e things you're already buying. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. from new york, i am chris hayes. this is the sunday edition of "up." and there's a deal that could pave the way of tougher enforcement of greenhouse gas emissions if the biggest polluters agree to it. the attacks newt gingrich faced from his rivals virtually made it official. we will have highlights in a moment, but joining me today we have the columnist for "the daley," and a contributor to

"the times" magazine, and my great pleasure to welcome the ceo of the advocacy group, green for all, and now a columnist at the "natural review," glad to have you all here. it was held at the yun university in iowa. i tweeted earlier in the week that it sort of felt all week like the entire political press was standing in a school yard around newt gingrich and romney saying fight, fight, fight. romney put out an ad critical of newt gingrich, and it was a highly anticipated conflict that was heading into this debate. the moment that stood out for me was the one where this exchange was most intense, where mitt

romney had the chance to take a shot at newt gingrich, and after he does newt gingrich fires back a quote with a big round of applause followed by boos. >> places we disagree? well, a lunar colony that would mine minerals from the moon. i am not in favor of spending that kind of money to do that. i he said he would like to eliminate in some cases the child labor laws so kids could clean schools and i don't agree with that idea, and the plan on capital gains at the highest of income is different than mine, and i would eliminate those for people in middle income, and so we have differences of ideas. and the biggest difference is the background and i know how the economy works, and america

needs to have confidence the person they are electing needs to know how to create jobs for the middle class. >> your response? >> just a second. he had for allegations, do i get four responses? >> take your time. >> the only reason you didn't become a career politician is because you lost to teddy kennedy in 1994. >> z snap. it was a good response. and it was a response that one of our guests made here at our table. >> i thought romney was effective. this is something that has worked for gingrich, the idea that i had a redemption narrative. and he said, yeah, shoe look at our personal lives and what have you. the problem is both of these

guys are so weird, mitt romney has a very compelling story that he just can't tell. for example, and -- >> what do you mean by that? >> he was identifying all the differences. in 1996, he was not running for everything, and he was a defeated senate candidate. he spent his own money to attack steve forbes' flat tax, and he bought newspaper ads, and then he was saying, i don't want to build a lunar colony, but i want a capital gains tax cuts for middle class, and it's just these basic common sense positions that might resonate with a more moderate general electorate, but for whatever reason it's not working now. >> rebecca? >> yeah, he did have a good response. i agree the football response was very good, but nobody will remember that because it's not

executed smoothly. and opening with the words lunar colony, i had a pillow over my head, and please don't say the word colony again. >> i thought it was funny, because it was the idea that nut is a weirdo. >> he could have hit him harder on the child labor stuff. that's something that is getting lost in the debate. i did not hear anybody talking about what newt said when he talked about it and trying to soften it about working in the offices, and instead -- i mean, what he is saying there is a huge and dangerous and aggressive dog whistle. >> what is a dog whistle for? what do you mean by that? >> the suggestion that it's poor

children, poor communities no longer understand work. poor children are not taught to work. he had a sentence where he says it's something middle class children did all the time, and this -- what he is suggesting about class difference and about what happens in poor communities, and poor african-american communities, what he is suggesting is incredibly -- >> it's that they are lazy. that's the subtext. >> yeah, there is no culture of working and that culture exists in middle class. >> well, i think that it also resinates with the theme that newt gingrich has been using, and he calls this president numerous times the food stamp president, and i will be the paycheck president, and there seems to me, at least, and maybe i am being over sensitive, and

there's nasty subracial subtax. >> i thought last night looked like a "saturday night live" skit. one said to be able to attack people to say kids are colored, but -- >> he didn't say that at least. >> no, who is most likely to be poor in this country? >> well, i mean, certainly disproportionately, i think there are many poor nonhispanic white kids and quite a few living in cities as well, and the idea of the norms of worklessness, it was a compelling idea that actually there are different norms for middle class kids in terms of work, and it's also which kinds of work are available to people? with regard to food stamps, and

some have pointed out the idea that food stamps have markedly increased because it has been increasing with other programs. it has alarmed many people for a good reason, you have a lot of people being included in the category. >> that's not what this is about. let's not do that. >> when you actually say that kids of color -- which you said disproportionately, nonhispanic, that's what you said, when you say first they are to blame to be poor because they have -- and then you say what we should do is take away the middle class jobs in cities and have kids take those jobs because that's the way to move them out of poverty -- >> i think that's what you heard, but i don't think that's what newt gingrich intended to

say. we need to be mindful of what we are projecting on -- >> when you say what you heard and what he intended to say, some may think that's the same thing. >> we will come back. great prices. i just wish you could guarantee me they won't be beat. oh, actually... then i'd be like, you rule! and my kids would be like, you rule! oh, load up the sleigh; this is going to be a great christmas. [ male announcer ] more christmas for your money,

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this nation was founded on the principle of being on the merit side. that's what is going on today. i understand a merit-based society, i believe in the principles that made america the greatest nation on earth. >> that's mitt romney speaking last night at the gop debate. i wanted to pulp clip because it related to the discussion we were having here with the sort

of vision that was colessing in the republican field about earning your way up. i thought this was an interesti interesti interesting saw sing k correlation. there's the very talented kau loss asus who helped lift the entire nation. romney doesn't claim to be -- does that put a button on what the social progress or mobility is? >> this is such a confusing field in a sense that you have like the anti-t.a.r.p. camp, and then the supporters on the other side. i thought michele bachmann last night was really effective in her line of attack on newt gingrich saying that he occupies

the rodeo drive of washington. >> yes, that was a good line. i thought what was so interesting is the chief dynamics of the debate was perry, bachmann and santorum giving the identical critique of gingrich and romney, and both as establishment crony capitalists, and that's what bachmann said, gingrich and romney, they both supported the mandate and part of the complex of, you know, of betrayal. >> and bachmann had the effective portion was when she was calling them newt romney, newt romney, and i thought it was a rhetorical connection. >> his ego is so massive, and he projects so far forward, the bullets hit it and fall to the

ground. it's like the scene in "star wars," these are not the droids you are looking for. gingrich has this force. he walked into arguments about his previous idealogical flip flops. >> he has weathered so much that he is somewhat bullet proof. the chin ks in mitt romney's armor started to show last night when he had not been subject to that level of back and forthwith newt gingrich. >> the iconic moment, which the dnc is very happy to talk about, is a very strange moment in which mitt romney had an exchange with rick perry about his previous support of the mandate that was part of the massachusetts health bill that was passed and romney decided to offer a bet to rick perry as to

whether or not he was right or not. >> i read your first book and it said in there that your mandate in massachusetts, which should be the model for the country, and i know it came out of the reprint of the book, but i am saying, you were for individual mandates, my friend. >> you know, you have raised that before, rick, and -- >> it was true then, and it's true now. >> rick, i will tell you what, $10,000 bet? >> i am not in the betting business, but -- i will show you the book. >> i have got the book. >> oh, yes, please -- >> he is notorious froogle. it's not a bet that every man can make, but he knew he was right and he didn't have to worry about losing the $10,000. >> let me say -- just to

adjudicate the dispute, our producer and staff was going through the text of the original print, and he does not say the mandate is, but the church could be a model. and romney's argument is it's possible they could find different ways. but the way it came across was pretty awful. >> and young and want to make a bet? in addition to the amount of money, you know, who -- in addition to the fact you are saying 10,000 bucks, and it was reminding me of the previous debate, where he said for god's sakes, i am running for president. >> my take a different. one of the real difficulties of the field is that the republican

electorate doesn't look anything like this. a large number of non-college educated republicans -- well, large numbers of republican voters are related to those that have seen their circumstances deteriorate remarkably. you know, gingrich is even less relatable in a way, but gingrich for whatever reason managed to project the affect of a loveable uncle, and romney is a dudley do right figure. >> and the dnc has a twitter

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whoever wins the democratic nomination will hope to win the election. joining us now at the table, bob casey, from the great state of pennsylvania, and who like obama is up for re-election in 2012. my first question since we have been talking about the debate, do you have any impressions

about the debate, play pundit for a second, what your sense of the field is or anything strike you? >> i did not see last night's debate, but it seems like every time they do a debate, there's a new internal controversy. i will let them keep debating and i will just watch. >> i think that's quite smart. do you think since you are up for re-election in 2012, what do you see of what will be the defining issue for you and your re-election campaign, and how much do you feel that you own the economy as the president does? >> any incumbent running this year or next year will be confronted with the reality of the economy. people say to me two basic things. they say do something about

that. put in place job creation strategies or measures that will kick start the economy, and also do it in a bipartisan way. both are difficult. >> but those are mutually exclusive. that seems like the problem. they want something done, and in a bipartisan way, and those things are exclusive, you cannot do things and have them be bipartisan. >> sometimes deadlines help. >> and this year, folks will face a tax increase if we don't face the payroll tax cut of some dimension, that helps enormously to force people to work together. and it's an economy where people are still struggling. >> talk me through what the next line of the conversation is. if you and i are outside the bingo hall and somebody says i want you to do something about the economy, and why do we have

so many out of work. what do you say? >> we passed the recovery act. and then it's -- is it hard to make those arguments? >> well, i think a lot of people give you credit, a lot of credit, taxpayers who will be voting in 2012 give you a lot of credit if you are seen as working on the basic issue of jobs and if you are seen as prying to bring people together. it's very difficult. it's not the thing where you can point to a list of bills where you can make people feel better. but it's going to take a while to fully recover, if we are even recovering at a rate of 150,000 private sector jobs. we have to figure out a way to get that number to 200 or 250. by the way, where we were back in february or march and april of last year. >> you mentioned the payroll tax cut, and that's the big issue

washington is facing along with unemployment insurance. the president is pushing to deepen the payroll tax cut and extend, and the republicans balked at first and then realized they were backed into a corner because how could they not be for a tax cut, and then disagreement of how to pay for the tax cut, and that's what is on the table. what is your proposal. i know you have come forward with a compromise. explain that to us. >> basically, it's two. first, the bill had a pay for that was a surtax on incomes above a million, they didn't like that. they tried to compromise. and then brought it to 1.9%, and they still rejected it there. we were changing our proposal to try and reach out and compromise, and they put forth the same proposal two weeks in a row. the first week it got 20 votes and the second week it sky rock

ye it's reasonable to say that a small number of americans will help us with a tax cut for 160 million americans, it doesn't make a lot of sense. >> if the idea is to produce stimulus for the economy, right? to put money in peoples' pockets, and the number one thing for not hiring is we don't have the customers or demand, and why are we debating paying for the tax cut at all? isn't the point of stimulus to inject more money into the private sector economy byr running -- the stimulus tax cut, the problem is how to pay for it? >> that's part of the problem

that we have. the democrat has the party that is more add herant to paying for it. what i could not understand when i put forth the original bill, we cut the payroll tax in half for employees and in half for employers, and we had a tax credit for employers. republicans for whatever reason did not like cutting the payroll tax in half for businesses, and i don't know why, but we're back to the question of whether we are going to increase -- or whether we are going to keep in place the tax cut just for employees. i would prefer cutting it in half to 3-1, which is in the pockets of the american's take home pay, $1,500. >> and rick santorum, he had a comment last night in the debate about the payroll tax cut. i will play that for you and get your reaction after this break.

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i believe speaker gingrich is for extending the pay tax cut and so -- what is your position on this? >> is there a social security trust fund or not? is the social security system going to be funded by payroll taxes or not? and they talk about how the government doesn't care about the social security, and he is the one defunding the social security system? >> he was defeated at the polls last time around by the guest that i have here, senator casey. what is fascinating about the argument about the payroll tax cut, the first place i saw that argument is on the left, when the recovery act was passed. the payroll tax cut, there are concerns about reducing the money to the social security trust fund. what is your argument on this?

>> there have been concerns raised. these are important concerns on the left and the right. the key thing is they say this proposal, like the one in 2010, would be uneffective. in other words, the trust fund, i would say, would be unaffected by the enactment of this. >> just to be clear, the money is being reimbursed, isn't that the case? >> it's appropriated for that purpose. and even democrats have wanted to hear this to make sure, this is temporariy. as of next year, it will be a whole new chapter when it comes to this, even though i know in 2010, we put in place the break in 2010 on the tax cut that jump-started the economy was good, and -- >> i am glad you said it was temporarily. the biggest thing to me is it's

fun to be on the side of tax cuts politically, because you have the upper hand in the argument and the president is relishing that and the republicans are on the defensive, but how it's possible to conceive a time in which you are on the other side, if you are running in 2014, senator casey, and you are not, you are running in 2012, it would be hard to say i want it to expire and want taxes to go up. it's difficult for me to consep chulize -- >> the predicate is getting growth. if you are getting the kind of employment growth like february and march of last year, the average growth was 240. that's substantial from where we were prior to that. if we get that growth and the economy is growing, i think there will probably be different proposals about how to wind it

down. >> you this i-it's possible under conditions of better economic growth that is not going to be so toxic to sort of say we need to raise the payroll tax cut? >> yes, there are few steps congress can take that will kick start the jump-start that a tax cut will. >> and as somebody who cares about the environment and believes keystone doesn't create the jobs that it does, and why do you think -- >> keystone pipeline is a pipeline that brings tar sands, and it's opposed by the republican governor of nebraska, and that extraction is more carbon intensive. the state department had to evaluate whether there is a finding of national interest, and they said they will not make the determination until 2013. that's the quick recap.

>> republicans are adding it, and it has -- >> yeah, john boehner has been floating that. what is your response? >> well, it's difficult to bring in an issue that is completely unrelated to cause trouble. that proposal that house republicans put forth that has the pipeline issue in it, it won't pass. so it's really an exercise which is kind of what they did in the senate, when they proposed the exact same legislation, they got 20 votes. we are going to be back at this, i think, several more times. >> you think keystone is a nonstarter? >> how do you feel keystone as a separate issue -- >> it's not something that directly affects pennsylvania, but we're looking at it. right now you don't have squarely before the united states senate a vote on that, so

it's going to be a while i think before you have a vote that is singerly focused on that issue. >> why do you think they are bringing keystone into it. why are they playing the game this way. why are they making keystone the added ingredient? >> i guess to make it -- to cause more confusion, and maybe to slow down legislation? but we have to get beyond this. they have to get the payroll tax cut in place before the end of the year, or taxes are going to go up almost 1,000 bucks per head. >> you brought with you the letter from the social security taxuary. more on the debate last night, climate change is real and the like after this.

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last week, every republican presidential candidate was on the record doubting the science that shows that fossil fuels is helping the client. last tuesday, speaking at the heritage foundation, he seemed to start walking that back. >> i don't know, i am not a scientist or physicist. and it's in terms of a better description or explanation, but there's not enough information to formulate policies in terms of addressing it overall. >> the jury is still out on science.

this, to me, seemed like huntsman, he insisted he was not flip-flopping, but in the context of the republican field as a whole, it makes me think he is walking it back if for no other reason than the cover story in the journal, and it grows to the reductants of the republicans walk it forward, and mitt romney looked into how climate change affected the state, and newt gingrich famously sat on the couch with nancy pelosi, and john mccain in his 2008 campaign platform had a climate change plank in it, and now it has been completely, completely, almost unanimously rejected by the republicans. why is this -- why have we seen this movement in the direction? >> it's part of a larger global

shift. there's 18% in the world that has no access to electricity. and there still would have been a global carbon emissions because of the intensity in china and india and etc., and the -- >> why is -- >> well, there's a political dynamic here. i think it's entirely reasonable to look at a different set of issues, but there's issues, and there's attitudes towards claims advanced by science and the idea that we must present a consensus even when they are a variety of questions at the edges of an issue, and that's a set of issues that is very complicated to understand. and some people may say there might be questions and issues, and let's bracket those

questions because we need a simple, clear message to advance for the public. >> well, let me just say this. there's two interesting questions. and you can say, and there are conservatives, jim mansy who i know you are a great admirer of, and they can say we have global warming because of increased emissions and then make conservative arguments about what the long-term risks are, but that's not what we are seeing. >> there has been a shift in the conversation away from climate change not just in the united states, but throughout the developed world and the industrialized world as well. >> and money is pouring into politics, and it's a united decision and it's poor into the republican politics. that's what is happening, right? that's why the party position is changing. >> it long has been true before. >> no, no, no. >> the scale of the money has gotten much bigger, and the

americans for prosperity bragged recently that they were behind -- well, no, it could be disingenuous, and everybody likes to say they are responsible for everything -- >> there's money on both sides of the debate. >> the reason we are having a debate on a payroll tax about keystone, is because the money coming in is from the fossil fuel industry. and we shouldn't pretend that they have more jobs. there's no question when we look at the scientists, and jon huntsman had a phenomenal look on climate change and now he is saying i don't know if there's enough information to create policy. this is a man that less than a couple months ago said i believe the scientists and in global warming, and what is alurming we have a a group of people that to win an election, they have to pretend that science doesn't

exist. >> i don't think he was pretending science don't exist, he was saying we need to have something more firm before i put something up on my platform, and he was thumbing his nose, and we need people where he needs their vote and support -- >> that's exactly the point that i find disturbing. climate change has become -- >> it always was, chris. >> no, it wasn't, always. >> then why the unanimity on the other side? >> well, i think somebody else could have gotten away with saying that and it would not have hurt as deeply as it did with huntsman, because he is regarded of having an attitude of being disconnected. >> well, that's exactly the point, only he could -- the thumbing of the nose, the

embedded subtext of the tweet -- >> well, there are plenty of people who stand up -- >> sorry to interrupt you, but in ohio half of the state's electricity is jen raid from coal fire plants. there would be a lot of people who want to use carbon intensive energy in the country -- >> yes, that's why it's hard to get policy. >> i don't think it's the fact that there's money -- certainly, we should look at the referendum in california, money coming from both sides, and -- >> it's not equal money, though. >> in that case there was quite a lot of money -- >> it's 10 to 1. >> you are looking at a situation where the governor of nebraska, he was concerned about the -- there are different concerns, but it's on both sides. if you look at natural gas policy in the 1970s, it changed markedly, so people could not access it because of controls,

and the political dynamic in which democratic senator robert bird -- >> it's a complicated story. there's all sorts of embedded incumbent interests that defend the status quo. if that is to be overcome, you have to produce a very difficult social consensus that we have to stall the possible disaster, not just for us at home. >> achieving that, i think -- >> i think the needs of climate change, it's fairly low in terms of needs -- >> that's why all of our children will grow up on a much warmer planet. ♪ ♪

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i sprung something on my guests, who are now -- it's a real broadcasting professional, two seconds before we come back i tell them about what we're going to do. and some of the biggest candidates, bachmann and santorum, in the bedadebate las night. we keep meaning to cover what is going on in the postal service in this program, and i keep kicking the can down the road, and he is on the sunday talk shows. if you had a question to ask -- what would you ask of whom? >> of the post master general, is it a sensible thing to spend the limited money on advertising

to convince people to not use e-mail. that seems like -- >> are there ads -- >> they are saying, this online stuff is just a crazy fad thing. >> rebecca? >> well, there was a disturbing story about the power of lobbying effort on behalf of for-profit -- there would be new regulations on the for profit college industry. and now that this is being done, it's very much watered down, and there's a disturbing story about

the impact of lobbying on people who are close to the white house, and annetta dunn was one of those people. that's what i would ask her about? >> the educational department floated new rules because there were high default rates, and -- >> yeah, and a lot comes from federal loans, and they were going to institute new reforms, and the industry fought back hard. one of the people they hired to make the case was annetta dunn, and the effort seems to be good at watering down the roles. i think that's a great question. >> i would like to talk to rick perry about the commercial coming out this week about gays serving in the military? i would like to know what he was thinking and why he felt it was appropriate? i would love to have -- >> at this particular moment why

he felt the ad -- just the timing of it. it's like a broad impression of perry wanting to abolish -- >> it's a nice tease to the next hour of this program in which we will be discussing the plan b decision and hillary clinton's speech on the rights and rick perry's ad about them as well. details after this. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] now there's a mileage card that offers special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. thanks. ♪

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well, i am chris hayes. with me is our guests.

there were two moments this week when obama took a position on hot-button issues. and on wednesday, in a surprise move, the obama administration overruled a decision by the scientists of the food and drug administration. the department of health and human services rejected the recommendation to make plan b the morning after pill available to anybody over-the-counter without restriction regardless of age. and kathleen sebelius said the data provided as the studies are not sufficient to supporting making plan 1b available to all girls 16 and younger.

and then the fda said there is adequate reasonable, well supported and science-based evidence that plan about b one-step -- >> it was unprecedented for them to overrule. it's a terrible decision, which i think we will talk more about. president obama followed up on it, because it was officially kathleen's decision, and it was not i didn't have anything to do with it -- >> let me play that comment. this is the brepresident talkin about his daughters in regards to the question. >> i will say this, as the father of two daughters, i think

that it's important for us to make sure that, you know, we apply some common sense various rules when it comes to over-the-counter medicine. >> you loved this, loved this response. i can see -- >> you see it in my eyes. >> you reacted very strongly to it. >> it's a incredibly paternalistic thing to say, to say as the father of two daughters, i know what is best. and it's just -- we need to apply common sense. the idea that as the father and, you know, the protector of the good health and well-being of his two daughters, obama is applying common sense in opposition to the people on the other side of the decision, the idea that the battle that they are fighting, which is to make more forms of contraceptives, a

scientific ally form of contra siptive available to all women, and by his paternity, he his moral authority greater than those scientists on the other side of the issue, and it's condescending, and it takes what is a scientific and perhaps, yes, a political debate and resituates it in this realm that is really offensive. >> i thought it was -- he, rarely, if ever, politicized his daughters. it's a little crass. i think michelle obama and president obama has set a good example of good parents and they are down-to-earth and they seem like a lovely family, but in this case it was so unnecessary,

and grau tudious. it's just so vague what he actually stands for. >> on this specific question, what i think the invoking of the daughters was meant to communicate politically, this is -- we're in very loaded political territory, which is the sexual activity of girls, girls age 12, 13, 14, and 15. when parents imagine their girl having sex, and they don't want to imagine her in the drugstore getting plan b. >> this is 1% of 11-year-olds are sexually active. by invoking 10-year-olds and 11-year-olds, he played to that. >> the question of sex ualitsexe need to apply common sense. we are talking about the drug, and this is -- it costs between 30 and $50, some places $70.

it's a very expensive one-time drug. this is not something young women can stock pile so they can go out and have -- >> unprotected sex. >> and in bringing the conversation back to what is clearly an obvious discomfort about sexuality and young women, he is completely altering in not only flying in the face of scientific evidence, but also the very nature of what we are talking about when we talk about emergency contraception. he is mangling it. >> the thing that is so disturbing to me, we believe in science or we don't. we just had a discussion about global warming and the politics, and we are the folks that say we believe in scientists and the implications of it, and we should just be honest, this is a political debate about who we think gets it. >> let me -- >> we should take our own critique and be honest. >> the president himself in

overturning the stem cell policy, and he is talking about the role of science in policy making. >> let's be clear, promoting science is not about providing resources, it's about protecting free and open inquiry, and it's about letting scientists do their jobs free from manipulation, and especially when it's inconvenient. >> i believe we have somebody with us that was at the event and can speak to this a little bit. dr. susan wood, are you there on the satellite? >> i am. good morning. >> good morning. you worked at the fda back in 2005, i believe, and you were involved in the first time that the petition was made to make up a plan b available over-the-counter, the administration decided not to approve plan b over-the-counter,

and you resigned as the commission's health, and what is your reaction to the decision that they took in this case? >> well, first of all, i would like to respond to some of the comments earlier, and certainly the president's comments talking about family. the folks at fda are not faceless bureaucrats, they are scientists and physicians and particularly experts in this matter, and they also have families and are parents and surely don't want unsafe or ineffective products on the market. so when this has been and should have been approved fully over-the-counter for something like eight years now, when that was blocked and including blocking the commissioner's statement or opinion, it was really quite shocking and very surprising. none of us expected that. >> talk to me first of all about the process. my understanding is there's a

body within the fda tasked with determining the effectiveness of a drug and also its safety for over-the-counter use. it makes a recommendation of the fda and then the fda makes a recommendation. hhs has overruled the fda's determination, and is that the first time this has happened? >> as far as i am aware and as far as anybody i know is aware, this is unprecedented. unfortunately, it sets a precedent for possibly a future secretary, say a secretary tom coburn, to take a look at decisions that the fda makes about all kinds of products, and say, he doesn't feel comfortable with that decision in overturning, say, an aids preventive product or the, you know, anything related to abortion or sexual health, or vaccines. there could be all kinds of trouble that could be created in the future by this precedents.

>> it's overriding the determination made by the fda -- >> yes, that is precedents. >> talk about the circumstances under which you resigned, and this has been a controversial pill since it first came on the market in, i believe, 1999, and it was originally a prescription only, right? >> right. >> you were serving in the fda in the bush administration, and what happened then? >> unfortunately, it's very similar and reminiscent of what is happening now, only was a little more aobscured, and we didn't know where the pressure was coming from. >> the commissioners, just to be clear, the commissioners inside the fda? >> yes, that is correct. >> it was not even getting far enough? it was blocked in earlier

stages, am i correct noo correct. that's where the official action occurred, although lots of speculation happening about it elsewhere above. >> why did you feel so strongly about this where you started to resign? that's a big decision to make? >> it was. i never thought i would be reliving these conversations, but indeed, at the time, the science was once again overruled, the professional staff, the outside advisory groups, the pediatricians, the obgyns all agreed years ago that this was safe and effective, and it -- it's perfectly appropriate to go over-the-counter for women of all ages to have access to it, because it has -- it provides a second chance to prevent an unintended pregnancy. having it blocked then by false arguments, the same argument -- there was arguments about teen use and access and compromise

was the age restriction. but even then that argument was false, and it is still wrong today. >> democratically elected leadership should have the ability to overrule bureaucracy. are we going to listen to what the pentagon is saying and the commander in chief not have the authority to -- >> you want civilian control of everything. >> this is civilian control. taking in the great contributions of our democratic institutions, but at the same time, we have to have that reach back. >> i think dr. wood made the point that folks in the fda are not faceless bureaucrats.

and there's an idea that many people have, there are's decisions that should be made by science, the thing called science with a capital "s." science is pervasive. it impacts every single decision that any politician will make. there's a space for the other decisions. >> we will talk with dr. susan wood more after this break. ♪ you, you ain't alone

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we have with us dr. susan wood who formally served in the fda as a commissioner in women's health and resigned over what she thought was the manipulation of plan b to be sold over-the-counter.

i want to give you a chance to respond to what folks were saying in the last segment. >> one thing i want to point out is the question about safety and common sense. that's something the fda physicians and scientists considered, but i went out looking for emergency contraception last night to look at the safety label itself, and i don't know if you can see it, but this product, it cost me $50, and i had to go to three different pharmacies to get it, when i found a pharmacy that was open, i couldn't believe it. they asked me for my id to make sure that i was over 17. i tried to take that as a compliment. and you get for it, you get this one pill, just one, and it costs $50. and it's very, very safe. it has only one safety comment on it, which is don't take it if you are already pregnant because it will not work. if you are allergic to this drug

and know that you should not take it. you compare it to the children's pain reliever, it's bubble gum flavored, and it has liver warnings, and things not to take, multiple doses, depending on how old you are and how much you weigh, and very serious warnings about the liver damage and actually fatality of the product. can you get 24 pills of this for less than $5, anybody, no id, anywhere. and you can get condoms of 20 different varieties. so we're talking about the common sense of can a person of my age and shall we say a bit younger have access to it easily in a timely fashion to prevent an unintended pregnancy, and we want them to be able to, whether she's 25 or 35 or even 15, and this really is not about 11-year-old safety, it's about

access to prevention of an unintended pregnancy, we don't want unintended pregnant teenagers, or any unattended pregnancies, we want to help women when they need it. >> the ruling is confusing. plan b is now one of three drugs that are over-the-counter for everybody over a certain age but are behind the pharmacy county below the certain age. the result being sued afed. and kids should not be smoking, and so the result is three things behind the counter. rebecca, you still have to go get it from behind the counter. >> we need to think about what kind of impact and who that kind of thing impacts. for example, if i am somebody

that perhaps is undocumented in some way, i don't -- i have to show an id. that has a tremendous impact on certain groups of people in addition to young people who now don't have the ability, and not everybody lives in a city where they can go to three pharmacies. many people in the country live in a place where there is one pharmacy, and in a small town where everybody knows where they are. >> with the 50-dollar price tag -- >> yeah, that's limited. >> we were just having the discussion in the break, and the president said this was a decision made by kathleen sebelius, and it was the right political division -- based on the response, and i am looking at the twitter feed, and people

get really emotional about the thought, the image of the 12-year-old girl that has unprotected sex, it's very emotionally powerful. if it was a political division, he made the right political division. >> to me, the idea of the 12-year-old who then doesn't have access to another plan to prevent her from having an unplanned pregnancy, that also is very emotional to me. >> well, i just think that it goes back to the question of what is appropriate in the space of democratic politics. one of the points rebecca made earlier during the break, sebelius made a scientific claim, and the president layers on top of the claim saying here is the moral argument. i think that resinates with a lot of people, and there are things of significance in any society, but when you think about the death penalty.

there's a question of does it produce crime, and some crimes are so bad they should not happen regardless of these questions, and these questions that we think as belonging in the demain of science. i think plan b should be available to people under the age of 16, and the idea that we can defer the questions in some domains and the people around the table would reject the idea of what some people believe about this division, because they are moral as well as scientific divisions. >> well, i want to say what the proper role here is, between the political leaders and the civil servants inside the fda in making these kinds of determinations. >> i think this goes back to the president-setting issue, if another secretary takes on other issues and overrules the fda in, again, in a way that has never

been done before, it has really paved the way for whether it's related to aids, or cancer screening tests, or treatments, now somebody who does not have the expertise or knowledge is going to be making a division based on their own opinion and gut reaction when it's really a public health division and one that the fda has always done and should not be overruled on. >> dr. wood, professor of health, and former assistant commissioner for the women's health in the fda, dr. wood, thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. conservatives keep saying they want obama to lead on the global stage. he did this week and they're not happy about it. that's after this. i'd like one of those desserts and some coffee.

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the sweet sounds of ted leo on a sunday morning here on "up with chris hayes." there's something that deserves way more attention than it received. hillary clinton devoted an entire speech at the u.n. event in geneva to the u.s. commitment to lbgt rights. >> like being a woman, like being a racial, religious, tribal or ethnic minority, being lgbt does not make you less human, and that's why gay rights are human rights and gay rights are human rights. >> the obama administration issued a presidential memorandum making it u.s. policy to protect the rights of lbgt people

throughout the world. she got a standing ovation there, but it was not well received at home. >> the war on traditional american values must stop, promoting special rights for gaze in foreign countries is not worth a dime of taxpayers' money. what did you think of the speech? >> her line gay rights are human rights, and she used that a year before at the state department, so it's not a new line from secretary clinton. what i found surprising and somewhat interesting and somewhat hypocritical, she really has a robust stance for, you know, anti-gay persecution abroad, but calling for the legal codes to be reformed, really a terrific and important speech, but here in the united states, she doesn't take a stance on gay marriage and barack obama doesn't take a

stance on gay marriage. >> she said my own country has an imperfect history, but what i thought about the speech as well, and i thought it was a phenomenal speech, and i learned from the speech because she cited all sorts of examples, and she said this is not a western value that says that gay people should be treated equally, and she cited the south african constitution, and i was -- it was really remarkable for me to learn through the speech the progress that is being made in countries not, you know -- i thought the politics were fascinating. >> well, and she has kinds of a history of really having very forward leaning speeches on these important human rights issues, such as in '95 in beijing at the human conference on woman she gave perhaps the

most important women's rights speech of modern times. so kind of this speech builds somewhat on that. but it's interesting that this is coming into focus, and i feel that it has been such an area that, you know, gay rights activists have not been as involved with, just like f femanists. >> the line, the line gay rights are human rights and human rights are gay rights. i was curious about who wrote the speech? it was a teaching speech. it included all kinds of new information. it was not political posturing. it taught everybody that heard it something, which is also true in the beijing speech. i take your point the difference between the rhetoric, which is kredbly important and sends an important signal, and the

policy -- the women's speech that hillary clinton gave in '95 was followed -- i was complaining about barack obama's language with regards to the reproductive rights, and i had many complaints with hillary clinton's language with preproductive rights, and she walked back all kinds of reproductive stuff as a senator in '84. she makes the tremendous grand pronouncements, and they don't always match. >> i think it's important when the administration does good that we acknowledge they did good. >> that's why we have this segment. >> with plan b, it was politically brilliant. not maybe what i would have chosen. the speech this week, that's the president we hoped we would see,

when you see clarity around values. part of what has been disappointing, we don't see the president we always thought we would see, but we saw it this week. hillary clinton gets credit for that, but the president takes a hit for plan b? >> he is the chief in commander. >> let me say, too, as in terms of what it commits the u.s. to policy wise, for those seeking asylum for those based on their sexual orientation. >> just to be politically tiresome, is this a moment when some of those who were hillary clinton backers, saying gosh maybe we nominated the wrong person. >> and i think it was clear, at least in my -- in how news of the speech was communicated to me, and it was widely ignored

along some sectors, but it seems clear this was clinton and obama working together and it was the rainbow and star light version of this, and in that all the great things that they were doing, they were doing together and he was by her side and that in fact this was a joint effort. >> i think what is fascinating is to contras the two decisions, but also the politics. i think we saw how the plan b politics is like touching a hot stove. five, six, seven or eight years ago, the politics would be touching a hot stove. i want to talk about the politics of how they changed right after this break.

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that was texas governor, rick perry doing his ad. that ad, which came out this week, you mentioned in our first hour this, and that ad seems like an ad from another time and place. it was five or six years ago that would be a standard ad for a republican to cut in an election. in 2004, that was a key issue and the fact that gays get special rights and etc. it's a marker of progress, that has --

it feels like a black and white -- >> it's a sign of desperation on perry's behalf. he is in the last throws of his campaign. he is not a frontrunner anymore, and he is not going to return to that status, at least in my opinion. >> you are young, and you are a republican, and a conservative, and one of the things that i think we have seen in the poll something a massive generational divide among conservatives specifically on this issue. >> it's something lindsay graham spoke about openly how the party is missing this generation of millennials, that tend to be fiscally conservative. and so this is something that is like do we want the generation to think of themselves as democrats or do republicans want to appeal to that rising generation? >> rick perry has his eye on iowa, and as much as things have

changed, the based, the strongest part of the gop coalition -- >> particularly in a place like iowa. >> yeah, and if you were to carve up the gop places, the large block is evangelical christians. >> i found it interesting. this is something that i would like to explore, more red state republicans, who do not fall into that stereotype. i have a ton of friends in mississippi, who are that millennial generation. they want to vote republican, but the far right doesn't appeal to them, and they are struggling for the next option. they are not going to vote for obama, but it's the middle ground between that. >> i thought that the commercial was offensive to republicans. i was looking -- i thought the best way for people to become a frontrunner was to insult the fact that gay and lesbian people can serve in the military and

that faith is the answer, and gay and lesbian is not. part of the thing is to watch the internet, they put it on youtube and did likes and dislikes, and it was one to 100,000. >> yeah, and it had the most dislikes on youtube. >> when you think about who is sitting on the internet doing likes and dislikes -- >> well, i don't know if they are constituents. >> the crowd sourcing at its best. a youtube commentator. >> i want to know the kids who are not allowed to celebrate christmas. all the stuff he was hiding on in the ad, putting people, gays and lesbians on one side, and people of faith -- it was deeply out of touch.

>> i am sorry to do this, but the foreign policy as it relates to foreign rights, bun thing i want to throw out there, when you look at iran and cuba, in a way, clinton's initial fif could be seen as a weapon for the united states to deploy against regimes, and i think that's something that has been part of center right and conservative rhetoric in the united states and elsewhere. and during the bush administration, you know, the white house and the state department did criticize other countries with regards to gay rights. >> they did. and in the annual human rights reporting. but what they are doing, what secretary clinton was able to do was really build on all of the support for gay rights that over the past ten years really, and it's a seismic important shift within america, i think. >> i also think, perry's

statement in response to clinton's speech where he talked about special rights, i think it's interesting. i think we need to think about what rick perry is saying when there is a speech being made about human rights. >> what is interesting, that language, a special rights language is what we saw on ballot initiatives, that too feels -- i am cheered by how much all of this has a time capsule field to it. what you should know for the news week ahead coming up next. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day

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in just a second, what you should know for a week ahead. but right now a preview with "weekends with alex witt." we will take you inside the spin room, and you will see how many graded the evening and we will tell you what lines were unexpected and unscripted. a new poll just released will

show just exactly how newt gingrich fares against president obama in a critical swing state. the payroll tax cut is down to the wire. will the gop block the bill that could keep $1,000 in the pockets of families next year. we will talk to maxine waters about that next. as a republican leadership makes its demand of the payroll tax be exstenedded only if the controversial pipeline is built, and you should know that the number of jobs it says it will bring is almost certainly wildly inflated. you should know that whatever the politics of teenage girls and sex is, the fda came to the conclusion that the morning after contraception should be

made to teenage girls over-the-counter. >> let's be clear, promoting science is not about providing resources, it's also about protecting free and open inquiry. it's about letting scientists, those that are here today, do their jobs, free from manipulation or coercion and listening what they tell us, even when it's inconvenient, especially when it's incon venant. and one of governor scott walker's appointees to the state board believes the state's fair employment law does not apply to gay people. two other members of the commission disagree, which they found in favor a machine operator -- we want to warn the viewers of the ugly anti-gay colors, and co-workers repeatedly called the gay man in question, fag, and stuck a

sticker on his locker that said "queer." you should know that the president's nominee to fill a vacancy on the court of appeals will not take the seat. four of the republican senators that filibusters her were members of the very same gang of 14 that pledged to only filibuster judicial nominees in extreme circumstances. our viewer things you should know a florida civics teacher is facing fines for registering high school students to vote. teachers must add here to a set of impossible conditions. this teacher faces third-degree felony charges. you should know florida is not

alone and that texas and georgia have passed similar measures. you should know that governor rick scott of florida deejayed for a cruise ship. ♪ >> you should know the presidential republican candidate will not be appearing on our program anytime soon. one of our booking producers contacted his office to extend an invau indication to appear, and when he said he could not make it work, we enquired if he could not make this weekend and his no was a blanket no, and we got this response, blanket, sorry, nothing against chris personally. i am undetoured and my offer still stands. my guest will come back and tell us what they think we should

know this week right after this. ♪ you, you ain't alone ♪ and just let me be [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ your ticket home [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. take an extra 10 percent off storewide now through sunday. ta[ femala $100 cream. we were 1flattered when regenerist beat flabbergasted when we creamed a $500 cream. for about $30 regenerist micro-sculpting cream hydrates better than over 20 of america's most expensive luxury creams. fantastic. phenomenal. regenerist.

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our guests are back to tell us what we should know as the news unfolds this week. what should folks know? >> i am going to the huntsman-gingrich debate in new hampshire. huntsman will have a longer forum, and can he hold up against newt, who is a master debater as he emerged. and i would like to see huntsman rise from earlier. >> and lincoln douglas, it's three hours or -- >> yeah, three. he challenged and promised to do eight of them if he is the nominee. >> this is a huge part, i think, of the newt gingrich appeal, he

will retore klee vest the president -- >> what are huntsman's chances of rising at this point? he did make a flip-flop on climate change? >> they are banking it all on new hampshire. >> yeah, and that's why he was not at the iowa one last night. >> it is maybe it will work, and i will be hopeful, but it's pretty risky. who knows? i heard that romney -- i have been doing a little reporting from there and i heard romney's ground game is not as strong as it could be -- >> in new hampshire. >> yes, in new hampshire. we will see what will happen. >> what should people know? >> i think people should know the environmental protection agency is what makes sure that we have clean air and water and every debate whether it's around taxes or other forms of policy will have hit on the environmental protection agency, and we should be clear that's

what keeps our air and water clean, and when they create policy it creates jobs. it's an agency that creates jobs, clean air and water and something we should all care about. >> the epa, i have seen is a job destroyer. what is the argument of the epa? >> people, when they actually spend is how our economy grows. when you look at a ruling around boilermakers, they say you have to change the technology, which means you have to find people to install it and create it and make it, and we want to figure out how do they force people to spend and create jobs where people can use their hands and support their family. >> if you are talking about capital equipment like that, that's actually investment in the new technologies. and the other point is the more basic fact of the health and well-being of a populist is the

driver of growth and jobs, when you have people with asthma because of poor air quality, all of that is deadweight losses. >> people -- keeping people healthy and clean. i was with somebody that works with water, and they were spending billions in making drinking water clean in communities. and that's where we are, there are communities that will make sure we have clean water. so we think about what is our jobs plan, we think about folks we know get construction jobs, so we have to have for agencies that create better health. one thing that is interesting, i looked at a report by a conservative columnist, and they said to congress give us some of the job-killing examples, and a

lot was what would happen in the future. >> and rebecca? >> i don't know if we will get the answer this week, but one of the things we should know and be talking about is whether or not the united states is going to be allowed to detain terror suspects. the question is whether or not the president will veto that president. i don't know the timing of it, and i doubt it will be this week, but it's something we should be talking about more than we have. >> it allows for the indefinite detentio detentions, and it is in the case of different terrorists. >> naturally some people embrace

the view of michael mandel, and he talks about regulatory agreetions in a different way. the fda is potentially been a huge barrier in the innovation of the life science. there's a book about how we might launch a renovation -- it's $2.99, less than a fancy cup of coffee. >> well, thank you to my guests, and thank you all and thank you for joining us. we will be back next saturday at 7:00 eastern time, and su00.dvr. you can follow us on facebook. and up next is alex witt.

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who matters most to you says the most about you. massmutual is owned by our policyholders so they matter most to us. massmutual. we'll help you get there.