i'll tell you right now. i ain't putting santorum in the game. he can do cheers in his little sweater vests. what's this commercial for again? right, and get off my damn lawn. >> so good. bill hader doing clint eastwood on snl the other night. john tower has a quick answer. what do you got? >> danielle on twitter breaking a little news here. she writes willie geist and lil kim on watch what happens live. >> that is a true story. wednesday night, 11:00 eastern with the great andy cohen, will sit next to lil kim. me and the queen bee. you can't miss that. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ spent 25 years balancing

budgets, eliminating waste, and keeping as far away from government as humanly possible. i did -- i did some of the very things conservatism is designed for. i started new businesses and turned around broken ones. and i'm not ashamed to say that i was successful in doing it. i know conservatism because i have lived conservatism. now as governor of massachusetts, i had the unique experience of defending conservative principles in the most liberal state in the nation. when i -- there are three people from massachusetts here, i appreciate that. my state was the leading indicator of what liberals have been doing across the country and they're trying to do right now and i fought against long odds in a deep blue state, but i was a severely conservative republican governor.

i understand that the battles we as conservatives must fight because i have been on the front lines. and expect to be on those front lines again. >> all right. good morning. it is severely monday. february 13th. >> and i'm severely fat. >> well, there are some good uses of the word. >> do you think that fits? >> no, you're just moderately. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday. february 13th, with us onset, we have the executive editor at random house, we have jon meacham and host of cnbc's "mad money" jim cramer and you look fine. >> severely fine. >> no, you look fine. >> i got you this, willie. >> oh, official merchandise. >> at the armory in new york city. they were very nice.

a lot going on. a lot happening. >> a ton going on over the weekend. >> everyone's talking about the death of whitney houston. >> very sad. death of whitney houston. unfortunately, just a very difficult decline. adele last night at the grammys. >> she won six. she's my daughter's favorite. i think she's fantastic. >> in an age of phony pop stars looking like super models and stuff and the dresses, she is wildly talented. >> yeah, no bells and whistles. just stands there. >> speaking of jon meacham always stuffing things into things -- >> what? >> what about this use of severely by jon meacham's favorite candidate mitt romney. he's mr. adverb. he has taken the adverb -- >> he as absorbed -- when you listen to newt gingrich, which everyone should do, there's a

propensity for the adverbial and you've made this point too. where everything is frankly, candidly, you know, and so now we have severely. and adverbs, i think, and here's a way to start your week. adverbs, you're protesting too much when you're sort of fighting to modify the verb. if you are conservative, say you're conservative. >> so we have mitt romney who won the straw poll and so rick santorum saying that he rigged it. >> maine. >> he won maine. he had ron paul saying he rigged it there. and i think the biggest headline the first two days this week in the political world is you're going to have a new set of polls coming out that are going to probably show mitt romney losing in his home state of michigan to rick santorum. ppp polls coming out later today that are going to show, or tomorrow show actually a big rick santorum lead, the bleeding

has begun, the question is whether he'll be able to stop it or not. and of course, today, the president puts out his budget. >> he does at 11:00 this morning. president obama will put forward his budget for the next fiscal year. this budget will shape the political fight ahead for the presidential election. now yesterday, the president spoke at northern virginia community college. he's expected to offer in his budget a balance of long-term deficit reduction and short-term stimulus measures aimed at tackling the $15 trillion debt while simultaneously keeping the economic recovery afloat. >> so, jim, i look at it as a conservative and all i see is a lot of spending. we've got another year with another $1 trillion deficit when we were told originally it was going to go down at least into triple digits, but that's not happening. and some economists believe that's actually the wise move. what do you think? >> we're still at the beginning

of the recovery. the recovery is gaining steam. i know ben bernanke was abject saying, look, we cannot let this go back, slip back to the way it was. bernanke is deeply rooted in 1937. he remembers when you had a recovery and then the recovery died. i don't think the spending's wrong. i do think that the revenue increases simply never get passed. the republicans will never allow anything that increases revenue. >> they're going to put their own budget out i think in the next couple of days, as well. the plan is going to call -- let's look at some specifics, for nearly $4 trillion in deficit reduction over the next decade with much of the savings coming from the expiration of the bush tax cuts, ending of wars in iraq and afghanistan, medicare, and medicaid and tax increases for the richest americans. the president predicts that there will be a $1.33 trillion shortfall or 8.5% of gdp for this year marking the fourth

straight year of trillion dollar deficits. >> the numbers are historic. and we are four years out from the 2008 collapse. and we're still running deficits of over $1 trillion. now to put that into perspective for the first 200 years of this country's existence, we didn't accumulate $1 trillion in debt. for 200 years, and now we're accumulating it every year. i was -- i wrote a book in 2004 attacking george w. bush for his massive deficits because they were creeping up on $400 billion. i ran for congress for the first time because bill clinton and george h.w. bush were allowing deficits to go over $250 billion. now $1 trillion every year while we look in the streets of greece and see where this is going, jon meacham. >> that's the other story. >> there's a historical trend line here and doesn't look good for us. yet we're still putting budgets

out with $1 trillion deficits. >> are we rome? and if so, have we now overstretched ourselves so much financially and then militarily, obviously, which has a connection there that when you look back say at a century's distance people will say how could you not have seen this coming? >> right. >> and, you know, you can always hindsight's wonderful, but this is a fairly -- >> well, willie, and it is a straightforward proposition. if you're writing a book about great britain's decline, you can see that over the arc of the 20th century. if you're writing a book about western democracy's decline, you can see it since the end of world war ii. we created expansive welfare states, we kept promising money to citizens that we didn't have, and we refused to pay for it. because a lot of people believe if you pay for all of those, that welfare state, you're going

to basically kill the golden goose. >> that's what's frustrating a lot of people, not just republicans that this, again, does not tackle the big questions, the long-term questions. we're going to have a fight again over the extension of the payroll tax cuts, a fight we had two months ago. at the end of this year, over the extension of the bush tax cuts. we're having fights over small battles and we're not doing the war, which is real debt and deficit reduction. i just want to ask cramer, the white house says this is no time for austerity, we can't get into medicare and all that right now. do you agree with that? and if not, when is a good time? >> there's two kinds of austerity. there's the longer term austerity, which everyone admits is telling, except the white house. we could put things out for 10, 15 years that would help. we're getting reprieved because long-term bonds are at 3%. that's going to last as long as europe is the focus. once they're done wrecking europe in terms of taking portugal down or greece down, they're going to come after us,

and our rates are going to spike and whatever recovery we have is going to be muted by the fact that interest rates are going higher. we've got a window to get something right and we're not taking it. >> it's ridiculous, to talk about medicare and social security reform over the next 25, 30, 40 years and saying that's austerity, that's not austerity. it's very simple. you tell people if you're the president you're going to say i'm going to take care of medicare and medicaid right now. if you're born before 1960, go off and eat a pot pie or whatever, do what you do because this doesn't involve you. if you were born in the 1960s, you're going to get your benefits when you're 67. if you were born in 1970 or later, you're going to get it when you're 70. end of conversation. we're going to -- we're going to cap the increases for medicare and medicaid at 4%. and now everybody -- by the way, that will not impact the economy now for the next 15, 20, 30 years.

>> i do want to show -- >> it's a cop out to say we can't address social security and medicare. >> for sure. there are some other things like defense. >> by the way, can i just to make a bigger point about this, mika? if you do that, jim cramer, the world markets do what. they respond by saying, safe bet long-term, united states of america, let's dump all of our cash there because europe's going under and china's about to flat line. >> right. this is a place. the united states has an opportunity to become the place to invest in. if they know long-term our dollar is going to be worth something. the way to depreciate the currency. i'm not a strong dollar guy, i want the dollar not to go down. the way to address it is long-term. short-term we're fine. we're fine, and you know that because of the 30-year bond and the 20-year bond, it tells you that. long-term we could be terrible. and you mentioned greece. this is where greece went wrong.

it went wrong 10, 15 years ago, hid what's happening, what went wrong in spain. we still have a chance. we've got to take it. >> yep. >> we can talk about this because greek lawmakers voted to approve tough new austerity measures. a plan that triggered the country's worst rioting in years. look at this video. the deal would slash $4 billion from the budget and call for a harsh pension cuts and elimination of 15,000 jobs. it paved the way for greece to receive about $170 billion in loans from foreign leaders to keep the country from defaulting on its debt. violence erupted in seven cities including athens where more than 120 people were hurt. despite the bailout, some leaders are questioning whether greece can recover from its devastating recession. jon meacham? >> and jon meacham, you look, and these are warning signs. you look at exotic places, greece, italy, california, i mean, sacramento, all those foreign countries.

it's, again, it is the same formula. promise too much and welfare state benefits and just wait for the economy to melt down. >> and i think that -- to my mind that's the great political cultural hurdle we have to get over. we go from the birthplace of democracy to -- a very important piece in the "new york times" yesterday about how government is not just about poor people. and it's the middle class that is dependent in many ways -- >> that was a great piece. >> -- on the government to actually -- >> the very people who say we don't want the government involved in health care are the very people who say don't touch my medicare. the very tea party activists who say washington's gotten too big and too involved, there was a poll

and that's why and i know it's like a drinking game at this point, but simpson/bowles, he had to cover -- that's why you have a commission is to give yourself cover. >> something else to watch, the birthrate in this country, down, minus 3.7%. we had a demographic shift. we saw what happened in japan. japan is bankrupt. no one talks about japan. gdp numbers out last night, their economy is in severe decline. low birthrate. there's just no children being born there, no one is going to be paying for the elderly. >> yeah. same thing with italy. so it's -- and you know, willie, you were talking about the

budget and -- >> as you always do. >> people avoiding -- >> you keep bringing it up. >> you know what's going to happen, you're going to have the president, he's put his budget out and it's talking past republicans, you've got the democrats in the senate who are going to go another 1,000 days without having the courage to put out a budget. and then you've got the republicans in the house that are going to pass a budget that's going to talk right past the president. and you're going to have these lobbies back and forth and nobody's going to get together. >> and these are core questions. as cramer said, republicans have said, we're not going to do new taxes. there are $1.5 trillion of new taxes in the president's budget. he doesn't want to extend the bush tax cuts further. those are issues we haven't been able to get past and there's no reason to believe we'll get past them this time. >> and the democrats aren't talking about entitlement reform. there are two big things that will happen but after the election. one is expiration of the bush tax cuts. and by the way, republicans have to go to the president to get something done on that.

because if he doesn't sign it, it -- they expire. >> right. >> the other end, they're going to have to raise the debt ceiling again. and there the president's going to have to go to the republicans who are not going to want to raise the debt ceiling. and so sadly, mika, looks like we have to get through another election year without any real -- >> movement. significant -- >> on the budget, on the deficit, on taking care of the long-term debt. >> the long-term health of this country. >> long-term health of this country. >> we didn't even get to the hhs controversy, which you addressed on "meet the press" yesterday. >> you said you didn't understand what i said. >> it didn't make a lot of sense to me. that's okay. >> well, it's good to know that it's the same thing on the weekends as weekdays. >> it wasn't weekday joe, it was a different one. >> what do you mean? >> i don't know. >> i didn't scream? >> you thought it was very self-destructive of the obama administration but ultimately you think it might be good. >> no, what i said was the

president struck a deal on friday. >> mm-hmm. >> that is meaningless. what it says is -- it must be great being a democrat, you don't want to pay for your birth control. that's okay, we'll give it away for free. so while the substance of that actually spreads the -- the contribution of contraceptives to all catholics and all americans, still republicans have to be careful at this point because last week this was about first amendment rights. >> right. >> this week it's about contraceptives, contraception. and if the debate is on those grounds, republicans will get routed. they're going to be putting out bills on the house floor, they need to be weary of how they move on this because you're going to scare off a lot of suburban conservative women, voters.

>> who use birth control. coming up, jeff flake of arizona will be here, tom brokaw will join us, e.j. dionne, and peggy noonan. up next, politico's mike allen with exclusive details on how the santorum campaign is planning to break out the race against romney. he's back, it's bill, he's got the forecast. >> you could add better than ever. that was better than i usually get from you guys. good morning, everyone, it was a cold day around the nation and now snow has moved into the heartland. a widespread snow. not heavy, but many people dealing with snow including st. louis, kansas city, chicago, yesterday it was here in amarillo, texas. a lot of areas of south texas dealt with the snow and a lot of traffic accidents. and this is what's heading through the heartland today. be careful on your morning commute. there's the snow on the map from st. louis right now, just outside dallas, we have reports of some sleet too. not a big snow.

1 to 3 inches widespread and as far as new england goes, yesterday was brutally cold, a big improvement today, the winds are dying off, windchills in the teens, temperatures today, though, will top out in the upper 30s to low 40s. we're going back to normal at least and don't expect any snow this week in new england. as far as the southeast goes, okay today with rain moving your way for valentine's day, of course, that's tomorrow and much of the country is going to warm up. you're watching "morning joe" on this monday brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] we know you don't wait

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♪ we've got to do more than just begin to talk to the opposition in syria because the reality on the ground is since the u.n. resolution was vetoed by russia and iran, the assad government has begun to kill its own people with increasing

frequency. hundreds since then. so i think it's time to try to help the brave syrian freedom fighters to carry out a fair fight. and i think it's time to give them help. medical help first and then i'd give them training, i'd give them communications equipment, and then ultimately, i'd give them weapons. >> joining us now is richard haass. joe liberman wants to sends troops to a muslim country. >> he wasn't talking about that. he was talking about sending aid. two problems with that. one is the people we might be sending aid to i'm not sure qualify as freedom fighters. it's a bit early to say that. we ought to -- >> well, we didn't know that in libya either, did we? >> and we ought to have learned something from it. >> what's happening now in syria is all too reminiscent of afghanistan, iraq, and lebanon.

it's becoming the theater of which all locals are fighting things out from turkey, iran, to iraq and everybody else. and it's way, way too soon to take that step. >> and by the way, i know there will be some anti-obama people that will be shocked, shocked that i would say this. but you can look at libya and see some things that happened there that helped us. by "leading from behind." which means getting out of our own way and letting the arab league condemn libya before we go in with bombs. here we've got the arab league now getting involved in this. taking strong steps, and now the syrians are fighting the arab league. isn't it best at this point for us to stand back and say, you know what? let them fight this out and we'll come in when everybody begs us to. >> i think we should let the turks take the lead, working with the arab world. what we're doing is really important, which is the economic sanctions. the u.s. answer to every one of

these things need not be military intervention with u.s. forces or nato forces or sending arms in. we ought to have learned the lesson that simply one set of tools ought not to be the default option. >> how fascinating, though, you do have the arab league which usually is lined up against the united states of america. and one resolution after anot r another, now you've got them out front. on syria, an enemy, gadhafi, an enemy. >> and that's the country most isolated is russia. they played their hand very heavily along with china and so the russia foreign minister is running around syria, the middle east, finding themselves extraordinarily isolated. what we ought to do is keep working on them. maybe over time we can get the russians and the chinese to reconsider their opposition to the sanctions, turn the screws on the sanctions, as much as possible, in part to get the economic base of this regime and think twice before we move in.

>> we have two countries in the middle east that are the most isolated and they are our enemies, syria and iran. the united states not in the worst of all positions for once in the middle east. and let's talk about iran. the pentagon is reporting that ahmadinejad is talking about a big nuclear announcement. what do we do? what do we do with iran that the bush administration couldn't do and the obama administration hasn't been able to do for the first three years? >> we're not quite sure what this announcement is. it could be that the iranians have passed a new threshold in the development or that they're prepared to enter some sort of negotiations or both. the two are not mutually exclusive. for the time being, we do what we've been doing, which is turning up the pressure on iran, weakening the economy. what i would do is complement the sanctions we're putting out there with a negotiating

position basically telling the iranians, you'll be able to keep certain things in the nuclear realm depending on what it is you let the rest of the world do. the more intrusive the inspections, the more open we are to you having something. but yes, we do have to prepare for military contingencies. i think the israelis are signaling their tolerance is limited, i think the odds are even whether the israelis act over the next six months. we need to think through were that situation to materialize. >> i was going to ask you, so you think odds are even that israel hits iran. what does iran then do? >> well, i don't think anything's automatic. so many say well, the iranians do this, they do that, they close the streets of hormuz, maybe, but we need to think as the united states, what is it we might be able to do? or threaten to do that would

influence? it doesn't end when a war starts, that means it enters a new phase and we want to influence a scale of reaction. we could signal to the iranians, if you respond in certain ways, we could enter the war. that's the kind of planning we should do. that's not the end of the crisis, the end of one phase of the crisis. >> richard, can you explain something to me about dictators across the globe and tyrannies across the globe? why is it that they always -- and i mean always underestimate the united states' willingness to go in, hunt them down, capture them or kill them? osama bin laden attacked the united states because he believed we wouldn't have the strength to track him down and kill him. we did. saddam hussein made that miscalculation twice, two times

he made that miscalculation and he's dead because of it. in 1989, he had the machete saying if the united states comes down, we will hack them up with our machetes, i think he's been in some jail in south florida for decades, i think they've extradited him now, he's got to another jail. the iranians are making the same mistake. are they not? >> there's a pattern, as you've just -- >> because we are going to -- if they do this, if they cross a line, we will track them down and kill them. >> absolutely. >> do they not know that? >> there's a pattern where outsiders, particularly tyrannies or authoritarian regimes see our openness, see our debates, our culture and confuse that with weakness. they basically say simply because we're not thugs like they are they confuse that with american weakness. that is looking at the world through their eyes and that is obviously inaccurate. the whole idea that once a democracy gets aroused, what we ought to show people in a funny sort of way, whether it was

vietnam or the middle east is actually we may be sometimes careful to get involved, but what all these wars tell me that even when our interests are less than vital, we are prepared to put in years and years of effort, thousands and thousands of lives, billions and billions of dollars. they draw the wrong -- they see a lack of resolve, i see extraordinary -- >> they also see, mika, and this is the most important point for people out there who say, oh, the united states is dysfunctional and their system doesn't work. september 11th, osama bin laden attacks this country. george w. bush and dick cheney and that administration act as aggressively as humanly possible and a political battle erupts. and al qaeda sees an opening and they think, oh, what bush and cheney are doing is unpopular, they're going to get out of office and then things are going to loosen up on us. what happens? obama doubles down. he not only does he adopt bush and cheney's guidelines and their approach to the war on

terror, he increases the drone attacks. so history whether bush and obama supporters are going to like to read this or not are going to see these two different presidents joined at the shoulders and credit them both for wiping out al qaeda. >> and what happened is these other guys cherry pick history. they say the americans left iran or lebanon, so it's a self-serving bit of history and take those conclusions that the americans have no legs, we're weak. and in the top-heavy systems, no one has the guts to walk into the room of a saddam hussein and say, boss, you're wrong, you're wrong. these americans are actually -- >> yeah. >> the whole message, the whole kill the messenger, shoot the messenger, in places -- that's literal. that's where they invented it. well, turning from foreign policy to politico now, chief correspondent for politico mike allen here with the morning playbook. we start with rick santorum's

plan to derail romney. is it going to work? and what is it? >> well, good morning, mika. but first, very excited. one of the biggest additions to "politico" in five years debuting today, the joe scarborough blog. >> oh, that's huge. >> yes. oh, that's a cute cartoon. look at that. >> yeah. >> game-changer. >> it is a game-changer. and as i say in here, i'm going to be writing in this blog about zero -- zero to zero european football ties. >> what? >> the picture of him. >> alternative bands you've never heard of. things like that. it's going to be great. so you can take that down. >> well, very good. we look forward to reading that. now tell us about the plans the derail romney by rick santorum. >> all right. down to business. this rick santorum plan has two aims. one embarrass romney, two, drive newt gingrich out of the race. the santorum theory is that if it's a two-person race, santorum

v. romney, he can win. the key to this for them is ohio march 6th. but first michigan on february 28th, one of mitt romney's home states. he thinks if he can beat him there and joe suggested at the top, there's polls out today that might show he's doing that right now that it would put romney back on his heels and it would give him a good excuse to push gingrich out. as long as gingrich is in, santorum probably doesn't get traction. one of them is going to have to go to the other and push him out. this is how santorum thinks he could be the guy to do it. >> mike allen, right now the romney campaign has a very tough choice to make. this past weekend while rick santorum was downstairs shaking hands with the teeming masses at cpac, mitt romney was up talking to the leaders of the conservative movement who had a clear message for him. do not go negative on santorum. but his people know, they can't let santorum win michigan.

so are they going to go negative? are they going to stay positive? what -- what do they do? >> he's going to do at least a two track, and you've been asking for some positive plans for him. mark haleprin mentioned last week the economic speech that's coming up, that's going to have a lot of red meat in it. he's going to go hard on cutting the deficit. he's going to have a lot of spending restraint. the conservatives will like, so at the very least he'll have that. at the same time that he or others are trying to destroy santorum. they learned with gingrich you can't take your boot off the throat. i can't imagine them doing that with santorum. >> i can't either. it puts him in a tough position, mika. because if they don't go negative -- >> right. >> rick santorum could win michigan and that is -- that's always been seen as romney's fire wall. >> and with the family history for sure. mike allen, thanks so much. >> have a great week. coming up, phil mickelson and

tiger woods in a sunday showdown at pebble beach. >> did tiger finally win a tournament? >> not quite. plus "saturday night live" finally understands one of us on the set. >> why do you hate america? why do you hate detroit? >> the halftime in america ad which was so over the top. >> no, it wasn't. >> that's in "news you can't use." progresso. it fits! fantastic! [ man ] pro-gresso they fit! okay-y... okay??? i've been eating progresso and now my favorite old jeans...fit. okay is there a woman i can talk to? [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less.

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all right. let's do some sports, shall we? >> go tiger. >> two guys chasing each other. tiger woods -- >> two normal guys. >> phil mickelson. paired up at the pebble beach national pro am trying to make ground on the leader, charlie wi of south korea. mickelson dropping a long putt for eagle pushing him at 14 under par. mickelson goes from a six shot deficit to a two-shot lead. he's at 12 under, could be a fight to the end, but then tiger starts to come undone. misses a par put on eight, another par putt on nine. this is nine. third bogie in a row.

>> shame. >> drops to nine under par. and on 12. flashes of the old tiger, knocks one into the sand. chance for him to gain a couple of strokes there, but mickelson responds by burying a 38-foot putt for par. and on 18, mickelson up a couple of strokes, sticks it right at the flag, beautiful shot by mickelson. his wife celebrates with the gallery. he knocked in the birdie putt, 17 under par for the tournament, shot a 64 on sunday. victory at pebble beach, the 40th of his career. rough day for tiger who was a contender coming in, three over, 75 in the final round, finished for 15th place. tiger won at the end of last year. >> oh, did he? he's got that. >> he's getting his form back a little bit. >> i don't follow golf closely, is abu dhabi one of the four majors? >> no, but they pay you a lot of money to come play there. >> which makes it good. makes it good.

by the way, you haven't talked about this lin guy. >> i've talked endlessly about this lin guy. >> never. >> i can't stop talking about this lin guy. >> he's amazing. >> he's amazing. >> didn't he win another game this weekend? >> he won on saturday, they were in minnesota, scored 20 points, he hit the go ahead free throw. >> he's amazing. >> in the span of less than a week he came from nowhere -- when i say nowhere, if he went out on the street and asked 1,000 people, 999 wouldn't have heard of jeremy lin. >> and now everyone wants to go. when was the last time anyone said i've got to get to the knicks? everybody's trying to get a ticket. >> their coach said he's never seen anything like this in basketball. there's only one equivalent i can see. 1976, it's like he came off of another planet and just everybody stopped that summer to watch him. but this is equivalent. >> let's hope jeremy lin lasts longer than the byrd.

>> 38 against the lakers. >> took over the games, scored 38 points, outscored kobe. the place was up for grabs. i confess to having gone to a modelles the next day. he said we're printing the jerseys, we don't have them yet. and they had in the interim made up these jeremy lin t-shirts they were selling and there was a line at 10:00 in the morning. everyone had the jeremy lin shirt. >> and they're doing this, they're winning these games without their best players. >> that's their question. now the two superstars come back. how does that change things? carmelo and statemeier come back. >> at harvard? how did he finish? >> i don't think he was suma. might have been a magna. which isn't bad. >> they give you "as" for

showing up. >> it's an amazing story. >> that is an amazing story. up next, the must-read opinion pages, more "morning joe."

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look at that. the sun's coming up over washington. >> it's beautiful. >> richard haass is back at the table and time for the must-read opinion pages. "new york times," we need a second party. the republican party has let itself become the captive of conflicting ideological bases. antiabortion activists, social conservatives worried about the sanctity of marriage, libertarians who want to shrink government and anti-tax

advocates who want to drown government in a bathtub. sorry, but you can't address the great challenges america faces today with that incoherent mix of hardened positions. i've argued that maybe we need a third party to break open our political system. but that's a long shot. what we definitely and urgently need is a second party, a coherent republican opposition that is offering constructive conservative proposals on the key issues and is ready for strategic compromises to advance its interests and those of the country. until the gop stops being radical and returns to being conservative, it won't provide what the country needs most now. competition. competition with democrats on the issues -- we've been saying here a lot. that the debate would be better. if -- >> well, i, i usually agree with tom. i disagree with this. >> what do you disagree with? >> well, you can say the same thing about the democratic

party. they've been extreme on social issues over the past week and a half. they're not talking about medicare or medicaid or social security entitlement reform. they are a collection of special interest groups cobbled together. you can see that where you had one special interest group take the president over the cliff over this catholic hhs decision. but it all starts at the top. barack obama works for the democratic party because he can pull all of these different special interest groups together. and the republican party has three legs. it's got a libertarian wing, it's got a social conservative wing, and it's got an economic wing. and if you have one person in the middle that can pull all that together then you've got a coherent strategy and you've got a strong party. the problem with this republican party is they don't have that

guy. like jeb bush. if he were running, i hate to keep going back to jeb bush, but if jeb bush were running, you've got a guy with libertarian leanings, but he's pro-business and also a social conservative. suddenly the republican party would look very coherent, very measured, and very mainstream. >> he's also got very open views on immigration and very open views on educational reform. he could actually put together, forge a fairly broad coalition. i think the challenge for the mitt romneys and rick santorums is whether any of them are up to that and it's not clear. >> and jim cramer, business leaders i find really like mitt romney a lot and they get him. but they're alone. >> well, business leaders see that he created some companies, business leaders recognized that he would encourage hiring. but i've got to tell you, no one's as enthusiastic as i thought they'd be. >> in the business community? >> no, they used to be, but now they feel, it's a social issue thing, we don't care about that, some of our wives, husbands care about social issues.

that's not the focus. the focus is job creation. what happened to that debate? what happened to it? i don't know. therest a lot of jobs to be created if you have a terrific way to be able to be pro-business. not be deluded by this. >> introducing a budget today that is going to have some big concepts in terms of job creating and investment in manufacturing research. >> unemployment, can't get unemployment under 8%. >> come on, we're over $1 trillion again this year. >> you want to create jobs and not spend a penny and not tax the rich. >> there's a difference between not spending a penny and running up $1.35 trillion deficits for yet another year. it's so rude and it hurts me, willie, she always talks over me. >> huge banking agreement last week -- >> reagan raised taxes and no one remembers that. it was better times for deficit reduction. please. >> i wish we'd just listen to each other.

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guess what. halftime's over. we're in the third quarter now, america, and we're way behind. so i don't care if obama runs the ball or romney throws a touchdown or ron paul kicks a field goal with his tiny little chicken legs.

i'll tell you right now, though, i ain't putting santorum in the game. he can stand on the sideline doing cheers in his little sweater vests. what's this commercial for again? oh, right, chrysler. get a chrysler and get off my damn lawn. >> oh, my god. i love it. >> you've got to watch the whole thing. bill hader doing clint eastwood on snl. you would love in particular. >> the ad -- >> what's this an ad for? >> you acted like it was a religious experience. my god, it was -- what else do you expect? >> because i love america. >> yeah. >> chrysler coming on. chrysler taking big share from ford and gm. the dealerships are filled, the numbers for chrysler are off the charts. >> hash tag, willie, winning. >> i love it. last night were the grammys, we talked briefly about it at the top of the show. whitney houston's death saturday

afternoon in a hotel room cast a shadow over the event. l.l. cool j. began the ceremony with a prayer saying there was a death in the family and the mighty task was given to jennifer hudson to pay tribute with her voice. >> although she was gone too soon -- ♪ and i will always love you ♪ i will always love you >> it was good. >> it was a night of tributes to whitney houston all the way through. most of the artists who got on stage said something about houston, the star of the night, though, was adele. she recently underwent vocal chord surgery. last night her first public performance in five months. she sang her hit rolling in the deep. the 23-year-old won all six

grammys for which she was nominated. album of the year, record of the year, song of the year. foo fighters won five awards. >> all right. >> kanye west won four. here is adele after winning the final award of the night, album of the year. >> thank you so much. thank you. this record is inspired by something that is really normal when everyone's been through it. just a rubbish relationship. and it's gone on to do things that i can't tell you that how i feel about it. it's been the most life changing year. and i want to thank my record companies, columbia records and xl records and -- oh, i've got a bit of snot. and my mom and everyone, thank you so much. and all of you, thank you so much. >> you asked about the man -- he

got engaged, the guy that the album was about, but she's now dating a guy. so she's in love. >> you don't want her to get too happy. >> no, no -- >> if he dumps her, she gets six more grammys. that's pretty good. >> keep the train rolling. >> keep -- >> peggy noonan's coming up next. also e.j. dionne. "morning joe" coming right back. [ male announcer ] if you believe the mayan calendar, on december 21st, polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space, which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd and you still need to retire, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans?

finally, senator, you know,

i'm sure like me you get offended when people say that washington is not cool. and doesn't have a fashion sense because at this conservative gathering, look what i've found. if you've contributed nothing else to this campaign, you have brought back the sweater vest. and here is a rick santorum sweater vest that will certainly endure whatever the results of this campaign. true enough? >> well, i hope so. i mean, you know people have referred to me as the ritchie cunningham candidate. a little bit too clean and upstanding. but you know what? contrasting that with what's going on out there in the popular culture, a little bit of ritchie cunningham wouldn't be a bad thing for our society right now. >> welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour. a live look at the white house. jon meacham and jim cramer still with us. and joining the table, columnist for the "wall street journal" peggy noonan. great to have have you back on the show. and in washington, columnist for

the washington post e.j. dionne. great table we have. >> good to be with you. >> great to have you all around. let's dive right in. yesterday we were on "meet the press" talking about -- by the way, tom brokaw's mike's on. >> he's on deck. >> we could listen to his -- >> we want to save tom from -- the call to his bookky. anyway, e.j., with business taken care of. i still hear that low baritone voice, take tom's mike down. e.j., let's now after the second attempt move to what we were talking about yesterday and that is something you wrote a column about, contraception and the cost of culture -- >> yeah, let me read a section of it, e.j., if i could. what bothers liberal catholics about arguments advanced by some of our liberal friends is the catholic right seems to eager to focus the church's witness to

the world on issues such as stem cell research and now perhaps contraception that they would effectively if not necessarily intentionally relegate the social justice work and teaching to second-class status. >> so a lot to talk about there. and i would love, love to get into that. and what we around the table call matthew 25 christians in a minute. first, let's go to back to friday. you were along with sister carol and other catholics against the white house's contraception hhs ruling, but you think the president did the right thing and did enough to move beyond this issue. tell us why. >> well, i do, and by the way, that's david gregory doing his great tom brokaw imitation. >> he does a good one. >> the -- we progressive catholics, like conservative catholics were upset about the original rule because it didn't give any leeway to all of the catholic groups that do amazing work around the country.

catholic charities, the catholic hospitals, people work with immigrants or inner city school kids. and the original world basically said this is not really religious activity so there's no exemption. well, for goodness sake, all of these people are doing this work because they are inspired by the gospel. so we were very critical of the president. but there are two legitimate issues here. one is the desire of the administration and i think most americans to make sure that health care plans cover contraception. that's a legitimate goal. the other is how do you get that coverage to them without forcing religious institutions, notably catholic ones not to have to violate their consciences, their church teachings by financing something they think is morally wrong. i was for this compromise originally. this was first floated by a colleague of mine at the

brookings institution last october where you were trying to find this balance. and i think it was the right balance to strike. and i hope my more conservative catholic friends look at this experience and say, okay, my word, the church has a lot of support of both outside and inside because of all this extraordinary social justice work it does. let's talk a little more about that and not have people think that the only thing roman canwm catholicism cares about is abortion and contraception. >> is it safe to say that to characterize your view on this controversy is to say that last week this was a freedom of religion issue, but this week it's more about contraception? >> right. i do think politically that's true, and to the extent -- and we agreed on this yesterday morning that if it's fight about religious freedom, the administration was very vulnerable, now that it's about contraception, i think those who

oppose the spread of contraception, i guess that includes my church, are on the vulnerable political side. but we'll still have arguments about religious freedom. i mean, the problem with balancing, which is what you need to do is that a given balance is never enough for one side or the other. i think this one strikes it pretty well. and if groups like the catholic health association and catholic charities who are the groups in the trenches say this is sufficient, i think we should -- we can say, yeah, this is probably sufficient. >> so peggy, the president was in a tough spot last week because going back to ghostbusters, dogs and cats were living together and e.j. dionne and peggy noonan were on the same side. i take it we can all sleep comfortably tonight knowing that dogs and cats are now segregated and you and e.j. disagree with each other. >> no, no, no, no -- division is not the desired state, first of

all. e.j. and i would agree that sometimes we agree on very big essential things. we would also agree that it was really a relief the past three weeks to have conservative catholics, liberal catholics, progressive, catholics in the middle, all agreeing on one thing. it was so -- >> doesn't happen often. >> no, it was beautiful. now, look, we have survived as a church 2,000 years disagreeing on things. we've always had internal wars, they'll continue. i'm not a sanguine as e.j. is about the president's solution to the problem. i think what the president did on friday was come forward with more, frankly, an attempt to put out the fires that he had started. therefore it was a political solution. in a practical way, i'm not sure how it works.

i think what we're saying here, what the president is saying is, well, the church will still have its insurance policies and the insurance policies will for free pay for sterilization procedures and contraceptives. a number of people thought about that for 24 hours and said, but insurance companies don't really pay for things for free. what they do is pass on the cost to the premium payer which is the church. so this argument i think will continue, though i suspect it'll continue legislatively and in the courts. >> can i ask e.j. a quick question on this point? >> yeah. >> it really is, e.j., a distinction without a difference for a lot of us. but let's talk about one particularly troubling part of this compromise that may not cover -- and we talked about it briefly yesterday morning off camera. what does a large catholic

hospital do that self-insures? so what's the solution to that under the new obama framework? >> first of all, that's -- i think that's exactly the right question. and by the way, i enjoyed agreeing with peggy noonan, and i do think it was a wonderful moment where a lot of catholics discovered that they actually had areas of agreement they didn't realize they had. and it was inspired, i think, by a lot of this good work the church actually does if you don't pay enough attention to. but i think this is the problem. the administration gave assurances that they have a work around that will put them in a position where they don't have to pay. i have not seen this. i'm not sure it's fully worked out. but i do think that as a practical matter, they will have to take care of that problem or else this compromise doesn't work. >> so -- >> it'll blow up again.

>> well, you wrote -- >> i don't think it will. i think they do have the solution. >> we'll see. >> you wrote the white house really stepped in it and this was giving the republicans a huge bat. >> right. >> and yet you yesterday were saying not necessarily. and so what really happened here? >> well, the white house did step in it. they made a terrible political mistake. they had warning and they dismissed the warning. and the last thing you want to do is allow the catholic church to be united against you. it's a bad thing. my warning is moving forward. because, listen, like i said last week, most of us around the table we talk about debt, we talk about foreign policy, iraq, we don't get engaged in the social issues because there's usually more -- >> there's no end. >> there's usually more heat than light. and i think like most americans, they saw the president go out on friday, he did a compromise, the catholic church is now back to fighting with each other. and i think for the president, i

think most americans will say, okay, he took care of that, let's move on to the debt, to other things. so my warning last week was to the obama administration. this week it is to the republicans. and the republicans in the ho e house, they need to be very careful about how they push forward on this issue because if it stops being about freedom of religion -- >> right. >> and starts being about contraception, then republicans will get routed in swing areas like as i always say the i-4 corridor, bucks county, pennsylvania, the suburbs of pennsylvania. you -- >> would you agree with that? because it seemed pretty black and white to you. >> let me ask you a question, do you believe that at this point of this struggle, the white house and the national abortion action rights league and planned parenthood have decided that mischievously and for political gain they will put this whole

issue forward as simply a disagreement on contraception. the catholic church is trying to take your contraception away from you, those bad men are trying to mess up with your contraception. now, that is not what this issue is about. it is not what the struggle aha been about. i think you are suggesting, tell me if i'm wrong, that the administration is going to muck up the waters in that way. >> i don't think they're going to muck up the water. i think they believe they have struck a compromise, e.j. believes it, sister carol with catholic health care association believes it. they believe that they have now stopped catholic institutions from having to pay directly for contraception. >> is it okay that they have to pay indirectly for contraception? does that really solve the problem? >> and that's what i'm saying, peggy. it is a distinction without a

difference, but i'm not talking about what's right or wrong any more than i was last week. >> perception. >> i'm a southern baptist, e.j., that has always supported contraception. i'm a big believer in it. i'm just talking the politics of it. if it becomes framed, politically, about contraception, which i think we're now into that realm, this is where i think republicans and conservative democrats could lose. >> yeah, i think you're right on the politics. just a small, but i think important point, these health care policies aren't owned by the employers or aren't just owned by the employers. the individual gets covered pays a chunk of this and increasingly big chunk of this too. and i think we do have to recognize wherever we stand on this that the individual policy holder has to have some rights here. we shouldn't just say it's all about the employer. on the politics of this, i think that the obama administration will make another mistake if it looks at the bishops as this big

body that's all united around one position and is determined to despise the obama administration. i think there are bishops who are actually very conservative and really do want to defeat president obama although they wouldn't put it that way. i think there are other bishops who look at this and are prepared to say, wait a minute, we don't want this particular fight with president obama. we work with the administration on other things, and i think you're going to see in the next week a very interesting discussion among bishops. it won't be a split, exactly. i think it'll be bishops who say, yes, we need to press ahead to get certain additional protections but we shouldn't turn this into a massive fight and fight for things like giving employers the right on their own conscience to pull out of covering contraception. there are limits to what they can win. and i think a lot of bishops

know that. >> and just -- i want to put a period on the end of my thoughts with peggy. the bottom line is that this change, peggy, i don't want to confuse you or anybody else, it is, again, a distinction without a difference. and i would believe if you just looking at it logically this could be even more offensive to catholics because what you're doing is spreading the burden to all catholics because now all catholics are paying higher premiums, even if it's slight, but if they do cost -- if contraceptions do cost on average $600 per year per woman, that's not being absorbed by the insurance companies, it's absorbed by everybody. that's the reality. i'm talking the politics of it. >> contraceptives save the insurance companies money because it's cheaper than covering pregnancy and childbirth. >> there's no doubt about that. i'm not talking the economics of it. i'm talking if you strip it down. >> they're going to pass it on

to everybody. >> the reality, they will. so jim cramer, we haven't talked to you this block because we're talking about social issues, which brings me to a problem for republicans. i starting in 2009 had people coming on this set business leaders who had never voted republican saying i'm just looking for a republican to write a check to. >> i'm glad you -- >> and to finish the point, the more the discussion is around social issues like this, the more the social divide between republicans and wall street grows. so they're pushed back into the arms of barack obama. >> this is -- look, i think the debate is a fabulous one to have, but it has completely taken away from the fact that we are really going to have a hard time hiring once this plan is put in place. i've had a couple of ceos come on just in the last few weeks. when you talk about whether they want to hire, this is what they bring up.

chipotle, look, use this as maybe one of the great job creators in this country and they pay a lot for their people. this is a company that is very forward. i ask them, what does obama care do for you? well, nothing we hope because the supreme court has got to say no to it. i mean, this is at the front and center of what could derail the economy. >> you're talking about health care reform? >> health care reform in general. >> i'm just saying, look, the issue, front and center, i want church and state separation, but what i want doesn't matter as much as what i'm telling you. business leaders fear this more than anything, they don't want to hire, this is part of the underground economy that will develop because no one wants people on the books because of obama care and this is a front and center issue for every ceo i deal with and another reason they don't want to hire here, they want to hire there. they want to put the jobs in asia, in mexico because they don't want to think about how much more it's going to cost to hire a new person. don't lose that debate. that is a major debate for the economy. >> except that the republican

presidential candidate potentially the nominee has kind of the same problem on this issue, doesn't he? mitt romney? i'm just saying. >> i don't know, did he enact a health care plan when he was governor? >> i think he might have. >> and by the way -- >> but underlying the point that peggy said yesterday, peggy you said at the end of the day, this hhs controversy may be remembered because it reignites the debate over obama care as republicans -- >> i sure hope so. >> and forgive me, government fecklessness with regard to how it chooses to interpret the various parts and complexities of obama care. the president pulled this out of his ear in the past month, oh, this is how we're going to do it with the catholic church. what businessmen fear is he's going to pull something else out of his ear from -- >> okay. >> his ear -- >> let's go to e.j. for the last word, and e.j., what do you think the president is going to pull out of his ear?

>> well, i just want to say if we live in an economy where giving people health coverage becomes a problem and people won't hire anymore, we've got a problem with the economy. the logic of what jim said is we'll have to move from obama care to single payer and get it off the employer altogether. i think obama care may be less of a burden on employers in the long run. >> and, e.j., really quickly, do you think it's a big political issue going into the fall? or do you think -- >> health care in general? >> yeah, the general. >> it doesn't look it now, but i think the president's going to have to defend this health plan and not just let it sit there. and i think it is a defensible health plan. >> e.j. dionne, thank you so much. >> so good to be with you. >> good to have you on. >> republican congressman jeff flake of arizona later this morning. and up next, nbc's tom brokaw joins us here onset. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. uh oh.

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the straw polls at cpac, as you know for years ron paul has won that because he pays for their ticket, they come in and vote and leave. we didn't do that, we don't do that. i don't try to rig straw polls -- >> do you think -- >> i know -- >> do you think governor romney rigged it? >> i'm happy at the announcement. >> well, you'll have to talk to the romney campaign and we've heard all sorts of things. >> welcome back. here with us now, nbc news' tom brokaw along with richard haass and peggy noonan at the table. shall we move on from hhs? >> no. >> i do want to ask you about

your choice of words, mischievous. come on, peggy. >> what -- >> no, i would never accuse you of that. but -- >> i don't understand mischief. >> what? >> it is political mischief. >> what? >> when you take -- >> trying to get -- >> when you take a serious political issue and put it forward, break it apart in a way that is not true that may excite people who you think deep in your heart are sort of uninformed. >> okay. >> and that -- if the white house is turning this into an argument about contraception so that normal people who -- let's admit it, listen to the news peripherally and have real lives and are not necessarily engaged by the news. if they start to think, wait a second, a bunch of creepy people are moving against my rights to go to cvs and get

contraceptives? if that's what joe is saying they mean to do, that is sheer mischief. if it is not what they mean to do, fine. >> tom, let me bring you in. unfortunately with these type of debates, and i've just got a politico morning score just came across my e-mail. and it says that taking out $250,000 in advertising saying republicans want to take away your contraception rights and they're, of course, running in florida and denver and then on the right you have full-page ads taken out by conservative activists. and as "politico" says, this pays. in this political culture, this type of division pays for both sides. pays politically and economically for both sides. >> true. a lot of people make a lot of money on this. >> you mean it pays in terms of

return to the organization? >> to the organization. >> yeah. i think this is a very complex issue, actually. and one of the things i was thinking this morning is, address the church side, the conference of bishops obviously do not reflect, although they reflect perfectly church dogma, then they have their flock, which has an entirely different feeling about the place of contraception as a moral issue. >> i have to tell you, this is not about contraception. a, it is about religious freedom, but, b, the very specific issue it's about is contraceptives, abortion indu inducing drugs and sterilization procedures. now, that's big. do you know what i mean? and that's essential. and all of these issues flow not out of church dogma, but out of the deepest church's beliefs about the sanctity and meaning of life and man's relationship with god. you can agree with it or

disagree with it, but it is what the church is about. and i believe the church is -- churches ought to be given plenty of space on that. sorry. >> isn't it fair to say that what you just raised is a subject of deep and complex dialogue within the church itself about the very issues you have just raised? >> oh, yes, my goodness, we've been fighting about it for at least 60 years. i must say, oh, my goodness i agree. the last time i heard a catholic of high standing speak about the use of contraceptives in public, it was mother teresa about 1995 at the national prayer breakfast and the room was dumbfounded. nobody within the church ever speaks of it because it's an argument. >> the thing is, peggy, the reality is, this is past -- and again, i know -- liberals were angry with me last week. >> now conservatives -- >> conservatives will be angry

with me. last week i gave the liberals the bad news, this week it's about contraception, and you can fight it as long as you want, you can explain it as long as you want, but unless the supreme court overturns this, and they may, you're going to lose. politically it's a loser. so let's go to greece. >> good. >> which is another -- >> they are out in the street in greece and it doesn't -- we keep hearing that austerity measures are going to be passing and then they get passed and then the streets -- >> i want to bring this back to the budget proposal today and how we look ahead here in this country, but first -- >> let's talk about greece, but also, richard, you said something very frightening. you said the united states of america could be greece next year. tell us why. >> well, what's likely to happen is europe is going to work this out. greece and probably portugal will have to leave the euro zone. and at some point, the euro will get stabilized, and the moment the euro gets stabilized, the world will look for another

currency to beat up on. it could well be the dollar. as you said before, i think the zero chance this year we're going to make any progress on our economic situation on the basics of our budget. and i think what's going to happen in 2013, we're going to wake up, whoever's president, whoever's in congress, and for the first time there's clear evidence that nothing has really changed, we still are not prepared to address the basics of our financial situation, that against the backdrop of a slightly more stable euro, i think means the world markets could begin to move against the dollar. so i think we're probably okay in 2012, the world will give us a pass, the focus will be on greece and portugal and i don't think they're going to make it ultimately. the question is how orderly their removal is. but 2013 comes, that would be the moment of truth for the dollar and the u.s. economy. >> we're going to get hammered. >> which brings us to this morning the president will be releasing his budget. some of the points were released on friday. will anything happen with this, tom brokaw?

>> no, i don't think so. this is a political statement as much as it is a budget statement. to set the course for the fall. and by the way, what richard just said with great clarity of what could possibly happen in 2013, this is part of the reason there's so much anxiety in america. they're looking at the scenes today in greece and saying so if they've got the flu, why am i in danger of getting pneumonia here? that has driven a lot of people not just out of their comfort zone, but what would normally be their own political interests. i think part of the reason -- >> tom, don't you think, you remember '92. ross perot saw an opening when our deficits were only $250 billion, saw an opening and exploited it. if he'd run a more disciplined campaign, who knows, maybe he could have been the first independent president. why isn't there anybody on the right or the left had the courage to tackle this debt issue? >> well, one of the people that does do it is ron paul and he

has a very much smaller, but dedicated following in south carolina. i went to a ron paul debate party one night at a sports bar and i came home and said then. i get it, you know, if i were one of those people, i'd be for ron paul, as well. they were forklift drivers -- they read everything they could about what was going on, and when he said, for example, why are we building an embassy the size of the taj ma hall in baghdad, i would have felt the same way. i feel the same way where i am when i go to baghdad and see that embassy and kabul, the embassy that is larger than alcatraz. and it's ripping through the american political culture at the moment. and there's no one giving voice to it beyond someone like ron paul. there is not a ross perot. if ross perot had not had those

fbi agents at his daughter's wedding, who knows where he would've gone. >> and the black panthers trying to climb over the fence and kidnap him. >> and both time you had people outside the mainstream with ross perot and ron paul. but the main issue. >> by the way -- >> unfair. >> by the way, he said it, not me. >> i love ron paul and ross perot. >> it's unfair, but let me make a point. you had someone who isn't mainstream trying to connect the dots about an overextended foreign policy, a country not willing to deal with the deficit and debt and no one's talking about economic growth. and what we need is someone who is mainstream who is going to connect those dots. unless we get that right, we are headed for extraordinary -- >> i heard that message at cpac. richard haass, thank you. have you heard from a certain network president who you e-mailed who owes me money? >> i will -- >> check your blackberry, i'm expecting it. tom brokaw, stay with us, "morning joe" will be right

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the all-new 2013 lexus gs. there's no going back. ♪ i am not convinced, and i don't think that the majority of gop and independent voters are convinced. and that is why you don't see romney get over that hump. he's still in the 30 percentile mark when it comes to approval and primary wins and caucus wins. he still hasn't risen above that yet because we are not convinced. >> but, governor, he's been running for five years. >> and he has spent millions and millions and millions -- >> what does he have to do to convince you? >> he still needs to be able to articulate what his solutions are to the challenges facing america, but not just mitt, all four of them.

>> all right. here with us now, republican representative from arizona and supporter of the romney campaign congressman. >> does that mean you're severely conservative? >> what's the level of severity? >> i heard yesterday somebody compare -- using the year severe for a head wound. >> exactly. i'm not exactly sure what that means. it's very curious you supporting mitt romney because mitt is known by some as a big-government republican. you, of course, one of the true believers as far as whether republicans' president or democrats' president, you always held to your beliefs of small government. why are you supporting romney? >> well, when you look at his record, it's a conservative record. say what you want about his statements here or there or a campaign, you look where he governed. i think that's the best gauge. >> does romney care bother you? >> that's a concern.

obviously, i don't like obama care, but he's right when he says this is a state issue. >> tom? >> i thought rick santorum was at his most effective when he pinned governor romney in the debate in florida. right? mandated health care. isn't that going to be an issue for the governor going forward because that one he couldn't wiggle out of? in fact, that is objectively a major part of the health care plan that he passed in massachusetts. >> i think it's been considered and done. this has been raised for years. and to the extent that it's an issue, it's been an issue, and i don't think it'll be an issue moving ahead any more than it has been. >> let me ask you about the cpac vote. how much of that was a tribute to what they thought were his conservative credentials? and how much of it was driven by the fact that we've got to find somebody who can beat obama in the fall? how much of it was electability? >> both. most people at cpac, subscribe to the old buckley notion that

you elect the -- you nominate the most conservative person who can win. and so that certainly plays a factor. but like i said when you look at how he actually governed, that's what you look at. and he governed in a conservative fashion. >> what is the downside of rick santorum when it comes to governing? >> well, that he hasn't had executive experience. and i think people do get concerned when they look at the last race that he ran. and the margin that he lost by. i think that's a concern. and then when you look at when he was in office, voted for the prescription drug benefit. voted for bloated farm bills, bloated transportation bills. that's tough to point to that record and say that's more conservative than maybe mitt romney governed in massachusetts. >> senator, how worried are you right now when mitt romney is no longer considered the inevitable, i guess?

how worried are you that his campaign and his candidacy may be in trouble? and what do you think of all criticism that has gone his way with regard to, oh, you don't speak enough from your heart, you're not detailed enough, you're not this enough, you're not that enough? there's been a lot of rhetorical advice for him. what do you think of it? >> well, when you know him pe personally, his family and that role, i think a lot of that goes away, as well. people say he's not passionate about anything. baloney, look at his family, his faith, the way he's governed, the way he's lived his life. and when you look at that, and i think people take that into account, they certainly are in, arizona, where he will be tonight. and we will have a debate, i believe, and the primaries there. >> how concerned are you about his prospects? >> no, i'm not. i think he'll pick up -- he picked up momentum last week with the cpac vote, in maine,

that will roll into arizona and michigan and super tuesday. obviously it's taken longer than a lot of us would like, but that's the process. and he'll be better able to handle the general then. >> jeff, let's talk about from republican politics to the budget, what's your take on it? >> well, i wish we'd have a real budget that takes into account the problems we have with entitlement programs and discretionary spending. we were headed toward a fiscal cliff long before barack obama took the wheel. let's get that straight. we didn't govern well as republicans when we controlled both chambers in the white house. the difficulty we had as republicans was to convince people we'll be better than they are and that we'll be better than we were. >> can you argue it might be difficult to do that with mitt romney? >> no, no, like i said. look at massachusetts, look at what he did there. balance budgets and everything else. and you see a conservative governance there.

and compare that to the president and the president who has said, you know, within -- after the next four years we will have the deficit -- look at it now, we're projecting $1.3 trillion again. >> for the fourth year in a row. richard haass came on earlier and said something you would usually expect from a fiery republican stump speech. and he said the united states next year is going to be in the position that greece is in this year. >> that's right. >> is that your concern? >> yes, it is. and just this week they're trying to wrap up the payroll tax cut thing. we shouldn't being having a payroll tax cut. we shouldn't have done it a year ago. if we don't have the courage to reform the entitlements -- i expect it to be grover norquist to say you had a tax cut last year, you've got to renew it. it was actually the president who said that. it's all -- republican or

democrat, we aren't serious enough about this deficit and debt. and we are going to be in a position where we're going to have a treasury auction at some point and have no takers for debt. >> just before we go to a break, one quick question, should we revive simpson/bowles, put it back on the table? >> we should. we should. now, the problem with simpson/bowles, it really didn't address the main driver of our debt, which is medicare spending. but on the revenue side, it had some very -- i'm sorry, on the tax side and the overall rate, broaden the base, that's republican orthodoxy, yes. >> congressman jeff flake, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> thanks for having me here. up next, here it goes. >> serious controversy coming out of europe. we'll talk about it. >> you're watching "morning joe." >> and you couldn't care less, could you? >> no, i think it's fascinating.

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>> absolutely stunning from

dempsey. dempsey ripped it into the roof of the net! >> that was american dempsey. we americans can play the beautiful game. even in the top league. that was absolutely beautiful. with us now is the host of soccer showman. a lot of great football this weekend in new england. only one issue being talked about. the handshake that wasn't after a nine-game ban because of racist comments. refuses to shake the hand of the man -- >> his nemesis. >> his nemesis that he slurred. fights broke out in the tunnel. and right now you have -- >> chances are good their coach, who was a legend there is not

going to survive. >> this was a horrible point for soccer. a big talking point before the ball had been kicked. a moment so toxic that it did the impossible. it made me support manchester united and made them look like the good guys. >> let me just say, the most e hated team in all of soccer but everyone was rooting for manchester because of this ugly incident. >> manchester united held on. i think society's moral fabric rang just a bit during the 90 minutes of that game. >> i haven't talked to the guys about this incident at all. i haven't talked to them.

they bought liverpool because it was consider one of the great brands in world sports. >> absolutely. very akin to the red sox which is underachieved and failed to win after years of glory. >> now in a huge market opening up in asia, but now racism sort of clouds the entire brand. they're going to have to get rid of their coach or somebody. >> liverpool is a city where the football team is given some of the greatest moments in the history of the city. it's also given it some of the darkest moments. i have to say red sox ownership this weekend john henry behind the scenes has made doug apologize which he's never done before. we'll see. the communications teams are kicking in. if they can clean this up, it would be amazing. >> why wouldn't he shake his hand there? >> the other gentleman is no angel. he was making a statement. he was seeing narrative as

conflict between rivalry of manchester united and liverpool that he pushed people toward manchester united and looked terrible. >> can i make one observation for the audience. >> or you can be like me and -- >> unfortunately the translation is in latin. >> let's move on. we now have bored everybody. miserable everton beat chelsea. held together by scott tape and gloves and discarded bubble gum. it was the american on a two-month loan that created this

with an assist. seven in two months. they love him not just because he's been spectacular but because he gave up a chance to be on the beach in california for two months and chose to freeze in everton. they may rise again. >> only you and me care. >> piers morgan too. >> thank you so much. >> tom brokaw, thank you as well. >> thank you for the guidance to channel 122. >> my wife loves that channel. >> the conversation keeps going on "morning joe." tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about fees.

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>> it was a leading indicator of what liberals are trying to do across the country. i fought. i was a severely conservative republican governor. [ applause ] i understand that battles we as conservatives must fight because i've been on the front lines and expect to be on those front lines again. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at manhattan. what a beautiful day. >> it's gorgeous. willie and i are going to go out skiing later. >> all right. back with us on set, jim cramer

and john meacham. >> a lot going on over the weekend. >> ever talking about the death of whitney houston. >> unfortunately a very difficult decline. adele last night at the grammys -- >> she won six. >> she's my daughter's favorite. i think she's fantastic. >> in an age of phony pop stars, looking like supermodels and boobs and dresses, she's wildly talented. she gets up there and sings. >> speaking of john meacham, always stuffing things into things. >> what? >> what about use of severely by john meacham's favorite candidate, mitt romney. he's mr. adverb. he's taken the adverb of -- >> he has absorbed -- when you listen to newt gingrich, which everyone should do, you have

made this point too where everything is frankly candidly and so now we have severely and adverbs i think and here's a way to start your week, adverbs -- you're protesting too much when you are sort of fighting to modify the verb. if you are conservative, you can say that. >> we have mitt romney who won the straw poll. so rick santorum saying that he rigged it. >> maine. >> he had ron paul saying he rigged it there. the biggest headline that will come out the first two days of this week, the political world is you're going to have a new set of polls coming out that will probably show mitt romney losing in his home state of michigan to rick santorum. polls coming out later on today that will show or tomorrow show

actually a big rick santorum lead. the bleeding has begun. the question is whether he'll stop it or not. today the president puts out his budget. >> he does. at 11:00 this morning. president obama will put forward his budget for the next fiscal year. this budget will shape the political fight ahead for the presidential election. he's expected to offer in his budget balance of long-term deficit reduction and short-term stimulus measures aimed at tackling the nation's mounting $15 trillion debt while keeping the economic recovery afloat. >> jim, i look at this as a conservative and all i see is a lot of spending. we have another year with another trillion dollar deficit when we were told originally it would go down into triple digits. that's not happening. and some economists believe that's actually the wise move. what do you think? >> we're still at the beginning of the recovery. the recovery is gaining steam.

i know ben bernanke said we cannot let this go back, slip back to the way it was. bernanke is deeply rooted in 1937. he remembers when you had a recovery and then the recovery died. i don't think the spending is wrong. i do think revenue increases simply never get passed. >> look at specifics for nearly $4 trillion in deficit reduction over the next decade. with much of the savings coming from expiration of the bush tax cuts ending of the wars in iraq and afghanistan, cost cutting measures applied to medicare and medicaid and tax increases for the richest americans. the president predicts that there will be a $1.33 trillion shortfall or 8.5% of gdp for this year marking the fourth straight year of trillion dollar deficits. >> the numbers are historic. we are four years out from the 2008 collapse and we're still

running deficits of over a trillion dollars. to put that into perspective for the first 200 years of this country's existence, we didn't accumulate a trillion dollars in debt. for 200 years. now we're accumulating it every year. i wrote a book in 2004 attacking george w. bush for his massive deficits because they were creeping up on $400 billion. now, i ran for congress for the first time because bill clinton and george h.w. bush were allowing deficits to go over $250 billion. now a trillion dollars every year while we look in the streets of greece and see where this is going. >> that's the other big story. >> historical trend line here and it doesn't look good for us and we're still putting budgets out with trillion dollars plus deficits. >> it's the great question of imperial decline. are we rome? and if so, have we now overstretched ourselves so much financially and then militarily

obviously which has a connection there that when you look back, say at a century's distance, people will say how could you not have seen this coming. you know, you can always -- hindsight is wonderful. >> if you are writing a book about the decline, you can see that. if you are writing a book about western democracy's decline, you can see that since world war ii. expansive welfare states. we kept promising money to citizens that we didn't have and we refused to pay for it. people believe if you pay for all of that welfare state, you're going to basically kill the golden goose. >> that's what's frustrating a lot of people. not just republicans. again, this does not tackle the big questions. the long-term questions.

we're going to have a fight against over extension of the payroll tax cuts. a fight we just had two months ago. at the end of this year we'll have a fight over extension of the bush tax cuts. fights over small battles and we're not doing the war, which is really debt and deficit reduction. i want to ask cramer. the white house says this is no time for austerity. we can't get into medicare and that right now. do you agree with that and if not when is a good time? >> there's two kinds of austerity. there's longer term which everyone admits is time except for the white house. we could put through some things throughout 10 or 15 years that would help. we're getting reprieve because long-term bonds are at 3%. once they're done wrecking europe, they're going to come after us, our rates are going to spike and whatever recovery we have will be muted by the fact that interest rates will go higher. we have a window to do something

right and we're not taking it. >> to talk about medicare and social security reform over the next 25, 30, 40 years saying that's austerity, that's not austerity. it's very simple. if you're the president, you say i'll take care of medicaid and medicare before right now. if you are born before 1960, do whatever do you because this doesn't involve you. if you were born in the 1960s, you're going to get your medicare and medicaid benefits when you're 67. if you were born in 1970 or later, you're going to get it when you're 70. end of conversation. we're going to cap the increases for medicare and medicaid at 4%. and now everybody go and by the way, that will not impact the economy now for the next 15, 20, 30 years. >> i can't argue with that. >> it's a copout to say we can't address social security and

medicare. and just to make a bigger point about this, mika. if you do that, jim cramer, the world markets do what? they respond by saying, safe bet long-term united states of america, let's dump all of our cash there because europe is going under and china is about to flat line. >> the united states has an opportunity to become the place to invest in. if they know long-term our dollar is going to be worth something. i'm not a strong dollar guy. i want the dollar to not go down. the way to address it is long-term. short-term we're fine. you know that because of the 30-year bond and 20-year bond. it tells you that we're fine. long-term we could be terrible. you mention greece. this is where greece went wrong. it went wrong 10, 15 years ago. they hid what was happening. we still have a chance. we have to take it.

>> show me greece and we can talk about this. greek lawmakers approved plan that triggered the worst rioting in years. the deal would slash $4 billion from the budget and call for a harsh pension cuts and elimination of 15,000 jobs. it paves the way for greece to receive loans from foreign leaders. violence erupted in seven cities including the capital of athens where more than 120 people were hurt. despite the bailout, some european leaders are still questioning whether greece can recover from its devastating recession. >> john meacham, you look, these are warning signs. you look at exotic places like greece, italy, california. i mean, sacramento. all of those foreign countries. again, it's the same formula. promise too much and welfare state benefits and just wait for the economy to meltdown.

>> i think to my mind that's the great political cultural hurdle we have to get over. you go from democracy to an important piece in "the new york times" about how government is not just about poor people. the middle class that is dependent in many ways -- >> that was a great piece. the very people that say we don't want the government involved in health care are the very people who say don't touch my medicare. the very tea party activists who say washington has gotten too big and too involved, there was a poll we showed earlier this year that says it all. 70% of tea party activists say don't touch medicare when there is not a republican or democrat liberal conservative economist that won't tell you that medicare and medicaid spending over the next 30 years is what blows a hole in the national debt. >> that's the political and cultural reality. it's been almost 20 years since

jonathan raush wrote this book. everyone had a stake in the status quo. everybody. it is not something that's changed. and that's why i know it's like a drinking game at this point. simpson-bowles, that's why you had a commission. >> something else to watch. the birth rate in this country. minus 3.7%. we had a demographic shift. we saw what happened in japan. japan is bankrupt. no one is talk about. gdp numbers out last night, their economy is in severe decline. there's just no children being born there. no one is going to be paying for the elderly. >> same thing with italy. you know, willie, you were talking about the budget and -- >> as you always do. >> he keeps bringing it up. >> you're going to have the

president. he put his budget out. it's really talking past republicans. you've got democrats in the senate who are going to go another 1,000 days without having the courage to put out a budget and then you have the republicans in the house that are going to pass a budget that's going to talk right past the president. you're going to have these lobbies back and forth and nobody is going to get together. >> these are core questions. as cramer said, republicans said we won't do new taxes. $1.5 trillion of new taxes in the president's budget. he doesn't want to extend bush tax cuts any further. those are issues we can't get past and no reason to believe we'll get past them this time. >> and the democrats aren't talking about entitlement reform. there are two big things that will happen but they'll happen after the election. one is expiration of the bush tax cuts and by the way, republicans have to go to the president to get something done on that. if he doesn't sign it, they expire. on the other end, they have to

raise the debt ceiling again and there the president is going to have to go to the republicans who will not want to raise the debt ceiling. and so sadly, mika, it looks like we'll have to get through another election year without any real movement on the budget, on the deficit, on taking care of long-term debt. >> long-term health of this country. up next, the new issue of "town and country" magazine takes an inside look at what's considered the wealthiest sector of the greek society and are they capable of making the kind of investment that could save their country and westminister dog show kicks off tonight. >> i love that. >> we'll bring in the man who has hosted the show for the past two decades. but first, why is he back? >> i don't know. >> i thought it was over. >> i thought he was gone. >> i told you i was uncok uncomfortable. >> are you guys done? finished?

good? okay. no problem. i got it from here. good morning, everyone. we are watching temperatures that are cold in the east. snow in the middle of the country. not a big storm but a lot of areas will see light snow today including much of arkansas, almost all of missouri. iowa getting know right now. headed for st. louis and chicago. everyone will pick up about one to three inches at most and even indianapolis and cleveland late tonight an inch or two. just enough to make the drive slippery as you go throughout the day today. for those waking up on the west coast, light rain for california. even san francisco and l.a. today. may want to have the umbrella for some of those showers. forecast today, messy in the middle. east coast gueetting warmer and valentine's day southeast the date will have to get umbrella coverage. that's where we'll see showers. you're watching "morning joe." we're brewed by starbucks. the employee of the month isss...

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>> there's pretty broad agreement that time for austerity is not today. we need to be on a path where over the next several days we bring our deficit under control. right now we have a recovery that's taking root and if we put in austerity measures right now it would take the economy in the wrong way. >> the deficit should not be the number one priority? >> we've seen from republicans in the house that they don't want to be part of any plan that raises taxes at all.

the president's budget has $1 of revenue for every $2.5 of spending cuts. it can be done when we work together. >> welcome back to "morning joe" at 22 past the hour. greece is on its way to getting $170 billion in bailout money after its parliament approved harsh new austerity measures. the crucial vote passed as rioters angry with drastic cuts clashed with police and torched buildings across athens. we have the editor and chief of "town and country" magazine. the burning question is will the ship owners make the sort of financial investment at home that could save their country? the answer is not been forthcoming. most greek tycoons are following the union's advice to keep their opinions to themselves.

the vow of silence suits their needs when the greek populace is rioting almost daily to protest severe austerity measures. any confession of a lifestyle by the golden greeks could cause them serious trouble. so they must be living very sumtuouslily. >> there's an example of one family who had a grand wedding and didn't realize that they also invited one of the reporters from a well known gossip magazine in europe so they went ahead and chronicled the whole thing and exposed them all to being out of touch. >> how big is the division between richest and poorest in greece? >> i would think its significant especially right now. i think what's interesting to think about when this comes to these greek ship owners and their history, when they think about giant money in the world,

now we think of clever 20 year olds in silicon valley but in the past we have thought of saudi princes still hanging around and of course the greek ship owner who seems to have found a way to keep going since the time of homer really. i think what you find there's about 800 families in greece that would be known to be ship owners and they control something in the range of about 18 billion in euros that are put into the greek economy every year and i think there's an argument not unlike the one that's going on in america right want to thw as one of them good money after bad. you have a government that can't in some ways even control the streets to keep them safe. why would you be very eager to keep paying more than your share to help your country. >> john meacham?

>> 800 families? >> about 800. >> to what extent are they reinvesting in their businesses or countries or is there a lot of money going to swiss bank accounts and the caymans? >> greek shipping is an offshore business. it's inkorcorporated in various world capitals, whether it's london, geneva or new york and it's hard to track where that money goes and how taxes are paid. greece is not exactly a shining example of, you know, a tax culture that feels very responsible. there is no warren buffett figure over there trying to find a way to pay more than his share, right? so what you have is an example like two-thirds of doctors in greece claiming that they make no more than 12,000 euros a year, which is the cutoff for paying any tax at all. >> that's coincidental, isn't it? interesting they would pick that

number. >> remarkable, right? >> obviously a few others when they made their billions contributed to the greek history. >> invested in the greek economy. created thousands and thousands of jobs. that torch so to speak has not passed. >> you have to look at it within the context of history and the greek shipping really was born out of the need for the greeks to throw off the yoke of -- in the early 19th century and during world war ii so this shipping culture that existed in the islands for many years as we know decided during world war ii to hand over most all ships to the allies in order to ferry more material back and forth across the atlantic. they lost 70% of their fleet. at the end of the war, the americans came in and said we have these liberty boats. these huge 10,000 ton cargo

ships. we built them for $2 million. we'll sell them to you for 125,000. >> the writer who wrote this story wrote a small classical about his mother's life during the greek civil war and the communist attempted takeover of greece. i wonder in the article which we haven't read yet, he talks about, a, did he perceive a feeling of patriotism of country love and protectiveness toward country among the rich greeks toward greece and, b, is there one person he spoke to among the rich, the shipping folk, who seemed deeply concerned about his country in a way that suggested he wanted to be part of helping it. >> the ones who spoke to him on

the record, they have traditionally invested a great deal of money in greece and were the family behind rehabilitating the grand hotel which is right near constitution square where the rioting has been going on. they poured half a billion dollars into that hotel. it's a point of pride to have a building like that shining in the middle of a city. and their feelings are that hotel has now been defaced. it continues to be even over the weekend. >> in the rioting? >> in the rioting, right. chunks of marble torn off and you can see their point of view that they feel like their hands are tied to a certain extent. the more money they invest in their own country, they feel like they don't have a government as a partner to not unlike a lot of people feel in this country, is this the best way to spend my money?

two sides not unlike this country. one are concerned with fairness as what is fair here? is it fair for a bus driver to have 20% of his salary cut, his retirement age go up to 65, his pension cut and for someone who sits on billions of dollars to do nothing. that's one argument. the other argument may be on the side of ship owners is that i've been paying my fair share to a completely corrupt, inept government. they've squaun dndered it all. they don't enforce the tax code in election years in order to get elected. this is foolishness, right? so you have others like that pulled out. they have taken out almost 70% of what they had been investing in this country and then you have a family that connects this whole story in a certain way. the father was somebody who was

very much a greek who grew up in the war. i think he feels he's now passed away just a few years ago. he's a very national character. a patriot. i think he was going to go down dying trying to find a way around the bureaucracy, the corrupt sector, to help his country and done it for $1.5 billion. >> ultimately parallel messages as we look toward our own condition here in the united states? >> yes, definitely. again, there's an interesting book i wanted to mention that i've been looking at by this man who is a psychologist at a political kind of observer at uva. he's written a book called the righteous mind. he may have been on here. i'm not sure. he's a fascinating character. he's looking at these issues from psychological points of view instead of simply what it

is we think we're fighting for and what is our motivation? he's seeing on one hand you have people who care about fairness. on the other hand you have people who care about how responsibility or irresponsible government is when you give them your money. depends on what side we're on. i think both of them are legitimate arguments when you boil it down and this is something that's really magnified to the thousand degree in a country like greece. >> thank you very much. >> there are parallels. >> so many. >> we're just waiting for you. >> stop. >> just reinvest your billions in the economy instead of always jetting off to the south of france. >> every time you do that and you say i'm there and i'm really not -- >> she was there this weekend on a greek ship. >> that's right. >> you know these people, right? >> yeah. >> that's the difference between us. your dad ran u.s. foreign policy, my dad ran little league baseball teams.

we hung out with the next door neighbors at barbecues. i can't even pronounce that name. >> you don't need to. you just have to be able to read it. >> thank you for that. i appreciate that. up next, the voice of the westminster kennel club dog show joins us next on "morning joe." [ shapiro ] at legalzoom, you can take care of virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business... protect your family...

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>> 3,000 dogs competing for best in show. some big and some are small. some really small. bushy coats and coats so silky they look like they were spun by a giant spider. you name it. they're here. good evening, ladies and gentlemen. if you are a dog or a friend of a dog, you want to look at the tv guide because they come to the may flower with their crates, kibble and cookies and most important with a will to win that only a fellow dog can truly appreciate. >> one of the great characters in the history of film. fred willard. commentary for the mayflower dog show in "best in show." and here is the voice of the real dog show. westminster kennel club dog show

david frei. what did you think about that movie? >> we all loved it. it's kind of flattering to be the object of satire by a group like that. they didn't make fun of the dogs or the sport. they only made fun of the people. we admit to being kind of a target rich environment. >> a target rich environment. that's great. >> a quirky group fair to say. >> a lot said i know that character. i know that character. i had my wife yelling at me for losing mr. bumble bee on the way to show. we have people walking around the dog show quoting those lines. >> people don't realize how big. >> i remember when i was 11 talking my parents into getting "sports illustrated" for me. the first cover was mr. dog show. i looked at it. are you kidding me? but that's the first time. this is such a huge event.

>> how did it get to be this event that the country looks forward to that is broadcast on the usa network in prime time. how did it get from where it began, what it is now? >> it helps being in new york city. the media capital of the world. we held our first event in 1877 and have done it every year since. second longest continuously held sporting event in the country behind only the kentucky derby. >> come on? >> how about that? >> i had no idea. >> all right, fine. the iphone is broken but you'll get the point. the scotch tape holding it together. would there be a special category for rescue dogs like cajun who have coiled tails like pigs. because he's perfect. >> that's what i say to everybody. the best in show dog is the one sitting next to you on the couch. come along with us. >> can i bring him? >> you can't bring him. >> which one is the real dog? i like the one up front. >> there are 2,000 dogs entered

in a year. how in the world do judges sort out which one is the best in show? what are they looking for? >> every breed has a written description of the ideal specimen of that breed called the standard. it tells you how tall they should be and where the angle should be and coat and color and eye shape and things like that. the judge is comparing each dog to that standard. you can't compare a scottish deer hound to another breed. >> it's madness. it's madness. how long have you been doing this now? >> this will be my 23rd year. >> what's the most embarrassing moment for an owner in the middle of this? was there a dog like ten seconds away from winning the whole thing and then went after the owner's leg? what is the most embarrassing moment 1234. >> it is a dog show.

dogs do what dogs do so to speak. and we've had that happen in the middle of the ring on national tv. you know, the dogs are there having follow up. the more embarrassing moments are for owners if they fall down or bend over the wrong way or they're not dressed appropriately. >> the owners are fun to watch. >> if one owns a dog, i'm fascinated by the owners, how do you get to the point where you say i want to be a competitive dog owner rather than just taking the dog to the park and enjoying time with the dog, i want to enter competition. what kind of person is that? >> you know, it's really a great family sport and great hobby. you can be involved at whatever level you want to be involved in. dip the toe in the shallow end of the pool or dive into the deep end. whether you want to go to your two local shows every month or maybe you want to go to 50 shows around the country or maybe 150 shows. >> what's the barrier to entry? >> do you have to be a purebred? >> you have to be a purebred. there's no other way. how else do we judge a dog that's not a purebred?

>> don't you have a mutt category? >> i judge the best in show mutt category on "the view" this thursday. >> if mika wanted to bring cajun, if she wanted to bring down from bronxville, how would that work? >> first of all, he would have to be an akc champion. that's the first requirement there. we are announcing this pormorni that we're expanding categories for 2003 and moving breed competition up and will still have our group in best in show at the garden at night. akc champion. you have to make the entry process. we invite the first five dogs to be pre-entered so we know they're there.

we work with you. >> i'm hearing a lot this year, the name beckham. tell me about him. >> he's probably the favorite on paper, which is dangerous to say in the dog world of course. beautiful black cocker spaniel. won the sporting group at westminster last year. he's a beautiful dog. you should be watching him. >> what's the over and under? how much gambling goes on? >> they set the odds at wynn casino in vegas. i saw him over christmas. they put the dogs on the big screen in the sport book and people come in and root and cheer just like they were cheering a horse on. >> beckham is two to one. that's an easy one. >> 6-1 is the favorite. >> wow. there's beckham there. he's no hickory or cajun.

>> the big event is tonight 8:00 eastern. 7:00 central on the usa network. huge deal every year. it will be again this year. see if beckham lives up to the hype. david frei, thank you so much. how market futures are reacting to the ugly situation in greece this morning. business before the bell is next.

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oh, i left my 401(k) at my old job. and i left a jacket on the back of my door. but i think the line's talking about my 401(k). leave a 401(k) behind? roll it over with a company that's helping more people reach retirement than anyone else. call or come in for a free portfolio review today. >> welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful shot of times square. let's get a check on biz before the bell with brian shactman live at cnbc headquarters. greece in a meltdown. what's the latest? >> it's calmer there today obviously but i think the violence and the fear in europe

and everywhere that maybe they can't implement all of these changes is keeping the markets maybe tamped a bit. we're up 80 points in the dow. seeing athens ablaze is startling for a lot of people. it's just one of those things where do we go from here? i said this to mika last week. there's a new government that could come in in april and everyone needs to make sure that whatever was agreed upon will be stuck to and there's a little bit of skepticism about followthrough when it comes to greece. >> look at these pictures, willie. let's go back to the pictures. let's look at the pictures. this looks like vanderbilt's campus when they won a national championship. >> that's why we've never seen those pictures on a national championship. >> what's the impact on the u.s. on our economy on our markets? >> that's a great question. when it comes to our economy, the impact is zero. let's face it. we've had a nice rebound here

even when fear about greece was at its height. the concern is contagion and sentiment and what happens if greece gets booted out of the eurozone, what does that do to financial agreements and the collateral cdss and insurance that needs to be paid. in terms of economy, nothing to worry about. if this thing went south and they got booted out, who knows if we got insecure about what goes on in europe. >> all right. brian, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. >> coming up, adele. the big winner last night. next on "morning joe." the employee of the month is...

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a somber move at the grammy awards following the death of whitney houston. the event was began with a prayer saying there was a death in the family. jennifer hudson had the job of playing tribute to whitney houston with a rendition of "i will always love you." ♪ i will always love you ♪ i will always love you >> jennifer hudson knocking it

out of the park. beyond tributes to whitney, the star of the night was the 23-year-old adele. she recently underwent vocal cord surgery and couldn't speak for a couple months. last night her first public singing performance in five months. she sang "rolling in the deep" from her album. the 23 year old won all six grammies for which she was nominating including album of the year, record of the year, song of the year. big nights for foo fighters they won five. conna west won four. here is adele after she won the big award of the night. album of the year. >> thank you so much. thank you. this record is inspired by something that is really normal and everyone has been through it. it's just a rubbish relationship. and it's gone on to do things that i can't tell you how i feel about it. it's been the most life changing

year and i want to tank my record companies and excel records and nick who signed me. all through the snot. my mom. everyone. all of you. thank you so much! my god! >> huge night for adele. she deserves it. >> she's so good. >> she's great. >> i know all of her songs. >> how do you know her songs? >> my daughter plays them in the car. her voice is stunning. >> we saw anderson last night on "60 minutes." an incredible profile of her. >> it was a good piece. she was as humble as you can be given what's happened to her in the last year. she seems genuinely surprised by it all and she made the point that she doesn't care particularly about the way she looks. i just want people to know what i'm about is singing and music and i'm not going to be --

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time to talk about what we learned today. what did you learn? >> i learned beckham is 6-1 favorite at the westminster dog show tonight. >> what about you, john? >> i learned that the adele is very big. >> yes. >> first time you ever heard of her? >> it is actually. >> she's incredible. willie has a crush on her. >> people are sending me pictures on twitter of their rescues. one guy sent me a picture of his dog with big ears on