thank you very much for joining me. >> thank you mitt takes a hit. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight they're just not that into you, mitt. every time he looks to be on his way to the republican nomination the conservative base of his party screams no! we will not be force fed mitt romney. last night republicans in three states rejected romney. rick santorum swept colorado, minnesota, and missouri, proof again that when mitt doesn't bury his rivals under an avalanche of negative ads, he loses.

and look at the map after eight states. santorum in purple has won four. romney three. gingrich one. there's more reason for santorum to be optimistic. the culture wars have come roaring back. three huge issues have ignited the right wing -- the fight over birth control between the obama administration and the catholic church, the debate over funding for planned parenthood and the federal appeals court decision that california's same-sex marriage ban is unconstitutional. every day that the candidates are talking about birth control, abortion, or gay marriage santorum wins and romney loses. about that fight over the administration's decision to force catholic organizations, colleges, universities, and hospitals to pay for birth control for their employees, the question here isn't whether most catholics are with president obama. it's how many catholics voted for obama in 2008 and could vote against him because of this decision. that's something for them and the white house to consider. plus a former white house intern who said she had an affair with president john f. kennedy when

she was 19 years old. finally, which man running for president, more americans want to share a cubicle with in the side show. former new hampshire republican governor john sununu is a romney supporter. governor sununu, there is no tougher man out there. can you stand the winds coming from the west, colorado, missouri, and minnesota all three rejecting your guy? >> obviously you like to win them. you don't win every primary. you don't win every caucus. light turnout caucuses are always volatile. i think the big loser though ended up being newt gingrich. >> let's take a look at the numbers. the triple victory as i said for rick santorum. in colorado, santorum came up on top with 40% of the vote. romney at 35%. gingrich and paul trailed. in minnesota santorum won by nearly 20 points. he took 45%. ron paul came in second. romney down there at third with

17%. in the missouri primary where newt gingrich did not make the ballot, santorum won by a landslide, 55% to romney's 25%. now in missouri although it is what we call a beauty contest, no delegates at stake, there were 250,000 voters out there. a lot of people are going into the voting booth or caucuses, governor, in states where there hasn't been this pulverization of negative ads and voting against your guy. >> look, even when we've had the wins on primary night, i've come to you and said this is a long slog. there are a lot of states that have to -- this process has to go through. governor romney is prepared to do it. before this, newt gingrich was saying it's a two-man race. it's a two-man race now, but it's mitt romney and santorum. >> but aren't you shocked it is 4-3-1 now? >> no, i'm not. >> santorum with no money. >> the only thing that surprised me last night was colorado a little bit. i thought the governor would win by a little bit. he lost by a little bit. other than that the results that have occurred here i think people would have told you almost down the line there was a

high probability of getting what we want. >> i'm not your toughest critic. here is eric erickson of red state. he had this to say about last night's results. from missouri to minnesota to colorado the republican electorate sent a very clear signal they want conviction over electability. they do not like mitt romney. they see santorum as authentic. they see mitt romney as a fraud. a fraud. rick santorum swept the races. romney the front-runner got crushed by conservatives. what do you think of red state? a hell of a blogger out there. >> he blogs all over but has been anti-romney from the beginning. look. as this race goes through, conservatives are going to begin to realize that mitt romney was a very conservative governor. he cut spending. he cut taxes. he stood with the right-to-life people on the legislation that they cared about. he stood against the gay marriage decision that the court came down with. he kept massachusetts out of -- >> he ran up there as pro choice and he pushed through basically the role model for health care. those are powerful arguments against him. >> look at what he did after he

took the oath of office and those are the issues that count. on the health care issue, there is so much -- >> there's a scary flag. don't go by what he says when he campaigns. you just said don't go by what he campaigned on -- >> look at what they do when they are in office. >> if you are a conservative hearing governor sununu speak right now, oh, my god, he is admitting you can't trust a candidate by his campaign promises. >> you trust a candidate by what he performs and what his record of performance is and what he did on legislation. >> okay. on the obama care the role model came out of massachusetts. >> no, the role model came out of the heritage foundation and the fact is that it is so different than what obama has. it deals with a small percentage of people. it took care of the dead beats that were keeping money out. >> hey, i'm with you because it is obama care. but he has an individual mandate. the individual mandate is the thing the right wing hates the most. >> the obama package takes over all of health care and mitt romney has committed himself to getting rid of it the first day.

>> let's talk about rick santorum. he ran against your handsome, well funded candidate. everybody loves your candidate and says it's his turn. rick santorum. everybody gives him up for lost. he home schools his kids and has no money compared to your guy. there he is winning three states. >> he spent a ton of money in colorado, minnesota, and missouri. he has now found some backers. he spent a lot of time in colorado, and the evangelicals gave him what he needed. >> a ton of money. how much did he spend? >> i don't know the exact. >> we're have our people checking. last night santorum claimed those victories in part due to the lack of negative advertising from the pro-romney group the superpac that create dresden like disasters in every state. >> tonight we had an opportunity to see what a campaign looks like when one candidate isn't outspent five or ten to one by negative ads imputing their integrity and distorting their record. governor romney's greatest

attribute is, well, i've got the most money and the best organization. well, he is not going to have the most money and the best organization in the fall is he? >> is romney in trouble now that the issue shifted to cultural issues like the catholic church and the fact that there is a big fight going on? i'm not sure who is going to win it. the catholic church against the obama administration on this issue of paying for birth control insurance. that seems like a fight better for santorum to be fighting. >> well, governor romney, about ten days ago had a very powerful op-ed piece in the "washington examiner" supporting the catholic bishops when he was governor he vetoed the legislation that was trying to do the same thing. he filed legislation to protect catholic charities on their adoption in massachusetts. and in 2008 he got the award as the defender of religious liberty. he has a great record on these issues, and i think that he can stand toe to toe with anyone on what he has done to deal with issues like that as governor. >> how do you get the washington examiner? anyway, thank you. i get it in my driveway.

an interesting newspaper for certain. thank you, governor sununu. finds the most conservative paper in washington to cite. thank you for coming. you have a great sense of humor. >> isn't the place to put it? >> through thick and thin. and last night was thin. jay martin -- jonathan martin, the senior political reporter. he's here with the story. what happened? why did rick pull that big upset in colorado? we were watching minnesota and the beauty contest in missouri but he went all the way and swept last night. >> there is more organic support for rick santorum who is an authentic culture warrior than for mitt romney in the grassroots of the gop. when you have these contests where the electorate is largely comprised of movement conservatives, chris. santorum is going to win. the romney campaign has made a show of saying these don't count. there are no delegates at stake, which is totally fair. what a lot of republicans want to know is if that is the case, what was he doing in colorado last night?

what was he doing in minnesota campaigning there? once you go to those states if you're romney and you engage there, well, delegates or not, then you create a contest. if you lose as badly as he did in two of the three states, you create a problem for yourself. >> last year's pregame of this campaign was like an hour of cartoons and it was one nutty week after another. donald trump one week, michele bachmann the next. herman cain the next. it looks like the hour of cartoons has continued this year. every time you look at a primary or caucus, there's a new winner up there. last night it was rick santorum. nobody thinks it is going to be rick santorum every night. it was romney for a while. it's like the voters keep voting against whoever seems to be hot because they can't stand that person so they vote for the other guy. they keep saying no for what they see by voting for the outside guy that doesn't have a chance to keep this thing crazy the way it is. >> it seems like every contest to date has been discreet in the sense there's not been the big

mo to borrow the old bush 41 term, you saw from state to state. every election in every state has been different here so far. but i think what you have seen, though, is the conservative base of the party saying, hang on. we're not quite ready to corinate romney yet. i think you'll see a lot of conservatives in the days to come saying to romney, it's not good enough that you just drop nuclear weapons on santorum like you did gingrich. we want more proactive, forward looking policy ideas from you. i'm telling you you're going to hear a lot more from the likes of the journal editorial page, the fred barnes of the world. really concerned about the message from romney. >> well, john, here is the new message, a twist. romney even though he's worth maybe a quarter billion dollars last night he portrayed his father at least as a working class hero. >> right. >> let's watch him try to squeeze in the costume of the little guy. let's watch.

>> my father never graduated from college. he apprenticed as a lathe and plaster carpenter and is pretty good at it. he could take a handful of nails, stick them in his mouth and spit them out pointy end forward. on his honeymoon he put aluminum paint in the trunk of the car and sold it along the way to pay for the gas and hotels. >> why is that relevant? why is that relevant to anybody what a guy's father did when here is a guy in his 60s, full grown, a career to talk about. it's like newt talking about his father's experience in the war. talk about yourself. you're the one running. this isn't europe where you talk about your father, as some lineage you're selling. >> right. >> it's so desperate. >> he's joe the plumber now? >> look, he has problems with folks trying to make a connection to him. so he's trying to obviously create a narrative. it sounds familiar to a lot of americans. one by the way that rick santorum used to great effect on election night in iowa talking about his own grandfather who was a coal miner.

this is the problem that conservatives are talking about. karl rove wrote about it last week in the journal and you'll hear more about it in the days ahead. i was talking to senators today on the hill. they want to hear ideas and vision for the future and less about biography. less about, this is what my opponents are flawed. conservatives want to put more meat on the policy bones. it is going to be really fascinating in the days ahead to see whether romney in addition to going after santorum and newt also rolls out more policy oriented ideas here in the next few days. >> i'm personally thrilled that this is going to be a big, long campaign with a lot of excitement and the republicans are not settled on a candidate, any candidate. i haven't seen anything like this since way back in 1964 when they just couldn't decide on rockefeller or henry cabot lodge or goldwater. they ended up with goldwater because of marital problems on the part of rockefeller. they didn't really fall in love with the guy. it is so interesting, isn't it so fascinating?

i know you're not reliving '64, but i am. >> at the cow palace, chris. thanks, man. extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. coming up the obama administration decision to require religious institutions to pay for birth control remains, actually it is getting hotter. can the obama administration figure its way out? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ♪ we were skipping stones and letting go ♪ [ female announcer ] nature valley granola bars, rich dark chocolate, toasted oats. perfect combinations of nature's delicious ingredients, from nature valley. ♪ nature valley granola bars, nature at its most delicious.

now quinnipiac poll numbers from the battleground state of virginia. let's check the "hardball" scoreboard. in the presidential race president obama has the edge over mitt romney. a big gain there. he's taken a four-point lead. obama in virginia 47% to 43%. in late december romney led there by two. in that hot senate race between former senator george allen and former governor tim kaine, it's a tie. kaine has a one-point lead, 45%/44%.

if the president does not reverse the department's attack on religious freedom then the congress, acting on behalf of the american people and the constitution that we're sworn to uphold and defend must. this attack by the federal government on religious freedom in our country must not stand and will not stand. >> welcome back to "hardball." that is of course house speaker john boehner today just hours before it was announced that the house energy and commerce committee will hold a hearing march 1st. hss secretary kathleen sebelius expected to testify about the role he just described requiring religious organizations to provide free birth control in their employee health insurance plans. e white house pushed bac today referring to reporters to this petition in support of the hss contraceptive proposal and signed by over 600 doctors including 70 catholic doctors. the fight has only gotten hotter with lawmakers on both sides speaking out loudly today. will either side buckle?

that's the big question. linda writes for "the washington post." melinda, i've been reading your columns on this. why did "the post" call you melinda one day instead of melinda hennenberger in that column? what was that about? >> it's a production error, chris. it's funny. i got some irate mail from people saying at least have the guts to sign it with your last name thinking i was attempting to be semi anonymous. or maybe it was a hat tip to madonna ahead of the super bowl. >> i kept thinking it was an attempt to protect you from the incoming. but you did get protected. let's go straight to the politics of this. you got the republican leadership on that, we're going to hear from some democratic senators. today senators kelly and marco rubio said this is about government overreach. >> this is not a women's rights issue.

this is a religious liberty issue. and it can apply to all faiths. i've heard from my constituents who are deeply, deeply concerned about this. we need to respect the rights of conscience for all religions. >> this is about whether the government of the united states should have the power to go in and tell a faith-based organization they have to pay for something that they teach their members shouldn't be doing. it's that simple. and if the answer is yes, then we can read -- then this government can reach all kinds of other absurd results. >> the other side late this afternoon democratic senators countered the republicans by make clearing this fight is about women's health. let's listen to senators boxer, murray and gillibrand. >> we're here to stand up for the women of america who deserve to have access to free, preventative care through their health insurance. and we want to thank president

obama for making that possible. >> we have news for republicans. this is about contraception. the attacks on women's rights never come without being disguised as something else. >> i am dumbfounded that in the year 2012 we still are fighting about birth control. our opponents will look for any excuse to impose their ideology on women's rights. >> okay. there you have the ideological argument from the left i suppose to the progressives in this country. you heard it well-spoken there. melinda, they see it as an argument over whether you're allowed to have birth control or getting covered as part of the insurance or not. the catholic church and those who are looking at the interests of the, well, the first amendment if you will as they see it look at it differently. explain this distinction and how you look at the interests involved, the conflicts, the rights involved here. >> i just think the two sides can't hear each other, not that there is anything unusual about that. but i know in my own

conversations with friends, i'm saying first amendment, first amendment, first amendment. what i hear back is, wow. i had no idea you didn't believe in birth control. you know, this really isn't seen widely among catholics and people of other faiths as an attack on religious liberty. maybe the founders were wrong to guarantee free exercise of religion in the first amendment but that is what they did and i don't think we have to choose here. the key is that i think there are ways we can go about this where without infringing on any concern about a woman's health we can still guarantee religious liberty without which, i mean, there is no way this is going to stand in the court but it's also a huge political liability. >> you said there is no way it's going to stand in the court. let's assume there is no legislation that gets signed by the president. assume it stands between the who's going to blink thing. let's ask, will the catholic church blink? can you imagine them saying we give up. we're going to provide full

insurance coverage with no copay for everything now defined by the fda as birth control. they're going to do it and go for this? >> that actually can never happen so they would have to literally go -- i mean, what sister carol keehan is saying who runs the catholic health association, do i really have to choose between the call that i think came from jesus to serve the have nots in this world and the government telling me that i have to do something that goes against my faith? i mean, this really will never happen so what they're doing is guaranteeing people, you know, these catholic outfits and others can't serve the populations they were called to serve. it does not have to come to that. >> michelle, your reporting on this, how is it going? obviously we're looking at two conflicting interests. different points of view about the institution. >> there are conflicting interests but melinda is just wrong about the courts and the precedents.

we have 28 states right now that have these mandates including new york and california and for that matter massachusetts that have the same kind of restriction, the same restrictions that are in the federal mandate. there is an exemption for churches. >> they are actually not the same. >> and schools but not for hospitals and universities. and it went up to the supreme court. they were in new york. >> just a minute. to get the facts straight, you are saying they do the same thing as the hhs rules which is saying you have to provide full insurance coverage for birth control including iuds and morning after pills and there is no copay. that is the same in all 28 states? >> it's not about no copay but they are saying all insurance policies have to cover contraception the same way it covers other prescription drugs. >> it's not the same as the hhs regulation. >> that is not the fight. the fight is about coverage of birth control not the $10 or $20 copay. >> the fight is about forcing people who don't believe that to pay for it. the fight is about forcing people who would not be able to be in this business if they had to break church teaching to do that. >> we already have these laws in

many states and what we've seen -- >> they're not drawn this way. they're not drawn this way. >> just a second. >> the supreme court refused to hear it. >> michelle, i have to get one fact straight. as i understand the catholic church's position, i don't know about the other religious organizations, their concern is guaranteeing full coverage without copay. they are just paying for everything. it is basically free. with a copay they feel they're not. they believe and perhaps correctly that they're not paying or financing or underwriting use of birth control. >> the fight has been about coverage and it's been about -- >> let me go back on that point. that small but important perhaps giant detail. melinda, is that the detail that the church objects to that it has to provide with no copay? >> yes. they object because it means that they are in effect buying it. >> right. >> the squabble is -- and it's more than that -- is not about whether these people are going to be covered. actually that is not the issue at all. it's about whether they're going

to have to break their own church rules, church teaching guaranteed by the first amendment, to be able to buy it for their employees. >> why is this an important issue for the women's groups as you're reporting this, michelle, that it would be no copay just to answer the question? if this is the fight over it, why is it important for those supporting the right of a woman to get full coverage? >> again, because it's not just -- the churches would prefer that women should have to pay for these services totally out of pocket. and of course in churches, in catholic schools, that's totally acceptable. but these are hospitals and universities that serve a secular purpose. and you've seen rulings from the equal employment opportunity -- >> are you saying my college serves a secular purpose -- holy cross, villanova, st. joe's, these serve a secular purpose? >> georgetown, depaul, these universities do provide family planning for their faculty because they basically know they have faculty of all faiths. >> right.

>> and that they have, those faculty play as much a secular role as a role inculcating religion. that is what this is about. should a jewish nurse or doctor who works for what may be the only hospital in town have to pay an extra 800 or a thousand dollars out of pocket every year for services used universally by sexually active women? you know, 98% of catholic women and 99% of all women use these services. >> i know that. i understand. this is a tough one. thank you. >> thanks. >> this is going to go on. thank you melinda and michelle. i think everybody understands these positions if they're paying attention the last few minutes. up next which presidential candidate would more americans want to have working in the cubicle next to them as your office mate? who do you want next to you at work? that's in the "side show." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

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back to "hardball." now for the "side show." another great one. first up a little one-on-one. first lady michelle obama made her debut on "late night with jimmy fallon" last night and used the appearance to ramp up support for her let's move initiative. and in so doing she challenged her late night host to a fitness contest. who do you think won? let's watch. >> we're going to start with a stair race. you ready to do this? >> i was born ready.

>> superwoman. i think jimmy could have used a head start on some of those events. anyway, speaking of keeping score, it looks like newt gingrich has his own personal scoreboard on going ahead here. gingrich had a dismal finish yesterday but the candidate still thinks he has the upper hand in one area comparing himself to his rivals. here he is giving a play by play to cnn's wolf blitzer. >> do you want a lot more presidential debates? are you over all these debates? >> i'm happy either way. i think most people believe i won 15 out of 17 debates and tied one and probably you could argue i lost one. i think that's a pretty good track record. >> most people believe? is this like kids where they go to school where everybody gets a trophy, newt? when thinking about who they want to vote for in the presidential race some people put politics aside and say would i want this person to be my neighbor?

would i want to have a beer with them? well how about this? would i want them to be my office mate? a recent orc poll asked just that question. as far as the republican candidates go, these aren't big numbers. 10% of those polled would like to share a cubicle with mitt romney. 10%, one out of ten. 9%, 1 out of 11 went for ron paul. even less went for gingrich and santorum. how many went for president obama? whoa. 41%. the likability factor is nothing to brush aside here. 41% of those polled would want president obama as their office mate. that would be interesting having a president of the united states as your office mate. what would that make you? up next the culture wars are back. if gay marriage, abortion, and birth control stay in the headlines, how much could that help mr. rick santorum and how much would it hurt mitt romney? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

welcome back to "hardball." from the beginning the principal rationale for mitt romney's presidency candidacy is he is mr. fix it.

now that the economy has begun to improve three culture war issues have emerged, abortion, church and state have emerged. if it centers on those wedge issues, it's home turf for rick santorum as he tries to build on last night's big three-state sweep. joining me now our michael steele and david corn. i want your analysis right now. i thought this race like a lot of people looked like it was over and was going to get boring. i was saddened by it. it is anything but boring now. >> oh, no. >> you didn't believe me. >> rick santorum arises like a phoenix in the west. it's like he's got the midwest. he is doing well in the big eight. what used to be called the big eight. you're saying ohio, too. and there he is doing well. my question is does he get wings now from this cultural focus on issues like the church and having to pay for birth control and insurance policies? >> i think the cultural issues will give him a little lift absolutely because it puts those issues back in the debate.

but it is still going to boil down to as we know jobs, economy. >> but in the primary fight. >> in the primary fights, yeah, absolutely it gives him some leverage and ground to stand on. it's ironic because i remember telling him at one time, talk less about the cultural issues and more about the other stuff. >> now you're saying? >> hey, go for it. let's talk about it. >> times have changed? >> what he is also taking advantage of is the mitt romney vacuum. the fact that mitt is not connecting with voters on economic issues or anything else. >> he's trying to do the culture thing. >> look at the turnout. the turnout in these states is really low because no one is excited to come out for mitt romney. >> the other states. >> but so there are some diehard, you know, conservatives, social conservatives out there who did come out for rick santorum. it is still a really small base but since no one is coming out for mitt romney, if rick santorum gets out there and talks about these issues he scores big. >> these cultural issues are red hot. the civilized debate. we want to keep it there,

melinda and melissa trying to figure this thing out, they are both great journalists. it seems those issues arouse more passion than sitting around talking about bain capital and how much money you made in the equity business. >> capital gains taxes. >> how much money you made in the equity business. >> i think in a lot of ways the culture wars are not over. they stay with us. there are a lot of unresolved issues on issues not just about, you know, whether you're talking abortion and so forth but even in racial aspects of it. when you talk about for example the whole issue now with gay marriage and church. >> the gay marriage issue has popped up. >> those issues have different results and aspects. >> here's rick santorum in his victory speech last night. boy, did he deserve a victory speech, deserved to give one talking here about the president and the church, his church, the catholic church and the birth control issue. >> i never thought as a first generation american whose parents and grandparents loved freedom and came here because they didn't want the government

telling them what to believe and how to believe it that we had a first amendment that actually stood for freedom of conscience, that we'd have a president of the united states who would roll over that and impose his secular values on the people of this country. >> wow. he's acting like he thinks this is like an fdr court packing thing. overreach is the phrase you're hearing a lot. i don't know whether it is. that is to me a leap too a far but they are really playing this up as a big win for the right. >> let's remember who he is talking to. a small group of people who really believe strongly. relatively small. >> give me a number. percentage or a number. >> a percentage of republican voters, say 40%, 30% of republican voters but if you look at the catholics as a whole, a majority of catholics support the president's policy. >> no, no. >> 30% to 40% of the electorate.

>> of the republican electoral. i don't know what statistics you are quoting there but i can assure you this has, as a catholic and someone who sat and watched the faces of my congregation when the cardinal's letter, which was a very good letter, was read a couple weeks ago, this is not -- a lot of catholics even though they may use contraceptives in their own personal choice, this is about how they view the church being assaulted here. how they see -- how they perceive this as something coming against their faith not necessarily their own personal decision. >> gay marriage doesn't seem to be grabbing people for some reason that way. >> it's a dead issue for the right demographically speaking. they can try to hold on to it but it is not going to get votes in the general election. although rick santorum i would imagine since this news has come out of his victory will be using this on the campaign trail as he goes to michigan where he is trying to draw the line against mitt romney on his own turf using social issues against him. >> let me talk about the primaries. primaries are not a time to necessarily pick a president.

they're the time to express a feeling and attitude. you want to go in that voting booth. it is not essential that you vote but when you go in the voting booth like hemingway said you know what's good and bad? what you feel good about afterwards. i think people went in to vote for santorum. if they are conservatives, they want to walk out of that booth like they took a bath, not like they need one. and i think that's the difference. >> but he is drawing out people who want to make a statement while mitt romney is not. >> what is romney's statement? >> there is none. i've been saying it for six months now. there is none and that's why -- >> his position is america is beautiful. >> he is not a rebel without a cause. >> but that's the problem. he has to find that connection and this week everybody is flowing into town for cpac. what is romney going to say to this enormous gathering. >> he'll talk about his daddy or something. >> you can give a great speech in the cpac moment but what are you going to do when you get out with the rest of the country? >> look at the speeches he has

given when he won in primaries. he gets up there and basically sings "america the beautiful" and says he uses nothing but buzz words. >> remember what was said about mondale? >> what's that? >> polenta. >> thank you david corn and michael steele. a boring italian food. up next a former white house intern says she had an 18-month affair with president kennedy. there she is. the former mimi feinstein, now mimi alford. she'll tell her story tonight on msnbc's "rock center" and it should be a big show. we'll talk about it in a minute this is "hardball." [ male announcer ] we asked real people if they'd help us with an experiment for febreze fabric refresher. they agreed. [ experimenter 1 ] relax, take some nice deep breaths. [ experimenter 2 ] what do you smell? lilac. clean. there's something that's really fresh. a little bit beach-y. like children's blankets. smells like home. [ experimenter 1 ] okay. take your blindfolds off. ♪ hello? [ male announcer ] and now new and improved febreze fabric refresher with up to two times the odor elimination so you can breathe happy, guaranteed.

the republican race for president now moves to maine where a week-long caucus window culminates on saturday night. we'll have live coverage by the way this saturday night beginning at 7:00 eastern. i'll be here. "hardball" back after a minute.

we're back. it's been a half century now but the kennedy myth endorsed certainly and this week we're learning new details about the former president. certainly new details. in a new book a former white house intern opens up about what she said was an 18-month affair she had with president kennedy. her name is mimi alford and she

gave an exclusive interview to meredith vieira which will air tonight on "rock center" on nbc. let's look at a portion of that interview. >> you're 19. he's 45. what did you talk about? >> we didn't have a lot of time to talk. he was the president. what we talked about was certainly not world affairs. the president was very boyish and playful with me. >> in her book, mimi calls their sexual encounters varied and fun, describing the president as a sensualist who also enjoyed being completely silly, especially in the bathtub. >> he had a collection of little yellow rubber ducks and they were in the bathtub and rubber ducks became sort of part of the game. >> what did you do with the rubber ducks? >> we had races with rubber ducks in the bathtub. he was not being president when he was with me. >> no. he was definitely not being president. >> well there is a lot more to her story and we'll get into it now. evan thomas is the author of

numerous books, a big seller, including robert kennedy. a great book you wrote on robert kennedy's life. you and i have been looking at kennedy since we were born practically trying to figure the guy out. and what is this? i'm throwing the hot potato to you. what does the rubber ducky story tell you about john kennedy? >> complicated guy obviously. while he is saving the world from the cuban missile crisis and doing great affairs of state, he is having affairs not just with her but plenty of women. he obviously compartmented his life incredibly. unbelievably he had a good marriage even as he was doing all this terrible stuff. >> doesn't it strike you, you put together her story with the new jackie tapes. >> she was clearly devoted to him. if it's possible to be a serial philanderer and have a good marriage i guess it's not but somehow he did. >> i consider -- i think about a giant ocean liner with all these compartments heavily sealed off against each other and nobody got to walk through the compartments except him. >> absolutely. >> here is mimi alford herself writing about traveling with the president around the country. he brought her on trips. she was 19, an intern supposed

obviously his paramour where she would spend most of her time waiting in hotel rooms for the president to come see her. meredith vieira asked her about how she viewed the relationship. let's watch this part of the interview. >> and that's where you started something you called the waiting game? >> yeah, i did. waiting in the hotel room. >> did you feel at all like i'm being used here? it's almost like you were a call girl to him. >> but i never felt that. now looking back, i can see it's not a good place for 19-year-old to be, in a relationship that is so imbalanced with such a powerful person, and older man and at his beck and call. i see how sad it was but that is not how i felt at the time. >> can you give me example that would say to me this was more than just being a mistress? >> the way he was, the way he smiled with me, i feel that he did, i feel that he actually cared about me.

>> you know, we talk about this all the time with the producers, about the idea of standards, different standard at work place rules have changed. you can't have a relationship with someone below you in the food chain, that is unacceptable even outside the office. in those days no such rules, was mad men time. >> not only no rules but enablers, the aides to jack kennedy helped him, nobody is saying mr. president you shouldn't do this. quite the opposite they are helping him do this. >> what about discretion in the press in those days, i keep thinking it was all done inside the white house or in secret hotel room liaisons, assignations, room 238 i'll come by at 10:30, that wouldn't be part of the journalist surveil surveillance surveillance, a president could do that. i'm not sure what i'm argue everybody said the president changed everything, i'm not sure we changed things if a guy will be discreet and the person he's involved -- what is interesting all the women kept the secret.

my question is if they had taken to it a major newspaper editor, if they brought to it someone like you back then what would have happened? i had an affair with the president, what would they say? >> they wouldn't publish it. i think they didn't know everything but they knew a lot, i think the rules then were you do not write about the private lives of public officials. that all changed in 1975, wilbur mills jumped in the tidal basin. >> judy exner, "time" had that story but they sat on it. it sat there a long time. >> even the handling of the monica issue, that was handled carefully by the news magazines, if it got leaked by dredge. >> i was in the middle of that, we wanted to make sure we were right. >> let's look here is more, she writes the president was charm charmer, seducer, insatiable

lothario. he maneuvered me so swiftly and unexpectedly and authority and strength, short of screaming i doubt i could have done anything to th wart his intentions. meredith viera asked if she felt overpowered by the president. >> i think overpowered in the sense he was the president. he was unbelievably handsome man, 45 years old, not overpowered physically that someone had grabbed me and made me do something that i wasn't really willing to do because i really think i was willing to do it. >> it's interesting here as we talked about the interplay works, president, married, what seems to be when you listen to the tapes from jackie, a full marriage, they shared emotions, ups and downs of life in the white house. jackie knew about politics, yet this is going on.

do you think it affected him negatively, is there any evidence, was there any damage --. >> it had almost been his life. it was like breathing for him. a way of being, appalling now. >> never got over being a bachelor. >> everybody accepted that and told jackie, she was sad, i don't know how happy. >> people tell me she knew. thank you. people close to her said that. thank you evan thomas. when we return let me finish what i learned about the life of jack kennedy that fits into this. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. so, this is delicious okay... is this where we're at now, we just eat whatever tastes good? like these sweet honey clusters... actually there's a half a day's worth of fiber in every ... why stop at cereal? bring on the pork chops and the hot fudge. fantastic. are you done sweetie? yea [ male announcer ] fiber beyond recognition. fiber one. hey, i love your cereal there-- it's got that sweet honey taste.

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let me finish tonight with jack kennedy and where he saved the live of his crewmen swimming for four hours with a strap of a man's life jacket in his teeth. he saved the country with cold calculation and brazen ability to cut the secret deal that got us through. he stood up for civil rights with a strong voice and with troops to cut through history, the strong positive hopeful vision that none of us will ever forget. but he was, too, what he was. this new book by mimi alford gives us more details of a story most of us knew well, his widow did. the week after he was killed, she said all men are a combination of bad and good. she said his mother never loved him.

was she trying to explain the cold detachment, the motives of others and used for his own purpose, not to be moved by them. that edge that made him a cold steel leader so heedless of the people close by. in 1980 after he was gone, jacqueline kennedy called him the illusive man. she said after hearing someone said he made no pretense of being free from sin or imperfection, that was the one true portrait that has been done. jack kennedy prayed at his bedside, a ritual his wife thought superstitious, went to mass sunday, grieved for his lost brother and sister and child. at his boarding school he would go do mass in town, to another island in a naval officer, to confession right to the end of his life. he lived life in so many compartments, sharing himself with jacqueline in one, political confederates in another, his social pals in another.