st. louis's finest. gather round, grab a can, bottle, crack it and drink to things in life that really matter, like football and keeping your word. "up w/ chris hayes" starts right now. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. last night in portland, maine, mitt romney blasted president obama's compromise decision to require insurance companies to provide free birth control, accusing him of launching a, quote, attack on religion. jeremy lynn brought lynn-sanity to a new peak to madison square garden dropping 38 points on the lakers in a victory. we'll get to those stories in a bit. the culture war isn't done with us, my story of the week. this past week's uproar over the obama administration's

regulation requiring catholic institutions to cover preventative care, including birth control -- the plot points all seemed preor daned. the democratic president issues regulation or supports legislation that angers conservatives. punitively unbiased observers says the decision carries risk for the white house regardless of the merits of the actual policy argument. inevitably, the white house is forced to retreat, leaving nobody happen. this was the story of past week. i think it's wrong. first, the accommodation finally offered by the white house, one that would require insurance companies to independently cover the cost of birth control to women employed at catholic institutions rather than having its employer cover it seems have managed the core of the original policy. secondly and much more importantly, what was missing from this story this week was the simple but rarely articulated truth that liberals

aren't losing the culture war, we're winning it. cast your memory back for a moment to 2004. american politics looked very different, faced with an increasingly unpopular war in iraq, a steady but exceptional economy, george bush's chief strategist, karl rove, decided the president's best chance at re-election was to go all in on the culture war. president bush endorsed a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and woman and in the state's conservative groups but the referenda on the ballot. it was a morally bankrupt but astute strategy. in 2004, a majority of americans opposed gay marriage. rove updated the playbook used by nixon and reagan. of course it worked. now, fast forward to 2010. conservative darling indiana governor and former bush budget

director mitch daniels tells the weekly standard that the next president should focus exclusively on the economic issues and, quote, call a truce on the so-called social issues. we're just going to have to agree to get along for a little while. this wasn't just some push by daniels, it became the entire strategy of the right wing beltway establishment. during 2010 pac conference, i attended a party at the freedom offices. dick armey was in attendance. there was a keg. i ended up in a conversation with a young organizer from freedom works. his job was to travel the country, going to local tea party chapters and providing them with training and organizational assistance. he was supposed to nudge them aware from culture issues, abortion, prayer in school, marriage equality and towards the economic message, shrinking government, imposing austerity. from what i recall of the conversation, i'll be honest, my note pad wasn't out, he was finding this task more difficult

than he had anticipated. there was the rub. the conservative establishment never put this truce into practice because to their base, the culture war isn't a savvy political strategy. it's their entire world view and identity. none other than mitch daniels himself, the very man who articulated the so-called truce ended up signing house bill 1210 last year which barred planned parenthood from receiving medicaid funds for any health services for women. his signature on the law quickly prompted the federal government to inform indiana it would be violating federal law and risked forfeiting millions of dollars in medicaid funding the state received from the federal government. so much for the truce. we're seeing the same thing play out on the national stage. rick santorum who says birth control is, coat, not okay, swept to a surprising victory in three gop contests this week. and even the supposed moderate in the race, mitt romney wants to repeal title 10, the provision of federal law that provides family planning services to low-income women that was create under the nixon administration.

once again, the culture war is dominating headlines and driving news cycle. behind closed doors, a sure you the smartest republican strategists understand this is not good news. despite the chatter hmong pundits, polling shows a majority of catholics and independents approve of the obama administration's decision to apply the preventative care to catholic hospitals and universities. for the first time in history of polling on the issue, a majority of americans favor gay marriage. heck, even laura bush does. not only that, but in the plu plutocratic age, you don't want to be on the wrong side of the 1%. last week, billionaire mayor michael bloomberg responded to the susan g. komen foundation dumping planned parenthood by matching a contribution to lanned parenthood.

this -- >> i'm chairman and ceo of goldman saks and i support marriage equality. america's corporations learned long ago that equality is just good business and is the right thing to do. >> in american politics, if you have both a majority of voters and the 1% on the other side of an issue, it's not a question of if you'll lose but when. for a generation of liberals still scarred by mcgovern's defeat, the cultural leader out of touch with good, honest church going americans, it is difficult to internalize the fact that the left is winning the culture war. and not only are we winning, the culture war is good for progr s progressi progressives. pat buchanan wrote a strategy memo outlining a strategy for nixon. they said it would cut the democratic party and country in half but that nixon would get far the larger half. it's time for liberals to start

realizing we are now the larger half. right now, i am joined by michaela angela davis, a writer and former executive fashion and beauty editor for "essence" magazine. richard kim, my friend and colleague at the nation where he is executive editor of thenation.com, john mcwhorter and rebecca traister, a contributor to "the new york times" magazine and salon.com. thanks for coming back. the first most important bid of business, john, congratulations on the birth of your daughter. >> she's very cute. >> i saw a picture and i agree. >> we were swapping daughter pictures in the green room. okay. now that we've talked about that, am i right? are we -- are liberals winning the culture war? i felt like the whole week was this bizarre-o world where the script was playing out, i wanted to scream and say, no, no, no,

you're winning. >> it came this moment, just after the story of last week which was the susan g. komen story. that was a story in which every time issues about planned parenthood, birth control, abortion come up, we're bombarded with polls telling us this percentage, they're all confusing and they lead you to think this is an incredibly tense issue. we had an instance the week before in which the susan g. komen decision to cut off planned parenthood provoked this visceral monetary response from the united states. right? in which you could -- people paid with money. one percenters like michael bloomberg and everybody else called in. komen's boss is now apologizing. this is a moment where you could really see where people stood. yes, it was about breast cancer and a referendum on planned parenthood. the next week to have pundits telling us this is a tricky question, we don't know where

people stand was perplexing and out of touch. >> i wanted us to be careful what we call the culture war. when a gay teenager comes out to his mother or father, when a woman decides to have an abortion and tells her friends and family about that, i don't want to dignify those moral decisions by calling it a culture war. i don't want to dignify the decisions we make as a culture war. what we mean is the republican party, electoralizing a set of issues to sort of consolidate a besieged, aggrieved identity and to use that for their benefit in elections. >> this whole historical trajectory that you talk about is important. the truth is about the middle four decades of the 20th century were ones where there was a certain patriotism, it was a time where immigration was largely shut off after the 1920s. what people like pat buchanan

did was attracting the last bash t tian. what we are now is what the real america has always been. it was an interlude. yes, the left is winning on these things. >> i agree. i want to respond. the culture war is such a loaded term. i want to appropriate. i want to count of re-embrace it. in a sense when you talk about the gay teenager coming out to his or her parents, a woman's decision for an abortion, the fact of the matter is, society is changing, moral norms are changing. there is actual conflict. we can't wave it away. society is changing in a certain direction. we are growing far more tolerant and embracing of gay and lesbian people and the world of being gay and lesbian as an identity and human beings. there are people who don't like that and want to fight that.

i'm saying that's okay. >> as long as they're on the road. >> politics are about conflict, let's have the conflict and we're going to win. >> let's have, you know, challenging conversations that move things forward. i think what was so important about that clip that you saw is that in order to move things forward for women, for gays, is that you have to have people on the other side being your advocate. >> that's interesting. >> if you see a straight, white, affluent man saying i believe in marriage equality or i believe in rights for women, that's a game changer, because you get to be, you know, on the one side and you're glad or you're feminist and fighting and fighting. you end up being that cranky feminist all the time. >> as a straight white man i'm always happy to hear about the crucial role of allies in the struggle for justice. >> we need you. >> we'll talk more about this topic right after this break. i love that my daughter's part fish. but when she got asthma, all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice...

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i understand some folks in washington may want to treat this as another political wedge issue. but it shouldn't be. i certainly never saw it that way. we're not going to agree on every single issue or share every belief. that doesn't mean that we have to choose between individual liberty and basic fairness for all americans. >> that's president obama speaking yesterday about what the white house called the accommodation night. i wanted to play that clip because it outlines a view of the culture war which is different than my own which says it's a smoke screen, a losery, these things aren't in conflict and tension. i want to give you a chance to respond. >> what i meant to say earlier, they are based on the polls. that's where we're going on gay marriage and contraception.

i don't want to dignify those conversations or cap those conversations by calling it war. when we have a culture war, it's george w. bush saying the american civilization will collapse with gay marriage. you have the conversation on these incredibly broad, ridiculous terms. that's what we mean we we say the culture war, an attack dog mentality. the voters actually when you look at the polls don't care about these issues. >> here's rick santorum just a more recent sort of invocation of that kind of apocalyptic language on the call tur war. >> when you marginalize faith in america, when you remove the pillar of god-given rights, what's left is the french revolution. what's left is a government that

gives you rights. what's left are no unalienable rights. what's left is a government that will tell you who you are, what you'll do and when you'll do it. what's left in france, became the guillotine. ladies and gentlemen, we're a long way from that. but if we do and follow the path of president obama and his overt hostility to faith in america, we are headed down that road. >> the guillotine, this is our amazing crack graphic shop here at 30 rockefeller center, created the guillotine of rick santorum. that's the birth control guillotine. >> that's awesome. >> that's what your head will be in the chopping block of. i want to bring in father bill daley, visiting associate professor at notre dame law

school, a friend and frequent correspondent of mine on issues relating to the church. father bill, thank you for joining us this morning. >> it's a pleasure.not only did you get me up at 4:00 in the morning but i have an introduction of being a loser. >> being a loser doesn't necessarily mean you're on the wrong side. here's the question i want for you, just to get to the announcement yesterday by the president on this accommodation. what was your sense of the reaction to that, your own personal reaction, where you think the church will go, the statement by the bishops was sort of luke warm. >> statements later in the day actually became a little more heated and less luke warm. i think that there's -- look, the objection on thursday was that catholic institutions, such as the university of notre dame from which i am speaking to you would be forced to purchase insurance that was going to pri

services that we regard as gravely immoral and unjust. that was the reality on thursday. on friday, the president's supporters as you rightly pointed out, should celebrate. after the accommodation, institutions like notre dame will be required to purchase some items. the university of notre dame shouldn't bad about this because we wouldn't have to inform people that they are being purchased by us. as an accounting matter, it's arguably true in the long run, the costs will come down and so there's argument about whether they're actually free. as your client's blog points out, the church's objection was never that it was going to cost more money. if you told us our insurance premiums would go down by

providing gravely immoral and unjust services, that wouldn't have changed our minds about it. >> the objection is two-fold. narrow objection is the one you've articulated we're getting into this funny territory, right? we're having a secular policy discussion but also trying to have a debate about how many angels fit on the head of a pin about where the money comes from satisfies the religious objections. right? it strikes many he that we're at the point now where like an orthodox jewish family that sets a timer for its light, there's a religious ruling that we need to make sure we cleared this bar, whether this accounti ining cha so you say. but the broader question is, the bishops also seemed to object to anyone having to provide birth control as well. that's what we're seeing develop in the statements that are coming out subsequently. isn't that right? >> there's no question that there's a policy objection to the broad idea of treating a

woman's fertility as a disease that needs to be managed or treating a pregnancy as a disease that needs to be prevented. the re-definition of health care services away from the prevention of disease and the treatment of pathology toward, well, if a doctor prescribes it, even though what it's really about is a cultural change, a shift in attitude toward human relationships, sexual relationship and toward reproduction, which is a moral argument. the law is going to reflect society and morality as your introduction pointed out. there's the broader policy disagreement and there are narrower disagreements that come down, including legal ones under, for instance, the religious freedom restoration act. they've chosen to get involved in them by this application of the president's health care reform and the courts will have to sort out whether this is a narrowly tailored effort for a compelling government interest, roughly speaking the test under the religious freedom restoration act.

the technical issues will be there. once those are settled, unlike any other set of citizens we could say we think society would be reluctant to go down the path of treating fertility as something that needs to be treated or managed. last night i was invited by a group of young women's students, to the opening mass for a conference here at notre dame. it's a project organized by undergraduate women who take the progressive position in their minds that the society's attitude toward their fertility needs to be challenged and corrected. yes, that broader issue is one the church is willing to bring to the public square but the narrower question of funding is also important as relates to this issue. >> the folks here in the studio are anxious to respond to you. and i want to leave -- i want to have -- put one more thought out there, which is when you said that essentially the government has chosen to enter this area, the point i want to make and the point of my opening was that it's inevitable that will

happen. bob jones university thought that the government was entering into their private doctrinal dispute when it told them it had to integrate. it was a doctrinal matter for bob jones university that they could not integrate. that was part of their conscience and faith. right? the question of who chose the fight, i think is an interesting one to frame. i'd like to get your thoughts on that and our pan toll join us right after we take this break. f the past is a powerful thing. but we couldn't simply repeat history. we had to create it. introducing the 2013 lexus gs, with leading-edge safety technology, like available blind spot monitor... [ tires screech ] ...night view... and heads-up display. [ engine revving ] the all-new 2013 lexus gs. there's no going back. so i wasn't playing much of a role in my own life,

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♪ all right. father bill daley at notre dame university, low professor, i floated a provocative parallel which i want to let you respond to before we get to the folks on the panel who definitely want to respond to some of the things you said in the previous block. how is this different than bob jones? what is the -- what distinguishes the catholic church's objection here to bob

jones' objection and maybe you think that we should have listened to bob jones's objections. >> no. it's not a matter -- that's a sort of process question. does every objection that claims to be a religious objection deserve the same accommodation? no. we think we should be able to talk about the issues on merits and we're happy to do so. i don't think taking the view we have, that having to provide sterilization and to support sterilization as a part of not what is a health care service but as a broader lifestyle choice, that as you say, the larger culture is moving toward but that even the obama administration by having a narrow conscience clause objection thinks it's worthy of some respect for the other side in a way they presumably wouldn't in the bob jones case. i think even the white house's own position here which thinks that some conscience protections are due is one that recognizes this is not tantamount to

racism, whatever our disagreement is about the appropriateness of the government mandating our participation in a scheme that views homan sexuality radically differently from what the catholic church has viewed it as. >> we have a response. >> he used the words gravely, immoral and unjust. in reference to birth control itself. i think that gets to the heart of what we are talking about. we are talking about, obviously he's holding forth on his objection to birth control. i want to suggest there are a bunch of issues in play. when we talk about the culture war and personal observation conversations, religious conversations, we often forget these are conversations about economic equality, about social equality. when you talk about circumscribing a woman's ability to control her reproduction, whether through birth control or to my mind abortion, you are talking about circumscribing her ability to earn equality,

control her career and the size of her family. you are talking about circumscribing her ability to exist as an equal citizen within this nation. when i hear the reverend talking about it being gravely immoral and unjust, i think about grave immorality and injust on another side of this question. i think we have to be clear what we are talking about is -- i can't believe we're talking about it in 2012, do women have the right to use birth control pills? when does it stop? does it stop at condoms? we are in an incredibly bizarre world where we have lost the morality of women's ability to function as full citizens in our democracy when we're having this conversation. >> i think that the -- i was getting uncomfortable with often hearing gravely immoral and unjust, too, particularly around issues that women generally have to face, coming from men con stanley that will never have to face this choice. i would have loved to see some

of these young catholic women speak of it because the polls have showed that 98% of catholic women use birth control. e women morally unjust? are they not good catholics because they need to have a family they can control? if you can have birth control, that is almost securing a certain amount of women into poverty forever. >> absolutely correct. >> please. >> can i add one thing. >> yes, and then i want to get to father bill. >> when father daley talks about forcing catholic institutions to provide birth control, he's talking about the institutions, not the woman. no one is going to force a catholic woman to take birth control. we're talking about women who are choosing, whether they are catholic or not, to say i need this service. >> right. >> you're talking about institutional power that's being denied, not personal religious freedom. >> father bill, there's a lot of 0iously to respond to. respond to one specific thing which is -- two specific thingsp

this one is the argument that is made, to me it's quite compelling that it's a little hard in a moral secular conversation about a policy choice in civic society to listen to the bishops who are by definition a group of celibate men. essentially this is -- there's such a disconnect between the actual behavior of the members of the church, between the faithful and the bishops and the official church doctrine that it seems -- it seems bizarre to craft social policy around a doctrinal point that is ignored in the practice of the faithful. you have 30 seconds. i'm kidding i'm kidding. >> in the midst of a culture war i'd like to be ironic to begin

with. i want to be absolutely clear that neither i nor the church disagrees that if women are not treated as fully equal citizens in our economy, in our country, in terms of all political and human rights, then that is a gravely immoral and unjust situation. we don't happen to agree that the provision of artificial birth control, of sterilization and of abortive fashion drugs is a way to achieve equality for wait a minute. there's no disagreement that it would be gravely immoral and unjust not to create a political order in which women are fully participatory citizens, fully free and productive members of the economy and are able to pursue their ends and happiness just as much as anyone else. >> on that we're certainly in full agreement. we disagree to the essential component of that strategy, whether it needs to include something like this mandate. as to your first specific question, which i guess the heart of it is whether there's

some kind of epistymic divide, i reject the notion that there's a divide, that women panelists can't talk to us and we can't talk to them and use publicly available reasons, right? and yes, are these religious authorities? sure. but president obama was evoking religious authority at the prayer breakfast in favor of his largely liberal social agenda, the winning agenda as you would call it. he supports what he believes are the correct means in society, equality among men and women and among the races. when he evokes his own biblical and theological principles to do that, he can do that. finally as to the 98% point, 98% of catholics may well from time

to time fall afoul of this teaching. i would venture to say 98% to 100% of catholics covet their neighbors goods. i'm probably going to be a candidate for coveting my neighbor's goods. we have the sacrament of reconciliation. we invite people who fall short of the teachings not to, therefore, revise the teaching and say we all lie from time to time, why don we get rid of the prohibition on lying. i can tell you as a confessor, i hear catholics confessing that they have misgivings about their use of artificial birth control. the vote doesn't necessarily reflect whether they have moral misgivings and in fact disagree with the church. some surely do. for 30 years, priests in this country as you would have heard chris matthews say yesterday on the "morning joe" program, bishops in this country had no confidence in the teaching. there has been a revival since

the pontificate of john paul ii. >> there's a lot to respond to in there and we are going to respond to it right after we take this break. what a bargain! [ female announcer ] sometimes a good deal turns out to be not such a good deal. but new bounty gives you value you can see. in this lab demo, one sheet of new bounty leaves this surface cleaner than two sheets of the leading ordinary brand. so you can clean this mess with half as many sheets. bounty has trap and lock technology to soak up big spills and lock them in. why use more when you can use less? bring it with new bounty. so i get claritin clear

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more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get more project for your money - like this valencia vanity, now just 199 bucks. all right. we are in the midst of a very intense discussion over the ds- over the president's decision about employers, catholic universities and hospitals are the most common example. father bill daley laid out where he's coming from on this. richard, i wanted to get you in here. >> i respect your response.

i want to ask you, would you support a law banning all forms of birth control? the united states? do you think the catholic church should take that position and use its considerable resources and moral resources to make that happen in this country? >> the catholic church doesn't take that position, hasn't taken that position. and i'm not here to advocate for that position. certainly we encourage people to view their fertility, to view the human sexual relationship and marital relationships differently from the dominant culture. but in no part of this as the church thought or advocated that there should be a diminution of this. we don't see how it's a part of health care, traditionally what is treating a pathology. the use of birth control drugs,

sam stein yesterday asked an excellent question. at least 14% of prescriptions for birth control bills aren't about human relations, about choices in the moral realm. the church has no objection for the use of these drugs for that. that is covered by the insurance plans already. >> let me jump in and take church prerogative here. forget about fertility and reproductive health. i think the vision of medicine solely as treating pathology is antiquated outside of that realm generally. i think there's been a real change and to look at wellness as a positive attribute. we see that, for instance, in health insurance companies considering gym memberships, yoga, in which someone is well, they have no pathology but we understand there are ways in which medicine can be part of someone's life that brings them to greater wealth. >> i understand that.

but then there's a question of what constitutes wellness. >> to follow up, in the wake of this, the republicans are now saying they want to introduce legislation. senator roy blunt has offered an amendment to the contraception ruling. basically they want to create a total conscience carve-out for anyone for basically any reason. to any provision of coverage, right? the interesting point here is, if we respect depaul university or, you know, hospitals, conscien conscien conscience -- conscientious objection. it would allow respecting rights to specific rights and services, paying for coverage of such

specific items or services contradictory to the religious beliefs or moral convictions of the sponsor, issuer, or other entity offering plan. do you anticipate the bishops getting behind this legislative push? >> well, certainly the bishops are going to want to be supportive of the broadest kinds of conscience protections as possible. i suspect in another context so would you and your panelist. let's think about the conscientious objection to war. it's difficult to prove to the satisfactory of the military is one in a conscientious objector. of course we don at lou it to be to a particular war. you have to object to all war. you can't serve in the military and say afghanistan yes, iraq, no. these are difficult pragmatic ways of dealing with conscience. i'm not sure there's a one size

fits all answer. >> the different levels of powers in bishops and pass p pacifyists. >> the impact is not just on your own military service, for instance, it's on all the women who you might be providing this health care for. >> that's right. >> again, what we're talking about when we're talking about limiting things, an entire population, often populations who don't have access to taking care of their own body. >> the catholic church in this instance is only fighting contraception in terms of its own religious liberty. that's been a long-standing policy. at the height of the aids epidemic when people sought to put condoms in schools and do sex education to prevent disease, it took a position against that. this is not just about a policy about notre dame or depaul. >> father bill daley, we could have this conversation -- the reason we took a position against that.

>> we do not have time for your response to that. i'll have you back on the program. i thought this morning's discussion was fantastic. thank you for taking the time and getting up early. >> i'll wear my cubs hat. >> absolutely. professor of law at notre dame university. thank you so much. >> thank you. a federal appeals court rules california's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional. one group emerge as a clear winner in the culture war and that's next. when you have tough pain, do you want fast relief?

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dignity news, depending on how you look at it. washington state voted to allow gay marriage. proposition 8 was declared unconstitutional. there were hurdles to clear in both states. there's a petition the national organization of marriage is trying to get a referendum to overturn the washington law and the appellate court decision might get appealed to the supreme court. it was yet another good week. i think of, like, this is a weird thing to say, i think of all the different people i know as a reporter who work in different areas of activism, organ immigrant rights or whatever. the one group that gets to celebrate a lot are gay rights groups. there are genuine tangible victories in that sphere in a way that makes you think about progress being possible at some point. >> i want to put a wet blanket on that. >> oh, richard. >> there are 29 states where there are state constitutional

amendments banning same-sex marriage or in some cases even civil unions and domestic partnerships. those will be difficult to remove. >> good point. >> what we are seeing and what we're going to have is this kind of weird red/blue america where on the coast you will have the states where the -- >> and iowa. don't forget iowa. >> and maybe illinois. but in large tracks of the country you will have a very different set of rights available. >> isn't that the way you would expect it to go? we're an intermediate state. it starts out with these coastal places that have views of these changes happening and it's foreseeable that change will happen in other parts of the country. it means that the news right now is good. right? there's glass half full, glass half empty. >> i've always been an advocate for not getting out too far ahead of the public on this. i think a state-by-state strategy other than a moon shot supreme court strategy has been better.

>> or passing the federal law to mandate gay marriage to everyone. exactly. >> i didn't mean to say we should go slow. a couple weeks ago we were supposed to be upset when newt gingrich had tart to say about the black aspect and people were cheering and we're supposed to think they are the people out there. there is the battle and they are going to take over. i saw it as a shrinking group of people. kor okay, a camera caught them clapping. same-sex marriage, the people who aren't with it are increasingly on the ropes. more in one part of the country than the other but the news is the good. >> ♪ it'

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maggie gallagher subject of

a long fprofile salon.com and i joining us. my first question is just not on substance. about the politics and about the society. do you feel, as someone who is opposing marriage e qualiqualit do you feel? >> i don't oppose marriage equality. i only oppose same-sex marriage but that's a terminology issue. >> sure. >> you know, the truth is that we have won in the majority of times, we have won 31 out of 31 times we have taken it to the people and we have also won the majority of the court cases and i do believe that when this gets to the supreme court, the ninth circuit divided ruling is going to be overturned that the supreme court will not find a right to gay marriage in the federal constitution. >> what do you think about the polling that does seem to be quite clear in terms of the directionality of it? i think we have polling we can put up.

that -- that -- that you see those lines opposition and -- and support moving in opposite directions. what -- what -- what is your explanation of those trends? >> first of all, the polling has become very sensitive to how the question is asked so you is find polling that says different things. a poll as recently as six months ago that showed 60% of americans define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. so -- but i think the poling is getting very sensitive because people are rightly concerned about the feelings of gay people and they want to seem tolerant and they want to express support. i don't see the direction of those translines as all negative. i will say that we have not yet found a single instance where gay marriage advocates are willing to take it to the people in a referendum battle, except in maine perhaps. we will find out there. but, typically, they block in state legislatures any effort to give the question to the people. it's not just me that don't trust those polls, it's gay

marriage advocates, at least the ones who are working on the ground. >> except now in four of seven states have passed gay marriage and happened legislatively. in 2012 a move this year to put gay marriage up to repeal prop 8 in california as an initiative which i think is winnable there. >> i think they decided not to but i could be wrong. maine the gay marriage advocates may be pushing to have another referendum in 2012. of course, there will be marriage amendments on the ballot in minnesota defining marriage as one man and one woman and north carolina carolina this may. >> maggie, i want to ask you a question and i've wanted to ask -- someone with your politics for a while. when i survey the scene of american marriage the thing that strikes me as a greatest threat to marriage is not gay couples and lesbian couples forming to commit a relationship it's no-fault divorce. the change in the law to create no-default divorce was the union

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good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes here with john mcwerder and also a new father. rebecca tracer, author of the book "big girls don't try the thing that changes everything for american women in politics." and richard kim, my colleague at the nation where he is the executive editor of nation.com and joining us on the satellite is maggie gallagher cofounder of the national organization for marriage. before we went to break, maggie, i asked you about no fault divorce the effect it's had on the institution of marriage which i think is far greater

than anything happen for the struggle of gay and lesbian equality on the issue. do you think we should have an issue to roll back no-fault divorce? >> i think the single biggest problem for marriage is our 40% of rate out of wedlock births. if if i wasn't involved in the gay marriage fight and may have time since i stepped down as chairman of the board, i think that is what i'd like to most figure out how to get the numbers reduced. the divorce rate has actually declined in recent years. >> it has? >> mostly since 1982 was the peak of the divorce rate. and it's declined mostly because growing numbers of people who would have been susceptible to divorce are just living together without marriage, having children, and the breakups of their family aren't being counted in our divorce rate. but to answer your question, you know, i spent about 20 years on the question of family structure do we have too much divorce, too

much unmarriage child-bearing? i did this because i was an unwed mother for ten years, so i began to believe the progressive myths of the 1980s i was being told this was great for women were kind of a little on the crazy side, frankly, if you have practical experience with what it means to raise a child alone. >> i have practical experience. i am an unmarried mother that has very practical experience of being that. i don't call myself a single mother. i call myself an unmarried mother because my married partner is 100% with me and i have the happiest and brilliant daughter ever and our family is intact and it's loving and the family that we created. so when you position unwed mothers as somehow deviant or wrong or not progressive it's an insult. >> did i do that? >> to very successful families that don't fit inside your coninstruct. >> listen. i think if you are happy

television commentator who managed to construct a happy wonderful family outside of marriage you're such an exception that maybe we shouldn't worry that you're -- you're oversensitive about when someone says it's hard to raise a child alone. >> that's not true. >> as blaming women for being deviant! >> i was in my 20s and i grew and so there are many women -- >> i'm glad it worked for you but it it doesn't work for a lot of women and children. >> you seem to be concerned with issues of children and single parenthood you're saying in many cases is not good for children and there is data on that. it depends on demographics and situation. by way of review, if that is what you're interested in and the effect of divorce on that as well, what is the same sex problem? what is the idea that same-sex marriages are bad for child rearing or not -- not as good marriages as ones between a man and a woman by way of review?

>> it actually goes back to the original question about no-fault divorce which is, you know, the real question is i didn't fight that battle because i was like 15 when it happened. but you're right. it was a fundamental change in the understanding of marriage in which the government decided to no longer side with the vow but to give all of the power to the person who wants to break up the marriage and i think it's a problem. >> what does have that to do with same-sex marriage? what does it hurt? >> it goes to -- it goes to the way in which the foundational understanding of marriage. we were told at that time that no-fault divorce would only effect the bad marriages but really is affected all of the marriages because it changed the public understanding of it and i think that that is what same-sex marriage does, it takes an institution that is prepolitical and not created by the government, although it is protected by the government -- >> you're saying same-sex marriage -- is less stable? you seem to be side-stepping the question. >> but it's because you think this is a question about gay couples and for me, it's a question about marriage and that is a kiss connect. it's very hard to talk over that

disconnect. >> you're saying -- >> for a reason. it's not -- it's not that there is something else called marriage which is stability that i'm trying to deny gay couples. it's that if you want to be a husband, if you want the title, you need to take on the work of loving a woman and any children that she has. that's what marriage is. if you change the public definition of marriage, for me and millions, i know a lot of people have already changed their definition of marriage and why they can't each understand why there is any problem but if you have this deep belief and rooted in human nature, right, that marriage is about bringing together mail and female so children have mothers and fathers, same-sex marriage is just -- -- denial of that reality. >> mrs. gallagher i think your organization failed to present any evidence that same-sex marriage impacts heterosexual marriages. you have advocated for gay -- >> i have not. i have not.

i have not done any of those things. >> anti-gay -- >> you can make any conclusion you want but you've made up a bunch of facts that aren't true. >> please clarify. >> well, i've never advocated for gay repair therapy and the national organization for marriage does not. we focus on fighting for laws that define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. i think you've created -- someone you can throw darts at. i don't know what to say. it is true i am a roman catholic so i probably couldn't agree with you on questions of sexual morality and a lot of women are angry the government is intervening with our churches' institutions. but anyway i don't know what to tell you. you have a false picket of what i am and what i believe. >> articles calling gay marriage a mental and physical health problem. >> you're confusing us with some other organization. >> okay. >> it's not true. >> look. luckily the good thing about

this show we're on tomorrow and we will -- we can actually issue empirical rulings. >> you want to have me back on and discuss what you find? i'd be very surprised. i keep a close track of what goes up on our website. it's true we link to variety of articles. we ling to the advocate and gay press because we link to an article doesn't mean we are endorsing it on our blog. >> the last question for you, maggie. you said you're a roman catholic. >> yeah. >> i thought the articulation of where you're coming from on this issue in terms of this deep definitional issue of marriage is fundamentally about bringing together male and female, is there a grounding for that outside of religious authority? i mean -- >> oh, yeah, i think there is. >> to me it seems a crucial question because such an aeye lance of this sort of religious right and politicized group of believers and this battle -- we saw mormon church's active in prop 8 when you say that has zero appeal to me as a secular person in society where -- where

does that argument appeal to? >> i think every human society has recognized there is a special need to bring together male and female so children have mothers and fathers. this is kind of a big, broad human idea. not grounded in any specific religious tradition, although i do think that people with religious convictions have just a much a right as people with secular moral convicts to advocate in the public square. >> maggie gallagher, cofounder of the national organization for marriage, appreciate you coming on this morning. >> thank you so much. the author of the book "going solo." eric:be kleinberg will join us next. cked up back in the '80s. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 like a lot of things, the market has changed, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 and your plans probably have too. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we'll give you personalized recommendations tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 on how to reinvest that old 401(k). tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck

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all right. wow. that first 90 minutes have taken a lot out of me! i'm not going to lie. all right. just keeping going with the backdrop to the culture war has changed. one of the most striking of these latter changes is more people live alone now than at any other time in history. in 1950, 4 million american adults or 9% of households lived alone. today, 31 million of adults live alone. 17 million are women compared to 14 million men. in manhattan where our studio is and we are sitting right now almost half of the people here live alone and those statistics can make some people uncomfortable about the future of the american household and american family and what it will look back. i want to bring in eric

klinenberg whose newberg is on this topic kouled "going -- called "going solo." thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me here. >> it's a demographic trend we never hear about. i'm curious how you wrote a book on people living alone. >> i came in it on the dark side like most of us. we think about living alone, we tend to think about isolation or loneliness. i had written a book about a heat wave in chicago where hundreds of people died and hundreds of people died alone. it was a tragedy and i got concerned about how this could happen. so i started studying living alone in america, thinking about it as a social problem and then i learned the numbers that you just gave. now 32 million americans, according to the last census are living alone. it's a bigger story than the heat wave in chicago i learned.

in fact, i came to see it as probably the greatest social change of the last 50 years that we have failed to name or identify that people living alone in all cities, all life's stages and it's transformed who we are. >> one thing you note in the book this is not just an american trend. in fact, this is trending. the numbers look somewhat similar and more exaggerated in other places. >> you know, so surprising to learn that. i think about the conversation here over the last several minutes about american policy and the things we do in this country and, you know, we have got to see the changes in this country as part of a global trend. so little things that we do in state policies are not going to have enormous impacts. the truth is this is not a story about america's culture of individualism and self-reliance, as much as i thought that was going to be the case. we are laggarded in living alone when it comes to the international scene. people live alone today wherever and whenever they have the economic security and independence to do it.

>> this, to me, the most interesting part of the book it says something extremely profound about human nature. >> yeah. >> and counterintuitive which is basically when societies get affluent enough and they are like peace! do you know what i mean? we think, oh, the clan, everybody is going to -- you know, we want to huddle together. i'm out. yoed to i don't need to sit at thanksgiving dinner with -- >> you can take that to a sad story the way we have cut ourselves off from one another, us and our blackberries and we don't want anybody else around. the surprising thing it turns out that compared to married people, people who live alone are actually more socially engaged and spend more time with their friends and spend more time with neighbors. they are more likely to go out into cities in the public sphere and encounter strangers and real shocker they are more likely to

volunteer in civic organizations. you know what is fascinating to me? women are especially more likely to volunteer because it turns out marriages can be a little bit greedy. they pull people out of the public world. >> someone can relate to that, right? >> it's interesting, because there is something about being able to afford companion and it's difficult to manage your children and a lot of people get married for economic reasons whether it was to man the farm or whatever. when you get out of that economic need, you can actually have time. particularly women rarely have the time to be self-reflective to check on our emotional hygiene? you're so busy wiping butts, you know? it is a gift to be alone sometimes and to celebrate this idea that you do have an internal life and you feel more apt to share.

>> i was absolutely shocked when i got married at 40, which is relatively late, how suddenly everybody seemed to think that that made me -- i don't want to say a man, but a real person. >> yeah. >> as if it's somehow a badge of being a mature human being to live under a legal arrangement with another person. whereas, i think that is a matter of social history and we're moving past that being the assumption, i think. >> i have already read and loved your book, in large part, because i am knee-deep in the midst of writing my own book particularly about women, unmarried women. one of the things we are talking about our personal experiences, but also in terms of social history. what we have seen in the past 50 years, in terms of women staying unmarried to -- beyond being 18, 20, 22, which is just started to happen really in the last 30 years, is when you have two years of being independent, ten years or a whole life of being independent you are seeing the creation of a life stage for women that has never historically existed before and the creation of a population of

socially, sexually, economically, professional, independent women who are consuming and earning and participating in ways they never have historically. >> we have a graph that shows us an interesting way. marriage rates in 1960 versus 2000. >> amazing. >> when it shows -- no, that is the decline in marital status which is also interesting! right? that goes from 72% in 1960 to 51% in 2010 which is a massive, massi massive sociological shift. it shows the blue line is 2 it 000, right? when you see it push down into the right, what that means is people are waiting longer to get married and also marrying less. both of those things are happening at the same time. >> there's a big story to tell here about why this change has happened and economic independence is a big thing. we could drill down more. turns out an enormous story to tell here and i can't help but think of it in the last comment

is women getting control of their lives and time and space and delay marriage, to get out of a marriage when it's not working, when it's brutal when it's more lonely than being alone. this conversation -- >> amen! >> about no-fault divorce, this conversation, how on earth could anyone be advocating for a policy that traps people in miserable situations, sometimes violent situations? thank goodness we don't live in a time when you can't get out of a marriage that is so brutal. i don't say this as an advocate for or against either condition. i'm a married guy with two kids. when a marriage works well, it works really well but we know what happens when it doesn't. >> there is this assumption if you are not married that you're not in a rich relationship. >> right. >> if you're living single, that you don't -- that you're not also -- also even creating family. >> so let me just say i think the tendency for us has been to look at the big social changes and think of them as problems. the way i approach this is we

have 200,000 years of history as a species living collectively in domestic spaces. we have about 50 or 60 years. >> a crazy experiment. >> of living alone. it's an incredible social experiment. what i'm interested in doing is trying to appreciate all of the ways we are are learning to adapt. >> i want to talk about what the effects have been socially as we run through this experiment after this break. >> is everybody married? [ male announcer ] if you believe the mayan calendar, on december 21st, polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space, which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd and you still need to retire, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans?

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>> we are here with eric solo."erg about his great book what are some of the consequences of it for a society? how does it ripple out? i mean, if we're not seeing it as something addressed directly, how is it -- what causes there having that we are seeing? >> a couple of stories you could tell about this. one of them it's a driver of a lot of economic growth in cities because it turns out that whereas 50 or 60 years ago living alone is something people did in the large sprawling western states of wyoming and alaska. >> miners going out? >> today living alone is an urban phenomenon. you said in manhattan it's 1 out of 2 households. atlanta, seattle, san francisco, 40% or more have one in the

household. in stockholm more than 60%. you have a lot of people generating demand for real estate. as bad as real estate is right now think about what the market would look like without all of these purchasers out there. it turns out on average per capita consumption of people living alone is greater than people living in families surprisingly. businesses are waking up to this. on the other side, policy issues about about the danger of isolation. not the majority of people living along but old people who get sick and the people i studied in the heat wave book. >> exactly. one of the points you're very careful to talk about repeatedly in the book is that the group of people living alone is a bunch of categories. we have in mind like 28, you live in the east village. you're chillin'. but the '81-year-old women who lives in the bronx and has to get her groceries in the cart every day. >> a distinction of living alone

and being alone, right? >> this is a big point. unfortunately, i think, a lot of our conversations about this change confuse or conflate living alone with being alone and feeling lonely and, in fact, these are dramatically different things and we need to be much more careful in the way we speak about it. in the book, i break down three different main categories of people who go solo. they are the older people in 65 and above who account for about 11 million of people who live alone. it's fascinating because that is the population we get worried about and certain conditions we should, i know as well as anyone from the heat wave book, but the great majority of people older and living alone tell you they would strongly prefer that situation over the other available options. they don't want to move in with their children or family or friends and don't want to move into nursing homes, least of all. so they are opting into it and paying a premium which is really interesting. >> headline breaking. people don't like each other!

sociologists are saying! >> just kidding. >> but it's important to kind of point out that this is one possible interpretation, but the numbers don't say that. the real truth is that people have found interesting new ways to be social. so even older people, a study done in the american sociological review showing older people who live alone socialize more with friends and neighbors than older people who are married. we shouldn't think of this asbestos a world of edward hopper paintings. a different imagery. you think about the cover of the book has the sparrows on the birdhouses it's partly because we have seen so many images of loneliness and isolation and it conjures of a feeling of medicalliy an melan koly. medicallian collie.

>> can you imagine a society where it was considered interesting that people would choose to live with someone else rather than alone? >> yeah. i mean, a great question. how far to you extrapolate out this trend? >> here is the thing. what people do today around the world wherever they can afford it they move in and out of different situations. i'm not talking about a world where people get married to their own apartments. you live alone for a time, you live with someone some time. if you're lucky and things work well you live with someone a long time but as we have seen the numbers it doesn't work out and you get your own place. the biggest group of people adults between 35 and 65 who usually have been married or lived with someone before and after the separation, they see living alone as a way to get back on their feet to get the time for themselves and socialize on their own terms and definitely rejecting the other options. finally, i should say the other group which has been the fastest

rising group in recent decades are young adults 35 and under. now we put off marriage and having children as long as we do and in big cities people don't get marriage on average after 30 for the first time in history, living alone and getting your own place is how you become an adult. that is the transition. away from your roommates who are fun to hang out for a while. >> that gets old. >> that really is a paradigm. but, also, you know, just in talking about loneliness as a construct. i contend nothing lonelier than being in a relationship and feeling lonely. when you are living alone, the loneliness is not -- it's very different. >> that's right. >> so when you start to look and you expand the narratives of what it is, you get to examine things like that that there is this assumption because you are in a relationship that you're not lonely. >> absolutely. >> and i think to explore that is really interesting. >> rebecca? >> i'm fascinated by the notion

that i think we talk often as if there is one answer and the idea of being coupled what she is saying is the idea of being coupled is one result and living solo and the thing i love about your cyclical formation is what it's coming down to is a more fluid society in which we can make choices as we go along rather than consigned to a historic script and gives us more power. >> to tie into the theme this morning. those kinds of changes of more choice, a, can be personally terrifying and socially disruptive. social disruption produces actual conflict. >> the reason that there have been these kind of sensational articles covered of the -- all of the single ladies we are living through this transition and puts pressure on us as individuals to figure out how to live. there is not a road map how to do this. >> there is not a script.

>> it's completely tied into discussions of birth control and discussions of being able to exert these kinds of choices how our lives are going to go. again, rather than living by outdated script. >> eric klinenberg, author of "going solo." i urge you to read it. thank you for coming in. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we will be back after this. look! the phillips' lady! we have to thank you for the advice on phillips' caplets. magnesium, right? you bet! phillips' caplets use magnesium. works more naturally than stimulant laxatives... for gentle relief of occasional constipation. can i get an autograph? [ female announcer ] live the regular life. phillips'.

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>> in 2001, maggie gallagher wrote a column called fixing sexual orientation. she writes at minute a sexual dysfunction human beings seeking to help in oversexual dysfunction expect support and more research dollars and advocating for federal funding. >> that is a may 10th 2001 column. we will post a link to it on our website. there it is. we are not making it up. >> there you go. >> all right. so i wanted you to come back, richard. we never got to -- i thought the conversation with father bill daley was fascinating and we got into an interesting place how we adjudicate these competing claims in a secular society with religious institutions but not the cable top line cable news analysis did the obama administration win the week? did they manage to politically extricate themselves from what

everybody was say i heard the sprays stepped in time and time again. rebecca, you had strong feelings on this. >> i did. this is not something i've often said necessarily about the obama administration's strategy and handling of the media. i thought it was genius this week. ! i thought it was brilliant! i was so happy! i think that the accommodation they called it and not a compromise was a miraculous thing that satisfied both sides, not father daley but carole king. >> she ask a nun and and a crucial ally of the affordable care act. the ally i think the reporting showed the white house was most worried about alienating with the original decision which she criticized. continue. >> also satisfied women's groups, pro choice groups, roux productive health care advocates. the markable thing about this what decision did took the curtain off what this

conversation is really about. there had been this grain of real intellectual dissient. they allowed the conversation to go on two weeks and got all of the republican candidates including the ones at c-pac this week and everybody on the right to argue against birth control. >> yes. >> they took what was the grain of an intellectual dispute and made it blow up into republican candidates saying birth control is not a good idea. this is something that the huge majority of americans disagree with! this is not a winning position and now the republicans on that side of that position and with the accommodation it makes the argument we are now going to have and i'm sure a continued argument, other bills coming down the road and bishops are not going to be happy. >> right. >> but we have now made it about birth control which is what it was always about, by the way. >> that's right. >> you see on the other side of, this you have the republican caucuses in missouri and

minnesota. there are about 400,000 people caucused and they supported rick santorum. 2% issues gay marriage and abortion, contraception is what they are voting on in these issues. my reaction to that is go for it, guys. if that is your party, if your party is 2% party, go for it. >> i also think -- i also think that -- that -- that the other sort of amazing political ramification of, and something we talk about tomorrow morning's program as we talk more directly about the gop race after the main caucus tonight which i'm anchoring live coverage on if you're sitting around on a saturday night and want to see what the republican voters in maine think about all of this. >> and stay up late. >> you dooch to stay up late. it's 6:00 p.m. there is a case made this has actually helped elevate rick santorum, right? >> absolutely. >> the other thing it is deathly intervened in the internal argument in the republican party about who is the superior candidate. we saw santorum's victories

tuesday in the two caucus states and the fake primary in missouri which is a strange beauty contest. we now see national polling i think to be released today or tomorrow that santorum genuinely up ahead and strong performance in c-pac. the white house have maneuvered the gop base into, you know -- >> into somebody swing voters will never pay attention to. >> never in a million years. if the white house would gave a magic wand and have rick santorum the person they are running against this fall i guarantee you they would do it. >> everybody is -- weird -- this fantasy about birth control being bad. you're like, wow! this is the republican party! >> obama has the sharp elbows he is often accused not having and worked out very well. >> this was ingenious. even the leaked story about biden and daley and panetta talking as this sort of guys, the catholic guys in the white

house. which if this had gone a different way might have made my head pop out but it worked in great political theater. but it provided the blow in which there was this old white guys talking and taking the traditional position and having the president's ear and he came out with an accommodation to everyone. brilliant! >> the final point is the teachable moment on all of this people say who is going to pay for it? insurance companies pay for it because it is revenue neutral. of course, is that unintended pregnants whether carried to term or terminated are expensive. if you give people birth control you end up with a -- neutral on the ledger. what do we know now we didn't know last week? my answer after this. all i coul! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different.

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planned parenthood earned more per year than the annual grant they got from the komen foundation. that was not true and it was incorrect. the annual grant to planned parenthood was $86,000. according to their latest irs 990 form posted on their website planned parenthood richards earned over $300,000 per year. in a second i'll tell you what i didn't know when the week began but now it's time for a preview what is coming up this morning with alex witt. >> we talk about the maine event. it's either mitt romney or ron paul in today's maine caucus. newt gingrich's wife took to the podium with the c-pac convention and warmed up to tcrowd. you will hear what she had to say. nbc's harry smith will talk about one of the most unusual sights he ever seen up close.

that is the costa concoria. >> we know despite a concerted effort by catholic bishops in the republican party to deny no cost birth control coverage they will be able to get that coverage after all. we also now know that mitt romney yet to close the deal with republican primary voters and try as the romney campaign did to play down expectation for tuesday night's caucuses in colorado and minnesota and the faux primary in missouri p.. the gop base does not like mitt romney very much. we know three-judge panel of the ninth circuit court of appeals voted 2-1 krachlted's prop 8 took away the right to their right to gay and lesbian marriage was unconstitutional. rick santorum claimed the obama

administration is, quote, appointing justices of a family that gets in the way of controlling your life. republicans making the convoluted argument that allowing some people to love and marry each other. we also know now the name of rick santorum's personal multimillion air sponsor. we know he joined santorum on stage last tuesday after his victories that night and we know the spector of the super rich placing bets on their pet politicians and racing them down the tract is a reality in the free for all environment. after leading the knicks to four consecutive victories with show stopping performances and scoring unprecedented nba record 89 points in his first three

starts, we now know that undrafted harvard educated second-year new york knicks point guard jeremy lin is the real deal. we know the only asian american player in the league manages to simultaneously conserve and confound. if he keeps doing things like this. >> the open floor. spinning. puts it up and banks it in! sensational play for jeremy lin! >> he will continue to be the toast of the town. we also know now that syrian president bashar al assad clearly never watched space balls. >> oh, wait, wait! i'll tell! i'll tell! >> i knew it would work! all right. give it to me! >> the combination is 1. >> 1. >> 1. >> 2. >> 2. >> 2. >> 3. >> 3. >> 3.

>> 4. >> 4. >> 4. >> 5. >> 5. >> 5. >> so the combination is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. >> that's the stupidest combination i ever heard in my life! it's the kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage! >> we know the activist anonymous broke the code last sunday night and leaked hundreds of e-mails from and we now know al assad's office used the password 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 on several of its accounts. we know thanks to bob davidson that a yuma county superior court judge denied this lady from a seat in the house. she is a u.s. citizen. we know the arizona supreme court upheld the decision and, no, we won't be hearing the right denouncing these activist

judges any time soon. finally, this is important. thanks to england's daily mail newspaper that my alter ego is chris hanes, gop strategist and revealed in clint eastwood's chrysler advertisement, quote. we know why i have a weekend show so i could run my gop consulting business on the weekdays. you can thank me for the sweater vest. what do my guests know now when the week began? we will find out after this. that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. but we couldn't simply repeat history. we had to create it. introducing the 2013 lexus gs,

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♪ i wanted to say for the record i had tremendous restraint is not making this show into two hours on the jeremy lin playing for the new

york knicks. john, what do you know now? >> i went to parties and hear i'm supposed to be afraid of these retrograde kind of republicans voices and i don't get it because you hear people shouting doesn't mean they are winning the argument. and i think of some of the more bizarre statements from people like rick santorum or newt gingrich or what have you as people in cartoons with tiny voices. it seems we are in an intermediate state and just one generation we are in a different america and the people falling behind will shout ever more loudly but i like where the country is going at this point and i like what we are seeing in this election. >> really it's a novel observation because you don't hear it a lot and glad to hear it. >> i know more about the senses of humor about a lot of state senators. i think last week, you talked about the virginia state senator

who talking about pregnant women getting an examination. she proposed an rectal examination. this week in oklahoma in response to a measure, state senator johnston quote any action a man -- taking a humus approach to making her point how far these measures are going. i think it's very, you know, that was -- the language was -- >> vote counsel, i imagidown, i >> i think it's very interesting to see especially a couple of women state legislators reacting to humor to some of these issues. >> what do you know now? >> i never knew how to negotiate fashion week and black history month. >> weird. >> right?

>> preach. >> this is what you do. you buy black cool. it's a book edited by rebecca walker. i have an essay about it in the politics of style along with some other really great writers. and i also didn't know that i am going to be a conversation with melissa harris perry, talking about her very show here and her book at brooklyn museum on the 16th. >> awesome. melissa harris perry is a wonderful colleague and starting her new show next week after us. finally, richard, what do you know now you didn't know at the beginning of the week? >> we know i'm just a little bit of american pride from jeremy lin. beyond that seriously a year after the fukushima nuclear disaster, the first nuclear power plant is going to be built and loans guaranteeing this was provided by the department of energy and that ten activist

groups are going to court to stop the building of these n nuclear plants. >> richard kim, thanks so much. my thanks to john and rebecca and michaela and richard for joining us this morning. richard kim is the executive editor of thenation.com." thank you for joining us today. coming up next is weekends with alex witt. join us tomorrow when i will have john sarbanes and jared bernstein as guests. thank you for getting up.

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