so pay strict attention. this election coming up in 2012 is going to be a very tough challenge for the democrats. very tough. any partisan of president obama who doesn't get it is missing the deep down fire that's burning on the other side. and by the way, that burning fire is coming to a true blue flame right out here in iowa. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "the ed show" with ed schultz starts right now. good evening, americans. welcome to "the ed show" live from minneapolis. rick santorum is surging in iowa at exactly the right time. i caught up with the former senator from pennsylvania today in musketine, iowa. that interview is next. this is "the ed show."ç let's get to work. the ground game is heating up in iowa. we'll talk with rick green of the "des moines register" on how the race is shaping up. agriculture secretary and former iowa governor tom vilsack will give us the democratic perspective. john nicholls is in iowa, and

he'll join us with the latest from the trail. ron paul is running away from a controversial pastor who says gays should be put to death. we'll have more on the latest scandal to plague the paul campaign. and with just five days to go, who will come out on top in iowa? msnbc political analyst richard wolff, vice chair of the dncr.t. rybak and dr. catherine hellman will join me to assess the candidates and their chances in iowa and beyond. >> good to have you with us tonight, folks. thanks for watching. the focus tonight on "the ed show" starting out is going to be on rick santorum. now, you know my political persuasion. but i bring this story to you tonight completely objective from iowa. on the stump, rick santorum is impressive. he is well versed, schooled up, and very strong in his conviction. it was town hall number 358 today in musketine, iowa. santorum calls it his faith,

family and freedom tour, which carries a strong anti-government message. and i'll tell you, there are few on the stump who do a better job of retail politics. >> senator, the polling here shows you've had an uptick. is it real? >> i think you saw from the crowd in there that there's a lot of energy and enthusiasm. i think that's a good sign. people are excited about this campaign. i hear this all the time. people come in and say i found the guy i was looking for. people say, well, where have you been? well, it's not like i've gotten a whole lot of time at the debates or a whole lot of time being covered by the media. and i expected that. i got into this race, i knew that this was going to be a hard slog and not a lot of money and not a lot of coverage. and so i was going to have to do what every small business has to do, which is just work harder to make ends meet.

>> senator, what's the plan? conservative blogger eric eriksson was very critical of you in the last 24 hours, saying that you can't go past iowa, you don't have anything in new hampshire. >> well, we have 20-plus state reps who've already endorsed us in new hampshire. i think we're second or third in the number of endorsements we have from elected officials in new hampshire. we've hay staff there i think longer than anybody but romney. >> so you'll do well in new hampshire? >> oh, you go to our office in bedford, send a crew by there, and you see all the phones buzzing. and they have been for weeks. we've got great volunteers there. i've been there 30 times. i've visited and done over 100 town hall meetings there. again, i've said this from the very beginning. iowa provides the spark. we've got lots of tinder out there on the ground that can pick it up. look, i'm not going to compete against mitt romney, but we can do very well versus the rest of the field. >> santorum's pitch to iowa voters on the stump is all about judgment and leadership. at the drop of a hat he'll invoke religion and family values.

he loves to do that. he's also quick to go after mitt romney on the health care mandate.ç >> you're in competition with mitt romney, and he says, to go back to the point of the conservative principle, a mandate is a conservative principle. can you have it both ways? >> i don't know how you can say a mandate is a conservative principle. it obviously is not. it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what conservatism is if he believes government mandates ray conservative principle. >> a crowd of about 100 people paid close attention to the former pennsylvania senator. santorum constantly vilified government and the role of government. and he also went after the obama administration repeatedly. he assured the crowd that he would be strong, a very strong leader on national security. where he questioned ron paul's judgment and wisdom. >> you took a pretty good crack at ron paul in there. yet he's polling well in the very state that you've been in every county. >> oh, he's been here too. he's been here for like three elections or four elections.

>> you're you whacked him pretty good on the question of the straits of hormuz and the volley verbally back and forth with iran and the united states right now. how do you calculate his support in this state? >> people are upset. i mean, he's sort of the zeitgeist candidate. i get it. but the people of iowa i believe and the people of this country are going to step back and say, you know, what's the right course to put the person up against barack obama who's going to present the contrast that is most likely to get the big problems in this country solved? and the big problem in this country is not a military that has grown out of proportion.ç 50 years ago the military took up 60% of the budget. it now takes up 20%. it is not the reason we're in a deficit situation. >> ron paul and mitt romney lead santorum in the latest polls. and santorum is not afraid to take a whack at either of them,

especially romney. when he says he comes from the private sector. >> what about jobs? he claims that he's been the job creator. what would your job plan versus his look like? >> well, you've heard me talk about this. and you've heard me say at the debate, i love these governors who run around saying i created all these jobs. if you're a democrat, you may say that because you may believe government creates jobs. but if you're a republican and you're conservative and you're running around saying i do this and i do that, then you don't understand how conservatism works. i've said i'm not going to run around and say i've created all these jobs. what i'll say is we're going to work hard to create the atmosphere for the private sector to do well, and in particular to make sure that we have a private sector where all of society can benefit. and that includes small town, rural, and blue-collar america. and that's why i focus my made in the usa plan on manufacturin, and processing. >> so less than a week to go. five, six days out what's the

landscape look like right now? well, it's pretty clear that santorum, perry, and bachmann are fighting for the social conservatives in iowa. if they fracture the vote, it's all great for mitt romney and ron paul. so how is santorum selling this? >> have you seen all the candidates? >> personally? no. i'm trying to keep track of what's going on, what i see on tv and so on. but he's my guy.ç >> how do you think he plays in iowa? >> i think he plays pretty well. i think there's going to be a surprise come january 4th. >> i really like senator santorum. i agree with his values, his family values. he's got a good economic plan. solid. i like him. >> have you seen all the candidates? >> i have seen most of them. and the ones who have come to musketine, i believe i've been in each of their -- >> and he's your guy? >> well, i like him. i would have to say i probably -- i have another guy in mind.

>> okay. >> also. so i have not decided who it's going to be. >> so you're an undecided? >> i am an undecided. >> and when do you think you'll decide? >> i think i'll probably decide january 3rd, whenever i'm in my precinct. >> i liked what he said. i believe that he's intelligent. i believe he's principled. and he has a lot of good thoughts on what would strengthen the united states. >> is he your guy? >> i wouldn't say that yet. i listened to romney yesterday. and romney has a broader view of the world. and i really think that he is more focused internally and we need somebody with more leadership. being the governor is more about leading a diverse group than leading a committee in congress. >> sure. what did you think about what you heard?

>> i liked what i heard. i came in here undecided, and now i'm really leaning heavily toward rick santorum.ç >> that impressive? >> yes. >> is a social conservative very important to you in this race? >> yes, it is. >> and where do you think iowa is going to fall in this caucus? >> oh, i don't know. >> it's too tough to call? >> right. >> what did you think? >> i like rick santorum. i will be supporting him in the iowa caucus on january 3rd. >> were you of that mindset before you came in? >> i was leaning towards him. i hadn't quite made my mind up yet because there are other candidates very similar to him. but from what i've seen that was enough to put me solidly in his corner. >> so he closed the deal today? >> yes. >> just a flavor of the crowd in iowa. musketine, iowa. a city with a rich, progressive history. congressman steve king. everybody wants his endorsement. the iowa congressman good friends with michele bachmann. he says today that ron paul is dangerous and rick santorum will

surprise. but when you go to these meetings, they're not rallies. these folks are serious. they show up. they're curious. they're looking for information. they want to be sold. they want to ask questions. they're not there to rah, rah at all. they are really inspecting and overhauling all of these candidates when it comes to information to find out exactly who is the best choice. and there are a lot of undecideds that are out there. for every person that i have found on the ground in iowa ready to say i support such and such a candidate, i find someone who says i haven't made up my mind yet. good cross-section there in musketine, iowa. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's question, do you think rick santorum can pull off an upset in the iowa caucus? text a for yes and text b for nç to 622639. you can always go to our blog at ed.msnbc.com. and we'll bring you the results later on tonight. now, three of the people that i talked to after santorum's

presentation today told me that they had made up their mind that he was the guy that they wanted. and then i think about how many counties rick santorum has been to in iowa. i mean, if that is a microcosm of what he's running into in county after county, he might surprise. he just might surprise. he's not getting the crowds that romney's getting. and he's not getting the crowds that ron paul is getting. we'll talk more about that later on in the program. the polls show the race closer than ever in iowa. but the wheels have completely fallen off one campaign. john nicholls of the "nation" magazine and rick green of the "des moines register" will join me later in the program. and the economy is looking up as the obama administration plans their footh victory in 2012. the president's secretary of agriculture and former iowa governor tom vilsack will join me to talk about what's happening on the ground and what's the landscape for jobs. that's next.

you'd have, like, a ton of dollars. but how are they saving you those dollars? a lot of companies might answer "um" or "no comment." then there's esurance. born online, raised by technology, and majors in efficiency. so whatever they save, you save. hassle, time, paperwork, hair-tearing-out, and, yes, especially dollars. esurance. insurance for the modern world. click or call.

coming up, more from the campaign trail in iowa with rick green of the "des moines register" and john nicholls of the "nation" magazine. ron paul gets an endorsement from a radical pastor, raw story's mike rogers on what this latest controversy means for éhd ron paul campaign. and later, our political panel will weigh in on the republican field, voters' rights, and more. tweet us your thoughts throughout the show using the hashtag "ed show." we'll be right back.

in the republican race to win iowa. an average of the latest polling shows mitt romney and ron paul all tied up. newt gingrich and rick santorum are nearly tied for third placeç meanwhile, one campaign is experiencing i guess what you could call a total meltdown. kent sorenson, the iowa state

chair for michele bachmann, endorsed ron paul last night hours after appearing at a campaign event with bachmann. bachmann accused sorenson of taking a large sum of money to work for ron paul. sorenson says her charge is absolutely false. >> the fact of the matter is i did not accept any money from the ron paul campaign. >> but you know, as you know, accept is different than offered. and i want to make clear you're also saying they never offered it? no one, not ron paul, not anyone affiliated with ron paul's campaign or supporting his campaign offered you any money to support ron paul? >> i was never offered a nickel from the ron paul campaign. >> during sorenson's interview it seemed like the bachmann campaign was keeping a close eye on him. take a look at the bachmann truck in the background, as well as the bachmann campaign bus, just happened to be rolling by. there's nothing like a do or die election to bring out the paranoia in politicians. more than interesting.

let's turn to rick green. he is the vice president and editor of the "des moines register" newspaper. also with us tonight, john nicholls, washington correspondent for the "nation" magazine, who has spent quite a bit of time on the ground in iowa as well. gentlemen, great to have you with us. i've got to start out with this. nbc news is confirming that bachmann's political director, who defended kent sorenson yesterday, is also gone from her campaign. rick green, have we ever seen one unfold as fast as it is for michele bachmann?ç i mean, her campaign, what will her supporters do in these final days? what do you think? >> you know, it's amazing how quickly things can deteriorate. there's an expression out here in the midwest about iowa nice. i think what we've seen in the past 24 hours if not the past week and a half, two weeks or so, you can kind of throw that idea out the window. not a big surprise in terms of all the jockeying that's going on. we've seen a $10 million advertising blitz hit the airwaves out here. and i'll tell you, the majority of it has been very, very

negative. it's not something that iowans see very often during these cycles. the candidates as well as the super pacs have put a totally different spin on this race. and i think we're starting to see the effects of it. there are candidates like former speaker gingrich that has really, really taken a big slide, and i'm convinced abig part of that is some of this negative advertising that's been out there. >> as far as michele bachmann is concerned, she does a lot of, you know, quick stops. she goes to a lot of places in a day's schedule, spends ten minutes here, 15 minutes there. and from what i can see, iowa voters, they want more. i saw that yesterday at ron paul's event. i saw it today at rick santorum's event. do you think this also plays into her negative polling? what do you think, rick? >> well, you know, retail politics is the bread and butter out here. even mitt romney, who is very sporadic in terms of visiting the state, has recognized that. he's gone and launched a bus-capade to take his name

across the hawkeye state. but his strategy's a lot different than michele bachmann's. bachmann launched a very ambitious 99-county ten-day tour just before christmas. she's certainly hitting all the spots.ç but you're right, they're just quick in and out visits. romney's been more deliberate. he's spending more time in places. and we've seen greater crowds for him the past couple days. we think today i think he hit three or four stops and saw about 1,000 people. 15, 30-minute conversations. and the crowds seemingly are reacting to him. it's more than just making a cameo, ed. i think that the voters want to see you but they want to hear you. they want to understand your vision for what it is for not only iowa but obviously for the rest of the country. >> well, you know your state as well as anybody, rick, and i saw that today. these people that show up, they're curious, they want answers, and they want to spend time with the candidate. john nicholls, that's exactly what rick santorum has been doing in his campaign. but i want to talk about the bachmann supporters. would they go to santorum or

would they go to rick perry? what are you hearing? >> what i'm hearing is a very strong tendency toward santorum. rick perry has worked hard in this state, and he's still working hard. stopping today at coffee shops and restaurants across the state. in much the same way that bachmann is. but both bachmann and perry seem to be kind of on a desperation, you know, last attempt to find somebody who might support them. santorum seems to be very much on the rise. and his last advertising hit right now goes to that message. unite, let's get our social conservatives together. he's using quotes from conservatives like glenn beck and rush limbaugh as regards his candidacy. so he's really trying to unite the social conservatives. and i think the bachmann people will hear that. to my mind the decision of ç bachmann's campaign leader to go over to the paul campaign doesn't really help ron paul.

it probably helps santorum because it makes bachmann look weak. but there aren't a lot of bachmann poom who are necessarily going to go to ron paul. so on so many levels i think santorum's doing well. >> well, john, also the polls make it look like romney will finish at least in the top two. is this big trouble if he doesn't meet expectations here? >> it's absolutely -- it is high-stakes stuff. i heard all through the day today that romney's people were going back and forth on whether they should position him in iowa on tuesday night or have him be in new hampshire. struggling with the question of whether he should be here to claim a big victory or get out fast to avoid any embarrassment. that's how high stakes this is. and remember, the dynamic of the caucuses are such that if you see the gingrich support and the santorum support come together

and then throw in some bachmann and perry numbers there, santorum could well finish very high up in that number. >> and rick green, i've got to ask you, can you explain ron paul's position in iowa? i mean, i listened to him yesterday, and it's all about the constitution, and it's pretty radical stuff beyond that. and he's gotten some endorsements that are more than controversial. how do you explain his position in iowa with the polls there? >> you know, i think what's interesting is that there is a certain slice of iowan voters who really are appealed -- are really turned on by what it is ç that representative paul is talking about, particularly that little libertarian streak. a smaller government, we're going to whack a trillion dollars out of the budget the first year he's in office. we're going to look closely at our foreign relations and military bases overseas. i think that there's a group of folks who think that's the right thing to do. here's where i think it's going to come down, ed. i think you're going to see romney and paul duking it out

for the first spot, santorum, perry, and -- santorum, perry, and gingrich fighting for the second place, third place. >> okay. rick green, john nichols, great to have you with us tonight. and rick, we'll be looking forward to your poll coming out, your infamous poll over the weekend. we're waiting to see how that all plays out. thanks so much for joining us. ron paul's latest fringe supporter, a reverend who believes homosexuals should be executed. and more of my interview with rick santorum. i'll ask him about the new voter i.d. laws going into effect. what does he think of them? he insists it's not voter suppression. stay tuned. fmf]n]

welcome back to "the ed show." the ron paul campaign has landed the endorsement of a reverend whose beliefs are absolutely jaw dropping. the reverend phillip g. kaiser thinks homosexuals should be executed. but the paul campaign was thrilled to get reverend kaiser's endorsement.ç puttinging on their website, saying in a press release on paul's website, "we welcome reverend kayser's endorsement and the enlightening statements he makes on how ron paul's approach to government is consistent with christian beliefs." but later paul's camp scrubbed the news of kayser's endorsement from its website. no explanation was given. it turns out reverend kayser is in favor of what he calls biblical law, including the execution of homosexuals. he has written about it.

"as we have seen," he says, "while many homosexuals would be executed, the threat of capital punishment can be restorative." kayser confirmed all of this when contacted and interviewed by talkingpointsmemo. he said he didn't see much hope for it happening anytime soon. but he did say, "under a ron paul presidency states would be freed up to not have political correctness imposed on them." i'm joined tonight by mike rogers, managing director of rawstory.com. mike, good to have you with us tonight. the paul campaign welcomed the reverend's endorsement. now, we're talking about a reverend who makes extremists look tame by comparison. what do you make of this, and is this damaging? >> well, i think that this is typical ron paul. you know, we've seen him kind of disavow things he said in the past. he likes to work this kind of what he wants to market as a kind of libertarianism.

but this you see is the end result. he wants to free up states to be able to do things like this reverend wants. so it's no surprise that he touted his endorsement and then with the sheer insanity of such statements i think that the pressure came that he had to get it down. >> do you think that the paul camp just didn't vet the ç reverend very well and maybe they didn't know he had said that? >> oh, i don't -- i wouldn't be so convinced totally. i mean, there is the chance that they didn't do the proper work. we've seen them falter time and time again. but we've seen him make these statements and then kind of backtrack time and time again. so i think that there might actually be a strategy out there in which he throws out this kind of incendiary stuff because he knows it fires up that base. but in reality what happens is he pretends that it's this whole libertarian kind of thing. but what he wants to do is just take those rights and the civil rights that have been afforded and throw it back to state control. for example, lawrence v. texas is a great example. he wants the state of texas to

basically make being gay illegal if they want to. and we hope there's a higher court, the supreme court that will stop that from happening under a ron paul presidency. >> yeah. this is pretty much in the context of paul trying to disavow other extreme positions in these newsletters years ago that are now dogging his campaign. paul wants to be bold, but he also seems to attract, you know, a fringe element that's out there. and it is out in iowa. the guy does have support. he's getting massive crowds compared to the other candidates. what do you make of all of this? >> well, i think a lot of it is pretty kind of crazy marketing. because what he's really hoping for is a kind of reconstructionist growth where christian law and the bible are what become one law with the civil law. it's interesting. these are the guys who screamed the most about the infringement of sharia law supposedly coming to our country, but what they want, or what michele bachmann ç went to call for to learn was

how do we take these laws and make our laws as a civil society more in line with biblical teachings? and i think that those are the people that ron paul is trying to signal by this. and it puts out the kind of message that he looks for in a positive way and then has to backtrack as we've seen time and time again. i think he's feeding the fire and knows what he's doing with that. >> well, we should point out that paul's iowa state director, his name is mike heath, he's got plenty of baggage of his own. he tried to out gay members of the maine legislature according to talking points memo. and he's now focusing on paul's outreach to the christian right in iowa. interesting track record and assignment, don't you think? >> well, it is. again, it's kind of these dirty political tricks. and of course we've talked about these issues before. and people like you who cover them in a responsible way. and then we see folks like ron paul and the people who are following him, and it's all -- it shows the kind of followers that he has there, just a little

bit off center, that -- >> do you think -- i've got to ask you quickly before we go, do you think that ron paul needs to make a statement on gay marriage? does he need to make a very crystal clear on how he feels about the gay community in this country? in the wake of this endorsement. >> i think he does. and what he'll say is i don't think the government should be involved in marriage. what we really need to realize is he doesn't think the federal government should be involved in guaranteeing rights. he believes that every state should be able to discriminate. >> yeah. mike rogers, great to have you with us. good to have you on the program. >> thank you. and later, more of my interview with rick santorum. he shares his views on voter suppression and gives his thoughts on other candidates.

stay tuned.

as republicans tear each other apart in iowa, the obama re-election campaign is increasingly optimistic about their chances in 2012. president obama's campaign manager, jim messina released a fund-raising video today where he explains several possible roads to re-election. he says they have planned out more than 40 pathways to victory. in an election about jobs and the economy it seems president obama has momentum on his side. the american people are starting to realize the economy is improving. a new a.p. poll shows 62% of americans are optimistic about the country in 2012. 78% are personally hopeful about the coming year. a pew study finds that 67% of people in this country have a positive view of the term "progressive."ç making it the most positively

viewed political label in america. folks are right to be optimistic about where this country is headed because the numbers of people applying for unemployment has dropped 10% since january. the unemployment rate is at its lowest level in almost three years. a lot can happen between now and november. but the tide seems to be turning to the president's favor. joining me tonight is president obama's secretary of agriculture and former iowa, the state of -- state of iowa, the former governor, tom vilsack. mr. vilsack, good to have you with us tonight. good to see you. i hope everything's going well for you on the holidays. >> absolutely, ed. and happy new year to you. >> well, i've been in -- thank you. i've been in your state the last couple of days, and there's a real examination taking place by iowa voters. how much do they put on these job numbers, how much emphasis do they put on jobs and the economy versus the central issues that seem to be so important in the middle of the country?

what do you think? >> well, i think generally, ed, iowa voters if you take a look at the broad spectrum, not just republican caucusgoers but all iowans, are very interested in what's happening in rural america and in rural iowa. we've got the best farm economy we've had in 40 years. we have unemployment dropping in rural areas around the country and in iowa at a faster rate than anyplace else in the country. we've got record exports. we've got more manufacturing jobs with farm implements being purchased by farmers. so there's a lot of good news beginning to percolate out in the countryside. and we'll continue to see strong commodity prices. so there should be a strong ag economy in 2012. 1 out of every 12 jobs connected to agriculture.ç so as agriculture goes, certainly in iowa so goes the economy generally. so i think things are beginning to look up and people are optimistic about 2012. >> well, it is good times in agriculture right now in america. and that ag dollar turns 11 times on main street. it means an awful lot to a lot

of other businesses. but here is ron paul. he is polling well in your state of iowa. and yet he doesn't want any kind of farm program. he doesn't want any kind of subsidies. how does that mix with the folks in iowa? >> well, again, he's speaking to a very narrow band of individuals who will be caucusgoers. there are several different caucuses going on at one time in iowa. you've got the libertarian caucus. you've got the evangelical caucus. and i think congressman paul has been speaking primarily to those libertarians with some success. i'm not sure that it's necessarily a message that would resonate with all iowans. clearly, there has to be support. there has to be a safety net for farmers when there are tough times. >> well, he doesn't want to have a safety net. he says it's the free market. it will be interesting to see how the rural vote goes on caucus night. now, with bachmann and perry and santorum splitting up social conservatives, what does that mean for mitt romney? the crowd -- the field is pretty crowded when it comes to social conservative candidates. is this to romney and paul's benefit?

>> well, i think clearly governor romney's going to have the people he had in 2008. i'm not sure that he's necessarily grown that number, which is why he's pretty well stuck between 25% and 27%, 28%. that may be enough to be successful. certainly, ron paul's got some very good numbers. and there has been movement toward santorum in the last ç several days. so it could be a very interesting tuesday. >> how do you see these undecided voters turn? what does turn an undecided voter in iowa? >> well, again, ed, when we're talking about republicans, i'm obviously not an expert in terms of republican politics. but i think a lot of it has to do with whether or not you have a passion and a feeling for a candidate, a relationship with a candidate, which is what will prompt you to come out on a cold night and spend a couple of hours with your neighbors at a caucus. it may very well be that some of these undecided folks just decide to stay home. they may not be able to choose among these various candidates.

or they may. you may see some surprises on tuesday. >> yeah. you know those numbers you were throwing out and the state of agriculture in this country right now, it would seem to me that president obama could just barnstorm through the midwest and say things are pretty good in our administration. what about that? >> you can look at ag exports, a record. you can look at conservation, acres enrolled, a record. income a record. unemployment going down at a fast rate. i think there is a story to tell. and certainly we're happy to talk about it. it's not just our administration. it's a lot of hard work by farmers and ranchers. but it's a good story and it's a positive story. >> mr. secretary, tom vilsack, good to have you with us tonight. thanks for your time. appreciate it. new voter i.d. laws will have a huge impact on next year's election. what does rick santorum have to say about it? find out next. uyjl6ns'4m4oxl,f3+

r.t. rybak, msnbc analyst richard wolff, and professor caroline hellman will all join me. don't forget to tweet us your thoughts during the show using the hashtag "edshow." stay tuned.

welcome back to "the ed show." rick santorum is surging in iowa. could be a surpriser. and earlier i asked him about the new voter i.d. laws being passed in several states around the country, pushed by conservative governors, santorum says requiring folks to show a photo i.d. is not voter suppression. take a look. >> 21 million americans voted in the last election that did not have a voter i.d. -- a photo i.d. do you think that's what it takes? i mean, if someone comes up with a utility bill to prove, you know, their residence and prove that they are -- >> how do the people who don't have those photo i.d.s -- don't have photo i.d.s, how do they buy cigarettes? how do they buy, you know, alcohol? how do they get on an airplane?

there are so many things in america today that you have to have a photo i.d. i don't know how you can almost -- how can you survive in america without it? >> so you don't view that as restrictive at all?ç >> well, if it was a unique qualifier and if it wasn't such a pervasive requirement now in our society, to be able to show an i.d. that says who you are, it's hard for me to believe that there is that type of, you know, number of folks in america that don't have it. i'm not that familiar with state laws, but i suspect that if you are a resident you could probably go in and get some sort of photo i.d. from the state in order to qualify to vote if you don't have one already. and in fact, i would say that states should do that. >> let's turn to r.t. rybak, mayor of minneapolis and also vice chair of the dnc. msnbc political analyst richard wolff is with us tonight. and professor caroline hellman, professor of politics at occidental college. professor, let me ask you first. you know, there's been a slew of recent reports of folks denied

photo i.d.s because they don't have the necessary documentation to obtain one. so what do you make of the senator's answer? >> well, he's using republican partisan talking points. he is appealing to middle-class americans, many of whom or all of whom pretty much have voter i.d. but the difference between buying cigarettes and hopping on a plane is those are not constitutionally protected rights and voting is. and we know according to the brennan center study that 11% of americans don't have a photo %)ó requirements for various reasons. whether they're elderly, whether they're students who have student i.d.s and are not driving. we also know that a disproportionately affects blacks and latinos. so it's a real problem when it comes to demobilizing people of color. so it's disingenuous for him to say it's not voter suppression. >> well, the laws affect the poor and minorities ç disproportionately, as you said. and i pressed the senator on that issue. here it is. >> what do you say to minority groups who say that, you know, people don't have

transportation, they're destitute, they don't have money, they really don't have the means to engage in going out and getting a photo i.d., it's not as easy -- and you talked about poverty in there. you've worked with poverty -- >> i've worked with poverty, yeah. >> and people view this as voter suppression. >> well, i don't view this as voter suppression. and i would make it as easy as possible from the standpoint of the states and the standpoint of cost to have photo i.d.s available if people come in and prove their identity. and be able to get some sort of i.d. that would allow them to vote. >> mayor rybak, does this man know what he's talking about when it comes to this issue? your thoughts. >> flat out no. i'm a mayor. i understand this. and the fact of the matter is these last two presidential elections have had more voter identification and surveying than any other elections in american history and there's no widespread voter fraud, period. i've registered people on election day. we've gotten people to the polls. this is another republican tactic that just says they don't want people of color and young

people to vote. and you know, i'm here in iowa, and the reality is the republican candidates have all been here. they've been spending millions of bucks. they can't get anybody to fall in love with them. and they want to try to win an election by having fewer people vote. especially fewer people who happen to be those who are people of color and younger people. it's another ploy. and we need to get back to the real issues. >> richard, what kind of an effect is this going to have on the election? >> well, you're talking about states frankly where republicans are already strong. but i just want to take this ç back a bit. people weren't talking on fox news about voter fraud when president bush was in power. these voter fraud stories, so-called stories, popped up because they just couldn't believe how big president obama won in 2008. so they had to concoct some kind of story. it's interesting that santorum doesn't come up with any evidence. he just figures that people are catching planes all the time, right? and if you're on a plane you need an i.d., as if that's what everyone does in this country. well, no, not everyone takes a plane, and that's not the same

kind of burden of proof. and frankly, if rick santorum smoked or drank he might also not get checked for his i.d. at his age if he goes to a liquor store. so it's not realistic. but you've got to understand where it's coming from. and it came from a situation, especially in these deep red states, where they just cannot understand why anyone would have voted for obama in the first place. so it must be fraud, right? >> r.t. rybak, richard, and also caroline, professor, stay with us. panel, stay with us. we've got more coming up. coming up, more with rick santorum. why did the republican candidate spend time with the most liberal guy on msnbc? i mean, why did he do that? stay with us.

[ gargling ] oo-ay-ow. savings. savings. savings? progressive was the first to offer online quoting. you can do better. first to show comparison rates. ding! the "name your price" tool. oh! gosh, don't mind if i do. who was the first to offer pet injury coverage? we were.

and when did you know you wanted to sell insurance? i said i wouldn't cry. um... whee! it's flo time. now, that's progressive. call or click today. do you think rick santorum can pull off an upset in the iowa caucus? 30% of you said yes. 70% said no. coming up, rick santorum makes his case for the social conservative vote. stay tuned. and more with our panel.

a little history. mike huckabee won the iowa caucus just four years ago as a social conservative. he had the ground game going and an organization to come out on top. but now that pie is fractured quite a bit. how does rick santorum beat a michele bachmann or a rick perry? here's his answer. >> if you look at the candidates who have the chance to actually go on, to erick erickson's point, to go on and actually be successful, well, is it a congresswoman who represents a heavily republican district who

has to fight every year to win that district? is it a governor from texas who, you know, governed as reasonably conservatively in a state that's a very conservative state, who never had to get the moderates or independents to vote for to win, or is it someone who governed as a conservative, who had a 90-plus percent rating in the senate as a conservative and win two tough elections in pen. i think that's the best person who has the track record to show you have what it takes to be able to get the voters in the states that are necessary to win this presidency. >> let's bring back our panel. minneapolis mayor r.t. rybak. also msnbc analyst richard wolffe and professor caroline heldman. r.t., do you agree with that assessment by the former senator? is that the right game plan and the right approach? what's your analysis? >> i'd agree that santorum's got experience in pennsylvania and won a couple elections. i think he kind of got ridden

out on a rail there come to think of it. so i don't think he could guarantee he could cover it. but the fact of the matter is ç when you're here on the ground in iowa you can really see that none of these people are catching on. when you look at santorum, he's gone to every part of the state and is barely moving. now he's finally starting to get a little traction. romney's the big thing, though. romney now is saying that he's going to win this thing. and yet after five years and many millions of dollars and many more millions from his friends to attack people the guy's barely cracking 20%. so after five years and that much money, 80% of the state's not going to support him. >> but richard, if you look -- you know, richard, if you look at the way bachmann's campaign is on the fade, newt gingrich is not on a roll in any stretch of the imagination, you see an uptick by santorum. could he rally and be -- he's asking people to unite as social conservatives. i mean, could he be the dark

horse here? >> yeah, i think he could be, actually. he is rising at this late stage. it's very volatile. there's enough days in this race, and things are moving by the day where people could -- at least the social conservatives could coalesce around him. you could see a top three of paul, romney, and santorum. and if santorum is nipping at romney's heels enough, it could become a real embarrassment for romney. so he could be a factor. can he win at this point? i think there's just too much ground to make up. >> i asked santorum why he agreed to talk to me, the lefty on msnbc. here's what he had to say. >> is it gut-wrenching to do an interview with the most liberal guy on msnbc? >> hopefully, you've seen i've enjoyed it. you know? >> the other candidates don't. >> it's so funny. when i first started this, we hired some people on to our staff and i would do a radio shoç and they'd say, now, we've lined up calls to make sure -- i said, don't you ever do that again. i said, i want the tough calls. give me the toughest questions you have. because those are the questions

that people have in their mind. >> caroline, what about his exposure? he doesn't have the money that the other candidates do. is he just in a position where he's got to interview with everybody? >> i would very much agree with that assessment, ed. i think he's surging but he's so far behind the other candidates. his surge is mostly due to prominent evangelicals endorsing him. and the fact that he is able to distinguish himself somewhat from bachmann and perry, who are sliding. but i still think he's got such a tough road ahead of him because you've got three candidates on top -- >> no, it's dialing the phone. >> richard, how do you call it one week out? >> i think ron paul is easily underestimated. he's got an organization that is passionate among his supporters. he's got an unusual coalition. mitt romney, you know, the one thing you've got to discount at this point is the size of crowds. it's like a restaurant on a saturday night. if it's not full, they've got a problem. a small crowd is a sign of something. but everyone should be with a

full crowd. i think paul and romney are up there one and two and the question is who comes third. >> well, the way i see it is that if the social conservatives come together -- you know, mike huckabee won this thing with just 40,000 votes back in 2008. if they come together on one candidate, i tell you, it's going to be really, really close. and then of course professor, i think a lot of it has to do with the youth vote. which candidate do you think is going to appeal to the youth vote and mobilize them when theç need them? >> well, looking at the data so far, it's very clear that ron paul is appealing to the youth vote much more than the other candidates. but i actually think that mitt romney is quite strong in iowa. he did not spend the same amount of time and resource there's as he did four years ago. and yet he's still on top. he's really looking at new hampshire. but he's pulled in some heavy hitters like chris christie to do the lifting for him in iowa. and he's still on top, which means that even though he hasn't been putting in the big effort he's still up there