>> he was known as the most dangerous man alive. >> if i started murdering people, there would be none of you left. >> in 1987, the "today" show went to san quentin state prison and interviewed the infamous charles manson. he was unshackled and unapologetic. >> you know, if i wanted to kill somebody, i'd take this book and beat you to death with it. and i wouldn't feel a thing. >> the interview sparked controversy within nbc. >> we here on the "today" show staff debated among ourselves whether to air his answers. half of our staff said, absolutely not. >> in the end just seven minutes aired on the "today" show.

now 20 years later, former fbi profiler candace delong examines the entire interview. >> he certainly has his issues mentally and psychiatrically. but he is not seriously, seriously mentally ill. >> making sense of the mind of manson. >> friday night in los angeles, a movie actress and four of her friends were murdered and the circumstances were lurid. >> the news out of los angeles, august 10th, 1969, was shocking. five people had been brutally murdered. among the dead, roman polanski's wife, sharon tate. she was eight months pregnant. >> she'd been stabbed. repeated stab wounds. one of the victims had a hood placed over his head and the

word "pig" was written in blood on the door. >>ut the carnage wasn't over. the following night, police found two more victims. >> leo labianca, a supermarket owner and his wife, had both been stabbed to death. repeated stab wounds. on his body the word "war" has been carved in the chest. then with blood, the killer had scrawled on the refrigerator door the words "death to pigs." hoods had been placed over the heads of both victims. >> despite the obvious similarities between the two murder scenes, los angeles police failed to make any connection. until jailed manson follower susan atkins began talking. her story was chilling. >> a lawyer for a girl involved in a peculiar gang which may have killed sharon tate and her friends described the killings today. the lawyer, paul caruso, said five people dressed in black entered ms. tate's home after cutting the power and telephone lines and went methodically about the business of killing five people.

the next night, he said, they killed a husband and wife, took a shower in their home, calmly ate some food and left. caruso represents susan atkins, a member of the gang or commune. he said she and the others were completely under what he called the insane influence of charles manson. >> it's all a play, isn't it? >> manson and his followers, charles tex watson, who did most of the actual killing, patricia krenwinkel, shown here on the left, leslie van houten and susan atkins were all convicted and condemned to die in the gas chamber. their sentences, however, were later commuted to life when california temporarily dropped the death penalty in 1972. not long after, the fbi began researching serial killers and developed a profile on charles manson. one of the profilers who would study him was candice delong. what drew you to the study of manson?

>> in training to become a profiler, we learned about all different kinds of criminal minds, and he was one of the many, many people that we studied. he was fascinating because a lot of people think charles manson is a killer. in fact, he directed others to kill. >> manson personally killed just one of the nine victims, the cowboy and aspiring actor, shorty shea. still, manson is thought by most people to be a serki the whole image is one of tense evil, i guess. a frightening character who might slash out at any moment. people almost seem to be afraid of him when they're in his presence. >> i think that's very accurate, assessment, that people are afraid of him and i think he enjoys scaring people. >> hello? >> how do you do, how do you do? >> in 1987, 18 years after the murders, manson agreed to talk with "today" show correspondent heidi schulman at san quentin state prison about the book "manson in his own words" an autobiography of sorts.

told to former prison mate nuel emmons. >> if i like this book, there would be a lot of people that probably wouldn't buy it. but if i don't like it, everyone that doesn't like me will probably buy it. >> you said you weren't impressed with it. >> no, not really, no. >> why not? >> well, we are good friends but we don't live in the same road. he's walking on one road and i'm living on another one, you know? he's making money and he's in business to be a writer. that's his trip. that's not my trip. i'm not into that. and he's kowtowed himself and compromised himself to the public. i think the public is full of it. they're a bunch of ants that want to eat me up, and they feed on fear and things that they're insecure about. they want to blame someone else,

like a bunch of chickens pecking on each other. well, i fell up underneath the pecking order and i was convicted for being the father of this country. i was convicted for being jesus christ and the devil. now, if that makes any sense to your reality, public, you know, there's something missing in your world. >> i can tell you, having dealt with very crazy people for a long time, if he truly believed what he just said, he wouldn't then look into the camera and say, "if that makes any sense to you." he certainly has his issues mentally and psychiatrically, but he is not seriously, seriously mentally ill. in fact, if he were seriously mentally ill, for example, such as an untreated schizophrenic, hearing voices, he probably would not have been successful in getting anyone to follow him anywhere. >> this, though, is a particularly dangerous kind of condition.

>> oh, yes. >> because of his ability to play it as if he is crazy but really isn't. >> you can't blame someone for nine mayhem murders unless you want to say i have laid, plotted and designed to destroy you and i'm working to save my air, my water, my trees and my wildlife and i'm trying to do away with society. i tried to stop nixon and i stopped him dead in his tracks. i tried to stop the vietnam war and i did it. >> what do you think of that? >> rather omnipotent, isn't he? but it's also not uncharacteristic of people that are successful in getting other people to go with them. >> and all the things i did, i did without breaking the law, because your law of 1776, you got jet airplanes going 6,000 miles an hour and you're reading books that was written on the back of horses. why don't you tell the public what's really going on.

why don't you tell them that the water so is bad fish can't live in it. why don't you tell them that the polar caps are melting because you created so much heat with this machine. you see what i'm saying? >> but, now, i want to point something out. >> yes. >> this is a long time ago. >> yes. well, if you recall, back in that era is when an awareness of our environment and the harm we were doing to it -- people became aware of it for the first time and one of the things that manson repeatedly does throughout this interview and that he also did with these young people then is kind of puts himself out there as the savior of the environment. you think i'm bad? you think i hurt someone? well, what about you? you're destroying the air, you're destroying the water. the polar caps are melting because of you. i'm not so bad. i care about the environment, but you! >> you won't face the fact that there's a holy war moving upon the planet earth. you couldn't see the blood

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now available on your phone. get a free quote today. in 1967, the haight-ashbury district in san francisco was the epicenter of the wide open, anything-goes atmosphere of the late '60s. it was here that small-time crook charles manson landed after seven years in prison for running prostitutes and writing bad checks. manson claimed to be like everybody flocking to haight-ashbury, if just a bit older. he told most people he was searching for peace and love just like them. but his dark side soon took over. >> manson was in his early 30s at the time that he was in the haight-ashbury, developing what became known as his family. so there were all these young

people there looking for something. many of them using drugs. and he gave them what they were looking for. he said, free food, free lodging, free sex, so free love as it was called then, all just flowed because he played a guitar, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. to an 18, 17-year-old runaway who might have, wow, this guy is really something. and the family grew. >> as his family grew, manson, a racist at his core, became increasingly paranoid about a war between blacks and whites. then in december 1968, the beatles released the song "helter skelter." ♪ look out ♪ helter skelter >> manson believed the lyrics predicted a race war, and he began calling the war "helter skelter." >> one of the things that apparently he was trying to do was hide out in the desert with

his clan, and when the race war was over, everything would be fine for him and his family to come back in essentially and take over. a rather elaborate, what i would call, delusion. based in personal hatred. >> and then he would spark it with these murders. >> that he would spark it, and that these murders -- the word helter skelter was actually written at one of the homes. >> in the book "manson in his own words," manson admitted to planning the tate and labianca murders. but in this 1987 interview, he steadfastly refused to admit guilt or show any remorse for his actions. >> you won't face the fact that there's a holy war moving upon the planet earth. you couldn't see the blood splattered all over the walls? now you say you want to blame one guy for it. i seen it. i witnessed it go by. i seen the children, what they were trying to do, and i was sympathetic with them.

but you might say i'm a devil in this respect, that i never broke will or entered into anyone's circle with breaking will in any respect whatsoever. i just watched the [ bleep ] flow downstream. >> he had nothing to do with anything. i just watched it all go by. that reminds me of the night they entered the labianca home and he tied up those two people. and then went outside. but he didn't have anything to do with a knife plunging into a chest. therefore, he's okay. >> from your words as mr. emmons quotes them in his book, it's clear that you were guilty of murder. yet he says in all his conversations with you, he never heard you express remorse. have you never felt it? >> remorse for what? you people have done everything in the world to me. doesn't that give me equal right? >> there's your confession right there. remorse for what? look what you've done to me. doesn't that give me the right?

i take that as a confession. >> i can do anything i want to you people at any time i want to, because that's what you've done to me. if you spit in my face and smack me in the mouth and throw me in solitary confinement for nothing, what do you think is going to happen when i get out of here? what do you think's going to happen to you? the things that you create in here. >> that was deliberate. what do you think's going to happen when i get out of here and then he turns and looks right in the camera and opens up those eyes of his. it's a threat. it's i'm really dangerous and you better learn it now. >> and what, keep me in here, where i am, where i'm safe? >> actually, the day before, if not the morning of, charles manson's release from prison, there were many releases from prison. but the last one before he went in for these crimes, he begged the parole board not to release him. he said he could not live on the outside.

he had tried it. he had always failed. >> there's no need to feel guilty. i haven't done anything i'm ashamed of. maybe i haven't done enough. i might be ashamed of that, for not doing enough, for not giving enough, for not being more perceptive, for not being aware enough. for not understanding. for being stupid. maybe i should have killed 400 or 500 people, then i would have felt better. then i would have felt like i really offered society something. >> have you never felt remorse for the crimes you committed? >> what crimes? i told you i haven't committed any crimes. i don't break laws. i don't need to break a law. why should i break the law? i'm in god's will. do you feel guilty? do you feel guilty for the thousands and millions of indians that you destroyed? do you feel guilty for the gas chambers where you've killed the jews? do you feel guilty for timeless,

endless -- how far can you go back and say guilty of what? guilty of what? there's no need to be guilty. then you're going to make me suffer until i say, okay, now i feel guilty. do you feel secure now that i feel guilty? is that going to make you feel better if i feel guilty? i'm guilty. hmm. i wouldn't do anything that i felt guilty about. >> that's a big rant about guilt, isn't it? >> yeah, a big rant about guilt. i don't believe he feels guilty about the nine people that died. >> you believe that he does think it was a small, rather insignificant thing compared to what the wider society has done to him? >> that is his belief and that is what he's -- he's not going to let go of that. >> when we come back -- >> follow me. did you have any choice? you'll all follow me. >> so why did anyone follow him? [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota.

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the book says you get a lot of mail from people who want to follow you still. >> follow me?

did you have any choice? you'll all follow me. you know, you got these people over here that want to live. you want to live? get in line, we'll live. if you don't want to live, hurry up. you know, the gate's open, do your thing, man. here, give them some coke. all charlie's friends get free coke. give them cocaine. let them go, man. if they want to commit suicide, get some suicide parlors out there and let all them self-destructive idiots go. all the people that want to live, stop cutting the trees and stop polluting the ground. you dig? let's clean up the world we live in. you know? hey, hey, hey, how you doing? you still in there? anybody there? >> susan atkins, patricia krenwinkel, leslie van houten, tex watson, they followed charles manson and they killed for him. all were young, impressionable

and looking for another way. at one point, manson had more than 20 followers, many of whom believed he was christ returned. some stayed devoted to manson throughout the trial. and later at the prison. a testament to his influence, perhaps. or their gullibility. >> i can see how charles manson did what he did and the power trip he was on and what is fascinating to me are people that will become the followers of someone like this and stay devoted to them beyond reason. and do things for them. >> for such a long time. >> for such a long time, yes. it certainly makes you wonder about the core personality of someone who so willingly, essentially devotes their life to another person. yet we see this kind of thing over and over. waco, texas, the koresh flock, and there's others. >> you use the word flocks. those flocks stay with the leader in many other cases besides this one?

>> frequently. >> what is it? is it the fact that the initial commitment was so enormous that they somehow can't psychically can't afford to let it go? >> it might be that. it also could be that the devotion takes on an obsessional nature. if someone is prone to obsess, they're not going to be likely to let it go. they won't want to let it go. >> you say you could never have had in the world as many followers as you have because of the sensationalism. >> i never had any followers. i had a lot of friends. they weren't followers, they were friends. they were people that we sit down and we were honest with. we smoked grass and sit in a circle and looked at candles. you know? there was no followers, there was no leaders. >> he corrects her when she says followers and says no, no, these were friends. many of them were so afraid of him they refused to testify or cooperate with the police in any way. and a number of his "friends" ended up dead under unusual

circumstances. one with a bullet in his head supposedly that he got from playing russian roulette with the group. so his friends were very frightened of him hurting them. >> just a bunch of intelligent people trying to put some order into their existence. they're trying to get out from underneath what their parents left them. they're trying to get unlocked from the second world war. they're trying to get out from the burning monk that's in the street burning himself to death because something's not right, something's off balance. do you ever take it back upon yourself to say that you're responsible for helter skelter? did jerry ruben and abbie hoffman and dr. timothy leary take any responsibility for the children that they said i influenced? you want to drop the blame on charlie and say it's all charlie's fault. >> what did you do? >> i do the best thing i know how, nothing. i [ bleep ]. i play music and i smoke a little grass now and then. because it helps me and i like

to relax with it. that's about it. i don't see anything wrong with drugs. drugs is all right if you don't misuse them. if you misuse them and you're misinformed about them, then you make a big bad thing about them. that's what the public has done. >> charles manson, drug counselor. he's going on and on about not misusing drugs. he used drugs, serious drugs, mind-altering drugs, lsd, extensively with his followers. some of them have reported after the group would have dinner, they would drop acid. and he would get on this pedestal kind of thing and do his preaching to them. he definitely knew the effects that drugs could have, and he used it to his advantage. >> if i wanted to kill somebody, i would take this book and beat you to death with it and i wouldn't feel a thing. it would be just like walking to the drugstore. >> i believe that. >> but yet you want to come and say, do you feel blame? are you mad? do you feel like -- [ speaking jibberish ] why don't you blame the little

babies? >> mr. emmons, this is a -- >> i got to take a [ bleep ]. would you excuse me? you don't mind if i'm direct and to the point, do you? >> not at all. >> it don't take me to tell you that you're about ten pounds overweight, does it? >> thanks. >> but i can be honest with you, can't i? >> what is the worst thing you can say to a woman who makes her career in television? >> i think he just managed it. >> and he did it with a smile on his face. come on, you want me to be honest, don't you? >> so he's not terribly happy with the way this has gone. >> i think that may well be. in his mind, he thought he was hurting her. probably i believe because he's angry. >> when we come back -- >> first of all, my mother was a prostitute. and she lived in the street. >> the source of manson's rage.

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hello. i'm milissa rehberger. exclusive nbc video shows the pakistani government demolishing the compound where osama bin laden lived for years before being killed last may. the property will be turned into a park. and nelson mandela is in the hospital being tested for a long standing abdominal complaint. the 93-year-old mandela is said to be fine and fully conscious. how are you doing? >> good. how are you this morning? >> charles manson was responsible for the murders of nine innocent people. he became a terrifying cultural icon. >> how you do? how you do? we've invited former fbi profiler candice delong to watch manson's 1987 "today" show interview and shed some light on one of america's most notorious killers. what produced the violence? what was the point? >> well, i think where the violence comes in is the psychopathic or antisocial, if

you will, nature of charles manson. this is a man who had a, to say the least, troubled, undisciplined, abusive childhood, and neglected and did not have good parental supervision. it just was chaotic. a chaotic life. >> charles manson was born "no name maddox" on november 12th, 1934, in cincinnati, ohio. to 16-year-old kathleen maddox. kathleen was a hard-partying thief first and a mother a distant second. manson acted out accordingly. and from the age of 12, spent the bulk of his life in reform schools and prisons. he never knew his father. and as for his relationship with kathleen, it was, to say the least, complicated. though his mother denied it, manson often claimed she was a prostitute.

>> if you got a game going, you know, and you need somebody for an excuse, first of all, my mother was a prostitute and she lived in the street. so you can't very well say that i pimped my mother when she gave me some milk. do you see what i'm saying? in other words, i was raised in that alley. that alley is where i live. i live in the street. i lived where it's rough and it's tough and it's hard. nobody gave me nothing. everything i got i had to fight for it and scratch for it. so it's the same principle when it comes down to surviving. if me and you are on the street, you're the strong one, you're the one with the power. i take second seat with you. i say look here, girl, here's our problem, what are we going to do about it? now, if you got to give up a little something up on the side, to do it, there ain't no jealousy in me. what you do is your affair. but we're hungry here, moms.

you dig what i'm saying? so the broad went out and she made a few dollars. she come back and said, here, money. i said, money, that's what we need. so i took the money. now the law and the government calls that pimping. >> when he was young, very young, it appears, based on what i've read, she repeatedly rejected him. and gave him to relatives to take care of. >> and like a lot of children who feel rejected by a parent early on, they spend the rest of their lives trying to somehow win the respect of the parent. >> right. win their love, win their favor. which is why i think he probably repeatedly went back to her. there was at least one time the condition of his parole was that he not live with his mother, which is exactly what he did. >> what happens to a person's attempts to become a mature human being when they feel they're lacking that kind of love and support from a parent? >> it can be very difficult for

a child who suffered parental deprivation, of the magnitude that charles manson did, to develop a whole, complete, mature, loving, warm personality that doesn't have a lot of flaws. >> do we know anything about what his mother's run-ins with the law may have been or her behaviors? >> well, she had him when she was 16 and relatives -- some people describe her as being, oh, she was loose and liked to drink and live on the streets. >> early prison reports describe manson as having an intense need to call attention to himself, and a tendency to involve himself in fanatical interests. manson was an avowed follower of scientology for a time. but his greatest passion was playing guitar. it was a talent for singing and songwriting, as well as manson's entourage of available young women, that grabbed the attention of some in los angeles' musical elite, including beach boy's drummer dennis wilson. >> i lived in hollywood and had all that, the rolls-royce and

the ferrari, and the pad in beverly hills. i had the surfboard and the beach boys and neil diamond and and jimmy swiften and elvis presleys and the america's bestlies and all them guys. the dean martins and the nancy sinatras. and -- will you do it to me, i hear you do it good, honey. will you come up to my house later? so i went through all that and i seen that was a bigger prison than the one i just got out of. and i really didn't care to go back to prison. you see, prison doesn't begin and end at the gate. prison's in the mind. it's locked in one world that's dead and dying or it's open to a world that's free and alive. drugs, lsd, i don't consider a drug, i don't consider peyote a drug. those are more or less religiously significant awareness, mind-expanding apparatuses that come from the intelligence of the universe. the reason that the girls liked me was --

♪ hey now, hey now, i'm all around you ♪ ♪ round you ♪ hey now, up on your heart i can sing through you ♪ and i'd play and i'd sing and they'd say hey, man, you got soul in that music. and i said, yeah, i play a little bit, you know. i like music. and they said, man, you're really somebody. i said, oh, i am? oh, i just got out of jail. i don't know what somebody is. they liked my music. they say, man, we want to get you over. i say, get me over for what? they say, we take you down here to beverly hills and we want to get you in because you're a star. i said, i'm a what? they said, you're a star. so they took me to the beach boys and i went and i got on the surfboard and i rode around and i looked and i said, gee, this is more trouble than what i just got out of. you got nine -- now look at yourself. you got to wear that, whether you like it or not. you've got to do things. you've got to get and up go through all kind of changes. whether you want to or not

doesn't matter. your whole life is put in your paycheck. i don't -- you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to do something i don't want to do. if i'm shoveling the barn and you want me to go -- i say, no, no, i'm doing something right here. i'm helping this blind man. >> that story is fascinating. he says he was offered something in beverly hills. >> yes, he says he was offered something in beverly hills. he very much wanted to make his life as a musician. thought he was better than the beatles. apparently he was good at playing the guitar. he met a man who knew terry melcher, who was a music producer, a very successful music producer. and that man told manson, a friend of mine is in the biz, maybe he can launch your star. so he brought manson to meet terry melcher. terry melcher listened to his music and passed on it. that night they all got in the same car and they gave melcher a ride home. manson was in the car.

terry melcher's home was 10050 cielo drive. later to be the scene of the tate murders. manson had been there before. the time he was there was at a time when he had been rejected by someone in the business for something he wanted very, very much. which was -- >> he was going to be a star, that's the man who told him he wasn't going to be a star? >> that's right. >> and the place they dropped that man is where the murder occurred. >> that's right. >> so it was a revenge killing. >> i believe it was, but they got the wrong people. >> so a disguise within a disguise, a man who claims he's trying to launch some sort of revolution or start a war between whites and blacks. >> actually wanted to be a rock -- >> he's killing the guy or he thinks he's killing the guy who prevented him from being a rock star. >> from being a rock star, right. >> hmm. >> one of the most basic motivators of murder, revenge. >> when we come back -- >> the only thing i did at that ranch is i said don't you lie.

if i catch you lying, i'll take you out behind the barn. we just never lied to each other. we started telling each other the truth. >> the truth, according to manson. hello, how can i deliver world-class service

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seemed that facts are beside the point. truth is perhaps a relative term. >> did he lie about you in this book? >> lie? now there's discrepancies in words. words have many meanings and they lean on each other. and each person has their own interpretation. i'm not talking about a [ bleep ] that you learn in school. i'm talking the basic, simple, childish, 5-year-old truth. yes, mama, i did. or, no, mama, i didn't. you know. >> is this book true? >> true? it's true from his point of view. it's the way he sees it. it's true for the people, it's true for his wife and children. it's true for the people that want it to be true. that's when you're dealing with the public. you deal with the public off the bottom. you deal them what they want to buy and what they want to hear. there's a certain amount of

honesty that exists in the world of crime. the outlaw must be honest with himself. first of all, to be able to face the things that run in the world of the outlaw. someone comes to me and says we're going to kill so and so. i tell them, oh. what do you think about that? i don't think about it. i'm not mad at him. i don't even know the dude. they say, well, we're going to get him. i say, what do you want me to do? they say, do you want to come with us and help us? i say, nope. i'm not breaking no laws this time. i'm not breaking no laws this time. can't that come into your brain? i did not break the law. jesus christ told you that 2,000 years ago. you don't understand me, that's your trouble, not my fault because you don't understand me. i don't understand you either. but i don't spend my whole life trying to put the blame over on you because my cigarette didn't light or because something didn't work right. what do you want to call me a murderer for? i've never killed anyone. i don't need to kill anyone.

i think it. i have it here. i don't need to live in this physical realm. i walk around in the physical realm and i put on the faces and i talk and i play. it's a big act, man. in the spiritual world is where i live. i exist in places you never even dreamed of. >> you almost hate to think of manson thinking he contributed something personally to knowledge about human behavior. but he has, hasn't he? >> what we learned from manson is how somebody can be affected to a point of having psychiatric problems and still be charismatic and manipulative enough and have enough going on upstairs to plan and organize two massacres. very organized killings. >> i don't fit in society and i am incompetent. i never been a success at anything. i even got to the point where i didn't want to be a success at anything. what would being a success, what

does that mean? you know? money? oh, i've had all the money in the world three times and i had to give it back. that's a stupid little game, you know. i hardly even think about it too much. it's hard for me to remember breakfast. in fact, if i didn't have two or three girls to help me, i would pretty much be lost and i wouldn't know what the hell i'm doing. >> i think that's the most sincere statement he's made in the entire interview. he's calm now. he's relaxed. his whole demeanor, i think, has changed from the rest of the interview. >> in my whole life i burglarized a grocery store, stole some nickels and dimes, busted open a stamp machine, stole a few automobiles, and cashed a couple checks. i'm a petty car thief. i've been with prostitutes and bums and winos all my life. the street is my world. i don't pretend to go uptown and be anything fancy. i can, but i find more real in

the world that i'm in than i do the tinsel, and the real world is the one i have to deal with every day. believe me, if i started murdering people, there would be none of you left. >> the final threat. >> believe me, if i started murdering people there'd be none of you left. >> there'd be none of you left. >> hmm. >> and just a few minutes ago, he said i never hurt anybody, i've never been successful, i can barely get through the day. i need help to get to the bathroom and now he comes across with the ultimate i'm going to kill everyone threat. or to let you think that. >> and my children are coming. i told you 20 years ago. i told a judge, can't you see what you're doing here? he didn't care. nobody cared. only a handful of children cared. they cared enough to give their all. >> he's off on the map in every imaginable way here.

>> yes. he has his drum that he beats. he has his ongoing theme. but his repertoire actually isn't all that big. it's the environment, using it as a shield, the i'm not so bad, i'm very, very bad. the, i don't feel guilty because i've never done anything wrong. the, i should have killed 400. >> at the base of it seems to be a very serious persecution complex. i wasn't chosen, i should have been chosen. or something to that effect. >> i didn't have a chance. i'm so talented. i'm so -- why can't other people see it? >> when we come back -- >> the bottom line is this, you guys are going to have to take responsibility for some of this yourself. take it off of me, put it where it belongs. >> could manson ever be released?

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after almost four decades behind bars, charles manson is no longer considered a cult leader.

much less the most dangerous man alive. he's just california state prison inmate b33920. manson has been denied parole 11 times. opportunity 12 is slated for 2012. sometime around his 77th birthday. a lot of people worry every time he comes up for parole, what if he gets out? now, the likelihood seems slim, but what if he did get out? >> i agree with you the likelihood is very slim that he would get out. however, i don't see charles manson as the most dangerous man in the world, as he's been called. but i don't see him as a harmless man by any means. there's no reason to believe that his belief, which i believe borders on, if not outright is a delusion, is ever going to change. that delusion, that it's -- society stinks and needs to be punished, will probably die an

hour after he does. >> murderer, that's the damnedest thing in the world, murderer. when you go to the abortion clinics, is that murder? when you take a man's life a day at a time in a cage, do you feel guilty about that? all these kids you got locked up in these cages over here, do you feel guilty about it? do you feel guilty? do you feel like your money's got blood on it? when you take your news media and you lead a whole wave of children into gang busters and you lead them into rambos and combats and they all go off, and they go off in some crazy, let me take you down the strawberry fields. bottom line is this. you guys are going to have to take responsibility for some of this yourself. take it off of me and put it where it belongs. make sense? you'd agree with anything anyway.

so would i. so here you come, you want to pick on the murderer, the devil and the hippie cult leader and a no-good guy, you dig? i'm in the world of a 5-year-old. i go in the visiting room and all the kids run over, so they won't let me in the visiting room because all the kids come over to play. and they get up in my lap. a little 5-year-old will get up in my lap and say, i'm charlie manson, give me your money. he takes their money away from them and he laughs. he's only 5, but that would make me a bad guy because you would say i was influencing him. but how about him? is he influencing me? i tell you what it boils down to. i never grew up. everybody else grew up. and i didn't grow up. i'm still the little kid and i don't read too well and i don't write too well and i don't want to learn. i don't want to learn. i'm satisfied with being stupid. but i still, no matter how far i go, i can't get away from politics.

i can go to death valley and dig a hole and hide in it, and i can't get away from politics. there's only one way i can be free. i got to move the world. now, is that insane? now back to solitary confinement. when you all leave, do you feel guilty that a man spent 18 years in solitary confinement in the united states of america? why don't you go ask the russians if you can help them with your human rights. and here's another thing i like to flash on you guys. all you johnny carsons and all you comedians who get up and tell jokes about charlie manson, what would you do if i was in the same room with you?

would you tell jokes about me then? i would like to go on the johnny carson show, you know? you know what this beard covers up, johnny? you know what this beard covers? a hard [ bleep ]. now, that's not moral. and when you go to church, and when you go to church, you ask the nuns if they won't go out and deal a little bit of ass to save some of them starving children. you want this wedding ring i got with all these "xs" on them? >> strange man. >> he employs a profound

disconnect between being involved in the murders of at least nine people and deserving to be in prison. >> so watching a tape like this, watching this particular tape, what do you take away from it? >> i think what i'm seeing here, it makes me sad. this is what happens when we don't take care of our children. warm, happy, nurturing families do not produce people that grow up and kill other people for fun or revenge. the probation and parole agencies need to be more mindful how they treat and what they do with preadolescent and adolescent juvenile offenders. >> there's a notion a lot of people have that a person is born bad, that charlie manson must have been born bad. >> i think there probably occasionally is a bad seed and that despite good nurturing and good parental love and supervision, a bad person can come from that. but the vast majority of men that became serial killers came

from very dysfunctional families and were victims of physical and mental abuse and sometimes sexual abuse at the hands of their own mother. >> so the lesson is go back to the beginning and -- >> treat your children well. >> thank you for being with us. >> you're welcome.