you were teased mightily a few years ago for saying you hunted varmts. i just wonder if you've gone hunting since '07. >> i'm not going to describe all of my great exploits. but i went, i went moose hunting actually, not moose hunting, i'm sorry. elk hunting with friends in montana. pheasant hunting. i'm not the great hunter that some on the stage. rick perry, my guess is you're a serious hunter. i must admit i guess i enjoy the sport and when i get invited, i'm delighted to be able to go hunting. >> one of several awkward moments of mitt romney. his most awkward of all, the debates. john, what you got? >> one response, months pregnant, watching the show, getting the baby prepared to love "way too early." >> we've said it many times, people in labor watching the

show, we are the cable news equivalent of ptocin, we will put you in labor. be careful. "morning joe" starts right now. speaker gingrich, you recently said black americans should demand jobs, not food stamps. you also said, poor kids lack a strong work ethic and proposed having them work as janitors in their schools. can't you see that this is viewed at a minimum, as insulting to all americans, but particularly to black americans? >> no. i don't see that. you could take one janitor, and hire 30-some kids to work in the school for the price of one janitor. and those 30 kids would be a lot less likely to drop out, they would actual i have money in their pocket, they'd learn to show up for work. they could do light janitorial duty. >> my twitter account has been inundated with people of all

races who are asking if your comments are not intended to belittle the poor and racial minorities. you saw some of this reaction during your visit to a black church in south carolina. you saw some of this during your visit to a black church in south carolina. where a woman asked you why you referred to president obama as the food stamp president. it sounds as if you are seeking to belittle people. >> well first of all, juan, the fact is, that more people have been put on food stamps by barack obama than any president in american history. so here's my point. i believe every american of every background has been endowed by their creator with the right to pursue haebness, and if that makes liberals unhappy. i'm going to continue to find ways to help poor people get a job, get a better job and learn

some day to own the job. >> here we go in south carolina. >> whoa! holy cow! >> that's just the beginning. good morning, everyone, it's tuesday. >> man, january 17th, welcome to morn joe. with us on set we have msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. >> i like mike barnicle imitating mitt romney. here he goes. >> stop it. >> warning, warning. you remember "lost in space." >> donny remembers "lost in space." mitt romney, holy cow. >> scarf? >> i don't know -- seriously -- >> yeah scarf. >> what's so exciting is, seriously, you know the guys over at "the today show" -- can you call matt and tell him we found waldo. he doesn't have to travel all

across the globe any more. >> are you guys making fun of me? they all told me to wear it. >> it's an ali mcgraw, "love story." >> i think it was sent to you because it's the crimson. >> so newt last night, man. holy cow -- boom, frasier's down. he gets back up. boom! i'm sorry, newt just keeps getting up. boom! he hops right back up. >> it does matter. and it matters, because while mitt romney has the organization, and the money, newt gingrich has a 30-year brand, 40-year brand in republican politics, that apparently can just plow right over one problem after another. >> how would you characterize that grin? >> as an outsider. as -- a revolutionary.

that's how he came to washington, d.c. he's always been loathed by washington. he's made a lot of money off of washington. but i'll tell you last night, man. come on now. donnie? >> honestly, it's the same show. i didn't see, it's good television. it's entertaining. do you think that's going to swing one vote at this point? i don't think there's anything that happened -- >> what specifically happened last night. obviously he had a good performance. >> so you're blind. >> he's had the best performances in all the debates. he's great at that. >> you're saying it's good television. mike barnicle, barack obama was good television to republicans. to democrats he moved them. newt gingrich last night, moved those south carolina voters. like he's going to move voters across the southeast. and in close republican primaries, i still think romney's the favorite. but after last night, game on.

gingrich could shock in south carolina. he could move on to florida. >> south carolina, donny, has a huge number of retired military personnel living in that state. by a factor of maybe 2-1, a lot of them have gone for ron paul. because of his views on foreign policy. let's stop getting us into these wars. stop you know, stretching the military. last night, newt gingrich, with one line, talking about osama bin laden when he says, hey, ron paul, he wasn't exactly a chinese dissident, you know, we had a perfect right to go in and kill him and put ron paul really on the defensive, there's no telling what pick-up he can get. >> it was a bad night, really, guys, for ron paul. ron paul delivers an economic message that i think most conservatives love. it's a libertarian message. that when he starts talking about iran, and he starts talking about 9/11, and he starts questioning whether we had the right to kill osama bin laden -- he loses 95% of the republican base. i'm not talking about the

independents that vote for paul, but for the republican base that votes for primaries and he certainly loses me. >> when he went into the long answer about the pursuit and killing of osama bin laden, but how he should have been captured and put on trial, he totally lost the audience. the 3,000 people in that arena. when he gets bogged down in those foreign policy answers,is not just the content, it's the way, it's the sort of wonkish explanation where the emotional feel is -- and mitt romney hit this last night -- the best way to handle osama bin laden is to put a bullet in his head, which is what we did. >> and by the way, the best way for ron paul to handle these issues, and people have said this through the entire campaign, is sort of brush them off. as he did with another question. brush it off. but mika, he won't do it on the foreign policy issues, because it matters so much to him. but it is costing him. it will cost him a lot of votes. but, the other side of the story. we had a big night for newt last night. ron paul had a tough night on

foreign policy. but the other story, obviously, is mitt romney, looking -- mitt romney has had a lot of great debate performances. last night was not one of them. >> i think it goes back to the question that you were trying to ask. and what ultimately does this do beyond show that -- >> nothing. >> moved the meter a little bit locally. let's look at what happened. newt gingrich and mitt romney squared off about the impact of super pac ads, and here's that, first. >> well senator santorum and i have complained about with governor romney's super pac, over which apparently he has no influence, which makes you wonder how much influence he would have if he were president. it is an absurdity and it would be nice if governor romney would exercise leadership on his former staff and his major donors to take falsehoods off the air. >> governor romney? >> so i can't do what you just asked me to do. but i can tell them publicly as i can here, if there's anything

that's inaccurate in any ads that support me, i hope they take it off and don't run it. but if we're talking about super pac ads that are inaccurate, mr. speaker, you have a super pac ad that attacks me. now just hold on that attacks me. it's probably the biggest hoax since big-foot. the people who have looked at it have said that this ad is entirely false. we all would like to have super pacs disappear, to tell you the truth. wouldn't it be nice if people could give what they like to to campaigns and campaigns can run their own ads and take responsibility for them. this campaign isn't about ads, it's about issues. >> the whole system is completely flawed and ridiculous, he does bring up a good point. >> if i were newt, i wouldn't be talking about inaccurate super pacs, he got four pinocchios from the "washington post." but mike barn kicle you know wh i would do if i were running against mitt romney during a debate? i would talk all over him.

i would say it's the american people's turn. mitt is thin-skinned. >> we had a term in the '70s, weebles wobble but they don't fall down. that's mitt romney. there was no surprising me. newt gingrich is a wonderful -- >> you've given to mitt's super pac, it's all going to come out january 31st. >> can you let me finish? >> what else do we have going on? >> can i just finish my statement. i come in good faith and i just want to make this one statement -- >> and he's getting me boots. >> he's a wonderful performer. i think there's a difference between people applauding and voting. he's not, it's not going to make a difference. >> but in the polls, he's there in south carolina. >> 25 points behind in florida. and it ends in florida. and santorum -- >> see, okay. let me explain. it doesn't end in florida. >> why?

>> because the rules have changed. the laws have changed. it used to be if you won in iowa and you won in new hampshire, you won. if you ended in third or fourth in iowa, ended third and fourth in new hampshire, what would happen? the checks would stop coming in. because you have to collect checks by 500 or 1,000 or 2500. you didn't have the money to go to south carolina. the laws have changed. you can end in fourth or fifth in iowa and new hampshire now, you can call a guy in vegas, he can write you a $5 million check. you can catapult into south carolina. and have more ads against mitt romney than ever before. it's changed that way. the second way it's changed is, that we're, it's proportional representation as far as awarding of delegates go. there are no winner take alls. this thing isn't going to be over any time soon. >> who do you think is going to be the nominee? >> i think mitt will at the end. but here's the problem that mitt has. everybody knows he's got a glass

jaw. they think he's got a glass jaw. you watch, if newt shocks mitt in south carolina, with no organization down there? then suddenly the story begins to be written that romney has a glass jaw. suddenly he barely wins florida, newt wins alabama, newt wins mississippi, newt wins louisiana, newt wins texas, newt wins oklahoma. all the southern states that are bunched up. and suddenly everybody pounces and says, well, you ought to stay in this thing. the laws have changed in modern politics. so, yes, i think mitt's the only person that has the traditional organization, the money to get it through. but if newt wins here, what if another millionaire says i'll give you $5 million or $10 million, let's win florida. >> the show will go on. people want to keep seeing the show. >> it wasn't just newt going after mitt romney. >> you may be right, donny. but it's not over. >> there's also rick santorum.

who used the debate to zero in on romney, pinning him down on claims made. >> he set him up. >> he set him up. >> it was perry mason. >> you never saw it coming. it was something else. this was about a claim he made in a super pac ad. >> governor romney's super pac has put an ad out there suggesting that i voted to allow felons to be ail to vote from prison. i would ask governor romney, do you believe people who have, who are felons, who served their time, who have extended, exhausted their parole and probation, should they be given the right to vote? >> governor romney? >> first of all, as you know, the pacs that run adds on various candidates -- >> we're looking for an answer to the question, first. [ applause ] >> this is martin luther king jr. day. this is a huge deal in the african-american community. >> i don't think people have committed violent crimes should be allowed to vote again.

that's my own view. >> in the state of massachusettsings when you were governor, the law was that not only could violent felons vote after they exhausted their sentences, but they could vote while they were on probation and parole. which was a more liberal position than i took when i voted for the bill in the congress. so -- >> hmm. ouch. >> weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. >> get him off message and, it gets a little tougher. what else do we have? do we have, what else? >> rick perry, pressed mitt romney on his tax returns. here we go. >> my income tax have been out every year and newt, i think you're going to let your income tax come out thursday. and mitt, we need for you to release your income tax. so the people of this country can see how you made your money. and i think that's, i think that's a fair thing.

listen, here's the real issue for us. as republicans, we cannot fire our nominee in september. we need to know now. so i hope you'll put your tax records out there this week so the people of south carolina can take a look and decide if you know, we got a flawed candidate or not. >> if that's been the tradition, i'm not -- opposed to doing that. time will tell. but i anticipate that most likely i'm going to get asked to do that around the april time period and i'll keep that open. >> governor, you will plan to release your income tax records around april? >> i think i've heard enough from folks saying look, let's see your tax records, i have nothing in them that suggests there's any problem. and i'm happy to do so. >> some very stiff moments for mitt romney last night. let's just say, rick perry -- >> i hope the party's happy. >> rick perry was loosy-goosy last night. >> in a good way. >> i'm dead serious, the guy, if he gets 3% or 5%, should

probably get out of the race. he's got a future in republican politics, he's getting better. >> it took him 16 debates. >> it couldn't get worse. >> he was much better last night. >> here are mark halpern's grades on this. >> it was one of a few. we've said over and over, he's been great in the debates, solid. he takes the hits, they slide off him. but last night, he was off his game little bit. >> i bet you wish you had hatperson when you were in college. look at the grades. >> i think perry was a solid b, but mitt romney? that's a harvard b if i've ever seen a harvard b. to show up in class and we give you a b. santorum, i don't understand the c plus. and actually i think ron paul could have been a little lower than that, even.

it's a terrible night for ron. >> can we talk about jon huntsman. >> yeah. >> he dropped out. and the news of that happening -- >> that's real shame. >> broke just after south carolina's largest newspaper, "the state" endorsed huntsman. that's a problem. bad timing. the editor who wrote the endorsement -- >> must be feeling bad. >> well, she is. >> embarrassed. >> she gave this description of what it felt like to have the candidate, she endorsed, drop out the same day the endorsement was published. here's what sindi says. it's rather like having gone through a courtship for some period of time and finally making love with a man, for him to suddenly turn around and say, you know what, i think i'm gay. >> wow. >> what? >> holy cow, i didn't see that one coming. >> i didn't either. >> romney didn't make an issue that huntsman was, it was like half a day went by and he sent out an email. i mean he doesn't even want the endorsement. >> it's just a shame.

but who am i to say it doesn't help anybody in the republican party but your party is as convoluted and confused as -- >> as the democratic party. >> i don't think so. >> i guess if we go by your standards of what you think the democratic party standing is, that's pretty sad. coming up we're going to -- >> what does that mean? i'm confused? >> because yours is far more convoluted and confused. now they're all tearing down the one person they should be getting behind. watching the bloodbath in south carolina. for what? what's going to ultimately happen? >> people will tune in to "jersey shore" and mitt romney will fade. >> it seems to me that my party won an historic landslide year ago and won more legislative seats. if only they had done what barack obama did with his landslide in 2008. >> i think they might have done worse. look at them right now, what do you think?

>> i think this campaign over the past week has turned to, to fertile ground for the republicans. >> has it morphed from the clown show to a serious show yet? >> speaking of clown shows -- unlike what you all did around this table yesterday, where you donned young marxist outfits and waving red books and were talking about everybody who makes money is bad. i will tell you i've run campaigns before. and any time you get into that territory, that demagoguing territory where this race is run, with republicans like newt and perry going there, it's very good for the republican party. >> envy and resentment again. you must be jealous. >> it's not the politics of envy. >> that's the republican argument. >> that was a mitt argument and that's a stupid argument. i don't think it has anything to do with envy or resentment. i think it has to do with complete ignorance, as to what creates a vibrant economy. the italians are ignorant.

the greeks are ignorant about what creates vibrant economy? california governors are ignorant about what creates a vibrant economy. and too many democrats right now that are running around with occupy wall street jerseys on, are ignorant of what creates vibrant economy. i don't think they're bad. >> uh-huh. >> i don't think they're what did you say? envious, i just think they're wrong. i'm going to drink a smoothie. i think mitt's totally wrong about envy. it's got nothing to do with envy, it's just ignorance. >> coming up, we bring in senior white house advisory, valerie jarrett and bill bratten, "the wall street journal's" peggy noonan and the head of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. >> donny, what country were you stoned in when "shambala" came

out? >> i was in high school. >> can i repeat my question. >> what country were you stoned in when this song came out? >> queens, 112th street. >> just like listening to joe this morning. >> good morning, everyone, let's going to charleston. where people will be going to the polls five days from now. great weather in new hampshire. this does not look like a great forecast, it's going to be warm, but rainy. maybe even some downpours through south carolina where they're voting on saturday. as far as the forecast today, a little bit of snow out there early this morning in areas of new hampshire, vermont, massachusetts, connecticut, those roads should be clearing up. there may be school delays, temperatures will be warmer and the roads will improve. other troublesome weather through the ohio valley. snow heading for milwaukee. and the northwest, get ready in

seattle k seattle, up to foot of snow expected in the next 24 hours. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by staur bucs. bnk . bnk . bnk starbucks. it's a volkswage. [ male announcer ] the security of a jetta. one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick. ♪ got you in a stranglehold, baby ♪ ♪ you are me i'm jennifer hudson, and i believe. i was strong before weight watchers, but i'm stronger with it. i believe weight watchers can do the same for you.

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all right. 25 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll start with "u.s.a. today." it says paula deen, the cooking star known for her southern recipes is now expected to publicly address the fact that she has type ii diabetes for the past three years. deen says she's now walking a mile a day and has given up sweet tea. um -- >> "the new york times" said governor cuomo has issued an ultimatum to end the standoff. if a system is not agreed on he's ready to amend his budget and include an evaluation system

as a requirement for school district to receive an increase in state and educational aid if the teachers unions are schooling him. they're kicking him around. and we're s.e.a.l. if he's actually tough enough to stand up to them. and stand up for the kids. >> has he done everything right so far? >> he needs to stand up to the protectors of the status quo that are keeping our children enslaved in a third-rate educational system. despite the pact that america spends more money per pupil than any other country in the world. >> and from our parade papers, the "wisconsin state journal" said organizers a recall effort to oust republican governor, scott walker, are prepared to hand in 700,000 signatures, far more than what is required. bau problem still looms for democrats. the lack of a viable candidate to run against him. that's a problem. >> it could be a problem. >> paula deen given up sweet

tea? >> she's going to have to change all of her diet. >> let's go right now to willie he's at the politico desk. >> let's stop talking about this right now. >> it's not a big deal to talk about health issues that affect our country and people that are examples. >> mika, mika! >> mike, i'm sorry i cut into your time. talk of sweet tea and paula deen. what's your headline coming out of the debate last night? >> what we see is a tough four days ahead for mitt romney. he had one of his shakiest debates, newt gingrich had one of his strongest debates. rick santorum, getting cocky in his remarks, saying he's beating gingrich. so you have real pressure on mitt romney from the right. the problem is, that with both gingrich and santorum there, that still leaves the lane that we've seen for mitt romney to win south carolina. if he wins by a good margin, it could be decisive. you will barely need florida at the end of the month to make it

official. >> mike, we've seen a couple of polls over the last couple of days tell two different stories in south carolina. it's hard to know where we are. one has gingrich within five points. almost within the margin of error for romney. everything you know and have looked at, how tight is the race in south carolina? >> i can tell you that the romney campaign believes that it's tighter than that poll with the wide lead. they know that this is going to be a tough state for him. but gingrich and santorum are really doing them a favor. also, last night, we saw a preview of the general election debate. two big topics. one is the taliban. should we negotiate with them? mitt romney said no. one of his foreign policy advisers had been wrong. when he said that perhaps that was the best course. mitt romney criticizing vice president biden on this and saying we cannot negotiate with the taliban. at the same time they're killing americans. second, campaign finance. again and again, it was crazy

how much of the debate was about super pacs, not a big issue with voters. but the candidates are using it to say, we don't always know what these outside groups are doing. mitt romney saying that he doesn't like having a group that supposedly supporting him, saying things that he doesn't officially support. so we have this very hazy territory, where voters seem to think that the candidates should be responsible for what the super pacs are saying. and yet legally, a candidate can't tell them what to do. mitt romney says there needs to be people jusn' attention to where the ads are coming from. four years ago, barack obama ran the most negative tv campaign in the history of politics by a long shot. if you just look at the negative 30-second ads. and every republican interest group said the same thing. but if you ask most americans, they'll say, he ran a positive

campaign. this year, if you ask people who is running the most negative campaign with the super pacs, they will say newt gingrich. the fact of the matter is, looking at the sheer numbers, mitt romney has so outspent newt gingrich and everybody else on negative super pac ads, that it's not a close call. people don't pay close attention to these super pac ads. and who is funding them. >> and it's not just that, how could you possibly know? if you're a viewer in south carolina, how could you possibly know which one is winning our future. there's no way you could know. >> and mitt romney last night called for an end to super pacs, give all the money to the campaigns and they can be held responsible. >> mike allen, thanks. we'll see you. coming up, good timing for the book release, we'll talk to the authors "the real mitt romney." and cover your eyes, if you don't want to see celebrity chef mario batali, mouth to mouth feeding jon stewart. >> oh no!

>> they're making a point, believe it or not, about super pacs. we'll be right back. ♪ [ male announcer ] from our nation's networks... ♪ ...to our city streets...

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i saw that a bakery in georgia is selling tebowing pretzels, inspired by tim tebow's popular pose. you can tell they're pretzels, because if you eat one, you end up choking. >> kol on. >> all right. >> he's just getting the doors blown off by the patriots. >> it's the patriots, it's belichick. >> it's a much better team. >> we go to sports. the patriots put an emphatic end to the broncos season on saturday night. the nfl and the networks are trying to squeeze every last drop of tebow mania out of the denver quarterback. he's now been invited to join cbs sports as an analyst. broncos game against the patriots over the weekend and the one against the steelers on sunday. where among the highest-rated tv broadcasts the last two decades. tebow we're told is considering the offer to do a little tv work. but it turns out he doesn't have to worry about losing his day job. the broncos executive hall of famer and one-time skeptic of

tebow, john elway yesterday. >> i think tim's earned the right to be the starting quarterback going into training camp next year. i think that he made some good strides this year. with timmy being named the starter, i think the sixth week of the season, you know, it was a tough situation for him. and obviously we've talked about you know, the improvement that timmy needs to make and the mechanics at the quarterback position. we knee what kind of mentality that timmy has, he's a great worker and we know he'll work his tail off during the off-season. >> going to be the starter in denver this year. we can't let the day go by without mentioning that today, the sports greatest legend is celebrating his 70th birthday, muhammed ali, born january 17th, 1942 today, he is 70 years old. >> marking the milestone with a big photo spread, "si" named ali its sportsman of the century in

late '99. he was met by hundreds of family and friends over the weekend in his home town of louisville. we wish him a happy birthday. >> what was your favorite ali moment over the years, mike? >> there were so many. my favorite ali moment was actually, i got the chance to spend a day with him in the mid '80s, late '80s. surprisingly, maybe not surprisingly, one of the more insightful people you'll ever speak to at that point in his life. before clearly there was some deterioration due to damage caused in the ring. >> if you take the fights out of it, you go to look at 1996, at the olympics when he lit the flame. that was an incredible moment, standing there with the courage and his parkinson's in front of the whole world. >> can i go back to tebow and why i believe he inspires so much polarizing passion both for and against. i think it's a little bit of what the country is going through. i think a lot of people look at him and go, look at this guy, he prays and he's so evangelical. and on the flip side they go

wait, this is a great kid. there's a lot of the soul of the country at play all of this passion against and for tim tebow. >> it gets to, you know, we used to be the most optimistic nation in the world. and now we're perhaps the most cynical. >> people begrudge him for that. >> the criticism is so off-base. >> why is that? >> he is the real deal. he's not posing. >> you have to then look at why are people so against him. and it's interesting. >> rick riley wrote an article last week talking about how cynical he was, followed him around for a weekth and said, i am a believer. i retweeted it. because there were these stories. and tim doesn't go around talking about all the sick kids. it's journalists chasing him around. and if you're going to chase him around, you're going to see before a game, chances are good, he's going to be talking to a kid who is fighting cancer. after a game, he's going to be sitting down, talking to him. you know, after the miracle win in the playoffs, everybody else is screaming and yelling and going doing whatever else. tebow walks off the field and he

takes a kid, sits down, talks to him. and just talks to him. again, that's not for the cameras. but when the cameras is following him around 24 hours a day, they're going to see before and after every game, he's reaching out constantly to people in need. why? because he says, it reminds me that this game that i'm playing doesn't mean a thing. >> our culture doesn't know how to take in pure positivity right now, it's interesting. >> well he is extraordinarily popular. it's good news. >> and he means it. coming up, the united states and israel decide to postpone a joint military drill because of growing tensions with iran. we'll bring you the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas, to tell us what it means, when "morning joe" comes back. [ jennifer garner ] there's a lot of beautiful makeup out there.

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a shot of capitol hill, the sun has yet to come up over washington. time now for the must-read opinion pages. joining us, the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. we're going to talk about what's going on with iran now. and take a look at -- >> we've been dealing with donny all morning. the level of the debate has been elevated. we've got the head of the cfr here, for god's sake. >> i thought i would take advantage of it and talk p something important. >> let me read from the new york times. just to sort of set the scene in terms of the situation with iran. the escalating american confrontation with iran poses a major new political threat to president obama as he heads into his campaign for re-election. presenting him with choices that could harm either the economic recovery, or his image as a firm leader. sanctions against iran's oil exports that the president signed into law on new year's eve started a fateful clock

ticking. in late june, when the campaign was in full swing, mr. obama will have to decide whether to take action against countries, including some staunch allies if they continue to buy iranian oil through its central bank. after fierce lobbying by the white house, which opposed this hardening in the sanctions that have been its main tool in pressuring tehran, congress agreed to modify the legislation to give mr. obama leeway to delay action, if he concludes the clamp-down would disrupt the oil market. he may also invoke a waiver to exempt any country from softens. but using either of those escape hatches could open the president to charges that he's weak on iran. republican candidates, led by mitt romney, have recommended using military action to prevent i from building a bomb and have criticized mr. obama for not doing enough to stop it from joining the nuclear club. have we addressed here all the

options, richard? >> no, but the paper story is right. there's a dilemma here, whether to get tough with iran or not, the strategic versus the economic. the problem is it's not the only clock that's ticking. the other clock that's ticking is obviously the nuclear advance of iran. that's very real. there's another clock ticking, there's a hope for ultimately political change in iran. not so much a slower clock. the real one is the united states does not want to wake up one morning, nor does israel facing a choice of either having to use military force against iran with all that might mean, or having an iran that has nuclear weapons. that's a fateful choice, no one wants to make it two expensive options. turning up the heat on iran to increase the sanctions, to do all the clandestine stuff to slow down the iranian nuclear program. question is, whether is goes fast enough. so far the iranians continue to advance, despite the sanctions, despite the assassinations, despite the computer viruses. >> even back in 2007, 2008 with the bush administration, the

hard-line bush administration, you've got a sense that most foreign policy leaders in that administration considered a nuclear iran a fait accompli. >> i disagree, john. i don't think they thought that. i think it's extraordinarily expensive. you get an iran with nuclear weapons, you have to live with a far more assertive iran. next time there's a crisis between israel and hezbollah, the middle east is on a real nuclear hair trigger. you have to live with the fact that -- >> wait, wait, i understand this. and by the way, i understand that a nuclear iran in my mind is not an option. if you want to know what happens with a nuclear iran, look at a nuclear pakistan and multiply it ten-fold. but we've had foreign policy leaders come around this table the past four or five years and most of them have said, we're not going to do anything. i mean the bush administration drew so many lines in the sand, that, that the iranians crossed over. the obama administration is just not drawing the lines in the sand. but the end result is the same.

what american president is going to say, let's go in and take military action against iran? >> first of all, the sanctions have gone farther than anybody thought. actually quite significant and they're causing much more pain on the part of the iranians than anybody anticipated. so i wouldn't rule out that the iranians could have some recalculations. second of all, the clandestine actions have having their effect. we don't know what the iranians have decided is the intermediate goal of their nuclear program. for all we know, they may decide to get 90% of the way there, park their nuclear program, just short of a nuclear weapon, say a near or virtual weapon, in the hope that they could get many of the benefits, not pay all the costs, but i wouldn't rule out that this could work. >> you think you could reason with the iranians? >> i think it's difficult, it's almost impossible. >> when has it worked in the past? >> in afghanistan after 9/11, the iranians played a helpful role. >> that was in their best interest. they hated the taliban as much as we did. >> but they've also made

strategic decisions, ending the war against iraq. the ayatollah khamenei said this is like drinking poison to me, but he drank the poison. it's not to say they're rational. but all i'm saying is what we don't no is considerable. we know they have two facilities. >> i think you're living in fantasy world, richard. and this is my question -- >> i've been accused of many things, but never that. >> if i am in fact correct that you are living in fantasy world and you two years from now is sitting with a president, republican or democrat and they say richard, iran has just crossed the line. do we go in militarily? or do we sit back and let them finish off their weaponry? >> i think long before that the israelis are likely to go in and i think it's possible that the united states will go in. if you sit there and say this is unacceptable. unacceptable has consequences. and that means using military force, either to reinforce the sanctions, which is an intermediate option. people aren't talking about that

we have other military options, other than simply attacking the dozen or 15 or 20 iranian nuclear sites. >> how do the israelis attack the nuclear sites? do they have to refuel from where they are? >> they would have to do overflights, some refueling. but they could do it, they could not do it as thoroughly as we can. but they could do it and then the united states and the rest of the world could step in and tell the iranians, if you retaliate, we will join the fray. so there are ways of managing this crisis. people talk about it as if once military force is used, it's katie bar the door. i wouldn't say that there are ways to use military force and then to help to try to structure or manage the eescalation. >> how is that? describe that. when you said using military force, but -- >> using military force to reinforce sanctions against oil flows. or use military force to knock out nuclear installations and you would tell the iranians, if you retaliate in certain ways, we will increase the target set.

once you begin these things, each side has to make decisions on whether and how to escalate. it's not a black-and-white situation. >> you're staying with us. up next, we're going to take a break from real news and do some news you can use. it will be nice, we'll be right back. is it fast? it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street-legal. ♪ is it safe? o of nine volkswagen models

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you were teased mightily a

few years ago for saying you hunted varmints. i wonder if you've gone hunting since '07. >> i'm not going to describe all of my great exploits. but i went moose hunting -- not moose hunting, i'm sorry. elk hunting with friends in montana. i've been pheasant hunting. i'm not the great hunter that some on the stage -- probably rick perry, my guess is you're a serious hunter. >> thank you, mitt. >> i guess i enjoy the sport. and when i get invited i'm delighted to be able to go hunting. >> yes. >> last night's debate talking p his hunting exploits. not long ago on this program, we went after mark halperin for his grades. can we see the grades? we thought there was some grade inflation. he's a harvard guy. >> you walk in the door they give you an a. >> what? >> you can't flunk out. >> we're nothing if not fair here. we've got mark halperin on the

phone. as he travels from myrtle beach, site of last night's debate. to florence, south carolina. >> can you ask him to grade our first hour. >> i need an a, i haven't had an a in a long time. >> hello, all y'all. you're right about harvard, hard to get bad grades there. but the thing about my grades is i'm not a fear critic. i'm trying to figure out who is going to be the nominee of the republican party. half of my grade is performance, how they did on the stage. but half is, what does it do to their chances of being the nominee. so romney got a b. now, you're right, his performance was a lot lower than a b. but chances of being the nominee are still very high. but that brings his grade back up. newt, i gave an a minus, very strong performance. but i still don't think he went all the way into making it more likely that he's eventually nominated. does that make sense? >> no! >> no! >> it makes sense to me. >> i don't care who wins on the stage, if it's whether the

person actually improved their, appeal to voters, improved their chances. it's a combination. >> mark, let me explain to the group here, okay? on behalf of journalists everywhere, mark's grading system is geared to sucking up to the candidate most likely to win. >> exactly. he's not going to give romney a c. because romney is going to be in game-change 14 or whatever. >> can i ask you a question. mark, it's dony. i've been taking a lot of abuse. did this debate move even 1%? does it make a difference? it's just a show, we're going to end up with romney, everybody knows that. >> hey, i got one more thing to say -- ba-ba-boo wi. >> he loves to say that. >> we've got enough right here. don't lead him on. >> newt gingrich, i mean the guy can win south carolina, couldn't he? >> i think he could. look, i thought for a while the

only one in the race besides romney who could possibly reach the kind of scale is gingrich. and for south carolina audience, they like an establishment figure. but they also want somebody fiery. gingrich was speaker of the house, they know him well here. i'm not sure that he's going to be able to close all the way because he's still fighting off santorum. but santorum has a very aggressive new ad out going after romney, that may help gingrich. if he does, how wounded does romney become if he loses this contest. the other thing is there's this recount going on in iowa. santorum may end up being declared the winner of the caucuses. so romney may go from presumptively winning the first three, from winning one of the first three in his adopted home state. >> no doubt about it. and the problem with mitt, and expectations are so high. and the organization is so high, it's all an expectations game.

so -- you know, if mitt were not to win south carolina, i suspect right now he's the favorite. but nobody would be shocked if newt won it. if that's the case -- >> the iowa thing -- the recount. >> he's been declared the winner by iowa. >> talk about having a lot of time on your hands? recounting the votes in iowa? >> "the wall street journal's" peggy noonan joins the conversation. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. lord of the carry-on. sovereign of the security line. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i deserve this. [ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro.

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obama supported the wall street bailouts. so did romney. obama gave us radical obama care that was based on romney care. obama's a liberal on social issues. romney once bragged even more liberal than ted kennedy on social issues. why would we ever vote for someone who's just like obama when we can unite around rick santorum and beat obama. >> i'm rick santorum and i approved this message. >> okay, here we go, that's the ad mark halperin was just talking about. welcome back to "morning joe" at the top of the hour and donny deutsch and richard haas are still with us. joining the table call, for "the wall street journal" peggy noonan is with us as well. >> ha do you think of the ad? >> is that is right of more of the super pac nonsense that is harassing us? >> no, that's santorum. >> a 60-second commercial. that's tough. they're going for broke.

this is the last moment the nonmitts can stop newt. >> it's one message that you take away. that's what a great ad does. >> ha do you think? >> powerful. >> you know, mika, it's interesting. what peggy said about south carolina is the end for everybody. it's almost like they're just starting to figure that out. i remember talking to somebody after new hampshire to somebody close to mitt romney. saying you do understand, you've got to stop mccain in south carolina or it's all over. florida is too big, he'll end up winning that. you guys all have to be disciplined enough over the next week and a half to all, stop mccain. if you don't stop him in south carolina, it's over. and they knew it. in fact, i talked three or four different people. and there's, you got to do it. if you don't do it there, it's

all over. and they couldn't discipline themselves to do it here we are four years later, everybody, their team is up and beats mitt in south carolina, or it's all over. >> well, it's certainly going to be a bloody battle and you're seeing it already. and they're doing a lot of very effective work for president obama. here's what peggy writes in "the wall street journal" about the battle for south carolina. and this goes right on the attacks on romney. people don't embrace mr. romney. they circle back to him. they consider him, shop around for something better, decide the first product they looked at will last the longest and give value and buy. a full-throated detailed defense of bain that is also a defense of economic freedom and free markets might not only benefit mr. romney, it might just help valorize, or revalorize the reputation of capitalism which has taken a beating the past few years and not recovered. that might be a public service, the obama campaign wanted to

launch its bain attack in the fall. mr. romney can face the atag now, head on and begin not innoculating himself from the issue, but exhausting it. although, it's not that clear, his work at bain. it's not black and white. the attacks aren't completely unfair, are they, donny? >> it's capitalism. the logical answer is this -- >> by the way -- sometimes even if you slash and burn a company, you're saving jobs because they'd be gone if you didn't do it. it's capitalism. i think people understand at the root that he's a businessman. and i think that stuff deflects off of him. >> it would be a big difference, peggy, and thank you for saying that. because i, i almost passed out watching my own show yesterday. >> hey. >> thank you for saying that. >> the fact is, peggy, that when you engage in acts of capitalism, some people get fired. some people get hired. some companies, if, if i know somebody who is good at turning around a company, that's about

to go bankrupt, i'm going to bring them in and say fix it. what is the first thing that person is going to do. they're going to look and say, okay, we're spending more than we're making. so we're going to have to cut some people, we're going to have to cut some other things. people get it. they understand it. >> they do. but. the republican defenders of bain and mr. romney have been using phrases like this -- as joseph shumpateer has created out, creative destruction is a great part of capitalism in america. >> don't do that. >> but americans have been seeing too much destruction, creative and noncreative. what romney wants to do is answer this super pac mischief by having a bunch of people stand up in front of workplaces and factories that had not insisted before bain came along and made certain investments and started certain companies and got certain companies saved. have a person stand in front of them and say, you know what, i

didn't lose my job here. i got a job here. it was created. >> and from a twinkie defense, i would turn it and say why i'm going after big government. hostess went out of business. twinkies, instead of putting wonder bread and twinkies in the same truck. there were two different truck drivers delivering. and if i'm romney, i would change that and take it back. >> it's the same thing that barack obama allowed steve ratner and other people to do at gm. this he went in there and slashed benefits. they made a the although of tough calls to make gm survive, richard. and this is part of the game. but as we even talk about bain capital and this gets out there, this is good for mitt romney in the long run. i would think the worst thing for mitt romney would be for the race to be over in south carolina. he needs to get beaten up for another month or two and by the

time the summer comes, he will be ready to go and fight in the general election. >> two points. one you're right, these things have narrow issues, like the giants in football, you want to peak at the end of the season, not the middle. the problem with the issue is it's okay to talk about the churn of capitalism when people getting hired. right now the most interesting statistic in the united states is not the amount of unemployment, it's the duration of unemployment. we're seeing less of capitalism's churn. but rather when people are losing their jobs, it becomes the new normal. that's why this is a dangerous issue. because we're not seeing getting out of work. getting back into work. the entire cycle is slowed down and that's what's changed the american attitude. i would argue about the sort of capitalist dynamic. >> there are also counties in south carolina specifically that have unemployment higher than 20%. >> so -- >> that's a problem. >> it's got a populist tradition. >> if you were faced with this

reality, who better -- and i mean this. it sounds like i'm sucking up to mitt romney. let me just say right now, mitt romney has not earned my vote in florida, not even close, i'm very concerned that he's going to be another big government republican. we've had way too many of those over the past decade. that said, if i had mitt romney's background in this environment, i would say, listen, i spent my entire life turning companies around. i turned companies around, i turned olympics around. i'm now going to turn america around and i'm going to look at this just like we would look at any balance sheet. guess what, our entitlements are exploding. the math doesn't add up. we're going bankrupt. that's the first thing we're going to have to address and i'm going to do it with democrats and republicans. the next thing i'm going to do i'm going to look at democrats and say, we've got no choice, we've got to fix it and i'm going to turn to republicans and i'm going to look at the tax system and say we've got to expand it out, make it fairer, flatter. we've got to make sure that ge

and warren buffett pay their fair share. that's the second thing we need to do. the third thing we need to do. i'm looking at the balance sheet. what are all of these wars, we've been occupying countries for a decade. we're going to have to draw back and we're going to have to stop back and stop spending more money on national defense than any every other country combined. let's say if we spend a third more than that. we'll look at these three things right here and we can start turning america around. that message would work very well, if mitt knew how to deliver it. >> can you imagine that as a first romney year in office, what you just described? >> it would change the arc of american history in the 21st century. >> and you add other things, you talk about turning around k-12 education. you talk about affecting the immigration system so we get the most talented people able to come and stay in the country. there are issues that you talk about turning around america's infrastructure. we've got to renew or i use the

word restore the bases of this country's power. >> so mika, richard brought up two other great items. for turn-around expert. turn-around experts -- let's just pretend that america is a company. i'm walking into this company and i'm saying, your health care stinks, how much money do you spend on health care. and they look at me and say, we spend more on health care than any country in the world, per capita. why does it suck? let's figure out how we're going to fix that. because barack obama, the last guy, he didn't cut the curve. the cost curve. the education, our k-12 stinks, what's going on? well we spend more money on education per student than any country on the planet. well what the hell's wrong? what's wrong? well we got teachers' unions that don't let us reward success. >> who are you imitating right now, the white house? >> all i'm doing i'm saying, if somebody walked into a business that spent more on health care

than any business in the world, and spent more on education than any business in the world -- >> also saved the car industry. >> and had nothing to show for it, they would say -- they would say -- we've got, hold on a second, mika. if you can take off your partisan hat for a second. >> i have been holding on. >> you're partisan, stop acting like a partisan for a second. >> this is about saving america, okay? we've, we need to turn this country around. and we need to look at education and we need to look at health care. and reform it in a way that's going to actually add value. and we're not doing it. we need a turn-around expert to do this stuff. >> don't characterize the white house as a bunch of totals who don't know what they're doing. when they have done a number very productive things and did keep this country from going over the brink. >> because you're looking at this as a partisan. you look at all of these problems -- >> how are you looking at this? >> i'm looking at it as somebody

who has saying toor a long time that said our problems drt stad in 2008. they started in the early 1970s and there's an arc from about '72 and '73 forward. that we have got to reverse. this is a generational crisis. and we've got to turn things around. >> i didn't hear that before. >> i've been saying it on this show for several months. >> okay. >> you two crazy kids. >> i feel like kids watching their parents, there. >> mommy and daddy are fighting. >> you know what, though, i think that mitt romney, you're right, hasn't probably won your vote. i'd like to know what candidate has at this point, though. >> nobody. >> let me ask you, peggy, who has won your vote? is there anybody? >> i don't find it helpful, considering what i do for a living, which is look at each of the candidates, and try to tell you what i see and what it means -- >> has somebody won your vote? you don't have to tell us who. >> if you had to --?

>> i like watching, but i do not disagree of your critique of the white house, okay? what does that tell you? i'm going to wind up somewhere. >> before we completely annihilate the white house -- >> i'm not annihilating the white house. guess what, bush started all of this. i'm not annihilating the white house. >> just a few facts in their favor. in the pro capitalism camp, as far as like it or not, they saved the auto industry. they continue the bank ballouts, which had to happen. the stimulus, i know you think it didn't work. a third of it was tax cuts for the country. i know bush increased the deficit by $5 trillion. not that it's good news, barack by $1.4 billion. >> those numbers are wrong. when he came in, it was $11.7 billion. when bush came in it was 5.6. when he left, it was 11.7 trillion. he added five, five and a half. now it's about 15.5 trillion.

obama has already added four trillion and he will end up adding about ten trillion by time he leaves. >> i think the important thing is that this is a administration that does understand capitalism, also. going back to your point. all romney has to do is turn it around. i make tough choices. your monologue before is right on the money. it's all he has to do. >> less about how we got to where we are, to bipartisan failure. the real question is, how do we turn this country around. what do we do about the deficit? what do we do about education? what do we do about frushlgt. what do we do about the balance between foreign policy and domestic policy. that's the debate we need to have. this country is ripe for a turn-around. if we don't do it, we, watch what's going on in europe. because one day we will wake up and the danger is the bond markets and the rest are going to move against the united states. the world will not tolerate forever. a united states that is living

beyond its means. we have got to turn around this country if we're going to be kpcompetitiv competitive, that ought to be the debate. >> do you agree, we had a little fun back and forth. >> i thought it was just back. but -- >> mommy and daddy are making up. >> go ahead. >> never fight in front of the kids. >> do you agree that this was a bipartisan failure over the past 30 years? >> correct. >> we all do. >> okay, hold on. >> mika, i want to hear,ing, do you just think it's the republicans' fault. >> i didn't hear you say it was a bipartisan failure over the past 30 years at first. >> that's all i'm saying. mika, i've written books. >> yes, you've written books, too, i've read them. >> i've stayed it nonstop. >> i'm going to need therapy if my parents don't get along. >> it was targeted, lovely, well done. >> mika, i didn't bring up the white house. you no he why i didn't bring up the white house? because i wasn't thinking about the white house. >> okay.

>> let me ask you, do you think it's a bipartisan failure? >> i do of course, it certainly didn't start in this administration and it predated the bush administration. what? what? >> i'm agreeing with you. >> in every success if the marriage is open communication. you see what happened there? let's role-play and do that again. >> do you think mitt romney is capable of delivering this message on turn-around. sometimes during the debates he looks good. last night he looked like a robot. >> newt gingrich had a great night last night. >> does it matter, peggy? >> two things, newt returned to the newt of two and three months ago who started to rise because everybody was so impressed with him in the debates. i think he's going to close things up a little bit in south carolina. does it matter that much in the end? no. i think mitt is going to win in south carolina and i know he is pounding the air waves in florida.

you know how many points up he is in florida. i think mitt is going to happen. i think turn-around is part of his argument for the coming presidential campaign. but i got to elyou, i think it's deeper than that. i think he has to say to the american people, you know what, i know we are in crisis and i know what you are thinking. you are fearing that we're not going to get this country back and restore it to its former glory. but there is a path to restoration. that i think is a deeper part of it. people out there are in a funk and they're worried, they've been worried for a long time ha we can't get it together to come back. >> richard, is mitt romney a latter-day bob dole, gerald ford? john mccain? a moderate that somehow slips through the republican primaries only to lose in the fall? >> i wouldn't say that i think the real question is, what he

does a version of what peggy just said. whether he levels with the american people know. i think the american people know we face serious problems. this not a time for happy talk and political talk and rah-rah stuff. i think you've got to level with them and be honest about what we need to do as a country. we can get it right, it's not inevitable that we do. the arguments about decline are wrong. we've got to make some very tough decisions and turn this country around and redirect things. i think the candidate that is the most honest with the american people about what ails us, and what also what fixes us, is going to win this november. >> i think his tone has to change. people have to sense anger from him. if you're a great turn-around spent, you're coming in with an attitude, the fire in your eyes. that's what the republicans have not seen from him. >> indignation, not anger, indignation, anger's cousin. >> so, mika, do i -- >> yes. >> these days, "the huffing ton post" if i raise an eyebrow,

they say, joe takes out knife and slashes mika. do i owe you an apology? >> no. >> because i don't think i do. okay. we made everybody uncomfortable. >> i think you thought you did. richard haas, thank you so much. >> richard, it was great having you here. and i don't think you live in fantasy world. except when the topic gets to iran. >> does joe owe me an apology? >> he owes me an apology. >> i'm sorry, and mika, i apologize to you, too. >> i think donny -- >> if i was rude to you, i apologize. >> i didn't see anything different by the way, to be honest with you. >> still ahead, we're going to talk to senior white house adviser, valerie jarrett, about president obama's push to streamline government agencies. fascinating. seriously. you should be quite supportive of that. >> i am. >> it's right in your wheelhouse, joe. up next, nbc's peter alexander live in south carolina

on the republican candidates' final push to saturday's primary and we invoight yite you to joir coverage of the south carolina primary at mill's house. when i grow up, i want to fix up old houses. ♪ [ woman ] when i grow up, i want to take him on his first flight. i want to run a marathon. i'm going to own my own restaurant. when i grow up, i'm going to start a band. at aarp.org/jointoday.

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on this topic, gop nominee ron paul would be running far to the left of president obama on the issue of tracking down and killing terrorists who want to attack the u.s. >> well, i would say that if you do your best, and you can't do anything, yes, we have the authority, we voted for it, he got it from the congress, youo it. i just didn't think that they had gone through the process enough to actually you know, capture him in a different way. i mean to think about saddam hussein. you know, we did that, we

captured him. and we tried him, i mean the government tried him and he got hung. what's so terrible about this. so i would say that there are different ways, without trying to turn around and say, oh, for some reason, this doesn't mean he's supporting, supporting america. >> speaker gingrich. >> bin laden plotted deliberately, bombing american embassies, bombing the "uss cole" and killing 3100 americans and his only regret was he didn't kill more. he's not a chinese dissident. >> maybe we ought to cnsider a golden rule in foreign policy. don't do it other nations, what we don't want them to do to us. we endlessly balm these countries and we wonder why they get upset with us? and yet, it's it continues on and on. i mean --

>> governor perry, you sounded like you wanted to get in when congressman paul was talking at the beginning of the round on foreign policy. >> i was just saying that i thought maybe the noise you were looking for was a gong. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." >> i'm telling you -- i'm telling you -- >> loosy goosy. rick perry ain't secretariat. but he is coming up. >> so -- he was looking good last night. joining us now from florence, south carolina, nbc's peter alexander. covering the story on the ground there. obviously a very different audience than iowa or new hampshire. what resonated last night for the candidates, peter? >> you know, mika, what was so compelling i think for anybody who watched the two hours of the debate was the fact that 3,000 people in the packed house, it was a spirited crowd. it's not very often you see a speaker get a standing ovation. i think those are the moments that stand out for you and it allows the candidates to try to kind of play to the home crowd

in such a way. but it also sort of reveals awkward moments. there was a moment early in the debate where mitt romney, this was a pause from the audience, and said thank you, to make it clear to everybody that he was done making his point to them there. we're in florence, south carolina, about an hour and a half away from where the debate was held last night. this is the room where he's going to be coming a short time from now for another event. he's going to have a grand entrance today, rolling the bus in here, stepping off the bus's stairs up on to the podium today. we're hopeful they turn the engine off in this closed room before they make that happen. what else has been compelling today, is what a lot of people didn't notice, if you watched on twitter throughout the course of yesterday, there's a new battle going on between the senior advisers to these two campaigns. did you guys see this, between eric fernstrom with mitt romney's campaign and david axelrod with president obama's re-election team. they were fighting over jobs. david axelrod saying 22 months of consecutive job growth.

eric fernstrom from mitt romney's team saying 1.7 million jobs lost. then it got interesting when axelrod said dude, it's not my business but shouldn't you be in debate rap instead of pulling that. ha ha, believe it or not, the economy is an issue where we don't prep mitt. he preps us. >> dude, good comeback. hey, dude we got some new polls out in south carolina. and for sure, these things are really good. they are rad. groovy, man. so anyway, a couple of polls here, peter. ppp poll, showing romney at rom 29, begin gri at 24. the american research group showing romney at 29, gingrich at 25. a four-point spread. there was another poll, a "reuters" poll that had a wider spread, but none of the campaigns believe that poll.

they all see it tightening up. and i've got to say, peter, after last night, i would have to believe mitt had a bad performance. gingrich was good. i think this one may go down to the end. neck and neck. what's it feel like on the ground there? >> i think you're right. i think the folks within the romney campaign would say the five percentage points that jon huntsman may have earned here could become significant with his endorsement yesterday. that 29% could swell to 34%, which would give him just enough that a fractured social conservative field could earn him a win. most people watching last night obviously watched the fact that santorum and gingrich still had to get after one another. gingrich saying you know, i'm the only guy that can win this thing. if i win in south carolina i will win the nomination. but every time the two of them go after each other, if they split votes in any way whatsoever, that obviously is going to cost them and mitt romney would be the first person to win three consecutive states, iowa, new hampshire and south

carolina. >> you've been there for three days, gorging yourself on barbeque. what's the feel anecdotally on the ground. we know what the polls say. is there energy about mitt romney? are people excited about him? is there somebody else that we're not talking about here? what's the word there? >> is there energy? they would try to create energy in these events, every time we've seen mitt romney the crowds are bigger than four years ago. certainly there's the sense that in many ways he is the inevitable nominee. we were in hilton head with folks i guess on friday. he was stuck in a giant traffic jam trying to get to the event there. it was a packed house where literally people were stuck outside. these were senior citizens who said they had not voted for mitt romney four years ago, now believed he was the guy and wanted to see him thinking it was a train moving forward. is there somebody we're not watching? i don't think so. i think increasingly it appears that people are buying into the coverage that suggests that romney may be the guy and the

more santorum and gingrich and perry hammer away at each other, the more they come in line believing it's not possible for anybody to knock romney off. >> peter, is it possible that the powers that be could get together and santorum, say to santorum -- look, you're not going to win. if you get behind gingrich now, we'll make you the vice presidential candidate and we're going to go all in and really push to the right. knowing we could also swing pennsylvania? isn't there some powers that be within that could somehow make that happen? >> peter? >> i think santorum would say the powers that be said just the opposite. in texas over the weekend. it was the group of about 150 influential evangelical leaders who said rick santorum is the guy trying to have the same effect. so santorum is trying to say to the other campaigns, hey, guys, you got to stand behind me. santorum said sharply at gingrich yesterday, he said what's newt gingrich talking about, i won in iowa, i beat him again in new hampshire, he should be following behind me, not the opposite.

>> peggy? >> i would note that something beautiful happening in my view in south carolina. on top of everything else, we know the evangelical vote is kind of split. we know that the tea party vote is kind of split. but many people in the media had thought the south carolina story would be about evangelicals rejecting the mormon. out of bias. bigotry, et cetera. there is no sign that it is happened. things have moved on very much from that state. >> and i think -- let me stop you. there's a caveat to that. except among democrats. if you look at the cross tabs, democrats are more likely to discriminate against a mormon than republicans. but go ahead, it's in every poll, go ahead. >> i don't know about that. you have that little sly smile on your face. >> it's rich that democrats are -- well you know, the

republicans are so close-minded that they would never accept a mormon because they're right-wing christian freaks. and you dig into the polls and -- >> i got to tell you -- >> would you consider voting for a mormon? more democrats than republicans say no. >> but i don't -- you won't see that story in the "new york times." >> anti-mormon -- >> can i make another point. >> dude, it's a specific question. >> hold on, hold on! >> people can read underneath the question. >> donny, so you're telling me, i'll continue in a second, peggy. you're telling me that if a democrat rejects somebody solely because they're a mormon, it's because they're smart and they can read into it. >> i didn't say smart. >> you said they're smart enough to read into it. >> i said i think they can understand there's certain social values -- >> the bottom line is evangelicals are so discriminated against from leftists like you, donny.

but go ahead. >> they are marginalized and made fun of. but america is changing before our eyes, old, religious antagonisms every year are going down. for instance, somebody said to me the other day after i cam came back from south carolina, rick santorum doesn't have a chance because he's a catholic and it's a heavily protestant state. i said that has nothing to do with it. they see him as one of their own, evangelicals. the old divisions that we can barely remember from childhood, our team doesn't vote for your team. we're catholics, we don't vote this way, you're protestant. that is so going away in america. and i'm telling you, it is a very touching and lovely thing to witness. >> peter alexander, i -- i don't thank you for bringing up that conversation. we'll talk to you later. coming up, former new york city police commissioner bill

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is he does look like an elevator operator. >> young people wanted a cameo in that video. >> clooney, i had to tell him -- >> the hat didn't fit. >> agents were fighting -- everybody wanted in that. >> ari gave us a call. and i thought it was good idea until we walked into your bedroom to film -- >> oh my god. >> to film the opening scene. >> i don't think you should see that. >> that thing that was over the bed. >> the photograph? >> that was horrific. >> i can say that mika was in my bed. what else needs to be said. is that a fact? is that a fact that mika was in my bed? >> i thing sks i'm proud of myself because i should just stop talking now four seconds before he said that because i knew something was coming. >> it was my fault. >> we have a photo. >> i poll ajazz in advance for

the clip we're about to somehow. the "daily show" the great chef, restauranteur, mario batali made an eye peerns, feeding jon stewart like a mother bird feeds her chick, all to make a point about super pacs. >> you're probably wondering why i'm wearing a crown. long story short, i came into a bit of money. i'm now running a super pac and the vast fortune that that entails. but here's the problem -- i don't know what to do with the money. and stephen colbert by law cannot coordinate with me. i'm -- i'm just out here like a cartoon hobo who won the lottery. i guess i'll just have to watch stephen colbert when he's publicly speaking on television and look for clues as to what he wants knee to do. >> did queen isabella say go to america and then say, have you found anything? like i haven't ep even gotten on the nina, pinta and santa maria

yet. let me go and come back and find the spice routes. >> queen isabella is columbus -- italian, spice -- i get you. you're saying to me, through the television, the head of your super pac, you want me to pay mario batali an enormous amount of super pac money to make me a delicious meal? [ cheers and applause ] >> here you are, mr. stewart, frittata con herbe. >> frittata con eggs, that looks delicious, but there's much for me to say yet tonight. i need to preserve my jaw strength and as you know, my saliva is considered currency in south america. >> that's going to cost you double, sir. >> what a ridiculous and almost criminal waste of the people's super pac money. i'll do it.

uh-huh. uh-huh. [ crowd screaming ] >> and that is how jon stewart got meningitis. >> and somewhere in there there's -- >> ooh, i can't -- did he really eat that? >> yeah, he did. >> 7:41 in the morning. >> we're going to change that in the next segment. coming up, the real romney. we'll talk to the authors of a new book about romney and how his private life has shaped his presidential run, keep it on "morning joe." ♪

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every time we invested, we tried to grow an enterprise, to add jobs, to make more successful. i know that people are going to come after me, i know president obama is going to come after me. but the record is pretty darn good, you look at places like staple, bright horizons, the steel company i talked about. the authorities sport, they alone added 120,000 jobs as of today. we've got a president in office three years, and he does not have a jobs plan yet. i've got one out there already and i'm not even president, yet. thank you. >> 46 past the hour. joining us now the "boston globe's" washington deputy bureau chief, michael krenish and stock writer, scott hellman, they're behind the new book, former massachusetts governor mitt romney, entitled "the real mitt romney." >> what did we learn about the candidate that we don't already know? >> well the idea of the book

really is to tell the full biographical story of mitt romney. so the "boston globe" has covered mitt romney for two decades, we were able to draw upon all the resources of the "boston globe." we have the equivalent of an oral history, of romney, his family, friends. >> what was the shaping event in his life? >> well, while there are many shaping events -- >> in his public life? >> understanding mitt romney, you have to understand his father. we do spend a good deal of time explaining how his father, we described him as the author of his life's ambitions. trying to follow his father, who was the governor of michigan, presidential candidate. explaining how he's trying to succeed where his father failed. >> we had somebody tell me, that's been close to romney for a long time and they still, it's kind of like reagan, they can't figure the guy out. >> and they ask me, they say, joe, do you think the father's slip-up about being brain-washed, that destroyed his public career. a good, decent man, destroyed his career. do you think that stays with

romney every day? and that's why he's so stiff and so calculating, because he knows he's one sentence away from political oblivion? >> i think that's part of it. and in fact his sister said as much, that that moment really had a huge impact on mitt in growing up. that he was sort of naturally a diplomat but he became even more so after that, because he knew that one moment and the whole thing vanishes, right? but i think it's deeper than that i don't think he's sort of reserved and detached and somewhat cold, just because of that one moment. >> when you say cold, not cold personally to his whole family? >> you hit upon a key point. if you're close to him and in his circle, tight circle, friends, family, within the church, very warm, very humane, you hear lots of stories about him being funny, joking. all the things we don't hear about the public mitt romney. but there's an enormous chasm of how he's perceived by those people and how he's received by most everybody else. >> mika and mike can echo this.

but before i met mitt romney's wife and boys, i thought, this guy is stiff. and after meeting them, and just loving them, i said, this doesn't happen by accident. there's a warm man that's ahead of this family. >> and you could also argue that there's a leader there. because you don't put together a family like that, without having incredible character and leadership skills, really. the family is amazing, it's something very hard to do in this day and age. >> i think there's no question, that's one of his best calling cards, you look at some of the other people in the field. his family and his commitment to his family, you know, it's very laudable. and i think that resonates with a lot of voters. the trick is, can he sort of show that -- >> translate that. >> and give people a clear picture as to who he is. did you get one in putting together these book, gentlemen? >> i think we did. we take each segment of his life and go bit by bit to explain his

full life story. there's a very long chapter about his career at bain capital in that chapter we try to do what you can't hear in the campaign. in the in other words in the campaign you have bain capital, the grandest terms by mitt romney or the worst terms from his opponents. we take it step by step, how job? what is the venture capital? >> i always assume mitt romney, mike barnicle inherit ed the company. steve rattner, when these attacks started said, this was a great company, and it was a company that mitt started on his own from scratch. he built it all himself. i was blown away. >> well, he started it with a guy by the name of bill bain, his partner. >> right who pushed him off to do the capital part of bain. >> yeah. i mean, look, the romney story is truly interesting. kniss book captures romney in a

way that no book has yet captured him and there are a couple of different threads to pull on. the politic, the being careful, we all understand that covering campaigns, but the two interesting threads are, the similarities between george w. bush and george herbert walker bush, that father/son relationship pap mitt romney and his father george and the romney family. specifically ann romney, who is so open, so warm, so articulate. >> and the boys, who are just -- >> and the boys. but those two threads are truly, i think, the most interesting aspects of romney regarding his character. >> that's true. >> and quickly, the bush relationship is a tortured relationship. mitt romney, unambiguously loved his dad. right? >> he did. >> nothing tortured about that. >> he said i idolize might father. mitt romney has written two books, talks about his father, doesn't reveal a lot about himself, saying he'll leave that to others.

in both books, how he idolized his father and wants to follow in that path. his father ran american motors corporation, really turned it around, introduced to the american people. for mitt romney, a different kind of business. he said, at one point he wrote i didn't run our investments, that was up to management. the way we explain it, what did he do? started out with venture capital, with staple, one of the smallest deals for all the publicities in gets in the campaign and went on to leveraged buyouts, a different business than leverage capital. he had some successes and some failures and was very successful making money for his investors. so as the campaign goes on we'll probably hear more about specifically his lbo days, where he made most of his money. >> very different, between father and son, he idolized him in a lot of way, they're similar, have a similar bearing, right, family, faith important, but very different in the sense that george romney was famous

for being very outspoken. would say whatever was on his mind, how he was known, whatever happened, happened. in some cases in '68 losing the nomination. mitt's the absolute opposite in a lot of ways. he sort of looks ahead and sees, well, that's where i want to get, and how do i gleet there? and backs it up from there. >> peggy noonan. >> gentlemen, let me ask you the big questions for republicans right now and still as they go through the republican primary is, as they look at mitt romney, as they look at his political career, is this guy a liberal? a moderate? a moderate conservative or a conservative, as you looked as his governorship and even looked at his leadership style at bain, what did you come to conclude about what his politics are? >> the answer is, yes. he is all of those things, depending at what point you're looking at. i mean, we all know that i think one of his biggest political

liab liabilityies, what does he believe? >> running against teddy kennedy. >> clearly changed against ted kennedy. he was this sort of vessel, and he sought to fill it with beliefs, and i thought one of the best things that i learned during the reporting is, one of the people who met with him, weren't of the interest group, sat down to hick, likened it to a business meeting. just tell me what i need to know to get this done. what do i need to believe? i think that critique, you know, endorsed to this day. i think it's a huge problem. we saw a massive shift, as we've talked about many times, to run for the presidency in '08 to fill this space on the right that was open. i think he's still wrestling with that, and that's why in south carolina he's being flanked on the right. >> look at this picture of mitt romney and his father george. the similarities between george and mitt, but mitt -- mitt is determined. he's never going to allow to

happen to him what happened to his father. not going to happen. >> not going to happen. >> thank you, guys. >> looks great. >> the book's "the real romney" we'll be right back. is it fast? it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street-legal. ♪ is it safe? oh, yeah. it's a volkswagen. [ male announcer ] the security of a jetta. one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick.

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speaker gingrich, you recently said black americans should demand jobs not food stamps. you also said, poor kids lack a strong work ethic and propose having them work as janitors in their schools.

can't you see that this is viewed at a minimum as insulting to all americans, but particularly to black americans? >> no. i don't see that. y could take one janitor and hire 30-some kids 0 work in a school for the price of one janitor and those 30 kids would be a lot less likely to drop out, would actually have money in their pocket, learn to show up for work, they could do light janitorial duty. >> inundated with people, all race, asking if your comments are not intended to belittle the poor and racial minorities? you saw some of this reaction during your visit to a black church in south carolina. you saw some of this during your visit to a black church in south carolina where a woman asked you why you referred to president obama as the food stamp president. it sounds as if you're seeking

to belittle people. >> well -- first of all, the fact is that more people have been put on food stamps by barack obama than any president in american history. so here's my point -- i believe every american of every background has been endowed by their creator with the right to pursue happiness, and if that makes liberals unhappy, i'm going to continue to find ways to help poor people learn how to get a job, learn how to get a better job and learn some day how to own the job. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set we have mike barnicle and donny deutsch. >> so, newt last night, man -- holy cow. boom. frazier's down. >> smokin'. >> he gets back up. boom. >> down goes romney.

>> boom -- i mean, i'm sorry. newt just keeps getting up. boom. hops right back up. >> like a weeble wobble. >> it does matter, and it matters while mitt romney has the organization and the money, newt gingrich has a 30-year brand, 40-year brand, in republican politics, that apparently can just plow right over one problem after another. >> how would you characterize that grin? >> you know what? i would -- as an outsider, as -- >> oh, come on. that's not true. >> as a leucidary, that's how h came to washington, d.c. made a lot of money off of washington. i'll tell you, last night, man -- come on now. donny -- >> honestly, it's the same show. i didn't -- i mean, it's good television. it's entertaining. you do you think that's going to swing one vote at this point?

i don't think there's anything that -- >> what about south carolina? >> what specifically happened last night? obviously, he a good performance. he's had the best performances at all the debates. he's great at that. >> you're saying it's good television. mike barnicle, barack obama was good television to republicans. to democrats, he moved them. newt gingrich last night moved those south carolina voters like he's going to move voters across the southeast, and in close republican primaries, i still think romney's the favorite, but after last night, game on. gingrich could shock in south carolina and move on to florida. >> south carolina, donny harks a huge number of retired military personnel within that state. by a factor of maybe 2-1, a lot of them have gone for ron paul, because ever his views on foreign policy. let's stop getting us into these wars. stop stretching the military. last night newt gingrich, with one line, talking about osama

bin laden had he says, hey, ron paul, wasn't exactly a chinese dissident. we had a perfect right to go in and kill him and put ron paul really on the defensive. there's no telling what pickup he can get. >> it was a bad night, really, guys, for ron paul. ron paul delivers an economic message that i think most conservatives love. it's a libertarian message that when he starts talking about iran and he starts talking about 9/11 and he starts questioning whether we had the right to kill osama bin laden, he loses 95% of the republican base. i'm not talking about the independents who vote for paul, but for the republican base that votes in primaries. he certainly loses me. >> when he went into that long answer about the pursued and killing of osama bin laden, how show have been captured, put on trial, all the rest of it, he totally lot the audience. the 3,000 people in that arena, anyway. when he gets bogged down in the foreign policy answers, it's not just the content, it's the way, this wonkish explanation, where

the emotional feel is and mitt romney hit it last night as, the best way to handle osama bin laden is put a bullet in his head, which is what we did. that's the emotion -- >> all right. >> and the best way for ron paul to handle these issue, people have said this through the entire campaign, sort of brush him off. like you did with h-- it matter so much to him, but it is costing him. it will cost him a lot of votes, but the other side of the story. we had a big night for newt last night. ron paul had a tough night on foreign policy. but the other story, obviously, is mitt romney. >> yeah. >> looking -- >> well -- >> mitt romney has had a lot of great debate performances. >> uh-huh. >> last night was not one of them. >> i think it goes back to the question you were trying to ask, what ultimately does this do beyond a show that -- >> nothing. >> that moved the meter locally. >> nothing. >> let's take a look at what

happened. newt gingrich and mitt romney over the impact of super pac ads. here's that first. >> well, senator santorum and i have complained about what governor romney's super pac, over which he apparently has no influence, makes you wonder how much influence he'd have if he were president. it is an absurdity and nice if governor romney would exercise leadership on his former staff and major donors to take falsehoods off the air. >> governor romney. >> so i can't do what you just asked me to do but i can tell the public as i can here, if there's anything that inaccurate in any ads that support me i hope they take it offened don't run it, if if you're talking about super pac ads that are inaccurate, mr. speaker, you have a super pac ad that attacks me -- just hold on. that attacks me. it's probably the biggest hoax since big foot. the people who look at it have said that this ad is entirely false. we all would like to have super

pacs disappear, to tell you the truth. wouldn't it be nice if people could give what they would like to do campaigns and campaigns could run their own ads and take responsibility for them? you know what, this campaign isn't an ads. it's about issued. >> the whole system is flawed and ridiculous. he brings up a good point. >> it subpoena but if i were ne be talking about super pac ads. if i were running, talk all over it. quiet -- >> wait. it's my turn now. >> i'd see american people's turn, mitt. seriously. mitt is thin skinned. >> so what? >> every time somebody -- >> weebles wobble but they don't fall down? that little thing, that's mitt romney. maybe a little more jaded than the rest of us, maybe a little bit more image focused, but there was no surprise to me. newt gingrich is a wonderful -- let me finish. >> you've given to mitt's super

pac. it's all going to come out january 31st. >> we're going to find out, donny. >> your hair doesn't move anymore than mitt's either. >> what else is going on. >> very good looking. >> can i finish my statement? >> yes, you may. >> i come in good faith, i complemented you and am getting boots. a wonderful performer. a difference between people applauding and voting. it's not going to make a difference. >> in south carolina. >> and running 25 points behind in florida. it sends in florida. >> let me explain. it doesn't end in florida. >> why? >> because the rules have changed. the laws have changed. it used to be, if you won in iowa, and you won in new hampshire, you won. >> right. >> if you ended in third or fourth in iowa, ended third and fourth in new hampshire, what would happen? the checks would stop coming in, because you have to collect checks by 500, 1,000, or 2,500, even your ardent supporters write a couple checks but you

didn't have the money to go to south carolina. the laws have changed. you can end in fourth or fifth in iowa and new hampshire now. you can call a guy in vegas. he can write you a $5 million check. catapult into south carolina and have nor ads against mitt romney than ever before. it's changed that way. the second way it's changed is, that we're -- it's proportional representation as far as awarding of delegates go bp there's no winner take alls. this thing isn't going to be over anytime soon. >> who's going to be the dominant -- >> i think mitt romney overall. the problem he has, everybody knows he's got a glass jaw, or think he's got a glass jaw. you watch. if newt shocks mitt with no organization down there, suddenly the story is right that's begun to the written, that romney has a glass jaw. barely wins florida, then newt wins alabama, mississippi, louisiana.

newt wins texas. newt wins oklahoma. all of these southern states that are bunched up, and suddenly, everybody pounces and said, you don't have any stay in this thing, and the lays halaws changed in modern politics. mitt has the organization, the money to get us through. but if newt wins here, what if another millionaire says i'll give you $5 million or $10 million? >> the show will ge on. won't make a difference in the end. people still want to see the show. >> i disagree. not just newt going after romney. >> you may be right, donny, but it's not over. >> there's also rick santorum who used the debate to zero in on romney pinning him down on claim hess made. >> he set him up. >> he set him up. >> it was perry mason. something else. >> this was a russert move, actually. >> not a claim in a super pac. >> a move. >> romney's candidacy. take a look. >> governor romney super pac put

on and ad suggesting i allowed felons to vote from prison. i would ask governor romney, do you believe people who are felons who serve their time, who've extended, exhausted their parole and probation, should they be given the right to vote? >> governor romney? >> first of all, as you know, the pacs that run ads on various candidates as we unfortunately know -- >> answer the question first. >> this is martin luther king day. this is a huge deal in the african-american community. >> i don't think people who have committed violent crimes should be allowed to vote again. that's my own view. >> in the state of massachusetts when you were governor, the law, not only could violent felons vote after they exhausted their sentences, but they could vote while on probation and parole, which was a more liberal position than i took when i voted for the bill in the congress. so -- >> hmm. >> well -- >> hmm, hmm, hmm.

>> weebles wobble but they don't fall down. >> getting him off moeessage, a it's a little tough. what else? >> rick perry. pressing mitt romney on his tax returns. here we go. >> my income tax have been out every year, and, newt i think you're sgg to let your income tax come out thursday. and, mitt, we need for you to release your income tax so the people of this country can see how you made your money, and i think that's a fair thing. listen, here's the real issue for us, as republicans, we cannot fire our nominee in september. we need to know now. so i hope you'll put your tax records out there this week so the people are south carolina can take a look and decide if we got a flawed candidate or not. >> if that's been the tradition, then i'm not opposed to doing that. time will tell, but i anticipate

that most likely i'm going to get asked to do that around the april time period and i'll keep that open. >> governor, you will plan, then, to release your tax records around april? >> i think i've heard enough from folks saying, let's see your tax records. i have nothing in them that suggests there's any problem and i'm happy to do so. >> very stiff moments for mitt romney last night. >> going after him. >> let's just say, though, rick perry -- >> i hope the party's happy. >> rick perry was lucy goosy last night. i mean -- >> in a good way. >> i'm dead serious. the guy, if he gets three or four, five percent should probably get out of the race, because he's got a future in republican politics. he's getting better. >> it took him 16 debates. >> couldn't get worse. he's getting better. >> much better last night. >> mark halperin's grade on this. >> a small answer that went on a couple minutes. just a tortured answer from mitt romney whether or not he'd give his taxes and one of a few -- we've said over and over, great

in the debates, stakes the hits. that slide off him, but last night he was off his game a bit. >> i bet you wish e had halperin in college. look at the grades? >> that is -- >> a-minus for newt. perry got a b. >> i think perry was a solid b, but, boy, mitt romney, that is a harvard b if i've ever seen a harvard b. to show up in class and we give awe b. santorum, i don't understand the c-plus and ron paul could have been lower than that. a terrible night for ron. coming up, former police chief and commissioner of new york city bill bratton is leer and talk to senior white house adviser valerie jarrett. first straight to bill karins with a check on the forecast. active weather day. thunderstorms and severe weather in st. louis and illinois this morning. now the rain is moving into new england. one to two inches of snow last

night in southern new england. now it's a break. then the rain moves in as we go throughout the day once again. along with mild temperatures. not supposed to be in the 50s in pittsburgh this time of year. that's the kind of winter it's been. what snow fell will be gone in southern new england. snowfall in southern wisconsin and milwaukee. strong thunderstorms and a tornado warning in southern indiana. so be ready if you're there near the ohio river. strong storms heading your way. finally, the big weather story of the week, the snowstorm heading for the pacific northwest. biggest snowstorm of the year anywhere in this country. we are looking at the possibility of up to a foot of snow in downtown seattle. that hasn't happened since 1985. that will happen later today. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. whoa!

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were back to "morning joe." joining us now, we have the former police chief of los angeles, and former commissioner of new york city and boston, bill bratsbratton. author of, "collaborate or perish." reaching across boundaries in a networked world. you know what? what a great concept. i was going to say a great title, but the concept is important. i take it you think so, too?

>> hate to correct you, but i'm the co-author. my colleague, the crater and did a phenomenal amount of work mip was happy to collaborate with him. >> fabulous. tell us about it. why do we need to collaborate or perish if we don't? >> look at you guys. the ultimate collaboration story. every morning battling it out, you do it in a collaborative way. guarantee, after you've heard that word today, not a day going forward in your life you won't hear it, read it and think about it. it is the way to get things done. look at our congress. 9% approval ratings. the least collaborative body in history. at least since the tower of babble. and nothing gets done because of the lack of working together. >> and at a historic low, not only the way people feel about congress but in their ability to get things done. >> how do you do it? boston, new york, los angeles, police departments, three different sides, different

cities, different environments. police departments are like a lot of other organizations around the world. they're insular, somewhat paranoid about outsiders giving advice. how did you get an insular society like a police democrat, to collaborate? >> when zach to me with the idea for the book and started talking about his analysis of what happened in those police departments he was intimate with, it made sense to me, because it was the idea that it was, first, having a vision, and the vision i had that mayor giuliani shared with me back in the '90s in new york, you could do something about crime. police exist to do something about crime. about the idea of basically bringing people together to share that vision, right-sizing the problem. in new york city we talked about the first year we could reduce crime by 10%, and i surrounded myself with a lot of people who shared that vision. a good friend of ours, john -- >> what was the greatest challenge? what stood in the way of

collaborating? if collaboration were easy -- you wouldn't have to write a book about it. >> 30 years of failure in the case of the nypd. in the case ever the lapd, 40 years of race relations, 30 years of crime going up every year. nobody believed people had lost the world to believe that something could be done. >> what collaboration in new york are you most proud of? >> basically the shared vision with giuliani that we could reduce crime. the idea of building a platform that people could come to, that gathering around, that the people in the nypd, for 25 years, knew they could do better but didn't have the means to do it. now they have leadership, a platform to work with, a political support. right-sizing the problem also. we couldn't solve all the crime all the chaim everywhere. >> right. >> but we could basically make some change and then begin momentum. and the momentum actually

worked. >> peggy, brings up giuliani. rudy is an easy guy to collaborate with. that doesn't even count. >> not cantankerous. >> weren't of the eight steps -- the book is eight stepping to collaboration and all eight have to work. in new york in the '90s, seven of the eight were working. the one that didn't, staying in the political headlines. the idea of giuliani and i, i got outside of my political support, my political base. it was all over. it was gone. >> peggy? >> let me ask -- it is still, maybe, a bit of a mystery. it's certainly a debate among social scholars why in a time of economic stress, like the moment we're living in, crime apparently, violent crime, continues to go down. what are the reasons for that? how did that happen jp is it connected to the big collaboration you're talking about in the book? >> it actually is. the idea, the vision. what causes crime? many thought it was the economy.

poverty, racism. the weather. those are influences on crime. crimes are crimes, people. criminals. people in passion, emotion commit a crime. go over the line. that's what police exist for and there was the collaboration that we developed in the '90s and continues 20 years later. this whole idea in the midst of 14% unemployment in los angeles, every year the l.a. chief there, crime went down way 14% unemployment rate. the idea is, people commit crime. what do police exist for? to control behavior. the idea, really to find people who would believe in that. i had great mayors in los angeles who believed it and supported it. >> are there fewer crimes simply because more criminals are in jail for longer periods? is that what it's about? >> that's one element of it. a lot of it is basically the way police now are collaborating. the comstat systems, using the information, making intelligence out of it almost

instantaneously. moving into an area of predictapolice, to be able to predict where crimes will occur. >> you're modernized. let me ask you, you, as head of, not a city police force but as the head of the biggest security -- firm in the world, when your imagination turns at night to things that could go dark, that could go bad, what -- what are security areas in america, among regular people? among well-known people, among institutions like this, where something bad could happen, security is not good enough. they are targets. they are too soft? >> cyber crime. cyber crime is where the problems are. going to continue to be. as we depend more and more on that world, that the people out there, again, bad people, the

criminals. whether they be for political purpose, criminal purpose, the ability to attack you, attack the country, attack a business, attack an individual, using the whole world of cyber. >> and you mean stealing our credit card numbers and buying things? >> that's some of it, hundreds of thousands, the idea of basically being able to pull down energy systems, shut down the electric grid, shut down the pipelines. >> yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. >> shut down everything. shut down banks. >> oh, yeah. >> shut down the pentagon? >> exactly. >> is that the greatest risk moving forward? >> i really believe it is. that in terms of not only in the business that i'm with, krol, but the homeland advisory panel, secretary napolitano. as we discuss threats around the country, around the world, cyber is increasingly there. >> are we making progress there? >> i believe we are. one, you have to recognize what your problem is, and much the

same as dealing with crime. you recognize the crime was the problem creating so much fear and then you start hopefully getting people around you with vision, who get others around them who share the vision and find a common platform to stand on. my company, for example, are greatly expanding cyber security capabilities and platforms. >> the book is "collaborate or perish." bill bratton, wonderful to see you again. >> writing a book about collaborating, and barnicle, writes the book all by himself. >> his idea. wrote it from beginning to end. >> and didn't collaborate. >> this book, no. i basically collaborated with a guy that calm up with the idea. >> up next, we're going to talk to senior white house adviser valerie jarrett. we're back in a moment. ♪ we were skipping stones and letting go ♪

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in the coming months my administration will develop a proposal to merge, consolidate and reorganize the federal ghoft government in a way that best serves the united states of america. i will submit that to congress for a vote and we will push to get it passed. >> i'm calling on congress to reinstate the authority that past presidents have had to streamline and reform the

executive branch. let me be clear. i will only use this authority for reforms that result in more firnlt efficiency, better service and a leaner government. >> okay. that was president obama making a push to consolidate parts of the federal government. you'd like that, joe. >> i'd love that. >> 2011 state of the union address and again the white house last week and joining us now, senior white house adviser valerie jarrett. valerie, a huge list to go through this morning. talking about streamlining, in-sourcing and how republicans have gott in the way of progres. >> ha! >> a robust agenda. >> i'm setting the agenda. >> you go, mika. take control. >> first, the president's plan to make good on his promise to streamline the government. how quickly is this going to happen? over a ten-year plan and exactly how much money will be saved? >> well, we hope to begin immediately after congress passes the authorization. as you said in the introduction,

it's very important that we shrink government. it's very important that we streamline it. it's very important that we make it friendly to both business and consumers who want to use government, and this authority that every president from hoover to reagan had in the first step. the president also highlighted the first agency that he would streamline, and it's one that's so important right now in this economic climate. one that serves both business and trade. so it would take six different components and put them together so that the business community, smale, medium and large works have one place they could go to expand business and grow our economy. everything from exports to trade to small business financing. all in one central location. >> see, i would think, joe, this is something that the two of you could agree on? >> it is. this is the first time, joe and i really agree on something, and i chatted with joe last week and i mentioned, i thought this would be something that would resonate deeply with you and

something not just joe would agree with, over the last year we have spoken with small, medium, large businesses, the strong recommendation that has come from all of them, as way where government can actually help businesses grow as opposed to standing in the way and being so bureaucratic that the red tape just drags them down. >> there you go. >> yeah. it breaks my heart and i know i speak for valerie, too, that you would just assume that valerie and i would not get along on any point at all. and valerie and i both think that you need to -- you need to be a little more warm and fuzzy. >> joe, don't think i didn't hear you earlier in the show when you were calling mika partisan. that's -- >> a harsh partisan. >> don't you think? you owe her an apology for that. >> that's what i'm saying we should be partisan. come together and be more like me. all of us. >> that's what this announcement was really all about. something that isn't about politics. it's really about making government work for the people. today we have the president's jobs in competitiveness council

meeting here in the white house. again, small to large businesses, labor and economists, and they've made a series of recommendations over ever the year. many of which we have implemented and will have a chance to report out on that as well. >> valerie, first of all, i think if you don't mind me saying it is a political analyst, this is a great election year move, but what the president did say that warmed my heart a bit, was, he said, listen, i want to take recommendations, but i'm not going to take recommendations unless, first, it saves the federal government money and, secondly, makes things more efficient for business owners. in our conversation last week i told you in all my years in congress i never once had a rich business owner say, cut me taxes. they never, ever said that. because as we discussed they've got all the tax laws and accountants, they can take care of themselves. >> a couple loopholes.

it's always about regulations. on the state level, the federal level, getting in my way of creating jobs. is that what the president's getting at here when talking about trying to make things easier for business people to thrive and create new jobs? >> we have to have multiple strategies. regulations or important, joe. part of why the president asked all the agencies, including for the first time the independent agencies to take a hard look on their books and get rid of the regulations that don't really serve an important public purpose, and already we've come up with billions of dollars in cost savings for businesses by getting rid of regulations. the independent agencies, you'll hear today, fcc, for example, is getting rid of 190 needless regulations. that's going to be very important for business. however, there are some regulations that are very important. the regulations that come out of dodd frank we think will put the rules of the road in place so we nerve verify to have the federal government, the taxpayer step in and bail out the banks again.

the rules we promulgated about mercury, very important for het and safety. we have to get the balance just right, but you are absolutely right. to the degree can get rid of unnecessary regulations and relieve that burden on business it opens up opportunities for growth. we just have to do it in the context of protecting the consumer and protecting just everyday people. >> speaking of everyday people, here's mike barnicle. >> good morning, mike. >> good morning, valerie. eliminating unnecessary regulations, downsizing, streamlining, all of these approaches that the obama administration seems to be heading toward. have you ever considered hiring someone like mitt romney to handle this? >> he's a turnaround. >> i can tell you, the ansel no. >> he's a turnaround guy. that's what he does. downsizes. streamlines. eliminates regulations or wants to. how's this going to work? >> a very good team in place who can handle that as well as all the outside advice we get.

but thanks, mike, for that offer. >> willie. >> hey, valerie, it's willie. good to see you. >> willie is "morning joe's" turn around guy. >> not going very well. >> willie is there, first thing in the morning when i'm working out. thank you for that first thing in the morning, willie. >> three viewers. valerie makes it three. >> that's terrible, joe. that's not true. everybody watches willie. >> that's not the truth. everybody watches willie, but she watches every day. >> i do. i do watch willie e! dvery day. >> all the talk of super pacs, all the talk at the debate. mitt romney essentially saying he'd like to see world without super pacs, where all money went directly to the candidates' campaign, therefore, he or she would be responsible for the content of ads. obviously, the white house and president obama will, has already gotten a lot of support from super pacs. what is the position of the white house on super pacs? are you for them? you think they're good idea? >> look, you know what? i leave it to the people who are running the campaigns to talk

about the super pacs. what i think is very important is transparency and openness and everybody understanding where the money comes from and so making sure that everyone who's watching an election gets to see exactly who's standing behind people. that's why in the president's last campaign we were so clear about not taking money from special interests from the lobbyists. we wanted to make sure that we had a grass roots campaign that's funded by the people. so that's my position. >> peggy? >> valerie, speaking of the super pacs, it seems that there is an anomaly in the filing requirements in the super pacs that actually allows those who are giving a lot of money to the super pacs to keep quiet who they are, not to be revealed until, sometimes, after the election. so there isn't full transparency. does that give you any anxiety or cause for concern? >> peggy, you know a lot more about the super pacs that i do. i will say the president

obviously and the administration oppose citizens united. we wanted to make sure we were keeping all of the, those corporate donations out of the arena and to have the transparency that's so important, but that is not the law of the land. we oppose citizens united. we fought very hard against it but lost that lawsuit. but that's the way it should be. we should have won that case. >> i'm looking at comments you made, valerie, before we close, at a church in atlanta. >> not just a church. >> yes. >> a big church. ebenezer baptist church. the home of martin luther king jr. when he was alive, obviously. >> here's the "weekly standard" you said teachers and firefighters and policemen whose jobs are now in jeopardy because congress -- let me be specific, republicans in congress -- jarrett told the crowd and according to the cbs affiliate, before she could finish her sentence people in the congregation were laughing and applauding. i guess we ought to talk about whether or not that is a

bipartisan approach or do you agree to an extent republicans have gotten in the way of jobs that are on the line? >> i think it's very clear that the republicans voted against the american jobs act each time when the whole act was before congress, when each component part practically all of them, the republicans voted against it. so, yes, all across the country we have teachers and firefighters, first responders, whose jobs are at risk because we don't have that act in place. so it did a great deal of damage, and i think that the republicans would agree that they voted against it. they didn't like the way we going to pay for it. where we were going to have a modest tax increase on those who are the wealthiest and they oppose that. they wanted to protect the wealthiest and as a result, the direct impact is going to be across the country we're going to see layoffs of people who provide very vital resources, services, to our communities. >> valerie jarrett, thank you. i'll say at this moment in time the president has positioned really well on this.

too bad we have to go to a break before joe can respond. valerie, thank very much. >> hurt again. >> take care, everybody. thank you. >> thanks, valerie. we're going to talk to the newly appointed director of the consumer financial protection bureau richard cordray tomorrow. and market futures a boost. business before the bell is next on "morning joe." i'm jennifer hudson, and i believe.

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close the computer. stop reading comments on twitter. >> at least during the show. >> fills your brain with bad thoughts. read it later. >> then you take it out on us and that really hurts us. >> yes. >> it's hurtful. a check on "business before the bell." >> before we do this, we have all the time in the world, fascinating. just said, hold on. i don't get a chance to -- got to get something off my chest. valerie has every right in the world to go to a church and say things about republicans, if she wants. >> uh-huh. >> i say that, because i'm open minded. that's just the way i am. i'm not going to apologize for being liberal and open minded. even those i'm a conservative. isn't it fascinating, peggy noonan, if a republican had gone into an evangelical church and blamed democrat, oh, the walls -- i mean, the "new york times" and "washington post" editorials about how the sacred walls that separates church from

state. >> "new york times," the tea partization of the republican party, getting vicious out there. >> democrats have been doing this for years. for some reason, it is only a threat when evangelicals -- >> i this truth tends to make people behave in a different way. "business before the bell" brian chapman. >> go to your local synagogue and blame everybody. >> i don't know what that mean, but thank you. go ahead. >> china grew at 8.9%. a number like that, incredible. >> wow. >> listen, we don't know how much to trust the numbers, pt bottom line, china can't grow without other parts of the world being okay. export focused. a big boost. chinese stocks up big. and spanish bond options, s&p downgraded spain two notches and still a short-term bond option. yields low. demand high. not at huge impact there.

stocks looking at 100 point open -- >> why not? >> they feel, bcb, backstop the countries outside of greece and seemed like a good investment to a lot of people. >> basically making the jon corzine bet. come on. europe's never going to -- >> oh, stop. that's terrible. brian shactman -- >> what about s&p? >> missed everything about the collapse. we take them seriously all of a sudden because they're downgrading everyone? downgrade yourself. >> thank you very much. my job is to find the next big sound. they sound awesome tonight. and when i do find it, i share it with the world. you landed the u.s. tour ? done. this is fantastic ! music is my life and i want to make the most of it without missing a beat. fly without putting your life on pause. be yourself nonstop. american airlines.

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michelle obama appearing on a tv show. something called "i carly." no what i'm saying? a long tradition of presidents we've, first ladies of the united states appearing on television shows and we put together along montage. take a look. 1983, nancy reagan played herself on "different strokes." 1976, betty ford plays herd on "the mary tyler moore show." 1969, pat nixon played the gorn on "star trek." to learn more visit your local library.

i'm meteorologist bill karins with a business travel forecast. stormy day. the eastern half kuchbt dealing with periods of rain, a little snow for chicago, milwaukee, northern michigan. in the east, a mild day today. the only cold air in the middle of the country. iowa, illinois, northward. much colder at the day moves on. have a great afternoon. nice ring. knock it off. ignore him. with the capital one venture card you earn... double miles on every purchase. [ sharon ] 3d is so real larry. i'm right here larry. if you're not earning double miles... you're settling for half. really? a plaid tie? what, are we in prep school? [ male announcer ] get the venture card at capitalone.com and earn double miles

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hey, welcome back to "morning joe." so good to have you back here. talking about peace, love and understanding. how why reach across the aisle? what i do well? is that what you learned today? >> one thing. >> i give so much sometimes that it hurts. >> i didn't have