you know at the top of the show, we mistakenly asked you why are you awake? well, producer john tower has your answers. >> good morning, mr. barnicle. we have rowland and he writes, you should skip make-up more often, thanks for the show. >> what? wait a minute. what? >> sorry. i don't write the e-mails. >> what's her name? what's her name? gail, gail, guess what? every day you get older too. okay? what else you got? >> russ in memphis writes, it's not nice to trick senile old guy to fill in on the early show. please show more respect for your elders. >> hey, russ, go call gail, will ya? "morning joe" starts right now. i'm angry.

. from 59 yards out for the tie -- the kick is good! >> wow. >> unbelievable! unbelievable! >> second down and 12th. tebow to the outside, and it was caught by thomas! from 51 yards out for the win, it is good! >> this is special. and if you believe, you know, unblooeu unbelievable things can sometimes be possible. we have a team that constantly believes and believes in each other. >> i'm not sure i'd start with all the political news we have this weekend with that. >> i think it was a good call. >> good morning, everyone. >> is that what this is about? >> it's monday.

>> you don't love tim tebow? >> welcome to "morning joe." with us onset we have the executive editor at random house, and historians make a lot of money. nice to meet you, jon meacham. and we also have, speaking of money, economic analyst steve rattner. and also, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. nice to see you. >> just to set this up for you and 98% of the people that may not what was going on there. tebow, jimmie johnson right after the game said aye never seen any player like this. that can bring his team back the way he does. this guy was like 3 for 16 in the first three quarters in the fourth quarter he threw 80%. took his team into overtime, they were behind ten points with two minutes left and came back. and won. >> and as you know, joe, as captain of his team as you are captain of this team, he has people believing in him. >> of course.

that's the spirit. >> people believe in him just like they believed in montana. and the shocking things is, he's a second year kid who cannot throw the ball, and yet all he does is win. he's like 7-1. >> 6-1. >> 6-1, and in the nfl, and there's just not a harder, more competitive league. it's crazy. >> and you're right. the first quarter of the game. i think you're right. he was like 3 for 16, my daughter, julie, has a better throwing motion than he does. >> no doubt about it. >> and his defense -- they believe in him and they win. >> and he figures out a way to win. >> so, we have -- the president who was on "60 minutes." >> i actually saw him after tebow. >> we have the republican debate in iowa over the weekend, which was something else. and some news out of "meet the press" yesterday, as well. i would say we should start with the president. >> there you go.

>> okay. president obama's campaign for reelection made an appearance on "60 minutes" where a new cbs news poll pointing to what could be a difficult road ahead for the president. according to the poll, only 41% of americans believe barack obama deserves to be reelected, 75% say the country is headed in the wrong direction. this is tough numbers, even more troubling for the president, 49% of americans believe his policies have not prevented a greater recession. that number includes 50% of independents. but in an interview with 60 minutes, the president discussed the poll results, defending his campaign promises to take on big problems like the economy while challenging business as usual on in washington, d.c. >> i didn't overpromise, and i didn't underestimate how tough this was going to be. i always believed that this was a long-term project.

that reversing a culture here in washington dominated by special interests was going to take more than a year, more than two years, more than one term. probably takes more than one president. >> president obama also weighed in on the current field of republican candidates running for president. >> if i can't get republicans to move, partly because they've made a political strategic decision that says anything obama's for, we're against, because that's our best chance of winning an election. but keep in mind, i'm talking about republican members of congress, i'm not talking about republicans around the country. if you take my name out of it and just look at the ideas that we've been presenting, these are common sense mainstream ideas. that republican presidents in the past have supported. >> the president says he

believes front runners newt gingrich and mitt romney will be "going at it for a while." obama also spoke about his responsibility to find solutions to america's problems while placing the blame on republicans for what seems like unending gridlock in washington. >> it doesn't really matter who the nominee is going to be. the core philosophy that they're expressing is the same. and the contrast in visions between where i want to take the country and where they say they want to take the country is going to be stark. >> mike, what was your take on the president last night? >> you know, my take on it was that he sort of like not grasp. grasping's the wrong word, but trying to navigate himself toward something where he can declare a victory. whether it's doing something by executive order. but he's trying to -- he's trying to get to a point where he feels, here, here's the difference. i propose this, they said no. >> did he seem sure footed to

you? >> partially, no. in parts of it, no. he seemed hesitating and in a couple of segments there to a couple of questions. he seemed hesitant and sort of paused a little too long. >> do you agree with that, john? >> i do. that was what struck me theatrically. he looked tired. who the hell wouldn't be? >> right. >> but if you're there with steve croft and you know what this is going to be -- "60 minutes" is still one of the top three shows in the country, a bigger audience you're probably going to get -- >> other than "morning joe," it is the topmost watched -- >> well, other than mike barnicle sitting in at "way too early." >> that's, of course, that's like the "american idol" of news. there was one particular moment i thought was really telling. and it suggests that this president is still shaped by the remarkable reception he got in

2008. and it was when he said to steve, well, you know, republicans agree with me. and then steve said, well, you've got a 7% approval rating among republicans. and he looked jarred. and you could see his mind working through that. it's as if he does not -- he still can't grasp how far this country has moved away over the past three years. >> i think that's right. i think he's got -- he operates like all of us, on two speeds. but his intellectual analytical gear is where he spends most of his time. and i think that in an odd way, recognizing the 7% number, recognizing what i continue to believe a fundamental failure to establish an enduring connection to the people, if you're a politician, it's such a system failure that -- >> right.

>> one would have a hard time getting your head around it. >> here's the thing, though, steve rattner, there is a systemic failure in washington, d.c. i think most americans agree with that. you look at right track, wrong track. and you look at barack obama's numbers that steve put out there last night. they're just horrific one year out. and yet, of all the polls that have bombarded us over the past month, i saw one this weekend that just made me stop and say, oh, my god. and it was the nbc news marist poll taken in south carolina, not newt stomping mitt. that's the story now and that's going to be a story for a while. it was when they had a general election match-up between barack obama and newt gingrich and then barack obama and mitt romney. obama beat both of them.

in south carolina, a state that has not gone democratic -- how long, alex? since jimmy carter in 1976 and before that you'd have to go all the way back to john kennedy in 1960. this is stunning. stunning. how it's not just newt gingrich that americans are going to reject, it looks like mitt romney, the whole republican field right now is just not acceptable to main street americans. >> well, i don't know that we know the answer to that yet. i think that particularly if it's romney, the president's going to have a very tough race. but to the earlier conversation, i think there are two problems the president's trying to overcome as he does these kinds of interviews. i don't think he found his narrative. he sort of tries out different story lines, different ways to describe what he's trying to do. the speech in kansas the other day when he invoked teddy

roosevelt. one stab, last night i thought was a different take on it. here's his big problem. he's trying to prove a counterfactual. he's trying to move that if he hadn't done what he did, the country would be much worse off. if you saw in the slide, the country doesn't necessarily believe that. i believe it fervently. i believe if he hadn't done the things he did, we would be in a great depression, 8.6% unemployment would look like full employment compared to where we would be. the people who say we shouldn't have done t.a.r.p., the stimulus, all the stuff i think are absolutely wrong, but you can't prove it. you can't say to people, this is what it would have been if we hadn't done all the stuff. >> he's also got -- in watching the interview and thinking about it right now, he's got this issue to deal with. and it's an internal issue, i think. and it's almost a psychological issue. here's a man who ran for the united states senate in 2004. he has remarkable gifts. he's eloquent. he's convincing, he's clearly

very smart. he wins the presidency in 2008 overcoming all sorts of doubts and surpassing a field filled with a couple of truly, truly good candidates, hillary clinton being the most prominent. and now he's in the white house. and he has very little legislative experience, very little washington experience because he's been out on the road campaigning. and i think he is stunned given his gifts and his inability to get anything really done in congress. i think he's stunned by it. >> yeah, but he doesn't look at it as his inability. he is stunned that those that are fortunate enough to work with him are not helping him pass legislation to make history. >> well, i think it's if you think of it from a biographical point of view, it's his thinking the system -- in a weird way the country is not commensurate with his gifts. that's a harsh thing to say. but i have a feeling in the dark

night of a soul, that's what he feels. i think he thinks this is an 18th century constitutional republic that needs significant updating. i think he sees the reflects of opposition that a culture that gingrich helped build as one huge stumbling block. he sees all of us as another huge stumbling block. well, that's true. >> and let's just say, he sees elected leaders from across the country as a stumbling block. he sees democracy -- >> well, but he is -- >> no, he sees -- he sees this version of -- as you said, of this government as a stumbling block that's getting in the way of his greatness. >> well, there's one other point here that he didn't want to admit last night for obvious reasons. the fact is, the economy is worse than anybody expected. they are more intractable than anybody expected. and that makes the whole thing tougher. >> yeah. well, i think you all are just simply brilliant, but the

interview with steve croft, to your part, barnicle, he's developed a relationship with him, he's comfortable, he was honest, tired, and realistic about where we stand right now. and we're not used to that. we're used to seeing a game and a fight, which you can find on the republican side over the weekend. and as for a narrative that you don't think he's found, i think he nailed it in kansas. and i think that economic inequality being the defining issue of our time, that is a message, and hard work that people have put in that is not paying off, that's a message that's going to carry the democratic party. and if you look at the republican field, i don't see any other way. i don't see a republican who is going to galvanize this country and say we want a republican back in office. >> mika, i don't think that's the defining issue of our time. income inequality -- >> i disagree. >> you know what the defining issue of our time is? jobs. >> and it all plays into it. >> but it's not income

inequality. it's jobs. >> okay. >> i think income inequality poses a real threat to this country. but the bottom line -- >> people -- >> if barack obama can convince the american people that he knows how to get america back to work, i think he'll be reelected. i don't know -- did you think that the guy that was on tv last night would give americans that confidence? i don't think he did a bad job. >> he gave me a hell of a lot more confidence than the guys on tv saturday night. >> well -- >> that's a low bar. >> sorry, guys. the latest nbc news poll shows the former house speaker topping the gop field in south carolina with 42% support among likely primary voters. that is up 35 points from last month, mitt romney is in a distant second. >> this is unbelievable. >> i'd call that a surge. >> seriously, 15%. >> that is not a surge, that's

secretariat coming down the stretch of the belmont in '73. >> think about that when you pontificate about the president's weaknesses for 15 minutes. seriously. look at this. >> hold on a second, mika. we have been pontificating about the republican field's weaknesses for 15 weeks. come on, this is the first time we talk about the president in 15 weeks and -- >> you pick on the "60 minutes" interview. >> we didn't pick it apart. what would you like us to do? just bow down to him? >> the president -- >> and there was the whole football thing so -- >> he likes football. >> you lost me on that too. >> by the way, when i say at the top of the show that the president is leading in south carolina and that this is the most jarring poll, i mean, i don't know -- would you like me to put a robe and a crown on him? what would you -- how adoring do

you want everybody to be here? >> i just want you to be realistic. >> i am being realistic. >> four administrations led us to where we are today and it's a slow crawl out. >> absolutely. >> and the options are pretty scary. >> as a political matter, the cleveland question, right. >> yes. >> october 28th, 1980. ronald reagan says are you better off than you were four years ago? the problem, the tragedy, i'll use that word. the classic tragedy to this is to go to steve's point is that we are not as worse off as we would have been had he not been president. that is too many conditional -- >> the word you use counterfactual. >> historically, if you're looking at barack obama, he still stands a huge chance of being seen as a great president for when we understand those first six -- >> okay. >> it's not those six months right now. >> well, the counterargument, though, and this is the argument

we'll have. he made things worse. and what we're going to do is we're going to hear people talking about how business owners -- and they have been, frozen on the sidelines. small business owners, large business owners, corporations, their money's frozen on the sidelines because this president has put too many question marks over the economy. and yes, we start with the health care plan. so there's going to be that argument. i think both sides are going to have -- i think the president could actually make the argument steve's making even stronger, which i made at the 92nd street y. he could be more forceful with that even though i disagree with it. let's run really quickly, newt gingrich is ahead in florida, he's at 44%, he's gained 38 percentage points in the last day. mitt romney is 15 points behind him in my home state, wow. >> what is going on? >> and the first debate since gingrich leapt to the front, the gop field took aim at the house

speaker for everything from his political record to his personal life. it was -- everybody was pounding away at gingrich. and you know, mitt romney even tried to paint gingrich as a career politician. and he talked about how he'd worked in the private sector. but along with every other attack, newt not only brushed this one off but seemed to actually gain strength from it. take a listen. >> let's be candid. the only reason you didn't become a career politician is you lost to teddy kennedy. >> if i would have been able to get in the nfl liked i hoped when i was a kid, i'd been a football star all my life. >> gingrich -- even on the personal attacks, gingrich was pretty darn good at brushing those off. mike barnicle, a lot was made of mitt romney saying, hey, you want to make a $10,000 bet to rick perry. hey, sometimes these things are

overplayed and over talked about and overanalyzed. other times, george bush looking at his watch in the middle of a debate with bill clinton and he says, hey, the guy doesn't want to be here. let's run the sound bite for those who were fortunate enough not to watch the debate this weekend. play it. >> i'm hearing you say all the right things, but i read your first book, and it said in there that your mandate in massachusetts, which should be the model for the country, and i know it came out of the reprint of the book, but you know, i'm just saying, you're for individual mandates, my friend. >> you know what? you've raised that before, rick. and move on. >> it was true then. it's true now. >> rick, i'll tell you what. $10,000 -- $10,000 bet -- >> i'm not in the betting business. >> oh, okay. >> okay. so what do you think? rick perry, the guy talking about this weekend all the mo y

money. >> no, i don't think that stays up for a long time. >> everybody else agree? >> agree. >> i think the underlying as senator mccain would say, the underlying fundamentals of the romney issues are still there. >> yeah, it's a piece of the romney narrative really. not a good piece of the romney narrative. but i don't think that in itself becomes a defining moment in the campaign. >> if you watch the debates and you think back to the president in his speech earlier last week, he has the issue that resinates out there. and it's not whatever you want to phrase it, income redistribution -- >> disparity. >> it's fairness. >> yeah, well, okay. >> fairness is the issue. everyone understands that, and he's got that issue. >> i think he's got it and he's going to own it. you guys just wait. i'm serious. >> i can't wait. it's interesting, mitt romney is

now launching -- read this in mike allen's "playbook" this morning, he's launching this effort to humanize himself more. he's always been talking about bain capital and what he did as a businessman, but he's talking about when he was a missionary, talking about his past -- his personal life, talking about his family. he's trying to move beyond -- because voters just aren't connecting with him. he's the opposite of velcro. he really is, they will not grab hold to him. >> good point. >> it's going to be a personal push now. >> we're going to have jim vandehei on the set next to talk more about that. also coming up, senator joe manchin joins us, and chuck todd. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> good morning, mika. hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. one of the questions i'm getting asked a lot, where's the snow? two weeks to christmas and a lot of people are wondering, are we going to have a white christmas?

there's no snowstorms anywhere in the country. and only 31% of the country's covered with snow on the ground right now. appalachians, northern new england, of course, the mountains in the west and then the rockies, but that's about it. we don't have a lot of snow in areas that typically have a ton of it. michigan, wisconsin, buffalo to rochester don't have much on the ground. a cold morning out there today, enjoyable afternoon, plenty of sunshine, dry weather. there's no wet weather headed for the country. as far as today goes, the only travel troubles down on i-95 through georgia and florida, a little bit of rain for you. overall, though, it's a pretty nice day around the country. a little bit of travel trouble in los angeles and phoenix with showers and storms, but once again, mild temperatures and no snow on the way. you're watching "morning joe," we're brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.

lord of the carry-on. sovereign of the security line. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i deserve this. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro. it's all crossed out... it's 'cause i got everything on it. boom! thank you! [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart. so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. ♪

...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates.

joining me tonight are kelly o'donnell, an msnbc analyst in our studio. >> nice to be here. >> and jim vandeheho. >> hello, reverend, it's vandehei. >> and a big vandehei back to ya. >> oh, my goodness. that's the -- >> you made snl, that's huge. >> joining us onset with the politico playbook, jim vandehei. good morning. >> good morning. >> you're going to tell us how romney's going to humanize himself. >> right. >> when you have three weeks left and you have to prove you're human, that's probably a problem. he's trying to amplify parts of his life to show he is more approachable, talking about his mormon faith, his missions overseas. >> he's never done that. he didn't do that in his book. >> he's talking in more detail. a lot of his supporters said you have to do something to connect. the problem is, you don't fundamentally change this late in life.

just like newt gingrich is probably never going to fundamentally change, which i think is what unnerves so many republicans. >> are you shocked by these newt numbers? >> i think there's a 50/50 chance if not better that he wins the nomination. if you look at the polls, iowa, south carolina, florida, all of these states, it's not just a lead, it's a pretty big lead and people know his garbage, people know any baggage he carries into this race, people are familiar with it. and the most troubling aspect of newt gingrich. if you talk to people who served underneath him is this tendency to be so impulsive and and to do what he wants to do regardless of what everyone else in the room says. that's a tough thing to explain. with so i don't know that will be a make or break for him. because a lot of those members

are not talking publicly about the concerns they voiced to us over the last decade and a half about him. >> it's surprising, if you look at the polls on the weekend. mitt in the 20s and ron paul around 10%, and all of the other candidates have collapsed below 5%. >> and it's hard to see what changes. i mean, ron paul for the last four years has been at about 12% in the polls. mitt romney's been at about 20% in the polls. so what's going to change? that's a problem for mitt romney. he's been doing this professionally for five years. everyone's seen him, heard from him, knows everything you can about him. and they aren't that into you. what's going to change? yes, you are one of us. it's not going to -- >> what happened? >> it has to be the likability. >> does newt implode like cain imploded, like perry imploded? like the rest of them imploded? >> that's the conventional wisdom and i don't know that i buy it. we know that newt gingrich, when he rides high, he'll say something that gets him in trouble. i don't know if that's the case.

he has more self-control on the campaign trail we've seen in some time from him. and all of his flaws are so well known. they've been ventilated for so long that people have either forgiven him or saying oh, that's just part of being newt, and we like the good parts we're seeing from him. the strong debate performances, the electric mind. and people seem to find that very appealing. so something would have to change rally. where he said a lot of crazy things, was it last week that he was claiming his big role in stopping the cold war? >> yeah, he won the cold war. >> comparing calista gingrich to a mix of nancy reagan and laura bush -- he's had these grandiose statements that no one seems to flinch. non what he's going to do to change the new perception of newt. and the most fascinating story in the last 20 years in politics as far as a comeback for somebody who we've all known, who is such a known commodity, so damaged, has so many flaws, and suddenly, he could be your

republican nominee. >> and the thing is, you don't have to go back ten years to find the baggage. i mean, anybody else that called paul ryan who is, let's face it, like in terms of conservative budgetary politics the baby jesus of the republican party to call him a right-wing radical who is engaging in social engineering for being the only person to put out a courageous budget, that would've killed anybody else. i'll tell you, mike, it points to just how weak this field is. historically, we've been talking -- >> absolutely. >> power as poor as a vacuum now. and right now that vacuum is being filled. >> to jim's point, that might be maybe the biggest reason that newt has maintained, for him, such discipline over the course of his campaign. he's got to be standing there on the stage saying to himself, this is easy, i'm with aa ball players here and i'm a major leaguer. this is a lay-up. >> there's something twisted

going on. >> by the way, can we just say this, jim, when everybody's talking about the decline and fall of the republican party, if mitch daniels ran, he'd be 20 points ahead, if chris christie ran, he'd be 40 points ahead. i mean, seriously, there are strong republicans. >> and strong republican thinking. one of the stories people don't pay enough attention to. if you take portman, ryan, mitch daniels, these governors, there's innovative thinking going on policy wise, but it gets obscured by the silliness. >> and by the way, too, this is so important. i saw ed royce, a little known republican, congressman. in the "wall street journal" online, little podcast they do. and the guy's bright. there are so many intelligent republicans that americans don't even know that day in and day

out do hard work on the hill. and it is all just basically eclipsed by a clown show. >> it's unbelievable. i'm sorry. it's not what the country wants. they'll find out the hard way because he won't win ultimately. jim vandehei, thank you very much. >> it has been declared. >> i mean, seriously. okay. did you read kathleen parker this week? >> that was great. >> what about what she wrote wasn't completely right? >> he's not going to win the general election. you've declared it. >> that's right. >> for less than $10,000 -- >> i say one bold statement and you make fun of it. >> no, you're right. >> we'll be right back. why senator lindsey graham says the consumer financial protection bureau is something out of stalin's era, it was brilliant on "meet the press." [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest.

it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d. and tastes simply delicious. for those of us with lactose intolerance... lactaid® milk. the original 100% lactose-free milk. we get double miles on every purchase. so we earned a holiday trip to the big apple twice as fast! dinner! [ garth ] we get double miles every time we use our card. and since double miles add up fast, we can bring the whole gang! it's hard to beat double miles! i want a mace, a sword, a... oww! [ male announcer ] get the venture card from capital one and earn double miles on every purchase, every day. go to capitalone.com. i wonder what it could be?! what's in your wallet? it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone.

[ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart.

-- the giants at their last time-out. and they used it. unbelievable! unbelievable! i think he got a hand on it. >> wow, the cowboys collapse again. to talk about it, time for the "morning joe" gridiron grind.

we've got mike florio founder of sports blog dash talk dash dot dash uk dash u.s. dot tv. >> i got that domain name reserved just in case. >> okay. >> let's move through this. first of all, let's start with last night. the cowboys collapse again two weeks in a row. this time, though, making a lot of people in gothem happy. >> that's right, because the giants in four straight losses. and it was over, the cowboys up by 12 points, and then there was an opportunity when the game was a little bit closer for tony romo to hit miles austin wide open, go ahead, and then at least this week when they iced the cowboys kicker, he was iced by the other coach instead of his own coach. two straight weeks, collapses, bad use of time-outs. and you have to wonder at what point the coach of the cowboys is going to be on the hot seat.

>> we heard at the beginning of the year, the nfc east was going to be one of the toughest divisions. you've got the eagles now under water. you've got the giants weak. you've got the cowboys looking weak. does anybody want to win this division? >> well, you know, we've seen divisions like this in the past where somebody stumbles to a 9-7 finish. seattle won the division, but whoever wins it is guaranteed a home playoff game. and once you win that first one, go on the road, get some momentum. they went to the super bowl last time at 9-7. >> the cardinals. look at oklahoma state. they're playing -- oh, wait a second. let's move on. they're 5-5 a couple of weeks ago. boy, they have caught fire. >> and they do this every year. they bottom out at some point in the season. they find a way to get it going. the head coach said earlier in the week, if we get to the

playoffs, look out. they go on the road, they win two playoff games, they're going to have to do it the hard way again this year. but they're setting themselves up. >> three weeks ago, all the new york sports talk stations talking about who was going to be fired, what assistant coach was going to be fired. just how bad is mark sanchez? that talk's stopping now. this is a contender. >> boy, look down the horizon two saturdays, jets and giants, it could be a knockout game for the loser, and both teams are starting to get it together as they move toward that game. >> that's going to be a christmas eve showdown. i can't wait for that one. we have buried the lead. >> i'm surprised it took so long. >> because we know people are going to stick around for the tebow. and we're going to show that next hour. no, we'll do it right now. tim tebow, i come in from -- i'm doing some work, it's 10-0, near the end of the game. and i'm like, okay, looks like the miracles have ended. >> each time the sense is, okay,

surely this week they're not going to turn it around and win. and ten points in the final 2:08 of regulation. and the running back runs out of bounds when the bears could've killed the clock in regulation, fumbled the ball in overtime. >> fumbles the ball a split second after it looks like a break for the end zone and finish the game. >> there's something magical going on with the broncos team. they get the ultimate test when the patriots come to town. they keep finding a way to win. >> they do figure out a way to win. and john elway, we showed the shots after the first touchdown, finds a way to look more grim every week. >> this is the exact opposite of what he was. but you know what? they're winning games and as long as they're winning games, they need to embrace it and enjoy the ride. this is something special. the story of the season so far. >> let's look at the cardinals, 49ers. this happens in the nfl. but who in the world would've believed that the cardinals would lose to one of the hottest teams in football, the san

francisco 49ers? >> and the thing is, the coach of the 49ers all yearlong kept the 49ers from losing the teams they should be. but they finally lost one. and now you have to watch down the stretch. one of those two teams is going to finish number two in the nfc, there's going to be a playoff game between the saints and 49ers. where that game is played is going to determine who advances. because the saints very good at home, you get them out in the super dome, not as good. >> how good are the green bay packers? how good are they historically? >> how good is this kid at quarterback? aaron rogers? he's having the greatest quarterback year i can recall. just incredible. >> and we're all talking about tebow and brady and peyton manning because he's not around. it's like people don't pay attention to what rogers is doing because it all seems so easy, it's effortless, it's robotic and the packers keep winning the games. >> you watch a packers game,

joe, this kid, aaron rogers, puts it on a player's hip, just like a laser. like directed exactly and only where his player can catch the ball. i've never seen anything like it. >> i remember us saying throughout the entire baseball season, nobody's going to beat the fillies, nobody's going to beat the fillies, and cardinals beat the filphillies. who's going to beat the packers? who winds up the best in the nfc? >> well, if the bears make it in and make it healthy, look at that finesse with what the packers do, you get a bad day at the field, it's not as easy to throw the shoulder pass and the timing. it seems like the bears or 49ers could go in there and out muscle the packers. that advantage could go out the window. >> mike, thank you very much. >> thank you. next, the must-read opinion pages. we'll be right back.

. .

the other office devices? they don't get me. they're all like, "hey, brother, doesn't it bother you that no one notices you?" and i'm like, "doesn't it bother you you're not reliable?" and they say, "shut up!" and i'm like, "you shut up." in business, it's all about reliability. 'cause these guys aren't just hitting "print." they're hitting "dream." so that's what i do. i print dreams, baby. [whispering] big dreams.

this consumer bureau they want to pass is under the federal reserve, no appropriation oversight, no board. it is something out of the stalinist era. we want to board not only one person making the regulation decisions. h we want him under the congress so we can oversee the overseer. >> so i go online with this -- >> he's talking, by the way, about the consumer protection bureau. >> yeah. and by the way, stalin, a pretty good-looking guy in his mid-20s if you look at these pictures. but you scroll down past -- he

could be on the streets of paris, right? turn of the century. se seminaryian. what does it mean the stalinist era? i don't read a lot of books, right? >> not hard back. >> not hard back, at least. just books and pictures. but i read down on this internet thing. it ends up that he ends up killing over 30 million of his own people. >> oh, yeah. >> i'm sitting here thinking that this agency, right? >> yeah. >> straight out of the stalinist era. what -- does lindsey graham know what 30 million americans are targeted by this stalinist type? >> i think a couple of things, lindsey graham needs a little bit of help. >> do you think he doesn't read books either? >> i don't think he knows what happened in washington perta pertaining to the consumer financial protection bureau. it passed, it exists already. it's been created, and it has a board of regulators. so this is just another case of republicans blocking yet another nomination to head up the bureau

that was created by elizabeth warren. now they are trying to block richard -- >> the question, what 30 million people are going to be killed by this agency? because i've got a feeling, seriously, if senators had known what lindsey knows that this was a stalinist type regime and was going to kill 30 million people by passing this, i think cloture may have been a bit of a tougher battle for the administration. i mean, 30 million people, we've got 300 million, but seriously. >> i'm not joking about this. >> lindsey knows and he's privy to information and probably intelligence sources tell him. >> which 30 million they're going to kill. >> it's comparable to mastercard. you know, these credit agencies and everything like that. >> we're imprisoned by our appetites. >> the that what he's saying? >> oh, the -- >> that's right.

who are they? >> south carolina. >> it's a disgusting analogy, and it feeds into a bigger problem. >> 30 million people killed by stalin, and now we've got our own agency that's going to -- >> there's a good rule in life, if you tended to make any analogies of stalin or hitler, don't. >> if i may, we continue to have -- >> by the way, gingrich compared sebelius to stalin. and for the life of me, has hhs killed 30 million people? >> stop. it's not funny. >> so he knows the weight of these analogies. 30 million people killed by kathleen sebelius, and where did they hide them? >> let me save -- >> you don't have to save me from myself. it's a disgusting analogy, mika. it's a disgusting analogy, and lindsey and newt and everybody else that runs around comparing people -- and democrats did t s this -- they've done it all the time, comparing republicans to

nazis. they need to stop it. >> and get out of the way of some of these nominations. >> that's a different fight. that's a different battle. >> here's another battle. i talked about this last week. robert menendez writing in the "miami herald," politics shouldn't deny a qualified latino. the ambassador to el salvador who has done a great job and served a year. there's no question about the ambassador's qualifications or performance on the job, this is another case of republican foot-dragging in order to undermine the president's policy objectives. i am especially concerned by the actions of my senate colleagues who are willing to see this remarkable, hispanic woman sacrificed to inside the beltway politics with political points gained from bringing down a nominee supersedes promoting american interests. and back to the consumer financial protection bureau and that nomination which is now being blocked.

the one they blocked before by basically crowding her out, alex, do you have it? >> yep, we got it. >> this is something i saw in massachusetts on thursday. take a look. >> i want to tell you who i am. like a lot of you, i came up the hard way. my dad sold carpet, and when he had a heart attack, my mom went to work so we could keep our house. we all worked. my three brothers joined the military. i got married at 19, had two kids, worked my way through college, taught elementary school, then i went to law school. >> i stood up to the big banks and their army of washington lobbyists, i worked to hold them accountable, i led the fight for a new agency to protect consumers, and we got it, but washington is still rigged for the big guys, and that's got to change. >> she's going to win. >> she's good. you can't say she's going to win. >> that's what happens, seriously, people are getting tired. >> she's good. mike barnicle -- >> republicans going for the

same old stuff. >> she's a great candidate. she's a great candidate. and odds are that she will win. i would agree with you. >> she's a great candidate, but scott brown's a great candidate. >> he is. >> steve rattner, are you going to write a check out to a republican this year in massachusetts? >> i may well. i think she is actually on the wrong side of a lot of these issues. the banks did a lot of bad stuff, but not what she thinks. >> more "morning joe" in a moment. the employee of the month is... spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. it's hard for my crew to keep up with 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. 2% cash back. that's setting the bar pretty high. thanks to spark, owning my own business has never been more rewarding. [ male announcer ] introducing spark the small business credit cards from capital one. get more by choosing unlimited double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day.

what's in your wallet? this guy's amazing. premier of the packed bag. you know organization is key... and so is having a trusted assistant. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above and still pay the mid-size price. here we are... [ male announcer ] and there you go, business pro. there you go. go national. go like a pro. it's all crossed out... it's 'cause i got everything on it. boom! thank you! [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart. ♪ my hair is gone ♪ cheap cologne ♪ motor home ♪ i'm the rocket man! [ both ] ♪ rocket man

♪ burning out his fuse up here alone ♪ burning out his fuse up here alone? ahh. [ male announcer ] crystal clear fender premium audio. one of many premium features available on the all-new volkswagen passat. the 2012 motor trend car of the year. ♪ and i think it's gonna be a long, long time ♪

captain rogers, what's your

take on the events of last wednesday? >> it was awful, seth. which is why it was very important for me to come here tonight, and on behalf of everyone from american airlines, come here and issue an apology to mr. alec baldwin. >> alec, are you sure this is the right way to handle this? >> yeah, yeah, keep going. >> didn't it delay takeoff? >> it did. and it was the first time in the history of american airlines that one of our flights was delayed, come on, seth! we're bankrupt. how dare we speak ill of the great alec baldwin, and we can't even take off on time. >> it was also reported that alex baldwin slammed the bathroom door so loudly you could hear it in the cockpit. >> now, seth, words with friends can be frustrating, and again, i just started playing the game myself, but when you think you're about to play jailers off of someone, you realize you of someone, you realize you don't have the "i," let mern

you, that'll make you slam the bathroom door too! >> i think he got away with it. >> always does. >> always does. up next, we're back more with much measure "morning joe" in just a moment. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the typical financial consultation ttd# 1-800-345-2550 when companies try to sell you something off their menu ttd# 1-800-345-2550 instead of trying to understand what you really need. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we provide ttd# 1-800-345-2550 a full range of financial products, ttd# 1-800-345-2550 even if they're not ours. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 and we listen before making our recommendations, ttd# 1-800-345-2550 so we can offer practical ideas that make sense for you. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck, and see how we can help you, not sell you.

ttd# 1-800-345-2550 it's 4g, so you can do more faster. so, kathryn, post more youtube videos of your baby acting adorable. baby. on it. matt, ignore me and keep updating your fantasy team. huh? jeff, play a game. turbo-boosting now, sir. dennis, check in everywhere you go on foursquare. that's mayor dennis... of the water cooler. you're the best. liz, rock out to pandora. oh, no i'm an only child. and nick, you shouldn't even be here, you can do everything from the golf course. good? good. [ male announcer ] on at&t, blackberry® torch moves at the speed of 4g. ♪

♪ i can't get republicans to move partly because they've made a political, strategic decision that says anything obama's for,

we're against. because that's our best chance of winning an election. but keep in mind i'm talking about republican members of congress, i'm not talking about republicans around the country. >> they don't like you much better. it's only 7% approval rating. >> no, yeah, i understand. but i think that they like the ideas that we put forward. the interesting thing is the majority of them, republicans, actually think we should have a balanced approach to deficit reduction, including tax in creases for the wealthy. the majority of republicans do think we should make investments in roads and bridges and improving our airports and infor investing in basic research. so if you take my name out of it and just look at the ideas that we've been presenting, these are common sense mainstream ideas that republican presidents in the past have supported.

>> welcome back to "morning joe." that was president obama on "60 minutes" last night. jon meacham and steve rattner are still with us. >> thank god. >> joining the table, editor of the "new yorker" david remnick. >> who gets kicked off of airplanes regularly. doing what is the offense? >> well, he won't close his book. >> well, the ipad game -- >> i slam the bathroom door storming off. >> and your latte spills. >> and i go to my network of choice and get to be funny about it. >> there you go. >> we're talking about the president's appearance on "60 minutes" last night. we can show a little bit more, but first of all, there's the art that he made things worse that the republicans are trying to put out there. did he counter that well last night as well as during his speech last week? >> the speech in kansas last week was really red meat. that was -- i think the base was

waiting for that speech -- >> for a long time. >> the interview last night i thought was kind of strangely relaxed. i think he knows that he's got to kind of a dumb show, a goon show going on in the republican debates that he should just sit back and let happen. i don't think he could've dreamed of this kind of spectacle going his way. >> but i -- >> i think it's to his enormous advantage. >> i thought the interview was a counter tool. >> it's a zen-like calm. >> does the persistent zen-like calm fit with the work and the thesis you came up with when you were doing the biography at three years ago? >> that's him. that's him. this is a personality that hides in plain sight. he's been like this forever. you know, i -- this is the -- obama that you encountered in the white house, is the obama that you encounter practicing law and teaching law in chicago. this is the personality. this is who he is.

it's going to win or lose, but it isn't going to change. >> let's look at the polls, though, which are troubling for the president. it could be a difficult road ahead for obama. according to one poll that we look at, it's a cbs news poll, 41% of americans believe barack obama deserves to be reelected. 75% say the country is headed in the wrong direction. even more troubling for the president, 49% of americans believe his policies have not prevented a greater recession. that number includes 50% of independents. >> and you know, steve rattner, we are talking about him trying to make the counterfactual argument of what would've happened if he'd not done the things he did back in 2009. but you start looking inside these cbs numbers to see how many americans approve of his performance on the economy, the handling of the economy, it is just terrible. >> well, one of those last ones that basically said 50% of americans don't believe he's made the economy better than it

otherwise would have been is disappointing. that suggests he has not gotten his message across. i believe the opposite. and if he can't communicate that to the american people, that's disappointing. there are other polls when people are asked, who is responsible for this. the president comes in at about fourth on those. after republican, after congress, after the banks, then they get to obama. the public has some ability to differentiate the problems from the cause of the problems. >> but the problem, david, is the banks aren't on the ballot. >> but a republican will be on the ballot. and so far a republican has not emerged that seems particularly convincing either to his own party or to the public, whether economically or otherwise. sooner or later as obama said it on "60 minutes," he's not running against the ideal, someone else, the alternative. and if newt gingrich is presenting an alternative that's

that attractive, i'd be very surprised. >> we're going to get to the republican debate in one minute. david, i want you to see a poll that jumped out at me this weekend. it was taken by nbc news on south carolina. and it wasn't the one showing newt gingrich 87 points ahead of everybody else on the republican side. it was a match-up between barack obama, who has a 41% reelect and has 25% of americans thinking he's taking country in the right direction versus newt and then versus mitt. look at these numbers. they are absolutely staggering. south carolina, barack obama ahead of newt gingrich by 4 percentage points. and then you think about, what about the more moderate republican going up against? it's the same thing, basically, 45% to 42%, and that's almost within the margin of error. but if you're within the margin of error of south carolina and you're a republican running

against a democrat, you're in trouble. because as we said earlier, david, no democrat has won this state since 1976. >> south carolina was a big breakthrough for obama in the primaries last time. why? because there's an enormous african-american vote in that state. and i guarantee you that's what's booing him there. >> that's when president clinton seemed to be dismissive of that victory. >> how do you reconcile a poll like that with some of the polls we looked at earlier that shows the president's in trouble? what do they mean? >> what it means is you have a historically weak republican field. and what it means is -- >> exactly. >> mitt romney just is not attracting voters five years later. it means that all of the other candidates have been dismissed. it means that newt gingrich is in a position where as jim vandehei says, he's got about a 50/50 shot of winning the nomination. >> here's a guy that's a relic of the mid-90s, newt gingrich, his likability factor cannot be

that high in the end of ends. and he took the air out of mitt romney with that line about you didn't -- you weren't a professional politician because you lost to ted kennedy in 1994. and you could see all of the juice just drain out of mitt romney. his face suddenly wasn't so handsome anymore. he is -- he is just not connecting. he is just not -- he may win -- >> that was a bad debate. >> i think it was a bad debate. >> i haven't made a $10,000 bet in weeks. weeks. >> and he had the hand out. i think it was -- it was mitt romney's first loss. >> all right. >> and it came at a terrible time. >> david actually usually bets 10,000 tote bags. new yorker tote bags. >> umbrellas. >> you got from newt gingrich, who i guess you all are saying won the debate, and i guess he did. but there was nothing that he said that was true, and there's nothing he said -- >> you can't make that statement. you can't make a statement there's nothing he said that was true?

>> if you'd let me finish. >> clarify that first. >> on the issues that plague him, his huge problems, problems you think would bring a candidate down. let's just bring one up. money received from freddie mac. okay. he just blatantly lies about what that money meant. and everybody's okay with it. so i just don't get it. >> everybody's not okay with it. i'm certainly not okay with it. and i couldn't agree more. newt gingrich couldn't be a less attractive candidate in about a million different ways. just talking about debaters points, i'm talking about performative aspects. mitt romney at this point should be able to win that pretty handily against the newt gingrich. >> and i think one thing about the self-destructive newt. and you were there, you were watching it, you were watching it, you were watching it. remember, in december 1994, gingrich was the embodiment of

an ideological victory, right? this was a check on clinton. this was the conservatism could play, conservatism could govern. and he shut, you know, took the government to a shut down -- >> i've got to stop you there. >> okay. >> in december before he was even sworn in, he cashed in with a $4.5 million book deal that instead -- instead of republicans on january 4th, 1995 when we got sworn in, instead of us charging forward on all fronts, we started with what dick armey would eventually call newt fatigue. and it started early. even before we were sworn in, we were having to deal with him trying to cash in on government service. something that continues. >> no, that's perfect. because you can almost always make an argument that gingrich represents some kind of intellectual or significant ideological shift.

but two minutes later or simultaneously -- >> yeah. >> -- something else is going to happen. and i'm not talking about a gaffe. i think that's sort of silly. i'm talking about he litigated the ultimate reagan argument about, okay, you don't want government? we'll shut it down, and we'll see who wins. we saw who won, he was out cashing in even more four years later. so i just think that there's -- it's not so much looking for a gaffe here, it's that he represents an extreme version of a kind of conservatism that the country doesn't want any more than it wants an extreme version -- >> i have to step in here. as a consistent small government conservative and say newt gingrich is extreme, but just read a george will column and find out he's not an extreme conservative. he is an extreme newtist. whatever newt is thinking that day, he will take to the

extremes. the "new york times" this morning talking about his extreme vision of a doomsday scenario involving nuclear wes weapons that experts say isn't really going to happen. newt is an extremist, but as george will said, he would've made a marvelous marxist. >> exactly! >> he believes everything is interconnected -- >> why do you think he won the debate? >> again, it goes back. you and i are saying the same thing. i mean -- >> i doubt it. >> everything -- >> mika, he's so vulnerable for these reasons. he's so vulnerable. he's so out there. what he says is so preposterous that a skilled politician should be able to lance that pretty quickly and pretty easily. mitt romney couldn't do it. >> he's not doing it. >> well, what was interesting -- one of the things interesting on saturday night. >> by the way, barack obama's a pretty good debater. if he can't deal with newt gingrich, barack obama for all his faults --

>> he'll be fine. he'll be fine. >> one of the interesting things saturday night, to jon's point, i think the public sees him as an extremist because they remember the mid-'90s, everybody was at him for being too moderate. calling newt gingrich and all the stuff -- so he's in this odd position where he's an extremist for a lot of us, but on saturday night, he was a moderate being attacked by the so -- >> and i've got to before we go to this michele bachmann clip, mika, he got run out of town not because he was too conservative. we ran him out of town because he was -- he was too moderate on a lot of fronts. and it was the worst-case scenario. he would rhetorically come across as an extremist, but behind closed doors, it was just the opposite. he was hoping, hoping to strike a deal that would elevate him historically.

it's just the worst of all worlds. >> to your point, steve rattner, michele bachmann, i have to say, she's really -- >> she was good. >> every time she's better, and she's at the table. she's got a future. i mean, if it's not this race and it probably won't be, i have to tell you that she doesn't -- she impresses every time. >> she keeps getting better. no doubt. >> she's not a joke anymore. >> it's interesting to see a right-wing conservative, though, fondly remembering her time in a collectivist socialist experiment in the history of israel. >> you don't hear that enough. >> here she is, though, with her attack on newt and romney. >> when you're talking about taking over $100 million and when your office is on the rodeo drive of washington, d.c., which is k street, and you're taking money to influence the outcome of legislation in washington, that's the epitome of the

establishment, of the consummate insider. if you look at mitt romney as the governor of massachusetts, he's the only governor that put into place socialized medicine. no other governor did. our nominee has to stand on the stage and debate barack obama and be completely different. i led 40,000 americans to washington, d.c. to the capital to fight obama care. i didn't advocate for it. if you look at newt/romney, they were for obama care principles, if you look at newt/romney, they were for cap and trade. if you look at newt/romney, they were for the illegal immigration problem. and if you look at newt/romney, they were for the $700 billion bailout. and you just heard newt/romney is also with obama on the issue of the payroll extensions. so if you want a difference, michele bachmann is the proven conservative, it's not newt/romney. >> you throw a lot out there. >> and by the way, it was a great move on her part because

those poor guys spent the next ten minutes asaying, no, we're not. no, we're not. she makes a great point. here you have newt gingrich saying in the debate just a month or two ago, anybody that did deals with freddie mac should be thrown in jail. and yet, this man says it at the same time he knows that he made $1.6 million apologizing for freddie mac. now, david, i know you and i would disagree on freddie and fannie and their impact on what happened with the meltdown. i believe -- and most conservatives i know believe that freddie and fannie are abominations and they helped lead to this meltdown, which went global. the bigger question, how does newt gingrich profit off of that while republican primary voters believe that -- >> he can't for long. >> he just brushes it aside? >> hep can't for long. this is a pattern. this is a anybody but mitt

pattern going on. we're now on newt gingrich. they may run out of candidates. newt gingrich is the howard cosell of the republican party. he looks at the camera and he wants it all ways and he's a gigantic figure in all ways. and i just don't see him connecting in the end of ends to everybody. >> well, look at the polls. really quickly, rattner. >> we'll look at the polls when herman cain was up. >> 9-9-9. >> gingrich may have caught the wave at exactly the right time. that may be the difference between him and the rest of them. >> maybe. >> and it crashes right after the primary and republicans lose 49 states. that's what we're concerned about. >> that's the plan. >> democrats should really be throwing parties all over america right now. >> you know what? >> i think the streamers are coming out the white house windows. >> paul krugman says the current situation that we're in right now is not a recession as i was

reading in the news script but a depression and makes a case for that. these are serious times. still ahead -- oh, good, we have a harvard economist coming on. democratic senator joe manchin will weigh in on the fight to win the payroll tax cut before this month's deadline. and up next, harvard economist jeff miron is here. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. wow.

it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone. [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart.

you consider both gingrich and romney unacceptable as consistent conservatives? >> well, i would say they're not consistent. i think they more or less admitted that they've changed their positions on -- it's not that they're in denial, it's just they admit they were on one side of a position here and on the other side a position on another time. i think that's pretty clearly understood. it's just that, you know, that's

not considered, you know, a litmus test. >> hey, welcome back to "morning joe." fascinating morning. chris christie, the governor of new jersey sent me a text. well, he said who's next this morning on "morning joe" to talk about the gop race? george sorros? well, we do have a small government conservative here. >> yes, we do. joining us now, jeff miron who is the author of "libertarianism" from a to z, and by the way, governor christie is more than welcome to come on any time he would like. >> so, professor, you and steve rattner were having a smackdown. >> what, what is that? >> we p wouldn't want to get in the way. >> do you disagree with the conventional wisdom around our left of center desk with guests who suggest that obama, obama's

policies in 2009 actually led us to better days? >> i don't think they led us to better days. i certainly can't prove it as steve was saying earlier in the program. we don't have a counterfactual, so we don't know what would've happened. but many of the things that happened in the obama administration made things worse, not better. things were already bad and going to clearly get bad regardless of what any president had done one way or the other. >> let's talk about the bailouts, and start with t.a.r.p. george w. bush -- >> can't really blame that on obama. now, it's true, he voted it and continued it. that's a republican innovation. >> right. >> it's idiotic from the perspective of redistribution, that's the occupy wall street point. we're taking money from taxpayers giving it to big banks. the claim it is kept the economy from going over the cliff. i don't think that's right. i don't think there's evidence to support that. lehman doesn't show that because things were not didn't go off the cliff right after lehman.

yeah, stock prices went down, that's no big deal, they were all over the place. >> whoa, whoa, whoa -- >> steve rattner -- >> things did go off the cliff after lehman. remember, the -- they broke the buck on the money markets fund, aig was suddenly -- needed to put all of these billions of collateral. the whole financial system froze. no bank would lend anything to another bank for fear it was about to fail. morgan stanley was next, goldman sachs was not far behind. this was george w. bush. i'm not defending barack obama yet. i'm -- >> i was going to say. what do you say of george w. bush's strongest defender at the table this morning? >> having those banks fail is not going off the cliff. insolvent institutions are supposed to fail. that's what capitalism does. >> except that we have no form -- had no form, probably still have no form of reorganization for insolvent institutions like that. >> bankruptcy is slow, painful, far from perfect, but it's better than keeping all of these institutions alive forever -- >> so meanwhile we would've had

no banking system functioning, no credit. >> we would've had small and medium size banks which would've stepped in and tried to take over business lost. we would've had some of the banks that would have to pose big losses on creditors and sold off pieces to a few banks in reasonable positions. yes, would there have been disruptions? absolutely. but do we have any evidence to show that we would've had a bigger recession? a worse recession? >> yeah, because you would have had millions of people out of work. >> we did have millions out of work. >> we would've had more. >> how do you know? >> i know. let's talk about autos. those auto companies would've ran out of money. they would have to close their doors and liquidate. >> so what? >> there was no private sector financing, there would have been 2 million jobs lost in the midwest if those companies had all melted down. >> in the short-term, and they would have gone to work for other companies. >> eventually. in the long run. in the long run, we're all dead.

>> but the tone that came out of bernanke, paulson, and the defenders, gee, we're going to have a bad recession if we don't do this. first of all, the recession was already contributing to exposing the problems of the banks and insolvency. >> they didn't say t.a.r.p. was a break the glass moment, it was somewhere you had to do something extraordinary -- and they were right. >> if you do all this stuff, things will be a little bit bad, but they'll be okay, like the 8% forecast that we got out of the cea, we not only went above 8%, we went to 10%, we're still well above 8%. they were assuming the same sort of old model -- >> let me ask you guys -- >> and the same people -- >> yesterday in the "new york times" magazine, there was an article talking about how banks and hedge funds play by different rules, that actually had hedge funds get pounded a lot more because they don't have the protection that the big banks have. and the question was posed at

the end of the piece, i forget who the author was. he said, what does that say about the system that but for government intervention, the top six banks in america would've all gone bankrupt? >> it says we have too much regulation rather than not enough. the part that was less regulated did relatively well, helped by the fact that we bailed out the regulated part. but every time we have these crises, we say we need more regulation, put more, and there's some new crisis that comes on top of it with banks evading the regulation. so there's no reason to think that what we were doing for the banks was making them less likely to have these problems, it was making them more -- >> and steve, inside, there's also a chart suitable for usa today, that showed that three banks now after too big to fail was rectified control 50% of business in america. three banks. >> look, we've had -- >> it's gotten worse. >> we've had a consolidation of

banking assets, but consolidation itself does not make it risky. i believe it's a regulatory problem. and i believe if you get rid of all of this regulation, go back to the 19th century where you had panics, booms, and busts, because there was nothing regulating the financial system or the economy. >> go ahead, quickly. >> the 19th century had all that, approximately the same degree as the system we've had since world war ii. >> that's not true. >> it is true. i'll -- the recent scholarship shows that the things that were thought of as being big recessions in the 19th century were simply mistaken -- looking at the fact that prices went down, not looking at real output went down. it did not go down dramatically. >> are we in a depression? how would you characterize it? >> a recession meaning we're still declining, we're not in one of those, but i agree with the spirit of what he's saying,

what seems to be a slower growth mode. and where the gap between where we would've expected to be based on historical trends and where we're going to be year-after-year is going to get bigger and bigger. >> on that incredibly negative note -- >> thank you so much. >> thank you for coming in. >> my pleasure. >> with your analysis. the biggest anti-government protests in decades hit russia over the weekend. what does it mean for vladimir putin's plans for a third presidential term? we'll talk about that coming up on "morning joe." progresso. it fits! fantastic! [ man ] pro-gresso they fit! okay-y... okay??? i've been eating progresso and now my favorite old jeans...fit. okay is there a woman i can talk to? [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less.

my old contacts would sometimes move and blur my vision. then my eye doctor told me about acuvue® oasys for astigmatism. he said it's the only lens of its kind designed to realign naturally with every blink so now, i'm seeing more clearly. [ male announcer ] learn more at acuvue.com. it's easy to see what subaru owners care about. that's why we created the share the love event.

get a great deal on a new subaru and $250 goes to your choice of 5 charities. with your help, we can reach $20 million dollars by the end of this, our fourth year. so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond.

but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates.

live shot, top of new york city. good morning, everyone, at 34 past the hour. pretty shot. a major rally is being planned in russia next week over allegations of election fraud in the country's parliamentary vote earlier this month. in an effort to stem the protests, president dmitry medvedev announced on facebook -- by supporters of

vladimir putin's ruling party. thousands gathered over the weekend calling for putin to step down. he's currently seeking a third term as president. saturday's demonstration was the largest anti-government protest in russia's post soviet era. and david, you take a look at this in the "new yorker." obviously this story is percolating. where is this going? >> you know, it's amazing to me. it's amazing to me to see vladimir putin after eight years as president and then another four as prime minister and almost even now with the situation pretty automatically becoming president again in march. the mood of political resignation has disappeared and middle class people, people who have benefitted by the relative stability and economics of recent times are out on the streets. 50,000 people out on the streets on saturday in moscow is an incredible thing. that hasn't been seen since the, you know, the soviet union was collapsing and i lived there.

>> what's driving it? what's the grip he had he's losing? >> there's a term now that a big blogger and opposition figure has turned. he calls united russia, which is putin's prokremlin party. he calls it the party of thieves and gangsters. and this kind of notion that something is rotten at the top, that they're being cheated. that people have no access to the rule of law, that there's no connection between people and politics has taken hold and people are disgusted. >> pull the string on that a little further, david. in that the pictures to me, we're so provincial here in this country. but it's almost as if you have an occupy the kremlin going on -- >> well, look -- >> wow. >> 50,000 people is very serious, and the costs are greater than occupy wall street. in other words, the possibility of you getting your head bashed in is even more serious than pepper spray or the occasional

beating, which is not to be sneezed at, not to be dismissed in the united states. people are taking their political -- their politics seriously in a way they hadn't before. people were really for the most part pretty removed from politics saying, okay, things are calmed down after the '90s, which were out of control in many ways and getting a little bit more. i can buy more, i can travel abroad. now that's not enough. it's no longer enough. >> so, but they're protesting against a government that has assassinated journalists for writing negative articles. do we suspect putin is going to be willing to crack down the way he would've two years ago? >> well, i spent eight days in moscow last week right up to the elections, and it's very clear that different people want different things. a number of people out on the streets because of journalists being assassinated is very few.

it's mostly about the overall sense of rottenness at the top of a system that has taken hold that allows certain things but has sucked up all the money of this system. and they will not tolerate it any more. >> it's been that way a long time. coming up next, david, thank you, chuck todd takes us inside revealing the polling from two key battle states. keep it here for more "morning joe." ♪

♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event. it's all crossed out... it's 'cause i got everything on it. boom! thank you! [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart. this was the gulf's best tourism season in years. all because so many people came to louisiana... they came to see us in florida...

make that alabama... make that mississippi. the best part of the gulf is wherever you choose... and now is a great time to discover it. this year millions of people did. we set all kinds of records. next year we're out to do even better. so come on down to louisiana... florida... alabama... mississippi. we can't wait to see you. brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home. and with my bankamericard cash rewards credit card, i love 'em even more. i earn 1% cash back everywhere, every time.

2% on groceries. 3% on gas. automatically. no hoops to jump through. that's 1% back on... [ toy robot sounds ] 2% on pumpkin pie. and apple. 3% back on 4 trips to the airport. it's as easy as 1... -2... -3... [ male announcer ] the bankamericard cash rewards card. apply online or at a bank of america near you. [ toy robot sounds ] i look fine. just a little trouble with a bargain brand cooking spray. i told you like a gajillion times to use new and improved pam. it's 70% better than that bargain stuff. see? look i gotta go. pam helps you like pull it off. hey, with us now, is political director and host of the daily rundown, chuck todd.

chuck, we don't understand. please, help us understand. not only the republican side, but the south carolina poll that i'm afraid i understand all too much. barack obama beating mitt romney and newt gingrich head to head in south carolina. boy, if you want a vote of no confidence on the entire republican field, these polls -- >> i don't know how else you see that. >> offered this vote. >> well, that feels like the president, and the understand decided voters are republican voters. to me the most important things i've learned out of the primary polls are the fact that if there's one piece of good news for romney, it's that ron paul hanging out in the race does take more votes from newt if it becomes sort of a one-on-one and romney needs all the help he can get to sort of lower the winning margin. paul, at least in south carolina seems to take more from newt than he does from romney.

and the second is, half of gingrich supporters say their top second choice is romney. >> really? >> so unlike every other rise of the antiromney. if somehow romney gets through gingrich. and frankly when you look at these numbers, right now it's hard to see how he does. but there's a lot of folks who seem to believe that gingrich will make an unforced error or two before all is said and done. but if it happens, at that point, the party will unite around romney. that is the evidence you do see. >> well, i know, that is significant, chuck, that mitt is the number two choice for most of these newt supporters. that means basically if newt loses ten, mitt gains ten in florida, and they're tied. so do you agree with the president's assessment that this is going to be a long, hard slog between mitt and newt at the end of the day? >> what's interesting is that president obama and mitt romney believe this. that's been his line the last

two or three days, hey, we're prepared for a long fight because they believe gingrich is not prepared for the long fight. and we're going to find out a lot about how well in the last few days gingrich has put together an organization one week from this week when we're the rder ballots to get on. you have to have an organization to do it. and if he can get on the virginia ballot, virginia's -- it comes after the january primaries, but it's still -- that will tell us that, okay, newt is starting to put together an operation that can go for the long haul. >> okay. so take us through some of the polls, let us know what they tell us, and also, i wonder what wonder could stop the surge that newt gingrich has right now that he hasn't already gotten under his belt. and i mean that quite seriously because i guess what i'm ultimately asking is this surge at all different than any of the

others that we've seen? the cycle of candidates? >> well, this one feels different. you have a candidate that knows how to withstand the attacks. i thought lisa myers yesterday on "meet the press" put it well. verbal combat. that is what he's good at. that's what he enjoys. and you're not going to undo him on a debate stage, right? you're not -- this isn't rick perry that romney's going after. this is a guy who can turn what you swear you're about to win a debate point and he will just talk his way out of it in an incredibly slick way sometimes. so i think that that -- that's one of why this one feels different because gingrich seems to have the ability to sort of take the heat, if you will. but the other thing that is a problem for romney in these polls. and we saw similar thing last week in iowa and new hampshire, and we're seeing it again. joe, 70% of republican voters in south carolina and florida was almost -- it was identical.

describe themselves as conservative. 51% of those folks say mitt romney's a moderate, 56% of those republicans in florida say mitt romney's a moderate. going through what we went through in 2010, find me the evidence that right now where the republican party is today that a moderate can win a republican primary. it is very difficult -- moder e moderates used to win a lot. they'd figure out a way in, use the electability argument. it's really hard if you become the self-identified moderate, if you're viewed as that, that's hard to win a primary i would argue in today's republican primary. >> "morning joe" self-identified moderate. jon meacham is here and has a question. >> when you look back four years into december of '07 and you think about the numbers, huckabee, mccain, romney, what do you think those numbers -- how were those numbers bourn out? do you think there's a big shift

ahead? >> well, at this point in time, huckabee was on the move, romney was panicking in iowa. and i remember joking at the time i felt like almost the media was willing mccain back into this race. mccain was just going and you were starting to see movement in new hampshire. so you were -- you know, what you saw in december ended up kind of playing itself out. but it's funny that you bring up '07, jon, because i -- you know this morning you wake up and see what's going on with mitt romney and you see they're going to throw out more paper, put out more attacks against gingrich today. there's something about watching romney today that feels like hillary '07, that the entire -- you know, that for some reason the democratic party didn't want to go the hillary way. they were just looking for any other way to go and there was obviously a big chunk of the party just taken by obama. what's going on in the republican party today and to me we saw it at the debate.

they don't want the sobriety that mitt romney is selling. they want -- >> okay. >> the democrats had barack obama, the republicans have somebody from the mid-'90s who was rejected by the likes of you and a hell of a lot more other people. i don't know where the republicans are going if not to romney. i just cannot conceive of them -- >> i wouldn't disagree with that. it doesn't make sense. >> this is barry goldwater in 1965, potentially. >> a brokered convention -- >> actually, actually -- >> that's -- >> we turn that corner, let's say you turn the corner after florida and newt's won 3 out of 4, i don't know a lot of things, but i do know the republican party, and i know that the republican party -- a lot of phone calls will be made and people are going to try to figure out how to -- >> and the money comes in. >> and the money comes in to destroy newt gingrich. and with the ability now, chuck,

we've got to go, but the ability to have these super packs. if newt gets too far ahead, he is going to be savaged from all sides because republicans know a gingrich victory spells doom in the poll. >> joe, were you as shocked as i was, though, that lindsey graham basically said he'd be okay if newt's the nominee? >> well, nothing lindsey says surprises me -- lindsey, actually, if you look at lindsey ideologically like newt you never know where lindsey's going to fall from one day to the next. he's about the only one that served in my class that has anything nice to say about newt. >> thank you, we'll see you in a bit on the "rundown" after "morning joe." up next, football frenzy with roger bennett straight ahead on "morning joe."

[ male announcer ] you are a business pro. lord of the carry-on. sovereign of the security line. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go.

you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i deserve this. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. usa prime credit... this peggy... hi, i'm cashing in my points... peggy? no more points - coupons now. coupons? coupons. coupons? next, you convert coupons to tokens. tokens? then you trade tokens for credits. and then i get the cash? then you call back. bye bye. peggy? hello? what just happened? want rewards that make sense? switch to discover. america's #1 cash rewards program. it pays to discover.

with us now is espn soccer analyst and now, yes, the truth is out. my partner, roger bennett. so real madrid, it looked like this was their year. >> absolutely. >> things changed. >> 500 million people globally watching this game between the national symbol of spain, real

madrid and national symbol of capitalism, barcelona, and they scored after 21 seconds. karim, with an uncharacteristically sloppy barcelona. sometimes you can score too early. here's alessi from super cut slipping around the ball home. barcelona scored three times. the third, danny alves, a perfect one for fabergast. they are rumored to be the greatest team to ever play soccer together. they're also tiny, watching them like torment like angry wasps. it's kind of a victory for the every man. >> no doubt about it. and speaking of fabregas, his former team wins again.

arsenal. celebrating the 125th anniversary. they have the everton football club come to town expect they're playing against everton and this is like the salvation army thrift store. no disgrace to go down to a goal like this. >> absolutely crouching tiger, hidden dragon kind of goal. look at this. >> not so long ago arsenal's coach was on his way out and now this team is making a charge. they just keep winning. >> they're a schizophrenic team. it was a massive change. it was owned by an american. we don't often talk about with the missouri-based hedge fund and he brought in a new coach, martin o'neal and he says he wants his team to play like them and you can say some things that don't necessarily happen. they went down 1-0 and then this

happened with five minutes to go. >> that was a fascinating choice. >> is that a british name? >> he's a role model for english youth. >> sunderland will be several hangovers in that soccer match. there he is, a rare soccer manager, martin o'neal. chelsea take on manchester city. espn2 at 2:00. old money against new money. >> and who wins that one? >> i think sport wins at the end of the day, but i have manchester city. >> thank you. >> you seem very disturbed. >> i thought he said alexander hamilton. >> all three of us are often mistaken for each other, me, george, and alexander. >> joe manchin will be on set, "morning joe" back in a moment. wow.

it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak. i'll just leave you two alone. [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys,

electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart. the pioneers. the aviators. building superhighways in an unknown sky. their safety systems built of brain and heart, transforming strange names from tall tales into pictures on postcards home. and the ones who followed them, who skimmed the edge of space, the edge of heaven, the edge of dreams. and we follow them up there to live by an unbreakable promise, stitched into every uniform of every captain who takes their command:

to fly. to serve.

look, we've been through an incredibly difficult time in this country, and i wouldn't be surprised if the american people felt satisfied right now. they shouldn't feel satisfied. we've got a lot more work to do in order to get this country and the economy moving in a way that benefits everybody as opposed to

just a few. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city on this monday morning. welcome back to "morning joe" and back with us on set we have mike barnacle, john meechum and steve rattner. president obama's campaign for re-election made an appearance on "60 minutes" where a new cbs poll is pointing to what could be a difficult road ahead for the president. according to the poll 41% of americans believe barack obama deserves to be reelected as 75% say the the country is headed in the right direction. these are tough numbers. more troubling for the president. 49% believe it's not prevented a greater recession. that includes 50% of independence. but in an interview in "60 minutes" the president defended his campaign promises to take on big problems like the economy while challenging business as

usual in washington, d.c.. >> i didn't over promise, and i didn't underestimate how tough this was going to be. i always believed that this was a long-term project, that reversing a culture here in washington dominated by special interests would take more than a year. it would take more than two years. it would take more than one term. it probably takes more than one president. >> president obama also weighed in on the current field of republican candidates running for president. >> if i can't get republicans to move partly because they've made a mrit wipolitical, strategic decision to say anything that obama's for or against because that's the best way of winning an election, but keep in mind, i'm talking about republican members of congress pp i'm not

talking about republicans around the country. if you take my name out of it and just look at the ideas that we're presenting. these are common sense, maybe stream ideas that republicans in the past have supported. >> the president says he believes front runners newt gingrich and mitt romney will be, quote, going at it for a while. obama also spoke about his responsibility to find solutions to america's problems while placing the blame on republicans for what seems like unending gridlock in washington. >> it doesn't really matter who the nominee is going to be. the core philosophy they're expressing is the same and the contrast of visions between where i want to take the country and where they say they want to take the country is going to be stark. >> mike, what was your take on the president last night? >> you know, my take on it was he's sort of -- not grasping.

grasping n' isn't the right wor. whether it's doing something by executive order. he's trying to -- he's trying to get to a point where he feels, here. here's the difference. i propose this, they said no. >> partially, no. parts of it, no. he seemed hesitating in a couple of segments there to a couple of questions. he seemed hesitant and sort of paused a little too long. >> there was one particular moment, john, they thought was really telling, and it suggests that this president is still shaped by the remarkable recession of 2008 was when heed to steve kroft, well, you know, republicans agree with me and then steve said but you have a 7% approval rating among republicans and he looked jarred, and you could see his mind working through that.

it's as if he does not -- he still can't grasp how far this country has moved away over the past three years. >> i think that's right. i think he operates like all of us, on two speeds, but his intellectual and analytical gear is where he spends most of his time, and i think that in an odd way, recognizing the 7% number, recognizing what i continue to believe to be a fundamental failure to establish during an emotional connection to people is something that if you're a politician it's such a system failure that one would have a hard time. >> here's the thing, though. steve radner, there is a systemic failure in washington, d.c. you look at right track, wrong track and you look at barack obama's numbers that steve put out there last night, they're

just horrific one year out and yet, of all of the polls that have bombarded us over the past month, i saw one this weekend that just made me stop and say oh, my god, and it was the nbc news, marrist poll taken in south carolina, not newt stomping mitt. that's the story now and that will be the story for a while, is we'll have a general election matchup between barack obama and newt gingrich and then barack obama and mitt romney. obama beat both of them. in south carolina, a state that has not gone democratic, how long, alex? since jimmy carter in 1976 and before that you'd have to go all of the way back to john kennedy in 1960. this is stunning.

stunning. how it's not just newt gingrich that americans are going to reject. it looks like mitt romney and the whole republican field right now is just not acceptable to mainstream americans. >> i don't know that we know the answer to that yet. i still think that particularly if it's romney the president will have a very tough race, but to the earlier conversation, i think there are two problems the president is trying to overcome as he does these kinds of interviews. i don't think he tries his narrative. he tries out different storylines and different ways to describe what he's doing, the speech, and i thought last night was a slightly different take on it. here's his really big problem. he's trying to prove a counter factual. he's trying to prove that if he hadn't done all of the things he did the country would be much worse off, and as you saw in the slides earlier, the country

doesn't necessarily believe that. in watching the interview and just thinking about it right now he's got this issue to, i think, he has remarkable gifts. he's eloquent, he's convincing and clearly very smart. he wins the presidency in 2008, overcoming all sorts of doubts and surpassing a field full of true, true candidate, hillary clinton being the most prominent and now he's in the white house and he has very little legislative experience, very little washington experience because he's been out in the road campaigning, and i think he is stunned giving his gifts and his inability to get anything really done in congress. i think he's stunned by it. >> but he doesn't look at it as his inability.

>> those who are fortunate enough to work with him are not helping him pass legislation to make history. >> i think it's -- >> if you think about it from a biographically point of view, it's his thinking and the system, and the country is not commensurate with his gifts. that's a harsh thing to say, but i have a feeling that in the dark night in his soul that's what he feels. i think he feels this is the 18th century, constitutional republican that needs significant updating. i think he sees reflexive opposition with a culture that he helped build he sees all of us as another huge stumbling block. >> think you all are simply brilliant, he's developed a relationship with him. he's comfortable with him. he was honest. he was tired and realistic about exactly where we stand right now and i think we're not used to that. we're used to seeing a game and a fight which you can find in

the republican side and which you can find over the weekend and that's yet narrative that you don't think he's found, i think he nailed it in kansas and incoming inequality being the refining issue of our time, that is the message and hard work that people have put in that is not paying off. that's a message that's going to carry the democratic party and if you look at the republican field, i don't see any other way. i don't see a republican who will galvanize this country and say we want a republican back in office. >> mika, i don't think that's the defining issue of our time. >> oh i would totally disagree. >> the defining issue of our time is jobs. >> yeah, and it all plays into that. what is he saying that's not the same thing. >> i think income inequality is a real threat to this country. >> i would say it's the same thing. >> people can't get jobs. >> if barack obama can convince the american people that he knows how to get america back to

work, i think he'll be reelected. i don't know. do you think that the guy that was on tv last night would give americans that confidence? i don't think he did a bad job. >> he gave me a lot more confidence than the guys who were on tv saturday night. >> you want to go there? >> let's go there. sorry, guys. the latest nbc news marist poll shows him topping 42% among likely primary voters. that was up 35 points from last month and mitt romney is in a distant second. >> i call that a surge. >> 15%. >> that is not a surge. that's secretariat coming down at this stretch of the belmont. >> i want you to think about that when you pontificate the president's weaknesses for 15 minutes, seriously. look at this. >> wait, wait, wait, hold on a second, mica, we have been

pontificating for 15 weeks. i mean, come on. this is the first time we talk about the president in 15 weeks? this is offensive. we can't pick it apart. >> we didn't pick it apart. >> what would you like us to do? just bow down to it? >> like what the president is doing in south carolina. as a political mraert, the cleveland question, october 28, 1980. are you better off than you were four years ago. the problem, the tragedy. the classic tragedy of this is to go to steve's point is that we are not as worse off as we would have been had he not been president. that is too many conditional -- >> perfect. >> but historically, if you're looking at barack obama he still stands a huge chance of being seen as a great president from what we understand, his first six months. >> wait, wait, wait.

>> it's not six months right now. >> the counter argument and this is the argument that we'll have is peggy newman's argument, he made things worse and what we're going to do is we're going to hear people talking about how business owners and they have been frozen on the sidelines. small business owners, large business owners, corporations, their money's frozen on the sidelines because this president has put too many question marks over the economy and, yes, we start with a health care plan. so there's going to be that argument and i think the president can actually make the argument steve's making even stronger which i made and he could be more forceful with that even though i disagree with that. >> newt gingrich is also ahead in florida. he's at 44%. he's gained 38 percentage points in the last day. mitt romney is 15 points behind him in my home state. wow! >> what is going? >> and in the first debate since

he leapt to the front he took aim at the former house speaker from everything from his political record to list personal life. everybody was pounding away at gingrich and, you know, mitt romney even tried to paint gingrich as a career politician. he talked about how he worked in the private sector and along with every other attack, newt not only brushed this one off, but seemed to gain strength on it. take a listen. >> let's be candid. the only reason you didn't become a career politician is because you lost to kennedy in 1994. >> if i beat kennedy i could have been a career politician. >> if i had been in the nfl i would have been a football star all my life. >> gingrich, even on the personal attacks, gingrich was pretty darn good at brushing those off. mike barnacle, you want to make a $10,000 bet on rick perry.

sometimes these things are over played and over talked about and over analyzed and other times george bush looking at his watch in the middle of the debate and bill clinton says hi, the guy didn't want to be here. let's run the sound bite for those who were fortunate enough to not have to watch the debate this weekend. >> i'm hearing you say all of the right things and i read your first book and it said in there that your mandate in massachusetts which shouldn't be the model for the country, and i know it came out of the reprint in the book, but i'm just saying, you're for individual mandates, my friend. >> you know what? you raised that before, rick and you're wrong. >> it was true then, it's true now. >> i'll tell you what. 10,000 bucks? $10,000 bet? >> i'm not in the betting business. >> oh, okay. >> okay. so what do you think? >> rick perry, the guy who was

talking about this weekend, all of the money that barack obama gave to the nation of solyndra, but go ahead. >> i -- i -- you know, they can try, but i don't think that -- i don't think that balloon stays up for a long time. >> everybody else agree? >> agree. i thinked underlying, as senator mccain would say the underlying fundamentals of the romney issues are still there. >> it's a piece of the romney era, really. it's not a good piece of the romney narrative and it can't come at the final moment. >> if you watched the debates and you think back to the president in his speech earlier, last week, he has the issue that resonates out there and it's not whatever you want to phrase it. income, redistribution. >> disparity. it's fairness. fairness is the issue and he has that issue. >> up next, we'll bring in senator joe manchin.

also this hour, he was the dominant voice of sports casting for ten years. now a new biography sheds light on the legend howard cosell. but first -- not so much a legend. >> not even close. >> the legendary -- >> bill? >> yes. well done. good morning, everyone. i hope you had a wonderful weekend. temperatures continue to be the only story on the map unless you're joining us in southern california. that's where the storm will linger and also rain in georgia, but what are the themes going through this december? it's the lack of snow. we haven't had big snowstorms to talk about, if any and temperatures are pretty warm and minneapolis is warm to start your morning. you'll have a nice afternoon there. areas of new england, it's been a cold start to your morning, but the sun is up and it's warming things up. pretty nice day from new york to boston, hartford to southeast.

still chilly in dallas and it's been chilly in the last four or five days and we're continuing to watch that rain down in southern california. we'll get some significant snow in arizona and new mexico in the days ahead. one area, enjoying the nice warm-up in st. louis. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

sglie didn't over promise, and i didn't underestimate how tough this was going to be. i always believed that this was

a long-term project. that reversing here a culture in washington dominated by special interest, it will take more than a year, and it will take more than two years. it will take more than one term, and it probably takes more than one president. >> joining us now democratic senator of west virginia, senator joe manchin back on the show. >> nice to be here. >> let's talk about the payroll tax cut extension because it seems to me this is sort of a losing battle for the republicans. you can argue against if you disagree, but they're against a millionaire surtax and they're turning down a tax cut for the middle class. how else do you read it? >> first of all, i don't think there's a person in washington that doesn't want to help the average working person and people are still working. >> i don't get it. >> is there a better way to do it, meek a is what it comes down to. >> yeah. here's the fdr quote.

>> we put those payroll contributions there so as to give the contributocontributors moral, political right to collection their pensions with no taxes in there. no politician can scrap my social security plan. >> that was the first time we ever paid in, and now we're saying to america you don't have to pay for this. it was never a social welfare program. it was a contribution from employer to employee, and trust that and trust the people that got us $15 trillion in debt is really going to take care of our social security. if you want to do tax credits. >> yeah. >> if you want to put money back, the bottom line with the american people -- >> so you're saying now is not the time. $15 trillion in debt to raise the social security trust fund. >> last year was the first year that we withheld 2%. 22 young ladies said you had a

2% discount. >> i haven't found anyone that said please extend. now, do you want it? >> absolutely. i want to keep getting it. >> if we fixed the tax code and made it fair. the elite that's benefited the most from the tax code today, and mica, we've talked. if we benefited the most from the tax code today the rich could pay their fair share which they're not now, would you be willing to sacrifice? absolutely. count me in. >> well, it makes sense. >> what are the odds of that happening given the track record of the last three years. never mind the last 11, 12 years. >> politics has become so visceral as far as washington. we have a hard time getting people. let me tell you right now what i can't understand. we only have one topic on the table that everyone sort of

agrees to, and it should be the template. you all have talked about it, everybody has, democrats, republicans, and 45 democrats split down the middle in the senate and we have the house that's come forward now. why doesn't our leadership and why doesn't our leaders and the senate take this template and they can put it together in bill form. we can have something we can vote on. it makes sense. >> has the president called you or anybody else and talked about his commission and said, so what do you guys think? do we move forward with this? has the president called you up and said senator, are we moving forward on taking care of this debt? >> are you surprised? >> it's not the leadership that i'm used to. >> as governor, did you do this? >> as governor -- i'd wear you out. i'd find you because i was in the state senate. i was in the house and it was a

great statement and good people and everything. >> why doesn't the president -- >> i don't -- i don't know him well enough to say that. >> is he disconnected? >> i haven't had that interaction with him so i'm not going to speak to that, what i do know is if he would call and say how in west virginia, six state year in the toughest recession you had record surpluses and you were able to keep your books balanced and you were able to raise your credit rating for three straight years. how did you do it? i said mr. president, i wasn't everything to everybody, but i took care of my children. i didn't care any programs and took care of the seniors and i did everything that the values of the state really held. >> tom meechum, does this go back -- because we've all heard this complaint from republicans and democrats in congress. >> i'm not complaining. >> no, we're complaining, that the president isn't reaching out enough to capitol hill.

does this fit into your theory from last week? >> i think the president is not comfortable. there's not a whole lot of evidence that he enjoys the process of getting deals done. he tends to subcontract them and that's a clinical observation. >> don't yell at meechum. >> he's a presidential historian. >> i am an underpaid on the gingrich historian scale. i'm just -- i do think if it's that narrative, i wanted to ask the senator, everybody talks about jobs. you governed and now are senator from a state that's always had a hard time. what is the growth agenda for west virginia? what's your experience in the last couple of years and what do you see coming up? >> we have been historically under the national 9%.

we've been sixth and lower for the first time in the historical time we've been under. right now, if we have a little bit of balance and everyone thinks we're here from the state from the extraction of coal and natural gas. we want to do that and we want to do it using a new technology to do it cleaner, but we know we provide 40%, 50% of energy. just let us work. pretty soon the restrictions are on -- i've always said this. i don't believe government should be a provider and should be a partner. i've always believed that. i believe there is a social network to save those who can't save themselves, and if anyone is in a system that could contribute, that's where we find ourselves close to saying we can't take care of our own. we're not strong enough. >> he said, joe, keep yourself strong. he meant financially strong and i was concerned. really concerned. >> let's leave the executive out

of it. >> why has aren't you or a couple of other senators gone to harry reid and said we'll introduce this. we're just going to cut it up and put together a piece of legislation based on their report and introduce it. an up or down vote. the only thing i would ask is we need a little bit of help and we have all of the resources and if you can help us write this thing and put people together, we can get it going, but it will be written and we'll ask for a vote. we'll ask for 45 votes. >> why does it take so long? >> i've only been there a year. >> yeah, right. >> it seems like an eternity. i don't know why i can't -- i can't -- >> can you believe -- okay. so you've been there a year and in the time that you have been there the senate has not produced a budget, and you will hear republicans complaining. >> there's their hasn't been a

budget, produced joe, for three years. >> as a democrat, as a mover of the democratic caucus can you tell me, tell us, tell america why the democrats in the united states senate who run the senate have not produced a budget for this country in three years? >> i don't have an excuse. there's no excuse. i would have been impeached as governor. i would have been impeached. i've had to put a budget together and i had to look at it. every tuesday i got briefed and they told us exactly where we were in the revenue estimates and if i had to make adjustments for the revenue, and i had a hard time finding out. i said what do you think the revenues will be $3.7 trillion. how much money do we have? >> can you just get me an idea. i said about 2.2. i said i want a mathematician. >> i thought we were short in one-half trillion.

i'm not used to that. so i'm thinking this is different than what i'm used to so i'll have to sit back and kind of watch this. i want to contribute, and i want to help and someone said how did you do it? i said fine. >> this is elementary. this is really elementary. you spend $3.7 trillion. you bring in $2.2 trillion and yet nobody even produces a budget in three years. so -- what is your democratic leadership tell you behind closed doors in the senate as to why they refuse to submit a budget? >> let me just say the thing that i'm discouraged, not just in the democrat and in the whole process of the republican caucuses. i truly believe that what we're doing is we're taking polls, we know the same as you're taking polls where the american people stand in the day to day basis and what they're upset about, rather than taking that information. okay, by 3:00, how can you blame mike for that? >> so is the answer -- yeah, we

do that. it doesn't take that long. >> what's the answer to the question, though? what is the best excuse you get for the senate not producing -- >> i guess -- i think there would be too much for the next election. i don't know. i don't think just to go along with that. i'm pretty independent, as you know. i want this president to succeed. if you're an american, you want your president to do well. i don't care if you like him or not and if they do well my state of west virginia will do well. if they don't, we're in trouble and right now west virginia is evaluating the last three years and it hasn't been as good as they would like it to be. >> you're the rarest thing in american politics. you're a conservative democrat. will you die a democrat? >> i am. i watched my grandmother, i'm a democrat when things were tough and people were down and out, my grandmother brought in and fed

them and took care of them and my grandfather, was there no social net. it was mama and papa. i watched it, so i know who i am. they say hey, pop, can i borrow $3. he said sure. here's a shovel, go out and clean the parking lot. i watched human nature and i'm thinking will we start making something again? will we start building something? will we keep the money offshore and not pay anything or millionaires and billionaires say hey, the secretary pays more percentage than i do. that's not america, but with that being said, as a democrat, we have work, too. too many people are waiting on a check. they're waiting on someone to give them something. they're not mad at what you have. they're thinking how did joe get that? maybe i can get a check, too. >> senator manchin, thank you very much. good to have you back on the

show. >> thank you all. >> we need more governors like you. >> next, with all eyes on the euro debt crisis, brian sullivan says we shouldn't ignore what's happening in china and india. we'll explain when we come back. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation,

so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. [ woman ] welcome to learning spanish in the car. you've got to be kidding me. yeah, this is good. vamanos. vamanos. vamanos. gracias. gracias. gracias. ♪ trece horas en el carro sin parar y no traes musica. mira entra y comprame unas papitas. [ male announcer ] get up to 795 miles per tank in the all-new passat tdi clean diesel. the 2012 motor trend car of the year. ♪

all right. it's time now for business.

>> let's get a check on business with cnbc's brian sullivan. he's live at cnbc's global headquarters. so moody's is now joining the s&p and it sounds like they're sounding a warning on europe. what does it mean? >> what it means is it's a typical monday, guys. every monday, what's the new euro threat? this is moody's coming out and basically saying hey, we'll follow up on what s&p said, the other big rating agency last week. the nasty downgrade and the credit rating of the euro zone nations and get their stuff -- that's how they put it, they're trying to get their stuff together, but it's kind of hard when everyone has a different idea of what they need to do and that's really what the situation is. >> you know, brian, on "the new york times" story on the front page, they talked like they missed the bank meltdown and they missed the meltdown at m.f. global. the more things change the more they stay the same. >> it's like football, right.

nobody likes the refs until they make a call that helpers on hurts their team. moody's been slammed over the housing and m.f. and everything else, they still control a large part of the debt market and the world debt market as to how much people will have to pay on the ratings. before i go, pay attention to china and india. i know everyone is focused on, those are the countries that are supposed to lifta all boats. don't lose sieft europe, china and india, may be the next shoes to watch. >> brian, "the wall street journal" article this weekend talked about how you're starting to see some investors betting against china. >> and money might come here, guys. i've been bullish on the u.s. for two months because it's going hurt us, but we're starting to see more capital already flow here. we're the cleanest, dirty shirt in the bag of laundry. >> thank you. >> thank you, brian.

next, howard cosell's legacy.

>> i think i'm the only black or white that's wise enough to match wits with you. >> you really believe that? >> i know that. i don't believe it, i know it. >> muhammad ali, throwing a verbal jab at the iconic sportscaster howard cosell, helped define his career. the author of "howard cosell, the man, the myth and transformation of american sports." >> how are you? >> we talked about joe frazier and how his life and career were defined so much by muhammad ali. same goes for howard cosell. >> i think how unfortunate poor joe was to come along at that time. i mean, look what he was up

against with those two guys. he never could have broken through and been on that level. it was kind of sad to me because cosell and ali were born as cultural icons at the exact same time, february 25, 1964 upon you were there. >> yeah. yeah. it was amazing. kos hell never been on tv before. he office the radio, but he made himself such a pest during that whole fight that he was one of the people who came away as a star, and by latching on to ali was a superstar and they benefitted so much from each other, exponentially, that when you saw one, you wondered where the other one was. >> cosell is obviously a sports casting legend now and transformed the vignette. at that time he was seen as a gadfly, just a sort of a pest. >> he could not get on the tv

side, even though arledge, the president of abc sports came around and loved him and thought he could be the face and the voice of the whole sports setup there. the burgeoning sports setup and couldn't get on television. >> why? why? >> for many reasons because there was antisemitism at that time. >> that was one side of it, but also howard cosell broke the -- the horrible toupee and he talked like this. this was not a guy. it takes a rune arledge to look that the guy and say he was the only one that would say he's going to be a star. >> he knew. >> arledge was a nobody when it came to abc sports and he got to establish his bona fides, too. they trusted cosell to do that kind of a reporting job and he was brilliant. >> cosell was a one-trick pony and a lot of people would have

their right with muhammad ali, but if you want to look at how howard cosell changed sports, you have to look at monday night football. >> cosell, dandy dime and frank, holy cow! >> oh, yeah. >> and cosell was the straw, baby. he was the straw. >> how much of what we saw on monday night football or calling a fight was real howard cosell? how much of it was an act? he made people angry all of the time. that was him? >> that was him before he even became famous. when he was at nyu law school, a brilliant student. he used to look down at people then, too and he used to have these soirees and he would very impeerious and he would insult anyone. that's the way he was. the one great thing about him is that he never compromised. he was annoying. he was irritating and he was loud and obnoxious, but he never

compromised to become mainstream, ever, ever. >> a lot of us remember december 8, 1980, it was howard cosell who told a lot of americans that john lennon had been shot dead. >> told me. >> yeah. >> that should tell you how different the times were. people don't realize now with this explosion of sports all of the time, 24-hour highlights, you could not see highlights from the the sunday games unless you tuned into monday night football at halftime. >> that's right. >> it's what you waited for all weekend. >> if your team wasn't in the package you would be very upset and you would write nasty letters to abc, cosell was trying to hurt your team. that's how outsized your program was. everyone had three networks and the lennon thing, that was the only network that was live in prime time. >> how ironic for a guy that was as progressive as howard cosell.

a product of -- i would say, east coast liberalism that he fell the way he did with something that just slipped off the end of his tongue. >> when he was being cosell. i mean, when he was just doing the job that he there was to do and he was brilliant, such as down goes frazier, three little words, repeated twice that just last in history forever, but when he was playing the role of howard which started with monday night football, that was the caricature. before that, what we knew him for was ali and mexico city, forgetting the black power demonstration. after that we knew him for shtick with don per death and being on the odd couple and woody allen movies. what kind of relationship did he have with the players? >> he had great relationships with athletes. i think he interviewed more star athletes than any man alive

because he was the man you'd flock to. at the beginning because he was the only tv guy and it was a satisfy sports writers. those guys owned the locker rooms. they owned the field and the press room. cosell, here he emerges and it's like parting the red sea. all of a sudden, this one guy from television is dominating the scene which the sports writers hated and that's why there were so many feuds with cosell and sports writers through the year. once he established himself, he could dial up any athlete or any star, frank, dean, sammy and anybody could come on the show. he that was well connected. >> very quickly. now we're rung short on time, but ink it is so fascinating, his relationship with his wife. he was at war with everybody else, but he and his wife had a remarkable, loving relationship. >> good that you notice that because in the midst of all of this clutter thshgs luster, was there a love story that he had

with emmy. the only emmy he said he never need because tv never gave him one until he was dead. it was a love story. they were so opposite. jewish, non-jewish, rich, non-rich. they were married for 50 years. she was the only one that could ever control him and keep him from making a spectacle from himself, she didn't keep him from drinking. she became the same way. she was a heavy drinker and heavy smoker and together they sort of declined and when she died in 1991 it was the end for him, he went on for four years, but as a shell. >> thanks so much. it's "howard cosell, the man, the myth and transformation of american sports." thanks for being here. >> my pleasure. >> you can get an excerpt on our blog, mojo.com. more "morning joe" in a moment. [ mom ] scooter? your father loves your new progresso rich & hearty steak burger soup. [ dad ] i love this new soup. it's his two favorite things in one...

burgers and soup. did you hear him honey? burgers and soup. love you. they're cute. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. nyqui tylenol: me, too. and cougnasal congestion.ers? nyquil:what? tissue box (whispering): he said nasal congestion... nyquil: i heard him. anncr vo: tylenol cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion... nyquil cold & flu doesn't. the new spark card from capital one. spark miles gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. the spark card earns double miles... so we really had to up our game. with spark, the boss earns double miles on every purchase, every day. that's setting the bar pretty high. owning my own business has never been more rewarding. coming through! [ male announcer ] introducing spark the small business credit cards from capital one. get more by choosing unlimited double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? real, objective investing help? that's a little harder to find. but here's what i know --

td ameritrade doesn't manage mutual funds... or underwrite stocks and bonds. or even publish their own research. so, guidance from td ameritrade isn't about their priorities. it's about mine. straightforward guidance. that's what makes td ameritrade different. ♪ [ male announcer ] trade commission-free for 60 days. plus get up to $600 when you open an account. it's all crossed out... it's 'cause i got everything on it. boom! thank you! [ male announcer ] the big christmas event is here. starting 8 a.m. saturday. with great deals on toys, electronics and more... the only place to go for last minute gifts is walmart. [ female announcer ] we never forget

the nearly 12 million cancer survivors in america today... and the countless lives lost. we owe it to them to protect funding for cancer research, prevention and access to care. and give millions of americans what they need most.

captain rogers, what's your take on the events of last wednesday. >> it was awful. that's why it was very important for me to come here tonight and on behalf on everyone of american airlines issue an apology to mr. alec baldwin. >> alec, are you sure this is the right way to handle this? >> yeah. keep going. keep going. >> didn't alec baldwin getting

kicked off delay take off? >> it did. it was the first time that our flights were delayed. come on, seth. how dare we speak ill of the great alec baldwin and we can't even take off on time. >> it was also reported that alec baldwin slammed the bathroom door so loudly that you could hear it in the cockpit. >> words with friends can be frustrating and i just started to play again myself, but when you're about to play jailers off someone's quiche and then you realize you don't have the eye. let me tell you, that would make you slam the bathroom door, too! >> i'm meteorologist bill karins with your business travel forecast. pretty good business travel today. just some rain in the southeast, if you're traveling in phoenix

or los angeles, you have to deal with rain and gusty wind. nice in new england today. there are the showers in atlanta, detroit and chicago, no problem. as we mentioned, in areas southwest are dealing with a storm. you know organization is key... and so is having a trusted assistant. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above and still pay the mid-size price. here we are... [ male announcer ] and there you go, business pro. there you go. go national. go like a pro. ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people

are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event.

welcome back to "morning joe." >> it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned if i were the president of the united states i would call joe manchin to come down to the white house. >> no doubt about it. what did you learn, mike? >> i learned that roger bennett has the ability to stagger me by telling me that one soccer player is pleasuring -- >> it has to be a british thing. >> the one-off color thing. >> what i learned from brian sullivan from cnbc, and i think he's right. >> yes? >> that america remains the cleanest, dirty shirt in a bag of laundry, and i