tight shift. why, are you having problems with your e? >> i was earlier today. >> dylan, you look magnificent. as i look at you, you look magnificent. although i do prefer you to have your hair slightly shorter. >> really? >> i do. i think it's growing a little bit too long. >> you said that to me recently, and i'm not sure i'd go with that. >> like a parisian poet? >> it's your choice. >> i think my show starts now, if you don't mind. the big story today, good afternoon to you, i am dylan ratigan, and if you are not aware, millennials, americans, are our next generation. they are america's 18 to 29-year-olds. they are the one who is will pay the most for the decisions we make today and have made in the past and they are the ones strapped in student loan debt.

they are the ones fighting our wars in the middle east, struggling to find a job. it's no wonder that a new web survey by harvard's institute of politics shows that they are also overwhelmingly disenfranchised by an electoral system that does not hear or represent them. three quarters cite jobs and the economy as their biggest concern. that is not a surprise. more than half fear that our country is on the wrong track, making us wonder what the other half are thinking. despite those figures, only 2% of the millennials have joined the occupy movement. you might expect that number to be higher. we here at "the d.r. show" were certainly surprised by how small that is, but it does offer opportunity for growth. and even with all this discontent about the state of our country, this generation may well get drowned out in 2012, because they refused to get involved, even if it is for a candidate that they support, facing an electoral system where 94% of the time, the person who

raises the money wins anyway. after a third -- about a third says they'll take the small step of putting a sticker on their car or a sign in their yard. 30% said they'd attend a rally. only 20% of those on twitter say they care enough to follow their candidate on twitter. maybe that's because nearly half of them choose a candidate that is none of the above. john del avolpe is the pollster. and john, i'll begin with you. it appears that the young people recognize that the electoral system is a gerrymandered system, that is purchased at auction, and until they are given the none of the above option to reject all of the incumbents dependent on that system, they seem rather accurately disenfranchised when you look at the data and

dysfunction in what's supposed to be a democracy, but what's become an auction. >> they're clearly disenfranchised, dylan. and thanks for having me. we've been studying this generation for a decade now. and there's two things that we want to express. one is they are the disenfranchises with politics and washington at the moment. however, the great thing about this generation is the largest generation in the history of america is not disenfranchised about their community and their country. they are actively engaged president. not necessarily in politics at the moment, but engaged in helping their neighbor and making the community better. >> natalia win look at this survey, and it makes me think the millennials are smarter than i gave them credit for. they're seeing te electoral system is not a tool to measure their opinions. and it is upon them, their responsibility, to enlist with the other members in their community to worry about taking care of each other, because it

is quite obvious that the federal government is a purchased asset for the benefit of the wealthiest interests in this country. >> absolutely, dylan. and thanks again for having me on. the 2010 poll, actually, that i read from the institute on politics mentioned, and also i believe this study did as well, that students and college-aged millennials would much rather do public support or giving back to their community than running for political office or being engaged politically. so we already see this shift that students want to be engaged, but not necessarily in politics. and like you said before, we're really disenfranchised with the two-party system. and we also saw an increase in independents in the study, which to me clearly suggests not poll data that we are no longer supporting two parties with no real choices that are in touch with us as millennials. obama had our support in 2008

and he completely dropped the ball in the last three years. >> it's interesting, though, john, to get the insight. people look at this and say, oh, the kids don't care, they're not paying attention. but when you really look at this survey, it suggests that the millennials may be the most engaged generation we've ever had. they're just smart enough to know that that energy needs to be directed where it can can have an impact in their community as opposed to being sucked into the few tilt of the pro wrestling and rigged electoral process that's been built for them. >> throughout the decades of the 2000s, dylan, we saw election after election after election, literally, the youth vote become more active and more engaged in the political process with a terrific result. it was young people in iowa who nominated barack obama over hillary clinton in iowa. and they went on to elect him president a few months after that. they were -- they're an incredible force, when banded together, can create great change. both in this country and around the world. at this point, though, they're taking a little bit of a time out.

they're concerned about the direction of the country. as we see, only 1 in 10, 1 in 12, 12% of young people think we're headed in the right direction. it's time take a pause. >> it's interesting, natalia, you really couldn't come up with two more different presidents bip personality, by campaign type, by identity than george w. bush and barack obama. so there's a sort of false choice. people feel like, oh, we've made this huge choice. we've gotten rid of george bush and now we have this totally amazing deferent president that's barack obama, only to witness both presidents, first george bush and then barack obama, supervised the assemblage of the largest, most extracted banking system in the history of the world, to perpetuate these wars. to perpetuate health insurance mow nnopol monopolies. to perpetuate all these things. which means basically, it would seem, you have these two very different people giving you the

same results, it must mean something else is going on, which is why we end up back at the auction of all these men. >> well, to quote reagan, it's the economy, stupid. we still haven't seen an influx of jobs coming to our country, and it's definitely affecting young people. in this recent study, 70 to 75% of millennials feel that the economy is the number one issue. so even though we might have only 2% supporting ows, i feel that with the economy being the top issue, ows has infiltrated the connesciousness of the millennials. >> john? >> the first focus group i conducted on this subject back about a decade ago, i asked folks why they weren't going to vote in the 2000 election. they said, it doesn't matter which way i vote, it's going to be an old white person that i elect. it's not going to be a change, not a difference between either one of those parties. and i fear we're essentially in the same spot ten years later. >> but i talked to a psychologist about the impact of

making someone believe that they are having an opportunity to choose a different path, as we sort of lead our children to believe in our own countrymen, only to betray that trust again and again is very destructive to the trust of any group or society. >> yeah, i'm concerned. because this generation, as i said, is special. they're highly creative and passionate. they're out volunteering. which is far more important than actually voting on election day. so my concern is they're disconnected from government for a while and that's not good for anybody. >> we'll wrap this up. natalia, was that the airport behind you or something? >> yeah, something like that. >> what was that? that was an announcement of some kind. anyway, we'll follow their instructions, in case it's a fire alarm or something, we don't want you to get hurt. john, thank you for the latest information. natalia, always a pleasure to see you. we'll take a break here. coming up on "the d.r. show," our troops, our

countrymen right now heading home for the holidays. will anyone step up and admit and form the compassion necessary to admit that iraq was potentially one of the biggest foreign policy fiascos in american history and we have an obligation to these veterans to give them a great crusade in the years ahead that will help all of us. the mega panel weighs in. plus, a mad as hell special report, if corporations are now the same as people, why don't they get punished the way people do too. and swedish meatball lovers, ikea's futuristic plan to build a whole neighborhood, revealed in a little bit. my doctor told me calcium is best absorbed in small continuous amounts. only one calcium supplement does that in one daily dose. citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs.

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well, the seasons, they are changing in washington, d.c., and unfortunately, it is the same old song and dance on capitol hill with the government pretending to be on the brink of a shutdown for a third time, creating all sorts of political wrangling for the election season, to talk about how stupid the other guy is. the one thing congress is able to agree on is to kick the can down the road until next week, so they don't actually shut the government down. then there's the ongoing fight over extending the payroll tax cut and unemployment benefits that both run out at the end of the month. now, mind you, these sorts of benefits are yet another band-aid to plug a massive hole in our bucket, while washington refuses to plug the hole, which is, of course, dysfunctional trade, tax, and banking policies that encourage money to leave our nation when we desperately need it to be invested in our nation.

still, these programs, these unemployment benefits are band-aids that millions of bleeding americans need, those who are the most vulnerable among our communities. and our next guest is a republican congressman, david schweikert, out of arizona. congressman, it's a pleasure to see you. i want to begin on something that i know that we agree to, because we've talked about this on a number of occasions, which is how can we be asked to continue to do these stopgap measures when we refuse to address the reason we have to do it, like reforms in the tax code. and i would like for you to connect the dots for us between what you see as the flaws in the tax code and really money in politics, purchasing those loopholes in our tax code, and the lack of jobs and investment in this country. >> and dylan, that's one of the things you and i -- sorry, i was hoping to be in new york to spend some time with you, so you and i could talk about this. the fact of the matter is you have a tax code that literally is designed by lobbyists. but the reality, it's lobbyists from all stripes. everything from, you know,

special tax breaks for fossil fuels to special tax breaks for green energy. it cuts across the board. but what it does is it creates sort of a perversity of where capital flows. instead, you have government choosing winners and losers instead of the efficiency of the market choosing where that capital should go. >> let's be honest, you don't even have the government picking winners and losers, you have the government accepting money at auction on behalf of private interests who might be threatened in some way to acquire special benefits for a private industry by purchasing the government. i want you to take a listen to david k. johnston on taxes. we'll keep going. but listen to this, though. >> we have a tax policy that encourages people to put money outside the u.s. and to invest it in ways that are not productive, because people are looking to get immediate, quick returns. so they're buying financial products and speculation rather than things that attention time to return, investing in ideas, factories, software development, things like that. >> your thoughts?

>> david's absolutely right. but it's a little more complicated. there's more to it. we have people investing in other places, both because of the the tax policy and regulatory policy, but you also have the visibility problem in this country. let's say you and i get together and we build a manufacturing facility here in the midwest. what's our tax and regulatory environment going to be in the united states five years from now? we have become less stable than other places around the country, when it comes to tax policy and when it comes to that regulatory policy. >> so, i will agree with you that there is the limited visibility. here's, i guess, where i would dispute a little bit. if you look at the unadulterated chaos that the eurozone is becoming. if you look at the level of dysfunction that china has internally in its labor markets with its people, what we're looking at, really, in this country is a scenario where we are the tallest of the midgets. and that is hardly an accomplishment for a country that gave us steve jobs and walt

disney. >> unless you're the tall midget. >> even if you're the tall midget, you feel good until the next taller midget shows up. at the end of the day, how is it, and is there a way that is different than mine? because i'm saying, listen, if you don't separate business and state and have an amendment, a 28th amendment to the constitution win will never have a valid tax reform conversation, because it will always be purchased at auction. i will never have a valid trade reform conversation, never have a valid bank reform, health reform conversation, whatever it is, because it will be purchased at auction, whether it's republicans or democrats. do you see me as wrong in that? >> i don't see you as wrong. i do see you missing maybe a couple of the examples about just how frustrating it is. and we need to take an honest look. what happened within the last month? do you remember senator pat toomey, pennsylvania, during the super committee? basically put in writing on the table something that would have wiped out a lot of those special interest tax breaks. you know, the special lobbyist

carveouts. and he put it in writing, as a conservative republican. and what happened? the special interests, and i'm sorry, even the special interests on the left, crushed him. and it's one of my great frustrations. if you want a banking system that doesn't bleed us, then get rid of any perception of federal guarantees to that banking system. make them risk their own capital. you want a tax system? design a tax system that doesn't choose winners and losers and is simple to understand. >> and i guess the only barrier is we're so dysfunctional and we have no capital, we have none of those things that in order to get where you and i might say, we also have to have the compassion to understand how far from there we are, so that we can actually make those transitions. congressman, i look forward to having you in new york the next time to talk more about all of this stuff, and i thank you for coming on. >> dylan, i always enjoy it. >> likewise. thank you, sir. the all-star mega panel in the house. karen, susan, and jimmy are here. you see this time and time again. we see what guests on the show,

susan, you see it in other theaters. people happy to agree in the context of, yes, if we reform the tax code, or what david k. johnson said, we have an extracktive tax system across the board, but we never see, or are we seeing with the 28th amendment debate, the movements of these things. >> i think you should feel optimistic pant what you're doing and the amount of people who are interested in being part of that. unfortunately, when i hear these people in washington, both sides of the aisle, all i hear is wah-wah, wah-wah. and that's all the american people hear, frankly. they're so sick and tired of it. for years, we've heard, reform the tax code. why can't we get rid of all the energy subsidies? because no one's willing to get rid of that pac money and they're all afraid of making the wrong move and offending their constituency. >> but the more these things get pushed, the better it's got to

be for you with get money out. ultimately, i feel like it's great fuel for you guys. >> it's fabulous fuel for us. that's very hard to say. look, what my colleagues and i, you know, what the republicans are saying are remarkably clear. if you have money in politics, that congressman that was just on, i don't know if he's a republican or democrat. >> he's a republican. >> okay. doesn't matter, does it? because at the end of the day, that congressman went to a breakfast fund-raiser this morning, he went to a lunch fund-raiser -- >> not that he's a bad guy. >> no, he's totally doing the system. >> and it's our system! we created the system ourselves! >> but what he's going to do tonight? after this show, he's going to go to a fund-raiser. >> you don't know that. he could. >> i hope he will if he's smart. but he'll take the lobbyist's money. >> you're sitting here saying, we have a system where they have to do, and then you're going to

sit here and get all self-righteous about the fact that he's going to take money when we've created a system to do that. >> i just want him to own up to the fact that he's a part of the system. >> karen, real quick on this, and then i want to talk to you about the war. >> oh, okay. one of the problems that i have with a lot of this debate is, like we saw, i mean, the congressman who was just on, he voted for the bill with the poison pill, with keystone, because that was a party line vote, because his members wanted to be able to say, hey, i voted for that. as consumers and as voters, we need to not just listen to what they say on these television programs, we need to also be looking at where they get their money, but also, what are you accomplishing? not just what are you voting for, but what are you actually able to do? are you able to get the tax code reform? don't just tell me what you voted for, tell me what you got done. >> that's great. channeling america. your hasn't was not quite as violent and temperamental as mine was last summer, karen. that was karen's rant? >> we could do that!

>> moving on now here, at the end of the iraq war, defense secretary leon panetta in baghdad this morning for a ceremony marking the handover. that news music to the ears of three quarters of americans who wanted a full withdrawal. the president in his speech, however, yesterday, leaving out two key messages that disappointed the war veterans we spoke with. this, of course, from a president who said iraq, going back to 2002, was a bad idea and a mistake, and we shouldn't do it! and yet as president, upon completion, he never even acknowledged the misadventures and the the fiasco that this has been for the soldiers in the this war and this country. two, we've never assigned blame for what could be the biggest foreign policy fiasco ever. you're shaking your head at me, why? >> because i don't think the president of the united states, the commander in chief, should apologize when there's still -- >> who said apologize? >> basically say -- >> so in other words you would -- >> -- that we made a mistake and that this is all a big mistake,

especially while we have a war in afghanistan going on, which most people kind of think of as a similar situation. >> so is this one of those things where the preferred leadership method is just to lie? >> i don't think you tell the soldiers on the ground in afghanistan that you've wasted your time and your comrades' lives. >> this is like a family with denial, where everybody's like, daddy's an alcoholic, everybody knows daddy's an alcoholic, but they're just waiting for the president to actually say it. if you talk to the soldiers, 70% of the soldiers say this war's a fiasco and the only reason i'm going back is to prevent my friends from getting killed, karen. i would argue it makes the leadership of this country look out of touch and like they're drunk on prozac, because everybody can see what's going on. >> here's the thing, dylan. i agree with you that there's a place to have a conversation about what was screwed up, why it was screwed up. but i also think that it is important. and you talked about this the other the day on your show, in terms of the shame from vietnam. we need to also acknowledge the sacrifices our troops have made and acknowledge that they did

accomplish something. and, because, i mean, there are a lot of guys and women coming back who are saying, what did i just do that for? and i think if we -- i think we have to be careful. i don't want to diminish their sacrifice. at the same time, i agree when you two acknowledge the realities, but i think it's a very fine line. and i think at this moment, this country should, as we're coming to a close, let's put a fine point on that. let's end this. let's thank our troops for what they've gone through, and their families, and then let's look back and say, but, wait a second, we've made some mistakes here that we do not want to make again. >> you mean like we did in vietnam that we didn't want to make again? >> yeah, yeah. >> and in world war i, world war ii. >> rinse and repeat. >> this sounds like a great strategy. >> the good news about world war i and world war ii, we actually declared war. this one we didn't. by the way, it was a bs invasion and and it was a bad invasion -- >> but are you going to say, jimmy -- >> i'm not done. it's not that they're home,

it's, what are we going to do now with them? >> thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. that is the issue. >> i agree with all of that, but are you really going to look someone in the eye who lost an arm and a leg and say, what you just did was all for nothing. >> nobody's saying that. am i going to look the soldier in the eye and say, you've saved the world because we invaded iraq for weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, because we don't have the balls -- excuse me -- we don't have the balls to admit that we screwed up and we're going to take care of these kids. we'll take a break, but the panel stays. next, a reason to get money out, as if war wasn't a good enough one. our specialist argues that big money in politics is the big reason the u.s. is racking up big debt. ♪ ♪ it's nice to be here ♪ ♪ it's nice to see you [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ this is zales, the diamond store.

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all right. welcome back. take a look at my new christmas

present, from none other than susan del percio. can you get in here? it's a "get money out" jersey. can you get a reverse shot. see that? hang on, that's lately cockeyed, but you can get the point. now a reverse shot. see that? this is one of those things, now they know we're serious. see, before, when we just had a petition, a few hundred thousand people, largest nonprofit, single issue nonprofit in the world on this issue, which jimmy is involved, 13 amendments. they don't know we're -- with a ratigan jersey, now they know we've come to play. and speaking of coming to play, there's a lot to play for. it's not just about bought elections for a moment. today's specialist is here to talk about how special interest cash has increased our national debt seven-fold since the '80s. dan glickman is a visiting scholar at the bipartisan policy center. and dan, susan del percio

purchased this as a gift for me, as a holiday gift, and i'm thinking that we could sell these jerseys to help pay off the debt. do you think that that -- would that be a valuable use of our time? tell me how it is that a bought congress is expanding our national debt? >> well, you know, the fact of the matter is, the amount of money in politics was relatively rising slowly through most of the period of this country. and then in 1980s and the years afterwards, it began to increase rather dramatically. so, today, the amount of money we spend on elections is five, six, seven times more than we spent in 1980, and the amount of our debt and deficit is tracked about the exact same amount. i can tell you as a member of congress, i ran in 1976 and defeated a republican incumbent, spent about $100,000. and in 1994, i was defeated in my tenth race and about about $800,000. and today that race would cost about $2.5 million. where do you get that money? you get frit people who want things. who either want you to spend

more or tax less in certain designated areas. and in doing so, the debt has risen since in the 1980s. money in politics has increased the debt, no doubt in my mind. >> congressman, this is jimmy williams. when dylan and i started back in august the foundation called get money out. we merged with some guys -- >> some guys? found them on the street? >> no, they're really smart guys. they came to us and said, we've got to have a left/right/center coalition of folks who want to get money out of politics. you're a democrat, i'm a democrat. how do we go and get republicans to be for this issue? this is important. it's got to be bipartisan. you're the bipartisan policy center. how do we do that? >> well, first place, the public has got to demand it. they've got to know what impacts their lives. the debt and deficit doesn't happen out of the blue. it happens because interest

groups who have specific interests work the congress very well. it's perfectly legal under the system, it increases the debt, the deficit, and all the they shall things that are happening right now that we're trying to get out of. ultimately, the american people have to rise up and be outraged from this. but i think that most people in the middle sector, from the 20% to the 20%. from the democrat to the republican side, that the vast majority of people in both political parties agree with me. and that's why it's too bad that we have to pass something like simpson/bowles or something that deals with a comprehensive debt problem, but it's difficult to do that with almost every interest group wanting to preserve their little thing. >> karen? >> congressman slash secretary, it's nice to see you. so we were talking earlier about, how do you hold members accountable? we all know there's a certain system that everybody's playing by. you had to play by it as well. and you talk about voters rising up. but how do we get voters to recognize that their power is

not just rising up, but you have to vote. you have to say that, you know, what you voted for isn't enough. what you did is what matters to me. and get more people engaged in the process at a time when people seem so disengaged. >> well, i think one of the things you have to do is develop role models in our society, from the president on down, to major corporate and nonprofit leaders, faith community leaders, that send this message out that our political system is too much tied to money and the money impacts people's lives, by increasing the deficit, it's one of the reasons it's gone up. it is not an easy thing to do, but the messaging is pretty much in our society today, well, that's just the way it is, and there's nothing you can do about it. so somehow, we have to change the culture to get people to believe that it impacts them. >> well, i would argue that compared to last august, we now have 13 different constitutional amendments proposed for the 28th amendment. we have millions of dollars in a

variety of nonprofits, not the least of which that jimmy's working on over at united republic. and we've got hundreds of thousands of signatories, not just on the petitions that we're involved, but countless others, and you have to consider that to be mildly encourage welcome no? >> i think there's some progress there. but on the other hand, you have the citizens united case and you have the frenetic search for money, which is still going on. not only at the federal level, but at the state and local levels as well. so this is a problem that there's a dramatic need to deal with. because what it is, it's impacting the strength of america. our ability to solve problems, our ability to not be paralyzed as a society is in large part dependent on a sound fiscal situation in america. and the spending of campaign money impacts that rather dramatically. >> an extraordinary point, and well made. mr. glickman, a pleasure. thank you, sir. >> anytime. keep up the good work. >> before you go, just so you don't think susan del percio was playing favorites by buying a

host a jersey and leaving everybody out, which is bad group politics, as we all know, we have t-shirts from susan for everybody. we'll send one to you. >> extra large, please. >> extra large. i'm wearing an extra large. we'll get a glickman jersey out to you. anyway, karen, this one's for you. jimmy, this is basically the original "get money out" logo. >> that's our summer logo. >> this is like the original -- >> we'll have united republic t-shirt as well. >> you're the o.g.. >> susan, you can have one of your t-shirts you bought back as a gift in the spirit of re-gifting. and thank you. >> my pleasure. >> we'll take a break. we're back after this. sam: i'm sam chernin. owner of sammy's fish box.

i opened the first sammy's back in 1966.

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well, you can already eat dinner at your ikea table, watch dinner at an ikea sofa, and sleep in your ikea bed. but you may soon be able to do it all in your ikea neighborhood. they're now moving into city planning, releasing this as a design for an entire community. take a gander. the proposed 26-acre site to be built by london's olympic park would have 1,200 houses, 350 hotel rooms, shops, cafes. all of sure which are to have jam and swedish meatballs on the menu. no joke. developers say the site would be created by two waterways to create a mini-venice complete with water taxis, and yes, a floating bar. ikea has not gotten approval to do this yet, but they're hoping to start construction october 13. we have gotten ahold of the early ikea plan site. take a gander. where is it?

there it is. okay. they always make it easy, don't they? a whole city, 26 acres. there's your instructions. hopefully hose houses last a little longer than a certain bookcase i had in college. next, our exclusive "mad as hell" special report. how corporations are having their cake and eating it too. y s breaking the bank. so to save some money, i trained this team of guinea pigs to row this tiny boat. guinea pig: row...row. they generate electricity, which lets me surf the web all day. guinea pig: row...row. took me 6 months to train each one, 8 months to get the guinea pig: row...row. little chubby one to yell row! guinea pig: row...row. that's kind of strange. guinea pig: row...row. such a simple word... row. anncr: there's an easier way to save. get online. go to geico.com. get a quote. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. [ male announcer ] imagine facing the day

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well, our "mad as hell" series continues today with an exclusive special report.

corporate personhood. it is the debate that says corporations are people, and because of that, they enjoy the same rights that you and i do as natural-born humans. we see it in politics with unlimited campaign donations, opened up by citizens united. but some corporations want the best of both worlds. they want to enjoy the benefits of personhood when it comes to campaign spending, but when it comes to other legal concerns, like, say, murder, or human rights violations, they want to be protected by their corporate status against such liabilities. how convenient. need an example? look north than the supreme court docket itself. actually taking up one of the biggest and weirdest cases to come before the bench in recent years, kyoto versus royal dutch petroleum. the big question in this case, what is the correct interpretation of international law when it comes to corporate liability in suing corporations? are they treatable like people? here are the facts. a dozen nigerians claim that

royal dutch and two shell subsidiaried worked with the nigerian government to torture and kill anti-oil activists. who doesn't? but royal dutch claims they can't be sued for such things, torture and murder, because they are a corporation, not a person, baby! the second circuit court agreed, citing that no corporation has ever been held liable for human rights violations under international law. that is reserved for actual individual human beings only. and this is what has us mad as hell. big business wants to have it both ways. they're people when it benefits them to secretly purchase our government to preserve their business, but they're not people when they want to use murder as a mechanism to preserve their business. here with us, john bonafast, co-founder and director of free speech for people. and mike saks, "the huffington post's" supreme court correspondent. and mike, how do we get to this

point where the idea that corporations have political rights have come from, and how is it that we made it years past citizens united on the first -- on free speech with corporations, and yet we haven't reconciled the downside of being a person, if you will. >> good to be here, dylan. there's a 1798 statute that opened up the federal nationals issuing torts under international law. and foreign nationals can come into federal courts and say, hey, this so-and-so did this bad thing to me and i want them to pay up. now, that law doesn't specify who the defendant could be. in in a supreme court, in a 2004 case left open the question whether or not an individual or a corporation or both can be held liable under international law. >> john, let's talk about this. "the d.r. show" crack production team, and they are crack, i will say, discovered a footnote in a brief filed related to the case

we're talking about in the lead. and the footnote makes following point. it says, if a corporation wants to assert a first amendment right of expression in an election, it must be willing to accept the responsibility of getting sued. do you agree with that? and where do we stand in the reconciliation of the reciprocity of corporations as people being forced to assume the liabilities? >> well, i think that the question of whether corporations are treated as people, under the united states constitution, has to be separated from the question whether we govern corporations and the treatment of them as people under statutes. the clean air act aims corporations as persons so we can hold them accountable when they violate the clean air act. the contract laws we have throughout the country enable corporations to engage and do business via contracts, via the treatment of being people in contract terms. but in this case, 1789 statutes, a federal statute, the question really is, are corporations

trying to have it both ways? and frankly, you know, people, not corporations, shall govern in america. that's why they should not -- corporations should not be treated as people with constitutional rights, but they can and should be held accountable under federal and state laws, and this includes this act, the 1789 law. >> got it. let's do this, real simple, mike. it's going to be kind of bar barrack, but we'll do it all the same. i'm a person, i want to do a political campaign, i can do that. i want to advocate, i want to volunteer. fine. i'm a corporation, i want to do that. i can do whatever i want. i'm a person, underneath the supreme court, we've been over this a billion times. now the other side. i'm a corporation, and i'm going to potentially participate in a little bit of murder and a little bit of torture. it's not that big of a deal. we've just got to get some oil out of the ground. everybody needs to relax, okay? but i'm going to do it as a corporation. or i just happen to be sitting in my apartment in lower manhattan and i get irritated by

the people preventing me to get oil from nigeria, so i get a gun and start killing people, because i'm like, i need to get this oil. are the liabilities any different for an individual than for a country? >> that's the main question, dylan. for anything that's done here in the u.s., has jonathan was saying, corporations, for a very long time, under angelo-american law have been held equally liable for torts, contract violation, et cetera. the question is, when you go overseas and do a similar -- or not similar, but much more egregious act, such as torture, crimes against humanity, war crimes, either state actors are responsible or private individuals and corporations. now, the lower courts, three of them have held, according to american law and domestic law, that should hold. and that corporations and individuals, both natural and legal persons should be held liable for international human rights abuses. only one court, and that's the second circuit, has held otherwise. >> the big thing, obviously, for

everybody involved in enlisting in this entire undertaking, the 28 debate, learning these things, john, is for us to educate ourselves. we are a group -- we are people who are now voracious for new information so we can be better contributors to the conversations that exist around this. to both of you, quickly, where would you direct me and others to learn more about this so we have a point of view that's more beneficial to the conversation? john? >> well, we urge people to go to peoplesrightsamendment.org. congressman mcgovern has introduced a bipartisan bill with a dozen other members of congress on it. it's an amendment that would make clear that corporations are not people with constitutional rights. and you can learn more about it as peoplesrightsamendment.org. but this is really about whether we're going to restore democracy to the people. whether it's we the people or the we the operations thashl that shall rule in america. >> can you bring me the jerseys, not the t-shirts? did you see the sweet "get money

out" jersey that i have. see this, john? >> i haven't been able to see it from this newsroom, but i look forward to seeing it. >> do you have a screen? or are you staring into a black hole? >> i don't have a screen, i'm looking at a black hole, but i look forward to doing it. >> isn't it a nightmare sitting there doing tv looking into a black hole like that? you guys did a great job. thank you so much for raising the conversation and raising the bar. mike sacks out of "the huffington post," check it out today. his reporting is sensational. and john bonafast, free speech for people, amen, who wants to get money out. thank you, guys. and as "mad as hell" conversations like this may make all of us the dualism in the system, it is important for us all to remember that we are actually in the process right now of solving them, even if our government is not. and just posted on "the huffington post," our new blog about why all of us are actually optimistic heading into the new year. check it out. it's on you are way to climbing

everest. 13 amendments now in circulation. dozens of petitions. a lot farther than we were a couple months ago. coming up on "hardball," chris matthews with the latest twists and turns in the gop presidential race. if mitt can't take out newt, maybe the republican establishment will. but first, give a gift that's good for sports fans. let them watch their games, people! noah kass tells us about the therapeutic power of sports. [ female announcer ] instantly smooth wrinkles with a shot? wait a second... with olay challenge that. new regenerist wrinkle revolution... relaxes the look of wrinkles instantly, and the look of deep wrinkles in 14 days. ready, set, smooth... regenerist. from olay. try bayer advanced aspirin. it has microparticles so it enters the bloodstream fast and rushes relief to the site of your tough pain. it's proven to relieve pain twice as fast as before. bayer advanced aspirin. it's a great hd tv... shhh. don't speak.

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well, bust out the salty snacks, grab yourself a six-pack, maybe a jersey, and grab the tv remote. this weekend marks the kickoff of the college bowl season

between this saturday and january 9th, there will be some 30-plus college matchups televised for millions of fans across our fine nation. and believe it or not, tuning in may not just be fun, it might be good for you. our resident therapist, noah kass, here to explain the power of sports in america. he's a columnist for thestreet.com. justifiable entertainment, therapy? what's your logic? >> first of all, it's ball night and i'm psyched, man, just to start. my logic is first of all -- >> sorry. >> sports is like the ultimate break for me. it stops the day, i get 2 1/2 hours, 3 hours where i can concentrate on one thing, one struggle l, two teams against each other, i don't have to think about anything else. that in and of itself is unbelievably therapeutic. it's a healthy distraction. and i actually learn what teamwork actually looks like.

sometimes in the office, it goes off and on. but on the sports field, i see that a quarterback has to connect with the right wide receiver. they have to have a symbiotic relationship. and i see how that works and i see how that gels effectively. >> and how important is it to see that modeling exhibited? and then i'll add one more thing, to see a game that has an absolute set of rules with a very clear prism. you know what the goal is, you know they're trying to score a basket or a goal, whatever it might be, and it has that clarity of that prism. and you know that the rules are generally enforced with an aspiration towards justice. >> i feel like i spend my entire -- or i've spent my entire life asking the question, how on earth did that happen? what made that happen? in sports, i feel like i can quantify it. like, there are variables, but in the end, the person with the most amount of points wins. and sometimes it's less fair than other times, but if you get past the goal line, you get six points and then you get to do the extra point. i get it. >> but isn't the key with sports

the fact that it does have such a clear prism? the participants know, the viewers know. whereas if you look at our real lives right now, there isn't that singular prism as to why it is we work, what it is our nation is really aspiring to in its sort of highest identity, which is something that's never even an issue. >> what a great point. in sports, we're all on the same page. it's also the ultimate equalizer. the richest hedge fund manager who's a fan of the yankees can be talked about derek jeter last night, jose posada last night with a transit worker on the mta, they can have a meaningful discussion about it and both parties see each other's side. when else does that happen? >> the only time that happens is when you're talking about the corrupt government. they can both talk about how the government's bought, and they'll be like, no, i know. and jeter's the man. that's about all we can get. >> the great thing about sports, it wear s the expert mantle.

your friend lists what eli was doing this week. it makes you feel like you're the most intelligent person in the room. >> the other thing that i love, it reminds you of the capacity, the analytical capacity of the human mind, and imagine that sort of level of capacity that exists in fantasy football, that exists in sports fandom being applied to a congressperson. >> you say that about the congressman. all these congressmen always talk about how they love and support their local team. i wish they'd pay more attention to watching the games and see how the players work together. >> that's a great point. and you've created an extraordinary rationalization for every man and woman in america to explain to their significant other that they're not -- >> got to watch the game, honey! >> it's therapy. i heard it from