since birth control is the latest hot topic, which candidate believes in birth control and if not, why? as you can see -- it's a very popular question. >> it's a very popular question in the audience. we're not going to spend a lot of time on this. >> can i just make a point? >> sure. >> getting some feedback. >> i think, look, i think -- i'm going to make two quick points, john. the first is, there is a legitimate question about the power of the government to impose on religion, activities which any religion opposes, that's legitimate. >> sure is. >> but i just want to point out that you did not once in the 2008 campaign, not once did anybody in the elite media ask why barack obama voted in favor of legalizing -- let's be clear here.

if we're going to have a debate about who the extremist is on these issues, it is president obama who is a state senator who voted to protect doctors who kill babies who survive abortion. it is not a republican. >> okay. good morning, everyone. it's thursday, february 23rd. >> it's time square. >> it's pretty, isn't it? sun has not come out yet. 30 seconds ago joe was running across that street to make it. you made it. oh, wow. . >> what a great crew we have here. >> what a great sweater. >> it looks exactly like the other ones, except it current have food right there, so that's good. >> i'm sorry. >> no ketch-up right there. >> you don't like the blue sweater? >> blue's fine, but the polo shirt and -- >> you don't like this? >> no. >> i'm comfortable. >> he's comfortable. >> i wake up, here's the deal --

>> are you comfortable? >> if i feel like it. >> you know, i mean, here's my deal. i've been waking up at about -- and mika has been too, 3:30 or 4:00 in the morning for about five years and sometimes you're like, i'm not going to put on -- especially in the winter. i hate putting on dress shirts at 4:00 a.m. walking outside and having it be 10 degrees. >> my day starts an hour and a half before his. >> and mika looks fabulous every day. >> pre-makeover. >> few and far between. >> i kind of like -- >> one day i'm going to come in like you. >> you should. >> no. you really don't want that. >> i like this relaxed look, right? >> isn't this what all the kids are wearing? >> watching you in the morning, i must say that you could maybe throw a tie in every once in a while. >> all right. hold on, let's go, mark, come

on, man. help me out here. what is that? what is that? what is that? you're the guy from the tequila commercials. >> richest man in the world. >> mark, that's -- that's a reach too far. >> thank you, mika. can we do a split screen really quickly? no, with just mark and myself. because hold on one second. hold on one second. there we go and -- >> what is that white thing? is that like a -- >> that's a bow tie. >> this is a south american scarf. someone tweeted this is the cowboy vampire look. >> i'm feeling good about myself all of a sudden. >> you look great. >> what is that in the middle? hold on, there's no -- >> it's a polo tie. >> this is like the south

american goucho. joe and i are both going negative on ties. negative on ties. >> i would have appreciated a tie today because someone's coming in to take pictures. >> you know what, though? here's the thing, and i've always said this, who have i said is always on the cutting edge of fashion? mark mckinnon. >> uh-huh. >> jonathan wandered in yesterday with that beard. >> we do have a debate. i mean we could debate this debate. >> i'm not -- >> not the way you look now. with us on the show, we've got national affairs editor for new york magazine and msnbc political analyst and, of course, the guy hanging out with all of the stars about a month from now at the premiere of "game change." >> if we don't find him in a ditch somewhere. >> we also have pulitzer prize winner and msnbc contributor jonathan capehart.

and also nbc political p analyst, harold ford jr., the most interesting man in the world, mark mckinnon. mark, let's start with you. >> who won? >> what was that? no, not who won, did you see the movie? >> sure. >> and so you know that scene. one of my favorite scenes was when you had bill murray walking out of the theater and he said what i want is when people see my play, i want them to leave the theater and turn to each other and go, what happened? what just happened? but let me ask you about the republican debate last night. what happened? >> well, the main thing that i think happened was that rick santorum really needed to punch through last night. he really needed to have a big performance. and he was incredibly defensive. it showed the problem of having been a legislator with a long

record and two words he said last night really jumped out at me. when he defended his vote for no child left behind. he said he was "a team player." i totally support that legislation. i think it was great legislation, but he could've defended it stoutly or said -- or voted for it for conviction, but to say i voted for it as a team player, that's exactly what voters don't want. they want someone who votes for the party. and i think that's a big problem. >> i think it's a huge problem. i disagree with no child left behind, i was on the education committee. they broke both of my arms, i stumbled on to the house floor, the bush administration -- they were coming down on me, threatening me. because as you remember, before 9/11, this was the bush administration's number one priority. and i voted against it and other conservatives voted against it. so to hear somebody now saying, well, i was just being a team player, that doesn't wash with me. if that's your vision of the education system in america,

defend it. but mark, for republicans, especially. to say, oh, i was just doing this to get along. >> that's not leadership. he had another line where he said i voted for that, it was against my principles. boy, that's not what republican primary voters want to hear. >> let's just take a moment and play that sound bite and watch it as it happens. take a look. >> when i supported no child left behind. i supported it. it was the principle priority of president bush to try to take on a failing education system and try to impose some sort of testing regime that would be able to quantify how well we're doing with respect to education. i have to admit i voted for that, it was against the principles i believed in, but you know, when you're part of the team, sometimes you take one for the team for the leader and i made a mistakes. politics is a team sport, folks. >> once again, the senator was

for no child left behind, but now he's running for president, now he's running to repeal no child left behind once again. and he calls it a team sport. go along to get along and that's what the team plays. but that's the problem with washington. >> john heilemann, especially because of that vote. i'm talking the conservatives who in the 1990s were on the cutting edge of a conservative counter resolution. so to have santorum say, oh, sometimes it's a team sport. no, you respectfully disagree. but i can't think of anything worse. and by the way, for the record, mitt romney is enthusiastically supported no child left behind. we've got the sound bite here. so he's taking it. but you've got two guys who were out of the mainstream of conservative thought. >> but in a way for santorum,

santorum's supposed to be the conservative alternative to mitt romney. that's his role and why he's been doing well. if you think about that issue, think about him talking about his support for arlen specter, him defending earmarks throughout the debate. >> can i stop you there for one second? on one key point that conservatives remember? >> yeah. >> he supported arlen specter against pat toomey. one of the few people we can remember the other day who actually voted against bush's $7 trillion boondoggle for medicare. >> supporting specter against toomey, defending earmarks and doing it in a legislative way. that kind of senatorese, talking about earmarks. given an opportunity to define himself with one word choosing the word courage rather than conservative. there were a million opportunities for santorum to drive i'm the conservative alternative. and instead of doing that, he allowed himself to fall into the place that romney wants to put

him, which is a creature of washington. and that's how he came across all night long last night. i don't think romney scored any big knockouts, but santorum did himself no good in advancing himself as the conservative alternative to mitt romney. and that sounded like a win by default for the former governor of massachusetts. >> i remember when gary hart got into his trouble back in '88 and i felt one of the things that really hurt him was the fact he'd been a crusader against the excesses of the reagan administration. and almost sounded self-righteous about a lot of things he said. okay, mr. self-righteous, of course, nobody accused bill clinton of that four years later. if santorum is going to be so self-righteous on so many other issues, he can't be shocked when people call him out. >> exactly. >> sounds like a hypocrite on the issues he decides to waffle on. >> and the other thing. remember a few days ago, he has this sound bite where people were pushing him on his views on

contraception and other things. i can't remember the specific thing he said. but he said, look, i'm a man of principle. you can trust that when i say something i believe it as a veiled shot at mitt romney. there he is saying i went against my principles. i go along to get along, i took one for the team. politics is a team sport. that's probably the most shocking clip in the entire debate. >> harold, let's switch subjects now to the -- one thing that went unspoken but everybody knows and that is that mitt romney and ron paul have formed an alliance. it is such an obvious alliance that mitt romney would do well to just come out and admit it. i don't know what he's promised ron paul. i don't know if ron paul is hoping his son gets in the administration. let's go really honest here. for all people, for ron paul to

form an alliance with in the republican party, to pick out mitt romney is really bizarre. >> well, if you think about -- >> unless the alternative is newt gingrich or rick santorum. >> he knows gingrich probably doesn't get along with gingrich. santorum is not well liked amongst his current members of the senate and the house and some former colleagues of his. he's not a likable guy, but they suggest and intimate there's disingenuous there as we saw last night. not everybody watched this debate. but what everybody will watch here is this analysis. and this analysis this morning is consistent with what you're hearing across the media landscape, which suggests as jonathan said in the strongest terms is this principle, presenting himself as a principled conservative, he showed he was not and was not. it puts him in the driver's seat as he heads into michigan and strengthens his lead in arizona.

the white house's projection that mitt romney will be their opponent in the fall is looking more and more like the right one. and as they prepare more and more for him, they'll be more and more prepared. >> mika, there's no substitution for organization in presidential politics. you saw last night, again, with the crowd that mitt romney out-organized everybody. if anybody believes there's that many people that excited about mitt romney, you also believe n in -- >> okay. i want to -- >> the tooth fairy. i want to be careful because some kids wake up with their parents and watch this show. >> yeah, that's real. that's not a good analysis. >> found myself in the tracks. >> no, i want to ask you, mark mckinnon how these alliances are actually -- >> i'm sorry, i just saw the most interesting man in the world. >> the scarf. >> hard not to watch him. >> take a chance is what i always say.

take a chance. >> you look great, mark. >> even if you make a terrible, terrible mistake. take a chance. >> mark, and i know what that's like. the alliance, here's ron paul not holding back when it comes to attacking rick santorum last night. he was asked about his latest michigan ad buys. >> you have a new television ad that labels him a fake. why? >> because he's a fake. >> i'm real. i'm real. >> congratulations. >> no, i find it really fascinating that when people are running for office they're really fiscally conservative, when they're in office, they do something different, and when they explain themselves they say, oh, i want to repeal that. the senator voted for no child left behind but now he voted for it, but now he's running on the effort to get rid of it. >> let's go to our panel of experts right now. and which one should we go to,

mika? what do you think? t.j., can you put it up, please? >> oh. let's see. >> no, the other one. let's try the other one. >> so let's go to mark. and set that up while mark answers. what's the deal here? you know there's either a spoken or unspoken deal between mitt romney -- this is the sort of thing nobody in the media likes to talk about. >> it happens. >> everybody in the game knows is going on. is ron paul hoping his son gets a job. >> and who cuts the deal? >> is he hoping his son is going to be -- what's going on here? there's a deal between these guys. >> have you done one of those? >> here's the interesting thing. it's not just santorum. if you go back, ron paul has been a devastating attack dog against first rick perry, then newt gingrich, and now santorum spending millions of dollars with, i think, the most effective negative advertising

in the whole campaign. he's been throwing out daisy cutters, clearing the way for mitt romney all along. and you know, it's a wink and a nod and never any kind of spoken deals on these kind of things, but it's clear what's going on. and, you know, he has been the full back, blocking in front of romney this whole time. >> so where are we right now? where do we stand right now in michigan, john heilemann? do you agree with the chatter out there that if romney can't put santorum away -- and i suspect he will in michigan, but if he can't, are we moving towards the possibility of a brokered convention? >> well, first off, i think there's no question -- i think it's going to be quite close. most people in the michigan democrat -- michigan republican political world think that romney -- you talked about organization a second ago. romney's organization in this state is incredibly deep and incredibly strong. on the other hand, you do have a lot of grass roots enthusiasm

for santorum in the tea party and among evangelical voters. it's going to be neck and neck, but i think most people think romney's going to pull it out. if he does, you still have a difficult super tuesday for romney. the truth is, there are a lot of things, oklahoma, tennessee, alaska, idaho, georgia, where's there a high percentage of evangelical voters. it's not like romney's going to have a clean sweep, but he must win michigan. and if he doesn't, he'll be in very serious trouble. no question about that. >> jonathan, gingrich had a good night last night. i thought he was more in control because he's way behind. he's always better when he's behind. gingrich can make a run. >> that's what he's hoping. he's putting all his eggs in the march 6th basket on super tuesday. and he was so relaxed to the point he was slumped over in the chair looking like -- right. sit back and watch the debate unfold around him. >> romney's able to win michigan and arizona.

joe, you have a greater appreciation than any at the table. southern republicans, they want to rally, they want to win. >> right. >> and as much as gingrich, i think, will do well in georgia and likely to do well in my home state of tennessee, i think if romney does well here in the next week or so, he will find himself in the driver's seat. >> i think so. >> republicans and democrats on super tuesday like to validate their leader. >> if romney -- >> i want your opinion on this. >> romney does well in michigan and arizona, i think the south, conservative with a big and small "c" will jump to the front-runner and make sure he doesn't have -- that he's not too muddied up in the south. but if he loses michigan -- >> i would agree with you. >> and if arizona is close. but if he loses michigan. >> all bets are off. >> all bets are off, and i think you need to start looking at newt gingrich having a good march. and then we're marching toward a -- not a brokered convention,

but a contested convention. >> if he loses michigan, santorum's momentum -- if romney loses michigan, santorum's momentum will be strong. he's showing a ten-point national lead right now and pulling ahead in state polls like oklahoma and california, other places like that. that's not to say if romney wins michigan, it could be halted. if santorum wins in michigan, he's going to roll out with a big head of steam in these states, as i'll say again, five or six states on super tuesday that have evangelical populations over 40%. >> and by the way, if that happens, we're going to be talking about contraception in the coming weeks and months. i mean, i am dead serious here. this is a guy who i like, who i told you i have supported in the past. who believes that griswold v.

connecticut should be overturned. why do i bring that up? i bring that up because when romney was ahead, we were talking about the 1% because he was the face of the party. when santorum's ahead, we're going to be talking about contraception and it's going to scare a lot of republican women. forget democrats, forget independents, it's something he needs to get out and make a definitive statement about. >> one that keeps it in the lane. because there's a lot of stuff he's written, as well. but i think women question, as well. working women. >> by the way, breaking news out of virginia yesterday. and let's go to the most interesting man in the world. it seems, you know, yesterday morning, i suggested -- >> i don't know how this happened. >> i'm not sure if it's the case or not, but i suggested that state sanctioned vaginal probes may not be a good way to win swing voters in states like virginia. i'm not sure if you've got polling or focus groups to back that up with women, but i do. >> don't need it. you don't need it. >> from my wife and her very

pro-life republican friends horrified at that. bob mcdonnell stepped back yesterday from the clip and said he wouldn't support that part of the bill. very interesting. >> yeah, he tried. the republicans are supposed to be against big government asserting themselves in our lives, then we have the situation in virginia where republicans are trying to insert themselves into women's bodies -- >> okay. so -- >> really. >> okay. coming up -- >> why do you think they call him the most interesting man in the world? >> because he is. >> exactly. >> what do we have coming up? we've got a guy who's very interesting. >> he's fascinating. >> he's got this cool youtube video. >> i've got to talk to him. >> i like it. you don't. we're going to explain. >> i like him very much and i think it has some nice attributes to it. >> we're talking about governor chris christie. >> chris christie will be here onset. the former presidential

candidate jon huntsman will join us and kirsten gillibrand. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. and i almost went there with a virginia reference, that's going to stop. bill, what's it looking like? >> we'll leave that alone. yesterday in virginia was absolutely beautiful day along with all areas of the east coast. look at the highs yesterday. let's go back. and this is a map you'd see in april, maybe even may. temperatures yesterday in the 60s from kansas city to d.c. we were in the 70s throughout the south. amazingly, today i'm going to talk about a snowstorm coming down in areas out of south dakota. watch out. detroit, chicago, des moines, you're going to have snow later on tonight. tomorrow morning, you're going to have to do some shoveling. a little difficult getting to work. chicago, illinois, expecting 4 to 8 inches of heavy, wet snow. sioux falls, 4 to 8, grand

rapids, less for you, it's a narrow band of snow. it's not going to affect a lot of areas, just going to hit those big cities. today's forecast on the east coast, after a cloudy morning, a windy, warm afternoon d.c. could approach 70, 50s and 60s along the i-95 corridor and look how warm it's going to be in texas today. 81 in dallas, 75 in atlanta. if you're in the deep south, enjoy this. what a great early start to spring. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] we know you don't wait until the end of the quarter to think about your money... ♪ ...that right now, you want to know where you are, and where you'd like to be. we know you'd like to see the same information your advisor does so you can get a deeper understanding

of what's going on with your portfolio. we know all this because we asked you, and what we heard helped us create pnc wealth insight, a smarter way to work with your pnc advisor, so you can make better decisions and live achievement.

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let's ask the most interesting man in the world. is this not the spinners' best song "most interesting man in t the world?" one of a kind love affair. >> that may be my favorite single from the 1970s. and that was my era. i absolutely love it. >> 27 past the hour. >> know any spinners songs? >> all you moms out there with a table full of boys, no different here. time now for a look at the morning papers. giving the green light to what could become the first prescription drug to treat obesity in over a decade. the advisory committee says the weight loss benefits provided by qnexa offset the risk of heart problems and birth defects. two years ago the same committee

rejected approval of the same drug. >> you can't hear this song without humming along. >> it is great. >> i can. okay. >> the spinners are -- >> can we go to our parade of papers? >> mighty, mighty love song. >> and everyone stops. >> turn this up for a second. if you were too young to remember "mighty love," i think it came out in '73 or '74. do yourself a favor, "mighty love," spinners, download it on itunes. it'll change your life. presidential candidate buddy roemer's expected to end his bid for the republican nomination. who am i going to vote for? he's going to stay in the race for the white house now as an independent. let's go down to the most interesting man in the world. it seems to me that americans

elect and no labels and all of these centrist movements, not really centrist movement, but just -- >> buddy roemer had a great message about the problem with money and politics. former governor, former congressman, successful businessman. they wouldn't let him in 20 debates. they let a pizza mogul, but he's the first declared candidate for americans elect. and he's a very exciting guy with a great message, a very focused guy. talking about one of the real problems in american politics and he needs to be heard and he's going to be heard when he runs out on americans elect because somebody's going to win -- they're going to be on the ballot in 50 states and he could be on that ticket. >> he has got probably the most custom made message for 2012 of any of the candidates.

>> let's go to politico. >> let's go to jim vandehei. so, jim, yesterday afternoon, bob mcdonnell decided that he wanted to remain on the short list for republican vice presidential nominee and did something. what did he do? >> well, he backtracked on his support for that legislation. i don't think we're shocked by it given there's been so much national attention on it. and like you said, he has national ambitions. and i think, you know, for a conservative, you had mentioned yesterday morning it hasn't been a great last week as far as issues that they're talking about when you think about appealing to independent voters. we have an interesting piece up this morning that talks to a lot of republicans who are looking at this election and seeing a lot of similarities to 2008 in other elections where they get schooled up on small issues that turn off voters who don't happen to be white, conservative, male, hard line on immigration and other issues and that's troubling to a lot of republicans, particularly in

washington because they think obama is very vulnerable. they think he's beatable, but he's not beatable if you alienate all the different independent voters you have to pull into your column to win a national election. >> all right. >> you did a great blog on this. >> thank you, mika. i liked yours too. >> no, i didn't do one. in a statement yesterday, the governor said mandating an invasive procedure in order to give informed consent is not a proper role for the state. no person should be directed to undergo an invasive procedure by the state without their consent as a precondition to another procedure. >> that was nice of him. >> talk about a profile in courage. >> well, no, i mean, listen, this bill was about to be signed. >> i'm confused. >> no, it is, again, mark mckinnon suggests that for swing voters, you don't have to take a poll to figure out whether even

republican women would support state-sanctioned vaginal probes. >> just the way you read that when the statement gets read. you think who on earth could disagree with this? how can this be controversial? really? this needs to be reiterated? >> so the last line of joe's blog, i think i have it here. >> what's that? >> you look for that. >> right here. >> we're going to go to jim. >> this is what he writes on politico. no word yet on whether virginia's gop legislators will now attempt to alienate the rest of the commonwealth voters by ordering state-sanctioned -- i didn't know you put this in there -- anal probes for men seeking viagra supplies. >> i didn't write that. you wrote that. >> i didn't see that part. that's horrible. >> i didn't write that. >> i get a kick out of your segues. >> so, jim, what was your take away from the debate last night? >> well, i think those republicans who before the debate wanted somebody else in

this race probably really, really, really want somebody else in this race. people are saying mitt romney had a strong night. i thought he came across looking very mean-spirited, very confrontational when he didn't need to be confrontation. he sounds like somebody talking about how he's watching clips on youtube about rick santorum saying this and that about earmarks in the past. he benefitted because rick santorum, roger simon had this great line this morning that sounds like rick santorum went to the bob dole school of debating trying to figure out how you can talk in the most convoluted senatese you can. >> byron york last night said that this was a very bad night for the republican party. very depressing debate. wouldn't you agree? >> yeah, i think overall the big problem is that they're all kind of limping across the finish line, and this long dragged out primary is crippling the whole field making obama look a lot

strong for the general election. >> i keep thinking, it's amazing to me, republican governor said yesterday, who was the genius that thought in a year when we were running against an incumbent president it was a good idea to elongate this process and guarantee the thing was going to go on for longer? it's not a dynamic that works well. >> yeah. >> especially given this crop. >> given the crop. >> jim vandehei, did you put this blog up on politico? >> did i myself put it up? >> no, did you it up -- >> well, if joe gets it filed on time -- i think i'm going to have to go back and censor it. >> you might want to. >> i like that. >> we operate a family website. >> well, you picked the wrong guy to blog for you then. jim, thanks a lot. coming up a little later, new jersey governor chris christie will be with us onset. and next, sports with jonathan. this is a red hot mess.

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in sports, we start at madison square garden.

carmelo anthony and jeremy lin playing together for the second time last night. looking to find chemistry with his new teammate. first quarter, lin slices through the atlanta defense, then in transition, dishes it to carmelo for the defense. fourth quarter, j.r. smith and davis connect for the alley-oop. >> hold on. there you go. >> here's the alley-oop. >> now go. >> what did lin finish with? >> you know, joe? he finished with 17 points while resting most of the fourth quarter. carmelo finished with 16. >> what's happening tonight? >> well, the knicks head to south beach. >> do you like south beach? >> i do. >> what's your favorite hotel? >> the national hotel. it's fantastic. >> really? >> yeah. >> every stay at the -- >> no. >> you should. >> should i read this?

>> i'd love for you -- she's listening to my daughter sing. well, up next, cnbc's john harwood is up with the must-read opinion pages and more from last night's republican debate. we're back in a moment. [ male announcer ] the draw of the past is a powerful thing.

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the constitutional requirement to balance the budget for four years. >> i'm all for it. >> i'd like to see it federally, but don't go bragging about something you have to do. michael dukakis balanced the budget for ten years.

does that qualify him to be president of the united states? i don't think so. >> live look at washington, d.c. as the sun comes up this morning. time now for the must-read opinion pages and joining us now, john harwood. >> how are you doing? >> i'm doing good. a writing in op-eds saying "mighty love --." >> that is a great song. >> well, you can't pick one. >> i can. mighty love, could it be i'm falling in love, one of a kind, love affair. those are three super sonic songs. >> you've got a shot. >> the stylistic's not bad. >> you've got a show. >> okay. >> all right. let's read from an op-ed coincidentally from a former member of the o.j.s. in fact, he's the lead vocalist

on soul train. >> all right. e.j. dionne. they say that president obama's a muslim, but if he isn't he's a secularist who is waging war on religion. some days he's a nazi, but most others he's merely a socialist. his especially creative opponents see him as an anti-colonial world view while the less adventurous say he spent too much time in academic precincts. whatever our president is, he's never allowed to be a garden variety american who plays basketball and golf and has a remarkably old-fashioned family life in the manner we regularly recommend it to our kids. got ahead by getting a good education. please forgive this outburst. it's simply astonishing that a man in his fourth year as our president continues to be the object of the most extraordinary paranoid fantasy. >> we have people on this show -- >> yeah. >> and in the race that can't even say he's a christian.

after he says he's a christian a million times. >> ignorant. >> that's true, but i do -- >> you think what's true? that he's a christian? >> no, i think you're right, and e.j. is right that some of this stuff is crazy. >> oh, it's insane. >> i will say it to the extent that they're talking about santorum and phony theology. i think santorum got hosed on that. >> do you really? >> i do. >> look at that tape. he's talking about environmentalism in the same way that many democrats say that tax cutting, for example, is a republican theology. i think it was a comparable statement to that. >> he's also made suggestions in the past, though, that you can't be a liberal and a christian at the same time. >> i'm with you on that. >> he's danced around this territory. you've interviewed the president a good bit. and anybody that's been in his presence understands he's many things, he's not a radical. >> absolutely right.

>> this guy in many ways and i quoted before, who says take your pick, he can't be carl marx and jimmy carter. >> he's a family guy. >> the only criticism if you could find one is he wants a normal life in the white house. i mean seriously, he really wants a normal life. >> we talked to former staffers. i know i have too who complained at times that when it's 6:00, if the president has his choice, he's out of that oval office, he's marching upstairs and sitting down and having dinner with his wife and his children. he is, again, he is many things -- i disagree with him economically, i disagree with his foreign policy -- >> but don't -- >> you cannot live your family values more faithfully than president obama. >> you cannot. it's fascinating his political enemies, john, are so hung up with this that they end up

aiming at him and shooting themselves. >> look, i'm not one who kind of just reflexively cries racism -- >> cry. >> but e.j.'s point is, the point, i think it's true. there's some -- this thing has gone on for four years. this notion of, as you said, there was someone on the show the other day trying to basically insinuate that the muslim faith claims barack obama because he was born in a muslim household and he's given a pass to extremists around the world and talking about sharia law. there's racial element for some of the president's enemies who cast him as a -- in the way that we're talking about, there is some undertone of persistent racial animosity that fuels that. >> where were you in 1992? were you still in school or reporting? >> i was reporting.

>> i challenge you to go back and listen to what republicans said about bill clinton in '92, '93, '94. i promise you this, you talk to bill clinton and he will show you the political scars on his back that are every bit as deep as george w. bush's from the other side -- let me finish. of -- let me finish this point because you -- it's important. hold on. you threw race under the table. >> yes. >> i want to take it off and i want to take it off this way because you were exactly right. one of the leading christian conservatives in america had a videotape series accusing bill clinton of murder. you give me a conspiracy about barack obama, i will give you an equal conspiracy thrown out there about bill clinton. >> you know, there -- i don't disagree with you that there has always been haters on both sides that have cast conspiratorial aspersions on both presidents, but the character of this kind of question.

there was never a question of is bill clinton an american? there was question about a lot of things, the right wing attacked him in vicious ways, no doubt about that, but there's a different character to this attack on obama. >> i remember in 1992, republicans suggesting the right suggesting that bill clinton was a spy for the soviet union because there was this time he was over in the ussr they couldn't track him down and he was -- he was -- he had gone to oxford to be recruited by the kgb and to become president and to bring down this country. you remember that, as well. >> the passport file thing was all about? >> yes. >> no doubt there's some racial element to this. but i tend to agree with joe on this. i think every president. you look at the great presidential historians, and they'll all tell you every president, jon meacham, every president believes it was

unfair, it was vicious. and the fact that we now have an african-american president, it shouldn't be a surprise there's some element of race to it. but at the end of the day, if he were white, barack obama, and was traveling down the path of republicans believe he's traveling down, they'd be criticizing him with the same kind of -- >> not as a closet muslim. that's all i'm saying. that's all i'm saying. >> that element i agree with. >> john, you remember in the '80s, george h.w. bush was accused of running drugs for the cia and some even suggested that -- a congresswoman suggested they were shipping it to south central l.a. to african-americans. and then they were funneling that money -- there are these crazy conspiracy theorys that surround every president. and unfortunately, that's just part. the president four years into it. he's becoming a bit more zen

about this, isn't he? every attack on talk radio isn't penetrating the way it did four years ago, is it? >> look, i have been struck by how sen he's been about this since he ran the first time. and, look, he won the biggest majority any president won in ten years. he's leading in the polls now. he is -- he's pretty politically healthy at this moment. so i think a little perspective on the whole country sees this as compared to the small number of people who have got this kooky stuff they push around. >> listen to this spinners song. >> it's a good one. >> i've got to say. i've got to say, it is. you can't dispute this this is a great one. >> that's great. >> you think the spinners -- you have no idea. do you even know? >> did you even know who the

spinners were before joe brought it up? you never listened to this album? >> well, i've heard these songs. >> at least once or twice. >> the group i met with, the comment about the show is they love your music. >> turn it up. >> they don't like us? >> no, they do, but they love the music. >> governor chris christie, jon huntsman will be onset, as well. keep it right here on "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. lord of the carry-on. sovereign of the security line. you never take an upgrade for granted. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above.

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four years ago, well after romney care was put in place, four years ago, you not only endorsed me, said this is the guy who is really conservative and we can trust him. the reason we have obama care, the reason we have obama care is because the senator you supported over pat toomey in pennsylvania, arlen specter, the pro-choice senator of pennsylvania that you supported and endorsed in a race over pat toomey voted for obama care. if you had not supported him, we would not have obama care. so don't look at me. take a look in the mirror. supporting arlen spector over pat toomey was a very tortuous -- it was pro-choice -- in 1996. >> welcome.

oh, look at that. welcome back to "morning joe." >> beautiful. >> beautiful. >> beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. >> john heilemann and harold ford jr. with us along with mark mckinnon in washington. and joining the table, former presidential candidate jon huntsman looking kind of tan and rested. >> come on, let's show the split screen. it looks great on you whatever that is. and, of course, he is trying to look like the most interesting man in the world. and i think -- >> he's not trying, he is. >> he is the most interesting man in the world. >> i think it looks great. i think it gives him a certain latin international -- >> latin. >> he's going for the swing vote. all right. so governor, what's happening to our party? come on, man. what is going on with our party? >> well, first of all, i have a hard time tuning into the debates.

you have these flashbacks every now and again that aren't always so pleasant. because we've had far too many of them. and i think because we've had so many of them, they've dumbed down the value of debates and people watch them for entertainment value it's like "survivor." but we're wasting time, joe. i was thinking last night as we were watching some of the debate play out. gone are the days where the republican party used to put forward big, bold visionary stuff. i thought about eisenhower and the interstate, i thought about 40 years ago, this month when nixon stepped off the plane from china and talked about the balance of power and the relationship, you think about ronald reagan bringing an end to the cold war, big bold visionary stuff locked up in the history of the republican party. and i see zero evidence of people getting out there and addressing the economic deficit, which is a national security problem, for heaven sake and addressing the trust deficit. >> you talk about the trust deficit, the economic deficit, you said things on entitlements

that other people weren't talking about and you actually took on the banking sector and you had a banking reform plan that actually was bolder and people on the left and the right said this than anybody in the race, bolder than president obama. what happened? why didn't you connect with voters? >> well, i didn't pander. and if you're not willing to pander in the early part of the game, whether it's the iowa straw poll or the florida straw poll, you don't raise enough money. you don't raise enough money, you don't get enough momentum. but i think fundamentally, and i'm being very honest about this, i think people held against me the fact that i crossed a partisan line in serving this president in putting country first. it's something i thought was right for my country at the time. and i would do it again, it's who i am. and we're at a point in time where that no longer is rewarded. i wasn't looking for any reward for it, it's just who i am, but i think people held that against me until the end. that's okay. we are where we are and i'm enjoying private life.

but -- >> with the republican party broken, though? is there time for a third party? do you believe we need an independent candidate running this year? >> what do we need? we need campaign finance reform. the system is broken. we need term limits. we need something to compete against a duopoly that is getting old and tired. reminds me a little bit of 1856 when there was the advent of the republican party under fremont who lost the first round but lincoln went on to win the next time. i think we're going to have problems politically until we get some sort of third party movement or some alternative voice out there that can put forward new ideas. that ain't going to be me, by the way, i know the next question, i'm not interested in that. but someone's going to step up at some point. they're going to say we've had enough of this. the real issues are not being addressed and it's time we put forward an alternative vision, bold thinking, weg might not win, but we can certainly influence the debate.

>> who's we, though? when it's time we put forward a bold vision. are you talking about the republican party? >> i'm talking about a whole bunch of americans who can't find a place politically. when the fastest growing party in america is the unaffiliated party, fastest growing party is the unaffiliated party. >> you basically called for a third party, right? >> i think that's the haealthy thing. >> how do you square that when you've endorsed mitt romney? you prefer a third party candidate. >> i say given the lay of the land, with economics being the primary concern, when you have 100% debt to gdp, you're sunk, the next generation is completely screwed, let's put it that way. until such time as we can fundamentally address the economic side, we're going to be in bad shape. i think mitt romney's the best person to handle that economic side. >> but you'd still be open to reconsidering your support for romney if -- americans elect is happening this year. they're going to nominate a

ticket. >> i'm not a surrogate for anybody. you've got somebody coming up who is a surrogate. all i can say is i'm looking at the political marketplace. and i'm saying this duopoly is tired and we're stuck in a rut. we're not having the discussions in this country that we need to have. we're not talking about campaign finance -- when you talk about the way in which these campaigns are financed and no one standing up saying this is ridiculous, it's broken, it's about time somebody lead by example. and it's not going to change. >> one more thing on the same point. again, romney -- you're not a surrogate but you're an endorser. does that extend to governor romney's plan? >> listen, until somebody comes out with a program that says we're going to sweep clean the tax code, that comes up with a program that says we have an opportunity for a manufacturing renaissance in this country, we do. look at the marketplaces around the world. china's on the decline. we have an opportunity to get it right in this country, creating jobs and getting our manufacturing sector back.

people aren't talking about that. and so, i'm disapointed that the big, bold, visionary stuff is not on display for people to see. how much time was wasted last night talking about the nonsense issues of the day? >> a lot of it. >> president obama unveiled a new tax reform plan involving lowering the corporate tax rate, i believe to 28% for most u.s. companies, 25% for manufacturers. there's a proposal, a system plan that taxes u.s. companies where they are located. do you think the president was bold enough? and if not, i've read some of your ideas, how much further would you go? >> i think it's movement in the right direction. but let's get serious about this. he had an opportunity with a tax reform proposal, a bipartisan proposal. >> simpson/bowles. >> he had an opportunity, dropped on his desk, an opportunity to move that

forward. covered individual tax reform, covered corporate tax reform. i'm convinced this market is not going to respond positively to what ought to be a big bold visionary tax plan until such time as we have a leader who is willing to stand up and say this is what our country needs, let's move on. we're chipping away at it. this is an incremental step-by-step approach. and i believe the marketplace isn't going to reward that step-by-step approach. say, folks, this is the way forward. this is the plan. i know it's not perfect and i'm going to run into resistance on capitol hill. it might look a little different when all is said and done, but this is our starting point. we're going to go for it. >> the next question for you would be mark mckinnon in washington. mark? >> governor, great to see you. you sound like a man who has been freed. >> it's true. >> i love everything you're saying and i've always liked your politics and i'm sorry you didn't make it through the republican primary. but i think you can provide real political leadership whatever

you do going forward. i love your -- the things you're saying, you're already am ambassador for the no-labels message we have out there. trying to get no budget, no pay through, other things -- >> and mark, no tie, as well. >> that's right. he's also negative on ties. i want to know your favorite spinner song, but also, what do you think about the culture discussion that's been going on in the republican party over the last couple of weeks in. >> i think it's a total waste of time. i think it is taking us off message, taking us away from the big, bold stuff that needs to be addressed first and foremost and that's joblessness, period. until we can address our underlying economic challenges, that's debt, those are regulatory barriers that stand in the way of freeing up the marketplace, getting back on our feet in terms of international competitiveness. you get back to basics. so every moment, mark, that is spent talking about some nonsensical issue that isn't related to our core problem in this country is a moment of wasted time.

there are a lot of places where we can have these conversations, the presidential debate stage i think is not one of them. >> is it not unbelievable that we are now talking about 1965, griswold v. connecticut, a front-runner talking about contraception being wrong and promising to bring it up? when i was down in florida this weekend for presidents' day weekend, my wife very republican, she lectures me on pro-life issues. i believe in the exceptions and she just -- my former chief of staff and other women who have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate in their life just -- they started talking about the republicans and it wasn't safe for me to be there as a man, i got up and listened on the other side of the kitchen. i'm dead serious, you would have thought that these people had

never voted for republicans. they were so frightened by the direction of our party. again, i'm speaking, these are not crossover voters. these are rock-ribbed republicans who are asking, what the hell is going on with our party? >> not only is it a waste of air time, but it's a political loser at the end of the day because of the impact it has on the demographic you're talking about. the bigger issue here for me in terms of the conversations we're having or not having is the fact the younger generation in this country are peeling off. they're not getting involved anymore. if you look at the turnout rates, we're down and we're down because they think their vote doesn't matter anymore. we're down because they say campaigns are already rigged by the way they're financed that incumbents always win reelection and therefore their voice and vote don't matter anymore. when the next generation of this country, the greatest democracy

ever isn't willing to turn out to the polls and they start peeling away from the issues of the day, that should be an early warning sign that this country's in trouble. >> mark mckinnon, can an independent be elected president in 2012? >> absolutely, there's more registered dependents than there are republicans or democrats in a blind poll, even when people don't know who the ticket would be. 25% of voters say they support it with only 30% supporting a republican or democrat. so starting from scratch when they don't know who the ticket might be put jon huntsman on that ticket and get up to 51%, i guarantee. >> joe and mika, you're up near 60%. >> there's a huge story on the front page of the journal, the story talks about these big companies in china run by the state that are creating inefficiencies. your thoughts? is this something we should be worried about? how should we react to it? and how should china react? >> you've got a lot of state-owned enterprises that are crowding opportunities for american exports and american

companies. it is that way because of china's fear of the global economy. they want their export machine revved up because they've got foreign currency through their exports. they're able to maintain a more predictable economic trajectory through managing state-owned enterprises. the trick for xi jinping. he's going to have to wean some of these soes off their narcotic. he's going to have to do that with his wto commitments. he's going to have to do that in keeping with a lot of the loud voices of entrepreneurs in china who say we want to compete too, and we can't compete against these soes. now you've got to divide emerging china, which is called the soe community, state-owned enterprises. increasingly, a lot of very successful entrepreneurs in china and they look at the lay of the land and say this is broken.

he's going to have to play traffic cop. i would say 2013, 2014, 2015 are going to be extremely important years for china. >> u.s. manufacturers, entrepreneurs, suggests everything should open up. >> the reason they're not is this year and last is because they fear the international marketplace. nobody wants to make any reform in china when they aren't certain where the major markets, europe and north america are going to be. it also suggests a major rise in chinese politics of special interest groups, exporters, extraction industries, they're all major players and have future voices in politics unlike the days of old. i'll never forget they turned to me across the table at some point and say we have politics too in china. sometimes you in america don't realize that. and their system is terribly complicated, full of a lot of intricate and sensitive politics and anything they do is going to have to be run through that political prism.

>> great to see you again. come back, serious about you too. what's that? >> i'm serious about you too. that ticket. you're on display every morning. >> how about brzezinski/huntsman, huntsman/brzezinski? mark, you have brought so much enjoyment. seriously, baby, keep it up. live on the edge. >> see ya, mark. >> great to see you. >> great to have your voice out there. >> i'm going to get him. great to see you. >> up next, we have new jersey governor chris christie here on the set. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. >> you're trouble. how are you? the employee of the month isss...

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sometimes you may look at me and think i'm looking for a fight. not all the time. but i'll tell you this, i'm going to fight for the things that are worth fighting for. my mother used to tell me all the time, christopher, be yourself. because if you are, you're not going to have to worry tomorrow about remembering who you pretended to be yesterday. so, ladies and gentlemen, this is it. what you see is what you get. >> ladies and gentlemen, governor chris christie. >> oh, yeah. oh, yeah. >> really? >> i love that. >> joining us now. >> you like that? it's 1973 all over again. >> thanks for coming out here. >> all right. chris christie's with us.

>> do you remember when abc ran "heroes of rock 'n' roll" back in '78. they had -- it was the first time i ever saw springsteen live on tv and he was doing rosalita hair all over the place. i was transfixed. >> rock 'n' roll. >> that was the line. >> yep. >> it's a great line. >> not bad. not bad. >> chris. >> mika. good morning. >> can i call him chris? i can call you chris. >> you can call me whatever you like. >> here we go again. i'm going to be reading the "post" over here. >> you blame me for that line? >> my daughter is here. she's taking pictures, so try and look good. sit up straight. the debate last night. first of all, i'll give you a

softball, how do you think your candidate, mitt romney, and i put your candidate in quotes because you know how i feel about your endorsement of mitt romney. >> i know that. i think he did well last night. i don't think there was any clear knockout winner. i think just some people, you know, i think senator santorum had an awful night. and he gave an example of why we don't need another legislator in the white house. he's talking about, well -- he's saying, you know, i'm a team player, it's against my principle, but i voted for it. this is why you don't want somebody inside the beltway that long who has been a member of congress and had no other experience in his life other than that. >> have you ever said anything against your principles? >> not that i can think of. not that i can think of. >> there's a jarring line, wasn't it? >> it was. and i think -- >> by the way, i like rick a lot. i know him, i like him a lot. >> i know him and i like him.

i've known him for 18 years now. but i say in new jersey all the time, the art of compromise is understanding you can't get everything you want, but never compromising your principles. and there's always a boulevard between those points. and the job of governor or president is to get the government on that boulevard and moving down it. but you can't compromise your principles because then people don't know who you are. they don't know who you are, then they can't trust you. >> governor, if romney loses michigan, is he in trouble? >> no, i don't think so, joe. >> where were you born? >> jersey. >> what if you ran for president and lost jersey. >> i'd be mad. >> imagine if you were born in jersey and your father had been the governor of jersey? >> well -- >> so let me finish the question. >> my whole life would be different, joe. >> so let me ask my question again. is it bad news if your candidate

loses michigan? >> is it bad news? yes. is he in trouble? no. because everything's comparat e comparative. who's beating him in that group? and this has been my thought right from the beginning is that you asked me, mika, why i endorsed governor romney. and i said because of the people offering themselves for president of the united states in my party, it was clear he was the best of the group and the only one of the group i thought gave us a good chance of being the president. and so nothing that happened last night or if he were to lose michigan would change my evaluation of had that. >> if he loses michigan, you head down south and that probably is not one of his strong points. look at the evangelical vote which we talked about this morning, how that translates for romney. doesn't that suggest to voters in the south and other places that he doesn't have the luck, he may not be the best candidate? you have to put it in some context. >> yes, but our election -- you

know this, elections are about choice. you know, in the end, they're about picking someone. they're not about the demographics. i recognize that the demographics come temporarily more problematic. but you go into april and may, you're in pennsylvania, new york, new jersey, playing more to governor romney's strengths. in part of it the rules we have at this time, it's going to be elongated. >> you said policies as comparisons, the comparative contrast is governor romney versus senator santorum. >> correct. >> let's spin a hypothetical scenario. senator santorum beats governor romney and becomes the republican nominee. what do you think the party's reaction to that would be? how would he fair in the state of new jersey if he were the republican nominee for president? >> it would depend on how he conducted himself, jon. i think he would come in as any other republican. look, barack obama won new jersey by 17 points.

i think any republican's going to come in as a slight underdog. to be fair, i think governor romney would stand a better chance in new jersey than senator santorum -- >> when you're thinking mitt, you're thinking jersey, right? >> amen, brother. >> you think -- >> do you think there's any way that senator santorum is electable against barack obama? >> sure. you know -- >> come on, you don't believe that. >> i do. >> gas goes to $6 a gallon, if the economy turns back down and we start losing jobs again, you're telling me he's not electable. >> if martians attack. >> $6 gas and a downturn in the economy, he's more likely than martians attacking, a little. >> that was a very weak argument to win, but i'll give you -- >> how badly does governor romney's lack of support for the auto industry, how much will that affect him in michigan? is it affecting him in michigan

going forward? if he's the nominee, does that hurt his chances? >> put aside the merits of the argument. the accusation against mitt romney has been over time. if he takes the position that he later thinks is unpopular, he changes it or modifies it or tries to field it a little bit. he's not doing that. >> the substance for a second. what i'm saying is that one of the big accusations against him that he's a flip-flopper. and i think this is one of those moments where governor romney said, listen, i'm standing by this position, there are people who disagree with it. but i do think he deserves credit for standing by his principles. >> was he right? >> well, listen -- >> that's the question i'm asking. >> i haven't given enough thought to this thing -- >> in fairness. the government investment in the car industry worked. he's consistent, but he's

consistently wrong. >> it doesn't mean that something else wouldn't have worked also. my only point to you -- >> he didn't offer anything. he offered the opposite. >> he offered -- he offered a way that normally is done in american life which is control, planned bankruptcy where they work through -- >> which is what happened. the private market. the private sector should've come in, no private capital to come in. it's easier to say we're wrong in that and we've got to move forward. >> if he believes that. if he doesn't believe it, he shouldn't. >> do you believe? >> listen, i went through this the other night on tv. i'm not going to give you an off the cuff answer on something as complex as contributing billions of dollars to private industry with government investment. i haven't given enough thought. it is contrary to my general approach to things in terms of having government involved as little as possible in the private sector. i'm not going to give you an off the cuff answer. >> we're going to ask you about your budget in new jersey. but first, i have to ask about

the ron paul alliance. >> you brokered it? >> no, i've never met congressman paul, never spoken to him. >> those guys did everything but make out last night on stage. >> did you just say make out? >> i did. >> they can't do that in jersey now thanks to you. >> well -- >> no, no, what is your position -- i'm curious. i had heard that -- >> a referendum. >> i had heard before generally, we never talked about this, we don't focus a lot on social issues. i heard you were a little more libertarian about it. is that the not the case? >> not the case. >> do you support civil unions? >> yes. >> is you're like the president. you support civil unions -- >> but you're called a bigot for taking that position. and the president's called enlightened. >> because i'm a republican and he's a democrat. the democrats in my state are criticizing me saying my feet

are firmly planted on the wrong side of justice. i said yesterday, yeah, my feet are firmly planted right next to president obama. and they don't criticize him. >> and i seriously did not know the answer to these questions beforehand. is there any space between your position on gay marriage and president barack obama's position? he still gets standing ovations whenever he goes to any gay or lesbian group. >> not at all. offering strength to civil unions and be able to go after ask investigate any allegations of discrimination in civil unions and i've offered to have it on the ballot to amend our constitution through referendum that -- i think my position is pretty much where the president is. >> small difference. in fairness to president obama, he did applaud the decision in new york by governor cuomo to sign the bill. >> so he applauds other people's courage but doesn't have any of his own. >> exactly. >> you can't have it both ways.

did you applaud? >> no, i didn't. >> no, we're talking about other issues. hold on a second. we're talking about words versus actions. the president of the united states could today come out and say this. hold on. here we go. no, stop. hold on. this is what the president said. i support gay marriage. and it's over. he won't do it. he's scared to do it. >> but neither will -- >> the democrats in the legislature, not all voted for it. all i'm saying -- >> i don't disagree with you. there's a hypocrisy against democrats. not a word about the president's position on this. >> i'm going to agree with you on that. >> they're attacking me on it. it's okay. i've got broad shoulders, i don't care. >> if it's a state referendum, will you support it? >> you put it on the referendum and i'll be ruled by what the people of new jersey want to do, but i vetoed the bill and if

they passed it again, i'd veto it again. >> but if the people of new jersey want gay marriage, fine. >> let the people's will. and you need 3/5 to get it on the ballot, and i called on every republican to vote yes to put it on the ballot. the democratic leadership and the legislature has said under no circumstances will they put it on the ballot. >> why not? >> they think it'll lose. >> they say it's because it's a civil rights issue and it shouldn't be on the ballot. and they'll also tell me part of the reason i shouldn't sign the bill was the majority of new jersey wants it. and i said prove it. >> i don't understand -- >> i don't understand why they won't put it on the ballot. >> it's the question i'm going to ask. do you not suspect the reason they won't put it on the ballot is their assessment is there's a reasonable chance it would lose. >> i think it's a jump ball in new jersey. as it is in most places and

maybe they don't want to engage in a jump ball. all i can tell you is what they say publicly. there's nothing to do with whether it'll pass or fail, everything to do with civil rights shouldn't be on the ballot. i'm giving them the pass way to prove the point they're trying to make which is what the majority of new jersey residents want. >> someone behind you was going like this. then he almost passed out. i put a mike on him. what's your question? >> i'm alive and well. governor christie, i heard you say that you have your feet firmly planted next to president obama on this issue, but the key difference between you and the president is while you support putting the civil rights of that minority up for a public referendum, the president is not in favor of that. >> has he said that, jonathan? jonathan, has he said that? i haven't heard him say that. >> that he would -- >> i heard him say he was opposed to it.

have you? have you heard him say it? i haven't heard him say it. >> the president has said he -- >> he's silent on the issue. >> he's not silent on this. >> governor christie, he is not. the president and the justice department have made it clear that they believe the so-called defensive marriage act is unconstitutional. they're not supporting it in the court cases. as president of the united states, would you support that? >> he's told his lawyers -- >> would you support that? >> hold on, hold on. jonathan, first of all, i used to be a prosecutor. i'm not going to be cross-examined by you this morning. >> i'm having fun trying. >> and you're going to lose. so let's move on. >> i would love for you to answer the question. >> here's the answer of the question. let's have the president of the united states have some courage, come on this program and look in a camera and state his position. he won't because he wants to have it both ways. i'm not looking to have it both ways, i vetoed the bill.

that's my position. what i've ofred to the supporters is if one of your reasons for why i should have voted signed it was because you're telling me the majority of the people of new jersey want it, then prove it. put it on the ballot and prove it. at least i'm standing up for what i believe in. the president has hidden on this issue. jonathan, he's hidden on it. he wants to have it both ways and the public pronouncements of the president -- >> i disagree with you on that. >> the president opposes same-sex marriage, jonathan. that's the way it is. >> jojonathan, would you agree hasn't been vocal? >> has he come on out and said i'm in favor of same-sex marriage? no. he's said he's evolving on the issue. >> after -- >> again, i agree -- >> evolution -- >> hold on. hold on. >> this is the cycle.

>> hold on. okay. we're going to do this one at a time. jonathan, so you say he's evolving on the issue. >> i said the president said he's evolving on the issue, but through the justice department and in his own pronouncements, he doesn't believe the so-called defensive marriage act is constitutional, and he's directed all federal lawyers to not defend -- >> i'm with governor christie on this. the president can't have it both ways on this. i was taken on when i looked 2 1/2 years ago to run for senate of new york by a community of people in new york city who believed i was opposed to same-sex marriage. i had the same position as the president, which was criticized for during a period of time when i ran for senate. and i agree, you deserve protection in defense of that. the president should be more forthright. but i say this, the only problem i have putting it up for a vote is i wonder if, indeed, when women didn't have the right to vote, and i'm wondering when african-americans in the civil rights act should have been put

up for a vote. i don't suggest you were against those things, i do think there's a legitimate argument in, perhaps, a legitimate conversation that should be had around that. i applaud you, though, for being consistent on this, and in all fairness to jonathan, the president has not said that. if i was critical of you, i want to make sure you give credit when you deserve it. >> i appreciate it. we're having a conversation about it. that's what this is all about. and people asked me, why didn't i want to put it on the ballot. and i said you'd have to ask them. >> i'm glad the civil rights issue in the '60s was not put on the ballot. >> they have a governor that campaigned saying i wouldn't sign the same-sex marriage bill. i vetoed it and i'm trying to give them an alternative to get where they want to get to and be governed by the people of my state. i think that's a pretty good offer. if they don't want to take it, they don't have to take it. >> harold, i need to ask you this question, would you -- and then i'll ask jonathan the same

thing. would you compare the status of a relationship and how it is recognized officially by a state to little children being blown up in birmingham -- let me finish. i always say this comparison between what african-americans struggled with for 300 years and what gay and lesbians are struggling with now. would you compare those two things? or to tearing the flesh off of african-americans because they only want to be able to eat at the same lunch counters, go to the same schools, ride in the front of buses. would you compare those morally? and this offends john heilemann, i can tell by the way he's smirking -- >> you're framing the issue in a totally unfair way. >> no, i'm not.

i'm stating the two realities. >> i know where joe is going with this and i happen to agree. there's a difference in my mind between the civil rights act and marriage. now, having said that, i believe that people of the same gender should be allowed to marry. i don't like the comparison because there's a gravity difference. >> right. >> i would get that comparison, however, i do believe that the point about civil rights and it being on the ballot, if you decide marriage is a civil right, which i do not, then one has an argument to govern -- >> they're yelling in my ear, but we've got to give the last word to jonathan. would you compare the civil rights struggles to african-americans over 300 years in america -- >> yes, because it's an issue of civil rights, an issue of equality, of equal treatment under the law. it's an issue of whether -- if i were to get married to my partner and we were to have children, my children would have the same protections that your children have because you're

able to legally marry. no one is asking for special rights, no one is asking for any kind of special favors. they're just looking for the same rights and responsibilities that come with marriage. and also the protections that are provided under marriage. in that regard, we're talking overall a civil rights issue. and what african-americans continue to struggle with is exactly what people are struggling with today. >> we'll give you the last word on that topic. governor christie, we'll ask you in closing, what's your favorite spinners song. >> what? >> no, listen, i refuse to answer that. >> you don't know. >> you know what it is? because you're minimizing our discussion this morning, joe, by bringing up the spinners. >> no, i'm not. >> and by the way -- >> hold on a second. i'm sorry. the last time i checked, you were -- i don't know if you think this cross-examine routine you do with gail on public a

access in new jersey is going to work on me. but brother, guess what, you've got the wrong man in front of you. and i guarantee you, if you want this fight, you're going to lose. >> my favorite spinners song. >> yeah. >> none of your business. >> chris christie, the governor of the great state of new jersey. thanks so much. and just to note, the governor's going to be joining us for a special town hall meeting on location. >> so excited. >> we're inviting gail. we want this to be the smackdown of the garden state. we'll be right back. jonathan, thanks for joining in. >> great conversation. [ female announcer ] the best things in life are the real things. nature valley trail mix bars are made with real ingredients you can see. like whole roasted nuts, chewy granola, and real fruit. nature valley trail mix bars. 100% natural. 100% delicious. forty years ago, he wasn't looking for financial advice. back then he had something more important to do.

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we're following breaking news. where an afghan official says two american troops were killed today by a gunman wearing an afghan national army uniform. let's go to the pentagon, nbc's chief pentagon correspondent. jim, what can you tell us? >> well, for the u.s. military, there are a lot of nightmare scenarios there in afghanistan. and this, of course, is one of the worst. it was in an eastern outpost near the pakistan border overnight that an individual, again, wearing an afghan uniform believed to be one of those afghan trainees that the u.s. is working with. opened fire with a machine gun killing two americans, wounding four others. and it's said by sources here in the pentagon that his motive appeared to be a reaction

revenge for the burning of the korans up at bagram air base over the weekend. and all along while there has been some concern about those mass demonstrations, three more people killed today in those protests there in afghanistan over the burning of korans, the larger concern here in the pentagon is exactly what we saw today that one individual who is working with americans armed fighting side by side suddenly looks at the americans and said you burned my koran and shoots and kills them. that's the long-term fear. there's been a huge spike in those kinds of killings and they see no end to it any time soon. >> thank you so much. we greatly appreciate that. that update. boy, bad news. just more and more bad news out of afghanistan. there's a tweet i can't quote verbatim, but i agree with doug as he says breaking news, we need to get the blank out of afghanistan right now.

i would think the majority of americans are moving to this position. we've been there for too long and the price is too high. we'll be right back with russ feingold. ♪

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per serving and are now weight watchers-endorsed. try green giant frozen vegetables with sauce. welcome back to "morning joe." former senator from wisconsin, the author of "while america sleeps" and you were one of the few democrats who remained consistent on afghanistan whether there was a democrat or republican in the white house. we were talking about this three years ago. >> yep. >> about the short-sightedness of u.s. foreign policy. it's only gotten worse. we've tripled down the number of troops there. the killing continues. when are we bringing our troops home? >> i'll never forget the report from one of your reporters after the decision was made by president obama to do the surge of troops. you candidly said this will end in tears. and this is where we're at.

i voted for the afghan invasion. the last thing i did before 9/11 was being with harold ford in memphis about campaign finance reform. we weren't thinking about this threat of al qaeda. we didn't see the clues coming. we didn't see the signs. and so of course we needed to go into afghanistan. i voted for it. but staying there forever simply because we're there is what i call in the book our in for a penny in for a pound strategy. we think we need to go into a place and stay there forever. we need to come out. i proposed a timetable to get out as you pointed out sometime ago and i think the president knows we got to get out of there but it's time. >> doesn't know how. "while america sleeps" you talk about some of the mistakes we made following 9/11. it's been a tough ten years for the united states across the globe. what is the main mistake we've made as a country? >> you remember we got a good start. president bush did a good job.

we were unified with regard to afghanistan. clearly the iraq war took us off and divided us and also led us to sort of this country by country strategy. i compare it to the game of risk. instead of looking at an organization which the president himself said was active in 60 places in the world northern africa and indonesia, so we got off thinking wrong about it. the next phase was stopping talking about foreign policy completely. that's what i'm really worried about. ever since the tea party came along and brilliantly said we're not going to talk about social issues they also didn't want to talk about foreign policy. partly because of the bush legacy. partly because president obama has done pretty well. so now what we have is a country basically being told the threat's over. you can relax. you know what? we can't relax. we can't go back the threat is still there. >> absolutely. >> what is the biggest threat to the united states right now? >> well, we have a variety of threats. obviously the iranian situation, the competition with the chinese, but to devalue and distrust the retallet that al qaeda is still active is wrong. they are active in somalia.

they are active in northern africa in the al qaeda islamic magra. they are active i think in nigeria, very active through a group that hasn't been directly linked to al qaeda. they pulled off about 70 attacks in the last year and killed 180 people in six different attacks january 20th. who is talking about is it and what does that remind you of? the clues are there. >> are we making the same mistake in iran as we were making in the lead up to the war in iraq or is the threat different? >> here is the problem. obviously iran has to be prevented from having a nuclear weapon but the notion we all just talk about iran now and that's all we can do is think about one thing at a time when the other threats and issues are there is to me a problem. we can't have this one thing at a time view and all americans have to be asked to be part of having a better connection to the rest of the world. that's what "while america sleeps" talks about in a positive way. we need to learn foreign

languages and be aware of what is going on in other countries and ask americans as individuals and help them go to other countries whether it's a violinist or a dairy farmer or construction worker. we need to have a presence in the rest of the world. the chinese get that. the iranians get that. the russians get that. we don't get it. >> because we can talk so much during the chris christie segment we don't have a lot of time but i have to say you really have to -- rein it in a little bit mika. >> sorry. >> i have to talk about campaign finance reform. you look at all the money with the super pacs. >> this decision has to be overturned and i believe it will be. i already believe the pressure from this looming disaster will cause something to happen. i think the way it will happen is the president will be re-elected and probably will get one or two choices with the supreme court. they're already talking about rehearing the case. this thing cannot continue. >> former senator russ feingold, thank you. >> the book is "while america

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to set-ups, to tune-ups. stapes. that was easy. ♪ i mean what i say >> good thursday morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. >> beautiful. welcome back to "morning joe." what a day. >> what a beautiful day. >> what a show we've had. >> what a show. >> you all are out of control. seriously need to get it together. back with us onset. >> we have a lot to probe this morning. >> yeah. okay. >> virginia backing down. >> you're funny. >> john is with us.

>> and jonathan capehart. harold ford jr. and in washington mark mckinnon. >> mark, let's start with you. >> who won? >> not who won. what -- did you see tootsie, mark? >> we're off his clothes now. you know that scene, one of my favorite scenes was when you had bill murray walking out of the theater and he said, what i want is when people see my play i want them to leave the theater and turn to each other and know, what happened? what just happened? so let me ask you about the republican debate last night. what happened? >> well, the main thing that i think happened was that rick santorum really needed to punch through last night. he really needed to have a big performance. he was incredibly defensive. it showed the problem of having been a legislator with a long record and two words that he said last night really jumped out at me.

when he defended his vote for no child left behind he said he was, quote, a team player. i totally support that legislation. i think it was great legislation but to say i voted for it as a team player is exactly what voters don't want. i think that's a big problem. >> i think it's a huge problem. mark, of course, you know i disagree with no child left behind. i was on the education committee. they broke both of my arms. i stumbled on to the house floor. the bush administration -- they were coming down on me, threatening me. you remember before 9/11 this was a bush administration's number one priority. and i voted against it and other conservatives voted against it. so to hear somebody now saying well i was just being a team player, that doesn't wash it for me. if you want to -- if that is your vision of the education system in america defend it but, mark, for the republicans especially you say, ah, i was

just doing this to get along -- a nightmare. >> that's not leadership. he had another line where he said i voted for that. it was against my principles. that's not what republican primary voters want to hear. i think it's problematic. >> let's take a moment and play that sound bite and watch it as it happened. take a look. >> i supported no child left behind. i supported it. it was the principal priority of president bush to try to take on a failing education system and try to improve -- impose some sort of testing regime that would be able to quantify how well we're doing with respect to education. i have to admit i voted for that. it was against the principles i believed in but, you know, when you're part of the team sometimes you take one for the team for the leader and i made a mistake. you know, politics is a team sport, folks. >> once again, the senator was for no child left behind but now he is running for president now he's running to repeal no child

left behind once again. but -- and he calls this a team sport. he has to go along to get along and that's the way the team plays. that's what the problem is with washington. that's what's been going on for so long. >> you know, john, especially because that vote -- i mean, we can see it coming. i say we, i'm talking the conservatives who in the 1990s were on the cutting edge of a conservative revolution. so to have santorum say, oh, sometimes it's a team sport, no. you respectfully disagree. but this -- i can't think of anything worse. by the way, for the record, mitt romney enthusiastically -- >> of course. >> supported no child left behind either. so we're just -- we've got the sound bite here so he's taking it. you get two guys who were out of the main stream of conservative thought. >> in a way, for santorum, look. he is supposed to be the conservative alternative to mitt romney. that is what his role is and that is why he's been doing well. if you think about that issue,

you think about him talking about his support for arlen specter, if you think about him defending earmarks throughout the debate -- >> can i stop you there for one second on one key point, the conservatives remember? >> yeah. >> he supported arlen specter against pat toomey. one of the few people we could remember, the other day, who actually voted against bush's $7 trillion boondoggle for medicare. >> so supporting specter against toomey and earmarks, that sounds like he's way deep in the weeds talking about earmarks, give him an opportunity to define himself with one word, choose the word courageous rather than conservative. instead of saying i am the conservative alternative he allowed himself to fall into the place romney wants him which is not an authentic conservative and a creature of washington. that's how he came across last

night. i don't think romney scored any big knockouts last night but santorum did himself no good in his cause of advancing himself as a conservative alternative and in that sense it is like a win by default for the former governor of massachusetts. >> i remember when gary hart got into trouble in 1988 and one thing that really hurt him was that he had been a crusader against the excesses of the reagan administration and almost sounded self-righteous about a lot of things he said. so you're like okay. mr. self-righteous. nobody accused bill clinton of that four years later and maybe that's why he survived and hart didn't. if santorum is going to be so self-righteous on so many other issues he can't be shocked when people call him out. >> exactly. >> and sound like a hypocrite on the issues he decides to waffle on. >> you're absolutely right. and the other thing, remember a few days ago he had this sound bite where people were pushing him on his views on contraception and other things. can't remember the specifics, the specific thing he said, but

he said, look. i'm a man of principle. you know, you can trust that when i say something i believe it as a sort of veiled shot at mitt romney who has been all over the place on every issue. there he is at this debate saying i went against my principles. i go along to get along. it took one for the team. politics is a team sport. to me that's probably the most shocking clip in the entire debate. >> harold, let's switch subjects now to the -- i think the thing that went unspoken but everybody knows and that is that mitt romney and ron paul had formed an alliance. it is such an obvious alliance that mitt romney would do well to just come out and admit it. i don't know what he's promised ron paul. i don't know if ron paul is hoping that his son gets in the administration but let's swruft be really honest here. for all people, for ron paul to form an alliance with, in the republican party, to pick out

mitt romney is really bizarre. >> if you think about it -- >> unless the alternative is newt gingrich or rick santorum. >> he knows gingrich, probably doesn't get along with him. santorum as you and i both know is not well liked among his current members of the senate and the house and some former colleagues of his. he is not a likeable guy. they suggest and intimate there is some disingenuousness there as we saw last night. not everybody watched this debate but what everybody will watch and hear is this analysis and this morning it's very consistent with what you're hearing across the media landscape which suggests as jonathan said in the strongest terms that this principle, this guy's presented himself as a principled conservative. last night not only was shown not to be but admitted he was not. this was a win for romney. whether it was a knockout i don't know but certainly puts him into the driver's seat as he heads into michigan and will strengthen his lead as he stays in arizona. the white house's projection that mitt romney will be their opponent in the fall is looking

more and more like the right one and as they prepare more and more for him they'll be more and more prepared. >> mika, there is no substitution for organization in presidential politics. you saw last night again with the crowd. >> mm-hmm. >> that mitt romney out organized everybody. anybody that believes -- >> yes. >> that there are that many people in a random crowd of republicans who would be that excited about mitt romney, you also believe in the tooth fairy. >> tooth fairy. >> i want to be careful because some kids wake up with their parents and watch this show. >> that's right. that's real. that's not a good analysis. >> i stopped myself in the tracks because the kids are watching. >> exactly. i want to ask you and mark mckinnon about how these alliances are actually -- >> i'm sorry. i didn't mean to laugh. i just saw the most interesting man in the world. >> that scarf. >> take a chance is what i always say. >> distracted by it. in a strange way. >> you look great, mark.

>> even if you make a terrible, terrible mistake like he has, take a chance. >> mark, i know what that's like. but the alliance. here's ron paul not holding back when it comes to attacking rick santorum. last night he was asked about his latest michigan ad bite. >> we have a new television ad that labels him a fake. why? >> because he's a fake. >> i'm real. i'm real. >> congratulations. >> thank you. >> no, i find it really fascinating that when people are running for office they're fiscally conservative. when they're in office they do something different. then when they explain themselves they say oh, i want to repeal that. so the senator voted for no child left behind but now he voted for it but now he is running on the effort to get rid of it. >> let's go to our panel of experts right now. >> yes. >> which one should we go to, mika? what do you think? t.j., can you put it up please?

>> oh, okay. >> let's try the other one. >> yeah. >> all right. yes. >> so, mark, let's go to mark mckinnon. keep that up while mark answers, please. mark, come on. what's the deal here? you know that there's either a spoken or unspoken deal between mitt romney -- this is the sort of thing nobody in the media likes to talk about. >> it happens. >> but everybody in the game knows is going on. i mean, is ron paul hoping that his son gets a job in the cabinet? >> who cuts the deal? >> is he hoping his son will be the -- >> who says it? >> what is going on here? there is a deal between these two guys. >> have you ever done one of those? >> here is the interesting thing. it's not just santorum but if you go back, ron paul has been a devastating attack dog against first rick perry then newt gingrich and now santorum spending millions of dollars with i think the most effective negative advertising in the whole campaign. i mean, he's been throwing out

daisy cutters clearing the way for mitt romney all along. it's a wink and a nod and never any spoken deals on these sort of things. but it's pretty clear what's going on and, you know, he has been the full back, you know, created blocking in front of romney this whole time. >> so where are we right now? where do we stand right now in michigan, john? do you agree with the chatter out there that if romney can't put santorum away and i suspect he will in michigan but if he can't are we moving toward the possibility of a brokered convention? >> well, first on what's going on i spent sometime in michigan last week. there's no question. i think it is going to be quite close. most people in the michigan democrat -- michigan republican political world think that romney's -- you talk about organization a second ago. romney's organization in the state is incredibly deep, incredibly strong. on the other hand you do have a lot of grass roots enthusiasm for santorum and the tea party and among evangelical voters. so it's going to be neck and

neck but i think most people think romney is going to pull it out. if he does you still have a difficult super tuesday for romney because the truth is there are a lot of states, oklahoma, tennessee, alaska, georgia, where there is a very high percentage of evangelical voters so it is not like romney has a clean sweep on super tuesday. but he must win michigan. and if he doesn't win michigan he'll be in very serious trouble. no question about that. >> jonathan, gingrich had a good night last night. i thought he was more in control because he is way behind. he's always better when he's behind. gingrich could still make a run through the south. >> at least that's what he's hoping. he's putting all his eggs in the march 6th basket on super tuesday and even during the debate he was so relaxed to the point where he was sort of slumped over in the chair looking like -- sit back and watch the debate unfold around him. >> if romney is able to win michigan and arizona, joe, you have a greater appreciation than

any at the table. southern republicans want to rally. they want to win. as much as gingrich will i think do well in georgia and is likely to do well in my home state of tennessee i think if romney does well in the next week or so he will find himself in the driver's seat heading toward super tuesday. >> i think so. >> republicans and democrats on super tuesday like to validate their leader on that day if you look back historically. i'd love to hear your opinion on that. >> if romney does well in michigan and arizona i think the south, conservative with a big and small "c" will jump to the front-runner and at least will make sure that he doesn't have -- he's not too bloodied up in the south. but if he loses michigan -- >> i would agree with you. >> -- and if arizona is close -- but if he loses michigan all bets are off and i think you need to start looking at newt gingrich having a good march. and then, we're marching toward a -- not a brokered convention but contested. >> santorum's momentum if he --

if romney loses michigan santorum's momentum will be incredibly strong. he is showing right now a ten-point national lead. and he's pulling ahead in state polls by a long way in places like oklahoma and california. other places like -- that is not to say romney can't -- if romney wins michigan that momentum could be halted but if rick santorum wins michigan he is going to roll out with a big head of steam into a lot of these states. as i'll say again, five or six states on super tuesday have evangelical populations over 40%. that is a big bulwark for rick santorum in terms of base votes. >> i agree. by the way, if that happens we'll be talking about contraception. >> oh, god. >> in the coming weeks and months. i mean, this is not -- i'm serious here. this is a guy who i like, who i told you i have supported in the past. who believes that griswold -- the connecticut should be overturned. has said -- why do i bring that up? i bring that up because when

romney was ahead we were talking about the 1% because he was the face of the party. when santorum is ahead, we're going to be talking about contraception and it's going to scare a lot of republican women. forget democrats. forget independents. it's not that he needs to get out and make a definitive statement. >> yeah. one that that keeps it in the lane. because there is a lot of stuff he's written as well that i think women question. >> breaking news out of virginia yesterday. let's go to the most interesting man in the world. >> yeah. >> it seems, you know, yesterday morning i suggested -- >> i don't know how this happened. >> i suggested it mark buchanan and i am not sure if it's the case but i suggested state sanctioned vaginal probes may not be a good way to win swing voters in states like virginia. i'm not sure if you have polling or focus groups to back that up with women but i do. >> you don't need it. >> from my wife and her very pro life, very republican friends who were horrified at that. bob mcdonald stepped back

yesterday from the cliff and said he wouldn't support that part of the bill. very interesting. >> he tried to -- republicans are supposed to be against big government inserting themselves into our lives and then we have this situation in virginia where the republicans are literally trying to insert themselves into women's bodies. >> okay. coming up next, senator kirsten gillibrand joins us onset to talk about how women's health issues have quickly become a focal point in politics. we're actually going to have a serious conversation. you all can leave if you want to. >> also coming up "time" magazine's rick stangl takes us inside what could prove to be the crucial swing vote of the election. plus -- >> oh, boy. >> from the legendary e street band and the sopranos. steven van zandt joins us in a few minutes. but first, here is the talent list of bill karins. he doesn't sing. he doesn't act. hell. he can't even do weather well. >> generic. >> very generic. very bland. bill? >> well, not the kraft macaroni and cheese. kind of like just the noodles with the sauce that's not quite as good.

i understand. it's fine. i can live with that reputation. good morning everyone. let's talk snow. we are actually going to see it coming down. chicago, as far as you've been we've only seen about 16 inches of snow this winter. the last two winters you had over 50 inches. we'll add to your total late tonight into tomorrow. snow coming down now in areas of south dakota. that's going to be heading toward chicago late today. i think detroit is going to get some, too. it doesn't look like a blockbuster snow event. it's a narrow band of hef i, wet snow but 4 to 8 inches in chicago, detroit the same for you. areas up in the great lakes. doesn't look like you'll get too much else. this storm will move into new england on friday. only the ski resorts will really get the snow. some areas in maine, central and southern new england plain old rain into friday. today is a beautiful day on the east coast. the southern half of the country, what a fantastic two-day stretch. today 80s in texas. ridiculous stuff from the generic weather guy. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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>> since birth control is the latest hot topic which candidate believes in birth control and if not why? as you can see, it's a very popular question. >> very popular question in the audience as we can see. we're not going to spend a ton of time on this. but please. >> can i just make a point? >> sure. >> these guys are going to use feedback. >> look. two quick points.

the first is there is a legitimate question about the power of the government to impose on religion activities which any religion opposes. that is legitimate. but i want to point out you did not once in the 2008 campaign, not once did anybody in the elite media ask why barack obama voted in favor of legalizing infanticide. if we're going to have a debate about who the extremist is on these issues it is president obama who as a state senator vote today protect doctors who kill babies who survive the abortion. it is not the republican. >> bear with us now. democratic senator of new york senator kirsten gillibrand and "time" magazine managing editor rick stangl on the new issue of "time" which is why latinos will pick the next president. >> you didn't say the spanish line, mika. >> they decide.

good to have you onboard. kirsten, great to see you. >> great to see you. >> do we want to talk about that sound bite we just ran? >> should we? >> well, the thing is, i mean, if they want to have that discussion they can have that discussion and it is fair to bring up the president's record but it's not fair for the crowd to boo that question i don't think when you have a front-runner, senator, who has said he thinks contraception is wrong and he said in october of last year that when he ran for president he was going to talk about it and explain why it was wrong. >> i think it's crazy, so out of step with the public, with america's women. 99% of america's women have used birth control in their lifetime. this is basic health care. the debate we've been having about whether bosses should make the determination of what medicines an employee should be able to take is unconscionable.

>> it seems like 20 years ago or 30. >> 50 years ago. it is so out of step with the american public and the ability of a woman to make decisions about her health care and what is best for her and her family. >> i wouldn't disagree. you started 1 million strong for women with senator boxer. tell us about this initiative. >> well, i think in light of the debates we've been having since the republican congress came into office it's really important america's women are heard in our political debates. we only have 17% women in congress. we only have six governors who are women. and i am finding that this constant focus on taking away basic rights for women, basic access to health care, funding for title 10, reproductive health care, it is a step in which women's voices are not being heard. i am asking america's women to be heard. we want a million women to not only say what they feel on this issue but hold their elected

leaders accountable. that's what it's about. >> so let's talk about it. this was formed back during the hhs debate. do you agree with the president's compromise that he made with the catholic church? >> i think the president made a very respectful compromise. i think the first one was respectful. he excluded 300,000 institutions that have primarily religious missions and their employees are of the same religion. where he did not exclude are major employers like hospitals and universities that are part of every day commerce and these kinds of institutions, the bosses and employers should not make those basic health care decisions for their employees. i think that was fair. i think it was respektdfctful a reasonable. >> can you understand why alifes the president and the catholic church whether talking about sister carol who runs the catholic health association or john kerry or e.j. dionne, chris matthews, can you understand why they were concerned about the h

hhs rules? >> no i actually don't agree with their viewpoint. >> i know you don't agree but say somebody like sister carol who is a big supporter of the president's health care. planning is seen as a bit progressive. >> i think the president made a very respectful compromise. he did make the acknowledgment that a church for example with church employees that are all of the catholic faith could make that decision for that church. when you're talking about large employers it's always been the state of the law in recent history that an employer doesn't get to make those judgments. they don't get to pick and choose which laws they're going to enforce. they don't get to pick and choose which labor laws they think are legitimate. we've made that decision. so i think this was something consistent with where we are in america for new york state. we've had that law in place for ten years. i think it was 28 states around the country already had the compromise where they'd say these larger institutions have to follow the rest of the laws that everybody else has to

follow. >> but my question is do you understand how some would have concerns over religious liberties on the left? >> of course. and you can understand their viewpoint. i just disagree with the outcome. >> rick, can you understand why we are talking about griswold v. connecticut and issues that i believe in the late 1980s when we were studying griswold v. connecticut, contraception, issues regarding right to privacy, can you believe we're debating something that was settled 40 years ago. >> it is kind of amazing. but actually joe klein has a column this week showing that americans are not as resolved about this as they once were before, that the pro life forces have actually increased their share in terms of the mind share of people in america. >> on abortion. but not on contraception. >> no. on contraception, i mean, you know, whatever the -- justice

brandox's line about the great civilized right of mankind is their right to be left alone. women want to be left alone on this subject and make their own choices and the fact that it's coming back into the public debate is not something that's -- >> quite frankly women have to carry the load on it. we'd rather be left alone carrying the load. >> exactly. >> seriously don't get in our way since you don't do anything about it anyway all men in hearing. >> mika, if we had 51% of women in congress do you think we'd be debating access to contraception? >> no. >> no we wouldn't. we'd be debating the economy, talking about jobs and how do we get manufacturing in this country again. >> yes. >> how do we make sure we unleash our entrepreneurial potential. that's what we'd be talking about. >> rick, you're talking about latino voters. >> yes. >> which again, like many african-american voters are conservative with a small "c". >> yes where the church is a central, organizing foundation of the community. especially so with hispanic

voters. why are republicans missing the mark? >> ronald reagan used to say that hispanics are republicans. they just don't know it yet. and in fact if i were a counseling the republican party i would say you should become the hispanic party. hispanics in terms of social issues tend to be more towards republicans. a little more progressive on financial issues when it comes to being related to democrats but that is a real potential source of voters for republicans and they're not resolved. i mean, we were talking about this before. george bush 43 got 44% of the hispanic vote. last time president obama got about 2/3 of them. now, you know, as our story shows by michael scherer hispanics are up in the air. they feel he hasn't offered an immigration bill and now they're independent. >> up for grabs, jonathan. >> senator, you were talking about the program you started and what i didn't hear you say

is whether this is a bipartisan group. >> it's not. it's called -- well, the million women strong is just an online petition to be heard. we're not saying just democratic women. we're asking all women to be heard. my other campaign is called off the sidelines which is a call to action for all america's women to vote, make sure they're being heard at the ballot box, going and voting their views. but also being heard on the debates. you know, blogging, twittering. making sure they're focused on their representatives understanding their priorities. >> on the contraception issue, given what you're doing, are you hearing from republican women who. >> yes. >> cannot believe as, you know, joe has been talking about for the last couple days, they cannot believe that frrepublica candidates are taking the positions they're taking? >> yes. in fact if you start with the principle that 99% of america's women have taken contraception in their lifetime, this is basic health care for women. so i think it's mind boggling,

baffling that we're having a debate about whether your boss should say whether or not you're allowed to take it. as you've said, this is griswold versus connecticut. >> right. >> the right to marital privacy. you get to make these decisions yourself. so to be debating something that's been long settled and is part of every day health care for women, i think, is so out of step. it's out of step with where we are as america. and having that right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness except if you're a woman just doesn't make sense. >> rick, you have joe klein's article talking about how this abortion issue is actually more up for grabs now than it's been in 30, 40 years. you also have a rich laurie article talking about the erosion of marriage as an institution and shocking information about young males especially in their 20s and 30s just not getting married anymore. staying home playing video games. >> they are. >> apparently they're the ones

who are going to lose out. >> does that mean my sons aren't going to get married because they're staying home playing video? there was that story in "the times" this week about the fact that half of all people under 30 do not marry. half of all births are out of wedlock. so rich's piece is basically about, you know, the family, the marriage, the union is the foundation of american democracy. that's his view. and he feels like it's being eroded. >> yeah. all right. >> wow. senator kirsten gillibrand, so great to have you back on the show. >> pleasure to be here. thanks for having meenchts rick stangl as always thank you. >> thank you, rick. >> the new issue of "time" yo decido, why latinos will pick the next president. when we come back stevie van zandt joins us here onset. keep it right here on "morning joe." the employee of the month isss... the new spark card from capital one. spark miles gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. the spark card earns double miles...

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molly barker created a program focused on teaching optimism and gratitude participants follow a ten-week curriculum building up to a 5-k running event. barker looks to pass on lessons of team building, self-value, and community, one step forward at a time. this msnbc profile in progress is brought to you by cappella university. matter. >> excuse me? [ speaking in foreign language ] >> i'm sorry. i don't understand. >> oh, the sheep head.

very good. >> for a minute there i thought i was going to have to give johnny fontaine a movie part. >> that's incredible. a clip from an original series on netflix about a new york gangster in norway. >> you thought somebody was sending you a message. >> now steven van zandt who is also the guitarist of the e street band. you just have a few things that you do. >> oh, my gosh. >> and write about politics on the side. you're perfect. >> let's start by talking about playing at the grammys. obviously -- >> that was cool. >> very bitter sweet for you. very bitter sweet for the band. the first time you've played without clarence. did you guys get together and talk before you went on stage? what happened? >> well, yeah. he's a guy you don't replace, you know, and we never -- we also lost our organ player a few

years ago so this is our second comrade falling. you have to carry on their work and decide what to do and in that case we went with the string section for grammys and for the tour will have a five piece horn section with two sax players who will emerge and perform those parts. >> yeah. >> you know, rather than trying to replace them exactly in that spot on the stage, which is just impossible. >> exactly. >> you have so much going on. you see another big tour coming up. what are your thoughts? are you excited about it? is it good news/bad news? >> it's an occasion for me. people think how do you do all that work? the tour is a vacation. my work begins when i leave the stage. it's nothing but fun. >> that's great. >> reconnecting with the fans and we have the best audience in the world. we really do. >> so we were talking earlier

about the first time i ever saw you guys play live. it was on i don't know if you remember in '78 abc had "heroes of rock 'n roll" and it showed you guys doing rosalita from '73. can you imagine when you started playing for bruce springsteen that it would lead you where it led you? just remarkable. >> my gosh. >> well, we couldn't imagine getting as big as it did because just earning a living playing rock 'n roll was impossible. you know? it was an impossible dream. >> like stealing money. larceny. >> larceny is easier. this is difficult. especially coming from new jersey. there was just no hope. you were done. you know? but we hung in there, you know. worked out pretty good. >> let's talk about little hammer. netflix has decided to take a jump into original programming and how exciting that they picked your series first. >> hysterical. and strange. and crazy. >> it is. >> totally off the wall.

>> it's a very unusual choice for the first original program. it says a lot about them. they really are visionaries these guys. and, you know, they wanted to make a statement i think that, you know, they're going to be supportive of pure art and the creative process. and this is a show about the norwegian tv with subtitles. we used the premise that my character understands norwegian but doesn't speak it right? >> right. >> which actually happens over there quite often. a very difficult language to speak. so i say if it actually happens let's try it in the show as an experiment and that worked out quite well because it changes the whole subtitle thing as you're watching it. you tend to forget about the subtitles. >> so really quickly, this is a norwegian tv series that netflix is picking up. >> the premise is the gangster goes there for protection. >> let's talk about politics for a second. i just mentioned i was a huge fan of "little steven" and back

in the '80s you were very active politically. you are writing about politics now. what do you think about this republican race? >> oh, my god. we don't have enough time. it's entertaining. you know? you want it to be entertaining because i don't get it. as i said in the huffington post, i think all politics is down to one issue and i really mean that. by the end of the '80s i concluded all the issues i was dealing with had to do with getting rid of private campaign finance. that's what it's all about. left or right. i am a staunch independent by the way, nonpartisan. i feel very strongly for both sides that the money in politics destroys all of our quality of life and everything else is a distraction. >> yeah. >> a distraction. i don't get it. i don't get the whole discussion, the social stuff, you know, it's confusing to me. i don't really, you know,

talking about kids out of wedlock last night, you know, and how it destroys the family and against contraception. you know, i don't connect those dots. how do you connect those dots? i don't know. >> i think it's very difficult watching a republican debate these days to be able to connect the dots. >> really. it doesn't quite make sense. >> so just curious, obviously we haven't talked about the sopranos. that was an incredible run as well. >> it is. >> do you feel like a cat with nine lives? seriously. i mean, it's crazy that more people now probably recognize you from the sopranos and what we all recognize you from over the past 20, 30 years. >> believe it or not there is a good amount of people stopping on the street because i'm a dejay on my radio show which is quite big. we just got added to 180 countries around the world. >> wow. >> so it is the biggest radio show in the world. a lot of people know me as that. as a dejay. >> that's like paul mccartney

being stopped and people saying they couldn't believe there was a band before wings. >> what does it ofeel like to gt up on stage and sing bobbie jean, a song written for you? >> i never asked whether it was about me or not. >> it's about you. >> i don't want tongue about it. >> it's about you. >> how does it feel to play that song live. >> i wouldn't be able to do it if i thought it was about me. i'm in denial about the whole thing. >> my god. >> i don't know that for a fact. i worked on about 9 of the 12 songs on "born in the usa" coproduced and then i left and got obsessed with politics foolishly and put out two solo albums before that record came out. they added those three songs. that was one of them. >> yeah. >> i don't know. >> it's so nice to meet you. >> great to meet you. i watch you all the time. >> thank you for coming in. >> you guys are terrific. >> we're huge fans. >> thank you so much. watch lillehammer on netflix now. steven van zandt thank you so much. great to meet you. come back. >> any time.

>> okay. >> how about every day? >> i'm in the village. >> all right. that's easy. >> the new jobless numbers are just out. we'll get those and business before the bell next on "morning joe." hello, how can i deliver world-class service

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to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. new weekly jobless numbers just came out. let's go live to cnbc headquarters for the latest. brian, what does the news look like this week? >> 351,000, actually upward revised. unchanged. still the lowest level since 2008. >> great. >> in terms of the overall health of the economy in terms of the jobs market it's really good. i want to point out it is a huge improvement from where we were a year ago or so but we still have 7.5 million people collecting jobless benefits. it's a much better situation but still a long way to go.

hewlett-packard reported earnings. meg whitman was a big focus of conversation on the show when running for office. she took over hewlett-packard and they saw a 44% drop in profits and she says now maybe two to five years to turn this baby around. they've had a lot of trouble. >> man. >> i want to speak to a larger thing. del reported earnings earlier in the week and they were disappointing. hewlett-packard's computer, basically the developed world is not buying personal computers anymore and it is a major problem for these companies. who do you know that buys a pc? >> well, yeah. >> nobody. >> jonathan? >> no. >> john? >> wow. >> and it's an apple if you do right? >> mika, do you have pcs in your house? >> i think i do. one? >> maybe one? you know, it -- >> that's a personal computer. >> yeah. >> it is surprising, brian, a great question. we haven't had anything but macs for a long time. >> mobile devices. >> desk toms. >> brian, thank you so much. we appreciate it.

and by the way, still i think some pretty good news on the weekly jobless numbers. at least not a double dip. >> thank you, brian. >> we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] want to spend less and retire with more? then don't get nickle and dimed by high cost investments and annoying account fees. at e-trade, our free easy-to-use online tools and experienced retirement specialists can help you build a personalized plan. and with our no annual fee iras and a wide range of low cost investments, you can execute the plan you want at a low cost. so meet with us, or go to etrade.com for a great retirement plan with low cost investments. ♪

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here's your business travel forecast on this thursday. snowstorm believe it or not. it's been really warm but we have a snowstorm heading through the central plains, a very narrow area of snow. it'll hit detroit and chicago late tonight into tomorrow morning. in those cities we could actually see a couple inches of snow. maybe even as much as 6 inches. other areas are very warm today. all in the southern half of the country.wo dn't use that single miles credit card. hey, aren't you... shhh. i'm researching a role. today's special... the capital one venture card. you earn double miles on every purchase. impressive. chalk is a lost medium. if you're not earning double miles... you're settling for half. was that really necessary? [ male announcer ] get the venture card at capitalone.com and earn double miles on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? cover for me. i have an audition.

my dad and grandfather spent their whole careers here. [ charlie ] we're the heartbeat of this place, the people on the line. we take pride in what we do. when that refrigerator ships out the door, it's us that work out here. [ michael ] we're on the forefront of revitalizing manufacturing. we're proving that it can be done here, and it can be done well. [ ilona ] i came to ge after the plant i was working at closed after 33 years. ge's giving me the chance to start back over. [ cindy ] there's construction workers everywhere. so what does that mean? it means work. it means work for more people.

[ brian ] there's a bright future here, and there's a chance to get on the ground floor of something big, something that will bring us back. not only this company, but this country. ♪ not only this company, but this country. some constipation medications can take control of you. break free. with miralax. it's clinically proven to relieve constipation and soften stool with no harsh side effects. just gentle predictable relief. miralax. [music playing] confidence. available in color. depend® for women is now peach. looks and fits like underwear. same great protection. depend®. good morning. great day. it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street legal. ♪ is it safe?

oh ya, it's a volkswagen. [ male announcer ] the security of a jetta, one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick. ♪ got you in a stranglehold, baby ♪ it's good. honey, i love you... oh my gosh, oh my gosh.. look at these big pieces of potato. ♪ what's that? big piece of potato. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. my favorite spinner song? >> yeah. >> none of your business. >> wow. >> i wanted to talk about the jersey budget. i make a joke about mitt romney and ron paul kissing and suddenly it is a gay marriage debate. what have you learned today? i'm sorry. >> actually i will say something we learned yesterday as we all learned very sadly, marie colvin one of the great correspon