at the top of the show we foolishly asked you, why are you awake? well, john tower has your answers. johnny? >> good morning, mr. barnicle. we have deborah on twitter who writes, why is mike barnicle hosting? i want willie. >> willie decided to practice celibacy for lent, he's home practicing, and he'll be home eventually. okay. you got another one? >> yeah, we have a vicky e-mail. yesterday was mardi gras, i ate too much shrimp and trying to avoid a hangover, what do you recommend? >> believe me. take my recipe. it's guaranteed. you need a burnt hamburger, a nice cold bottle of coca-cola, couple of aspirins, and you'll be fine by april 15th. thanks, johnny. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ is this dude serious?

fiscal conservative? really? santorum voted to raise the debt ceiling five times double the size of the department of education. then supported the biggest entitlement expansion since the '60s. santorum voted to send billions of our tax dollars to dictators in north korea and egypt and even hooked planned parenthood up with a few million bucks. a fiscal conservative? fake. >> i'm ron paul, and aapproi ap this message. good morning, it's wednesday, february 22nd. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have the director of the earth institute at columbia university dr. jeffrey sachs. mike just sat down. hi, mike. >> hello, mika. >> how are you? >> we also have the editor in chief of "newsweek" magazine tina brown. >> hello. >> good to have you all onboard.

are you back? >> i'm back. there's a couple of things here. jeffrey's going to jump all over this. >> don't even look at the "new york times." >> i think jeffrey wrote this "new york times" story about super donors. >> it's amazing. >> just a handful of people now. just a handful of people fueling this race. there's a couple of people on the super pacs, the impacts. it's pretty ridiculous. it's a pretty, i can't use the word to describe how messed up the system is, but it's messed up. >> and you also have here -- you also have the supreme court is going to be taking up an affirmative action case. and mike barnicle, election year. this is going to be a blockbuster of a session for the supreme court. and a lot of these cases whether you're talking about affirmative action or, of course, the big one, health care, whether that individual mandate is constitutional or not. all falling in the middle of a presidential campaign. >> a supreme court this

fall, september and october. those two cases. >> yeah. >> and that'll drive the dialogue for weeks on end. >> i suspect very soon we'll be hearing that the supreme court will be taking up the case fr from -- out of this hhs controversy on whether this indirect funding of contraception by church organizations is unconstitutional. there you'll have something on the individual mandate, another hearing on religious liberties, another hearing on affirmative action. it's going to be huge. >> in the news, as well, which we'll get to. but first, we ought to get to politics. the republican presidential field is heading to arizona today to square off in one last debate before tuesday's primaries in michigan and arizona. it's been nearly a month since the candidates last shared a stage. and nbc news marist poll shows mitt romney and rick santorum in a statistical tie among michigan voters. ron paul and newt gingrich trail

by over 20 points. so far, romney's efforts to play up his michigan roots aren't registering with voters. the poll shows 88% say the candidates' ties to the state doesn't affect their vote, 10% say it's more likely to vote his candidacy. mitt romney leads santorum by 16 points, but the cnn time opinion research poll shows a much closer race in arizona. romney and santorum are within the margin of error separated by just 4 points. you've been following the race since you've been off. >> the races are close. i've been following more closely, though, what the republican front runners have been saying. and you know maybe i've been out of the game too long. >> i think you have. >> i think i have. maybe i have. >> no, no, no -- >> back in my day -- and it's been a long time. but back in my day, i would not want my party to be connected

with state sanctioned vaginal probes. >> oh, the probe. >> i don't know. maybe in 2012 what they're doing in virginia helps with swing voters, maybe women want state sanctioned vaginal probes, maybe they want front runners saying that it is immoral to take contraception. maybe they want a front runner that's actually going after protestants. >> it's really good at shooting itself in the foot. it's unbelievable. >> this is shooting yourself in the foot right there. what they're doing is looking for weapons and they're putting it right in their mouth. this theology thing. where rick santorum talks about the president's theology -- >> oh. >> and then tries to say that he was talking about the president's theology, he wasn't talking about the president's theology. >> yeah.

>> there are so many absurd statements that are flying out there. you see because here's when you know it's a problem. when my wife and other republican women who are pro-life, who are, in fact, my wife has lectured me on me being insufficiently pro-life on exceptions. when they go two weeks ago from talking about how president obama shouldn't be telling those catholics how they should do their business to going to lock the front doors because they're scared, you know, of what's going to happen. i mean, they are all sitting there going who is this guy? who is -- not just rick santorum, but who are these republicans? that are in virginia, all -- that are going around doing this. when you have conservative

pro-life women that have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate in their life sitting around a breakfast table as they were this past weekend and i said -- i didn't say a word. i just got up. it was like a focus group. i was like frank kleins. what do you think? and i sat listening to these conservative republican women in florida who have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate in their life going what in the hell is going on with our party? you know there's serious problems. that's all i'm saying. i'm going home now. >> they seem to be throwing it away. >> just saying really stupid things. >> they seem to be throwing it away. throwing it away. >> they're not going to change. the things they're talking about. rick santorum saying that contraception is not okay. and when he runs as a presidential candidate he's going to stop it. and talking about the president's theology and doing

all these other things, not talking about anything that they're going to be able to change once they get elected president. and that's important. because a lots of people say, joe, you're not sufficiently conservative, you're not fighting the conservative cause. well, i'm not going back to medieval times, no, i'm not, but also the things they're talking about on the campaign trail, not going to be enacted. they're just not. all they're doing is offending swing voters. >> and talking about the president's theology. i think that's something that's been tried several times and has not worked so it's just stupidity. it really is. >> you know, mike, most christians have heard from -- especially evangelicals. judge not that you be not judged. and when they hear somebody judging anybody's faith. >> doesn't work. >> doesn't matter who they are. >> at this moment in our culture, it is just so incredible that we wound up

after this long, arduous process. santorum criticizing the president's christianity in the middle of the time when we're in a giant iran crisis, and we have these guys talking about the devil and theology. it is just -- i mean the most scary part of it is all of this stuff goes out on youtube all over the world. the whole perception of the united states, which supposedly republicans care about, you know, our imagery in the world and how we used to be a great power. imagine how this is being received overseas. >> well, it's one thing, tina, if like george w. bush asked an iowan in 2000 whose your favorite philosopher? and she said jesus christ. a lot of people might not have liked it. but this is just taking it to a bizarre level. mike, those republicans and

independents and democrats that you said you saw all voting for scott brown. helping a republican win a democratic state. what are they thinking when they see this stuff? when they hear this stuff? >> they're frightened of where the republicans have been going now for at least a month, maybe longer than a month. you can sort of -- at one level, you can sort of understand the republican primary campaigns. they're going after niche voters in the far right so they're catering to them rhetorically. you sort of get that. but over the last month or so with the -- especially senator santorum focusing on theology, on contraception, you just wonder whether or not that this is the republican version this year of weapons of mass destruction. their own words which will be used against them this fall. no matter who the nominee is. running against president obama. they have frightened large numbers of women in the middle.

both republican and independents. the most important voting block, the most important voting block this fall probably will be independent women. it appears they've written them off. >> a lot of these statements, mika, are not just frightening women in the middle, they're frightening women on the right, very conservative, pro-life women. >> these are basic things that are stunning when you hear them coming out of rick santorum's mouth, the way he describes some things. if you read what he's said, read what he's written. and this is the problem, people haven't been looking. and all of a sudden he starts emerging, they're shocked at what they've got. this is the way he's been for many, many years. he just happens to also be an affable guy who can connect a little better than mitt romney. but if you look at his policies, quite frankly, his economic policy and some of the votes and choices he's made over the past several decades, you will not see him as a conservative or as someone who can connect. >> rick has to decide whether he

wants to win -- >> right. >> or whether he wants to win a theological argument. and if he wants to win, he's got to say, yes, i've said some things in the past that i said as a united states senator, while i believe personally, i'm not going to push forward professionally. i'm not going to ban contracepti contraception, i'm not going to say it's immoral -- live and let live all that stuff. i'm not saying he changes what he thinks is moral and immoral, but it's all a question of emphasis. it is all a question of emphasis. and right now the emphasis is wrong, and when people ask him these questions, he's got to brush it aside and talk about the economy. >> there was a wonderful point i thought yesterday, he said we don't need a new candidate for the republicans, we need a new electorate.

the bases become so utterly whacked up by crazy talk shows and false information and they're not become -- >> if they could only be as reasoned as the professional left. if only -- no, it's -- >> they like him, joe. >> you have a republican electorate that is grasping and trying to find anybody that can beat barack obama. let's move to the super pac story. >> let's do it. i think it actually ties in perfectly. go ahead. >> just two small points about senator santorum. one to your point. he's always spoken this way and believed in these things. >> always. it's who he is. >> now he's in the major leagues, on the big stage. that spotlight is on him all the time. the other component part of it. the media is driving this aspect of the story. he is, indeed, talking about his grandfather and coal mining and growing up in a steel town, but we focus on this stuff. >> but hold on a second, mike.

if you're carl crawford, and you're in the major leagues and you want to be one of the best hitters, when they throw you a curve ball in the dirt, you know what you do? keep your bat on the shoulder. when they engage you on "face the nation" with a question. i'll tell you what i'm going to talk about. this is what people in western pennsylvania are talking about right now. the fact we've got 15% unemployment right now, the fact the jobs have been going away since 1971, the fact that the president has no plans to bring those jobs back here. whatever rick santorum believes, speak to that, keep the bat on your shoulder and shut up. >> i agree. >> get off these stupid side issues. if you wanted to debate those issues, let's have a bible study and have a great debate. but if you're running for president of the united states, talk about how you're going to reform the tax system, save entitlements, and how you're going to bring jobs back to america. and if you can't be focused enough to do that, go home. >> well, that gets to the second

point. he has no discipline. and when he gets going on the stump on tv when he talks about these things, he looks so angry and so judgmental that that's the snapshot that a lot of people are taking away from him. >> all right. let's -- you know what? and by the way, i say this as a guy i like. >> yeah. >> rick is a likable guy. there are a lot of politicians on the left that believe a lot of crazy things that they just keep to themselves. and it allows me to say i like them too. >> crazy things, it's like a long list. a letterman top ten list. >> there are crazy things on both sides. but santorum, he's got to focus. and he's got to keep his bat on the shoulder when they throw him the bad curve ball. let's talk about why rick's in the race, newt's in the race, mitt, he's got a lot of money from a lot of different sources. but this "new york times" story,

a new breed of super donor. it's shocking how few people have been contributing to these super pacs. and let's get jeffrey's take. >> the latest fund raising numbers show mitt romney and president obama are leading all contenders in the presidential race. at the end of january, mitt romney raised almost $63 million. 90% came from donations of $200 or more. but president obama surpasses romney's fund raising by over $40 million. 60% of the president's campaign cash comes from donations of less than $200. >> how much did the president raise? 60 -- what is it? $106 million. >> but the money in the presidential race are coming from super pacs, which are funded by a select few. according to the federal election commission, 25% of all the super pac money in the past year comes from just five wealthy donors.

the biggest spenders of the five are harold simmons, sheldon adelson. simmons has given over $15 million to various independents and carl rove. adelson and his wife have donated $10 million to a super pac aiding newt gingrich. john rogers, a close friend of president obama who donated $2.6 million to a pro-obama super pac. >> right. and trust me, jeffrey knows this, they're talking about the gop, but now that the president has released the hounds, you're going to have democrats on the list, republicans on the list, and a lot of people scratching their heads looking at these numbers. >> i don't know how many people are really scratching their heads. everybody's aghast, though. this is going to be a $6 billion

or $7 billion election cycle. it's all big money. and i think it's interesting we can connect the dots of this story which outlines almost every one of these wall street, wall street, hedge fund, hedge fund. and then you turn to the "wall street journal" today and it says u.s. business is paid 1.2% of national income of gross product in their corporate taxes, the lowest in modern history. why is that? because who's running politics? who's deciding the outcomes? and these are the two dots that need to be connected in the end. this is the game of american politics right now. and it's pretty stark. you now have both parties calling for corporate tax rates to come down even more, supposedly to be offset by reducing loopholes. but we know how that's going to go. we're just in this incredible

race to the bottom where we don't pay -- the rich don't pay taxes in this country and the rich run the campaigns. >> i think we should have debates between the super pac donors. what's the point of having the candidates? we need to know more about their views than we do about the candidates. they're running the show, it seems. >> and both parties end up in the same place. they end up supporting cuts in the corporate taxes. they end up supporting further gutting of the tax system, and it's bipartisan affair. >> you know, one of the largest problems that comes from stuff like this, a couple of them. one, no one with any common sense is going to want to run for public office because you have to spend 90% of your day raising money begging for money. >> you look at the president, over $100 million and romney over $60 million and i sit there going, what rational person would put themselves through that? you know, when i ran, i think the most i ran maybe one cycle i

raised $800,000. and i didn't get on the phone. and even that was, go to receptions and do this. you've got to raise $100 million, $1 billion? to win a presidential race? it's insanity. >> and the other thing, we all talk about and think about the isolation of the presidency, the isolation of the united states senators. well, that's only going to increase because guaranteed the president of the united states isn't hanging around with people who have ever maxed out on their credit cards, who are ever worried about their mortgage, a tuition bill -- >> they do that for show. >> no, they hang around with these people. >> and that's the problem. this "new york times" article is fascinating. everyone should read it just to get a sense of how it works. because it almost -- you got this handful of people, dr. sachs who will pull the strings. >> pulling the strings and setting the policies. >> exactly. we'll talk more about this. >> you know what that reminds me

of? >> hmm? >> dominic strauss-kahn. >> what a defense he has today. >> i'm sorry. >> we should introduce him to rick santorum. >> i just came in from florida late last night, so i have not been reading the new york post this weekend. what happened to this guy? >> well, now he's been arrested for being part of a possible hooker ring where he had the hookers coming. he says he didn't know they were hookers. they were just the wives of friends, you know, who just showed up naked. >> how can his wife -- >> did you see his lawyer's defense? >> what's the defense? >> the lawyers defense at these kinds of parties you are not always clothed. i challenge you to tell the difference between a naked prostitute and a naked worldly woman. >> i can relate. >> this is the lawyer. >> that's the lawyer's defense. and this is what the global

finance has come to. >> you know those kind of parties, right? we know those kind of parties. >> remember that, mike barnicle? i have one thing to say. >> it's ash wednesday, watch it. >> we live on the wrong continent. >> it wasn't like that at all. >> you went to a party where? >> over the weekend. but it wasn't like that at all. >> they don't do that in lancaster, pennsylvania. >> that's not where i was. >> all right. coming up, we're only getting started, and you're right. cnbc's larry kudlow will be here onset. >> love kudlow. we need to debate. >> we've got the president of on council of foreign relations richard haass and peter gammons. up next, politico's top stories of the morning.

but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> keeping with the theme, it's okay to strip some layers off today because temperatures are soaring. we're looking at april-like temps in february out there today. it's going to be unusually warm in almost all of the country. right now already in the 50s and 60s in the deep south. really the only cold spot in the northern plains. we have a storm system located north of wisconsin, it's pumping the warm air up from the south. there's no large snow pack in place. so just like in april when the warm air comes north wards, there's nothing to stop it. that's why we'll see temperatures in the 60s in the philadelphia, d.c., mid-50s around hartford, new york city, chance of showers in northern new england. and check out the heat from denver to dallas. dallas in the mid-70s today and could be 80 degrees tomorrow. looks like colder air will arrive for the weekend. but this has been an incredible, incredible winter. new york city looking at one of the warmest winters ever. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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from 1980 to 1984, mitt romney played wealthy tycoon victor newman on "the young and the restless." this has been get to know the candidates. >> 27 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. the "new york times," governor chris christie pronounced an end to the dark times in yesterday's budget address. the new jersey governor's proposal cuts income taxes by 10% while giving more money to schools, the poor, and meeting all of the state's pension

obligations. the $32 billion budget is a $3.7 billion over last year. governor christie will be one of our guests on "morning joe" tomorrow. look forward to that. and the "wall street journal" talking about real news. as if the white castle burger chain couldn't get any better. the company is now starting to offer -- >> oh, that's great. >> -- wine with its sliders. plans to tests the idea with some winos on the street in indiana. speaking of winos, how about that for a segue. let's go to the politico playbook and talk to executive director jim vandehei. >> he's more of a beer guy, but okay. >> rick santorum's sort of in a new role here in the debate. we've been talking about his unique strategy to win swing voters. >> help us understand. >> for the past 20 minutes or so. but let's talk about this debate. do you think he's going to brush these issues on contraception

and all these social issues to the side? or do you think he's just going to keep -- you've known him for a long time. is he going to keep charging into that gunfire? >> i think a little bit of both. i think he doesn't want the debate to be just about social issues. the social issues i think are a big winner for him with republicans in this primary process. i think you guys were talking earlier in the show about how this is just disqualifying republicans or damaging them long-term. this happens every single cycle when you start to talk about social issues. came up in '04, came up in '08. i remember a lot of debate about george bush, about him mentioning jesus christ as his favorite philosopher, his position on gay marriage. people thought, oh, this is going to scare off swing voters. people adjust their rhetoric, people forget the nastiness of primaries, and you can overcome this. >> so, jim, let me tell you the difference between 2008 and

2012. in 2008, we were debating abortion. which americans are split on. look at every poll. in 2012, we're talking about contraception, and as a pew poll shows 99% of women in america have used contraception. in 2008, 2004, 2000, i don't think i remember hearing about state-sanctioned vaginal probes popping up in any swing state legislatures. >> to be clear, it's not -- rick santorum is not -- i'm not here to defend rick santorum, but he's not on the trail advocating we should outlaw contraception. the debate came up as a result of this debate about health care which is a much more nuanced debate about whether or not -- it's not whether or not people should be able to use contraception. what rick santorum's talking about is pretty mainstream catholic theology that you're not supposed to use birth control. you might not like that, might be a lot of swing voters who don't like that.

that's the catholic church's position on it. he's talking about it -- >> no, no, no -- i've got no problem with the catholic church's position on contraception. in fact, for people that watch this show, we were certainly, i think, leaning forward, so to say, saying the catholic church's right to practice as they wish should not be interfered with by the federal government. but in this case you've got tape out there of rick santorum saying it is wrong for people to use contraception and as a presidential candidate he's going to focus on this and talk about this. listen, i'm the one that has always argued that washington and new york don't understand how socially conservative americans are and they're disconnected. i think in this case, though, they've jumped the shark. >> i agree on that one specific component. but again, i don't think rick santorum's sitting out there in his speeches talking about this

over and over. i'm sure in his heart of hearts he'd rather not be talking about it much rather get to that debate and talk about romney care and obama's health care plan and the economy. and i think that's to the original question on the debate, i think that'll be his technique, he's a pretty agile debater. i think this is a great forum for him. the stakes are enormous. if he wins michigan and it's completely plausible he does win michigan, this is going to be one of the craziest races we've ever covered. there'll be no end in sight. it'll be inconceivable it'll end in the next month or two. it takes everything romney has said about his inevitability and his electability and throws it out the window. there's a great debate and the drama's fabulous. >> jim, you've known rick for a long time, i've known rick for a long time. you know, when i hear republican women starting to be very concerned about this, when i --

when i hear rick santorum talking to crowds about the president's "phoney theology," is this how he's campaigned in the past? does he come back and say, oh, no, no, no, i wasn't talking about the president's phony theology. >> in the past, he's campaigned as a much more traditional politician trying to bring things home to pennsylvania. it wasn't always about social issues. but what you have to understand about santorum is, personally he's a very, very conservative, socially conservative catholic. and even by modern catholic standards, he is in the very conservative side of the catholic church. he basically takes the theology you hear from the pope and believes in it all the way down. >> great. >> even the most controversial aspects. when you talk about that in a political context, stuff he

might talking about in a church where he talks about satan and whether satan is basically an evil force moving against america right now. when you're talking about that in church in a religious setting and pull it out, to a lot of voters, it strikes them as exotic and makes it hard for him to connect with swing voters. he's talking about his faith in a way i believe he passionately believes in it in a religious context. >> this isn't new news about rick santorum, it's not. this is more about mitt romney, obviously. people have leaned toward him and thought, oh, my gosh, look at what rick santorum believes. he has for a long time. >> it's 6:34, and i want to underline this. >> okay. >> because i don't want my words wretched from their proper context as justice rehnquist once wrote. but i am glad that rick santorum is a conservative catholic. i grew up around conservative catholics. i am still connected in a very

real and meaningful way with a lot of conservative catholic organizations. i am not talking about his personal beliefs. i'm talking about what he does on the campaign trail and how that's going to impact him if he becomes the republican party's nominee. i know there are a lot of people out there that don't understand subtlety. and i want to be really clear that i'm not mocking him for believing in the theology of the catholic church. >> i'm not surprised. >> right. and there -- >> doesn't belong in the public political terrain. i mean the church/state divide, it's just become utterly and completely muddied up with all of this. and it's just not going to work. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. >> take care. >> we'll talk to you soon. coming up, trouble in denver where someone does the unthinkable, criticize tim tebow.

>> what? >> uh-uh. one of his teammates. one of his teammates. sports is next, plus, president obama sings the blues. we'll show you. keep it here on "morning joe." [ tom ] we invented the turbine business right here in schenectady. without the stuff that we make here, you wouldn't be able to walk in your house and flip on your lights. [ brad ] at ge we build turbines that power the world. they go into power plants which take some form of energy, harness it, and turn it into more efficient electricity. [ ron ] when i was a kid i wanted to work with my hands, that was my thing. i really enjoy building turbines. it's nice to know that what you're building is gonna do something for the world. when people think of ge, they typically don't think about beer. a lot of people may not realize that the power needed to keep their budweiser cold and even to make their beer comes from turbines made right here. wait, so you guys make the beer? no, we make the power that makes the beer.

so without you there'd be no bud? that's right. well, we like you. [ laughter ] ♪

well, we have a story out of denver, colorado. >> what's that? >> tebow mania may have given way to lin-sanity. but that doesn't mean the drama surrounding the denver quarterback is completely on hold. fellow quarterback brady quinn is apologizing for criticizing tim tebow in an interview with "gq" magazine. he suggested the reason he was passed over as the team's starting quarterback was because of tebow's popular following. not necessarily because he was skilled. quinn said, "i felt like the fans had a lot to do with that. just because they were chanting his name. there was a big calling for him. no, i don't have any billboards, that would have been nice." quinn added, we've had a lot of luck, i guess. >> the guy took a losing team and took them to the playoffs, lucky. >> the story gets better. after the interview hit the newsstands, brady quinn went on twitter to apologize writing,

"the comments attributed to me in a recent magazine article are in no way reflective of my opinion of tim and the broncos" begging the question, why did you say it in the first place? but anyway, brady went on to say, tim deserves a lot of credit for our success and i'm happy for him and what he accomplished. most importantly, he's a great teammate. quinn went on to tweet that he reached out to tebow to quote, clear this up. >> that's all you got? >> that's it. we're running out of time. >> so the red sox. we're going to go down there. >> it's incredible. >> is it great? >> it's incredible. >> are they down there? >> pitchers and catchers reported sunday. >> bobby v. you and me and bobby v. >> he is great. never met someone with more energy. mika can attest to that. >> he has a lot of energy. >> is that what you call it? good energy. okay.

>> exactly who is sheldon adelson, besides the man funneling millions of dollars into newt gingrich's super pac. that is next. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy,

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♪ welcome back at 45 past the hour. a live look at capitol hill in washington, d.c. and joining us here in new york, associate editor for "forbes" magazine steve bratoni who scored an interview with sheldon adelson. it's a fascinating article. welcome to the show. >> thanks for having me. >> i'm going to read some quotes from him from your piece. the "billion dollar bet" it's called. i'm against very wealthy people

attempting to or influencing elections. but as long as it's doable, i'm going to do it. because i know that guys have been doing it for years if not decades and they stay below the radar by creating a network of corporations to funnel their money. i have my own philosophy and i'm not ashamed of it. i gave the money because there was no other legal way to do it. i don't want to go through ten different corporations to hide my name, i'm proud of what i do, and i'm not looking to escape recognition. >> there you go. >> that's one way of equivocating. >> and he's saying, hey, these are the rules of the game. if i'm allowed to do it -- >> even though it's wrong. >> well, he says i'm against wealthy people attempting to or influence elections. >> he's not saying it's wrong. the rules are off. as long as it's part of the game, i'm going to do it. if i'm going to go for a touchdown, i'm going to score seven points, i'm not going to kick a field goal --

>> that sounds very wall street to me. >> let me ask you this, mika. whose approach do you like better? >> oh, here we go. i know where you're going. >> where am i going? >> you're going to say whose rules do you like better? the rules sheldon adelson or the rules of the president? >> would you prefer his take george soros' tact and sets up all of these shields, all of these corporations and makes it harder to figure out where he's connected and where he's not connected? or a guy that says i'm not going to play hide the ball. >> i'm just saying if you think it's wrong and then you do it, it's -- >> they want to win. this is both sides, they're saying, you know, this is the election. they're going to twist every rule, push it to the edge. he's saying i'm going to push it to the edge because he thinks obama is totally off, thinks we're sliding into socialism and he's going to do whatever it takes to beat him and he's backing romney now, but he said, i like -- he's backing gingrich

now but he says i like romney, i like santorum, i hate paul. he's going to back anyone but paul, whoever the gop picks, that's his guy. >> you have to like him in a sense for not hiding. it is legal, and he's not hiding and he's just putting his money where his mouth is in a sense. did you feel he will switch soon to romney? that he's going to just let gingrich hang out to dry soon? >> i think he'll support gingrich as long as gingrich is in. if they're old friends and the $11 million he gave is nothing. that's the equivalent of a millionaire staying two nights in the sands. he's worth $20 billion. that's like loaning his buddy $40. and once gingrich decides to bow down, whoever the gop picks, he's going to put all those casino chips behind. >> that's messed up. >> isn't this out of control? >> completely and totally absurd. why are we defending or not defending this guy? this is our country and it's totally being wrecked.

>> what do you think of his -- >> he's a completely, by the way, unlikable guy. and do we need major gambling influence and guy has played all over the world with governments so he gets the licenses and charges up and down as a core leader of our politics? come on. >> let me ask you again -- and i'm not attacking george soros, but i don't think you like -- >> it's not about -- it's about this wrecked system. why don't we say it? and why don't we -- >> but if you're going to attack this man for doing this -- >> i'm not attacking this man. i'm saying how pathetic it is as grown-ups we sit around the table saying this is what democracy is right now. >> we're not grown-ups saying this is what democracy -- these are the rules of the game. >> these rules are miserable made by five supreme court justices. >> answer my question. who do you prefer? whose approach do you prefer?

george soros who is doing things legally and as a citizen of the country he can do it and i have no problem with him doing it, setting up all of these organizations to shield his money and funnel his money so it's harder to trace it back to who he's contributing to? as opposed to a guy who writes a check and this is who i am and what i'm doing. >> i want us all to say as group-ups grou grown-ups, this is completely rotten -- >> if you can answer my question. >> it has nothing to do with these two. it has to do with the kind of country we have, joe. but the fact of the matter -- >> you attacked one man. you attacked one man in saying he's a bad person. you said he's a bad person, jeffrey. >> joe, listen -- joe, please. >> you're yelling. don't yell at me. >> you do this each time. >> no, i don't. >> i'm not talking -- i'm not attacking one side. i've been saying from the beginning that the system is

rotten. and we should understand how rotten it is and that what we're calling democracy is not democracy in this country. and how did it get this way? >> you called this one man -- >> yes, but five supreme court justices -- >> do you think he's rotten? >> five supreme court justices threw out 110 years of campaign law because scalia and others said that corporations are people that have free speech of the first amendment. >> right. >> and this craziness, this idea that now corporate money without control can run america is going to wreck the country for your children and my children. and that's what i'm talking about. i'm not talking about mr. adelson, i'm not talking about any other individual. i'm talking about the fact that we have a list in the paper today of billionaires who are controlling our politics, driving our government into

ruin, by the way, with systematic policies to favor themselves and we call this our democracy right now. that's all i'm saying. >> would you call our democracy -- because you're acting like citizens united was where we leapt off the cliff. the president of the united states got elected by raising close to $1 billion last year. >> i wrote a book as you know this past year bemoaning both sides saying this is a wrecked system. our country is being wrecked by this. i'm not talking about democrats or republicans. i'm talking about the fact that what we call democracy is completely out of control. and by operating on standards, joe, that no other democracy -- >> so, steven, let's let steven actually talk for a second. how much is this man willing to spend? >> that's the thing. he said i could give $10 million, i could give $100. the scary thing, they could give $1 billion.

they could personally fund and not even notice. they'd both still be, you know, the top 10, 15 richest person in the country, wouldn't change the lifestyle a bit. $1 billion, i'm still worth $24 billion. and it's nothing. basically a u.s. politician is the cheapest investment in the market right now. you can pay $250,000, which is nothing to these guys and get a direct line to obama or who else. you can buy a senator now for $5 million. you could have your senator win, you know, it's for nothing. >> could newt gingrich be revived? >> i don't know if newt could be revived. it's not like they could give $1 billion to anybody, but it goes back and forth. you could buy all the air time, anything. we're going to have an arms race. these two sides throwing all the money. and at the end of the day, we're back at the same place. the people who win are probably the advertisers and the networks. >> they buy the policies. >> don't forget that romney has said corporations are people and that's because the only people he has are corporations.

>> so, again, another point of personal privilege here. i've got no problem with george -- i don't want anybody on the left or right to go, oh, joe's attacking george soros. i'm saying this system for a long time has been corrupt, and there are some people that say put it out on the table. george soros plays by the rules, so does sheldon adelson. if you don't like it, change the rules. >> yes, let's change the rules. >> steve bertoni -- >> thank you for joining our debate. >> the cover story of the new issue of "forbes" magazine. that's a great article, i read it late last night. more "morning joe" in a moment. is

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♪ all right. tina brown, thank you for being on. the cover of "newsweek" is the s.e.a.l.s. fantastic issue. thank you very much. and still ahead, doris kearns-goodwin, chuck todd, and alex wagner. we'll be right back. chase scene, netflix coming soon extra butter tickets, swoon penguin journey junior mints moviefone evil prince

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♪ you've changed your mind on super pacs. used to be morally wrong and now you're going to take the money? >> i still think the citizens united decision made by the supreme court was the wrong decision. what i've said consistently is we're not going to just unilaterally disarm. >> in light of mr. small donor's reversal on super pacs, i have just one thing to say. >> welcome young pac walker, feel the power of the green

side, embrace your destiny, join me and together we will rule the galaxy! the galaxy! you are now darth bama. >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> wow. i don't even know what that was about. >> you know what? we don't -- nobody can do production like that. you think can t.j. do production like that? and then you go to a shot of t.j., and you know what he's doing? >> what? >> eating glue. we just don't have that around here. look who just dropped in. >> alex wagner. >> what are you doing waking up this early? >> i didn't go to sleep last night, mardi gras. >> along with mike barnicle and jeffrey sachs. we have alex wagner. you're on at noon. you like that schedule. >> it's a little more forgiving if you want complete sentences.

>> and doris kearns-goodwin. good to have you all onboard this morning. this should be good. presidents day. >> it is very exciting. give us a little perspective. we were talking last hour about the republican party. and, of course, this race, as well. give us a little historical perspective about what we're going through. jim vandehei in his politico report talking about how santorum wins, we could be moving toward the first contested convention since '76. >> well, you know, first of cou.

this is a man that no politician talks about these days. they'll talk about t.r., jefferson. how did the father of our country basically get put to the back of the bus? >> certainly in historians' minds, he's still way up in the front of the bus. he created precedence for the presidency. the whole idea you only have two terms, not more than that. don't worry about him, he's doing fine with history. but i think the important thing in terms of the rick santorum thing and the social issues you were talking about in the last hour is that what the framers wanted was a country where there would be freedom from religion and for religion. and the idea that somehow they were going to be asking who is the better christian? who is really religious in this race? even ronald reagan during his conservative time, there was no way in 1984 he was talking about the kind of issues that have now

gone beyond the consensus of where the country's at. contraception as you were talking about earlier, women's rights, gay rights, we've moved beyond these social issues that the republican party is talking about. and you're right. if they go too far, there may be some republican establishment guys who say, wait a minute, neither of these characters or any of these characters are going to win. the problem is in a primary system, there are no bosses left. there used to be bosses who could broker things at conventions. i don't know who they are anymore. that's the problem. >> isn't it fascinating, in the american system the presidential candidate, the front runner becomes the symbol for the entire party. we all know if jeb bush were leading the field right now, people might be talking about his family, what his brother did wrong, but they wouldn't be talking about all of these religious issues and contraception and i'll guarantee you, jeb would've picked up the phone and called mcdonnell and said, hey, you know this

virginia bill that talks about forced vaginal probes, we may want to stay away from that until '13. and mcdonnell would say, gotcha, governor, and put down the phone. santorum's at the head of the pack now, so now we're talking about social issues. before it was mitt and we were talking about the 1%. isn't that fascinating? >> the real problem is in a country like ours which depends on ordinary people running themselves, depends on compromise and debate, you cannot have a religious war going on at the same time where someone says i'm 100% right on this issue or you're 100% wrong. the whole idea lincoln was fighting for in a country where it's not czars, dictators, kings running us, and as a result, we have to come together to debate issues. if you argue that environmental debate is theology on the one side, right and wrong, how can you come to a compromise about what we should do about climate change? it makes no sense in a democracy and it's a scary prospect. >> so as we head into another

debate tonight before michigan and arizona, the primaries coming up. and, you know, before we get to the nuts and bolts of the news and where these candidates stand, you made an interesting point about romney, it being about the 1%, santorum, it being about social issues. in either case -- >> newt, it was about moon bases. >> when are they going to get what the argument should be about? and are they completely missing the boat here? am i the only one that feels that way? i doubt it. >> i doubt it. >> i doubt it. all right. i'll move on to the polls. actually i wanted to know what you thought they ought to do tonight. and an nbc news marist poll out shows mitt romney and rick santorum among a statistical tie. so far, romney's efforts to play up his michigan roots are not registering with voters. the poll shows 88% say the candidate's ties to the state

doesn't affect their vote. just 10% say it makes them more likely to support his candidacy. in arizona, the poll shows mitt romney with a double digit lead. he leads rick santorum by 16 points. but the cnn "time" opinion research poll shows a closer race. rick santorumny and santorum are within the margin of error separated by just four points. >> jeffrey, you wanted to jump in. this is close. >> well, i thought the point you made was really superb. >> thank you, jeffrey. >> it was. that we don't have parties right now. >> right. >> we have people that almost come out of nowhere, in fact, and then the parties are behind them. and this is also a point that doris was making that we don't have the party guiding the nomination. it is this individualistic approach right now. so we've had like president obama himself who basically came out of nowhere, jimmy carter who

came out of nowhere, bill clinton who came out of nowhere. and it changes our politics very much. the parties don't create seasoned leaders who then represent them as in a parliamentary country, for example. so i thought that it is another measure of this instability. and then you add on what we talked about last hour that if you get one billionaire backer that can promote you to stardom in this brief flurry. and it's a pretty unstable process. >> you know, there was something -- >> it is. unstable is the word. and alex, you look at historical trends, there is something that while it may offend people that want their politicians pure, there's something about a guy like bill clinton getting elected in '78, getting beaten up and losing in '80, then having to climb back and fight to get elected in arkansas, a conservative state. every two years. you could say the same thing on

the other side, a republican like john mccain that scratches and claws and fights to get their way through. the rough edges get rounded off. we live in a world now where a guy like jeffrey said can pop out of nowhere, or a woman, with the internet to organize, and with a couple of billion dollars from one person? they can take over our country. it is that instability is the word. >> i was watching the pbs clinton documentary and you look at that archival footage of clinton coming up. and the thing that strikes me is how much of a political animal he is. it makes him a stronger fighter. and you look at both barack obama and mitt romney and what i think the common thread they share is the fact that they're pragmatists that don't necessarily have a taste for the political game. and given where we are, given where congress is, given how divided the american public is, i think to a certain degree, the office of president necessitates someone who loves the game, who

is going to be a fighter, maybe not war wounds, but has a passion to paraphrase -- >> maybe an instinct. >> the fire in the belly as it were and experience is one way of developing that. >> and, mike, when i first got to washington, i loved the idea of the outsider that had never been to washington, didn't know how to the game was played, fresh start. that's one thing if you're a back bench congressman or congresswoman. it's another thing again if we have a system that's possibly so unstable that you could get somebody from the outside that had no idea how to -- let's say a ceo, and some ceos or good politicians, some or horrific. let's say some ceo decides, well, i've made my billions, i'm going to write a couple billion dollar checks. ross perot, if he were 25 years younger, he could do it today and possibly get elected. >> here's mr. ceo and he's

thinking of giving back to his country and he's made $7 billion. and he's running company "x" for the last 20 years and now he's going to run for congress. is it true you had an affair in 1992? we want to know? my readers want to know. we want to know everything about your private life. we want your wife's income tax returns, everything. he's not going to run. great people, great people are not going to run. what we fail to figure out and fail to recognize is that the system, the country has changed so much. you say people come from nowhere, no, they didn't come from nowhere. there is now a vested political class in this country that can see the future, they define the future in two-year increments or six-year increments or four-year increments. they don't serve in the military, they largely go to private schools and good colleges, they have no frame of reference to live paycheck to paycheck. none, zero. >> and they don't need it

because the billions are enough through the media to get them in office. >> well, the scenario laid out had everything to do with the media. >> take a look at the talent level in the united states senate and congress today and compare it to 30 years ago. >> that is the truth. >> it is devastatingly different. devastatingly different. >> i agree. >> doris. >> i agree. >> and 30 years ago, i suspect people were saying the same thing. i look at the giants in office when i was in office. things have changed in a decade. >> i think what mike is saying is right. i'm not sure the same quality of people are willing to run for public office today. it means spending your time dialing for dollars. 80% of your time talking to potential donors. you're out on the campaign trail, you're in receptions rather than talking with people. if i were going to give advice to president obama, it would be to go on a whistle stop tour this fall. go to the democratic congressmen and senators, get a mandate for

what he wants to do so that at least one side or the other, if you're going to do that as a republican, we need to have somehow the idea that people are in politics to do something. why would you want to be in the senate or the house in you hate government? would you want to be there if your private life is exposed? in the old days, they were only relevant if they affected your public responsibilities. would we not have wanted fdr as our leader in world war ii because he once had an affair with lucy mercer. party leaders use their judgment to determine who -- they made some screw-ups, no question. harding wasn't a great choice, fdr, was great. >> you were talking before about mitt romney and barack obama not necessarily loving the game. doris just asked who would ever get into the senate if they didn't like it. well, barack obama. and you talk to anybody they will tell you the president didn't like being there.

but most sane, rational people -- no, i'm dead serious, would not like being in the united states senate in 2012. >> well, no, and i will -- i think the senate that barack obama was part of was different -- it was pre-tea party. we are at an all-time low in terms of congressional approval rating. he thought he could go in there and make a difference. would barack obama run today? i have no idea. i do have a question for doris, though, as we talk about back in the days. estimated that george washington's net worth was $500 million, which would make mitt romney's fortune pale in comparison, and we talk about wealth and back in the day and whether it was an issue at all. and from the historical perspective. >> adjusted for inflation, that means he had four horses. >> i think the wealth is never the point. and it's whether or not people can connect to normal people. fdr had plenty of money.

jfk had plenty of money. it's not that, it's whether your life experiences are such that you can connect to people. have you learned to overcome fate? i'm not sure mr. romney has shown that. >> and his comments about not being worried about the very, very poor. that was the first time i cringed. >> i love doris' idea of getting a mandate also if you're going to win, you better be able to do something afterwards and that whistle stop tour is a great idea. it's a great idea. >> well, if you want proof, further proof of the isolation of a lot of candidates once they get to the top tier running for president, you're at the top tier. take a look at what's been discussed over the course of the last six weeks. they've talked about these social issues when, in fact, they have an issue sitting right there in front of them, like an 85-mile-an-hour fast ball coming across the plate. you can see the seams on it. and the issue is the deficit. they don't talk about the

deficit. it's something that every family in america can relate to. you can't spend more than you take in. and if you do, continually, constantly, you're going to go bankrupt. >> i'm going to circle back to doris. i'm not letting you off the hook about george washington on his birthday. he is -- let me try this another way. he's like the -- he's like america's mona lisa. you look at that picture of him and you don't know how to read it. you can embrace t.r. you can even embrace the quirkiness and brilliance of thomas jefferson. lincoln, who can't embrace abraham lincoln? but george washington in life purposefully made himself a bit remote. and it's remarkable that 230 something years later, historians still have as much trouble embracing him as they

say -- and i'm not comparing him to ronald reagan. but he's like the founding father's version of ronald reagan where everybody knew him, but nobody seemed to know him. >> no, i do think you're right about that. some people have asked me after i finished my new book on t.r., where am i going to go after that? what other big president. why not go back to george washington? and to be honest, i'm not sure i could penetrate him. i think there have been good books on him, but it's much harder to get to george washington. i'm not sure why. i don't know enough about him to know why he becomes so mysterious, still. but the most important thing is at a time when everything was up for grabs, what would this president be like? could he be a dictator? the fact he left after two terms, central to our country's history. he could've stayed his whole life and from then on, we'd have much more something close to a kingship. he was like a democratic king. so for that we have to honor

him. but i think you're right, the inpi -- i don't know if i could live with george washington every day. >> and the thing about washington was, he was a self-made man in every way. emotionally he was a self-made man where his close aides said he had just the worst temper in the world, but he learned to measure absolutely everything he did. everything was calculated. >> i think it was the wooden teeth. >> that must have done it. >> stiff upper lip. i don't know. >> truth be told, after doris finished the book on t.r., she's had this real thing about milliard fillmore. >> write about the red sox and you can finish it, the finale can be like this november when they win the world series again. >> i think it's going to be a great year. i agree that bobby valentine has energy, vitality, and the other

players are saying it. and we need that kind of leadership. it's very exciting. i can't wait to go to spring training. >> it is. >> me too. doris, thank you very much. >> yeah, unbelievable. >> we'll give you a stun gun. >> stick around. still ahead, cnbc's larry kudlow will be here onset, plus peter gammons from florida. up next, chuck todd to help break down the brand new polling from michigan and arizona. is it fast? it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street legal. ♪ is it safe?

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♪ welcome back at 25 past the hour. joining us now from washington, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of the "daily rundown" chuck todd. chuck, good morning. >> good morning. always exciting. we've got polls.

>> yeah, we do. and i'm looking at them. and michigan's going to be interesting. let's go through the gop field to michigan voters. first of all, it's pretty much neck and neck between mitt romney and rick santorum. >> it is. my favorite nugget in here is the momentum versus organization aspect of this. romney simply leads because he's banked some votes. he leads by 23 points among most folks who have voted in michigan, which is about 16% according to our pollsters. you take those out, santorum actually leads among those folks having voted. a similar story in arizona. but in arizona, it's half of the electorate that's already voted. >> wow. >> a little bit of a surprise to the romney campaign. >> well, i think the romney campaign feels frankly vindicated that, number one, negative ads are working and number two, their organization. the fact they did spend money early and they've done this in other states, but banking votes

matters, especially when you're up against momentum, right? santorum has been about momentum. well, it was the same thing. he had the same sort of quick advantage in florida. now, granted in florida, the negative ad campaign worked even better, frankly, than it's working in michigan. but you combine those two factors and we're seeing potentially the same story in michigan on a smaller scale with what happened in florida. organization and negative ads. >> mitt romney has deep ties to michigan, he was born there, his father was governor. you would think that would help, right? >> you would but, you know, look at the track record a little bit of all folks named romney. first of all mitt romney himself hasn't lived there since he was 18. other than george romney winning three times, the only other romney to win a statewide race was mitt four years ago and only with 39% of the votes.

i think we sometimes all over -- and it happens in a lot of states. a name is just a name sometimes, it can help you get better crowds at your first events. but beyond that, sometimes, that's all sometimes it can help with. >> jeffrey? >> chuck, what can you say about the republican electorate in michigan? it surprises me, frankly, how strong santorum is running. i don't think of it inherently as his base there. >> well, there's a few things. look, there has always been a strong pro-life electorate in michigan republican politics. and it's outside of the detroit metro area. and what's interesting here geographically, romney runs very strong in, you know -- and i loved we were playing a little bit from the gross point-blank soundtrack, but all around the detroit suburbs frankly where he grew up. santorum does very well in the more rural parts, western michigan, and that's always been

a little more socially conservative. and this has happened in the michigan republic primaries. basically outside of detroit, a lot of michigan is more like iowa. well, and we know how well santorum did in a place like iowa. >> the auto bailout. >> i want to skip down to michigan voters and the question asked, was the auto bailout a good idea? let alone the fact that mitt romney has deep ties to michigan, this could be a problem. 50% think it's a bad idea, 42% -- >> just among republicans? >> just among republicans. it's just a tough issue for both of these candidates, is it not? >> it is, they've both been anti-bailout. ironically, romney does best among those who thought the bailout -- republicans thought the bailout was a good idea. and santorum wins among those who thought the bailout was a bad idea. so it really does sort of break

on ideological lines. but the bigger story when it comes to the bailout and michigan, let's stop pretending michigan is on the battleground in november, it is not. the president leads romney 51-33. 61%. >> let's put that up, guys, really quickly. while chuck's talking over this. this is telling. yeah, telling that t.j. put up the wrong -- >> the wrong graphic. >> can you believe that? >> stop eating the glue! no, i want the general election match-up, t.j. have arizona ready. let's talk first while t.j.'s getting the elmer's out of his mouth. let's talk first about michigan. the president is blowing out all republicans. >> he is. >> and it is because of the bailout. you look at it. romney is who runs best against him, 51-33, the president, a majority believes he deserves credit for the bailout, just over 50%. 63% overall approve of the bailout.

61% of independents in michigan thought the bailout was a good idea. michigan is done. the idea. and one of romney's points was he was one of the only republicans that was going to expand the map. well, putting new hampshire and michigan back into the battleground, he may get new hampshire back in the battleground, michigan's not in the battleground. let's stop pretending it is. >> in the arizona primary, romney's ahead of santorum pretty comfortably. how does that match-up? because arizona's going to be a swing state obviously. >> it could be, but it's not there yet. now a match-up with romney, it was 45-40. if you look at it, the one thing that caught my eye -- >> who's ahead? >> romney's ahead 45%, 40%. the only thing if i were the

president's campaign team, among hispanics the president only led romney 50%, 33%. if you assume the president can get 60% plus hispanics in arizona, republicans have been a little more competitive among hispanics, third, fourth generation hispanics than in other states. but if the president can get over 60, for instance, that number, 45, 40 number ends up more like 45-43. when you look at it, joe, there seems to be a ceiling for now on a democratic number here. i can't figure out how the president gets past 47% or 48% in arizona even on his best day. >> really quickly, and i'm not exactly sure why this is the case. but in swing states, the president's doing great in other states like michigan. in swing states like ohio, florida, arizona, the president's weaker. first of all, why is that?

and do you see a way forward for the president winning if he can't win ohio, florida, and arizona? i'm not suggesting that, but right now if the election were held today, he'd be in big trouble in those states. >> it's a little bit harder. but all three states have one thing in common. they're older -- the older white vote, which is not doing that well economically is not yet still seems to be leaning toward the republicans. ohio, i know that when you talk to the obama campaign, one of the reasons they're so focused on north carolina. their sort of southern strategy more so than in ohio is they look at ohio and it's a state that's getting older, whiter, and smaller. there's not a large young population there, it's a state that's shrinking in size, they're happy about that, it's worth two less electoral votes than it was four years ago. because when you look at the in numbers and the one consistent

measure, older, white voters have not -- have always been the hardest group for the president to win over. older white -- seniors in arizona, florida, that's what those two states have in common, but ohio, as well. >> chuck, it's alex wagner. i know you're not a betting man, so i'll ask you to read some tea leaves. if mitt romney pulls this thing out in michigan and has a solid win in arizona, are we done talking about rick santorum? >> i would hesitate to ever put any of these guys say you're done, done talking about any of them because i think we've learned -- the lesson to be learned through all of these primary campaigns is conservatives are not sold on mitt romney period. among very conservative voters, the base of the republican party, about a third, a little more than a third of all voters in michigan, santorum leads by 30 points. and if you can't get the base of your party enthusiastic about

your candidacy, you're going to have trouble putting this thing away. and romney, every time he thinks he's about to put this thing away, the base of the party says, no, not until you make a better sale with us and you haven't done it. let's see what friday's about. friday, when romney puts out this new economic plan, does he give conservatives something fiscally? they know they're never going to get something out of him on social issues or a few other issues. but if he gives them something fiscally that they believe. that's part of the problem for romney. maybe then he might see his numbers move a little bit. i think until that happens, yeah, he could win michigan by three or four points and it's still not going to be done. >> what if he loses? >> if he loses, then it's thunder dome. >> oh, lord. >> thunder dome? >> there are no rules. it's thunder dome. there's no rules. >> oh, gosh.

>> was that where they -- was that where they were like -- >> i don't know, everybody put on make-up, grabbed a gun, and started, i don't know -- >> chuck todd thank you. >> going to tampa. >> we'll see you on the "daily rundown" right after "morning joe." up next, breaking news from syria. we'll be right back. progresso. it fits! fantastic! [ man ] pro-gresso they fit! okay-y... okay??? i've been eating progresso and now my favorite old jeans...fit. okay is there a woman i can talk to? [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less.

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all right, 39 past the hour. we're following a developing story where just this morning we get word that two western journalists were killed in syria when government troops shelled rebel positions in the city of homs. the victims are american war reporter marie culvin and french photo journalist remi osclich. at least 19 people were killed in the attack. and two other western journalists were injured. france is calling on the syrian government to immediately stop the attacks to allow medical support to the victims there. we'll be following that. >> jeffrey, the situation in syria just gets more grim by the day. >> they're sliding into full civil war and probably with

outside intervention on its way again. so we just have -- >> you think so? >> i do think so. >> where's that going to be coming from? nato? >> the same thing we saw in libya, they'll be within europe, a push to put troops in. the middle east is still a complete powder keg, and this violence is spreading. it's terrible. and what a tragedy for today with these reporters and the other people killed. >> awful. >> but this is spreading and this is absolutely escalating. >> assad is his father's son. >> well, he is -- >> repeating -- >> of course he's a ruthless dictator representing a small minority in the country. but the whole place is a powder keg. and it is exploding and it's going to be a lot of violence ahead. >> we'll be following this story more throughout the morning. dr. jeffrey sachs, thank you very much. alex wagner, thank you. >> thanks for waking up early

this morning. >> i stayed up late, joe. >> we'll see you at noon on "now." up next, the president on council of foreign relations, richard haass. >> his ideas on how to talk down iran's nuclear ambitions, and catherine crier is here on "morning joe." [ tom ] we invented the turbine business right here in schenectady.

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in and we were talking about syria before. and we need to talk about that with you. i'm going to read -- >> he's got a piece in the "wall street journal" about iran. >> let me read this quote from "the financial times." at these kinds of parties, i challenge you to tell the difference between a naked prostitute and a naked worldly woman. dominique strauss-kahn's lawyer. >> don't play. don't play. >> listen, i was out of town and i came back to read the new york post this morning. what's going on with this guy? is he still in charge of anything? >> no. >> i have a headache. >> do you know him? >> yes. we never met at any parties. on the record. >> parties off the continent are different than they are here -- >> it's in the american interest to pursue a negotiated, a negotiated outcome to the

impasse. so that's -- i don't think everyone feels that way. but that, i'd like to hear more. >> that's a bumpy segue. >> i'm trying to get off dominique strauss-kahn. >> good job. >> richard, take it away. >> sanctions plus clandestine things to slow down the progress. and that alone is not going to do it. they continue to make progress. the two principle alternatives is going to war, which is a risky, expensive business, or living in a world where iran has a nuclear weapon. risky and expensive business. i wrote this piece with my columnist michael levy, we offer some honey and basically say, here's a negotiated possibility. we're not trying to humiliate you, but we're looking for a reasonable negotiated outcome where essentially you would agree to very intrusive, tough inspections and there'd be real limits on what you can do --

>> and what's the honey? >> the honey is de-sanctioning. if you agree to this, there would be de-sanctioning. you would get relief from this latest series of sanctions which dramatically weakens your economy, have hurt your currency badly. >> but they won't do that, will they? any more than -- >> we don't know. i think it's too soon to say that. and one of the reasons we argue is we make it public. we force them to defend to the iranian people why is it they've embarked on an expensive course of action when they have a reasonable, fair alternative? we're not trying to humiliate iran. no one is saying you do not "right to enrich." but there are limits on what iranians can do -- and the more you want to do in a nuclear area, the more you have to open yourself up to inspections. that's the trade-off. >> who would be against this approach? >> well, domestically, there'll be those who will say iran should not be allowed to do anything in the nuclear area.

we have to wipe the slate clean. that's an absolutist position, which is nice in principle but is nonnegotiable. >> do you think there are leaders in washington that want to go to war with iran or want the israelis to? >> well, the administration says they do not want. very clear, they did not want to go to war. i don't think a lot of people want to go to war. there are some people who are willing to go to war simply because the alternative of living with an iranian nuclear capability is too much for them to tolerate. that's the view. >> we need to remember historically, and everything you're saying reflects back to a time when remember the great mushroom cloud commercial and lbj was afraid that goldwater was going to be too bellicose, we were going to have to live with a nuclear china, that was horrific. we are, again, in that sort of circumstance where we need to remember. we've encountered the most devastating consideration. a nuclear china or a nuclear

russia. and we have found a way around that. to negotiate, not to live with uncontrolled, but, in fact, that nuclear china came into the international community and toned down the rhetoric and toned down the behavior. i think as jim baker said diplomacy is not appeasement. there are times we've got to take that deep breath, step back, look at history. >> in the case of china, russia, and others, we agreed to live with them as a nuclear weapon state. in the case of iran, i do not think there's that agreement. >> we didn't want -- there was the debate. what i'm saying, before we agreed to live, there was the debate we couldn't possibly do that. >> and again, there is that debate. and what i'm simply suggesting is we shouldn't. we should not live with a nuclear armed iran, but there is another path and that is negotiation and that's what we should introduce and that's what's missing from our current policy approach. >> mike. >> over the weekend, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff as you just pointed out,

and he's not alone in this, referred to iran as a rational actor on the world stage. >> i'm sorry, who did? >> chairman of the joint chiefs of joints chief of staff. >> that is frightening there is nothing rational and hasn't been since 1979. >> exactly. but they are called a rational act by the chairman of the joint chiefs and several other people on the international stage. don't worry, in the end, they're rational actor. before you even get to the discussion of nuclear weapons, iran's role in what is going on in syria today is horrific. i mean, they are in the middle of it. they are provoking unrest by the minute in the country that -- it's right in front of our face half do we do about this rational actor? >> i think the chairman made a mistake to call iran a rational actress is code talk. let me make it clear, to call them rational that means that deter represents works and that means that you're willing to live with an iran that has nuclear weapons, so i thought that was a mistake to have said that, particularly in places

like israel that doesn't play well to put it bluntly, the whole phrase, mutually assured destruction that doesn't translate well into he bruchl the israelis don't much like that idea. i think for senior american officials to talk about iran as rational is sending out the message that we can somehow live with them as custodians of nuclear weapons. i think that is of questionable wisdom to do that i'm not sure we can. this is a country that send tens of thousands of young men to their death to clear minefields, a country, as you are saying, is extraordinary aggressive in syria on behalf of a government that is killing thousands of its own people. we have to ask ourselves -- >> are they rational? katherine, look at the two headlines, "the new york times" and the supreme court, the roberts court plays a huge role in both. of course, the story about super pacs and the gop race that came out of the decision in 2009 and then the justices taking up affirmative action again. hook emhorns, texas decision. they are back.

>> but the roberts court, if you look at the super pacs issue, i'm sure another challenge to that we got an affirmative action case, health care, the president's health care reform plan coming up. >> which they may put off a decision until 2014. >> may put off a decision. i'm sure there are going to be religious challenges from the catholic church on the hhs decision. the roberts court is going to have a big session ahead of them, respect they? >> this is back to reminding people every presidential election, one of the most important things we are voting on is the composition of the supreme court and it is going to be huge. i was very interested to see they were revisiting affirmative action and i would expect that this court is going to modify that 2003 decision and i think basically eliminate race as a factor. >> now, just explain really briefly, the 2003 decision said you couldn't have specific targets for -- entering freshman class regarding race but you could generally, correct? >> because diversity was a laudable goal and so they could,

in fact, once they got in texas, once they got below the 10% automatic admission for the top 10% grads they could consider that as a diversity element. >> the fact that they are taking this case probably mean that now they are going to move even beyond that and say you can't even look at race as a primary factor? >> it wouldn't surprise me. kennedy was a swing, kennedy could still hold out and be consistent with his 2003 position in saying it cannot be a specific element, but it can be this sort of nebulous consideration. but i would expect the roberts' court to actually come down much harder and say that is not an appropriate consideration. >> there is something really interesting within this case, apart from the case itself, and it gets to our lack of definition over the last 10 or 15 years culturally of the phrase personal responsibility and accountability. in texas, top 10% of high school graduating classes gain automatic admission to the university of texas system.

the young woman who brought this suit didn't make the top 10% of her class so she's still suing. study harder! okay? >> there is that. >> all right. wheel is if justice kennedy follows this logic. >> thank you so much. great to get you on the show. the patriot acts and richard haas as well. >> richard, we hardly knew you. and still ahead, cnbc's larry kudlow on what to expect from mitt romney's revamped tax plan. you are watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. i'm al ways looking out for i'm al small ways to be more healthy. like splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweeteners. this bowl of strawberries is loaded with vitamin c. and now, b vitamins to boot. coffee doesn't have fiber. unless you want it to. splenda® essentials™ are the first and only

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good morning. it is 8:00 on the east coast as we take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set, we have mike barnicle, dr. jeffrey sacks and tina brown. first, we ought to get to politics, the republican presidential field is heading to arizona today to square off in one last debate before tuesday's primaries in michigan and arizona. it has been nearly a month since the candidates last shared a stage. an nbc news marist poll out this morning shows mitt romney and rick santorum in a statistical tie among michigan voters. ron paul and newt gingrich trail the top two contenders over 20%. so far, romney's efforts to play up his michigan roots aren't registering with voters. 88% say the candidate's ties to the state doesn't affect their vote. just 10% say it makes them more

likely to support his candidacy. in arizona, mitt romney leads with a double-digit lead, leads santorum by 16 points but the cnn/"time" opinion research poll shows a closer race in arizona. romney and santorum are within the margin of error separated by just four points. been following the race since you have been off? >> yeah the races are close. i have been following more closely though what the republican front runners have been saying. maybe i have about out of the game too long. no i think i have. >> yeah, no. >> maybe i have. >> no. no. no. >> you know, back in my day and it's been a long time, but back in my day, i would not want my party -- >> yeah. >> to be connected with state-sanctioned vaginal probes. >> the probe, right. >> i don't know. maybe in 2012 what they are doing in virginia helps with swing voters. maybe women want state-sanctioned vaginal probes.

maybe they want front-runners saying that it is immoral to take contraception. maybe, maybe they want a front-runner that is actually going after property test at that moments. i mean, that's just -- >> really good at shooting itself in the foot it is unbelievable. >> see this is shooting yourself in the foot right there. what they are doing is they are looking for weapons and they are just -- they are putting it right -- this theology thing, where rick santorum talks about the president's theology -- >> oh. >> and then tries to say that when he was talking about the president's theology he wasn't talking about the president's theology. >> yeah. there are so many absurd

statements out there here is when you know it is a problem. when my wife, and other republican women, who are pro-life, who are, in fact -- my wife has lectured me on me being insufficiently pro-life on exceptions. >> mm-hmm. >> when they go two weeks ago from talking about how president obama shuouldn't be telling thoe catholics how to do their business to going to lock the front doors 'cause they are scared, you know, of what's gonna happen, they are -- they are all sitting there going who is this guy? who is not just rick santorum, but who are these republicans that are in virginia, that are going around doing this? when you have conservative pro-life women that have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate in their life sitting around a breakfast table as they were this past weekend and i said -- i didn't say a word. i just got up. it was like a focus group r i

was like frank luntz. i was listening to the conservative republican women in florida who have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate in their life going what in the hell is going on with our party? you know there's serious problems. that's all i'm saying. i'm going home now. >> they seem to be throwing it away. >> just saying really stupid things. >> they seem to be throwing it away. >> and again, you know -- >> throwing it away. >> they are not gonna change, the things they are talking about like rick santorum saying that contraception is not okay and when he runs as a presidential candidate, he is going to stop it. and talking about the president's theology and doing all these other things, they are not talking about anything that they are going to be able to change once they get elected president. >> and also -- >> and that's port. a lot of people say joe, you are not sufficiently conservative, you are not fighting the conservative cause. well, i'm not going back to

medieval times, no, i'm not, but also the things that they are talking about on the campaign trail. not going to be enacted, they are just not. all they are doing is offending swing voters. >> and talking about the president's theology, i -- i think that's something that's been tried several times and has not worked. so it's just stupidity. really is. >> you know, like most christians have heard from -- especially evangelicals, judge not that ye be not judged. and when they hear somebody judging anybody's faith. >> doesn't work. >> doesn't matter who they are. >> at this moment in our culture it is just so incredible we have found up after that long, arduous, particularly process with savannah roller, saint santorum, criticizing the president's christianity at a time when we are in the middle of a giant iran crisis, when the economy is topic a in everybody's lives and we have

these guys talking about the develop and, you know, theology it is just -- >> scary part about it -- >> all this stuff on u tube the world, like the whole perception of the united states which supposedly republicans care about, imagery in the world, used to be a great power, imagine how this is being received in -- overseas. >> you look at it -- it is one thing, tina, like if george w. bush asked in iowa in 2000 who is your favorite philosopher, jesus christ. around here, a lot of people may not have liked it, that's good. you know what if he follows jesus' teaching, that's good, but this is just taking it to a bizarre level. i mean, mike, those republicans and independents and democrats that you said you saw voting for scott brown, helping a republican win a democratic state what are they thinking when they see this stuff?

>> they are frightened where the republicans have been going now for at least a month, maybe longer than a month. at one level, you can sort of understand the republican primary campaigns going after niche voters on the far rights, kate attorney general them rhetorically, you sort of get that but over the last month or so with the -- with -- especialcy south especial cy -- especially santorum, you wonder if this is the republican version this year of weapons of mass destruction. their own words, which will be used against them this fall, no matter hot nominee is running against president obama. they have -- they have frightened large numbers of women in the middle, both republican and independents. the most important voting block this fall probably will be independent women. it appears they have written them off. a lot of these statements, mika are not just frightening women in the middle, frightening

women if on the right. frightening very conservative women. >> these are basic things that are stunning when you hear them coming out of rick santorum's mouth, the way he describes some things. if you read what he said, if you read what he has written, and this is the problem. people haven't been looking and all of a sudden, he starts emerging, they take a look, they take a listen and they are shocked what the they have got. this is the way he has been for many, many years. he just happens to also be an affable guy who can connect a little better than mirks but if you take a look at his policies, quite frankly, his economic policies and some of the votes and choices he has made over the past several decades, you will not see him as a conservative or as someone who can connect. >> rick has to decide whether he wants to win or whether he wants to win a theologic argument. if he wants to win, he has got say yes, i have said some things in the past that i said as a united states senator that i -- while i believe personally, i'm

not going to push forward professionally, i'm not going to push forward -- i'm not going to try to ban contraception. i'm not going to say that it is immoral for women to use contra -- live and let live, all that stuff. i'm not saying that he changes what he thinks is moral and immoral, but it is all a question of emphasis. it is all a question of emphasis. and right now the emphasis is wrong and he has got -- when people ask him these questions, he has got to brush it aside and talk about the economy or he is going to lose. >> he is really surging. you know, michael tamasky made a wonderful point on the daily beast i think yesterday. he said we don't need a new candidate for the republicans, we need a new elector rat. the base has become so utterly whacked up, it seems, by crazy talk shows and false information and they are now become -- >> if they could only be as reasoned as the professional left. if only -- now, it's not --

>> they like him, joe. >> you have a republican electorate that is grass wering and trying to find anybody that can beat barack obama. let's move to the super pac story. >> let's do it. i think it actually nice perfectly. go ahead. just two small points about senator santorum. one, to your point. he has always spoke than way and believed in this thing. >> always. who he is. >> now he is in the major league, on the big stage. he is in the spotlight all the time. the other component is the media is driving the aspect of this story, he is, indeed, talking about his grandfather and coal mining, growing up in a steel town on the stump but we focus on this stuff. >> but hold on a second though, mike, mike, if you're carl crawford and you are in the major league and you want to be one of the best hit hers, when they throw you a curve ball in the dirt, you know what you do you keep your bat on the shoulder? when they engage you on "face the nation" with a question, i'm

not even going there i will tell you what i am going to talk about, because this is what people in western pennsylvania are talking about right now the fact that we have got 15% real unemployment, the fact that the jobs have been going away since 1971. >> yeah. >> the fact that the president has no plan to bring those jobs back here. whatever rick santorum believes, speak to that keep the bat on your shoulder, shut up! >> i agree. >> get off these stupid side issues! if you want to debate those issues, let's have a bible study, we will have great debate, but if you're running for president of the united states, talk about how you are going to reform the tax system, how you are going to save entitlements and how you are going to bring jobs back to america. and if you can't be focused enough to do that, go home. >> well, that gets to the second point. he has no discipline and when he gets going on the stump, on tv, when he talks about these things, he looks so angry and so judgmental that that's the snapshot that a lot of people

have take answer way from him. >> l let's -- let's -- >> women. >> you know, by the way, i say this for a guy i like. no, no i do rick is a likable guy. no, hey there are a lot of politicians on the left that believe a lot of crazy things that they just keep to themselves. and it allow mess to say i like them, too. >> crazy things are such a long list, it is like a letterman top ten list. >> crazy things on both sides, trust me. but with santorum, he's got to focus and necessary the big league and he has got keep his bat on the how old is western they throw him a bad curve ball. let's talk about though why rick is still in the race, newt is still in the ray mitt, a lot of money from a lot of different sources, but this "new york times" story, gop, a new breed of super donor. mika, read the story. shocking how few people contributing to these super pacs. >> two very wealthy people. the latest fund-raising numbers show that mitt romney and

president obama are leading all contenders in the presidential race. at the end of january, mitt romney raised almost $63 million. 90% of that came from donations of $200 or more. but president obama surpasses romney's fund-raising by over $40 million. >> wow. >> 60% of the president's campaign cash comes from donations of less than $200. >> holy cow. >> how much did the president raise? >> 60 -- >> 160 -- it the big money from super pacs funded by just a select few. according to the federal leeks commission, 25% of all the super pac money in the past year comes from just five wealthy donors. the biggest vendors were dallas businessman harold simmons, las vegas casino mogul, sheldon adelson. simmons has given over $14 million to various republican presidential candidates and the

super pac founded by gop strategist karl row. adelson and his wife donated $10 million to a super pac aiding newt gingrich. the only democrat on the top five list is ceo john rogers, a close friend of president obama who donated $2.6 million to a pro-obama super pac. >> right. >> yeah. >> and trust me, and jeffrey knows this they are talking about the gop, but now that the president has released the hounds, you're gonna have democrats on the list, republicans on the list and a lot of people scratching their heads looking at these numbers. >> i don't know how many people are really scratching their heads. everybody's aghast though. this is going to be 6 or 7 billion election cycle. it is interesting, we can connect the dots of this story that outlines almost every one of these wall street, wall street, wall street, hedge fund, hedge fund, hedge fund, then you

turn to the "wall street journal" today, and says, u.s. businesses paid 1.2% of nation a.m. income of gross product in their corporate taxes, the lowest in modern history. but why is that? because who's running politics? who's deciding the outcome? and these are the two dots that need to be connected in the end. this is the game of american politics right now and it's pretty stark. you now have both parties calling for corporate tax rates to come down even more, supposedly to be offset by reducing loopholes, we know how that is going to go we are just in this incredible race to the bottom where we don't pay -- the rich don't pay taxes in this country, the rich run the camp pains. and that's all we have got. i think we should just have debates in the future between the super pac donors. what is the point having the candidates? >> just get around the table.

>> we need to know more about their views that the candidate, they are running the show, it seems. >> and both parties end up in the same place. they end up supporting cuts in the corporate taxes, end up supporting further gutting of the tax system and it's bipartisan affair. >> when we come back, cnbc's larry kudlow joins us here on set. his sources say mirst prepared to unveil a bold new tax plan n a few minutes, we will at a you can to basketball analyst peter gammons live from jetblue park, the red sox new spring training ballpark in fort myers, florida. are we going? >> we are. >> okay, good. first, bill kwarps check of the forecast. a segment about the red sox just meant for joe, mika and barnicle. how perfect for us yankee fans. good morning, everyone, watch temperatures very warm across the country. already in the 50s and 60s throughout the southern half of the nation and just going to warm it up. the only exception in the northern plains why is it so warm? why does it feel like april at the end of february?

one of the reasons is we never got a snow pack this winter, not like we have snow to melt. the ground's already warm. when we get a southerly flow like this, it just comes straight up out of the gulf and all the way up to the canadian border why all of us on the eastern seaboard, eastern half of the country are going to be very warm. for our friends in the pacific northwest, still heavy rain, flooding in washington state, now oregon some of the wet weather, damp on the northwest, snow levels very high. look at los angeles today, 83, one of the warmest spots in the country, dallas and san antonio, not far behind. 60, kansas city to st. louis to denver. it just keeps going. d.c., you are headed for the 60s too. you are watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. today is gonna be an important day for us.

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i want to see taxless flatter and fairer and simpler because i want our tax poll sins to kourm growth. i'm going to be elaborating on that some more in the next couple of days, talk about more things to reduce in our spending to get our budget annually balanced. and then finally, our entitlements and obligations, i'm going to get more specific about some of the things we do -- need to do to make sure we can protect medicare and social security for coming generations. >> welcome back. a live look at rockefeller plaza in new york city. that was mitt romney in michigan yesterday, referring to the new tax plan. he is expected to release. and here with us now the host of

cnbc's "the kudlow report,"" larry kudlow, mike barnicle. >> why can't conservatives trust mir. why can't they get their arms around them? >> i don't think they have quite forgiven him, some conservatives, for being a massachusetts moderate, which he was and the race he ran against ted kennedy back in '94 when he was moderate. moderate moderate. so you know, i think he suffers from that even though when you look at a lot of the stuff he puts out it is pretty darn c conservative. >> if he get like theed, is he going to be like george w. bush? >> i don't think so you are going to hear today, romney is going to put out some kind of fact sheet plan, including the tax cuts we will talk about in a minute. he has, i give him credit, he has had a very strong budget-cutting entitlement-reforming plan. the trouble is he never seems to talk much about it and the second trouble is it's stuck inside of 59 points, which is

obviously beyond the pale, no one can possibly understand or remember. he has been good, very paul ryanesque. i give him credit. i'm not endorsing, i'm just reporting, i have read his stuff it is pretty good. >> all 59 points. what about rick santorum, wall street or the business community ever embrace santorum? >> on budgets and taxes, santorum is quite good. low tax rate plan and low corporate tax rate plan. as you guys were talking earlier, i think some people on the east coast are going to have trouble with his social policies which by the way, i'm not criticizing him on things like pro-life and freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, i think that's great stuff. i think when you get into contraception that is not some great stuff, he needs some discipline, but wall street doesn't know santorum. wall street is not familiar with santorum. wall street is familiar with mitt romney. >> if wall street were to become familiar with rick santorum what would they find out?

>> i think if they look carefully at his economic plan they would like it. i mean, he slashes the income tax rate, he slashes the corporate tax rate. he has this kind of game inc.,y zero tax on manufacturing, which has already been criticized by a lot of policy wonks and continue to be criticized but on the whole, he is an entitlement reformer and signed on to the paul ryan stuff on medicare choice and so forth. so on the issues, fiscal issue, i think santorum's pretty darn good. then took mitt romney, you said some parts of his plans are ryanesque, pretty good. >> yep. >> what parts of his plans are they and do they match his history as governor of massachusetts? does -- do they have credibility to them? >> what i want to get out is i was told yesterday by team romney that today, they are going to unveil a supply side tax cutting plan. a lot of copper is vat it was, including myself, have said that you need a bold plan. you need to tell people how

you're going to create jobs and how you're growing the economy faster than barack obama. that's what you need to do you haven't done that sort of defended george w. bush's tax plan. so, they are gonna have an across-the-board 20% across-the-board, very reaganesque, 20% across-the-board reduction in marginal tax rates. that is going to be their pro-growth plan. i think it is pretty good. i think it is an improvement. and that should come out today. and already had a 25% corporate tax rate, which i think is pretty good and so he will graft that on top of his budget cuts. what does he want? he wants 20% of gdp for spending it is presently about 24% of gdp, big budget cuts. i think he is talking about a $500 billion budget cut off the baseline by 2015, something like that, which is ambitious but quite doable and medicare reform, which would keep the existing system, extend eligibility for retirement purposes, put some lids on

benefits for upper income people and then romney, along with paul ryan and i think rick santorum agree would have a private choice pro-competition where, let's say, half a dozen health insurance companies would be eligible for your health care dollars. >> so cutting the deficit comes from those last two or three things you are talking about? >> romney is a numbers guy, maybe to a fault but he's a numbers guy. he is a power point presentation guy. and he talks about molding all the time, talk bus molding the tax cuts. i last interviewed him down in orlando in the primary campaign. i said where is your tax plan is where is your tax reform plan? he said we want to lower the rates and branding the base, apparently they have done their modeling, this 20% across-the-board tax cut and that's going to be paid for by limiting deductions for upper income people and by general spending cuts and by economic growth.

that's the message they are second. again, i'm not reporting, i'm just rereporting. i immediately blocked the call and 6 million media outlets reblogged by blog. i'm very thankful for that >> so richard haas, it looks like if you listen to larry and you are looking at the front page of the "wall street journal" this is what republicans call a flatter and fairer tax code, you flatten the code, you get rid of the deduction and according to "the wall street journal," more revenue is brought in by the federal government, even with lower marginal tax rates. >> that is the legacy of arthur blocker. you get higher levels of revenue because you are growing the economy. . my mentor. my mentor. but not 100%. i mean, i think art would say, i know i would say, let's take romney's plan, if he is going to lower tax rates by 20%, which

would take the top rate from 35 to 28, take the middle rates from like 25 to 20, i would say growth will pay 40 to 50% of that. the rest to have you're gonna have to cut spending if you want it to be revenue neutral and i think that's what their intention is, but the interesting wrinkle for romney, wealthy businessman these, and obama is going to slam him for being a millionaire, he is going to take the deductions in the tax code and put strict limits on them, okay, deductions like the home mortgage deduction, health care deduction, things of that sort, and limit what wealthy people can collect. he is going to say lower your tax rate but i'm going to also take out your deductions and that raises revenues to offset -- and by the way, i think that's very good idea. >> so called tax expenditures and ought to be reduced, ought to be means tested and the rest. that's got to be part of it. the question is where can he cut spending? if you want to increase defense

and not all discretionary domestic spending is "wasteful," things like infrastructure, education, human capital development is really good. so, where is it you cut spending? >> for example, there's about 150 different job -- no i'm sorry, there's about 50 different job training programs in the federal budget. what we really need is one good one. there's a lot of transfer payment notice federal budget whose eligibility has been greatly expanded the last few years w he don't need that put limits on that or people to go to school to get skills so they can go back to work. i think discretionary spending will be cut, i think transfer payments will be cut. but i tell you what i think entitlements are gonna be cut. i think they are going to put lids, caps on the amount that beneficiaries, particularly upper-income beneficiaries get. i think the retirement age is going to be lengthened so you are going to go from 65 to 67 to 69 over a period of time. there's almost a consensus for

that stuff going on in washington. so, what romney is doing is he is cherry picking a lot of things that have been kicked around and he is going to put them into place. i think his trick, can he sell it with gusto and -- >> can he sell anything with gusto? can he? can he sell anything with gusto? you worked for reagan. is this guy reagan? >> there's only one reagan. there's only one reagan. >> is he millard filmore? >> i never knew fit lmore. missed him by a couple years. >> is he george h. w. bush? can this guy sell anything? he ain't selling to the base. >> here is the trick. here is the trick. four or five major points is all you need, okay? spending cuts, entitlement reform, deregulation, supply side tax cuts, let's start with those four. remember reagan had the four pillars of wisdom and just kept talking about it and talking about it? this is a skill that mitt romney needs develop and communicate

over and over again. not 59, just four, maybe five, that's it. 9-9-9, remember how simple and size that was? >> yes, we do. >> romney needs to capture the marketing. herman cain was a great marketing guy. >> wasn't 9-9-9 to get that guy in run. >> say what you will it helped his campaign. >> it did. >> let's say romney has this 20% across-the-board tax cut, okay? pretty good pro-growth plan. the 20% solution what did you say? the 20% solution? what did you say? the 20% solution to create another 20 million jobs. something like that something like that >> that's good, kudlow. we can tell you. worked for the great communicator. yes, we are. >> what do you figure -- larry, what do you figure his income level is going to be on redoing, like, mortgage deductions? >> i'm just -- i have no idea, but we will learn today, i think. i'm going to say quart either of a million dollars would be about right. i think that is kind of the

agreed upon. look, if you're going to take your top rate from 35 to 28 and then move the other rates down to 20 and 15, that's good and each extra dollar earned would be taxed at a lower rate. that is a great incentive, but you should give up the special what i call croniest things in the tax code, you don't need it for to attack crony capitalism. >> that would be a good thing t would help him. a little bit more. >> 20% solution for 20% jobs. let me tell you something, 20% solution for 20 million new jobs is going to sell better this swing state than forced state-sanctioned vaginal probes. that is just me. it's just me. whether it's in virginia -- >> you think? >> can you talk to your republican party? could you talk to them? come on. >> talk about jobs. >> i tried. >> when we are finished talking about jobs, talk about jobs. >> economic issues, economic

issues. and i think voters did want change. look, if mitt wins in michigan, he will be on a record if he loses in michigan the whole thingism ploeds, like a trap door going down to the cellular. he has got to win michigan. >> "the kudlow report" airs week nights 7:00. >> this show, mike barnicle. >> larry kudlow. >> you have got researchers up at har varpd mit staying you watch this show every night it extends your life how many years, again? three, four? >> no, no 13. >> 13? >> larry, thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> thanks for waking up early. >> i appreciate it. >> nice to have you over here. great to be here. >> you're sweet. >> 20%. >> for 20 million new jobs. 20-20-20 plan. >> 20/20 vision. up next, talk to -- >> 20/20 vision. we got it 20/20 vision. >> we will be right back. >> peter gammons is a hall of favor. so is larry kudlow. [ male announcer ] imagine facing the day

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>> so good. >> so good. >> so good. >> i got one word for you.

>> what? >> there, that's me. >> a guy in the hall of famer. >> show respect. >> i'm good. >> joining us on the phone from the red sox new spring training park in florida, mlb network analyst, peter gam mons. peter, good morning. >> good morning. >> how is it down there? how is the jetblue park? >> it is really good. it is very complex because it's huge. >> really? >> and there are -- which gives bobby valentine a chance to, like, do every little detail he can do all day long. >> really? >> it is really good. it is a lot better than being in the cold. >> i can't wait to see it. >> no gout it. what about jetblue putting this park together? it's exciting. let me -- hey, peter, so i've got -- i'm still flinching. i'm not exactly sure what the medical condition is call bud i'm still flufinching from last september. times in june and july, i call barnicle, this is a little too easy, maybe we should let teams beat us once a week, just so sitting down and watching on

nesn is a little more excitable. then september came, the wheels came off. have you ever seen a collapse like that in boston? >> well, i've seen some collapses. >> we have all seen collapses, but that -- that prolonged of a collapse? >> jon lester said last night, what was so strange and he essentially was saying there was a sense of entitlement with that team, this they were entitled to go to the world series. he said in spring training, people were talking about how do you think the starting rotation will line up against the phillies in the world series and then as the season went on and some of the regular players got hurt, even though they did lead the major leagues in run runs, but their pitching staff fell apart, and it was so bad, went 7-20 in september and had two starting pitchgoers seven innings the entire month. >> yeah. >> it fell apart. and then some of them -- the stories that came out after the season and mike knows, being there in boston, i mean, okay,

guys, during rain delays in extra inning, they drank beer and twice they had fried chicken, which was -- >> fried chicken and beer. it makes the fast ball -- i mean, it slips off the fingers as it is going out of there. not only there was a complete breakdown in discipline there, there was a complete lack of heart by the end. willie geist was talking about going out and seek the red sox and the yankees play and lackey had gone to the mound. he had pitched five warmup pitches between innings and he said the only two players on the field after five pitches were already thrown were pedroia and gonzalez and everybody else was still lounging around on the bench. they lost heart. how? how? >> i just think that they withdrew terribly as they started to lose. i think it was very hard on terry francona. i always say managerial years in boston should be dog years, terry was in his 56th year as

manager. the time had come, just get -- blown out. the whole team was like that. that's why i think bringing val help tine n i think a couple of things have happened this spring. i think before pitchers and catchers were supposed to report, both beckett and lester sat down and addressed the media and addressed the anger that has gone with the media, something you live with in boston. and then when it -- just the notion that valentine comes in and makes them work terribly hard, players are so happy for that, they are not standing around shagging flies, they are actually doing things. and i think it lass tathey have they have begun to close the door on last year, because they are stale very good team but they needed to get away from where they were and the level of enthusiasm this spring, i think partly embarrassment and partly just the knowledge that, hey, we

are much better than that and it was ridiculous how bad we were and i think that's motivated them very strongly. >> hey, peter, can you address the larger landscape of major league baseball, the financial landscape in that you have club like detroit, you know, signing prince over the winter. you got philadelphia with the huge payroll. you have got the dodgers who probably will have a much bigger payroll once that team is sold and the widening gap between the haves and the have nots in major league baseball, the financials have and have nots. what's the future here? >> the biggest thing is regional television. i mean, when you are able to have es network and the tv deal these get in texas and the angels have got what the red sox get from nesn, those regional -- they separate -- you don't have big regional dollars in kansas city, cleveland. detroit survives because -- they have a tremendous payroll because the owner doesn't care about losing money. he only cares about trying to

bring a winner to detroit which, as we all know, has been a city terribly beaten down over the years. but that disspar sit a real problem for bud selig to deal with because it -- it's not that it's hopeless, but the window for a cleveland or a milwaukee is very now, pittsburgh, kansas city. you have to win in about a three-year window. tampa bay is the one team that runs against that probably the best run team in the business. not sure they will continue to run another three or four years either. >> so, mike, big question this year is carl crawford actually going to open his eyes when he swings athe pitches? >> carl crawford is going to have -- his year is going to be so much better than last year. >> really? >> last year so was terrible, he has adjusted his stance because of bobby valentine's presence there takes some of the heat off of carl. >> not going to be using you the 9-iron and swinging.

>> the women is gone. >> the wedge is gone? okay. very good. let's hope so peter, going to be a great season, peter. >> going to come up and do the show from the monster seats? >> we are actually going to do it on april 20th, the 100th birthday of fenway park. >> mike and i were both at the first game in 1912. >> we played catch outside. >> it was exciting. >> turned 18, right? >> i was going to say mike had brought his youngest kid. thank you, peter. the dow touches 13,000, but what does that mean symbolically? before the bell is next. when you have diabetes...

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welcome back to morning joe 49 past the hour, top of the rock in new york city. time now for a check on business before the bell with cnbc's brian shackman live at cnbc headquarters. brian what do you have this morning? >> good morning, mika. just quick nuggets on china. overnight, manufacturing pulled back and europe data out there indicates they might slip into recession. yesterday we touched for just a fuhr brief minutes 13,000 on the dow and everyone wants to know, well, what does it mean? technically it means nothing. symbolically almost means we have doubled from our 2009 lows. the talk is all the people now watching this show who swore off stocks forever three years ago will they start to come back in and the truth is they were burped once and afraid of getting burped yet again so there's what little nervousness, whether we are hitting a top or whether we can still go to the upside. i can just point out the one red flag here is oil and gas price and this issue with iran. we are paying the average price for gas 3.58 across the country,

last year, 3.17 a tight household bunnell pet, that means you can't spend on other things and could affect our economy. >> that will be part of the political argument for sure as well w gas prices. >> it is more than just irran. instability the middle east, in africa, slightly improving economic services, all increases upward pressure on gas prices. >> brian shackman, thanks very much. back in a morning with more "morning joe."

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on tomorrow's show, governor chris christie will be here. former presidential candidate jon huntsman, senator kirsten gillibrand and stevie van zant from bruce springsteen's e street band. wow. great show tomorrow. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? i'm meteorologist bill karins with your business travel forecast what a warm period we are going to have the next two to three days here. for the end of february, pretty incredible stuff. temperatures new york city to boston, mid to upper 50s, d.c. today to atlanta, in the 60s. some areas like dallas will be

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welcome back to "morning joe." kids, time to talk about what we learned today. mike, barnicle what did you learn? >> the continuation of a very sad story. >> what is that? >> mika's -- it came in the box like this. >> i dropped it 12 inches. >> apple has not successfully taken care of mika brzezinski's phone. >> steve jobs passes away and so does quality control. >> you guys are all idiots. bye. two piece of glass. >> you bought t what did you learn? >> going to be a good season for the yankees. the red sox have not materially improved their situation. >> good season? how can you say that? >> michael pip yade da, 280 today.neda, 280 today. >>