"caught on camera." it's the place where lies unravel. and alibis crumble. >> why wouldn't you abduct them? tell me that. >> the interrogation room, or as cops call it, the box. >> remember, he doesn't like you. he doesn't trust you. and he doesn't respect you. and you've got to overcome those three things before you're going to get a confession. >> in california, a seasoned detective takes us along for a psychological showdown with a suspected serial rapist. >> what was it that pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on

women? >> and in arkansas a boy tells us about being 12 and on the other side of the table. >> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. i didn't. >> they automatically assumed i was in demonic little kid. i didn't kill her. i wouldn't kill her. >> leave me alone. >> now, go where cases can be made or broken. msnbc takes you "inside the box." april 21st, 1999, homicide investigator larry hobson leads rex krebs, a 33-year-old sex

offender, into the box or interview room. at police head quart arequarter luis obispo, a college town off of the california coast. >> it's been my experience that many, many investigators when they go in to do an interview or interrogation, they don't have a plan set up ahead of time. they sit down, they start talking. they wing it. first thing you have to do is develop some type of rapport or that person's not going to talk to you at all. >> hobson, assistant chief investigator for the san luis obispo district attorney's office makes sure krebs' handcuffs immediately come off. >> you sit down to talk to someone about a serious crime, the worst thing you can do is keep reminding him of possible consequences. handcuffs are consequences. having a gun exposed where he can see it is a consequence, a

badge, a badge on your belt they all represent confinement. he's going to go to prison. and you don't want that. have you ever met rachel and audrey? >> krebs has been in custody for some 30 days. since police found a bb gun at his job, a violation of his parole. but both krebs and his interrogator know that's not why they're here. two young women, students at nearby colleges, have gone missing. one taken off the street, the other from her home in the middle of the night. police suspect the women have fallen victim to a sexual predator. >> san luis obispo had a lot of people that had been convicted of sex offenses.

just about any one of them could have done something like this. >> rex krebs is one of dozens of sex offenders interviewed by police. he and hobson have been talking for weeks informally at the county jail. since krebs' parole agent david siragusa notifies the task force there's a parallel between the way the women apparently vanished and the suspect's past. >> back in may 1987, he committed a rape. he had broken through the bathroom window. and at the end of that crime, he hog tied the victim and left the residence -- and i'll never forget this -- he said to the victim, have a nice day. >> krebs serves ten years for the rape as well as another sexual assault. now investigator hobson believes it's time to interview krebs on camera, hoping to extract a confession and find the college

students. rachel newhouse and andrea crawford. >> if you were going to do that crime, and you saw somebody you wanted to abduct, you know, bear with me here, this is a hypothetical, that you wanted to abdu abduct, take some place, how would you do it? >> i'm not even going to talk about that. thinking like that is dangerous. >> at this point he's evaluating me as much as i'm evaluating him. i'm watching rex's nonverbal behavior. it's outgoing. he's having no problem answering my question. he's very animated with his hands. he's leaning forward on occasion talking. >> hobson realizes it won't be easy to get krebs to confess, but with 28 years of law enforcement experience, the investigator believes he knows the criminal mind. >> why couldn't you be the person that's responsible for

rachel and andrea's disappearance? >> why couldn't i be? >> yeah, why wouldn't you abduct them? tell me that. >> because it's not in my makeup. >> hobson appears to take krebs at his word asking him for help understanding the mentality that led to his past crimes. >> you're not a bad looking guy. put together. you were young at tt tihe time. 21. you were engaged. what was it that at that young age, especially 21, pushed you into the idea of forcing sex on women. >> mama. >> how is that? >> want the whole story? >> yeah. >> i'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist. i'm trying to get him to talk, i want that rapport going. because in an hour or less, i'm going to confront him. >> mom and dad divorced when i

was 5 because mom decided she wanted to drink and [ bleep ] the neighbor guy. >> maybe i'm missing something. how does this tie into forcing yourself on other women? >> hated women. >> okay. all women or just certain women? >> i think it was pretty much all women. no respect. >> maybe tomorrow, next week, next year, ten years from now, i don't know, but we're going to find the person that's responsible for both andrea and rachel's disappearance. what do you think should happen to him when he find him? >> kill him. >> kill him. that's a question that i ask almost in any interview or interrogation i do because it tells us a lot in the answer. most people look at themselves and think, what should happen to me for doing this?

rex kind of surprised me with his answer. coming off right away and saying that whoever did this should be put to death. but at the same time he, i think, at that point was believing that we didn't think he did it. >> but police have been to krebs' house and found items he thinks he's hidden. investigator hobson is waiting for his moment to turn the interview into an interrogation. revealing the secret and taking the unusual step of bringing the woman krebs loves into the interrogation room. so, this is delicious

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san luis obispo, california, april 21st, 1999. >> i've never disagreed with you

guys investigating me. i haven't. >> homicide investigator larry hobson interviews rex krebs, a registered sex offender serving time on a parole violation. krebs says he knows nothing about the whereabouts of missing college coeds rachel newhouse and andrea crawford. but the investigator is about to reveal evidence he thinks ties krebs to the disappearances. >> after a 2, 2 1/2 hour interview, i confronted him for the very first time, and then it became an interrogation. >> do you want me to touch that. >> my fingerprints are all over it. >> krebs has kept the trinket in a wooden box in his house. task force members watching from an adjoining room have been told

andrea crawford always carried this same key chain. >> rapists will sometimes take items from the victims. it keeps the memory of the rape and the domination and everything that goes with a rape fresh in their mind so they can relive it. >> he handed it back to me. and acted like he didn't know who it belonged to. he was still pretty loose and open. one other thing. that really jumps out is you only have one jumpsuit in the back of the truck, right? >> mm-hmm. >> what happened to the other one? >> we found that his truck had a jump seat that was missing. eventually we found the jump seat underneath his house way back in a corner. and it was obvious somebody had scrubbed on it and tried to

clean things up. so we didn't even fool with it. we packaged it up and sent it off to the crime lab. >> dna i'm sure and the results. and guess whose blood that is? rachel newhouse. at that point, rex stopped being animated. he stopped being open. he stopped being talkative. it was out of control, right? rex, look at me. you got out of control? rex, tell me what you're thinking. tell me what's going through your head. at that point i got concerned because once rex said he wanted an attorney, that means the interview was done. we wouldn't be able to try to

recover their bodies or do any follow-up. it was over. and i did not want him to invoke his right to remain silent. so you have to kind of treat him with kid gloves. talk to me. look at me. it's not easy. it's not easy. i know that. he shuts me off verbally, but when i touch him, that brings him back into, okay, i'm talking to him. he can feel the touch. with rex, it still didn't work. >> you beat on me. >> huh? >> i said if you sit there and keep trying to beat on me. >> i'm not beating on you. >> yes, you are. i'm not going to say nothing. >> i was afraid if i pushed him any further, he would invoke. but i made the decision to shut the interrogation down and

hopefully be able to resume it the next day. >> oh, we were pissed, but we trusted him. he was a seasoned -- way more seasoned investigator than i was at the time. and just like, okay, he's doing this for a reason. >> what follows is a long sleepless night for both the interrogator and the suspect. followed by a stunning decision to let the sex offender tell his story directly to his pregnant girlfriend. [ wind sounds ] [ horn honks ] [ dog barks ] [ dog whimpers ] [ wind whistling ] [ dog whimpers ] why does my mouth feel dryer than i remember it to be?

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after questioning registered sex offender rex krebs for more than three hours about two missing college students, investigator larry hobson notices the suspect retreating into himself. >> i agreed to take him back to his cell. he's in the backseat telling me he's a dead man walking. the next morning i went out to the jail at 6:00 a.m.

i said rex, this isn't going to go away. we need to talk. he says all right. >> once again, the pair enter the interrogation room. very quickly hobson senses that his gamble has paid off. >> are you responsible for the disappearance of both girls? are we going to find either girl alive? that was a no? okay. krebs begins describing the events of november 12th, 1998. driving through town and spotting 20-year-old rachel newhouse just after she leaves a bar popular with cal poly students. >> i had a -- what do you call it? premonition of where she was going. >> a premonition? okay. where did you think she was going? >> up on the bridge. >> krebs says he parks below the

jennifer street bridge, a pedestrian walkway over the railroad tracks. >> he put on a mask, one that you've probably seen in the "scream" movies, a "scream" mask. he puts this mask on and steps off to the side so she can't see him as she comes up the ramp. what happens next? >> i attacked her. >> when you say you attacked her, what do you mean attacked her? >> i turn around and hit her. >> where did you hit her? >> across the jaw, i believe. >> okay. now she's unconscious laying on the bridge, what happens? >> i bring her down to my truck. >> you say you drugged her. what do you mean by that? >> drug her down the stairs. >> you didn't carry her down?

>> no. >> how did you drag her? >> by her hair. >> krebs recalls tying up rachel and driving toward his home beyond the city limits. >> what happens in there? >> i raped her. >> he had a very sophisticated system of knot tying. rex claims that during the night rachel would strug wegle with t ropes being around her neck and her feet, and she actually strangled herself and she died. >> took a shovel with me and i dug a griv and buried her. >> so far the interrogation is going exactly as hobson hoped. krebs talks about sinking back into normal life. working at a lumber yard where

he's regarded as a star employee. but just a few months later, he says he's driving around and becomes fixated on andrea crawford, when he spots her returning to her off campus home after classes at college. >> then one night he was at home drinking and he decided this was the night he was going to abduct andrea. he drove into town, parked his vehicle right in front of her duplex. tried all the doors, all the windows, and they were all locked. >> then, krebs says, he notices a small bathroom window and lowers himself into the shower. >> what happened? >> i hit her. >> you punched her? >> yeah. >> where? >> in the mouth. >> how many times did you punch her? >> three or four times. >> what happens to her?

>> makes her unconscious. >> he says he hogties the victim and wraps a pillow case around her head with duct tape. then he carries her out the front door to his truck and drives her to his property. >> put her on the bed, untied her, took her clothes off, raped and sodomized her. what was she saying? >> she wasn't saying nothing. >> what do you do? >> strangle her. >> okay. how did you strangle her? >> piece of rope. >> and what happened? >> she died. >> after covering the body with hog wire to ward off animals, krebs digs a grave. ironically, he then buys flowers for his pregnant girlfriend roslyn. >> does roslyn know anything about this one?

>> nobody knows anything about it. >> just you and i. >> just you and me. >> despite krebs' confession, police are anxious to find the victims' bodies. krebs agrees to lead authorities to the graves, but first he'd like a favor from larry hobson. >> he loved roslyn very much, obviously. he says, larry, he says, is it possible that i can sit down and talk with roslyn and my boss and tell them what i did rather than have them see it on the news? and i felt that was a fair request based on what he had just confessed to. plus it was another chance for us to hear his confession to somebody other than me. >> how you doing? >> in a barely audible voice,

krebs gently tells the future mother of his child that he's the one who raped and killed the two college students. >> oh, my god. no. please. >> it was emotional. yeah, it really was. >> why did you do that? >> she had a serial killer for a boyfriend, and she didn't know it. >> no, leave me alone. god. >> calm down. >> she was at that time, i think, about seven months pregnant. and immediately started hyperventilating. to the point we finally had to call a paramedic to come and treat her. >> what's going on? >> she just got some bad news. >> with the interrogation over, krebs brings investigators to the crime scene, keeping his promise to larry hobson. >> he liked larry.

it's a weird relationship, but it's a relationship. >> despite that relationship, hobson testifies at krebs' 2001 trial, persuading the jury to send the killer to death row for raping and killing the students. from san quentin, krebs writes christmas cards to hobson, grateful for the way the investigator questioned him with decency and kindness. >> it just shows that he respected me for the job i had to do. it's just business. coming up -- what's it like to be 12 years old and sitting in the interrogation chair? >> i didn't do it! i didn't kill my sister. i wouldn't kill her. [ male announcer ] is zero worth nothing?

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening.

a deadly avalanche in washington state. three skiers were killed in stevens pass northeast of seattle. eight others have been pulled out alive. the u.s. is urging israel not to attack iran's nuclear program. general martin dempsey said today that such an attack would have grave consequences for the entire region. he said sanctions should be given more time to work. now back to "inside the box." camden, arkansas. august 2006. >> it's a fact. i know i didn't do it. but who did? thomas starts talking to himself alone in an interrogation room after police tell him he's responsible for the murder of his 11-year-old sister kaylee.

>> i'm going to tell them i didn't do it because that's the truth. >> unlike rex krebs, thomas is a complete stranger to the criminal justice system. >> here he's 12. his sister's dead. he's emotionally an infant at this point. >> if the emotional wounds were visible, this child would have bled to death before the first interview was over n the summer of 2006, thomas is about to enter the eighth grade while living here with kaylee and their mother melody jones. she suffers from mental illness and has attempted suicide at least once. >> she could go from one emotion to the other in a snap.

if we, me and my sister were playing and we got too loud or anything, my mom would flip out and start yelling and screaming and grab something and maybe hit one of us. i stayed away from her. because i didn't know how she would act. >> on august 7th, shortly after they find kaylee's body in her bedroom, thomas and his mother are asked to come to camden police headquarters. thomas enters the box or interview room. what follows is a remarkable window into the interrogation process from the suspect's point of view. >> did you argue with your sister very often? >> every now and then, like maybe once a day. >> i just answered the questions. i didn't think there would be anything wrong in telling them. i just said this is what happened in our house. this is how our house functions.

>> just after the 30-minute mark, detectives get more specific, questioning thomas about the circumstances surrounding kaylee's death. thomas recalls being woken up by his mother some time before noon and told to accompany her to kaylee's room to deliver a letter from a friend. >> my mom woke me up and said, let's go surprise kaylee. went in there. she was like that. >> like what? >> tied up with bags over her head. my mom ripped off the bags. i went around to her other side. and she was all cold and blue. her hands and her feet were tied. >> how were they tied? >> i don't know. in a knot. i couldn't get it undone. neither could my mom. >> the apparent murder weapons are the family's personal items. both thomas and his mother say

kaylee's hands are tied withshh bod with cloth measuring fap. the two shopping bags on kaylee's face come from walmart. >> i didn't know she was dead yet. i feared that there was something wrong, but i wasn't aware fully. >> thomas? >> yeah. >> thomas, i'm with the state police. >> yes. >> and i've been kind of listening to some of the story that you've been telling. and i'm going to tell it to you just like it is. you're an intelligent boy, aren't you? >> yeah. >> well, we're pretty intelligent, too. >> okay. >> and the bottom line is nobody broke in that house last night. so your sister died and there was only two people in the house that could have killed her. >> okay. >> you or your mother. >> but police apparently don't

believe melody jones murdered kaylee. >> now, all i want to know -- i really want to know why. >> why what? >> why you would kill your sister. >> i wouldn't. >> but you had to have because your mother didn't. >> i didn't kill her. i know i didn't. i'm finally starting to realize that she was dead. i'm scared. i'm getting a bit frustrated at the police for asking me all these questions. it pushed me over the edge and i start to break down. >> you killed your sister. >> i didn't kill her. i didn't. >> it will feel a whole lot better if you just tell me. >> i didn't. i didn't kill her. i did not. >> it had to have been you, son. >> i didn't do it. i didn't kill my sister. i wouldn't kill her.

>> is there any way i can prove that to you? >> it's going to be difficult. >> i'm going in circles. there's nothing else i could think about what there had to be somebody else who got in there, but the cops kept saying that wasn't the case. >> now, i'm not saying that you killed her. >> look it, it's a possibility that it could have been an accident and i don't remember, okay? but if i don't remember killing her. >> the interrogation is taking a critical turn. >> i'm starting to be convinced that maybe i just don't remember. maybe i'm wrong. i'm getting to the point where i'm starting to maybe accept what they're telling me. is there a possibility? >> you two played around and you tied her up? >> it's a possibility because i don't remember. if i did or not. i might not just remember like

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in a camden, arkansas, police station, 12-year-old thomas kog cogdale is in trouble. for more than an hour police have been asking questions about his younger sister kaylee. thomas and his mother say they found her that morning tied up with the dog's leash and measuring tape and suffocated with two walmart shopping bags over her head.

what thomas doesn't realize is that on the other side of the interrogation room walls his paternal grandfather steve harris has come to assist him. >> i said i'd like to see my grandson. and they said, well, we're interrogating him. and i said, does he have a lawyer or a child advocate? they said no. and the strangest thing they said was, since 9/11 that's all changed. >> officers point out that thomas' mother melody jones is also in the building and has given them permission to interview the boy. >> i said she's bipolar, she has just lost her daughter, she's in a destroyed state. she's not competent enough to help him or help herself. and they said, as long as she says we can talk to thomas, that's all we need. >> i just wanted, for the

record, that you did allow us to talk to thomas. is that correct? >> yes. >> melody jones declined to be interviewed by msnbc. >> a parent should not be able to give up your rights especially when she's the only other person that could have done it. >> even worse for thomas, he's giving investigators information that's starting to work against him. like detailses of a game he played with kaylee using handcuffs made of yarn. >> could you have been in her room since mama was in bed and you all decided to play and tie each other up? >> no. i don't tie her up with leashes and -- >> but still you could have been in there and you say, come on, let's play prison break or whatever. >> i don't remember. >> and then tie her up. >> i don't remember.

>> and that's fine because you're playing a game. >> could i have tied her up and did this by accident? i felt like they were trying to find some friction between us. >> now, you said you have, you have some anger problems? >> yes. >> who is your anger directed to most of the time? >> my sister. >> and why is that? >> because she argues with me, she bosses me around, she doesn't respect me because i'm older. she's supposed to respect me. i don't know what's going on. my sister's gone. why aren't we trying to find the person that did this? why are you asking me all these questions? do you know what time it is? i'm getting very hungry. >> 90 minutes into the interrogation, thomas is brought in to another room to eat. law enforcement officials stay with him the entire time. >> they took that child off camera for three hours and 30,

40 minutes. i guess they didn't want us to know what was being said because they certainly had the ability to record it. >> while thomas eats melody jones replaces her son in the interrogation room. >> were you in any way involved in the death of your daughter? >> no, sir. i wouldn't hurt her like that. i don't even like spanking them. i wouldn't do that. and i don't think thomas would either. >> when you watch that tape, whenever you get past thomas wouldn't hurt her sister, then generally speaking you get some tears followed by something derogatory or negative about thomas. that he blows up, he's on medication, he doesn't have friends. he doesn't like church. things of that nature. >> when you catch him doing

something, is he good about fessing up or is he the type that's going to deny it to the end? >> he denies it. >> they automatically assumed i was in violent socially withdrawn pretty much demonic little kid where i black out and do crazy, violent things. >> how am i going to deal with this? >> i'm going to tell you. the good lord would be a good place to start. i don't feel like you should push him into church. if you don't, the devil is going to take him. >> he doesn't like going to church. he sits there like -- >> it's better than sitting in hell. >> i know. >> this is a very churchy city, i guess. everyone here believes in god, goes to church every sunday. and for a 12-year-old kid to say, i don't like going to church makes you feel uncomfortable, it's weird.

>> if he would do this once, he might do it again. we'd have to be in fear for anybody else he's around, any other child or young person or even you. >> at a certain point, detectives excuse themselves and leave melody alone. when they do, a camera picks up a faint sound from another room. >> you hear the words from a male voice, thomas, i'm not going to ask you -- and it fades off and i think the next word is "again." and it's about at that point that thomas says that he decided that it was time to go ahead and tell them what they wanted to hear. >> after i get through eating, this other man comes in, and we start talking. then he starts to get angry.

and he says, if you do not confess, we will charge with you the death penalty as an adult. and they start telling me these little bits of information i could work into a story. maybe i got angry because she wouldn't listen to me. maybe we were playing around or it was an accident or maybe i just blacked out and don't remember any of it. i didn't want to die. so i told them i did it. >> yet thomas says he thinks he's going home that night. and he tells his mother he knows the one fact he's sure will set him free. ...that mary got engaged? that's so 42 seconds ago. thanks for the flowers guys. [ both ] you're welcome. oooh are you guys signing up for the free massage? [ both ] so 32 seconds ago. hey guys you hear frank's cat is sick? yeah, we heard. wanna sign the card? did you know the guys from china are in the office... [ speaking chinese ] [ male announcer ] stay a step ahead with the 4g lte galaxy s ii skyrocket.

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august 7, 2006, police rush

this small house in cam dden, arkansas, after receiving a report that a 11-year-old girl bound and smothered in her bedroom with two walmart shopping bags. the interrogation room, ready to confess. if thomas seems calm, he says there's a reason. he's convinced that investigators will soon clear him in the death of his sister, katie. >> all i'm telling you is if i just get through this and tell them what they want to hear, i did go home, get done with this. >> let's go over the information. >> he is read his rights. >> do you agree to answer questions? do you understand the waiver?

>> no. >> it is simply says that what you're saying, you're doing on your own free will. >> okay. >> the definition they gave was incorrect. he's 12 years old. he does not comprehend what it means to give up a right to an attorney. >> what happened last night at your house between you and your sister that led up to where we are today? >> she was asleep with the tv still on. so i put the trash bags over her head and i held her down for a few minutes. >> what do you mean the trash bag. >> the walmart bag. the walmart bag over her head and she was there. i tied her wrist and feet. i put her arms under her and

then i went back to bed. >> he comes back and he's a robot. he is not the same person he was 3 1/2 hours ago. >> thomas now waits for police to bring his mother into the interrogation room. he tells his investigators he'll confess to her, too, under one condition. he wants to do it privately. the investigators leave the room but the camera continues to roll. >> mom -- >> i whispered in her ear. what i'm about to tell you is not true. they're going find out tomorrow my prints are not on the bags or anything. >> the officer testified, he told thomas that the fingerprints from the person who killed kaly would be on the bag at a certain angle. well, thomas was smart enough to

know that he had never touched those bags. he had not held those bags to kaly's face. >> i did it. i want you to understand. i'm the one that did that to kaly. it was an accident. i'm sorry. it was an accident. yeah, she kupt on disrespecting me. >> okay. let's go. >> we can't. sit down. let me see what they want to do, okay? >> okay. remember, don't tell nobody. >> i think thomas was afraid that if she told them that he was going to be taken out in another room and interrogated some more. >> what did you whisper to you? >> he said that he went along

with what he said. he said -- he said he didn't do it. and that y'all wouldn't find his fingerprints. >> his statement was very detailed, in my opinion. but he's wanting to hold back on you because he doesn't want you mad at him, i think that's probably what it amounts to. >> he should trust me. >> thomas doesn't return home. on march 18th, 2008, he goes on trial for the murder of his younger sister. >> there was absolutely no evidence to connect thomas to this crime keexcept his confession. my theory at the trial was that

someone, not thomas, had held kaly's head into the pillow. when i asked the medical examiner if the cause of death was consistent with a large person straddling kaly and holding her head in the pillow, he said, yes, that was consistent with per her suffocation. he said that is certainly consistent. >> i approach the bed, i kneeled down on the bed and went back to her head. >> nonetheless, thomas' words and the interrogation room are too powerful for the judge overseeing the case. and thomas is convicted of second-degree murder. >> i was shocked. i figured how could he come to that verdict when it's so obvious that i didn't do it?

>> during nearly three years in juvenile detention, thomas is a model inmate. his lawyer fights to have the verdict overturned. >> what you're saying, you are saying it of your own free will. >> the decision will come down to an error made in the interrogation room. in 2010, the arkansas supreme court unanimously throws out the confession. based on police giving thomas the wrong definition of the word waiver. his battle with the legal system ends when prosecutors take no further action. the case is dismissed. >> it's very hard for me to wrap my head around the belief of the police that thomas actually committed this murder.

and that the only reason he's free is because they made a mistake in telling him what a waiver is. >> authorities say thomas' juvenile status at the time of the murder prevents them from discussing the case. in a statement to msnbc, prosecutor robin carol did say a prosecutor is the only one in a criminal action who is responsible for the presentation of the truth. through our efforts in this case, we believe we have achieved that goal. >> someone killed my sister and they just dropped the case. justice has not been done. >> back in camden, thomas moves in with his grandparents. he says he rarely communicates with his mother and hopes to study astro psychics. this is the first time he's ever spoken about his interrogation. >> the cops did was not