>> his wife was a lovely young woman and they had two beautiful children, just a normal guy. but inside him, there is danger. >> were you a predator?

>> i had obviously become one, yes. >> now a veteran fbi profiler goes one on one with rhodes and enters his lethal mind. every interview is a unique opportunity and i conduct every interview as unique. my role is to bring out information on these crimes so we can all learn from him. >> she worked in the fbi's famed behavioral analysis unit for more than a decade. >> the purpose of working in this unit was to study violent crime and the kinds of people who commit these crimes all in an effort to assist law enforcement throughout the world to identify these offenders, to

interview them and successfully prosecute them. my specialty was working with violent offenders, serial killers, psychopaths. i worked on the unabomber case, the jaycee dugard case, the green river murder case. >> now she delves into the mind of james "dusty" rhodes, serving four consecutive life sentences for murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and sexual battery. >> at the time that dusty was out and walking the streets, he was extremely dangerous. he was lethal. he was absolutely lethal. on a scale of one to five, you definitely have to put dusty at a five. >> i'm military trained. if i want to hurt you, i can do this in a matter of seconds. >> the look that he gave me was

actually chilling. when you hear the term, the hair goes up on the back of your neck. it went up on the back of my neck. >> a person should be able to feel safe, to do as they please. but the reality is, everywhere you go, there is somebody out there. i think that most people who become victims become victims because they are not aware of just how easy they are or vulnerable they are to attack. they feel comfortable in their environment and they should. but that's not the reality of our world. i preach that to my own daughters, there are people out there who are a threat to you, whether you see them or not. unfortunately, at one time, i was one of those people. >> in this case, i looked at who were the victims that he was selecting and what was that selection process? the more you understand the victim, the more you'll understand about the offender.

>> all of rhodes victims are strangers to him, selected randomly when the urge strikes. >> these did appear to be victims of opportunity. in the case of dusty, he begins to act out on unwilling victims, people he actually kidnapped off the street and acted out his sexual fantasies. >> i knew she couldn't overpower me, obviously, which -- in all rapes, that's pretty much the case. >> o'toole believes rhodes has been charged with other crimes he has never been charged with. >> in a career that started so young and has had so many years to evolve, it would be unrealistic for us to think that we have all of them. >> she hopes to extract his secrets. >> so do we know everything about your criminal behavior? >> have i done things that i shouldn't do yes. >> james "dusty" rhodes is a 23-year-old man working

construction when he commits his first rape in colorado. he doesn't look the part. he's married with an infant daughter and another one on the way. but lurking beneath his facade is a violent sexual predator. >> he looked very normal, very typical. he acknowledged that. yes, i did look very normal. and that really enabled him to carry out the crimes that he committed. >> during my normal hours, when i was working and raising my family and all that, for most of the time, i was rather normal. people looked at me and all they saw was another husband, another father, another guy who work for the record a living. >> let me ask you this. after you would commit an attack, then you would go home to your wife and your children. and you had young children at home. >> uh-huh. >> what was that transition like? >> because all of these happened at night -- when i got home, they were generally -- except for in one case -- asleep. i would sneak in.

they had no clue. i would sneak it, realizing after the fact that i'm covered in blood, in two cases, and i need to hide what i'm doing or i'm going to have issues here. >> his sadistic spree of attacks begins on a snowy white in colorado springs december 7th, 1982. rhodes is in his car in a shopping mall parking lot, waiting for his wife to get off work. >> i'm there to pick up my wife. i've been drinking all day again. i've been at a strip joint all day again. and i've had sex on my mind all day again. my wife's not there. and then i see another woman walk out from a store directly in front of where my wife works out. snowing real, real hard. and she walks between her car and mine. and she comes around her car to scrape snow off her windows.

she has her back to me. my door is this far from her. i snap. i open the door. i grabbed her and i pulled her in. when i pulled her in, she had hit her head on the door frame. and it was a pretty loud knock. i pulled her over, put her in the seat. i then shut the door and proceed to drive away. >> rhodes drives to a cemetery and gets the woman out of the car at knifepoint. >> you sexually assaulted her? >> right. eventually, that's what happened. >> and she -- >> the knife somehow came out of my pocket. it's now in her possession. and that's when i snapped. she gives me the knife. she holds the knife up. i took it from her. she didn't give it to me. >> you took the knife? >> she held it up and said here's your knife. >> he wants to imply that she hand that is knife back to him, which i seriously doubt. >> i snatched it from her and immediately, from that very

second, started stabbing her. >> the woman is stabbed 15 times. >> and he leaves her to die and she does, in fact, die from her injuries. her body is not found for -- >> about a month. >> about a month. >> and i would find out years later when i was arrested that she didn't die from the stab wounds. she died from a fractured skull. that's when i remembered that her head hit the car. >> he was relieved to find out, which is really interesting, that she died not from the stab injuries, but from the trauma to her head. no, you grabbed her. you caused her to bump her head and then you stabbed her multiple times. so, it was his reluctance to want to take ownership of that case that i thought was really interesting. >> the victim lies in the cold snow for 28 days before she is found and identified as 23-year-old cynthia mcewen, a young mother who leaves behind a 5-year-old girl.

by then, rhodes has made a clean getaway, skipping town with his wife and daughter, telling them it's time to move, to find a new job. the cold-blooded nature of the murder has all the hallmarks of being the work of a psychopath. >> there's a profound lack of empathy and remorse for victims if the offender is a psychopath. that means they can put it behind him. he leaves colorado and continues the assaults as he ultimately ends up in florida. >> it's just the beginning. he is about to start a string of perverted attacks on unsuspecting women. >> were you a predator? >> i had obviously become one, yes. when you have tough pain, do you want fast relief? try bayer advanced aspirin. it's not the bayer aspirin you know. it's different. first, it's been re-engineered with micro-particles. second, it enters the bloodstream fast,

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james "dusty" rhodes rapes and kills cynthia mcewen in colorado in december 1982. he leaves town quickly with his wife and young daughter.

he begins a series of attacks and sexual assaults. >> i'm frustrated. my drug of choice at the time was sex. it became a drug with me. to be blunt with you, i decided >> by day, rhodes is a construction worker and family man. and soon his wife gives birth to their second daughter. but at night, he walks the streets of the beach-side party town, looking for victims. >> sometimes he would follow women, just to see them get afraid and not do anything. or sometimes he would just stare at women, to see if he could make them nervous, just to watch their nervous reaction. >> detective paul zetezleburger works in the area. she doesn't know it yet but the case is about to change her life.

>> when the impulse would strike him, and the opportunity was there, he would act. >> i'm looking at every female i found attractive. >> mary o'toole is looking for reasons of his sexual cravings. >> my wife and i were sexually active almost every night. >> there's not just one motive, there are multiple motives. he wanted to make sure that the victim understood that he was absolutely in control. >> you're following women and then targeting them. it really sounds very predatory. do you know what i mean when i say the word predatory? >> yes. >> would you agree with that? >> yes. a lion is a little bit hungry but not really on the hunt yet but all of a sudden he sees the meal. predator sees the opportunity

and takes it and that makes you a predator. >> first victim in florida is sleeping in her apartment when rhodes breaks in, in the middle of the night. >> i saw a woman, i thought, through a window. i opened the screen and went upstairs. she was laying down, sleeping. i pulled out a knife and i woke her up. she went to try to scream, i think. i covered her mouth. >> what is the expression on her face when she realizes there's a strange man standing in her bedroom? >> she's terrified, as anybody should be. >> how can you tell that? >> what you would see in a movie when somebody goes "boo" around the corner with a knife in their hand. that's not something you're supposed to see when you're sleeping in your own home. she started to cry a little bit. then she started to beg. >> the focus on the victim's reaction seemed to be an

important element for him. like the surprise, i got ya. and that came up in subsequent explanations on other cases. and what were you doing at the time? >> at the time i was getting on top of her and raping her. >> what were you feeling at the time? >> frustration, anger, rage. i was mad at myself. >> so, you're saying that at the same time, simultaneous with the sexual assault, you were angry? >> i was angry with myself in an attempt to try to find pleasure in something that i -- somewhere deep inside -- obviously knew there was no pleasure in, because there is none. how can you have pleasure in terrifying somebody? >> he explained that he was very angry at the time and he was full of rage, but at the same time, he was able to get an erection and ejaculate. he was describing two emotions at the same time and we know that's not possible.

this woman was a stranger to you, correct? >> totally. >> the terror that she was experiencing, did that add to your sexual excitement? >> no, i don't think so. i think it took away from it, which is what made me want to leave. >> but you wanted to leave after you completed the sexual assault? >> yes, that's true. see, that's the twisted way of looking at my own thoughts. my thoughts are over here, over here, over here while i'm doing it. i can't make up my mind. >> he said he was thinking at the time about feeling sad about what he was doing, upset at what he was doing but was able to complete the sexual assault. again, it doesn't make any sense. i think he didn't want to be seen as a sexual deviant. >> after the sexual assault, rhodes leaves the apartment. again, he returns home to his

wife and two daughters and conceals his crime. >> once the sexual assault was completed, you left the residence. did you take anything with you? >> no. >> did you go back to your home? >> directly to my house and hid. i would go home, clean myself up as quick as i could and just clam up and stay at home as long as i could. >> the victim reports the rape to the police. but even with a description, rhodes blends in so well, he's not an obvious suspect. >> the most chilling is actually james rhodes, if you were to meet him, would seem like just a normal guy, everyday guy, the guy next door, a guy you could like. but inside him, there is danger. it's scary what's in there. >> rhodes is soon back on the streets, looking for more targets. >> sex and violence come together in one's development.

it's not that at 15 or 20 years of age someone snaps and decides that rape is sexually gratifying. it's an evolutionary process and it starts at a very early age. and if there is the presence of traits of psychopathy, that could be genetic. nature, nurture. what kind of environment is the individual raised in? how are they treated emotionally, mentally, physically? >> when he is 1 1/2 years old, his biological father is sent to prison for auto theft. his mother remarries an army man and rhodes and his siblings are constantly on the move. rhodes says he is physically abused by his stepfather and emotionally abused by a mother who didn't love him. but he singles out his relationship with his mother as being particularly hostile, fueling a lifelong anger toward women. >> i got upset with my mother for years. i know what it was like to be sad, to be put down, harmed, hurt, in some cases injured.

nobody likes to be hurt. >> although she admits to yelling, his mother says she's a loving parent who never abuses him and never even suspects that his stepfather does. rhodes leaves home as a teenager and starts working in bars and strip clubs. he's arrested as a teenager for grand theft auto, but the charges are dropped. eventually, he is placed in a group home. he marries at 19 after serving time in prison for armed robbery. by the time rhodes is living in st. petersburg at age 24, his anger toward women takes over his life. he's evolved into a violent sexual predator. >> i wasn't conscious of how this is affecting anybody while i'm doing it. that's the scary part. during the summer of 1984, [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar for every dollar

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during the summer of 1984,

the sunshine city of st. petersburg, florida, becomes the site of a sexual predator, james "dusty" rhodes. >> once a person makes themselves isolated, they become prey. >> he moves to st. petersburg after raping and killing a woman in colorado. a month after he gets to town, he rapes a woman at knifepoint. police don't know it yet, but rhodes is just getting started. >> we're dealing with a very, very disturbed person. >> i didn't waste any time with a rouse. i didn't care to have a rouse. i chose the force route. >> because? >> because i was on a mission, a mission that i felt like force was adequate. >> being a predator means that you're going out in a mind-set. it's being able to watch when somebody doesn't know and that can be very sexually gratifying. it's the ability to get into

somebody's home or get into their car and feel that power over them. they never saw it coming, so you're generating that fear that you need. >> rhodes keeps up that double life. after his attacks, he always goes straight home and resumes his role as a husband, father and construction worker. >> how did you behave around why your wife? >> she was asleep. kids were asleep. i would come in. nothing seemed abnormal to her because i would come home late frequently. i would clean up, go to bed. >> it's easy to move from one life to another because he doesn't think about the victims. so, it's not eating at him. it is not really concerning him. >> a month after his first attack in florida, he strikes again. rhodes finds his third victim walking alone on a dark street. >> had you ever seen her before? >> no.

no, never at all. she just happened to be walking down the street again. an opportunistic moment. i made the decision i was going to strike again. >> he was a very, very dangerous person. he was out there, pretty much doing whatever he wanted. >> what was your intention when you first saw her? >> the intention was rape. i grabbed her by the arm. she began to fight. she began to scream. and when she began to do all of that, i went from anger to outright rage and i began to strike her with a knife. >> you stabbed her, grabbed her purse and ran but there was no attempt at sexual assault. why?

>> two people were screaming at me from a window. there's witnesses now. i abandoned everything and ran. the reason she got assaulted with a knife is she became aggressive. she tried to fight rather than flee. that's a huge mistake when you've got a guy twice your size holding a knife. she should have fled. screaming was smart. fleeing is smart. but for a woman to try to fight a man is not going to work. it's not going to happen. >> what he was looking for in these attacks is fear, terror. i think because he was not getting that, he got angry. and when he got angry, he was going to punish that victim. and he stabbed them repeatedly and left them to die. >> the woman is brought to the hospital and survives. paula is working in the unit

when the call comes in. >> that was much more violence than needed to steal a woman's purse. >> the failure to sexual assault the woman leaves rhodes frustrated, but he isn't finished. before police can find him, rhodes is back on the prowl, searching for another victim. >> i was mad that i had to run. i was mad that i didn't succeed. there was a lot of anger there. i went right back into predator mode. >> you sound really mission-oriented to me, to complete a sexual assault. someone's going to get it. >> that was the mission that didn't get completed. >> not for long. >> i was on a mission and the mission wasn't complete. >> you like that term, that he was a predatory who was mission oriented. it fit for him. he was in charge. he was the one out watching and following and the victims didn't know it. >> you like that term, that he was a predatory who was mission oriented. it fit for him. he was in charge. he was the one out watching and

following and the victims didn't know it. it was actually pretty chilling to watch that. >> when was the mission accomplished in your mind? >> the point was to have sex. >> less than an hour later, rhodes finds a woman walking alone to her car in a parking lot. >> opportunity. to accomplish what i set out to do 15 minutes earlier was there. i'm in predator mode. i'm now looking for a victim. >> predator mode means you're focused? >> i'm focused. i'm on a mission. she's isolated herself and here is the predator. here comes the lion. the lion has found the cub that's off by itself and that's what a predator does. it's sad but that's the truth. that's what happens. the opportunity is there. >> it's dark, quiet. the woman is vulnerable. rhodes approaches as she gets into her car. >> by pulling her car door open, she's trapped herself. her door is open. i'm coming up behind her.

there's nowhere for her to go except for into the car. that's when she tried to dive into the car. halfway diving, halfway getting pushed. >> rhodes forces the woman into the passenger seat. >> what was the reaction that you got from her? >> fear. she -- of all of them, she was the quietest. she cowered up into the corner of the other seat. >> the next thing she knows, she has a knife at her throat and he told her not to try anything cute or i'll cut you. >> what were you telling her to do? >> at first, remain seated and be quiet. and then that's when i had her perform fallacio on me. >> my sense is i'm listening to this as a behavioralist. part of what was turning you on is you've got women who are terrified and you were excited by their being so frightened. >> i may have gotten that in my subconscious, but i don't recall

ever having any pleasure at all from the fact that someone else was terrified of me. >> you do remember, though, their expressions, which is interesting. >> the woman reports the sexual assault to detective zitzelberger, who is taken aback of the encounter. >> afterwards, he told her to take off her bra. she did. and he had lifted her blouse with the knife and he started using the knife and was tracing circles on her breast and she said, you promised you wouldn't hurt me. and he said, i'm not going to hurt you. >> with three attacks reported, two in the same night, detective zitzelberger is alarmed. >> something is going on. we have a dangerous person out there that apparently has it in for women. >> no woman is safe, as rhodes

searches for his next target. >> a decision was made. >> who made that decision? >> i made that decision. i made the decision that this was going to be another victim. i'm veronica de la cruz.

rapist james "dusty" rhodes has raped three women, killing one. this is really normal behavior. >> none of it is. >> the police department suspects a rapist is on a hunt for women in its town and detective paula zitzelberger is on the case. she and her two teenage daughters live near the crime scenes. >> the fact that my family, my daughters were in that area made this case very important to me. especially with this cluster of violent crimes that we started seeing piling up within the

month and a half that he was in st. petersburg. you get nervous and you wonder, could it be me? >> two weeks after his previous attack, rhodes finds a vulnerable girl in a dark spot and strikes again. his fifth victim, 17 years old, is emptying trash at an ice cream parlor where she works at 11:00 at night. >> i walk up behind her and i said let's go for a jog. five words i wish i had never said. >> rhodes takes her to the nearby railroad tracks. he rapes her and then unleashes a ferocious assault. >> something made him mad and he reached in his back pocket and pulled out his knife and just started stabbing. he said he stabbed her two or three times. actually, he stabbed her about 17 times in the back and then rolled her over and stabbed her a few more times.

and then ran off and left her on the railroad tracks for dead. left her for dead. >> the victim is reported missing shortly after being abducted. concerned that their serial rapist has struck again, police mount a massive search. >> they did send out police and a helicopter and a dog. and a dog started tracking down the tracks, but then turned off. >> the girl's stepfather also looks for her with a flashlight. he finds her six hours after the attack, unconscious, bleeding but miraculously still alive. >> and he carried her to the car and took her to a nearby hospital. and she survived, survived her wounds. >> the victim is able to give a description of her assailant and tells detectives about her ordeal. >> she was in and out of consciousness and she was very

aware of the helicopter going over and lighting up the area and so she attempted to pull herself up on to the railroad tracks where she could be seen. >> i would say there's a lot of rage there, a lot of rage. over the top rage. you know, turning her over and stabbing her some more. it's almost like overkill, if you will. so, everyone was at attention. and knowing we had somebody very dangerous out there. >> did you care if she died? >> no. at the time, no. at the time, in all of these -- in any case, it's like when you get into a fight. you don't care if you break a guy's nose. >> after the assault, rhodes sneaks back into his apartment. >> now i have to clean this blood up before it points a finger right at me.

i go into the house. i clean the knife. >> but do you feel a sense of relief almost? >> relief that i got away. >> relief that the mission was accomplished? >> no, i don't think that i was ever relieved that a mission was accomplished in any case and that's why the mission had to continue. it wasn't filling the void. >> the next morning, police canvas the area with a new description of the suspect. a white man in his 20s with wire rimmed glasses. a foreman says that rhodes fits the description. >> he voluntarily came in to give his finger prints and photograph voluntarily. that's a routine tool we use in police work to try to develop suspects.

>> police have a strong suspicion they have finally caught their man. but with no hard evidence, rhodes isn't under arrest. he returns home to his wife. rhodes is kept under surveillance while detective zitzelberger shows his picture to one of his previous victims in a lineup with similar looking men. >> and then she said, do you ever get goosebumps? she picked up his picture and said that's him and i got goosebumps all over, remembering what happened. that was one of the best positive i.d.s on a photo pack i had ever had. >> authorities now have probable cause for arrest. they raid his apartment and find rhodes with his wife, getting ready to flee. >> he was telling her to get things together. we're leaving. and what's really amazing about this is his wife was a lovely young woman, and they had two beautiful children.

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the day after a 17-year-old girl is found raped and stabbed on the railroad tracks in st. petersburg, florida, james "dusty" rhodes is arrested as a suspect. while police are putting rhodes in handcuffs, detective paula zitzelberger finds the knife used in the attacks in his wife's purse. >> there was a very distinctive knife shining brightly at the

bottom of her purse and i realized that was probably our weapon. it matched the description that had been given by the victims. he asked her to keep the knife in her purse. he said police can't search your purse. >> rhodes' wife tells police she thinks his request to hide the knife is strange, but complies without asking any questions. she denies any knowledge of or involvement in her husband's crimes. the knife helps police tie rhodes to his crimes. but they aren't sure how many women he has attacked. under interrogation at the police station, detective thinks she finally has her man and brings in rhodes' wife to try to get him to open up. >> at one point he looked over at his wife and he said, what should i do? and she said, you need to tell the truth. after a few moments, he finally broke down and started to cry

and said, i need help. >> she first gets rhodes to confess to the sexual assault he carried out in a parking lot the week before. >> i said, she has identified you in a photo lineup. and he said, yes, i did that. >> next, the 17-year-old girl on the railroad tracks. rhodes thinks he has killed her. i said she's going to be all right. and he just visibly -- it was like his body language and his whole demeanor just let loose with relief when he realized that she hadn't died. and then he talked openly. >> the list grows. after several hours of interrogation, rhodes admits to four attacks in florida, over a

two-month period. >> there's almost a point you reach where they give up. they almost give up and you can see it in their body language and in their eyes and hear it in their voice. >> rhodes describes feeling invincible during the attacks. >> he told me that when he was committing these crimes, he felt powerful, invulnerable. like if someone had come up right then and there with a gun and told him to stop, he wouldn't stop. >> i reached a psychotic stage every once in a while that lasted for a minute and then that minute would result in a crime. >> psychotic means a break with reality. psychopath is using your terms someone without a conscience. >> at one point, i had no conscience. >> this was a very successful sexual predator whose violence

was such that there was little, if any, regard for the victim. >> during his confession, detective gets a glimpse of the demons inside rhodes' head. >> almost every night, he said he would go walking. for some reason, he would start to get mad. he would just be thinking, start feeling mad and sometimes he would get a headache. and this headache would come on him and he knew he was going to do something bad. >> is this any doubt in my mind that, had i not been caught there would have been more victims? absolutely not. there would have been more victims. i know. obviously, after four assaults, that i was going to continue to assault until i was caught. >> detective zitzelberger thinks rhodes' wife knows more about the crimes than she's let on but there's no evidence that she's connected to the crimes in any way and no charges are filed.

>> i find it hard to believe that there wasn't some suspicion. when you come home all bloody -- now maybe she was able to sleep through all of this. i find it difficult to believe that she didn't have at least a suspicion that something was wrong. >> as he prepares for trial in florida, rhodes is able to keep the murder that he committed in colorado a secret, but the truth about that murder and others that mary ellen o'toole thinks he may have committed will soon be revealed.

james dusty rhodes pleads not guilty for attacking four women in st. peters burg, florida in 1984, despite confessing to the crimes. his first trial is if for the attack against his last victim, the 17-year-old girl bhofs rawh raped and stabbed 17 times. the girl survives the attack and testifies. the detective also testifies and is relieved to finally put an end to the crime spree that terrorized a city. >> he hurt a lot of people. you can't really be sure who is going to be capable of this kind of crime. and i think that's what makes it scary, that it could be the likable person next door. or the person you work with. yet they could be capable of this kind of crime, this kind of anger. violence. >> rhodes is convicted of first degree attempted murder, kidnapping and sexual battery.

he then changes his plea and the other crimes to guilty and is sentenced to three consecutive life terms. in prison, rhodes still hides a dark secret, the murder he committed in colorado in 1982. but a year after he gives a clue to detectives, the crime is finally solved. >> he did tell me about an incident when i was interviewing him that happened back in the early '80s. it was a girl that he had beaten her up badly and raped her. said he hadn't killed her, but he did mention colorado springs. eventually that information was passed out there. >> the colorado detective work on cold cases ties rhodes to the crime. three years after silli ing

cynthia mclewen, he pleads guilty to the crime and serves another life sentence. he attempts to exact revenge behind prison walls. >> a few years after his arrest, i got word from prison officials that rhodes was issue death threats on me. and i wasn't surprised because of how extreme the case was. and the fact that he had multiple life sentences. >> there may be more victims. authorities are looking at cases in colorado, wyoming and several other states where rhodes spent time before moving to florida. >> what are the other cases out there that you were never cha e charged with. >> there are no other cases that i wasn't charged with. i did what i did, i owned what i did. i'm not proud of what i've done, but i have done nowhere. >>. >> you can understand how it's difficult -- >> oh, i would understand it.

>> because you have a history of assaultive behavior and residential burglars and armed robbery, moving into sexual assault and then there's a homicide. >> yes. but i have any other victims? no, absolutely not. >> even though she's unable to extract a new confession, mary believes her interview to rhodes offers important insight into the minds of criminals. >> dusty is a sexual predator whose crime scenes in my opinion manifest traits of grandiosity, a lack of guilt, a lack of remorse. through sexual aggression, he is sexually gratified and he feels a sense of power and control and whatever else. so it's that deadly combination. >> rhodes' personal relationships deteriorate during his time in prison. his wife divorces him and his children stop all contact. he says he's no longer the

violent predator he once was and even wants to apologize to his victims. >> really be specific in terms of what message you want to give to your victims. for any anguish that i have caused you, for all the nightmares i know you've gone through, i'm sorry, there's nothing i can do to take that back as much as i wish i could. i will hope that you will have found forgiveness so that it doesn't ruin all the other aspects of your life. because one thing that i have learned is that when you let things eat at you, you start eating at everything around you. and i wouldn't want that to be incurring in your life like it did in mine, because it's just going to drive you -- >> i don't think they will take very well to that. i ask him repeatedly, how did

you feel about the victims. and he would go off on a tangent and eventually it would come back to intellectualizing about what he did and talking about himself. >> i am sorry for everything i have ever caused to anyone. i know long before i attacked anyone what it's like to go to bed at night knowing you have been victimized wrongfully by somebody else, because i have been a victim. >> is that's what i wanted to bring out, to see how this person is today, despite how i believe he wants you to think he is. >> o'toole concludes he still shows the tell-tale science of being a psychopath. >> once your personality is in place, it's hard wired. he said no, i'm not a psychopath today. i was years ago, and based on my research, training and expertise, that