due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. >> america's prisons. dangerous. often deadly. there are 2 million people doing time every day. it's a battle to survive and to maintain order. >> down on your feet, down. >> pendleton juvenile is the last stop in indiana for young offenders who committed serious crimes. we spent months inside where the staff is determined to rehabilitate impulsive teens who are often angry and violent. this is "lockup: pendleton juvenile, extended stay." on any given day, inside the

razor wire fences of pendleton juvenile correctional facility, anything can happen. >> stop! stop! turn around. >> during our six months inside, we learned some days can be more chaotic than most. >> control to all units and shift supervisors. >> caught him signal 2000, which is an attempted escape. going to run for it. told the sergeant he was going to run and took off out of the unit. >> i think by 7:30 in the morning, we had a signal jam meaning officer needs assistance. we've had two signal 2000s, which are escaped.

>> turn around. turn around. get on your knees. get on your knees. put your hands behind your head. stay like that until we exit the cell. >> it was a half hearted attempt. he gave them a little struggle and they brought him here. he acts relieved now that he is here. as a matter of fact, i believe it's his second time trying to escape in the last two weeks because he's having such a problem getting acclimated with the other offenders out there. >> i already got in trouble with the board. i was just mad, so i just -- the officers here. the officers, they be getting on my nerves. i guess i got fed up. i don't listen to them no more. >> did you have anger before you came here and got locked up?

>> yes. family problems and all. there's anger right there. so -- i ain't going nowhere. >> yesterday, we had about eight slots that weren't full. since last night, about 9:30 when we brought another young offender in here, it went full tilt. we went from 17 to 24. we are now full. it's just one of those days, when it rains, we don't have enough buckets. >> just two cell doors down from this teenage flight risk is 18-year-old kenneth howell. >> trying to find some way of getting out. >> howell made his first move to scale the pendleton fences at the crack of dawn. >> almost made it over that time. it wouldn't have been my first time.

i cut myself before. i'm used to so much pain from early on in my childhood, it's just a small scratch compared. i can have a gouge from here down to here. i'll just look at it like wow. >> as one of the largest maximum security juvenile prisons in the country, pendleton are responsible for educating and rehabilitating teenage gang members, sex offenders, and juveniles with mental health issues for the indiana department of corrections. >> in our jurisdiction, in our state, the department of corrections became a solution to a very aggressive, difficult child to handle. truly those kids that are seen as public threats. >> i spent from age 10 to 12 in state hospitals for mental problems.

i got locked up at age 13. from there, i messed up by getting in a fight at school while i was at placement. it got me terminated from there. threatened my case worker. they kicked me out for that, and now i'm here. been here for the past three years. >> the number one issue offenders approach me on on a daily basis has to do with placements. it could be to do with their history and behavior, they have been in community placements before and kicked out. it's frustrating from my perspective. >> they can't find a placement for you? >> my mental history from the past, no placement will accept me now. >> finding placements for offenders isn't the only

challenge staff members face. director mia black has to deal with a different set of issues in "d" complex. >> all of the offenders in the unit are low functioning through education or behavior. a lot of the kids are so used to beating up someone or cussing out someone to prove a point instead of simply talking and discussing their issues. they were raised to be that way. i try to get them to get into that mind set. >> most of the teens who arrive at pendleton bring a mindset of their own. 18-year-old edgar muniz has been locked up for 14 months. today he found out he won't be promoted to the next level. >> i'm in level one. she know i was in there before. >> i'll let her know you need to

talk to her. >> yeah. >> what's wrong? >> level one. >> don't worry. i'll talk to sawyer and see what he has to say and we'll go from there. okay. stay in here, cool down for a bit. >> okay. >> instead of running from the problems, they need to face them and address them, but in an effective way. >> coming up on "lockup: pendleton juvenile," has that gang member really reformed? >> how do you deal with your gang affiliation when you leave here? >> ignore them and go to school. >> you think that's going to work? >> hopefully. >> did it work last time? [ jane ] here's me. and here's my depression.

before i started taking abilify, i was taking an antidepressant alone. most days i could put on a brave face and muddle through. but other days i still struggled with my depression. i was managing, but it always had a way of creeping up on me. i felt stuck. i just couldn't shake my depression. so i talked to my doctor. he said adding abilify to my antidepressant could help with my depression, and that some people had symptom improvement as early as 1 to 2 weeks. he also told me about a free trial offer from abilify! now i feel more in control of my depression. [ male announcer ] abilify is not for everyone. call your doctor if your depression worsens or if you have unusual changes in behavior, or thoughts of suicide. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens and young adults.

elderly dementia patients taking abilify have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor if you have high fever, stiff muscles and confusion to address a possible life-threatening condition. or if you have uncontrollable muscle movements, as these could become permanent. high blood sugar has been reported with abilify and medicines like it. in some cases, extreme high blood sugar can lead to coma or death. other risks include decreases in white blood cells, which can be serious, dizziness upon standing, seizures, trouble swallowing, and impaired judgment or motor skills. depression used to define me, then my doctor added abilify to my antidepressant. now, i feel better. [ male announcer ] if you're still struggling with depression talk to your doctor to see if the option of adding abilify is right for you. and be sure to ask about the free trial offer.

while some days inside pendleton juvenile can be endless drama for inmates and staff, today brings tension of a different kind. for 18-year-old andrew huff and abel, review hearings to determine if they will be released from prison. >> i got an arson, breaking and entering, and resisting arrest, and i got probation violation for threatening to kill three girls. >> i'm nervous because this determines whether i go home or not. then again, i'm confident i'm going to go home because i haven't been in trouble in a long time. i got future plans to go to college and play football. i got my ged, so hopefully i'll make it. >> the review committee is an opportunity for the offender to come before a panel, like a parole board, and convince us as a board that he's changed and made a difference and he

deserves an opportunity for release. >> before getting locked up he was in a gang known for aligning themselves with the mexican mafia. >> it was kind of fun to me because back in the day, i loved violence when i was little. i never had a father, so that's probably where i didn't have enough discipline. i love fighting. that's just me. >> gangs weren't a problem for andrew huff. anger was. >> it's like when you're building up stress, it's like a bomb exploding. as soon as somebody gets you to a point, you explode. i fall down in tears and realize what you done was wrong. >> we don't ever want to send somebody back into the community that we don't feel can be successful. that's the ultimate goal. sometimes we're successful, and other times we just fail.

>> andrew, are you ready? >> yeah. >> you're nervous? >> why don't you go ahead and talk to us about why you're in prison. >> i'm here for arson, breaking and entering, theft, and resisting arrest and probation violation. >> relax, okay? >> what we're doing here today is all about you. you said that you have anger issues that boil up inside of you. and that's what happened. that's what happened in the community. that's why you set a fire. that's why you threatened those girls. you need to convince us that you have got a handle on that and you understand what it is that boils up inside of you and causes you to want to be so angry you might hurt somebody. look at us, think about it, and remember that we have confidence that you have got the answer.

>> i let anger build up inside me so much before i let it out. stress, plus lately i've been trying to go home, and i've been getting frustrated ever since. i think about my family. my mom wants me home. my nieces and nephew need me. i want to help them. i have little brothers and sisters aiming for it. >> while his marathon interview continues, abel watches from his holding cell just steps away. his turn is just around the corner. >> i just want them to know, i need to go home and take care of my family, my little brother and

i want to go to college and play football. hopefully that will encourage them to release me. >> it's something we all take quite seriously, and we hope we have done everything we can to influence that particular juvenile in a positive direction so he can return back to the family and the community and make a positive difference. that's essentially what everybody is here for. >> i do have one question. what changed in november? up until november, you got two, three, four conduct reports every month, every month, just like clockwork. what changed? >> the fact that i was tired of being here. i have grown up. i said it's time to go. my thinking, the way i did things, that's what changed.

i did a lot more thinking after i did all that and i finally came up with a solution. >> he probably came up with the right solution. now your problem is going to be you have to think before you act. >> yes, sir. >> while the review committee considers his release from pendleton, in the segregation unit, 18-year-old inmate marcus branch is facing the possibility of spending several more years behind bars. >> i'll probably end up going to court from here. they said i could face 20 years in prison for what i did. what happened was, this staff member was kind of big and stuff like that. he always talked like crazy to me. i forget what he said, but basically, i was like, you know, [ bleep ] your family.

he said [ bleep ] your family. i don't know, i always wanted to fight him. but, i got like swinging on him and stuff. i thought he was going to swing back, but he didn't. i kept on swinging on him. >> most of the offenders here are very loud. put themselves out there and they try to act really rough and tough and try to sound it. he's really quiet and can snap in a moment. >> hit the ground. i was thinking i'll show him mercy. so i left him alone. >> we talked about that with the staff a lot. i call it a kind of total awareness thing that they have to constantly pay attention to everything that's going on at every given moment, because you just never know where those outbursts are going to come from. >> i'm going to get you out in just a minute. >> while marcus branch sits in seg, calculating his fate,

across the compound the future of abel lies in the hands of the review committee. >> i'm not afraid of no question. i'm just afraid of them saying no, but i don't know. i'm going to make it, i know i'll make it. >> you ready? >> yes, sir. >> why are you here? >> violation of parole. i violated -- i had a pistol while i was on parole. >> how long were you out when that happened? >> about a month. >> talk to me about your std ties. >> well, i was tagging stuff up like my coats and my shoes, my shower shoes, and a blue chair in gp. i had tagged it up, so i got wrote up for it and they sent me over here for it. >> by tagging it up, you were destroying the property by writing gang graffiti on it? >> what gang are you affiliated with?

how do you deal with your gang affiliation once you leave here? >> i'm going to ignore them and go to school. >> you think ignoring them is going to work? >> hopefully. >> did it work last time? >> no, last time, i didn't have future plans. i got out, i didn't have my ged. i didn't have no future plans. now i do. i got an education. i got my ged. i'm going to go to college and play football. >> what was your intent with the gun? why did you have it? >> protection. >> from? >> other gang members. >> let me ask you this -- if i sent one of my sergeants to shake your room down right now and your release was dependent on whether or not there was stg

material in your room, are you leaving or not? >> coming up on "lockup, pendleton juvenile." >> you were just talking about your victims, you were smiling. why were you smiling? >> tension-filled hours for andrew and abel. there's no guarantee either will go home. later, we find out what happened to the officer marcus branch attacked. they say, "well, if you want a firm bed you can lie on one of those, if you want a soft bed you can lie on one of those." we provide the exact individualization that your body needs. wow. that feels really good. it's about support where you find it most comfortable. at the ultimate sleep number event, queen mattresses now start at just $599. and save an astonishing 50% on the final closeout of our innovative limited edition bed. only at the sleep number store.

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it takes a unique set of skills to work with the teen offenders inside pendleton juvenile. >> keys. >> "d" complex presents some of the prison's biggest challenges for program director mia black. >> is it frustrating? absolutely. is it rewarding? absolutely. i've had offenders that you want to shake and say snap out of it, grow up, you need to go home, and they just don't grasp it.

i have had a lot of success stories. so although the rewards can be few and far between, when you see them, it gives you a purpose to be here. what's up you guys? >> it's up to mia to dissect the issues between edgar muniz's meltdown. he's had trouble passing the five levels for release. earlier in the day, he was told he was back to level one. >> i'm on level one. >> don't cry. don't cry. don't cry. why are you crying? >> cause i talked to my mom and sawyer, he told my mom i was going to get out probably in four weeks.

>> don't cry. don't cry. hold on. i'm going to make my best effort to get kids to trust me and believe that you are here for them. >> i haven't seen my mom for one year and two months. i write letters to my mom. i want to see my mom. >> they are so used to nobody caring. i want to show them that i care, i want to be there for you. here is what we are going to do. >> my family is in mexico. i got in america only my mom, my sister, and my grandpa and me. i was in level three. she told me i was going to make level four. i was being good. she told my mom i'm in level four. he don't really care about what he said. >> he cares. he cares.

he cares because nobody knows you guys like mr. sawyer. he's here with you guys all day every day in those units. let me see what he has to say and we'll go from there. okay? stay in here, cool out for a little bit, but don't worry. all right. >> you're saying he's a level two and he's thinking -- >> he is now for sure. >> ewe hit -- unit reports were good. what did you do, demote him or continue him? >> mia and the counselor find a solution for edgar. they compromise and place him on level three. back in his unit, he seems satisfied with the outcome. >> you have to believe that you are making a change.

you may not see it today, you may not see it tomorrow, but somewhere along the line you have made a change or a difference in somebody's life. >> even when a teen is close to getting out of pendleton, there's rarely lack of drama inside the walls. 18-year-old andrew huff has been locked up 14 months. today, he is facing one of the biggest days of his life. his release interview. >> what's different with you, personally, that's going to keep you focused and keep you from getting angry when you are out of this environment? >> i learned to talk to people. once my anger comes up, i have to go to time out or walk away from that, talk to them in person or talk to somebody else.

>> who have you hurt through all of this? >> my mother, my little sister. my nieces and nephews. >> that's it? was it an apartment that you burned down? >> the arson, yeah. >> what about the people impacted by that? coming up -- will andrew huff convince the review committee he's realized the error of his ways? and the pressure is on for abel villegas. >> are you remorseful for the things that you did? >> and -- >> they say you have a broken jaw and a broken eye socket. >> a conversation with the victim of marcus branch's attack. [ woman ] we take it a day at a time.

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i'm page hopkins, here's what's happening. a double dose of good news for mitt romney tonight. just about an hour ago, maine

gop officials announced he's won the state's caucus, just edging out ron paul. rick santorum and newt gingrich, who did not campaign in maine, finished behind. short time before that, mitt romney was declared the winner of the cpac straw poll of conservative activists. beating out rick santorum, followed by newt gingrich and ron paul. more news later, now let's go back to "lockup: extended stay." >> inmates in pendleton juvenile correction facility participate in a five-step program of rehabilitation. then they have to prove to the committee they have ready to be released. today, the burden falls on andrew huff. >> was it an apartment you burned down? >> in the arson, yes. >> what about all the people that were impacted by that?

>> it was an apartment. >> it was an abandoned building? what about the place that you burglarized? how do you think it made him feel for you to go in and burglarize his place of business? >> probably upset him. and probably made him mad. >> what about the three people you threatened to hurt? kill, was it? who were they? >> one was my ex, one was my brother's ex, and one was my cousin's ex. >> do you think they were impacted by that at all? >> i don't know. i know one of them was. >> how were they impacted? >> upset, scared, worried. >> how do you feel about that?

>> i feel bad for what i done. but, i know i can't change it, so -- but, i think that it would help to apologize to them and make things right with them. make them not be scared of me no more. >> it's up to you to make a difference. you need to recognize the fact that you victimized people and the things you have done hurt people, and you need to make some reparations for that. okay? >> yes, sir. >> andrew, right now, i am very proud of you. do you know why? because you have been honest with us. because you have spoken from the heart, and because there's no doubt in my mind that you mean what you are saying right now. the real key for your future and those people you really care

about is whether or not you can keep that honesty and sincerity right out in front of you as you walk out this door. >> before i got here, when i was locked up before, i made a plan before i was released that i was going to try to help others. i got locked up and realized i didn't do much of anything. i made things worse. that's what i want to continue to do when i go home. >> okay. at this time we'll ask for a vote of the committee on the recommendation of promotion of andrew to a release date. >> i agree. >> i support also. >> i do, too. >> i agree. >> i support it. >> congratulations, you're promoted to release. >> don't forget everything you learned. >> you're free now. >> thank you.

i'm a little shocked. i know it could have gotten denied. i'm impressed. >> andrew huff is lucky. he's on his way home. but cell mate abel might not be so fortunate. >> good that he made it. he needs to go home. we all do. >> while andrew huff celebrates his victory, many at pendleton are still looking down a long road to release. >> get your hands back. listen to what i'm telling you. get your hands back. >> offender marcus branch may end up in adult prison for his violent attack on an officer. >> i always wanted to fight him. i got to like swinging on him and stuff. i thought he was going to swing back, but he didn't. so i kept on swinging on him. then, he hit the ground and i was thinking about his face, then i said no, i'll show him mercy.

so, i left him alone. >> how did you feel after? >> i felt bad because he didn't swing back. so i kind of felt bad for beating him up, yeah. >> do you know what happened to him? >> they say he got a broken jaw and a broken eye socket. they say i could face 6 to 20 years in prison for what i did. i'm a little nervous to go to prison. but, like, if i have to do it, that's something i have to deal with. >> the reality is funny for him. i don't think he understands everything he does. he's one you really, really have to worry about. >> which led us to think about the officer branch attacked, the one branch said was a tough guy. as it turned out, marcus branch beat up a woman. >> i'm not sure exactly what all happened. it was time for dining hall.

i informed the kids it's dime for dining hall. get your coats and shoes on. walked up to shut the tv off. one of the inmates blind-sided me, hit me in the face. next thing i know, i'm picking myself up off the floor about five feet away. >> the spontaneity of incidents like that, and they tend to come from nowhere. i think it goes back to the core of the person and they have no hope. they truly believe with the soul of every fiber of their being is that their future is to end up in an adult facility. >> the average length of stay is one year for teens inside the walls of pendleton juvenile correctional facility. abel has been here for ten months. today is his shot to convince the release committee he's ready to go home. >> we review their packet, and we know that they're essentially

eligible to come to the release committee for review, but we don't ever talk about it in advance. you had how many counts of battery? >> four. >> what were the batteries about? >> racism. >> racism? tell me what that means. >> when i was going to school, when i just came up here, there were a bunch of kids calling me names, so back in the day, i would react to any stupid stuff. somebody call me a name, i would react and start fighting right away. >> that's how i mostly got all my batteries from, people calling me names. >> was any of that gang related? >> no, sir. >> talk to me about your victims. >> victims? they were rivalry gang members, so we don't get along with them

for certain reasons. >> you just told me a few minutes ago that those were not gang related. >> what victims are you talking about? >> any. >> any? well come gang members and some were racist. >> probably the number one thing i'm looking for is sincerity, that they truly have reflected on what they have done and harm they cased to victims, to the community. >> when you were just talking about your victims, you were smiling. why were you smiling? >> cause, i don't know if i -- i didn't get the question. like victims? i didn't know what victims he was talking about. >> do you know what the word victim is? do you know what we're talking about? the people that you've hurt. okay? so, do you think about that?

are you remorseful for the things you did? >> no. >> do you feel bad for what you did? >> no, because of what they were doing to me. they were hurting me, so i felt that i had to to hurt them, too. >> are you going to continue with your gang involvement once you leave the facility? >> no, ma'am. >> i don't believe that. i don't believe that you can walk out these doors and not have any more ties with your gang. i don't even believe that you don't want to have contact with your gang. >> let me ask you this, if i sent one of my sergeants to shake your room down right now and your release was dependent on whether there was stg material in your room, are you leaving or not? >> yes, sir. i had a folder that had stg material, but i marked it off with a marker. other than that i don't have --

>> they told you to do it? you didn't choose to do it? >> why don't you have a seat for me. >> abel will have to sweat out the decision of the review committee, waiting in a holding cell. coming up, on pendleton juvenile. >> why? what was going on in his head when he did it? >> judgment day for abel. >> i guarantee you he will walk out of this facility and the first thing he's going to do is go back to meet up with his gang buddies. [ jane ] here's me. and here's my depression.

before i started taking abilify, i was taking an antidepressant alone. most days i could put on a brave face and muddle through. but other days i still struggled with my depression. i was managing, but it always had a way of creeping up on me. i felt stuck. i just couldn't shake my depression. so i talked to my doctor. he said adding abilify to my antidepressant could help with my depression, and that some people had symptom improvement as early as 1 to 2 weeks. he also told me about a free trial offer from abilify! now i feel more in control of my depression. [ male announcer ] abilify is not for everyone. call your doctor if your depression worsens or if you have unusual changes in behavior, or thoughts of suicide. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens and young adults. elderly dementia patients taking abilify have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor if you have high fever, stiff muscles and confusion to address a possible life-threatening condition. or if you have uncontrollable muscle movements,

as these could become permanent. high blood sugar has been reported with abilify and medicines like it. in some cases, extreme high blood sugar can lead to coma or death. other risks include decreases in white blood cells, which can be serious, dizziness upon standing, seizures, trouble swallowing, and impaired judgment or motor skills. depression used to define me, then my doctor added abilify to my antidepressant. now, i feel better. [ male announcer ] if you're still struggling with depression talk to your doctor to see if the option of adding abilify is right for you. and be sure to ask about the free trial offer. ask me.option of adding abilify is right for you. [ male announcer ] even if you think you can live with your old mattress... ask me how i've never slept better. [ male announcer ] ...why not talk to one of the 6 million people who've switched to the most highly recommended bed in america? it's not a sealy, a simmons, or a serta. ask me about my tempur-pedic. ask me how i can finally sleep all night. ask me how great my back feels every morning. [ male announcer ] did you know there's a tempur-pedic for everybody? tempur-pedic beds now come in soft, firm,

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released from pendleton. >> the number one thing i'm looking for is sincerity. >> while staff debate if he's ready for life on the outside, his counselor weighs in before the final decision is made. >> i've talked to him quite extensively for the last couple days, he seemed fine to me. we talked about changing behavior because there will be a lot of temptation when he's released. >> i'm kind of mad because i don't think i'm going to make it because they said i'm not ready to go home. >> he's not remorseful. he doesn't understand that concept whatsoever. i don't believe for a second that he is done with the gang. i don't believe that for any -- with any fiber of my being. i guarantee, he will walk out of this facility and the first

thing he's going to do is go back and meet up with his gang buddies, guaranteed. >> i was just being honest. every time i answered, i was just being honest. >> my biggest concern is the lack of remorse for victims. he refused to advance him anywhere until he makes headway in that regard. >> yeah. >> okay. at this point, we are going to send you back and get you to refocus on some other issues, primarily victim empathy, victim impact programming. i said it before and i'll say it again, i don't believe for a second you had any commitment to

not being involved in your gang anymore. because of that, my decision is no, you're not going to be advanced at this point in time, and you've got some work to do. >> do you have any questions? >> okay? okay. >> i'll walk him back. >> he definitely has no concern whatsoever about any of his victims. it was clear, just through his interactions and talking with him there and making him discuss his gang related ties and things like that, he is a clear example of the type of juveniles and kids and offenders that we struggle with every day.

>> i know you're upset. okay. we're going to help you. we'll bring in a mentor and work together and sit down, one-on-one, okay? we'll talk more when we get back okay? >> it's a chance we take, too. some kids are ready to go and, you know, we have to make that determination that they are ready or not ready. >> today? >> he wasn't ready. >> as abel looks at least another month behind bars, marcus branch wonders if beating up officer linda smock will get him waived to adult court. >> okay, i am a little nervous to go to prison, but, if i had to do it, then that's something

i have to deal with. >> there was no indication it was coming. it was an explosion of violence that came from nowhere. it's typical with a juvenile facility. >> he just snapped. it's typical with a juvenile facility. >> he just snapped. rumor had it he was mad at another kid, and i was in the way. he hit the side of my face. next thing i know, i'm on the floor. the kids pulled him off me. the staff got there to help lock everybody down. i went to the e.r. ended up with the white part of my right eye cut and my jaw was sprung. and he actually walked up to the sergeant when he walked in the unit and put his hands behind him and said, "i did it. i don't know why i did it, but i did it." >> despite the aggressive outbursts common with juveniles, superintendent mike dempsey is still required to educate and rehabilitate all teens behind bars.

in a sweeping chang at pendleton, dempsey got rid of long term seg in favor of a short-term segregation policy. >> in some cases, you have to segregate an offender in the best interests of everybody else, in order to keep people safe and keep people from getting hurt. you have to find a balance between keeping people safe, yet also finding a way to offer treatment programs that will make a difference to turn that particular kid around. what are the options out there? what new ideas and creative programming can we come up with? you have to think outside the box and take risks, unfortunately. >> coming up, abel villegas struggles to come to grips with more time behind bars. >> it makes you miss your family a lot. you don't have that much freedom in here. you have people telling when you to eat, when to go to the restroom, when to sleep. it is not right. it is not nice.wow. that feels .

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abel villegas came face to face with superintendent mike dempsey and the pendleton release committee to prove he was ready to go home. >> you need to be truly committed to do away with those gang affiliations that you have. i don't believe that you're anywhere near that. >> unfortunately for him, though, they weren't convinced. >> when it comes to looking at harm you caused to others and your victims, it seriously concerns me. >> it's like parole board for juveniles, and so it's a high stakes process where the juvenile offender has to convince the board that they are ready to go back into society, that they've completed their program and that they've learned

something that they can use when they leave. >> you have absolutely no empathy in regards to them that i can detect. even in the most minute trace, there isn't any. >> and as you saw, as we went through that, there were some concerns. >> back in his unit villegas contemplates another month at pendleton. >> it makes you miss your family a lot and you just -- you don't have that much freedom in here. you always -- you have people telling you when to eat, when to go to the rest room, when to sleep. just -- it's not right. it's not nice. >> across the compound in segregation, marcus branch's future lies in the hands of a county prosecutor.

>> for the most part, all of them are good kids. they've got their problems but for the most part i think that they're all good kids. only thing i can say is watch who is behind you. >> on the day he snapped, branch was only two weeks away from being released. we tried to find out why he would risk everything when freedom was so close. >> like, i kind of blame it on the neighborhood i was raised in. i can't really blame it on my family. i have to say where i'm from, the neighborhood. >> so if somebody let you out of here, put you in a great neighborhood and big house, gave you a job, do you think that would keep you on the straight and narrow? if it was all handed to you tomorrow, could you stay on the straight and narrow? >> it would be hard because i'm just so used to doing the same things i did. come back here and, like, i don't know. it would be hard. i don't think i could.

>> it's been four weeks since abel villegas got the bad news he wasn't being released from pendleton. since then he's been spending time in his cell pod working with a mentor and getting one-on-one counseling. >> i was born on my grandma's birthday. so i'm grandma's boy. so i've lived with her most of my life. i'll go back out, help her out. just do good. stop giving her problems and stuff. >> the hard work has paid off. later today he'll finally see freedom and be released to his grandparents. >> for every juvenile delinquent that you see in the newspapers

who's done some horrendous thing, there are ten more who learn from the system and went back out to be good adults as they grow up. we see those stories and it warms your heart and you can't not want to do this because you know that you've had something to play in that.

due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you've never seen, "lockup: raw." >> i get mad sometimes, man. i get angry. >> the emotional toll here is like water torture. every day it's like a drip, drip, drip. >> always somebody bugging out, always somebody causing trouble in the cell house. >> i'm not an angel. i can tell you that. >> open this [ bleep ]! >> it really wears on you after a while. you got to get away from it. >> go [ bleep ]!

i really like birds. they're pretty neat. >> "lockup" crews have met hundreds of inmates facing long-term sentences. for some like dale veers at iowa state penitentiary, that means the chance to pick up a new skill or two. >> you start out with a block. then cut it down. and then i keep grinding and shaping it until i get it where it's supposed to be. >> a life sentence for kidnapping has given viers a chance to master bird carving. >> i kept the very first bird i ever carved because i just knew that i would get better. that is the first one i carved. that's my duck head. duck's getting a little bit better. i have another bird here.

they get better. >> when we met him, viers was hard at work on his most elaborate piece yet. >> a robin pulling a worm out of the ground. >> he even had a live model to work with. >> i've got a worm in here. see? he's alive. i've had him for three weeks. so i can get the color and everything right when i make it. >> viers is hardly alone when it comes to finding creative ways to kill time. at first our crew thought indiana state prison inmate donte kidd's stack of toilet paper with a mirror on it was abstract art. but he had a far more practical reason for pushing his corridor into the hall outside. >> for those who don't have tvs, they try to watch it on the range, catch the reflection of another individual's tv in the next cell and sit back and watch some tv. >> kidd is serving time for drug

sales, dreamt up his creation when his own tv stopped working. >> i call it a port-a-tv stand. port-a-potty, port-a-stand. just a little jailhouse ingenuity. not as good as high def. >> while the quality of kidd's television viewing might be compromised, other inmates lose the privilege altogether for causing trouble. >> i don't have a tv. they took all my privileges for spitting on that dude. so it's like i don't know, probably take my privileges and, like, good time, that don't matter here. there ain't no sunshine here, man. >> when we met edwin smith, he had been at colorado state penitentiary for less than a month, just starting a 30-year sentence for cutting a man's throat in a bar fight. he lost his television privileges for spitting on an officer during intake and things were about to go even further downhill. >> mentally, you have to take it [ bleep ]. you can't really fight with someone.

>> the night before our interview with him, smith had received a lesson in supermax security when he chose to holed up in his cell. >> here we're to perform a cell extraction on inmate smith, edwin. the reason for the extraction is the inmate refused to come out for a cell search. >> smith's actions triggered colorado's emergency response team. one of their primary functions is to extract uncooperative inmates from their cells. >> when our crews follow a cell extraction, it's one of the most intense moments on "lockup." it's when an inmate refuses to cuff up or come out of the cell or is doing damage to the cell and the special response team is called in. >> if you refuse to cuff up, we will introduce oc gas in your cell. >> what's that? >> you'll find out. it's a chemical agent. >> it's almost like watching a car chase on tv. you know the inmate's not going to win. the officers have the equipment, pepper spray, stun shields, handcuffs, the manpower. >> one last chance to cuff up.

inmate refuses, introduce gas. >> ow! whoo! >> the gas quickly convinces smith to cooperate with correctional staff. >> strip down to your boxers. take your shirt off. turn around. when we open this door, i want you to drop straight down to your knees, do you understand me? >> yes. >> because of the spitting incident when he first arrived, officers cover smith's head with a spit net. >> we're going to put a net over your head. don't pull away from us. >> i can't breathe. it's been hell, man. they threw gas on me and degraded me, treated me like an animal. i can't breathe. ow! >> as long as you're compliant, you'll get a decontamination shower. >> the more you rub the more it's going to burn. >> oh, really?

now you tell me. >> as far as cell extractions go, smith's was fairly routine. it was a different story at the spring creek correctional center in alaska. >> [ bleep ] you. >> prisoner demonstrated aggressive agitated behavior by using abusive language and continually banging on his cell walls causing injury to his hands and wrists. >> when spring creek's extraction team was called to remove steven blevins from his cell, he was in a state of rage and had been pounding the walls with his bare fists for over an hour. >> [ bleep ] qom on, come on, come on. >> but when we first met blevins, he was in a much calmer state as he told us how mental illness led to murder. >> i fell in june of '93,

psychotic delusion, out on a fishing boat. i attributed it to working too much, too long, too hard. i'm paige hopkins. sad breaking news coming to us tonight reported by the associated press, singer whitney houston is dead. again this is according to the associated press, whitney houston was 48 years old, a reigning pop star, we are waiting to find out the cause of her death. she was at her peak in the '80s and '90s. she had a very famous, stormy marriage to another singer, bobby brown, that produced a daughter that you see right there. we're trying to found out again the cause of death. she has had a remarkable, remarkable career. she was actually discovered at 19 by clive davis of arita records, comes from a storied musical family, her mother is the gospel singer sissy houston

and famous aunt dionne warwick. breaking news out of the associated press, very sad news for the entertainment industry on this weekend of the grammys. we get word that whitney houston, age 48 years old, has died. again we're trying to find out the cause of death. you may be aware she's had a very, very long bat well drugs and alcohol, that was very public. we're looking right now at footage of her actually going to court. she faced many different charges throughout her career, stood by her husband, bobby brown, who also had a very, very public bat well drugs and alcohol, that's actually her ex-husband there, looking at video of them when they were in israel. during their marriage they were a very public marriage, even had a reality show at one point chronicling their ups and downs. she reemerged with a new album a couple years ago, divorced bobby brown and making a comeback but many critics said her voice seemed different, may have been because of years of drug use,

not clear. very, very sad news. she was beautiful, beautiful singer, on the phone right now we have courtney hazelett, entertainment reporter on the phone. courtney, are you getting confirmation of her death? >> you know the ap has confirmation via one of her publicists. she has a large management team. we haven't heard from everybody absolutely yet. i'm just learning about this at the same time as we all are. this comes as a huge shock obviously. whitney has had her ups and downs like you mentioned a few moments ago. nobody saw this coming. her management team was in talks for her to do more performances this year so it wasn't like she was crawling away from the spotlight in any way. the early stages of her comeback was still, were still in the works. she was supposed to do live performances later on in this calendar year and definitely this is not something that anybody anticipated.

>> and as recent as a few days ago it was floated she might be one of the judges on "american idol," that was a possibility for her? >> all of the big splashy rolls were bandied about as comeback rolls for whitney houston. she's beloved by her fans, one of those instances where you really cringed every time you heard a bad story about her. this is the ugly side of celebrity here. you hear some stories about celebrities falling by the wayside and people say yeah they had that coming. with whitney houston she had such an amazing voice and presence and people really cherished what she was offering up to the world for so long. nobody liked seeing her stumble as she did in recent years. >> right. >> so people really wanted her to come back and seeing her as a judge on one of these shows would have been inspirational to a lot of people especially young artists who look up to her. >> courtney, what can you tell us about her drug use and

alcohol use? her drug use was very public with her marriage to bobby brown. two people seemingly using some sort of substance and then she apparently was cleaned up, she came out with that new album a couple years ago and then what did you hear about her use in the recent last year, two years? >> you know, in recent years any time she would have any sort of difficulty, people would first say okay, she's doing drugs again or she's abuses alcohol again, something along those lines and a lot of times representation would say it's exhaustion or something along those lines, the exhaustion line that we hear so often with celebrities whether it's true or not or a coverup or what might be going on. this woman had not battled all of her demons and we've heard from addiction experts every time there's a sad story along the lines, let's be clear, we don't know what the cause of death is at this point. >> no, we don't. >> any time you hear about the stories addiction is something these people deal with lifelong and with whitney houston her

addictions were not something that were 100% behind her. according to anybody who knew her well. >> and according to people who knew her well she grew up in this family of gospel singers out of newark, new jersey, and really had a very sheltered upbringing, very strict, sheltered upbringing and wasn't until she became quite famous and dating famous people and of course marrying bobby brown that it was even obvious she had any drug issues. is that true? >> you know this isn't something that's unique to whitney houston of course. hollywood, show business, if you will in general doesn't have to be the corner of hollywood per se but whatever aspect of show business you're ensconced in, this sort of lifestyle is something that tends to rear its head quite often sadly enough. whitney certainly wasn't immune. >> no, she was not. we should mention also they have a daughter, bobby christina. do you know how old she is? >> off the top of my head i

don't, i believe she's a teenager or nearing her 20s. they do share a young daughter and she, too, has had to deal with the spotlight. we love to watch reality shows and that's why we talk about "jersey shore" all the time, the fun train wreck that it is and there's the flip-side and you can point to the reality focus put on bobby brown and whitney houston, i'm not sure what good that did for these people. >> definitely. as you pointed out she was someone who everybody was rooting for when she was making her comeback. she had a unique voice, more outstanding than a lot of her peers breaking through in the '80s and '90s. >> beyond unique. we were inundated with the singing competition shows, some of them are better than others, at this exact moment "the voice" is airing on nbc and "american idol" and all these competition shows so now more than ever when you start to see all these people who we think might be talented and how they really stack up, it is hard, hard, hard to find people with the type of

just pure voice that whitney houston has, raw talent, like you said. this isn't a kid who was a showbiz kid. this wasn't someone groomed for this from the time they could walk or the time they could make any sort of sound with their choice up until adulthood. this was the real deal. that was whitney houston, a person given a gift and she could sing, had the pipes and it was something she was born with and that we can say that was so unique. >> and as obvious to everyone, she was extraordinarily beautiful and was working as a model when she started her singing career. what have you heard about her relationship with bobby brown in the recent years while they've been divorced. was this an amicable divorce? what was their relationship? >> for as much as their marriage was chronicled through that reality show, i have to be honest, they kind of fell off the radar with me once they were divorced because just they weren't being followed as carefully or we had new people

to follow in the reality realm but they had a tumultuous relationship and that's something that extended just beyond the time they were married but like we hear so often, they share a child and when that's the case, you do the best that you can do, but when you're dealing with two really -- st. >> strong personalities. >> and people struggling with addiction issues it wasn't the best situation for sure. >> it's so tragic as we look at the video of her and reminded what a bright, bright light she really was. do you know in recent years, we never heard of her dating anybody else since she divorced bobby brown. was there anybody in her life or mostly focused on getting well and staying clean. >> she had protective family members who wanted to see her get well and protect her from the spotlight and that sort of thing. you didn't hear about her dating tons of men, definitely, this is not a kardashian level relationship here where, you know, with he chronicle every

single moment of this person's life. kind of once she was out of the reality spotlight, for better, not for worse, we did hear less about her until there would be some huge stumble, until she would either have an issue with addiction again or have a horrific performance. i remember not long ago when we were replaying a concert she did abroad and you know, she did not sound like herself, and that was the kind of thing you played it over and over again and you couldn't believe it was the same woman. >> we want people to know if they're tuning in right now we're getting word from the associated press, whitney houston, a reigning pop star since the '80s is dead at the age of 48. we're waiting to find out more. i'm on the phone with courtney hazlett. courtney, what can you tell us about where she was professionally? do we think she was poised for a big comeback? was she still working with clive davis? what was going on? >> she was definitely well, well, well, well connected with

clive davis, one of the giants in the industry. anybody who is anybody has not worked directly with clive davis has had some connection to him for the most part. was she staged for a comeback, absolutely. this is the kind of thing where it's a chess game, where does she perform that's going to have the best shot for her, when do you do it, that the timing is going to be right in her life and the music peck strum and that sort of thing. these were the discussions that were being had in the background as recently as, you know, basically the other day. this is an ongoing discussion, this is her passion, her career, any interview that she's given said you know what? i'm not gone. i'm coming back and that was what people were focusing on. >> okay, courtney, i'm going to ask you to stay on hold for a moment. we also have reverend joe watkins, he is a political correspondent for msnbc, joining us on the phone. reverend, thank you for joining us. this is sad news.

we understand that you actually traveled with whitney after you left the white house? can you tell us about that? >> yes, actually i of course met her in about 1990, and then i brought her and her family to the white house into the oval office to meet president george herbert walker bush and spent some time with them, a few hours with them before that meeting and became friendly and we worked on a number of projects together and i left the white house to work for whitney houston as one of my clients. >> what was your job, what did you do for her? >> i was consultant and looking for ways to help her make the most of outside sponsorships, to kind of grow her career, and it was a great opportunity for me to work with a superstar like whitney houston and her career was just taking off at that point. she did so incredibly well with the movies. she had some talented people that worked with her, tony chambers and sheldon platt and

jerry liston, and just a great group of folks that worked with her, and i was just honored to be part of that group to work with her. >> may i ask you something, reverend watkins, you referenced her being in movies and of course she was in "the bodyguard" with kevin costner, a huge commercial hit, a huge hit came out of that "i will always love you" a hit done before but when she did it, it went through the moon. what do you think happened professionally to her because she never quite sustained that level as time went on and her marriage to bobby brown wore on. >> well, i don't know exactly. i'm guessing that it might have been the weight of the challenges in her marriage, that may have weighed on her. my wife and i were invited to the wedding and traveled all over the world with her on tour, in europe, and went to asia, all over the united states, and you know, i'm just, my sense of it

is that perhaps the weight of the relationship may have had an impact on it, and of course, she had personal challenges she indicated on national television substance abuse and that may have played some role but a great human being and a great family, and i'm just so very sorry right now for her family. >> she was certainly a superstar. reverend watkins when you travel with someone you tend to get to know them really well. >> yes. >> what was she like behind the scenes without the costumes on, without the cameras rolling? >> she was i think kind of shy. >> no, really? >> yes, it's really funny. i used to talk to her, she had an office in ft. lee, new jersey, and i remember sitting in her dad's office one day and talking with her dad and tony chambers and she walked into the office and she was so shy and i was -- >> hard to imagine. >> i was just chuckling that she

was that way and when we went on tour, we used to play games, all kinds of fun and games. we played pictionary one time. she's a normal loveable funny person, i was on the same team with her and two other persons and with he had a blast. >> what was her family like? >> her mother, sicily houston is wonderful, successful music career, having sung with elvis presley and various others in the '60s and '70s, and continuing to sing on. she has a brother, two brothers, gary houston, who played professional basketball and also has had a singing career and moehl houston, who has worked in the family business and been very successful in that regard, and then of course her sisters-in-law and others. i've gotten to know them all over the years and they've remained friends. >> was there dissension between

them and whitney when whitney married bobby brown and it became obvious there were issues with some sort of substance abuse? >> well, you know, the wedding was a happy affair that took place at her house, at her estate in new jersey at the time, and it was a happy affair. it was very festive, filled with celebrities along with family and friends, and there was no hint of any trouble at this point, but you know, of course the challenges that she's had in her marriage had been very public. >> certainly. reverend watkins i'll ask you to stay on the line. we have toure, an msnbc correspondent with us. toure, what do you think as this news is crossing the wires? >> i am tremendously sad. i am in shock. she was only 48 years young, which is really young to die. i am thinking about, this is by far the greatest voice in modern popular music in terms of just a

sound and an ability for somebody to sing and captivate and stir you. i remember "i will always love you" as being as beautiful as a perfect bride on her wedding day. i mean like it was a song that just sort of blew you away, and i mean this is a once in a generation talent. the woman was a mega star from her first album. if memory serves her album sold multimillions almost right away, so massive star right away. you know, and just sort of the career goes up and up and up and then personal problems start to interfere and other things start to come into the picture, but i remember something that bobby brown said on their reality show that some people get into the music business to meet people and that was bobby and some people get into the music business to show their talent,

and that was whitney, he said. you know the talent was extraordinary. >> extraordinary, yes. >> was generational, was historic. >> very multigenerational at that, wouldn't you agree? >> yes, i mean in an era when, you know, a lot of people are helped by producers and studio tricks to sing and there's not as many people as maybe there used to be who could really, really sing and really captivate, really make you feel it in your bones, whitney houston stood above all others as really being able to sing and make you feel it, and really interpret a song and just really blow you away. i always looked at her as sort of a ferrari among voices in that her voice was just so far above everybody else's. >> did you notice in recent years when she was making a comeback that her voice did seem changed a little bit?

>> 40 some years old? there's an athletic aspect to singing and it's hard to mainta maintain, that's like saying moehl jordan when he was with the wizards couldn't jump as high. of course he couldn't but still one of the greatest ball players around and whitney houston was still one of the greatest around. i interviewed her when she did the rounds for her last album, and she was sitting with clive davis, and you know, we talked about that she was sort of on an island, you know, just sort of luxuriating on her own and clive was like you have to come back. sitting on an island sounds a lot more interesting than all this. why did you come back? she basically talked about the love of the game, that she loves to sing. she loves to make songs, she loves to sing for people, and show off her immense talent, and she couldn't stay away. >> right, and how did you find her as a person when you interviewed her as she was

making her comeback? was she confident? did she have trepidation? >> she always had confidence, definitely a chip on her shoulder. she knew she was great. you didn't have to tell her she was great. there was an elegance to her and a loveliness to her, but i think could you also see another side through the sequin dress with the heels and whitney was not one to play with and if you disrespected her, you know, you would get pushed back into your place very quickly, i mean in aware of herdefinitely a sitting on a throne. >> what was it like being there with clive davis and whitney houston? what was their relationship like? >> their relationship was very close because clive davis is one of the great record men of all-time, and he's known for having ears. he's not just a marketer, but he can hear a raw talent, and whitney is one of those who he heard of before she was known, before anybody was really, you

know, looking at her and he was like that's the one. she can be a superstar and he helped make her a superstar and she's one of the reasons but perhaps one of the key reasons why he is considered one of the great record men of all-time, so i mean they had a very close friendship, you know, a very close is symbiotic business relationship. >> we are getting word from the associated press, whitney houston dead at the age of 48. we're waiting for confirmation on this and also waiting to find out a cause of this. do you think that she was happy, toure, with the level of success that the last, the most recent album, sort of that comeback album, when you sat down with her achieved or was it a little bit of a disappointment? >> i think when you get to whitney houston's level, you know, you're not really concerned with such things. the people no longer, you know, like you're not really like concerned with charting every

100,000 or every -- she's had -- >> everybody wants a successful album. >> absolutely. >> she's used to having major success. >> absolutely, but she's aware of the modern record business where that just doesn't really happen except for adelle last year, nobody sells around 2 million records and very few get to that level so she's aware there's a different economy that's possible, just the scale that she could have gotten to with her first album, not really available for anybody anymore really, but you know, i mean i think back to talking to prince, a similar level of mass of star, he's like look, the album is a success when i finish it, and when i think that it's great, and i imagine whitney probably felt pretty much the same way, when i finish singing and i listen to the final mix and i think it's good enough, i walk out of the studio with my head held high and i know it's great and i'm not waiting for

validation from the rest of you who don't know singing nearly as well as i do. >> exactly. do you think she was sort of ts that she was an incredible actress and i was surprised she didn't act more. >> not that they're the only two who did that but that they both have tremendous singing careers as divas with lauded voices, obviously whitney is in the pop, and barbra went further with her acting and directing but yeah what whitney did opposite kevin costner, at his height in "the bodyguard" is interesting to see, she's holding her own with him. >> toure, thank you. we have reverend al sharpton the host of "politics nation" here

on msnbc. thank you for joining us as we're getting word of this sad news. you knew whitney houston. what are you thinking right now? >> i mean, i am absolutely in shock. i'm in los angeles. i come out yesterday to do "the bill maher" show and "politics nation" and the hotel i'm at many people are here at the grammys and people are just walking around in shock. i knew whitney probably the last 20 years, and many of us that seen her go through her ups and downs, but no one had her voice and no one had her range, and i know her mother, sissy very well, trying to reach her. she comes out of a gospel family, gospel singing family, and she took that to a whole nother level with her and aunt dionne. this is a shock that i really can't even describe. 48 years old, a beautiful voice, faced the trials and

tribulations that many artists did, but obviously if she has passed at this age, it's something that will stun the music world and i can tell you many of them are here in los angeles gathered for the grammys, and this will be a very, very sad weekend in all of the world, both the music world and those that love the world. >> reverend sharpton can you tell us how she's been doing in the last couple of years? >> i mean, i've seen her at some events about a year ago, and she was fighting back. she seemed to be grasping, wanting to come back and do things. she talked about during a different project, and everyone was rooting for her. her mother had, you know, solicited everybody's prayers. i did not know intimately what she was doing. i would just see her and she seemed to be on the rebound, and that is why this is so shocking,

and i just, i'm almost at a loss for words because this was something that no one that i knew saw coming. >> did you know bobby brown or did you know her well when she was married to bobby brown? >> i knew bobby from when he was in new edition. i knew him a long time and i knew him when they had their ups and downs but i knew both whitney and bobby before they were married and you know, while they were married but i knew bobby when he was a youngster in new edition. >> you had the two superstars with extraordinarily talents getting together and getting married and having a child together. what do you think happened professionally to her that she really never had that kind of success that she enjoyed in the late '80s and early '90s and had one of the most amazing voices that ever graced the planet. >> well i mean there's a lot of industry politics. there's a lot of things that go on in people's lives.

i guess it would be over the next few days, started out and i really at this moment would say we should pray for her daughter and her family and let us sort out her career and the family that she left as the days go on. the only thing i can say is that we lift her and her family in prayer. >> what is the significance of whitney houston culturally. she was so huge for this african-american woman who really crossed all barriers. >> i think that whitney houston crossed barriers. she was the one that took the fever status of diana ross to the next level. there was nowhere she couldn't perform, nowhere she couldn't outperform. she comes out of a gospel tradition but she took that and diana ross's breakthroughs to another level and i think that she will always be remembered as

one that raised the bar in terms of where a black female artist went. >> do you remember the first time you heard her sing, reverend sharpton? >> i remember you know we were all out in the '80s about black promoters and wanting the concerts and i went to see whitney and talk to her about that and i watched her show and i couldn't believe the range. she would hit notes that wasn't on the board it looked like to me. i couldn't believe the range and the gratefulness, no straining. she could open her mouth and sing and some people struggled to get up. she would, with almost no effort seem to reach levels that no artist in her time could do, and i think that when all the other stuff is sought out and when we go through all of the weeds, she'll be remembered for having a voice that only god could have given her, and she used it to break down barriers. >> she sure did. what did you think about her to go in n she started acting?

that direction? >> i didn't encourage her but i watched it, again, i saw her make a transition and did well. i mean, she did "the bodyguard" and others, she performed well on the screen. a lot of people can't make the transition and the thing that whitney had was not only a great voice, she had an appearance and demeanor that translated well, so she was one of the few that became a star both on screen and on record and in live performances. >> and seeing her in real life i imagine she was incredibly beautiful. >> she was one of the few female artists that didn't need makeup to be beautiful. >> what was your favorite whitney houston song? >> a lot of whitney's songs i loved. one of the last times i saw her i told her this, she played a song not that long ago, maybe a

couple of years ago about, it was a semispiritual song, and i loved that song, and i teased her about it, called "i look to you" and it was almost like a testimony coming back, and where she sung that song with great passion, "i look to you" and i loved a lot of the songs out of the '80s but i remember "i look to you." >> reverend sharpton, i have to ask because you've known her for 20 years what kind of woman was whit flee houston this in her mid-40s and the last couple of years? >> i think she in her early years was talented and determined. i think through later and trials and tribulations and rediscovered and sought that determination, and you know, real great people are not those that live just lives that are

straight lines. real champions are people that can get up after they were knocked down and i think she had the ability and she was getting up. she had gotten up, knocked back down, gotten up and i think that people should remember her great voice and her resilience. all of us face challenges in life. it's how we handle them that i think will tell our story. >> there will never be another whitney houston, that is for sure. reverend al sharpton host of "politics nation" out in los angeles thank you for joining us and talking to us about your friend, whitney houston. on the phone we have kim serrafin from "in touch weekly." what is going on, it is grammy weekend, with sad news got to be rocking the music industry. >> yeah, when you hear something like this and know something like this it's terrible and to happen on a weekend like this when everyone is in town, the entire music community here, it's an incredible shock.

so this is just -- it's terrible. there are so many people that are speechless and just listening to al sharpton talk about her, you think about the scope of her career and how many young musicians she has influenced, how many musicians that you'll hear at the grammys tomorrow that i hear everyone time someone opens their mouth on "american idol" audition or "america's got talent" or "the advice" audition, they were so influenced by whitney houston and you realize the scope of her career and music. >> i was reading earlier today clive davis was going to have a big party obviously since it's grammys weekend. he was very close to her and always stood by her side. >> right. he really did. he really did. exactly. he always does his big night before the grammys party, so this is even more incredible this is happening. he was so instrumental in her career and he really did stand by her, because clearly she was such a huge force and then in later years we all heard of the

tales about her drug use and other issues that came up in her life but he really did stand by her and for it to happen this weekend when all of this is happening, you know, it's really incredible. >> ironic, very obvious and tragic again. we want to let viewers know we are getting word from the associated press whitney houston dead at the age of 48. we're waiting for confirmation and waiting to find out possible causes for her early death. kim, what do you think whitney was poised for right now professionally. >> you know everyone here in hollywood i'm sure i've been on with you many times we talk about the stars that reach the high point and get brought down and have a huge comeback and everyone was waiting. if anyone could do it it would be who had the support of the music industry and family with

the musical background so many people were pulling for her, really would love to have her make a huge comeback. that would have been great to see and near hollywood, yes, people love to pull people down and highlight all of the problems in your life whether it be drugs or anything else, people also love to celebrate a great come back and she would have been sun who would have had the support of so many people. >> it's true everybody was always rooting for her. kim serafin i ask you to stay on the line. alicia quarrels of the associated press broke the story of whitney's death. alicia, what can you tell us about the story? >> our music editor broke the stoef story. it's really sad. i interviewed whitney recently, she was really thin and you always worry about her health but she had an album coming out with jordin sparx, she was

coming back. >> did she seem healthy and calm? >> i found her to be healthy and qualm, i interviewed with her with clive davis, she doesn't love to do a lot of press but she was funny. she was poignant, and i enjoyed the conversation very much. she was very lucid at that time, so this is just sad. >> what can you tell us about this movie that was coming out that she was just filmed? >> she filmed "sparkle" and it's a remake and we've done set visits and she looked good, was in her prime, her voice sounded good. people said she was a pleasure to be around on set. it's a tragedy and she has a daughter, bobby christina, with bobby brown, whom she was married to for a long time. immediately you think of her daughter and what she must be feeling now. >> do you know, was her relationship with bobby brown in the later years more amicable

now that their divorce was settled and they had both moved on? >> it was much more amicable in the later years. we saw the reality show and they let us in on their lives but bobby brown has moved on, he's with somebody else, with a child, and it was much more amicable, seemed like they had grown up. >> were you surprised at the ups and downs of her career? >> i was surprised initially, because you have to remember in the '80s when whitney houston came out she was the golden girl, she was pure class and after "the bodyguard" things came out about drug usage and you saw the reality show it was kind of shocking but you always rooted for whitney. she had that gift, that beautiful voice and she could act and you knew she would make a comeback. >> what was she like in real life being a presence. we're looking at video from the '80s, recent video, she was extraordinarily beautiful. did you feel like you were in the presence of a diva? >> yes, beautiful, very thin and tall but i remember being at

this event and for her it was about family. she had her daughter there and aunt dionne in the front audience. she had family there. it was all about thin and so she gave them shout-outs and talked about thin. here this woman, a great superstar, and wasn't a diva. >> i let the viewers know we're talking about alicia quarles of the associated press, breaking the story of whitney houston dead at the age of 48. whitney houston was led out of a club last night. can you tell us anything about this, alicia? >> we don't have any details on that. we're reporting the story out. it will be interesting as the hours and minutes go about toy find out what happened. >> do you no he where the club was? >> don't know where the club was. we know she was in town this week. i'm in l.a. as is most entertainment people are here for the grammies so there's been a ton of lead-up events. she could have been at one of several events. >> when you were interviewing her was she promoting her film

and new music? you interviewed her with clive davis recently. >> she was promoting her album, her last album she came out with and it was a big deal because she hadn't put music out in a while, hadn't done interviews in a long time so we were trying to see what would she say and sound like. the voice sounded great. clive davis discovered her, he was her mentor, that's why he was with her doing the interview and he's supposed to be having a party, his annual party, so one has to wonder will he even show up, what's he feeling, the woman he knew since she was a teenager and groomed and now for her to be dead. >> what do you think the significance of whitney houston's career is going to be? >> i think the significance and the legacy is just going to be the pure talent. there are so many songs she put out "i will always love you," "didn't we almost have it all" it was a pure voice. we covered this jennifer hudson event and jennifer said whitney houston inspired her and she

grew up singing her songs and it was all about whitney so that shows you one example of how she influenced people. >> how is the mood out there? is this news spreading very quickly i would imagine? >> it's spreading extremely quickly. all of my publicists, friends and contacts have been e-mailing and calling, people calling crying ty it. these are industry people that knew her, worked with her and it's just sad. everybody is in a state of shock and just you know just very, very sad because what a talent, what a talent. >> what an incredible talent is right. are you heard anything recently about her using again or anything to that effect? >> of course there are always unsomebody stand shated reports she was back on drugs, it wasn't anything we can confirm yet but we don't know why she's dead but you look at the people that end up in rehab and these people gone too soon it's a cautionary tale to take care of yourself. you can't abuse your body.

>> do you think her voice had suffered in recent years? >> yeah, i mean her voice wasn't at its peak, back in the '80s. she could hit every single note and of course because of the lifetime it had taken a toll on her voice. her voice was not the same, was it a gorgeous voice a lot would kill for, yes. was it the whitney voice of the '80s? no. >> okay, alicia, i also wanted to ask you about we were hearing reports that she possibly may have even gone on to one of the hosts of "american idol." >> there were reports she was signing up to be on "american idol" which is so sat because it wasn't like whitney houston wasn't getting offers. this is a woman on the come-up as of late so it's really shocking that a woman that was signing deals and making movies and putting out albums that this happened. >> has there been any reaction of bobby brown's camp as the news is breaking?

>> there hasn't been a reaction from his camp or his daughter so far. we don't know whether they're at the hospital. they've got to be in shock and just grieving. >> alicia quarles of the associated press, reporting whitney houston dead at the age of 48. thank you for joining us. chris witherspoon is entertainment editor of thegrio.com. chris what are you hearing about whitney houston's death. >> so far we heard she passed away and found in a hotel room in los angeles. it's quite shocking. it's still hard to get our hands around it but it's a loss that you know we didn't expect with the grammys. we're all grieving. >> give us the rundown of highlights of her career. >> best known for her "bodyguard" soundtrack. she talks about how that was a big part of her career and she had "the bodyguard" years in the

early '90s, she was on different shows and performances, live performances and after that she kind of, it kind of began to go downhill from there. she did have some other albums but they never reached that pinnacle of her career and then you know, her career went hand in hand with her marriage to bobby brown which was you know -- >> tumultuous. >> in the public's eye it was quite tumultuous. >> what do you think she was, where she was right now professionally, because you're an entertainment editor. did you look at whitney houston and think she's in the middle of a big comeback and she is going to be back at those heights. >> i think yeah she definitely, locally i don't think we expected her to do much locally anymore, her last album was not that great. she did go on a european tour canceled early. >> why was that canceled early? >> because her vocal abilities weren't up to par. audiences were walking out. people still came out in droves to see her.

her tour never made it to the u.s. for her most recent album which was two or three years ago, but people were looking forward to her debuting a film called "sparkle" which is a remake of a film she was executive producing, so her acting career was back on the mend, her producing was back on the mend, she was making public appearances again, she got rid of bobby brown and that marriage seemed to be something that held her back. she talked to oprah two years ago about that. in terms of her career as an actress, there was still hope but vocally she wasn't delivering anymore. >> reverend al sharpton was speaking to us a few moments ago and he said that whitney houston well took that sort of diana ross superstar dom and took it to the major next level. do you think that's true? >> she coupled beauty with vocal ability beyond diana ross. diana ross was a legendary actress and beautiful but

whitney was known for the voice and later on acting abilities. she did what diana did and took it to another level. its see sad she ended her career before diana, so much sooner. >> she wasn't able to do a tour of the last u.s. a bum and someone people were always rooting for. why do you think there wasn't the market for that? >> i think the european tour was more of a test with the record label to see if whitney still had what she had all those years, if she could still sell out alinas and give a two-hour show. those tours are gruelling and exhausting and midway through she wasn't cutting it. if she had shown she had the voice they would have made it a u.s. tour, would have been proof whitney could still deliver but unfortunately the internet, the youtube clips went viral and everywhere you turned you saw this -- >> sad. >> this sad performance of almost, you know, it was irrecognizable. her being on stage and straining

to hit the low notes when she was on tour in europe, it was unbelievable. >> very, very painful to listen to. stay with us for a moment, please. reverend joe watkins, skill on the phone who traveled with whitney houston, one of her consultants. reverend watkins, you've been talking about knowing her well and reverend sharpton, what are your thoughts? >> i'm in a state of shock and praying for her family, her daughter, for her mom, for her brothers, and sisters-in-law and for her ex-husband, just praying for the family right now. you know, i had a chance to know her pretty well in the early years, and i'm looking at the pictures now in my house when she came to the white house, she made several trips to the white house when i was working for the president at the time and --

>> that was president bush xli? >> president h.w. bush. talking with her, sitting with her and her mother and talking about what we might discuss with the president when we went into the oval office and she was saying she would love to get a tour of the house. i said the only way you get that is if mrs. bush invites you to do that so you should ask the president to meet mrs. bush. and so when we got into the oval office of course, she was talking to the president and the president said to whitney, whitney who would you like to meet while you're here, she said i'd love to meet your wife. she came with mrs. bush, millie the dog and anna perez her press secretary, they had a chat and mrs. bush turned to whitney and said would you like to see the house and whitney turned to me and smiled and said "yes i would." >> it's funny having this image of whitney houston and her height of super stardom with barbara bush, two very different

but powerful ladies. what was it like for whitney houston with the bushes. tell us about that. >> she had gthink she really en time. president george h.w. bush is a very warm man and he just, there were no cameras in there, there were photos taken but once the kament rahs left he sat down and spent real time with whitney and her family. >> really? >> i think she really appreciated that and mrs. bush coming over and giving a tour. i remember, i went up with them and she and mrs. bush stood outside on that balcony outside i think it's the lincoln bedroom in the white house and did an imaginary wave as if there were throngs of people on the south lawn of the wlous. it was pretty funny. >> i was speaking to you moments ago you said she could often be shy. >> well, yeah, i mean on stage she was the commanding presence. her voice by itself was so

incredible. her range was so incredible. she could hit every note, and sound just like in person like she did on the records, and so then she would strut out on stage and command an audience, have the attention of the audience in the palm of her hand. it was something for me to start talking with her, remember one of the first times we chatted in her father's office. i was just taken aback at how regular a person she was and how kind of shy she was, because i thought she would be just as commanding in a private office setting as she was on stage and she was not, and i thought that was within develop about her. i thought she was very real and just a good person. >> and do awe contribute that to her family, coming from this religious family? >> absolutely. >> her mother and sister and famous gospel singer. they had a close-knit, normal family.

the first thing sissy told me, i knew she had a great music career but how she sang at church and about the choir and my church she found because i was a minister, and we became fast friends. once she found that i was an ordained minister we became fast friends and that's where whitney got her start singing in church and singing with her mom. >> that was in newark, new jersey, correct? >> yes, in east orange and newark, new jersey, is where she got started. >> they were a very, very storied gospel family. >> absolutely. absolutely. aunt dionne of course and she was close to aretha franklin as well, a number of the greats and all these people, and she had her mother a guiding force of her life and somebody who really helped to shape and mold whitney's singing career. >> reverend watkins you were traveling with her and working

with her really at the height of her career, looking at a very iconic picture of whitney houston with the big spotlight in the background. >> yes. >> what did she make of all of the fame that came upon her at an early age. >> i think she was thankful. oftentimes on tour she'd ask me to lead everybody in prayer before she went out on stage. i didn't do it all the time. sometimes kirk wayland or others in the band. she had an impressive group of people singing and playing for her. ricky minor who you may see on "the tonight show" was her musical director back in the early '90s and late '80s, just a great group of folks but she would always ask that there be a word of prayer before going out on stage and sometimes i would lead and sometimes others would. reverend sharpton talked about some of her more recent songs having a gospel tint to them. i think at the end of the it all she was very thankful for how

her life had been blessed and the great opportunity she had to perform and use her talent >> how was she around fans? you were with her when she was touring. >> she took the time to talk to people. it's hard when you're a superstar as she was and when you have throngs of people coming toward you. she took time with people and she was very, very gracious and accommodating. people will come over to you when you're eating and not realize that even though you may be a music superstar thaw need to eat also but it was never an instance where i didn't see her take time and talk to somebody or try to give an autograph to somebody who wanted one. >> reverend watkins how much of a hand did she have in the early days when the hits were coming out and how a song would be arranged, how much would she contribute to that. >> i think she had a good bit of impact on that, but she had some

outstanding people. a range of producers around her helped guide her and that really with the natural talent that she had with her voice made those songs that she sang a hit. she took songs sung by other people and made them into mega hits. >> sure, lix "i will always love you." >> "like "i will always love you." give credit to the people around her who in some instances wrote songs for them, in other cases redid songs for her. she had a great team of people around her. >> when we look at the pictures of her in the beautiful gowns she was so elegant. was that the woman she was in real life offstage, elegant, sophisticated and glamorous. >> i thought she was glamorous and sophisticated but privately down-to-earth. that's what i was talking about earlier being on tour, playing games and just laughing about things, very much down to earth. there were a lot of pressures

that are put on people when they're in the midst of super stardom. i think she handled them very well and she had a great support system around her. she was an elegant person. she was a model before she became a superstar singer and so very naturally full and talented. >> she had a lot of gifts for sure. i want to ask you reverend watkins, when you think of whitney houston in the later years what words come to mind? >> i was glad to see her making a comeback. i really was and it really warmed my heart to see her on the comeback trail. i had high hopes for this new movie and for her singing career. you know, the human voice, it's hard for somebody to maintain the level of superiority with their voice over the course of decades, but certainly her acting career and singi