good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. here with bob herbert, former "the new york times" columnist and we also have michelle goldberg from the daily beast and victoria san francisco and james poleis returning to the show. great to have you here. nelson mandela has been hospitalized. we are hearing it was a planned admission into the hospital for a recurring abdominal problem. and we are also hearing that there are evacuations in syria today. the red cross and red crescent on evacuating people from the city of homs which has been shelled. lawmakers are looking to pass a bill in virginia to require women seeking an abortion to undergr -- undergo a

transvaginal you will extultras. it became very quickly a national joke from the daily show to "saturday night live." >> the virginia house of representatives this week passed a bill that required women to have a transvaginal ultrasound before having an abortion. really? now don't get me wrong. i love transvaginal. it's my favorite airline. i got so many miles on transvaginal that i always get upgraded to lady business! >> really? oh! >> the bill was ultimately pulled. along with ridicule came political pushback. on monday women locked arms outside the virginia state capital. then gost governor mcdonald

pulling back his support with a statement that read the following. no person should be directed to undergo an invasive procedure by the state without their consent as a precondition to another medical procedure. in response the republican state lawmakers in the house passed the bill but, i repeat, the requirement the women go under an transvajtransvaginal ultraso. michelle, you were just back from the state of texas. >> yes. >> which is one of seven states, if i'm not mistaken, that have mandatory ultrasound laws in effect? >> in t it, i think it's important to note is a transvaginal ultrasound. in texas, this has been going on. it went to the courts and

litigated so only in effect for the past couple of weeks. you need to have an unnecessary transvaginal ultrasound. you need to listen to the doctor describe fetal development. you need to listen to the heartbeat, if it's audible. so what is fascinating to me is that these kind of encroachments have been passing somewhat unremarked for, you know, years now. what has changed, i think, is this huge backlash against all of these encroachments that started with the komen foundation and picked up steam with the warren contraception and all-male panel discussing the need for insurance -- the fact we don't need insurance coverage for contraception and foster freeze saying you need to squeeze an aspirin between your knees. this has set off i think an uproar of women not paying attention to the obscure laws and realize something they value

is under attack. >> there is a tracking of state restrictions on abortion and sort of impediments in the past. it's a remarkable graph. what we have seen in the last two years is a huge amount of state efforts to create these kinds of burdens, requirements, obstacles to women being able to exercise reproductive choice. it's an interesting thing to see the way this has taken off in the last three weeks, by, i think, largely, an accidental confluence of things that happened on top of echl othach and now it's in the spotlight. the issue of abortion is one issue and issue of birth control and whether it's mandated which is another. then just basically the issue of women feeling like somehow their own sexual freedom and sexual choice and control over their bodies is being offensively attacked. >> you have rick santorum coming

out against prenatal care. you know? so i think one of the strategies that you had had in the past in the anti-abortion movement was that both effective and frustrating for pro choice people they focused on the managers margins. >> the most extreme cases and go after them. >> now focusing on things that affect almost every single woman in america. >> in fact, it's a fascinating inversion. politically. what the sort of anti-abortion movement did effectively, right, in late-term abortion take the edge cases where our moral in intuitions are most murky and make pro choice people defend the weakest crown. now a total inversion. >> talking about partial birth abortion or so-called partial birth abortion to birth control and prenatal care. >> we can't talk about the stuff without talking about rick santorum. how is it we are here right now? the occupy movement has kind of died down for the winter season.

the tea party is confused trying to sort through these presidential candidates none of which make sense from a tea party perspective, i think. when you have that environment, oh, right, this culture war stuff. you add on top of that the unanswered questions how we move forward with health care. as ron paul said in the last debate there is always an excuse and especially true when it comes to public health. anything can be construed as a matter of public health and i think we're seeing it play out in those terms. >> you put were finger on something interesting about the origin of this round of this fight which had to do with the obama administration issuing a regulatory rule in compliance with the fair act employers which weren't churches but hospitals and schools had to cover at no cost birth control in the insurance they offer their employees. the battle over that. i think republicans and conservatives thought it was a great fight to pick because it would unite these two

constituencies. they don't like the fact that the obama care is bringing the tyranny of the state down and telling employers what they have to do and it started out that way. i think it's gone a long way. we will talk more about that and a piece that james wrote that got a lot of attention on the internet after this break. rang- eden prairie, minnesota. in here, the landscaping business grows with snow. to keep big winter jobs on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time. you can't live under a dome in minnesota, that's why there's guys like me. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

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all right. james pollis here. you wrote a piece for the detail column that inspired a tremendous amount of backlash online and i was brought up short about it, particularly by the headline. it was called ask the question what are women for? which seems, i think, an odd question to ask about human beings. who are presumably for whatever

their own ends are for. with inspired a lot of backlash and came at a moment where we are talking about where the flag is being planted on this debate. people were tweeting at me and e-mailing me this piece an annual example of look how far the right has marched in what the argument is. used to be about partial abortion and regular abortion and then about birth control and now very -- >> basic humanity. >> right but the essential humanity of women so i want to give you a chance to defend yourself, james. >> the reason the column has that title is the question i posed in the article up front first paragraph is why is it that these issues are back? what is the sort of the big overarching view at stake here and why are we having the conversation now? the case i make it's because there is a deep argument in this country about sort of what the relationship is between our biological bodies as men and women and how that bioology what

our different roles are. that is the question and the argument. the fact there was this powerful reaction goes to show that it is this -- >> let me make one point. it's interesting you said the relationship biological functions. >> there isn't as much agreement. >> there isn't this master gender divide who is wielding power in the country. michelle, please respond. >> what i want to say that is actually not the question you asked is how does our biology relate to our social function. when you say what are women for, you're necessarily kind of implying in relation to who. substitute any other group for women in that sentence and it would be unthinkable. >> i wrote a column a few weeks ago and doesn't get much

controversy. that's a joke, america. >> when we have have a debate about affirmative action we don't start what are minorities for. we had thought there was a basic assumption in this country that human beings have kind of a priority. >> inalienable rights? >> right. and that their rights are not determined by their social function in relation manner to a dominant group. that is what is so shocking about your piece, i thought, is that we know in recent years, is there a sort of consensus, to some extent, at least a surface consensus, about the basics of feminism. conservatives have tended to treat feminism the way they treat civil rights which is kind of once worthy movement that has now attained all of its goals and is now superfluous. they say it's important we gave the women the right to vote and women the rights that come after that but now reached where we don't need further help. >> i wanted to read into that which is essentially the left is

very divided in terms of its view of feminism. you have the classic feminism and then the post modern feminism. and then i think the thing you did not address is the divides within the republican party of feminism within republican women and i think this has come to the fo forewith the rise of splarah pan and rise of these republican women. you say you have these views but the right have the divides as deeper. -- verse sarah palin. you tried to frame it in my perspective as a left issue, but it's very much a right/left a issue and, if anything, more to the right. >> i think that is insightful. i thought it was obvious the divides are on the right maybe the story needs to be told is maybe on the left. >> you framed it as being a left issue and that we're all -- we can't get our house in order. >> can i attempt something? can i ask you to charitiably

rescue a part of the piece i thought was an important point on the liberal side you see why are we talking about this? isn't this a settled matter? i think one of the reminders that this last few weeks of this very contentious debate owner birth control, preproductive rights has reminded us we have have undergone a tremendous revolution in the social role and equality of women having to do with both their place in the workplace and reproductive freedom and their control over their own sexuality in the last 30 years, and those battles are never settled in the same way the civil rights battle is never settled. i think a reminder on why are we talking about birth control in 2012? because it's a big deal and it was rev nuolutionrevolutionary,? >> with women as with african-americans, because of the power structure in this country, they are seen as "the other." the folks in power, whether in

media, in government, in business, the corporations or whatever, can make these determinations about women seeing them as women. the other, or make determinations about blacks, you know, discrimination is over. we have a black president. the hardest thing in the world and maybe we will never get there, is see people as people. we cannot seem to do it. >> except -- who -- >> except for white guys. you can see a white guy and no one takes notice. no one says he is white first or a guy first. >> or what are white men for? >> yeah, you won't hear what are white men for. >> james? >> yeah, i think even if we awe agree and woke up tomorrow and everyone more or less agreed that it's a great step forward for civilization for us to say we will remain diagnostic on this question and people can decide for themselves what they think their purpose is as individuals even if we agreed that is true and good for

civilization as a step forward. it's going to involve a lot of political fighting and a lot of really gears grinding when there are other issues that need to be attended to right now. we are stuck in this culture situation regardless of what the merits are unless we find a way to get through to the other side. >> this is music to my ears. my theme the last few weeks is embrace the culture war. it is a fight over progress in my mind. yes, you have to fight it. >> also a fight about kind of really fundamental questions of what we value in society. >> values and dignity and self-determination. arizona's public presidential primary is on tuesday. we will talk about some of the things that make that state so fascinatingly strange. is it what arizona's future will look like? megan mccain will join us after this. is to keep it whole for better nutrition. and that's what they do with great grains cereal. see the seam on the wheat grain?

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arizona and michigan are holding their republican primaries this tuesday which gives us a chance to take a deep dive into both places. take a look at michigan and, more specifically, the amazing city of detroit in a bit. we start with arizona. a winner take all state where mitt romney has opened up a 16-point lead according to wednesday' nbc's marist poll romney is leading santorum and gingrich and poll polling third and fourth. aside from arizona's notorious immigration bill that directs police to check for people's papers at traffic stops, state bills usually don't make national headlines but to give some sense how unusual the state's politics are we thought we should other states bills that have passed the arizona state senate. banning the funding of ethnic studies programs in public schools. intentionally or knowingly creating a human animal hybrid.

suspending or fire college professors who curse and allowing college students to carry guns on campus. it was vetoed once by the governor january jan brewer. i want to bring in megan mccain. an arizona native. and tom sheller from the university of maryland, baltimore county and wrote a great book called "whistling past dixie." which is about the partisan divisions in this country. a chapter, i believe, on arizona. >> yeah. >> spent some time on that. megan, let me start with you. i find arizona's politics extremely fascinating for a few reasons. it seems in some ways a vision of what america will look like in 30 years in this respect. you have two populations migrating into the state. old white people and young brown people. and they are both getting there, and the politics seems like a death battle in some ways between those two groups for power and you see this kind of rear guard action by the people

who are very skevenive, tend to be older and whiter, against what they see as this just terrifying encroachment into their state and that produces like 1070. is that an accurate way of understanding the access of the state's politics? >> i think definitely. i was just in arizona last weekend. arizona now has hispanic population of 30% which continues to grow. i was interviewing hispanic asu students. a clash going on whether older white republican politicians, like it or not, weird saying that. >> do you know anybody who fits that category? >> like my father, an awkward conversation. there is going to be than internal culture clash going on right now and this fear of the ever-changing face. i think of america that specifically of what it means to be in arizona. >> can give a time line? >> yes, please. >> building on this demographic change. there are larger forces at work and i want to go back to mid-90s. california and texas had operation hold the line and

operation gait keeper which had federal money coming to secure the border. what happens to poor arizona? they are the ugly step child. all of the immigration started coming through arizona and where the pressure started to build in arizona against the anti-immigration movement. fast forward. 2000. russell pierce gets elected. 1998 arizona passed the clean election bill and that means candidates can get funding to match and the other funding. what that translated into is candidates of the more ideological extremes were able to get elected. also known as russell pierce. your chamber of commerce. that is why arizona get more of the russell pierce's. >> i'm not an arizonan. >> it starts in 1705. >> is it starts a hundred years ago. this is a centennial year for arizona. >> yes.

>> when i was out west the thing i kept hearing from politicians and experts in colorado and new mexico you have to remember these states weren't in the union at the start of the 20th century. i have to remind my college students. giant holes in places like oklahoma and arizona in the country when you looked at the u.s. map. we didn't have the full continental united states. it's relevant if you're on the east coast and in d.c., baltimore, philadelphia corridor, there is an old party tradition. these states were colonies before they were states. if you're arizona you've only been a state for hundred years and new york a union in the state for more than twice your. party development is slow. i talked to david berman, you have to remember it's a candidate centered politics because they don't have a deep party root there because a younger state and even younger party history. have you these new people coming from other parts of the country -- >> what is interesting to me i went to college here in new york city when i was 18. when i said i was from arizona and new york city i never got a reaction. i told cab drivers i'm from arizona now and their reaction is completely different and they

ask me specifically 170 and it is something that has followed me as an arizonan. >> you have the -- on top of that. >> well, sure. >> and everything with jan brewer recently streaming her finger at the president. >> the iconic image of her on the tarmac. >> no offense to the 100-year arizona history. >> what tom is just saying and vickie laying the groundwork there. the fact your father has been a very successful arizona politician for a long time was a successful arizona politician as a self-described and self-identified moderate. janet napolitano was extremely popular governor of the state you have the clean -- >> it was rescinded by the supreme court. i'm feeling optimistic about my state. really am. for would reasons. first of all, it it comes with good and bad but the clean

elections got rescinded so that means you'll have more moderate republicans populate the state legislature. >> that is a strange thing to say. >> look. >> thank god, we have gotten the money out of the grassroots because we can allow the chamber of commerce to march in with their big money and elect candidates we find more favorable. >> it sounds crazy to me too. when you look at the state and the pattern of the state politics in arizona and how it has skewed beyond far right, you need a moderating force here. maybe in ten years i'll change my mind but, right now, the state legislature -- >> i go back to arizona once every two months and i consider myself an arizonan and getting more conservative and radical and i think it's a backlash to the ever-changing face of american politics. >> you think the rhetoric -- this is an interesting question. the degree to which structural money thing is driving us or the degree to which this point it's deeper anxiety about the face of immigration? >> i think i'm saying an

arizonan and from arizona, anyplace other than in arizona now is almost saying something that is loaded. i have friends joke about should i say this? >> can we talk about the laws too? like fire the teachers if they curse. so the government has to be in the business of parse what is a naughty enough word to get you fired. >> i definitely would get fired, by the way. i drop f-bombs daily. >> there is a piece complaining about symbolic legislation. this is the problem you see in arizona but you've seen a lot of other places too. like where if you can hang public health around something then you can mobilize people and get something past. i think in a situation increasingly at the state and federal level, laws are just being generated and promulgated in order to satisfy constituencies that can give you a reason to run for re-election and mobilize a little base. >> you think these are sort of tokens? >> the ethnic studies, do you

see that as symbolic? you don't see that as a more substantive bill? >> rather than say the content of the bill is symbol lick, why is this a bill here and why are we seeing legislation continue to be -- when we can say, we don't need to pass a bunch more law because it's a new legislative session, right? the reason why the legislate tors are cra-- legislators are crafting certain bills. >> a weird example right now. arizona continues to be the state the rest of the united states looks for weird bills as you're saying. whether or not it's symbolic or not, it's like we want to make an example that america is changing and arizona is going to be -- >> there is a -- >> there also seems to be a pride and about that. 1070 is a rallying cry. >> there were five bills in 2011 that -- children of undocumented parents in schools had to be documented and reported to the

authorities. you couldn't sign up for any services, like you couldn't pay your light bill if you were undocumented. a half dozen of these bills. however, five republican senators crossed over and voted against it. so i see moderation. >> the question is there a space for any kind of recalibration -- among republicans and we will try to answer that question when we come back. nature valley trail mix bars are made with real ingredients you can see. like whole roasted nuts, chewy granola, and real fruit. nature valley trail mix bars. 100% natural. 100% delicious. [ male announcer ] how could a luminous protein in jellyfish, impact life expectancy in the u.s., real estate in hong kong, and the optics industry in germany? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus

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we'll take all the strawberries, dave. you got it, kid. we have a winner. we're definitely gonna need another one. small businesses that want to grow use 4g lte technology from verizon. i wonder how she does it. that's why she's the boss. because the small business with the best technology rules. contact the verizon center for customers with disabilities at 1-800-974-6006. ♪ by the time i get to arizona ♪ >> oh, yes. a little public enemy for you on this beautiful saturday morning. talking about the state of arizona and politics revoting in the republican primary on tuesday. tom, you wanted to sort of respond. we are talking about what is the kind of ideological migration of the state driven by demographic factors and backlash and the clean money bill passed that produced a different kind of funding structure at the grassroots and i think national politics all of these creating this strange outgrowth of

ideolodge ideolodge ideolodgeal zelotry. >> i think you guys will probably disagree on this. i think when issues are complex and like high information issues and you're talking about social services and things like that and immigrant population and more established white populations whether they just got to arizona or grown up their whole lives in arizona and fars more easier to go after culture issues where people have a easy point of purchase. it's on our atms than trying to win an argument about redistribution and it's more complex. it seems like more satisfying political moral victories. >> isn't that applicable in many states? james is saying about the symbolism. the ethnic studies thing i think you're right. not like state senators really care what is being taught. that's a really easy political win. the next thing you know it passed and taking books out of

schools. >> headline grabber for aspiring young politicians trying to make a name for themselves. >> it is easy to do but take you back to the late 1990s. i grew up on the border. there was a flood of immigration coming through. and so arizonans they got tired of it. so it's easy to latch on to these cultural issues but it was very, very tangible in the state. they ultimately stepped it up but it was a real issue. >> but still a serious problem with the border and arizona always gets blamed. what is happening now the caveat as the 170, they create a lot of momentum in the news when a rancher was shot. i have a friend who lives on a cattle ranch in tucson. i struggle with i want everything in arizona. the mexican heritage coming over is very important but so is cattle ranching. if you want to see what the cultural divide you're talking about in america, arizona is the place to go. >> this is something whenever i interview people from arizona in the course of reporting they will make this point which is

you don't understand. there is an actual issue in terms of the actual amount of people coming over the border and it's not completely generated. partly because of the physical -- the actual border patrols that were stepped up in other places and arizona became -- >> men go on patrol themselves because they feel the need to take it in their own hands. >> they take it a step too far. i am from the home of minutemen and fine when you want control but crosses the line when you have accounts of these people actually attacking undocumented persons. when they are sitting there with a gun, call the border patrol. >> border patrol is ineffective. i won't defend the minutemen because i think they are radical. there is a problem. number one kidnapping place for kidnapping in the united states is arizona. >> i read this smart piece in the daily beast about the way in which jan brewer when she describes arizona which for years was described as a paradise and that is why it was citrus and sun and it was a tourist attraction.

jan brewer, it's like a southwestern version of robocop, right? >> i take pride in that as well. i'm from the wild west, baby, i love it! and there definitely is this independent populist. i don't know. >> fertile ground for saying when the federal government can't seem to either enforce the immigration laws on the books or reform the immigration law to turn it into something it can enforce and does enforce. arizona is the kind of place where people will say we will just -- >> arizona has become the vanguard for national republican politics and your father is a perfect example of this. this is someone who had his name on the comprehensive immigration reform bill with ted kennedy and it was mccain/kennedy. >> for the record the only thing that brought protesters outside our house in phoenix. the only thing in my entire house that had -- >> sponsorship of that bill. >> no, obviously. immigration does. i had never seen it in my entire life. >> people opposed to it?

>> yeah. >> what ended up happening he abandoned and said he wouldn't support it and now we see the ostensible front-runner in the republican field cropped back up to the top mitt romney has been taken a hard line and jan breweresque line. chrrischris coback is advising d mitt romney praising jan brewer in the debate this week. we are seeing the arizona politics not being the vanguard. >> actually, the arizona -- >> tom's point where, you know, if you're mitt romney and you want to run the campaign that he is running but you want to be able to plant one flag and say i'm conservative. what do you reach for? >> it talks about business management and he is a good person for jobs. with most editorials, there is a

but clause there and only one but clause saying we disagree with romney is and trying to outstake the whole field to immigration. to see that said otherwise really glowing endorsement i think reflects the fact of what you're hearing and people are worried about the republicans if it's mitt romney going this far, in other words, if this guy is the liberal modern alternative and where he is going on it. >> the repercussions in the general election will be lethal if he does that. just the hispanic vote and we lost it in the last election cycle and i guess republicans don't care at all. >> john mccain, every reason to believe he would do quite well among latino voters. >> he did well in 2010. still, he got around 40% of the vote? >> but the rhetoric of rush limbaugh, the rhetoric of the liberal parties were hung around the neck of mccain mrch who walked around immigration reform and he did very poorly.

>> the demographic in arizona is 30% hispanic now. about half of that maybe less than half is undocumented or under the age of 18. remember, latinos are a veryall start to see the tnds. i don't see in 2012. >> meghan mccain, thank you for coming by. [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota. in here, the landscaping business grows with snow. to keep big winter jobs on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time. you can't live under a dome in minnesota, that's why there's guys like me. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ without the stuff that we make here, you wouldn't be able to walk in your house and flip on your lights.

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. bob herbert is back bus at the table now. some of the big names on sunday talkers including mitt romney and rick santorum and republican governor of arizona who we were just discussing jan brewer and john hoffman of shell oil will be out there and a list of the others at whom. what would you ask tomorrow? >> i would ask john mccain and lindsey graham. we have been in afghanistan for more than ten years. we've had the tragedy of iraq.

mccain and graham seem to think it's okay to intervene wherever middle east wherever is there a hot spot. my question is who should continue fighting these wars if we are going to fight wars perpetually? is it all right with him to have a small sliver of the population, shoulder this tragic burden or should we expand the sacrifice so that we, one, pay taxes to pay for these wars and, two, maybe expand the population of who actually has to go and fight. >> great question. it is really remarkable. di some research on this for the book i was working on and just the divide between the 1% that has to serve and the 99% and the amounts of distance between them is really, i think, one of the sort of crises of representation the nation faces. >> absolutely agree. >> that distance i think facilitates the continuation and the perpetuity of the wars because no one has -- certainly not people -- tom sheller, what would you ask of whom?

>> i take home field advantage and martin o'malley who is tthe governor of the state i teach. >> that would be maryland. >> right. >> rick santorum changed the dynamic of the republican field because he introduced a catholic driven social moral values and talking point and agenda that we thought had faded away from american politics after obama and the recession. what are catholic democrats going to respond? martin o'malley you beat bob by twice the margin in 2010 and then beat him four years earlier in a great democratic cycle and the best day of any democrat in 2010 and competing with another catholic governor in new york. where is the democratic party catholic response to rick santorum? this is a question and a nudge. >> that's a great question as someone who is raised in a democratic catholic household and close to my heart. >> me too. >> vickie? >> i ask governor chris christie, what now? we have been see the social

issue agenda pushing moderates away. what is the strategy? if you can't go after the economy and you're seeing the social issues are backfiring what is your strategy? >> chris christie vetoed a bill passed by the statehouse and senate i think in new jersey and got to his desk for same-sex marria marriage. he vetoed it and went on "morning joe" to try to defend it and i thought jonathan capehart did a great job on that issue. >> jeb bush is saying outloud that he is concerned that the republican candidates are playing people's fears too much. there's word that people are starting to pound on mitchell daniels' door saying reconsider. the question for mitch is does mitt romney have what it takes to win the nomination?

>> mitchell daniels under george w. bush and elected governor of indiana in which he said the quote two years ago that we had to call the social issues a truce which has not been heated, i think it's fair to pay. detroit once the biggest boom down in america and now decline and possible rebirth. what the future of detroit will be and what it says about us. after this. what do you get when you combine the home depot with this weekend? the cure for cabin fever. because with get-it-done savings on everything we need... we can turn this weekend into a fresh floor... or an updated bathroom... or a brand-new look. so let's hit those orange aisles, and make today the day, we make a big difference, no matter how big our budget. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot maximize your budget with great buys, like mosaic tile, just $4.98 per square foot.

. . right on the nose with our music cues today. we turn to detroit. largest city in the other state voting on tuesday, michigan mitt romney gave a hyped economic speech at ford field yesterday. hoping for some grand sivenlism but managing symbolism he delivered a speech against an entirely empty backdrop, the end of the speech got a lot of attention when mr. romney talked

about the cars, plural, that he owns. >> this feels good being back in michigan. you know? the trees are the right height. the streets are just right. i like the fact that most of the cars i see are detroit made automobiles. i drive a mustang and a chevy pickup truck and ann drives a couple of cadillacs, actually. and i used to have a dodge truck. so i used to have all three covered. >> just a cup of caddies. a poll taken before he told his wife drives a couple of cadillacs has romney leading santorum by two points. 13% for ron paul and 8% for newt gingrich. santorum had taken a lead in michigan so romney has stormed back. since the economic crisis, detroit, the setting for that speech, has occupied a place in our mind about what decline looks like. there is a tendency to forget that detroit was still a major

american city where hundreds of thousands of people live. but we're starting to remember we see detroit now, i think, as a symbol of our hope and future possibly. we were thinking about this as a staff this week trying to think about talking about detroit. not the recent clint eastwood ad but last year, the eminem ad. they have been used to create a story of an eminent detroit comeback that weaves together pretty seamlessly. >> what does this city know about luxury? huh? what does a town that has been to hell and back know about the finer things in life? well, i'll tell you. more than most. you see -- >> the people of detroit know a little something about this. they almost lost everything. but we all pulled together. now motor city is fighting

again. >> that's who we are. that's our story. now it's probably not the one you've been reading in the papers, who are being unwritten by folks who never have been here and don't know what we are capable of. >> some ads showing the comeback of detroit. you know, i spent some time in detroit doing some reporting last -- two years ago, i guess. and i was struck by what a powerful place it is in all sorts of reasons. one of the reasons, obviously, is what has become a cliche about detroit which is the fact that, obviously, a lot of people have left and there's a lot of abandoned structures and you with walk and walk for city blocks that have turned into pasture essentially and it is a strange destabilizing landscape to encounter as an american. it feels like something from another place. it feels like something from another time, some kind of different vision of the future. also the fact that detroit is a real place and was a real boom town. it has very real economic

challenges ahead of us. and also i think because of the way the financial crisis happened and the acuteness of the auto, the possible death of the auto industry, there is something broadly rwhat will america look like once the jobs have gone to china and taps into this. bob, i know you spent some time in detroit during your reporting. >> yes. >> how do you think we sort of think about detroit? what do we get wrong and right about detroit? >> you know, we get a lot right about detroit. detroit is in as bad a shape as most people tend to think, although, most likely, it's worse than people realize. in the evening, you don't have rush hour in detroit. you don't have all kinds of cars on the road at 5:00 or 6:00. there is these vast areas that are just barren landscapes and empty buildings and crumbling structures and that sort of thing. but, you know, i try not to be cynical about things that have

to do with urban areas and the poor and especially the young people in this country, but i'm pretty cynical about talk of a revival in detroit. i've been hearing it since 1967 when they had the riots which was the same year they had other riots. i don't think detroit is coming back any time soon, because i don't think people are willing to put in either the sustained effort or the tremendous resources that would be needed to bring detroit back. >> yeah, the big story in terms of the demographic story of detroit we have population figures here that give you a sense of what happened to the city. i mean, it was a city of almost 10 million people in 1950 and now 700,000. that is 1.3 million people leaving in half a century. there were the riots and then there was tremendous white plight. the city is 80% african-american. hundreds of thousands of white people left and now sort of form a ring around in the suburbs and it's entirely segregated.

>> i grew up in albany new york. the i-90 corridor from lowell to detroit. the total devastation of the post-industrial america is very real to somebody like me who grew up with kids who grew up in syracuse and albany and buffalo, all cities. albany less so because the paper city. you go to rochester, kodak, people take pictures with their phone, right? is that industry doesn't exist either. detroit i think is the crowning center and large and most prominent bought of the automobile connection but a proxy for a whole i-90 corridor that looks like that. i spent a lot of time in ohio and east cleveland it's scary and a bit sad like it's just like james q. wilson, broken windows. weeds growing up through the cracks in these giant factory buildings that are destroyed. >> the part of sledge hammer as industries change and globalization has taken over. we will talk to two residents and one a lifelong resident and one a newcomer to the city when

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good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes here with bob herbert a former "the new york times" columnist and thomas shaller and victoria soto and james poulos. and joining me is joanne watson, former executive director of the detroit naacp and resi jakely of the knight foundation. so wonderful to have you both join us this morning. thank you so much. >> good morning, chris. thank you for having us. >> good morning. >> councilwoman, i'd like to start with you. i feel around the financial crisis, around the auto bailout, there was a whole bevy of

articles that came out about detroit, about what detroit means, about photo essays of the abandoned buildings. i wonder as someone who has been in detroit, served on the city council, you know, deep roots in the city, what do you think we get wrong about detroit? what are the sort of misconceptions about your hometown? >> first of all, good morning, chris. let me say that detroit is already coming back. there's no wreck for detroit. there is rye survievival in det. gm is enjoying record profits and chrysler first profit in years and 1.4 million jobs have been saved! detroit is the home of the auto industry along with being the home of motown and a number of other great things and greatest sports teams in america. this city is already reviving. >> when you say reviving, look. obviously, the city has lost a

tremendous amount of population and if i'm not mistaken, two trends. the long-term trend of population leaving the city and increasing unemployment. then there is the short-term trend of the financial crisis and the havoc of that wreak. even if detroit is emerging from the crisis, unemployment in the city remains if i'm not mistaken 30% and a budgetary consideration on what the tax base looks like. what is the plan going forward the mayor has talked about changing, reducing the footprint of the city to make it more governable? i'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. >> certainly, the economy in detroit is no longer just based on the auto industry like the state has been based on that one industry. no more. the tourism industry, the sense of greening the economy is a part of detroit's revival. rapid transit is finally coming to detroit. we are blessed with a great

revival and, quite frankly, the city of detroit is owed some money right now by our republican governor and if they would pay the bill, the city of detroit would have a balanced budget. >> what is the republican governor owe the city of detroit? >> $220 million in unpaid revenue sharing on the one hand and $350 million in taxes that need to be collected from nonresidents the state will not allow us to collect. there is money due the city and in my perspective the city has no deficit because there is money in that accounts receivable column owed to the city by the state. >> risi, you're not from detroit and you moved there repeatedly. can you tell me how you came to detroit and why you're there? >> well, thanks, chris. well, my wife gets the credit. she's from detroit. but honestly i came here. i'm one of many people that have come here to do well and to do good, to be true to me and do it all in community. detroit is a center of civic innovation. there's a whole cohort of

entrepreneurs and creators move into the city. city reported a 60% increase in the population of young adults living downtown in the last ten years. we at knight foundation have run studies with gallup around the country and seeing striking attachment and commitment to the public square amongst young people in detroit. i see detroit actually as a center of civic innovation for the country to look to and we have got an exciting movement under way here and i'm delighted to be a part of it. >> bob? >> miss watson, bob herbert from demose. one of the big problems in detroit is the concentrated poverty. it's just so many poor people, so that there is a problem for lack of demand which makes it very difficult for businesses to get started locally. so my question is how do you attract people to come into detroit, if you don't have jobs that attract them and if you

don't have a sort of a base of income that would support a business that they might try to establish there? >> i appreciate that question, bob. there is a gold mine that already exists not only for detroit, but for cities across this nation. it's called hud dollars, housing and urban development. did you know, bob herbert, that there is a 20% set aside when cities like detroit receive hud dollars in the 200 million was received in 2011, 10% of that should be set aside just to help you hire people and provide businesses, contracts with those hud dollars. so that section 3 level of the hud regulations has been on the books for 40 years, unenforced. gegs w guess who is fighting for business contracts for our people? >> sounds like a future mayor here. >> we're doing things dimple

here, bob. last year, for instance a whole bunch of detroiters launched heva detroit which is delivering capital to underconserve small businesses across the city. it's america's first big micro lending initiative. where people from detroit can make loans to small businesses in their own community over the internet. former president clinton launched this at clinton global initiative last year. we are doing things differently here and the way we are doing things is banding together using the internet and more to work across the community to provide all kinds of capital to those with ideas. there are plenty of folks here with eyes and dreaming and we are doing things differently. i think other cities across the country are looking at detroit now for solutions. >> we have resources here. the great lakes natural resource for alternative energy. we have the motown, the music industry. there is great natural resources and we are taking advantage to rebuild the city. >> the mike o'financing organization was started has

gone worldwide and they have pilot projects here. councilwoman watson and risi, if you will stay with us. james family is from detroit so he has rooting there and he wants to talk about his family's experience there after the break. t's next ? chocolate lemonade ? susie's lemonade... the movie. or... we make it pink ! with these 4g lte tablets, you can do business at lightning-fast speeds. we'll take all the strawberries, dave. you got it, kid. we have a winner. we're definitely gonna need another one. small businesses that want to grow use 4g lte technology from verizon. i wonder how she does it. that's why she's the boss. because the small business with the best technology rules. contact the verizon center for customers with disabilities at 1-800-974-6006. i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't un-stuff your nose. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your stuffy nose. [ deep breath ] thank you! that's the cold truth!

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look at the caterpillar. you never imagine it's a butterfly and never imagine it will be so beautiful. it's crawling on the ground and in a minute it will be flying. the whole process would me was excellent for detroit. if you want to see the community transform, come on, y'all, let's get to work. >> a clip from lemonade detroit which i suggest you check out and sort of all about folks in detroit imagining a future for detroit, imagining what a

rebirth of detroit would look like. we have two detroiters with us on the line from that great city on satellite here. james, you told me during the break, i didn't even know this! your family is from detroit? >> it's true. we are one of those grains of sand in that bar graph you showed. we left in 1984 for economic reasons, not reasons of race. but, you know, i have to say i like the civic innovation we are talking about and i don't think that looking at things like hud dollars or more federal dollars is a gold mine is going to be the right way for detroit. but the question i have we see the ads and slickly produced and they can lure you in with this idea that the renaissance is real, courtesy of our tax dollars. but there is honestly something creepy to me about sort of being sucked in by the nicely packaged media presentation. chrysler has been bailed out before. it's not just the economic crisis. a systemic problem in detroit and when you look at the way governance has been so big and so bad in detroit for so long,

we can't set that to the side. this is a fundamental part of what has gone wrong in detroit and in other cities that are running into -- >> councilwoman, the conservative line on detroit i think is it is exactly a vision of what big government run amuck and liberal misgovernance looks like and i'd like to hear your response to that. >> the american dream has always been centered on the right of every family to have a quality of life and that is absolutely one that includes detroit. when you look at the fact that 1.4 million american jobs have been saved by the comeback of the auto industry that is an american success story and one that cannot be marginalized into some kind of big government. that is not fair. it's not correct. >> guys, let me add that, you know, the civic innovation, i'm talking about isn't limited to the grassroots. there is innovation occurring in govenance. we at knight foundation have invested in code for america which is a new natural

initiative to mobilize the country's best engineers to work in cities with local governments and develop technologies that make it easy for citizens to connect with government and vice versa. and detroit is one of the first cities they are in. not because detroit needs serving but because there is already momentum in government here and they are here right now and in the next coming months, you'll see, again, innovation coming from the city of cross sector. you have to look where the momentum is going. i'm from new york. i've lived in san francisco, lived around the world. there is no place like this from a momentum standpoint. >> so there is the institutional engine of growth. the governmental. i wanted to highlight also just the sheer demographic growth of it. in detroit and in michigan in general, the latino population has grown around 60% over the last decade. the most vibrant areas in detroit are the communities mainly mexican americans. i think this is where we are going to see the job growth, job

creation. for example in the u.s. whole, latino small businesses account for half of the new small businesses. i think the silent motor of growth we are seeing in detroit in the more undocumented area, regrettably, but also in the documented area, there is the immigration, formal immigration possess policy that brings in folks who will invest money and they get a visa. i think immigration is the tee to vitalize detroit. >> i think take the kind of risks that make entrepreneurship possible. >> we have a wonderful, vibrant latino community in southwest detroit. hi a meeting with them the other night as we talked about culture resources that are needed in southwest detroit to support the schools there. and to make sure that young people have access to higher education. so that is a wonderful, rich part of the fabric of greater detroit. >> what is happening here, guys, is moving. i mean, everybody here has got an idea and is executing against

that idea from high-end manufacturing. there is a group called auto harvest that is connecting high tech engineers from the big three companies with one another to work on new ideas, and dan gilbert is our most prominent venture capitalist investing in web 2 companies downtown. he sees the mission not a return on his investment but building community downtown and magic johnson is a partner in that. there is a lot going on here when you dig. >> risi, can i ask you a question? two things. i think there is a story about the kind of, you know, young people moving to detroit and starting up businesses, motor city denim gets some attention and slow's barbecue is another establishment. every averticle written follows these touchstones. when i was in detroit talking to activists one of the things they raised was a weird situation in which they say a little bit of a crisis of democracy in detroit.

tax base shrunk and harder to get things done. big private corporations the knight foundation which is a large grant maker you work for are from the top down figuring out what the future of detroit will look like. i heard that complaint from a number of people. i want to hear your response to it. how much is this become a kind of laboratory for ngos and other folks and how much of it is there still a kind of process of self-governance is determining what the future of the city will be? >> yeah. it's a great question, chris. we at the knight foundation, we're responding to local momentum. i mean, everything i've talked about isn't so much a theory of change or presupposing the future. detroit has had a lot of this is what the future has got to look like, moon shots and taking bets. what we're doing is responding to people and where people are taking the city. a lot of the innovation i've talked about started without our intervention. our role is amplify. i suspect six months from now

you will see that move from citizen leadership and economic development to good governance. a website makes it easy for detroiters to make it easy to connect and find out where to vote scomt rest. i think over time you will see innovation here cross sector and cross issues and good governance too and we are seeing it and i've given you some examples. we at knight foundation see our role as engaging people where their interests already are and it's a whole narrative that is really going to set the city in motion, not one thing. >> citizens are absolutely engaged in a democratic way in the city of detroit. not only have the citizens driven something called an urban marshal plan that seeks to have a blueprint for repopulating detroit and rapid transit in detroit, having a brand-new economy in detroit. this marshal plan has been developed with citizens at michigan state university but, in addition to that, grassroots

citizens right now are turning in 225,000 signatures on this wednesday to repeal public act 4 to turn back the emergency management law. >> on this notion of ride sizing. detroit has a more dense population than denver, ought 't austin and portland and many other cities. instead of paying attention to the now where the momentum is now and unleashing people's p s potential. i think a lot of folks are doing that in detroit so we hope everyone can visit. >> joanne watson and rishi doing an amazing job of getting me to want to move to detroit! thank you so much for talking about your town. we really appreciate it. >> thank you so much. >> thanks, chris, for your interest. the museum of modern art in

new york is foreclosed and rehousing the american dream. i'll talk about that coming up. [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota. in here, the landscaping business grows with snow. to keep big winter jobs on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time. you can't live under a dome in minnesota, that's why there's guys like me. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ so i wasn't playing much of a role in my own life, but with advair, i'm breathing better

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we take pride in what we do. when that refrigerator ships out the door, it's us that work out here. [ michael ] we're on the forefront of revitalizing manufacturing. we're proving that it can be done here, and it can be done well. [ ilona ] i came to ge after the plant i was working at closed after 33 years. ge's giving me the chance to start back over. [ cindy ] there's construction workers everywhere. so what does that mean? it means work. it means work for more people. [ brian ] there's a bright future here, and there's a chance to get on the ground floor of something big, something that will bring us back. not only this company, but this country. ♪

♪ we just had a great fascinating conversation about detroit. i wanted to show. we didn't get this in because i didn't want to interrupt our two excellent guests. henry melcher found this amazing image in the file. romney's detroit house. there it is. boarded up. >> wow. >> may 15, 2010 photo. the romney house in a section in detroit. it was torn down tuesday, june 8th, 2010. the 5500 square foot house lived in by mitt romney when he was a

child. it was torn down in the palmer woods area and three set for demolition under the mayor's plan to get rid of dangerous eyesores. he is in ford field in front of the empty stadium and creates echoing of res sans and now the head of the american motor company, last by gone era had to be destroyed because it had become a hazard. what makes detroit powerful is the birth place of the american car. the car is one of the two pillars of the american dream. the other, of course, is the detached single family home. such structures make up almost two-thirds of the nation's housing stock but more than that, the single family home is an essential plot point in the story of the american dream. we know how it impose. you spent your 20s renting and you meet someone you love, you settle down, get a career and and get a house and enough space for children.

it was this aspiration that provided the fuel for the engine of destruction that was the great housing machine that wall street built the last decade. the trauma of the housing bubble and the financial crisis and foreclosure it has created has left a landscape of ruin and abandonment. blocks of vacant boarded up homes and all of this forces us to reassess our fundamental adherence to the single family suburban home as the cornerstone of american life. at the mutual of modern art five architects were assigned a suburban community and asked to imagine in the design a vision what sustainable post-crisis communities could be if we rethink our beliefs about the american house. one of them whose work we are looking at right now is michael bell of visible weather in new york and owe joins us. thanks for coming. >> thank you for inviting me. >> i cannot tell you how much i love this exhibit. i just thought it was fascinating to start thinking in

these terms. in some ways it brings the discussion we have had in detroit which is a discussion about how do you take this moment of crisis and ruin and abandonment and turn it into an opportunity to rethink things to the national level we have some of the communities in niece subur -- these suburbe suburbauburbs. tell me about where you were assigned to look at and how you think what kind of place you would design in the wake of the foreclosure crisis. >> we were asked by the museum to work on temple terrace florida and it's a little town in florida of 22,000 people and incorporated city in 1926 and proceeded the growth of tampa and tampa came to meet temple terrace in a situation that was very rural and became urban. temple terrace had a relatively low foreclosure rate. 168 foreclosures in a town of

10,000 households. it came much more of how did temp terrace operate and what was its densities, et cetera, et cetera. it became a project of trying to produce a future against those kind of problems rather than being immediately reactive to the problem now. >> what does that mean? i think we sort of have a sense of the automobile, the sort of oil-fueled world of post world ii america and suburban sprawl as these kind of things conspired to built the great american suburban landscape. what re-thinking does that involve from a policy perspective, design perspective? >> i worked on these things in the last 15 years. i worked in the houston fifth ward around the clinton administration changes in housing law and i've worked on them in many other conditions the last 15 years. i think the huge issue -- every five years you could say the terms change.

in the 1990s you had a booming economy and a push to alter, if not end, the welfare state by the 2000s a real estate bubble and today a foreclosure crisis. in all of these situations a couple of things consistent. the amount of money people spend on housing and transportation is immense and they can't afford it. you want to be more positive than that. many, many factors about afford ability and energy consumption and, frankly, about the role of design in any of it. the american single family house is a commodity product that has virtually no research and development and no design. architects in a spec house in houston in the late 1990s the fee was about $12 per house. these are mass produced commodities. there is no professional engagement and so it's not that the suburbs -- i think most people in this exhibition are quite positive and excited about the suburbs. we know it's a deeply, deeply important part of the american e, th

ethos if not american life. the underpinnings have shifted the last five to 15 years. not just the last two. >> tell me about the video. it blew my mind the comparison of how much r&d goes into your iphone or antilock brakes versus american homes. >> i did mention antilock brakes. yes, when many commodities before they hit the market, the billions of dollars that might proceed it whether it's clorox or an iphone or honda civic which is quite an ingenious product, housing as we know it has kind of ironed it all out of it and it did it a long time ago. one thing we look at temple terrace, aggregate income 1.10 million a year. they are paying, you know, mercedes-benz for a 20-year-old used car. the single family house market out of the financial processes and you still are spending large

sums of money but not getting a sophisticated product. it's not it's not a nice product or something people love but it could be much better in energy and everything else. >> are you envisioning a -- urbanization of america the next 20, 30 years? at its peak, houses got big and physical footprints the houses were sitting on got very big. >> increased density? >> density is all five projects on the show deal with density and deal with trying to find housing that is probably more financially and size wise appropriate to its user but would use less energy to lower carrying costs. but i think many of the people, including ourselves, we were looking at ways to take underutilized process publicly held or publicly controlled and increase density around infrastructure. the public has paid for all of that infrastructure and isn't using it. you have $7 billion in roads and a little town of 22,000 people. >> is that true? is that the number, 7 billion in

roads? not in that little town. >> that's a lot! i want to talk about the mortgage and the future of the mortgage right after we come back from this break. crest 3d wd by marie claire as one of the 25 beauty products that will change your life because it whitens by removing up to 80% of surface stains. see how it can change your life. crest 3d white. life opens up when you do. today is gonna be an important day for us. you ready? we wanna be our brother's keeper. what's number two we wanna do? bring it up to 90 decatherms. how bout ya, joe? let's go ahead and bring it online. attention on site, attention on site. now starting unit nine. some of the world's cleanest gas turbines are now powering some of america's biggest cities. siemens. answers.

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new glidden duo paint plus primer. only at the home depot. and starting at only $24.97 a gallon. all right. the future of the american home and american dream which are sort of married together, i think. >> right. >> and one of the things that this exhibition makes you think about is the underlying financial structure and policy structure that gives rise to the american suburb and the single family home. i think we think of it as they grow like corn in corn fields. right? particularly during the housing building you drive out west where i was living in chicago you drive west and they are being built. like an organic structure. there is a structureunder neath. a public policy structure particularly the mortgage interest deduction that helps produce this. >> this is -- yeah.

the curators of the show, barry is the chief curator. one of the big points of the show. but anybody who deals with housing issues that production makes a huge amount of american housing public housing at some level. a far bigger expend ndur d expenditure. lower housing tax credits i think are probably 30 billion. the federal government at this point in time does not build directly public housing any long and has it through tax credits. >> for people to purchase their own homes and take out a lot of debt they can take the interest of which take off against their taxes? >> that's right. the low income housing tax credit since the 19 -- >> there is an constitutional part of it. i think there is the emotional part of it. >> exactly. >> how do you roll back half a century of the american dream? >> absolutely. >> what type of public service

announcements are going to put forward? the american dream has changed. i mean, i think that is even the bigger challenge. it's a huge tralg. >> how about this? embrace the dream: rent. >> you guys are a tough audience. >> this is really my question, right? let's talk about that for a second. one of the other architects, jeanne gang, who did a project on the exhibit she said you're sort of making a casino when you buy a house, right? you're betting on that it's, a, it's going to rise in value, right? that was a bet a lot of people made and now on the wrong side of that bet. you're also betting about what your life is going to look like, how many people are going to inhabit that house. you're putting your wealth into that saying i'm going to be married with the two kids and the dog and the fact is new family members come in as immigrants possibly or you get divorced owner there is all sorts -- >> or you lose your job. >> our your kids move back because they can't jobs.

the house is flexible to deal with the changing american family. >> no. i mean, just to put it in context for a moment. i think people have looked for both changing or improving the suburbs for a long time. go back to the 1970s, et cetera, the reason i bring that up is what is different at this point in time is everything from globalization in terms of where is production happening and what are jobs. when you talk about housing you ultimately always even if you're an architect you talk about jobs. what will secure that loan in the future? so flexibility comes in. the difference now i think is what people i think, realize in the foreclosure crisis is an awful thing. it is absolutely a crisis but it starts to create a situation people imagine what they have is not inevitable and in fact, it was produced and it was dreamed and i think people don't like change in housing and they should worry about change in housing but what we have is also not terribly secure and so i think that's what you're bringing up. jeanne was bringing that up

quite brilliantly. >> one of the things i think detroit forces us to think the things we think are natural are contingent. the thought experiment were talking about in our staff imagine 50 years silicon valley looking like detroit, right? detroit was the silicon valley of its time and. you went back in time and you told people what it was going to look like, they would laugh at you. >> they would. >> they would say you're crazy. right now we think mark zuckerberg's house in palo alto is always going to be there, right? >> what is going to happen is the american dream is going to get redefined if it survives, but we're moving ahead into a landscape where standards of living, in general, in this country are just going to be lower. i mean, then i assume that housing becomes like an integral part of that and it seems to me more people will rent and it seems to me houses have to be smaller and they have to, at some point, become more affordable, i assume. the question becomes what does that look like ten, 15 years down the road?

>> if we continue to have the mortgage deduction which you're talking talking about. >> almost all of us agree impossible to kill. >> if you killed it, who would benefit from killing it? >> not like we will say we will give that money to poor people. >> everybody is vested in that including the more elite people that benefit from it. >> instead of the mcmansions, thinking about more efficient -- >> the -- it incentivized. if we move to a fut that is not what the mottle it's scaled down, we should reincentivize the tax code. >> a big -- it's the treasury deferring income rather than having an expenditure. i think what has gone on, et cetera, is the degree to which we don't have an easy political

on faye affordability or poverty is legitimate. people do care but the new deal and housing acts in the '30s were called from socialism to unfair government competition with the markets. it's worth looking the -- segregated commercial -- stegal was on both. >> really? >> it's very interesting. >> interesting guy. now huge conglomerate banks and no housing. >> the terms end up being a reduction. i think what could happen instead is that with energy analysis. for example the way we build houses is a desegregated manner. if we could develop them with a much more sophisticated set of research and development it might not be -- i think that is what all five projects are saying. >> i think high water mark. it's second to the health care

deduction, is that right? >> yes. >> are they coming down? fewer people own their homes and it should be coming down to 70 billion, right? >> that money could move into research and development. >> that's right. >> is that your plug? >> i never thought of it until now. >> we will see the market produce smaller homes in the wake of this crisis whether there is a lesson learned there or just start the it up again and dance -- >> i think the people investing in housing will be fearful in investing the old versions of housing and look for a new product of investing. >> michael bell, "foreclosed rehousing the american dream" thank you. >> what do we know now we didn't know last week? my answers after this. know you t until the end of the quarter to think about your money... ♪ ...that right now, you want to know where you are, and where you'd like to be. we know you'd like to see the same information your advisor does so you can get a deeper understanding

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your finances can't manage themselves. but that doesn't mean they won't try. bring all your finances together with the help of the one person who can. a certified financial planner professional. cfp. let's make a plan. qup. a quick update. meghan mccain referred to a rancher shot by an illegal

immigrant. we should point out no one arrested to the shooting so the killer ae killer's identity has not been established. service plans to shut down 223 of its 461 mail processing plants by 2013 closings to generate 35,000 jobs. the postal service is seeking congressional approval to end saturday mail delivery. in a second i'll tell you what i didn't know when the week began but now a preview of what is coming up this morning. >> we have a lot of different things on good morning on mhp. you have not only been hearing a lot about the church and state and the question of church and state. this morning, we are going to talk about the state. we are actually going to do 17th century political theory. >> awesome! >> should be a lot of fun! talk affirmative action a little and undoubtedly about the oscars. i'm going to talk about the help. >> if people don't know, melissa

has strong, strong feelings about the help. you definitely do not want to miss that. what do we know now we didn't know last week? mitt romney has done what every republican didn't has already done and proposed a massive tax cut and skew towards the wealthiest and supporting the deficit he cares so much about. romney's proposed tax cuts were found to reduce federal tax levels by 10.7 trillion. we know that josh barrow observed if romney wants to push through the tax cuts without increasing the deficit it would, quote, require spending cuts over and above those already necessary to close a long-term budget gap will exist if tax policy remains the same as it is today. thanks for michigan republican congressman and senate candidate

pete hookstra. he had this ad during the super bowl. >> thank you, michigan senator. debbie spent so much american money. you buy more and more from us. your economy get very weak. ours get very good. we take your jobs. thank you, debbiespend it now. >> i think this race is between debbie spend it now and pete spend it not. i'm pete and i approve this message. >> we know the actress in the ad of san francisco has since apologized for her role in it. we also know that republicans have responded favorably to the ad allowing hoekstra take the lead over his primary rivals but we know that debbie has gone from a 7-.lead in the polls to a 21-point lead in the latest nbc marist poll opinion we know a

survey found 40% made them less likely to vote for hoekstra. those advocating for voter i.d. law in minnesota a state with a long proud tradition of ballot access and high turnout put this image on the website we want voter i.d..com earlier this week and depicts a black man in a prison uniform in front of the voting booth in front of a band and cartoon figures. we know we have rarely seen a less obvious picture of that for the push of the republicans in 21 states to make voting harder. we know the aclu of minnesota offered a cash reward to anyone can document a single case of a person from minnesota being

charged with voter impetition impersonation. we know mortgage servicers have proceedings improperly whether homeowner is awaiting modification. we know the actual final terms of that mortgage settlement we heard so much about haven't been announced and know if the banks attitude is any indication the banks will attempt to wiggle their way out of it as soon as the ink is dry. we know the new consumer finance protection bureau will be investigating banks overdraft fees. we know even the savviest most prudent consumers have been hit with overdraft fees and not understanding what the policy is. we know the probe by the agency could result in new rules regulating the practice. finally we all now know the meaning of the adjective transvaginal! it refers to ultrasound carried out with this infamous wand thanks to the virginia legislature mandating the procedure for any woman wanting to have an abortion. we know the outrage across the

country and people showing up to protest prompted the governor mcdonnell rethink of his support for the bill and called for the legislators to remove the bill. we know the fight isn't over as regular exterior ultrasound will be required to determine the gestational age of the victory. we know activism works. what did my guests find out that they didn't know this week? we will find out after this. bored with your one trick lipstick?

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to find out what my guests know when the week began, bob her had bert? >> we've had good economic news but i'd add a word of caution. when gas prices are higher, retail sales are weak. this is still a very fragile economy. we've got instability in the middle east and the european situation and if the republicans came with their deficit reduction plans that would pitch us right back into a recession.

>> but haven't they already sort of done that? we've -- >> no. i mean if you look at the presidential candidates and the kind of cuts they're talking about, if they were somehow able to gain power and put those cuts into effect, forget about it. >> tom shawler, what do you now know? >> we know the culture of the politics didn't end in 200i8, te first election during the economic election. we know a willful politician in rick santorum, give him credit, can with circumstances helping him in places like virginia can reinvigorate what he and other republicans believe is important arguments and maybe winning arguments. but this notion we're in a post-culture war america got upset this week. >> there was an interesting moment where they asked the question about birth control and they booed in response to the fact they're bringing it up. it made me see republicans and conservatives are on the losing side of this. >> the statistic i read is that

99% of women and 98% of catholic women in america at some point in their adulthood has used contraception. that's got to be a typo, like nothing is 100%. i think the republicans read newspapers and poll results, too, so it's a real risky proposition for rick santorum to say, i'm going to carve out this piece. i'm going to be this guy. it might work for him in the primary election. we'll see about the general. >> what do you know now? >> i'm going to build on tom's point saying that catholic voters cannot be pushed right. the catholics were against contraception. we're going to be no matter. the ones for it are for it against it. you cannot push the catholic vote, the swing vote, this ideal people want to capture. this the translate into independent women, it goes beyond a catholic issue and into

dependant issues. it's not going to hurt obama. >> exit polls indicate that in 2008 obama barack obama won 13 point women it's hard to run the numbers and have a republican winner unless they do better with women. >> james, what do you now know? >> ei'm going to talk foreign policy. i had my suspicions but now i know things in syria are only going to get worse and the administration is not happy about it. the guys obama has on his team in the white house are serious and this is going to come to a head. the administration doesn't want israel to do the bombing. stay tuned for horrible details. >> yeah. the iran -- the sort of triangle of fluninfluence pushback is a complicated multifaceted

situation and difficult to discern as a citizen because there's intelligence being referred to. we're going to get into that in a big way tomorrow with a great group of people. we'll spend time and also have an iranian here on set to talk about how it's being viewed inside iran. that's part of the conversation we never had. my thanks to my panel. thanks for getting up. thank you for join being us today for "up." next is melissa harris-perry. join us tomorrow. you can follow us on twitter and join the conversation. see you tomorrow. thanks so much for getting "up." wake up!

that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8.

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