when my employees are happy, my customers are happy. vo: earn points for the things you're already buying. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. hello from new york. i am chris hayes. the red cross says the death toll in the philippines reached 521 will still missing. and sad news, a column of 100 vehicles crossed iraqi --

i want to bring in our guests today. a policy analyst and director of middle east progress, and one of the writers on policy. john mcorder, friend of the program, and a returning guest, and returning again, mrs. msnbc contributor, karen hunter former of the york daily news. glad to have you back. it feels in a weird way the iraq war has ended a number of times and there have been a bunch of different milestones, but overnight it ended, the iraq war ended. but after nine years, the u.s.

military has, quote, officially ended the war in iraq. the paperwork was signed for the handover of camp adder. and soldiers rolled up the military flag to signal the end of official service in iraq. and president obama gave a speech to the soldiers at ft. bragg where he had this to say. >> it's harder to end a war than to begin one. all the fighting, and all the dying, the bleeding, and the building and the training and the partnering, all of it has led to this moment of success. >> the president called the moment of success has costed

$807 billion, and 4,486 lives, and it's a difficult thing to estimate the iraqi deaths, but a shocking number of iraqi lives. i was struck by two things about this. first of all, the way that we feel about the end of the iraq war as opposed to the way we feel about the beginning, and the president said it was easier to end a war than begin one, and i think it was profound and true, but this was the defining political issue of a generation in some ways. a whole covert of people got active in politics and the war. we had two elections during the iraq war. and president obama is president today because as a state senator

in illinois he got up in an anti-war rally and opposed it, and hillary clinton voted for that war, and but for that -- but for that, barack obama may not be president today. >> i spoke to some of the administration over the last week and we recognized that clearly, we are sitting in the white house because of that, and the movement that coalessed around that was the result of his election. >> that speech was striking, and he is commander in chief and speaking to the troops, and he cannot go before them and say what a colossal waste, what a horrible, horrible thing we have done and i apologize, you can't say that. you have to call it a success. at the same time, in what sense can you call the iraq war a success? >> the one way i think you can call it a success, the iraqis

themselves are proud of having a democracy. one of the things i remember most vividly from being in the state department was sitting with a group of officials in iraq, soud rawe saudi arabia, as a year before the arab awaken g awakening. it was a terrible cost. from my point of view, it was a defining moment and a moment that taught me a very important lesson about trusting what officials say. >> you know, it's unclear to me that anybody could say that one could have known that this is the way it was going to turn out in the beginning. i was very much in favor of the iraqi favor sxrkts first war i was in favor of.

i admit colin powell suckered me, and i was on a book tour and made time to watch, and we could build a democracy and have it be a model, and it was botched, and we did not have it lockdown, and it was a complete mess and everybody would say that now, but nobody can say in 2003 they knew it was going to be this way unless they knew they shouldn't trust power, which i think is -- >> well, obviously -- >> well, we know as a nation you shouldn't trust power. >> there were several people that did oppose it, barack obama being one, and ron paul. but there's an arrogance to the thought that we can instill democracy, when we have not done well in terms of democracy, so that thought it was okay to do that from the inception -- i disagree with you, because there

are 113,000 family members holding us responsible, and rightly so. >> the idea of the time is it was not going to be 113,000, and it was going to be something short, and my thought was i would go over there and lose a life or limb in order to create -- >> so why didn't you go? >> i think that's actually what i thought. >> well, this idea that, oh, it was a good idea, but it was just botched in the way that we did it, i think it's something that many in the american foreign policy led to. >> remember, that -- there was bipartisan support for the war. there was. >> it was based on an emotional notion that these people were

somehow responsible for 9/11. >> no, not at all. >> i did not support it but i did not oppose it. i know what that sounds like -- >> sounds political. >> i wrote an op ed that said it was clearly illegal, but it may be legitimate if we find weapons of mass destruction, and if we go back to the u.n. right away. my democrat friends told me, just as colin powell told me, my democrat friends said we have evidence this guy has the stuff, and the entire u.n. has been condemning him, and we will go in and enforce the u.n. resolution. i thought we should not go without a u.n. resolution, but i still thought if we found wmds, and we went back it would be legitimate.

>> that's zero in on that point. i want to bring in mr. crowley in in a second. but first, there's a lot of lessons to learn in iraq, but that lesson to me seems profound. in terms of what information you take seriously and don't take seriously, who are the people that are deserving of credibility and undeserving of credibility, because the entire way that terrain was ordered during the -- the leadup to the iraq was was to marchgin annuale the iraq war -- >> and many could say we should have learned that lesson with vietnam. i thought at the time since we learned that lesson have

vietnam, certainly we will not do that thing again. >> it was -- >> when you project forward, the lesson doesn't stop there. allen greenspan told everybody there was no housing bubble, as did ben bernanke, and all sort of smart people were saying all sorts of things. they proved not to be true. >> you are saying to question power, and looking at iraq, all these people just kind of crowd sourcing this criticism and looking at the claims and doing their research, i found that interesting. that's something we didn't have in vietnam. >> p.j. crowley, we will discuss this more, the legacy of p.j. crowley after we take this break. ♪ i think i'm falling

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talking about the legacy of iraq on the day after the final 500 u.s. troops withdrew, and we have with us joining us p.j. crowley, he was the spokesperson for the state department and served in the air force and has been on the show. thank you for joining us. i want to get your thoughts on today and the actual final withdrawal from iraq, the end of the iraq war as a war. what are you thinking this morning? >> first, i want to give a shotout to anne marie and matt, former friends and colleagues of mine. another way of looking at the iraq war was was it an eight-year war or 20-year war? i served in the first gulf war in 1991, and my critique is there were reasons to deal with

hussein, and in light of 2001, i think it was a strategic mistake. the unknowns trumped the known. we needed to take our time to figure out how to deal with saddam hussein, and gain the legitimacy that we had, and gain a coalition within the region to take appropriate action, and because of our rush to war, this is where we were not prepared to deal with what we confronted in iraq, and that's what raise, as ann marie said, the extraordinary cost in the united states and iraq itself. >> but you said the cause of the war, the weapons of mass destruction did not exist, you still think it was a matter of rushing it? >> the vantage point matters here. did i think saddam hussein was going to pass nuclear know how

to osama bin laden? i can't conceive of a plausible scenario where that would occur, but in the aftermath of 9/11, was it appropriate to focus on iraq? well, some said we were occupying two holy mosques in saudi arabia. >> i don't understand the connection there. bin laden stated the occupation of saudi arabia -- we had a tremendous amount of troops in saudi arabia was one of the complaints against the united states, but why did that precipitate a renewed focus on saddam hussein? >> because if you need to change the status quo because the middle east, the status quo in iraq is the fact that we had and were perceived as supporting

dictators, and you have to look at how you can move the region past a saddam hussein. let's get to the bottom line here, is the united states better off without saddam hussein? yes. is the region better off without saddam hussein? yes, but what did we accomplish? it was too costly. >> saddam hussein was otis, because the regime was so awful in his particulars and what he did to the iraqis, that can't but yield the exact same thing you say it yields, and that's would we be better off without saddam hussein? and that's what seduced us into thinking the war was a good idea. ann marie? >> no, when we asked would we be

better off without saddam hussein, we were assuming it would be at low cost and quickly and the iraqi people would rise up in the way lots of nations have now, and if you would have said would we be better without saddam hussein at the cost of ten years of war and all those deaths, we would have said no way. >> i am thinking on the premise that's an inappropriate question to ask? >> no, if people were looking at america at the time, and saying the world would be better off without president bush, what would we do -- that's so arrogant. >> i would not have supported the iraq war if the idea was we were not going to knock out the regime. it was framed. the entire u.n. supported condemnation and sanctions

against iraq in november, and most members of the u.n. still believed he had weapons of mass destruction. >> but the timing was bad. we had the world on our side after 9/11. you remember the goodwill? and not just with you, chris, and others who now distrust our government and other agencies, the world looks at us as a bunch of liars -- >> yeah, that's one of the worst and enduring costs of the iraq war, and people around the world had issues with american policies, but they thought america was competent in what they were doing. i spoke to a journalists that said the permanent feature in turkey now is amazing -- >> i think we all would agree the world might be better off with a very difficult man that

sells fish on the street in beijing, if the world would be better off without him, and the implication was there was important things that he was doing in the world that we could do without, and do we consider those to be without them. >> but then, there was a lot of other evidence that said this was not happening there. as you point out, experts saying people on the ground saying we will believe collin powell with pictures, and halliburton got in there -- >> we will come back after this break. all energy development comes with some risk, but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy, while protecting our environment. across america, these technologies protect air - by monitoring air quality and reducing emissions... ...protect water - through conservation

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we have p.j. crowley from d.c. you mentioned an important point about our involvement in iraq

didn't start in 2003, in fact it long predates that going back to the picture with donald rumsfeld shaking hands with saddam hussein, and then the gulf war in the early 1990s, and then there was a period of sanctions. i think this is a little lost on the american public is just how devastated iraq was as a country prior to 2003. that's a study done -- i did some reporting on this, and there's one study of gdp in iraq in the first three years of the sanctions declined by 98%. and the great depression was a 27% gdp decline. what would happen to a country that lost 98% of its gdp? what do you think our legacy is iraq? >> i was opposed to the invasion in 2003, and i think it was a

mistake and unnecessary. the last thing we should have done on 9/11 is invade iraq and make it appear that we are at war with islam. but the current situation in 2002 was freying at the edges. the first gulf war never ended. we were already 12 years into an air campaign at the time that we invaded the country and it was devastating to iraq. i think that the idea that we could have used military power together with diplomaticd a gret deal in her analysis about partnerships, and we could have formed the coalition and a combination of diplomatic and military means, and found a way to change the status quo on the ground in much the same way we did in libya this year. that kind of operation limited

use of force in support of a broad diplomatic objective, and that was as feasible in iraq in 1993 as it was in libya in 2011. >> you spent a lot talking about the politics in iraq, and first of all we don't hear much about what we are leaving behind in iraq. we know we are leaving, but what are we leaving behind in iraq? what is the current play in iraqi politics? >> first of all, we're leaving behind a better and more democratic iraq that exists than under saddam hussein. and nuri al maliki, the prime minister spent a lot of years in this organization, and he is by all means ruling -- you know, it's very sncentered on himself. i was reading today about the complaints that he is simply not willing to share power.

there's troubling evidence that he is setting up his own sort of secret police. so it's better, but it's by no means a healthy democracy. >> and the maliki government is the most stable that has been in the post war period, i would say, and there's often be a quick succession. there's a sense that democracy in iraq is tending towards a democracy in name only. is that something you feel is the case? >> i think that's fair. he is a less beautiful strong man that saddam hussein was. >> p.j., when you talk about libya and the lessons learned there, when the libya intervention was on the table, and we were just talking about this a little bit in the break, and i wanted to hear from ann marie on this as well, and you were thinking about is this something i support or a good idea, what lessons did you with

draw from iraq and bring to the table in thinking about the intervention in libya? >> it's what secretary clinton calls strategic patience. there's criticism in this country that we did not move into libya fast enough, but the president said let's get a strong consensus within the region that intervention is necessary, and let's get legality, and let's make sure that we are in support of indinlg nus political forces in libya that are now in control of the country. i think that kind of patience was possible in 2003. the rush to war in my view was the great lesson from iraq that this idea of a mushroom cloud that was implausible. and we could not wait for the u.n., and we could not wait for

weapons inspectors to really reset the knowledge base about what the state of the weapons of mass destruction programs in iraq were. that to me was the great miss calculation and the great lesson from 2003-2003. >> you supported the libya intervention and wrote strongly in its favor, if i am not mistaken. >> absolutely. >> and what i remember reading, what lessons of iraq that you felt were brought when considering libya? >> well, the main lesson in iraq, again, was to be much, much more skeptical of claims about the use of force to understand how badly wrong the use of force could go. so to be more caution. it didn't make me think we shouldn't use force.

you know, my grandfather fought in world war ii. i believe there are wars we should fight, and i believe in libya, when the people on the ground were begging us to come in and everybody else in the region was actually tigfightingr the same thing the labels in libya were fighting for, i thought we should do it, but the way we did it, and i did not think we should send troops on the ground but give them the kind of help they wanted. >> i am not a foreign policy expert and i have nowhere near the body of knowledge and expertise you both have, but the lesson i learned was war being hell, and predicting the affects of war, and it made me skeptical in the libya intervention. >> chris, war in hell comes from sherman in the civil war. the march on atlanta. we shouldn't have fought that? my family is from the south. >> i am not declaring --

>> of course we should have fought it. but the point is, war is hell doesn't mean we shouldn't fight wars. >> it creates a weight on one side of the scales -- >> you should be more careful. >> my thanks to pj crowley. we will have you back soon. >> we will be right back. this was the gulf's best tourism season in years. all because so many people came to louisiana... they came to see us in florida... make that alabama... make that mississippi. the best part of the gulf is wherever you choose... and now is a great time to discover it. this year millions of people did. we set all kinds of records.

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another holiday and stuck at the kids table again.

andrew, come on over here. sit over here. [ boy ] cool. [ kid ] i was a finally a man. on my way to shaving, driving and staying up past midnight. and then it happened. my two favorite things in the world. together. i learned something that day. being an adult is overrated. [ male announcer ] holidays aren't the same without home baked marie callendar's pies and the real dairy cream of reddi wip. this decision of a complete pullout of united states troops in iraq was dictated by politics and not the national security. i believe this president will judge this -- >> john mccain, that's not from

2004 or 2005 or 2006, that's from a few days ago. what i thought was interesting, a, the politics of war and iraq particularly have not changed at all seemingly on the republican side of the aisle, which is really remarkable. we are talking about the lessons learned and the soul searching among liberal humanitarians and folks that supported the war, and if you look at the presidential candidates, with the exception of ron paul, it seems like there are no lessens. if you are pulling out it's bad, and i thought it was interesting that priorities usa, the obama aligned super packs -- i don't know what it is, and they put out the press release slamming mccain and romney and everybody else because they think the politics of this helped the president, and he said he would end the war. i am amazed at how the political

terrain shifted on the right given what we just have gone through. >> why the amazement, when the fact of the matter is is most human beings are not reflective, especially as politicians as high as mccain, so what they are doing is appealing to the base, and that's the stage we're at now, and the red meat sorts and they have one idea and they are not sitting around reflecting about these things, and it's an unreflective position -- >> 51% of republicans wanted to pull out. >> ron paul has all of his supporters -- >> there's a vocal republican base that feel otherwise. >> my theory is i think there's an amazing wedge between the class of the republican party, and all the same people -- the

people that were asking questions about the debate, the rogues gallery -- >> it's like -- >> yeah, they were showing up at the debate, and they still had exactly the same status of the republican party and at the same think tanks, and it's a whose who murderers row, and i am referring to the 1927 yankees, of the folks that were responsible for iraq, and it -- >> just in terms -- >> i want to agree with john mccain. this was dictated by politics, iraqi politics. >> the pullout was dictated by the status -- >> it was -- the politics shifted to the right. george w. bush completed this

agreement. >> i felt that the thing, to me, the thing that was most promising was the report saying the maliki government would not give troops immunity, because of the price they would pay with the iraqi people. >> and that means the iraqi policy is working better, and matt said maliki is just a less brutal strong man that hussein, and i don't think that's right because there are politics -- >> yeah, i recognize that and it's a great point. as i said, this is not saddam hussein. but there are troubling things going on in his way of ruling. >> the iraq war lost a huge supporter this week, and the world of letters in journalism, with christopher hitchens. i want to talk about his legacy, particularly on this question of iraq right after we take a break. [ female announcer ] did mr. intern forget how his boss takes her coffee?

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writer christopher higons died this week. it was at the nation where he shifted from a critic of war to one of the biggest supporters, and this piece he wrote in 2004, he was invited back after leaving as a columnist, and he wrote why i'm slightly for bush. he could say i was a blair supporter rather than a bush endorser, and i am a member of a small regime change left that originates in solidarity with the left, and brave people who have received zero report from the american anti-war movement.

that was hitchens, and the argument he made in support of the iraq war is i think he made the most extreme version of it. but it has real resonance. it was not just in bill keller, who considers himself a democrat and a liberal, and he wrote a column in the "new york times" calling it i can't believe i'm a member of the hawk club, and then the story about packer who supported the war based on what they said grounded in the solidarity with the iraqi resistance. it was a very seductive vision with the left liberal intellectuals that you were going to be on the right side -- it was the spanish civil war. and hitchens was one of the first people to use the world

islamic faction. and how much sort of truck does this still have? >> i want to say first what a fan i was of his writing. i remember reading his minority reports in the nation, and it was a lightning strike moment that sets your head spinning. his argumentarguments, they are for liberals and progressives. and how can we help improve a lot of owe pressed people. one of the problems that i have with what he wrote was the relish with he began to speak of killing people. that's something that i could not stomach and i found it to be beneath him, you want to commit suicide for your faith i'm here to help, and he explained to crowds how we had shrapnel

flying through bodies, and he would say consider yourself a warrior in the fight, and i found it very distasteful. >> that last point is very important. i am regarded as a card carrying liberal hawk. >> you hate the term hawk and dove -- >> yeah, because -- >> i put that in air quotes. >> in this case, i would not have supported iraq on regime changing grounds. there were not iraqis asking us to come in. there was a smaller group of exiled iraqis, but i did take that position on syria and egypt, and you are with a situation where you have people fighting for the very values we

say we are standing for, and you say we will not help you because that would mean our betraying our values of not wanting to kill, we fought for our own liberty. i agree that you have to understand how serious the decision is, and i think for the united states to say that we will not use force in defense of our values or to support others carrying our values -- >> i think america's values are kind of twisted, those of us that live in the country, there's not one single thread of value that we can wrap ourselves around. there's a little bit of hypocrisy when we talk about american values when you look at what happens across the world in the things we have done in the name of our values. the moral stand that you want to take and maybe mr. hitchens wanted to take -- >> you mean there are not values we stand for -- >> i think we're hypocritical.

we pick and choose. we talk about what about sudan and somalia, and all the other countries where people are being murdered every single day, we don't go in and liberate them, but we liberate with a wink and a nod and say it's for moral reasons. >> no. >> i don't think -- there's a pragmatic thought that takes place -- >> yes, and at what costs. >> i think the thing that i find frustrating about the liberal hawkishness for lack of a better word, you could do a lot of good if you bought mosquito nets? we're talking about how can you do good for these people, there's a lot of different ways

the u.s. could it. >> mosquito nets were not going to help anybody in libya. >> there's tons of people -- >> the bush administration doubled foreign aid, something that people do not recognize. >> we can't assume christopher hitchens would not have had a counter argument to the idea that we might invade every country in the world where there is problems. he would have had a articulate response. >> what made him dangerous was he was so prolific and -- >> he had a certain way of talking about killing. he was a boy playing with toy soldiers, and he made an argument, he was somebody that knew how to take an argument and keep the thread going. i was taken by him as a

undergraduate. >> here is a clip of hitchens. this is hitchens doubling down on support of iraq and saying why, even if the war is going poorly, he still supported it. >> well, this must be supported whether it's going well or not, and it's a huge mistake of those who support it, to consider that it must be going well in order to deserve support. it's when it's going badly that it needs support. afast! dinner! [ garth ] we get double miles every time we use our card. and since double miles add up fast, we can bring the whole gang! it's hard to beat double miles! i want a mace, a sword, a... oww! [ male announcer ] get the venture card from capital one and earn double miles on every purchase, every day. go to capitalone.com. i wonder what it could be?! what's in your wallet?

a little "trampled by turtles" out of duluth, minnesota. they are awesome. i wanted to talk about this. if you look back at the week's news, and it's not if you get to rank them in terms of world import, but an article here is

one of the sort of moments when somebody hits a nerve, and gene marks wrote "if i was a poor little black kid." he has a talent for what we call trolling, which is to toss the material out there and let the views pileup, and he had a article "why most women will not become ceo," and he bragged he is a freak guest on tv and radio shows, and the lame column that he wrote occasioned a whole bevy of brilliant xlcommentary. i thought you guys would have something to say about it. the article basically, for the

folks who are not familiar with it. this will give you a flavor of the article itself. i am a middle aged white guy who comes from a middle class white background, so life was easier for me. i would make it my number one priority to read sufficiently. i wouldn't care if i was the worst, because the worst have their best and the column goes on to spell out a kind of vision of this imaginary poor black kid with no advantages, and using all the technologies like skype and spark notes that you get on the internet, and -- karen, what did you -- >> oh, you are going to me first? >> yeah. >> if i were a middle aged white man in america i probably would steer clear of subjects like

this because i clearly have no understanding of what it means or feels like to be a poor black child in america, which is in and of itself, even if you are not a poor black child, the studies will tell you you will have a hard time, and as long as you have this in your skin you will have a harder time getting a job, in school, a harder time across the board, you know. i think he did do this for publicity, which chaps my behind beyond belief, but we can have this dialogue because race is something we don't talk honestly enough in this country, and as a result we have these pieces. >> i think we talk about race all the time, and -- >> no, we don't. >> and a lot of talk is honest, and we like to say that we don't talk about it while we're talking about it. but i think this guy had no business writing this. if you are this poor black kid,

and most poor black kids are going to do what they see their poor black parents and piers -- peers. he talks about the idea that you should strive for excellence, ie being something other than mediocre. it seems to me what the main problem with his piece is, he is saying it as this white person from outside, because if somebody from inside such as bill cosby, all of the exact same things about what you should do even -- >> and wait, wait, wait. >> then it's considered inspiring. i don't agree with what we wrote, but what we seem to be saying is it's advanced for we black people to drive for --

>> we have to take a break and i will let you respond when we come back. don't go anywhere.

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hello from new york. i am chris hayes. we have our guests with us. john mcquarter at columbia university, and a msnbc contributor. we had printed out the amount of comments it got as a visual prop, but it was as thick as a phone book, and it was called "a poor black kid," and it was a condescending bit of advice from

a middle class white guy to a poor black kid, and we were saying there was something about what resinated, and karen, i want to get your response. ann marie, first you said you had something you wanted to say. >> i thought the responses were better than the column. and there was one that went in and spent the last eight years coaching debate in east harlem, and he said something that i thought was important as the mother of a 15-year-old and 13-year-old, and he said it's about individual choice for poor people or rich people and it's about individual choice and in the end a teenager has to make the decision, am i going to text and goof-off and listen to music, or am i going to work hard and do my homework and try to learn. that's exactly the choice by 15-year-old is trying to make,

but what is clear is it's easier to make the right choice than a kid when most of what he knows pushes in the other direction. but the individual choice that these are not poor black kids anymore than i am upper middle class white woman, and it's about individual choice, and the circumstances in which these kids are making choices, it's much harder. >> this is the thing, whether it's john or mark sitting in their ivory towers talking about what black people need to do is insulti insulting. i used to get up every morning and teach grammar in harlem, and there's a student who was homeless and in a shelter with his mom, and i talked with her boy, and he wrote a book, and 16

years old sent me 163 pages and it's going to be published, and it comes out january 10th. he's from brooklyn. >> we will have kyle chase on the show. i want to talk to him on the show. >> absolutely. but the point is, forever one of these black kids in the hood who are not achieving, there are success stories nobody talks about. >> when you tell me that story, you know, in a weird way, it sort of endorses the vision that jean marks is laying out, like the individual can overcome circumstances and do remarkable things -- >> kyle is not necessarily special. he does not have an off-the-chart i.q., and he was a kid in brooklyn that did not

have a hope until somebody believed in him. roll up your sleeves and get involved in these things, and see that they are worth something other than your opinion. >> if you say the kid was not exactly a genius and this is something that was brought out of him, all i am saying is there's room to mention that it's possible -- >> these kids are already -- i have to say this. >> and more to the point, i don't want people to think that i, quote, unquote, sit in the ivory tower and talk about what black people should do -- >> i have seen your ivory tower -- >> i do think it's quite nice. >> i write about government programs that can help black people -- >> that's all paternalistic. if you are somebody that writes that work, you do spend time in the black community talking and looking -- >> why don't we write about white poor kids in the appellation mountains or in

trailer parks. i disagree with you. we talk about race. it's not about whether i agree with it. at the end of the day, people are judged on the color of their skin. >> we don't talk about it? >> no, we -- >> we never talk about the impact of racism. >> i picked up my laptop and turned it sideways, because i thought it was great work of satire. he says the problem is not inequality, and it's ignorance. i think it speaks to the desire on the part of white people to believe there's not serious and astemmic disadvantages to being poor and black. >> one of the things that i have been looking for data for my book, and it's hard to measure social mobility, but to the

extent we can measure it, we have less socialability in the united states than other western democracies, and that's largely a story about race. >> thank you. >> if you look at white people actually, we have tons of social mobility. >> well, there is less among whites than there was. >> and the other thing is, as social mobility declined, polling, when you poll americans, is it possible in america to go from being poor to rich, and that number has gone up. we have a bizarre -- social mobility has been declining, and the same time, the faith we cling to ever more firmly. that's why it hits a nerve, because the end of the day the civic religion to all we subscribe, it's a fundamental idea of an individual overcoming disturbance >> it's like starting a person at a race and breaking their

legs, and you say they need to get to the finish line and then you criticize them for getting there last. if you want to sit there and say you should just do better, pull yourselves up, and i am a big bootstrap person, i am big in my community, let's look at where we are, and not to pin it on -- >> you are not truly an educated person if you don't understand that it's extremely difficult to get beyond poverty. >> yeah, skype does solve a lot and it is fun to show my little baby girl off to her grandmother on skype, this is a -- >> that does not get you out of the projects. we're going to talk about the ron paul experience right after this break.

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i don't know what it says about congressman ron paul or the state of the republican party, but there is this ron paul experience that i think liberals have, right? it's a very confounding experience. he oscillates between things are seem bizarre and things that are sensible and courageous. i am always struck by how genuinely he seems courageous to me. there's levels of bravery. he stands up there on fox news

in front of a crowd people and republican viewers and says things that are so against the world view of everybody else on stage and everybody in the moderator's chair, and most of the people in the crowd excepted for the ron paul cheerers that are there, and it's a fascinating thing to watch. he's a fascinating figure, because right now he is scaring the republican establishment in a profound way. this is the poll that comes from iowa. these are the iowa polls. you will see that gingrich at 22%, and paul is a close second, and there's talk of him winning the caucuses. and the new hampshire poll of polls, and you will see paul in a respectable third, just a few points behind gingrich. and here is an example of the kind of moment i am talking

about with ron paul. this is from the debate in tampa, florida, and this is paul talking about why al qaeda attacked america. >> this whole idea that the whole muslim world is responsible for this and they are attacking us because we are free and prosperous. that's not true. they have been explicit, and they wrote and said that we attacked america because you had bases on our holy land in saudi arabia, and you do not give palestinians a fair treatment, and you have been bombing -- i didn't say that, i am trying to get you to understand what the motive was behind the bombing. >> what i love about that split scream, is rick santorum is not faking, and everybody in that moment, it's a rare moment where everybody was being honest, and

the crowd booing is being honest about their reaction, and the mouths agap, they are being entirely honest about how they feel about it. what do you make of this, the ron paul sort of conceptional bombs that he throws in there? >> he clearly spent the last few years building his organization, and his backers are clearly motivated. i think it goes to the real divide, speaking on foreign policy, the real divide that continues to exist between the base, especially his people, the tea party people, the core of the tea party movement, and the elite foreign policy, they do foreign policy for the republic tons, that's a real tension. >> obviously, ron paul's views on things that are not foreign policy are extremely troubling and there are examples of really troubling that came out in the

news letter that we will show in a moment, and do you find yourself seduced -- >> absolutely. he is at an age where i don't give a crap age, and you can say what you want to say and get away with it, and what, i am 75 and i am going to say this and believe it. when he got into it in the last debate about the whole war thing, it was refreshing, actually. i try to leave the partisan politics out of it, because we need to pick a leader for all of us, and it's refreshing to have somebody be honest about it. >> he is intelligent and not a joyner. he goes to the facts, and he goes where they take him, and it's hard not to be swayed aspeshlgly given what a lot of the republican candidates are alike. there's a charisma. >> it's a strange, strange kind

of charisma. >> i think he was doing it before he was old. >> it comes from the courage, just waiting for him to say something that he believes that is smack in the face of everything else. the other thing i will say about it, it's on foreign policy but also on torture. he is one of the first people, he will stand up there and say this completely contravenes what we stand for. >> i agree with that. and i regret a little, because that clip you just played, that's a very sim plisic explanation why the 9/11 attacks happened. i don't completely agree, and there's an element of truth to it, and wishing he articulates the arguments better to force -- >> well, i want to come to you on this, because what he said right there, that is not being said, nobody says that on the democratic establishment. maybe with the exception of

denn dennis when he was in the field. talking about it, just talking about it in those terms, that is toxic, even on the democratic side, right? >> nobody would dare to say that. >> but is it because it's not true or too politically explosive? >> well, democrats are immediately being worried about being soft on security, the idea that you would say anything that would have impaw thae or understanding of those against us, no -- >> we understand you might have complaints about our policies in the past, and we are bowing -- >> how do they reconcile with ron paul, who is clearly a republican and clearly a constitutional republican, and he is really entrenched, so what do they do with him? >> what they do is --

>> what they do with him, as soon as he ascended to the lefl in the field, have you seen the republican establishment go after him in a big way. here here is shawn hannity -- >> well, there is none. >> he had the news letter in the '80s and '90s, and unbelievable things written in it. order was only restored in l.a. when it came time for blacks to pick up their welfare checks. this was in his news letter. >> there is no foreign policy or commander in chief, because his foreign policy is impossible. >> a great defender of racism. i want to talk about that after we take this break.

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all right. ron paul, the ron paul experience is what we are talking about here. let me show the parts of ron paul's past that hannity was referring to. ron paul served two different times in congress, he was a congressman and then wasn't and then a congressman again, and then in between he wrote the ron paul investment letter, and it's unclear if he wrote it or if people wrote it form. and he said ple to act like rea americans, because they have not been assimilated into the rotten liberal culture, which admonishes whites. and then i amplin pulling the r out from all of you guys. this is the investment letter,

whether it was a setup by the israeli mossad or truly a retaliation by islamic fundamentalists matters little. >> i want him to win the nomination. >> yes, because of quotes like this. >> what i find -- it makes me wonder where there's a connection between the isolationism or anti-imperialism that he defends and these other views, right? for ron paul, it's a seamless web of state power, and -- >> slavery. >> but civil rights legislation. >> yes. >> and that's consistent -- >> yes, he is consistent. >> he's not the only one that

feels there should not have been civil rights legislation, and we should have let things move along gradually, and he doesn't care. >> because he has conviction and courage to come out and be honest about that, i think that's why his support -- and you noted it, it's so rabid, and it's the anti-romney, he will flip-flop to get political sway, ron paul is straight down the line, crooked down the line. >> well, until now -- >> this came out a few years ago. >> until now, the obama administration has to worry about is how many young people are going with him, and a lot of people, young people, what they saw with obama is change, the system where somebody will get up there and say what he believes. >> there's something scary about the young people who will follow

ron paul that intimated a race war. there's something scary about ripping it apart. and there's something disturbing about it. >> my naive guess is when that thing becomes better more, more educated young people will fall away. >> yeah, and because the sort of strangeness and foreignness that he aspouses, that attracts such fervid belief, the whole point about running for president is breath of support and not death. >> but, mccain got a lot of support from people that said i don't agree with what you said, but i know you are straight. >> the des moines register today came out with their endorsement,

which is relatively big to the extent that newspaper endorsements matter anymore, and drumroll, please, it's for romney. it's a tweak to the conventional wisdom, saying the flip-flopping is a good thing. >> it's illustrated by his yao naunsed statements over the last couple of years. romney at least appreciates both sides of hard questions. >> it really does get -- i don't know how to describe the argument, but the idea that he could be attractive to people because even people who might not be inclined to support what they believe in now, they will like, well, he really believes

me. >> maybe if you stick around a little while -- >> there is nothing to suggest that he can thread the arguments. it's not his nature to look at both sides of things. that's a nature that has come out when it's expedient for him. >> i think the thing people find is precisely some of the qualities they mention here, there's an obama rhetorical, some people say x and some people say y -- >> that's the lawyer in him. it's something inherent to him as a thinker. >> wow, i agree with you.

>> i understand -- here is what i -- i think he had strong convictions come into office, and he was met with a heaping pile of crap -- >> you said crap twice in the hour, just taking score. >> given the fact that government runs the way it does, i don't know he knew congress would do what it did to him, and all the obstructionism that he came into, and he had to make decisions on the fly. but i agree, i think there's a fundamental difference between romney who looks like a classic politician that will sway, you like this, okay, i will be over here, as opposed to obama who is trying to run the country. >> isn't there some democratic argument for flip-flopping in the way that mitt romney has -- emery thinks it's crazy. you are running to represent -- i understand the argument, no core principles, but you are running to represent the people of massachusetts and they have a certain set of beliefs on

abortion and gay rights, and you bend yourself towards that, and the people of massachusetts don't want to elect somebody prolife, so you are a mormon -- >> i antbelieve i am the progressive going to cite burke. he says this is what i will believe and do, and vote for me, and leave me alone once i am in power. >> or something in between. you are supposed to represent the people. so you have to listen and you have to actually hear what they are saying and understand that in some cases that's what they are electing you to do. but you also have to have a set of principles. part of what they elect you for is your integrity, or ability to stick to your principles. you can support somebody that you don't agree with, if what you fundamentally believe is in the end this person has principles and will make the right decision. >> that was the entire selling point of bush, and it was that

the john kerry -- >> yeah, and it worked. >> but it should give us pause about that model of presidential leadership, i think. >> there was no learning and evolution. that's what i mean. you have to actually, a., recognize i made a big mistake and learned from it, and that's a principle i think that you are supposed to elect somebody for, and also he was so far out of step then with what the majority of americans wanted at that point he becomes an ideologue. >> we will take a look at weekend papers right after we come back. [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus presents: the cold truth. i habe a cohd. and i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up.

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all right. a columnist at the new york times as a column in saturday's

new york times, and we didn't get to talk about there in the first part of the show, and one of the other controversial positions for which he is best known is his athaeism. i did not ask you guys to rack this, but the hitchens clip on aatheist. he says when tripped of marxist fairy tails, the tech know utopian happy talk -- he is an example. >> what does chris anti-say? those laws can be suspended, and in your favor, too, if you make the right prayers and sack raw

vices. a dead body can walk again. the blind can see. nonsense. it's not moral to lie to children. it's not moral to lie to ignorant uneducated people, to tell them if they believe nonsense they can be saved. it's immoral. >> and he called the new atheist, and they inaugurated a new round in what is one of the oldest ideological battles on the planet. what do you think about this kind of militant atheism that he represents? >> well, i think the tone will make any religious reader feel ignorant is not constructive,

because that's not the way to make somebody think in the way you are thinking, but i think atheism is -- there will be some people who feel that way, and that's inevitable, and to the extent that there are people who are making it that it's not considered a mark of ignorance or moral pollution or political incorrectness to say one is an atheist, which i do myself, and i think that's progress. the tone is problematic, but the fact that those books have been written and it's becoming easier for people to come out as atheist, and -- >> i asked somebody would you vote for somebody that was, blank, and there's mormon, gay,

and atheist is worst than any of them. >> i don't think it's quite -- >> well, last time i spoke about this subject, i got a billion e-mails all over the world from angry atheist, because i told them they should shut up. i think the notion that you want to force people -- it's like you don't want people to talk about chris ant christian, and i don't think it's anti-intellectual -- you are having a baby, and everybody who has seen miracles happen in their lives, you have to know that there's a god, so i am going to -- well, i am insulted when people say things to me. who would know you are an atheist, unless you make it an

issue. if you are doing it, why are you doing it -- >> the kind of militant atheistism, the school of thought that he was part of, this new atheist school, it's a reaction to a certain kind of feeling that people have of an overbearing of religion, and particularly during the bush years, whenever magazine in 2004 was about an evangelical vote, and the president's faith was a constant issue, and our civic life is suffocating -- >> we are confusing human beings who may misconstrue scripture -- nobody should be sitting around just praying for manna to fall

from heaven, and we have people that blow up abortion clinics in the name of god, they are not operating with what their faith believes. and we need to be vigilant -- >> i think this atheism, it's another kind of relidnlgionreli. there's no way we can know. i believe in faith, and i believe in believing in the impossible. if people did not believe in the impossible, they would not be able to knock down a government. those people in the square in libya, and in syria, they believe in something people tell them that is impossible. so faith in something that is bigger than you are, that you

can do things people tell you you can't is absolutely faith essential -- >> it's revolutionary faith. >> people are offended with the evangelic evangelical atheism. >> well, some believe that religious faith is destructive, and they should say so early. i am a militant agnostic, and i think there are costs and benefits, and i think there are examples whether we choose a civil rights movement would not have been as it was without religious faith, the way religious faith sustains people, and it inspires acts of great kindness and justice, and one needs to take that into account. >> and it would be difficult to say there would be no wars if there were no religion. >> i think the thing that troubles me is the most that the

way the door is opened and the way we bind together inseptions, faith and the president's character, and when you compare the speech john f. kennedy gave, and he talked about the strong argument of separation between government and faith,and what has evolved in the span of those 48 years was from the position of the jfk speech which was the separation of church and faith, i will be president and the vatican will not be calling the shots, and romney is saying i am a christian like you. what you should know for the news week ahead coming up next. ♪ ♪

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quick correction on something i said earlier in the show. i said u.s. foreign aid was.02%, and i was off, and that's important, and you should know that. alex, what is coming up this morning? >> it's always the math, chris. that's what gets you. you were not a math major. it's okay. it's a big endorsement in iowa for mitt romney. we will talk with the editor about their pick. tony morrison once claimed clinton was the first black president. and doris kearns goodwin says why civility in congress is worst today than in 50 years, and probably not a surprise to

you, chris, when we say that. what should you know for the week coming up? rick perry has been double-dipping on the taxpayer's dime. he officially retires from his job as governor back in january so he could pocket an extra $7700 a month in early pension benefits on top of the $150,000 he already draws in salary as governor, bringing his total compensation for the year to just under a quarter of a million dollars. and the war with iraq has ended and the last troops will be home in time for the holidays. we are leaving behind the largest u.s. embassy in the world, and between 3500 and 5500 armed security workers stay in the state, so it's not accurate to say we are leaving iraq. and saying bad things about your colleagues is a jerky thing to

do. you should know that congresswoman sheila jackson lee responded by saying she had never known steve king as having a multitask capacity. and then it took detention before the government presented its charges against him on friday. there is much about ron paul's world view that is otis, but we know that part of his appeal is with the possible exception of huntsman, the rest of the field has adopted the neocon conservative pattern of the bush administration. you should know that the

controversy surrounding the reality show "all american musli muslims" was drummed up by one dude in florida, the author of a book about his pornography addiction, and he is the only employee of a group he calls the florida family association. you should know the fact that one disturbed person on the website can have them pull their funding for the show is a sign of the times. on christmas, we will not be on the air, but saturday, christmas eve morning, we will be bringing a special year in review episode of "up." you won't want to miss it. my guest are going to come back and tell us what they think we should know this week right after this. the employee of the month isss... the new spark card from capital one.

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all right. your guests are back to tell us what we should know as the news unfolds this week. matt, what should we know going into the week? >> worth noting, yesterday was the one-year anniversary of the man setting himself on fire and setting off the arab spring. he was the tunisian spreed vendor who lit himself aflame and started events that changed the world. >> he was a fruit vendor in a provincial capital in tunisia. the police said he didn't have a permit. they confiscated his scales and he complained and then lit himself on fire and that sparked the beginning of the protest in tunisia which was the first place it started. >> people should be watching what's happening in egypt. we've seen a great deal of violence which i think is very, very unfortunate and notably the civilian advisory council suspended its operations a few

days ago, not willing to add it's i am pra mat to what's going on. the prime minister denies what's going on. it's all over you-tube and it's out of control. >> the governing body is the supreme command of the allied forces. it's run by someone who served under mubarak. what was the head -- >> the second echelon of the regime. >> the others were kicked out. we spent some time on egypt and the protests there. we'll be returning it to too. emery? >> kr didn't you come to me first. i was going to tell you that the supreme council of the allied forces has dropped any pretense of actually wanting any kind of democracy in egypt and they are -- there is a you-tube video of watching the egyptian military beating and clubbing a veiled woman there. they literally declared open war on the egyptian people. that's come to a head. since matt said that, i will

tell you, you should also know that barack obama and his inaugural address said we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. he is in danger of for getting that lesson. if he signs the national defense authorization act, an act that both dick durbin and tom harkin and senator jim demint all opposed that is a betrayal of our ideals. >> i'm glad to hear you say that. talked to a senator who voted against it yesterday. senator from delaware who voted for it. still going back and forth on twitter about what the act does. it's ambiguous in a way that's maddening. the first french government congress signed on to very broad executive powers. jacque mcwherter, what should folks know? >> out of my purview. we examine things in the middle

east, such as what happened in libya in terms of casualties, what's going on in egypt and in syria, we should remember when looking for change in regime there, the most likely we're not going to see the kinds of democracy that please us the most and not denmark of the we'll see an intermediate phase. that's how change works. that's often going to be highly fundamentalist oriented governments. perhaps that's better than what there was before. >> we're not going to have governments that are denmark. i think that's fair to say. karen hunter. >> keep it simple. head into the christmas season, kicked off black friday which was an abomination. people were arrested and injured and pepper sprayed throughout sick states in the country. we need to remember the reason for the season and just focus on not playstations and ipads and fur coats and diamond rings but love and family and the things that are important. >> i like that message. i would also say it's the end of the year and if i can make a play. it's the end of the year, which a lot of people do charitable giving at the end of the year.

charities that my family supports, one that i really feel strong by is partners in health. started in haiti. they do development. amazing development work around the world. partners in health. they have a model of solidarity that i think is really inspiring. they're very efficacious. so people should check it out if they're considering annual giving. i want to thank my guests today. matthew dutch, princeton professor, emory slaughter. john mcwhorter of the root.com and karen hunter, thanks guys. that was gate. we are taking off for christmas. we'll on be on at 7:00 eastern time. our look back at the year 201. our chance to weigh in on all the stuff that happened before we launched our show. in the meantime, you can find us at up with chris on facebook. up next is alex witt and we'll see you next saturday here on "up." ♪

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