last year we took dozens of trips using membership rewards points to meet with farmers that gr our t potatoes and merchants that sell our product. vo: get the card built for business spending. call 1-800-now-open to find out how the gold card can serve your business. hello, from new york, i am chris hayes. in tucson, arizona, today congressman gabby giffords and others will mark the one-year anniversary of the shooting there. the republican presidential candidates are in new hampshire today preparing at this moment for this morning's nbc facebook debate which you can see here in one hour from now. it's 13 hours after the previous republican debate, but this will be better.

joining me is the staff writer for salon.com. and then we have msnbc contributor, maria kumar returning to "up," and john randolph, host of underground railroad here in new york, and you can find him online where jay has a bunch of video commentaries that you check out, and it's some of the most insightful things you can find on the internet. the republican candidates met last night for the first televised debate in 2012. although mitt romney did not say much, he may have walked away a stronger candidate when he arrived because the five men standing between him and the

presidency attacked each other. one of the most interesting exchanges was ron paul and rick santorum. here is ron paul pointing out rick santorum's spending record. >> what really counts is his record. he's a big government and big spending individual, because he preached the fact that he wanted to balance the budget but raised the debt to five times. he voted along with no child left behind to double the size of the department of education, and he also voted to -- for a prescription drug program. he's a big government person. >> ron, i am a conservative and not a libertarian. i believe in some government. i do believe that government, that as a senator from pennsylvania, i had a responsibility to go out there and represent the interest of my state and that's what i did to make sure that pennsylvania was able to get its fair share of money back. >> one of the things we talked about on tuesday night.

we were doing a special version of "up" after the results came in from iowa, and as we saw one of the things interesting is santorum's record is the opposite of ron paul in a certain kind of axis, and that's he is associated with the tea party center view as big party government. and there's a fascinating exchange, you run up the debt, and you have to raise the debt ceiling. no kidding. and he also -- he defended his earmarks. i thought it was an interesting exchange. what it said to me that rick santorum had come in so close to the top is that the tea party's stated vision of government is much less important than the good old-fashioned christian

conservatism. and somebody that worked in the administration, i am curious of what you made of it? >> i am surprised rick santorum's success had to do with the grassroots campaign, but -- >> you are saying because he camped out there for two years. >> he put in the time. rick santorum spent the time in in contrast with ron paul here, i think ron paul is correct that rick santorum has an election year and he is spending and otherwise he might be a fiscal conservative. and it's hard for santorum to counter ron paul, because it's so strong as one of the principal politicians in washington. he doesn't take a pension. >> but he does do earmarks. >> he would have been entitled to $80,000 a year in pension, and he refused it saying it was

morally corrupt. >> rick santorum said, ron, you vote against everything. >> ron paul votes against every bill that comes before him. >> i think that happened last night, santorum defined himself, i am not a libertarian, and i am an evangelical conservative. he is not looking at the new hampshire debate as a place to win, all of his messages, if you drill down he is looking at south carolina. he is looking at south carolina on the issues of race, class, and christianity he is doing it very subtly. >> with the exception of chris anti- he is adamant.

>> well, santorum has no problem with big government as long as it subscribes to his belief set. he wants to deck tate what is being taught. santorum home schools all of his children and gets a huge sum of money for sending them to online charter schools. >> we were debating this, and is santorum's strong finish a case in which he's a stronger candidate than people realize, or he just timed it right? newt gingrich came around too early, and so of course somebody has a point, he lost his last election because of the home schooling money -- >> some of the rise and fall is timing. it just happens to be his turn and that was right before iowa. yes, maybe he has no chance, but it's not like his positions --

it's just a matter of emphasis when it comes to the stuff that the iowa voters are voting on. do they hate barack obama abortion or big government more? >> i think a lot of it was timing. on tuesday night, compared to the standard that has been set in the rest of the campaign system, his speech looked masterful. >> well, he was reduced to one point to resighting the lyrics to "america the beautiful." >> and santorum, he might be able to grasp an opportunity, but then he got side tracked, and then the clip that dominated his week was this endless method i am going to prove i am captain

of the debate team and the argument against gay marriage. >> folks, if you have not been tracking this week, he has had a rough week in new hampshire, and part of it has been transferring. his appeal is to both religious catholics and evangelicals, and conservative religious christians. in new hampshire, he has had a hard time transferring that into the more secular, more libertarian, and he got a question about gay marriage compared to polygamy. >> he is not playing for new hampshire. he sees the bigger play in south carolina. the only person playing in new hampshire is huntsman. if he doesn't win that he's toast. santorum, while he lost, he lost during a different time in america. i would compare where we are

right here in america, people feeling very absolute of losing jobs, and they don't understand what is happening in their world, and santorum is feeding on fear of what is happening. that's why he is beating up on the right. >> i can see what you are saying. it may be effective for the base in south carolina, but at this stage in the game electability is trumping all other candidates. each of the candidates needed to pierce the bubble of electability. mitt romney is winning because people believe he can win. >> that's a good point. when we see the polling and people say when you poll republicans does it matter whether somebody can win or stick to principle. win something high. the debt ceiling deal was stick to principle, but this one the polling is more --

>> i think santorum is doing okay right now. ron paul does stand for principle and you listen to all the debate talk and campaign stuff and it's a bunch much bable and bable, and nobody is saying anything. the foreign policy is -- it's interesting to me that ron paul's foreign policy is seen as the most problematic part of his platform by so many people and it's the part people should be listening to because it resinates with the american public. and republicans and democrats don't want another war in iran. this an rc robotic claw. my high school science teacher made me what i am today. our science teacher helped us build it. ♪

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♪ so ron paul, you were defending ron paul just now and particularly first let's talk about the foreign policy temperature. there's a lot of views that ron paul has. what i found interesting last night is the degree of warmongering around iran. and santorum said it was one of the most important issues. it's not smart politically in the general. i was curious to hear you say you were against all -- >> i feel like -- i am not down playing the threat of the iran government obtaining nuclear weapons, but i think it's been

over played and it's because foreign policy had success with capturing bin laden, and i just hi the idea that we need to have one of two options as newt gingrich has put it, we can go israel go at it alone nuclear, or we can engage in a conventional war, and that's pretty insane. we do not need a conventional war in iran right now. >> i am happy to hear you say that. >> what does it mean? the relationship with maliki in iraq is so bad right now, you have no american troops in iraq right now. there are so many scenarios that could play out very, very badly. as much as i think it's a threat, all this talk now trains

really badly when the politics are over and it comes down to war or not. >> what is motivating all the chest beating? >> i think it's important, but i think right now it's politically advantageous. >> well, it's something where they can beat up the president. >> it plays well with democrats and republicans, because you get outside of the foreign policy, and you know, the republican foreign policy establishment also, and it's an elite world is that really disconnected from what i think rank and file voters in america believe. >> let me just say, a pushback on the democrats and obama going with the pentagon, and the real hawks wanted more troops left, but it doesn't happen. >> well, he doesn't have his

legs when mcchrystal game through. biden lost that argument. >> i think that it's a much more complicated thing to say he's with the hawks. >> but he is doing this for two reasons. the republicans are doing this for two reasons. they want the specter of the 1980 elections, jimmy carter, and the more they can marry obama with carter and his failure, they can then flex muscle. and president obama cut military spending and went to the pentagon and did it. so is he going to do the same thing and put us in the same thing as jimmy carter did. >> it's projected spending. >> yeah, right, it's projected. >> it should be noted it's far above the military spending when push took over. we had such a massive increase

overt last ten years, can you cut from the projection and be double almost what we were spending. i want to turn to another aspect of ron paul's issue of statements. he had a thing called the ron paul's news letter, and there's a twitter handle that tweets quotes from the ron paul news letter which is awful and lots of racist stuff and gay stuff, and a lot of disgusting comments. he has said that he did not write them and ae did not know what was going on under his name, and last night he was pressed on this and pressed on his racial attitudes, and he pressed on and here is a clip of it. >> more importantly, you ought to ask me what my relationship is for racial relationships and one of my heroes is martin luther king because he practiced the libertarian peaceful civil disobedience, as did rosa parks

did. also, i am the only one up here and in the democratic party that understands true racism in the country, and it has to do with enforcing the drug laws. look at the percentages. the percentage of people who use drugs are about the same with blacks and whites, and yet the blacks are arrested way disproportionately, and they are prosecuted and imprisoned way disproportiona disproportionately. >> ron paul will say things in a debate where i say, dude, you are at a republican debate -- >> in new hampshire. >> yeah, and 80% of white americans in their views on race, particularly the african-americans, there are some spectrum of consciousness versus racism, and ron paul is occupying both ends of the spectrum. he is occupying in the news

letters the most ugly racist kind of attitudes, and with the drug war, the most conscious. it's bizarre politically, but how do you make sense of it? i am curious what your response is to that response to paul on his news letters? >> i thought that clip says why i don't want him as the nominee. he is never sufficiently answered for the news letters, and the answer he gave here, some of my best black friends are libertarians. >> martin luther king was a huge libertarian. >> and the civil rights legislation was contrariy to the libertarian beliefs. >> and his son wants to revokes -- >> before you give a defense, i want to hear his finished

answer. >> well, the war on drugs, it's a breath of fresh air for either one in either party to speak about that on such a big age. he's the voice of reason so often, i feel like this stage of the primary season is sort of like the tryout episodes of "american idol." you put all the focus on the outlandish candidates that don't have a shot, but ron paul out of all of those -- >> it's youtube clip fodder. >> it's like why doesn't a wealthy white person ever get the electric chair? >> i don't think it's just white republican voters. i think it's a huge mow nmt terms of debate history. i thought it was a brave and honest answer given at a debate, and he should be given credit for his actions, but not for the words of the news letters, and

that sacrificed what ron paul probably believes in, and a physician never took medicaid or medicare -- >> i don't want to -- i think the news letter speak for themselves on two levels, in terms of if you think that ron paul believed in those things -- three possibilities. if you think they believed in those things, that's disqualifying. if you belief in them, and he wanted it for gain, that's disqualifying. if you believe he had no idea what was going on under his name, that's disqualifying, because managing a news letter is a fairly small product, and so you can't manage your news letter properly, that's disqualifying. in terms of the role he plays in the debate on this issue, i agree that was one of the most remarkable moments i have seen

in a debate on the republican or democratic side. that was the most full frontal attack on the drug war and the racial inequities invented in it. let's talk more about ron paul and the republican field, and i want to get to the excellent reporting on birth control right after this. get ahead of it! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defend against digestive issues with three strains of good bacteria. hit me! [ female announcer ] live the regular life. phillips'. but last year my daughter was checking up on me. i wasn't eating well. she's a dietitian, and she suggested i try boost complete nutritional drink to help get the nutrition i was missing. now i drink it every day and i love the great taste. [ female announcer ] boost has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to help keep bones strong and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. and our great taste is guaranteed or your money back. learn more at boost.com. [ dad ] i choose great taste. i choose boost.

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to decide. >> that's rick santorum talking about birth control, the griswold case, the case that preceded roe. there was a law in connecticut banning contraception, and a couple was prosecuted under the law and they appealed that, and it was struck down. now, rick santorum said that, and you wrote a piece set with the headline, rick santorum is coming for your birth control. that headline was read to him by another denial, and that reporter said that denial is good enough for her. defend yourself against people that are saying that you overstated the case about whether rick santorum is or is not coming for your birth control. >> anyone of the praurngs of s

his -- >> he will be showing up at your door and knocking on it presumably. >> it sets the bar, come on. i think he would like to see that world. but it's not an academic question. griswold? that's something that was said it was wrongly decided and that was enough to get him out in terms of the supreme court nominee. it's lawrence versus texas and -- >> of course, the sodomy case, yes. >> we know how rick santorum feels about saw feels about sodomy. >> that was awkward, yes. >> but they have to do for example, defunding planned parent hood, where rick santorum

and mitt romney want to do that, and it's opposing the fact that the affordable care act has coverage for contraceptive, and they oppose that, and not being able to afford contraception is the same thing for not having access to contraception. the last thing, we remember in mississippi, where they voted on the personhood amendment. next year it will be on a lot of ballots. they are thinking we did it twice in colorado, and the second time we had two points more. they think the iud and in some cases the birth control pill is abortion, and it's not crazy to say states want to ban it. one of the works against it is griswold.

>> i think if you tell the voters of the world in america, as your president, i do not want you using contraception because in the words of rick santorum, it gives you a way to do things in a sexual way that are not right -- >> i have a question about that, though. does that include condoms? >> for rick santorum it does, but personhood, no. i did not mention rick santorum's personal belief does include condoms, but from a policy perspective, they have not specifically gone after condo condoms. >> mitt romney, we were talking about electability. he is not a fool and he understands -- he understands where america is on birth control, and i think it's at his matter in public opinion -- >> thanks santorum for bringing it back.

>> no state wants to ban contraception. that's kind of a silty thing, i think, what you are asking -- >> hold on a second. you went to harvard law school and you know very well -- >> has the supreme court decided that a state does not have the right to provide a contraception -- >> yes, they have. in 1965. >> i believe the law of the land is spoken by the supreme court and if we disagree with the supreme court, and occasionally i do, then we have a process to change that division, and it's known as the amendment process. >> i love him saying, hold on a second, you went to harvard law, which is an aspect of the bye-bbio -- >> i think what santorum is doing is pitting traditional

family values against the modernization of america. what he is saying in code is people are attacking whether or not you cannot have children. there are arguments resonating within -- >> i think they are resonating with a smaller part of the electorate. >> when you see the anti-choice movement for so long, a lot of the way they actually would change the woman's right to choose made sense to the mainstream by the words that they were using. slowly they keep moving the bar to see how far the american people are going to go. the fact that mississippi, one of the most conservative states says, no, no, and now they are trying to go against

contraception. >> they are moving the goal post, and they have got us to talk about law that has been settled since 1965. that will freak people out, and that's why he did not answer the question. >> bourque is the cochair of the judicial -- he opposed griswold and was deemed far too extreme. >> and the takeaway for me here is i think that the mississippi gamet was it was too radical for mississippi, and i think santorum will end up in the same place, it's too radical for the voters, and the political lesson you take away, and it's don't go after griswold. is to dig right in. but as his dentist, i know that to do that,

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so when i was inhigh school in new york city, i did a lot of theater, and i directed a musical by a very young man at the time, possibly 16, and it was the first musical of somebody who has gone on to become a triple threat. it's about washington heights neighbor where he grew up. lynn and i would take the bus home every day from school, where we spent a lot of time bonding. and he has a new works there. it's at the lincoln center here in new york. in 2009, lynn premieres a song at the white house evening of poetry music. >> education, don't forget from where you came and the world

will know your name, what is your name, man? alexander hamilton. his name is alexander hamilton, and there's a million things he has not done, but just you wait, just you wait -- >> that's him performing. it's awesome. i want you to give us -- you are writing a cycle of hip-hop songs about alexander hamilton. you say in the beginning of that clip when you are speaking at the white house and you are doing it because you think hamilton is somebody that embodies hip-hop? >> and by saying that, he is really the quote unquote american dream story. he is an immigrant, first of all, and he was orphaned by age 10. he is somebody that wrote himself out of his circumstances. he wrote a poem about a

hurricane that destroyed st. croix. he became washington's aide to that, and his beef with jefferson are basically the things you debate every morning. that was the beginning of the two-party system. and so it was -- it's somebody who is brilliant and always thought he was the smartest guy in the room. and very self-destructive in a lot of ways. first sex scandal with maria reynolds, and then gunned down by the vice president of new jersey. >> that's crazy. it was not just cheney -- he was -- >> and it wasn't actualal. >> and his last vengeance was, listen, i will be in a dual --

duel. >> i think it would be interesting to hear about the connection between hip-hop and the vision of american dreams, and that's so much of hip-hop, you know, and he talks about how he sort of came from nowhere -- from being poor to basically on the strength of your own ability and words and brilens, really, that you come to be somebody through that? >> it's interesting. there's a parallel and the instinct, and i also think in the political sphere and hip-hop, you see their integrities being damaged by the influence of big money, and a

lot of us would like to see you write a book about when they reclaim hip-hop. do you feel like hamilton's story gives a look into those thikz? >> yeah, basically, he created wall street. but it wasn't, you know, it was not a theoretical debate with jefferson, it was he saw their money be worthless while the british could buy troops and supplies. it was like we need central fwu government or we will die. so to write rat battles wherever idea is like the country will be like this, no, the country will be like this, and i have him in a series of rat battles, and it's really fun to write and it's fun to put yourself in the shoes of these really smart men. >> we're going to get an

exclusive sneak preview of the hamilton mix tape after we take this break. [taps on window] dave. >> both: hey, dave. >> hey. >> hey, dave. >> mr. dave... >> dave? >> 'sup, dave? >> dave? dave? >> dave? >> dave! dave? >> hi, dave. >> oh, dave's looking for you. >> [singing] >> hey, dave. >> [loud] yo, dave! >> announcer: in a small business, it's all you. that's why you have us. at staples, we have low prices on everything your small business needs. staples. that was easy. [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be. ♪ because your moment is now. let nothing stand in your way. learn more at keller.edu.

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our guest is the maker of the hit musical. i have known lynn since we were 13, 14, 12, somewhere around there. >> i had the proof. here is footage of chris hayes in a chorus line, showing the dance moves to the rest of the company. >> ready? and chin up -- he's in the red shirt. five, six, seven eight, and -- step, step, step -- >> wow. there's a blast from the past. thank you -- >> sorry everybody else in that video. >> that's right.

i wonder if you feel like -- i am curious -- this is like a 60-second question. in terms of the landscape of creativity right now, and the very things you can do, it's different things, you have been involved in movies and developing new musicals and you are doing hip-hop, and how do you feel about the landscape of creativity in the very strange moment in which there are's disruption in big media companies everywhere, and people are trying to find different audiences. and there are people that feel it's harder to be an artist, and some people feel it's new opportunities to find your audience, and how do you feel about that? >> i think everything that you said is true, and everyday, if you are somebody lucky enough to make your living as an artist, every day in a decision, and coming on the show is a little more music i am giving away from

for free, and it's so easy it's tricky, but at the same time, you get into the field because you would be doing it whether you got paid or not. every day is a decision. >> i prevailed upon us to give a sneak preview of the -- >> we have a proper mike, if you want to go over there. >> yeah, nice lighting, too. >> this is a song, and a verse from a song, imagine hamilton, he is in new york and going to kings college and getting swept up in the fervor of the elite 1700s. >> i'm not throwing away my shot. i imagine death so much it feels like a memory, when its going to get me? if i see it coming do i run or let it be? is it like a beat without a

melody. i never thought i would live past 20. ask anybody why we live fast and we laugh, and we have to make this moment last and that's plenty -- scratch that. this is not a moment, it's a movement. we take it on a stand and roll like moses, claiming the promise lantd and if we win our independence, is that a guarantee much freedom for our descendants, and all the action in the street is exciting, and between all the bleeding and fighting i have been reading and writing, what is the state of the nation? i am passional laet smashing every expectation. i am laughing in the face of casualties and sorrow, and for the first time i am looking past tomorrow, and i am not throwing away my shot, i am not throwing away my thought, and i am not throwing away my shot --

>> very well. the hamilton -- very good. more on the debate coming after this. this is an rc robotic claw. my high school science teacher made me what i am today. our science teacher helped us build it. ♪ now i'm a geologist at chevron, and i get to help science teachers. it has four servo motors and a wireless microcontroller. over the last three years we've put nearly 100 million dollars into american education. that's thousands of kids learning to love science. ♪ isn't that cool? and that's pretty cool. ♪ hello, i am chef boyardee.ool? and that's pretty cool. i make real italian ravioli. filled with hearty italian seasoned meat, in a sauce made with vine-ripened tomatoes. and no preservatives. 80 years of real great food from a real great chef.

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♪ we have got the nbc facebook debate up next if that if you could ask the question of the opponents, what would you ask? >> jay was saying to me, it was the 9-9-9, and i have to bring it up again, birth control. how are you going to reduce the abortion rate if you are taking away access to contraception. >> the war on drugs, i would like to ask santorum, in '99, he

raised the penalties for anybody with cocaine or amphetamine. >> one of the things that happens in terms of the consequences of ron paul bringing up the war on drugs issues is whether they gain traction, and so far they don't. what happens is he gives a disposition on the war on drugs and then everybody for gets about it, so i would be curious to see other candidates engage in the issue. >> it has really disappeared as an issue on political presidential candidates. in a way it was in the past, being tough on crime. the presidency, once upon a time, it would be great to see engagement on that. >> i would ask the presidential candidates the whole issue of where they stand on voter i.d. laws, and it's going to disinfranchise the older voters.

>> they don't think it will get their base, they think it's the other people. >> and welcome to voter, where there's older voters, and then military personnel that don't realize they cannot vote because they are stationed in a different state. i think -- it sounds nice, and then when you dig into the meat of it, it will disinfranchise millions of voters. >> randolph, what would you ask? >> follow-up issues on what ann marie just raised, and as somebody that liens to the left -- >> just leans to the left -- >> well, i would love to hear more about this positions on gay marriage and contraception, and would they like to reinstate don't ask don't tell, instead of focusing on the economy and the

electabilit electability. >> right now the romney campaign understands well, they need to talk about the economy. to his credit as a candidate, clearly as a candidate, they remain laser focused on it. he turns every question into the economy with the exception of certain areas where he can get to the right of candidates he is opposing, and -- >> that hurt him later. >> he is running ads on union bussing and boeing, and he thinks he can get to santorum on that, because he had a relatively friendly relationship with labor as a friendly senator republican. how much the eventual nominee can escape without getting entrapped in the positions that are toxic to the public?

those socials issues were a wedge in favor of the republicans in 2004, and eight years later i think the tables largely turned, particularly, i think, on gay marriage. i want to thank my guests. i am glad you came in. and the former speechwriter for secretary of state, condoleezza rice, making a return to the table. thanks a lot. a big ron paul fan as i learned today. you will never work in another republican state ran department again. >> i think his ideas should be given a chance. >> and thank you all, and thank you for joining us. we will be back next saturday at 7:00, eastern time, and sunday at 8:00. our next guest, jack abramoff.

we will see you next week here on "up."

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