, you watch out we are not a country that likes people like you. >> reverend, do you feel there has been a dark direction in which things moved in that respect? >> without a doubt. once again, this spirit emerges in america. the chinese execution acted like

this so i never would have believed my children would have had to encounter some of the things we are hearing. i just came back from alabama, and in arizona three weeks prior, and it's totally amazing to me, and it's beyond me, a generation that we confront these issues in the 21st century. that's why i may be right of center, but i am an independent. i have a problem with the donkey and with the elephant for different reasons. with the elephant, my problem is this issue of immigration. what is the conservative movement trying to conserve, by the way? a pig men tags? >> pretty much. >> a western european majority? what are they attempting to conserve? if it's the ideas, that's one thing, and if it's trying to conserve ideas of pat buchanan,

and resurrecting george wallace, that's another, and i don't want to be part of that resurrection or conservative movement. the republican party needs to have the road to damascus experience. >> reverend you talked earlier about how there were different republican parties. as you look out at the census figures for 2050, when this country will become a minority country, and how much of the phobia do you see as central? you talked about political suicide, but perhaps they are looking at a country that once existed, and we are seeing some of the up surge of what chris and others have talked about. >> this is what i think. at the end of the day you will see an emergence of an independent movement that will run an alternative narrative to the republican party and to the

progressive liberal democratic party. there's a brand-new movement moving in america. it's center right and not hard right. it's the kecircle of protection and it does not alienate or polarize. it's difficult to explain. but it's emerging. i think the community will emerge as the political apparatus in the 21st century. that rhetoric is alienating to occupy the white house in 2012. mitt romney is not doing a great job in winning latino voters over. newt gingrich is doing better, you about at the end of the day, there will have to be a mea culpa with the latino community, with hey guys, sorry, it was just a campaign, now we need you for the election. >> great, and thank you for joining us this morning. appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. our exclusive interview with a first tv appearance after his

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there is something wrong, deeply wrong, with our current democratic process when the most qualified man to over see the implementation of president barack obama's affordable care act is no longer in a position to do so. dr. don burwick left his position on friday after 42 republican senators vowed to block an up or down vote on his nomination. they complained he was a socialists and citing one speech he gave as evidence as well as one quote from an interview and made sure that a man referred to by the health policy journal health affairs as quote, one of the nation's leading champions patient center never even got a hearing. and this is something else they

had to say. it's difficult to find any health care state groups that express anything less than glowing praise for his performance at cms. joining us now is dr. don burwick. this is his first television interview since stepping down from the centers for medicaid and medicare services. thank you for coming on. >> thank you for having me. >> i hope it's okay if we sit here while i read glowing quotes about you for an hour. >> you have my permission. >> what were you doing to implement the affordable care act and how poorly understood the act is in a second, but i want to start out by talking about what your background was before you came into the position that you did, why the president thought you were qualified for this position and what you devoted for career to before coming.

>> i also trained in public policy, and i got interested in quality of air. it was evident to me as a doctor that things were not going well, costs were way out of control due to waste and i got interested in modern methods of improvement and for over 20 years i worked on taking methods of improvement, the kind of things that made improvements and cars and making other production things better, and i started a nonprofit institute, and we worked globally on health care improvement, 70% or 80% in the u.s., and i saw how much progress could be made in health care improvement, and the affordable health care act is something like that, and i don't know why the president asked me to do the work, but he saw as i did as leapfrog into a whole new level of performance with the technologies and information that we have today.

>> what is fascinating about the work you did at ihi, and it was fascinating, but not politically polarizing work, and you were not in the streets getting arrested for a single payer. the work you did was kind of importing the quality maintenance processes from places like manufacturing. toyota makes sure the doors fit squarely, and so it's something as simple as making sure that hands are washed and entering and leaving a room, right? small interventions had huge effects in terms of fatalities in hospitals. >> yeah, there's technical stuff that works. there are hospitals that eliminated infections, and there's leadership challenges, and in order to allow that to happen you have to have executives and leaders who are committed to improvement of quality, focused totally on the patient as their main line of work. and there's really a kind of cultural or spiritual quality,

because the workforce wants to make care better, they do, but sometimes they don't have the opportunity to do that. setting up context in which they can improve their work as they go, that's part of the job also. >> i am walking us through the story here, because i think it's a remarkable arc of doing the work of what somebody was doing, and overnight you were turned into a villain by this sort of conservative media complex, and you were being called a socialists. you got the full kind of van jones treatment for a few days there, and you and i are friendly and we know each other and i was e-mailing you during this. jon kyl, i will play this. >> the last thing the president wanted was a discussion of dr. burwick's views on health care. his views are not the views of

the american people supporting and rationing as he does, and his love affair with the british single payer system as he described it, and this is not something the american people would have counted, and so they held off until after the health care debate was over with. >> that's jon kyl speaking about the recess appointment you received. i will give you a chance to respond and talk about what it's like to be caught in the tractor beam of the fox spaceship right after this break. t making it br. more colorful. ♪ and putting all our helpers to work? so we can build on our favorite traditions by adding a few new ones. we've all got garlands and budgets to stretch. and this year, we can keep them both evergreen. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot.

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the case against you were two points as far as i could tell. you gave a speech to the national health service in britain saying kind things about their system there, and you had a quote where you said, of course we will ration health care and the question is whether we ration with our eyes open or not, and those two things were woven into the narrative that you were the socialists that was going to impose obama care. what was it like to go through that experience, and to have your name on fox and being sort of castagated for these views? >> my overall experience has been an incredible time in health care, on majestic law, and lots of activity around the country and i feel lucky to have had the experience and i don't have a burden of the experience about it, and it's a

misunderstanding and lack of understanding. i thought i was going to have a hearing, and his first words to me, he said i have not seen a single thing that you have said or written that i agree with. that's not a framework for a conversation. and these sound bites kept coming at me. i worked a lot in the uk, partly because they were having troubles. troubles with waiting times and the reliability of care and i knew i was interested in quality and they asked me to come over and work and i did for a decade trying to help the system get through a passage into better shape. the speech that was quoted, it was the 60th anniversary of the health service, and i was commending them for the universal coverage. this was before the affordable health care -- >> you should have got over there for the 60th anniversary and trashed the thing. >> yeah. i admired the fact that they had

everybody covered. they wanted to know what we were doing about the quality. that was the context. the quote was about on rationing, we will ration with eyes closed or open. what i mean is my daughter, just a few weeks before the quote, she needed a lab test, and i know she needs it, i am a pediatrician, and the insurance said it was not covered, and i asked who made that decision that that test is rationed to her, and you cannot get a number or name? what i said, we need the lights on? we need that decision making to be done in daylight, and the quotes are nearly out of context. >> and this is true an opt ed praising your work, he has worked for years to spread the word is the same systematic approach to quality control worked so well and can create a safer and in manufacturing could

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we have with us, joining us via satellite from boston, don burwick. he was forced out because of republican opposition. let's talk about the affordable care act. we have had some enlightening conversations on the legislation. what do you think is the most poorly understood part of this act? what do americans not get about what the affordable care act is? >> well, will you give me two? >> yes, you get two. >> it's two acts. there's one law, and the first is about coverage, and the most important thing here -- it's really about justice, making us

become a country where health care is a human right. it means can you get health care. i think the public might think that's about other people getting health care, and it's about the poor and people of disadvantage being able to get care. but it's actually about you. whoever you are. because you are in a health care system where before that law an insurance company can take away your insurance if you get sick or if you change jobs. they could decide not to give you insurance because you have diabetes or a heart attack or at risk, and that's silly. the coverage piece is about security for having health insurance in our country. it helps us all. i think the public wants us to be a country where health care is a human right, like all other western democracies. >> that's the first part that got the most attention during the discussion of the bill. tell us about the second part, which has been interesting to me when you and i have discussed it. >> well, that's about quality.

and they are related. the thing that people don't understand is this, in health care, just like in any other sector of the economy you are likely in, better quality is associated with lower costs. you know that, you buy a lemon when it's a car and it will cost you more. when they make computers better year after year, the prices go down and the functions go up. better quality and lower costs go hand and hand. there are things about quality, like features that you buy, like a moon roof, and it adds costs, but when things get better for the patient and family costs go down. people don't get readmitted to hospitals when postoperative care is right, and the cost goes down when you don't get an infection. if elderly people can't get to drugs, then they get sicker, not more well, and the costs go up. so the agenda of improvement of care is crucial to the agenda of

sustainability of justice in health care. >> doctor, thank you for the kind of work that you have done and what you have said. it's an inspiration hearing you, and it's also, i have to say, depressing that you are not where you should be. the same thing happened to peter diamond, by the way, also up in massachusetts, a nobel laureate economists that was able to be a federal reserve governor, and we need you and him and we don't have it now. i want to make two points and get your response. one on rationing. the idea that the current system doesn't currently ration is nuts. we ration on price. you want to talk about coverage. there are 50 million uninsured people that can explain clearly the experience of rationing, and what i want to talk about a

second is riffing off of chris's question. i am down in d.c. defending the affordable care act, and with you where you are, and the difficulty of getting these things into positions, what can we do? give us guidance. we need help getting the affordable care act over the barriers here. >> leaders like you need to speak up in -- on the moral high ground about what it means to be a country where you get care, no matter who you are or the size of your wallet or the color of your skin, and you need to talk about the confidence. i visited senior centers when i was in that position, and loved it and was great to sit down with the people, and they were always frightened things would take away, and five minutes later they were onboard, and you would explain, no your care gets better now, and your doctors will be paid to coordinate care

and be paid for how well you do instead of how much they do. that's an easy sell. but we need people selling that point. on rationing, yeah, you are right. our country, the governor of oregon used to say, we ration people and not care, and we say you can have it and you can't, you have this limit and you don't. that's not fair. it hurts people that need us the most. i don't think we need to ration care. we don't need that. make care better so we can have more of it. >> doctor, you are a pediatrician, and former head of the centers for medicare and medicaid services, and thanks a lot for what you have done there and thanks for coming on this morning. it's a great pleasure. >> thanks, chris. congratulations on your baby. >> thanks. the fight to recall walker is on in force. we will talk to the head of the firefighters union right after this. with the capital one venture card

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now through january earn a free day with every two rentals. find out more at nationalcar.com. hello, from new york. i am chris hayes. i have msnbc contributor, and a former chief economists now with the senator for budget and policy priorities, and by boss at the change national magazine, and we're supposed to -- we have a great guest who is head of the firefighters union in wisconsin. we just finished a fantastic interview, and i want to debrief what we heard.

he articulated the best case i have heard for the affordable health care act. >> he also hears an extraordinary decent and humane, a man that knows the field better than anybody. to me it suggests a few things, one the dysfunction of the system, the republicans who would holed up the confirmation, and he became a pinata for the affordable care act. as the former head of the agency ran under bush said you could not get gandhi through the -- >> he was a polarizing figure. >> what he spoke for me is so important. and essentially, he is saying, health care is a human right, it's a human right and it's a disgrace and ashame that this country does not have it. >> and my question to you, why

haven't you guys pushed that more? why haven't you made the case as the doctor did, this was a shame and disgrace, and that living in the world's most powerful country, people could die because they are bore is disgusting. >> well, it's clear from the beginning the case made by the administration was not a case about the moral imperative of covering everybody. that was a strategic decision to make about what was bending the cost curve, and why that decision was made and was that the wrong way to go about selling the act? >> i don't know that it was a wrong way. we did pass an affordable care act. >> fair point. >> it was really a heavy lift. it's under attack from all sides, and if the doctor were still in the picture it would be a lot easier. it's not dead by a long shot. and getting it over the

political barrier was an accomplishment. but when somebody described affordable health care, there was a bunch of people on the ship barely staying afloat, and then there's a bunch of people out on the ocean trying not to drown -- >> i would not go with that as the argument selling it to the american people. >> i did not say i agree. it's the underlying idea that you have to convince people what is it in for them. >> i think it was about rich americans feeling like i am okay, i have my private insurance, and i am not willing to pay for -- >> senior citizens covered by medicare. >> i wanted to ask the doctor, my husband has been on medicare for a few years and he keeps giving me the materials to show how successful and effective it is, and he is a huge proponent of it.

what does dr. burwick think about care for all? talking about the balance between the state and the federal government. in vermont, you do have a medicare for all systems, and you may see in states that emerging, because the affordable care act will come in and you need to cover more. >> seems to me the doctor was psychologically healthy, because i wished there were more fire in his belly. this could be unsafe at any speed, and i think it has the drama. if we who write a short book and get help doing it if he doesn't feel like doing it himself, these two bring the issues to the public. >> and because it's in every family's life. every family, every friend. everybody has a story. >> and the more -- in a sense, the more dysfunctional health care system that we have reaches more people, the more resident

the kinds of things he said will be. >> here is the key he made that i have not heard made. i think people have a sense that we are dealing with a fixed pie at a zero sum game, and what will happen is you will give health care to these people and there is there's a fixed quantity of it and i will get less. and the key point is the more comprehensive the system is the better it works together and we engineer a high quality system, and what happens is the costs come down. >> it's also the reality of how bad and how dysfunctional american health care is. this is my other question to jar you had, in terms of how the administration made the case? what i also felt as quite surprising, not as much emphasis as the facts merited on how bad the system is now, and maybe that's because of the american exceptionalism. >> sitting here listening to the

conversation, and i was there and i will admit now with hindsight that running this thing off of the bending the cost curve thing was very ineffective, and it doesn't resonate with people. it happens to be critically and economically true. >> yes, and important. >> we spend so much money to get worst out comes and cover -- >> why wasn't a more professorially case been made? >> he got it passed. >> in a highly diluted fashion. >> he would come in fits and starts. i remember he came to congress after the summer, and he invoked -- >> it was medicare for all, all the way. >> he spoke to the country in human terms. but you had to do that day in

and out. >> well, maybe, we should pay tribute to what you accomplished, jared, and the history shows the 60th anniversary of nhs, once you get this stuff in place then it's almost impossible to roll back. so maybe we are under rating -- >> we all thought -- i will say this. >> look at the republican -- >> i think actually, if president obama is not re-elected -- >> you will see a roll back. >> we decent know if ton't know affordable care act will survive. the act is so poorly understood. we will zoom in on wisconsin, where wisconsin democrats say in the first 12 days of collecting signatures for their position to recall republican governor, scott walker, they got more than 300,000 signatures, more than

half of what they needed to force a recall vote. they have until january 17th, to get the remaining 240,000 plus. walker will be the third governor in u.s. history to be recalled, and there's lots of reasons wisconsin voters are lining up to call the petitions, the new voter i dichd law, and budget cuts, and they lost almost 10,000 jobs last month. joining us is with the firefighters union. >> thank you for having me. >> you have been surprised. is this what you thought it would be to marshal the grassroots to get the energy to get this many signatures this past? >> i have been pleasantly surprised. in 12 days to get over 300,000 signatures is great.

it shows people are fired up and we have a fierce urgency to take back our state and government in wisconsin, and people are waiting to do that and have been waiting to do this since february of this year, and people are fired up and we will keep going. i think we are going to get the 540,000 signatures that we need. >> i think what we need is there was a ground swell that happened in the occupation in the capital, and i am using occupy retroactively. and what we paid close attention on the network n. opposition of the bill, that bill was passed, and it's been put into effect, and i also -- we looked at the approval ratings of the governor yesterday and i was surprised to see they held steady around 49% and 50%, and do you think this is a place where there's an intensity of opposition to and among the same people, or do you think you are marshaling the

independent voters in the middle making the case that as somebody part of the firefighters union has a unique stature in the imagination of the public? >> well, fire and police were thrown in into the collective bargaining bill in other states, and if you go back to january, we were told our state is broke and we need shared sacrifice, and we have a $3.6 deficit over the next two years. and we saw tax cuts to corporations, and $3.6 billion over the next ten years will be in massive tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy in our state. in february, we have a budget repair bill and he takes away collective bargaining rights in unions, and then in june we had 30% cut from tech colleges, and cuts from education, and then voter i dichlt, and a child

labor law weakened and money taken away from planned parent hood, so it's more than a union and collective bargaining fight, and it's about labor, and the people are fired up and our governor has a huge disconnect with the citizens of our state. it's unfortunate. >> mr. mitchell, i wanted to ask you, i have read our correspondent is john nickles, and he posted yesterday what you are seeing in the recall effort is not just what you said, but you are seeing support from the recall from rural communities and small towns and independents and conservatives, and can you tell us what that means with the overreach from the governor? >> what you hear from the governor, we have the city of madison, milwaukee, and he feels we have a liberal base there

going against him. i have been all over the state. i can tell you, i am loud and clear like john said, our entire state is galvanized and mobilized to get it back. you have seen a wisconsin up rising. i don't think we should have ever been asleep. me and the governor went to the same high school. >> really? >> we took different classes, though. >> i was about to get into high school history, there. >> well, he is 10-years-older than me, so we didn't go together. and everybody is signing the recall petitions, and it's in small rural communities, small areas in the state that are really fired up. >> i will ask you to stick around. we will talk more about the fight in wisconsin when we come back. o0 c1 2 o0 hey guys, what can i get for you?

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let me ask you about some of the specific provisions in your proposal to strip collective bargaining rights. first, your proposal would require unions to hold annual votes to continue representing their own members. can you please explain to me and members of this committee how much money this provision saves for your state budget? >> if you are going to put in place a change like that, we wanted to make sure we protected the workers of our state to have a right to know what kind of value, and the same reason we gave workers the right to choose whether or not they wanted to be part of a union -- >> answer the question. how much money does it save? >> it doesn't save any. i will answer your question -- >> it had no effect on the state

budget. >> scott walker admitting that his plan to gut collective bargaining would not save money. the governor and outside groups are pushing back hard against the recall effort. the argument is that they should -- the state shouldn't be wasting its time and money on the recall effort. what is your response to that argument? >> i say it's cauockamamie propaganda. i was there when he he was questioned about the money. as you stated, we lost almost 10,000 jobs in the last month. but what came out of the job session? there were five bills. the concealed carry, bringing guns into the capitol, and defining what a bicycle is, and our deer hunting license being

able to hunt a buck, i don't know what any of this has to do with job creation. a woman's right to choose and teaching abstinence in schools is what came out. our governor has a huge disconnect of what is happening in our current state. we talked about shared sacrifice. right now it seems like we sacrifice and they share the wealth. >> scott walker has been going around talking about what a foolish idea recalls are, and what an idiotic quest it is. and one said the folks angry about it started a recall and they were told they needed to collect 73,000 signatures in 60 days, and hundreds did something, stood up and took it back, so he was for recalls

before he took office. >> to what extent do you think it's a national issue? do you feel like you are a pons in a proxy war? >> well, we were known for green bay packers and cheese, and now we know the nation is watching. they watched in ohio. we started here, and now they passed the baton basically to wisconsin. we are being watched by the nation. and the occupy movement is contrinted to this up rising. people are saying they are sick of living in a place where the 1% wealthy get everything handed to them. feels like we are not living in the united states of america, but the united corporations of america.

people are sick and tired of it. >> how did you get people to stand up in this particular case f. this is going to be a model for future up risings? it's easy for people to be cynical and sit on the sofas, but somehow you created something real? was that a chance, was there something that you did? with a did you do? >> well, actually governor walker did it. we didn't have to do much. the only response was for us to go to the capital. that's the only way we will be heard. we have a governor that can take a phone call from one of the coke brothers, but won't meet with his own constituents. >> how come that didn't stay some random news story, though. >> i want to talk about the "we" in the sentences. the "we" there is in large part the union. i would like to hear your comment on how important that union itself has been in giving

rise to this political dynamic that is really taking over the nation. so in a sense when you are fighting for collective bargaining, and you are fighting for a progressive politic that we have not seen in the nation since unions have been on the run, do you agree with that? >> i totally do. and unions are the stop gap for the middle class. the unions are why we have the best middle class right now in the united states. we have the best middle class in the world in our united states of america. and one problem we have had in our state, and why we are talking about issues now, we had 39.6% of our union members in the state vote for walker. we have to make sure we are educating our members opposed to servicing them, and we have to galvanize the new members and educate them, opposed to just servicing them and dealing with them that way. it's not just a union fight, and it started here but we will make sure it ends here as well. >> i have a feeling we will be

hearing more from mr. mitchell in the years and months to come. thank you. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. the u.s. economy is showing signs of life, but is europe going to screw it all up? that's next. congratulations. congratulations. congratulations. today, the city of charlotte can use verizon technology to inspire businesses to conserve energy and monitor costs. making communities greener... congratulations. ... and buildings as valuable to the bottom line... whoa ! ... as the people inside them. congratulations. because when you add verizon to your company, you don't just add, you multiply. ♪ discover something new... verizon. combines great odor protection with a lavender scent. amazing microcapsules absorb and neutralize odor releasing scent anytime you need it. all day long. secret scent expressions deodorant/antiperspirant. also in body splashes.

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get a great deal on a new subaru and $250 goes to your choice of 5 charities. with your help, we can reach $20 million dollars by the end of this, our fourth year. so the news of the week, we have some pretty good unemployment numbers on friday, and unemployed dropped to 8.6%, and there was talk about it being because people dropped out of the labor force, and the labor force has grown, which is a good sign. it was not great news, but it was good news. at least it was good news compared to what is going on in europe, and the world six major central banks agreed to provide cheap u.s. dollar loans for

troubled european banks. this gets technical. we will make money to insure the losses of the banks so we don't have a disorderly run on the banks. and it has a look of 2008 when it was going on in the u.s. it's scary in that way. and the last best chance to keep the european debt crisis to turn into a global contatoio. you get the issues really important and hard to explain. what do you do? most of the u.s. media has not done that much on it, but it's hard to explain. here is how i think about it. there's a famous experiment called the prisoners dilemma, and it's about cooperation and two people rob a bank and they have the face masks on and the cops pick them up and there's no

witnesses, and the cops have the tip and they put them in separate interrogation rooms, and they say if you snitch on your partner, you will get a few months and he will get ten years. if one of them snitches and the other doesn't, they get away with a few months, and if they both snitch, they are both screwed, they both get the maximum amount. but if they don't both snitch, if they seem at the first order to be the unselfish thing, they get the best result out of it. what we are seeing in europe, and what we are seeing in global climate change is a dilemma in order for the system to be saved, everybody has to not snitch, and every player has to do the thing that in the immediate doesn't seem -- it seems the unselfish thing, but is the only way everybody will see themselves. it seems like are we going toeb able to make it happen, where you have to get all the 18 countries -- that's the number -- >> it's 17.

>> 17 countries in the euro to do this. can we make this work? >> i think that's a very good explanation. i would simplify it. it's not as complicated as 17 countries, but it's essentially about germany. what complicated the situation so much was starting in 2008, in some ways the germans created this crisis. in 2008, it was a global rises. in europe, the germans insisted that there be national solutions to the banking crisis. so that was the beginning of saying this is a problem of each country. it's not a collective problem. the reason that i am cautionly optimistic about europe is that i think at the beginning of the fall, they had a change of heart and a lot of people close to the german government that talked to her, they report that she

changed. what i think has happened is she realized, although it's painful for the germans who feel they are full of economic virtue, and yet these hard-working germans are going to have to bail out the sun-loving mediterraneans, and it was painful and hard because she worried she doesn't have the public's support. she understood that if we don't bail these guys out, there is a chance the euro collapses and economists were saying, and are saying now, if that happens, and i don't think you can rule it out, you have a 25-40% collapse of gdp in europe. >> that's great depression level. >> right. i think she gets that. why is that so essential? at the end of the day, this is

an artificial crisis. >> yeah, and they are comparing it to the debt ceiling. >> countries don't have to default on the debt. they can just print money to pay it off. >> but they don't control the money supply. >> the central germans and the ecb say we are going to bail everybody out by printing money, and we are prepared to do that, and the head of the european central bank, he makes very important comments last week suggesting he was moving towards that, as soon as the ebc says we will dupe, it's over. >> you think they will move and there will be more monetary policies, or will there be a quid pro quo to do it in the short term -- >> right, right, and that's already happening. >> to me that's not a resolution. itself defeating. >> chris's view is definitely

the most optimistic that i have heard, and i think you are right and think you make a strong case. i am pessimistic, because where we ended up with the cost of it going south, as to southern europe, are so high. and so that would lead you to argue that steps will be taken. the problem is that every step along the way, this has been a pure lucy with the football. they come up with good ideas and there's a good plan, and the currency swap thing is not that big of a deal, it's not purchasing the debt which has to happen. it was the prime minister of luxenburg said it right. he said we know what we have to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected once we do it. you have to understand -- >> that's right. >> it's even worse than here in how much the public hates the bailouts. >> of course they hate the

bailout -- >> you need leadership and also a central bank. >> and you wrote about how you have a solvable economic crisis, which is a political crisis. part of it is the original sin, how the euro was created, but you do have a troubling political situation in europe today where you have the rise of the technocrats. people are not accountable -- >> yeah, in greece and italy -- >> the representation of the banks, and that will increase because the austerity politics, and even if they work it out, the austerity of politics will continue to drive people to the streets and make it difficult to govern. >> and i will have you make an argument right after this break. sorry. >> okay. for the first time ever... a toothpaste. crest 3d white. if beauty editors notice, who else will?

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we get back in the discussion. you wanted to defend the technocrat taking control in italy or greece? >> well, to debunk the argument i am hearing on lot on the american left and on the european left, the real tragedy and danger is the rise of technocrats and end of democracy, and that's a quite likely outcome. but in terms of the bigger threat, you know, the best is the enemy of the good way of looking at things, i do think the possibility of economic -- maybe apocalypse is too strong, but real catastrophe, the stuff that was avoided, thank you, jared, in 2008 and 2009, that that's still a possibility in europe, and it could be worse, the collapse of the currency. i think it's a little bit, you

know, quibling -- >> why austerity? i can see a european central bank coming in with merkel at the center of it, and the expandtial and monetary fiscal policies, because if you do austerity -- >> i am opposed to it personally, and i think the germans are acting against their self sbrks but if that's the price they demand the europeans will have to say we have to do it. >> i agree with both of you. the sa austerity thing is bad economics -- >> i want to make a broader point. it does seem to me, to zoom out to 30,000 feet, we have insufficient corrupt governance in the u.s. and european continent, and that leads to massive crisis of capital which then produce conditions of emergency and then undermined democratic accountability. it's locked in a circle, and we

find ourselves in the positions, and we say it's so bad that we have to do x, y, and z. >> in europe now, it's like having a house burn down and the arsonists sending a bill for services rendered. >> well, merkel did impose a much tougher hair cut on the banks -- >> hair cut is the term that we use to refer to the loss that the bondholder takes. for every dollar you are getting paid 50 cents -- >> that was possible for her, because it was not just german banks. how do you negotiate with bankers that don't vote in your own country? turns out, it's easier to give them a hard time. >> chris, you write a lot about history. the history of the euro and the crisis in this country is about

governments, and -- >> italy right now has a primary surplus. >> that what is being ignored is what contributed to this, and not understanding that, not coming out with solutions. >> where do we think those countries will be in five years? is there really nothing to be said about the financial cultures, and i don't believe you addressed that particular part. you were talking about what the countries may have done, and your implication was the cultural argument was wrong, and in terms of the financial arguments of the countries, they are culpable. what about not next year, but five years from now, what should they be doing differently, if we don't want the austerity plans -- >> here is the reason the cultural argument is incomplete, and certainly in greece, i don't think there's anybody defending

the fiscal politics of greece to this point. but what the cultural argument misses is germany was eventually the china of europe, and the germans benefitted big time from the euro because it allowed them to have the benefit of essentially the weakness of the southern european economies, and if you still have the deutsch mark, that would be much, much tougher than them. they paid a price, and you didn't have the problems in southern europe prior to the europe, and that was because every time they got into trouble, they increased the currency, and they understand to some extent they exported -- >> they built their strength on the exported economy -- >> yeah, the global financial imbalance that americans worry about themselves viz avae,

china, and the southern europeans are the united states -- >> and many don't for americans. and this graph shows the connection between the european france, and the u.s. gdp. it's hard to imagine that we don't take a massive hit. the reason it matters so much here at home, and the fate of the re-election of barack obama lies in the hands of merkel. i want to talk about what you should know for the news week ahead coming up next. [ drew ] what's the latest in eye couture?

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just a second, what you should know for the week ahead, but right now it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex

witt." >> let's go to polls, and it tells a dramatic story of how the gop presidential race may be changing especially when the contenders go head to head with president obama. and then fans at one university rush the field after a big win, and rushing it left more than won dozen people hospitalized. this is like something out of the novel "the da vinci code." we will show you what the experts are examining, and i think it's legit. there's a growing newt gingrich, and bill clinton lovefest, and we will get to that, too, coming up. >> my sense is mona lisa wants to preserve the euro. what should you know for the week coming up? the private sector added jobs, and any positive trends will be cut short if the european central banks doesn't act

decisively. according to a report, wall street lobbyist are going the extra mile in raising money and working the phones to make sure scott brown debeats elizabeth warren. warren has become public enemy number one, and because of warren's association with an occupy wall street message, she is now polling ahead of scott brown. and you should know that while evangelical christians are no longer receiving the media attention they got in the bush years, they remain the biggest block of the gop base. you should know that wisconsin voters have over $300,000 of the 540,000 signatures needed for the recall of governor scott walker, and the wisconsin activist have done a good job.

as american airlines goes into the first week since declaring bankruptcy, you should know they will be doing it without their ceo who resigned with no severance, rather than over see a bankruptcy process that is specifically designed to tear up pension and compensation contracts with the unions. you should know his name, because ceos like him are rare. and another name, is the visionary controversial commission of new york's department of transportation who worked hard to make the city more bike frenedly. this one says, a sudden car door, cyclists, fractured narrative. you should know approximately 700 cyclists and 4,000 pedestrians are killed every year by cars. if you are in the driver's seat you should know you need to share the road. herman cain suspended his campaign for president, and if you are running the website for any candidate for president,

shoe know that using stock photos to stand in for tulsa porters will not go unnoticed by the internet. herman cain's defunct campaign learned this when they used this picture of woman with thumbs up. you should also know that containing stock photos for any imaginable scenario. in addition to women giving thumbs up, you can also find stock photos for senior citizens eating bagels or a stressed out lawyer, or santa in a swimming pool. if we did not have four hours of live programming to produce, we could put obscure searches into livestock photo, and laughing at the results. we will be back right after

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♪ our guests are back to tell us what we should know as the news unfolds this week. start with gerald bernstein. what's your people know? >> i think people should know that the unemployment insurance extensions and the payroll tax cut are in danger of leaving this economy and that is a very bad thing. these are policies that have been in place in 2011 and if congress doesn't extend them, they're going to leave the system. now, just keeping a fiscal policy like this, that's helping workers in the system doesn't give you any more of a boost because it's already there. it keeps your foot where it is on the accelerator. the last thing we need is to take it off. we need to put the foot down harder. watch this week. i hear whispering that there's a bipartisan deal in the making. but we'll have to see. they haven't gotten close. >> this is really important. we talked about the payroll tax

cut yesterday. these are just the most basic effective obvious means of keeping the economy from sinking back into real intense -- >> for these to expire at this point in our economy -- >> disgraceful, obscene. >> it's effectively a tax hike. that's what you have to remember. >> so damaging. katrina -- >> in the beliefs that we haven't seen much biplaneship in washington in the last year, i would bring people's attention to take back the capitol. running through the week, labor, community activists, people of faith, people from the occupy movement, from the 99% movement coming to d.c. to talk about trying to push through these basic common sense, unemployment extension payroll tax holiday, but also to shine a light on the dysfunction of a washington, d.c., due to corporate intans gents, corporate lobbyists and

the cowardess for failing to stand up for common sense humane reforms. it will go on for a week but it's part of the 99% movement. moving to occupy statehouses, occupy banks, be with people as they're evicted from their homes. be where injustice is. >> the big question i have, the key political question on this with respect to pushing congress to pass this, at a certain point you wonder whether republican house members in swing districts and there are a lot of republican house members of the house in districts that obama won in 2008. >> that's right. >> whether they are going to have to answer for the economy as well. i think there's a political calculation barack obama's economy and if things go south, it hurts him. but sitting members of congress will go back to districts and you wonder if that calculation, they're going to have to answer that. so far, that hasn't manifested itself in the voting behavior of members of congress, but that's a key question. >> what should folks know? >> my need to know was going to be europe. but i think we covered that.

there are important meetings next week. watch them carefully. europe could not only kill itself. it could wreck the world economy, including the u.s. my fresh one would be, watch the regulators and the judges and there was a guy who is becoming my personal hero, the really important ruling in the week that passed, wuj judge rakoff who said he would not accept a deal that the s.e.c. did with citi. what matters if you want to rein in wall street and finance, it's not just the laws, it's how the regulators enforce them. >> yes. >> if we see more judges like judge rakoff actually say i want you to guys to really be the cops on the beat, america changes. >> that really resonated with people too. >> john mcwarner, briefly, what should folks know? >> i think as we get ever closer to mitt romney being the republican nominee, president

obama has to think about his message. something he could do is stop pursuing the war on drugs as if he were richard nixon. every week there's more and more police officers out against the war on drugs. if you want to counteract the economy about how he's done, i think that image that -- i think that issue would sway people on the left and many of the swing voters to be elected. jared bernstein, katrina, my boss at the nation magazine. my favorite magazine that you should be reading and subscribing to. chris i can't freeman. john mcwhorter of the university and the root.com. you guys were great. thank you for joining us. we'll be back next saturday. our guests include the head of the naacp on saturday. they will march on rally on the right to vote. important discussion. i hope you join us. you can follow us on twitter at

up with chris. up next is alex witt. we'll see you next week here on "up." capital one's new cash rewards card gives you a 50 percent annual bonus. so you earn 50 percent more cash. if you're not satisfied with 50% more cash, send it back! i'll be right here, waiting for it. who wouldn't want more cash? [ insects chirping ] i'll take it. i'll make it rain up in here. [ male announcer ] the new capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? sorry i'll clean this up. shouldn't have made it rain. ♪ but the fire is so delightful ♪ nothing melts away the cold like a hot, delicious bowl of chicken noodle soup from campbell's. ♪ let it snow, let it snow

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