know. bob kerry gets the last word. nebraska and america will be lucky if we get him back in the senate. it all depends on ohio -- again. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris mathews. leading off tonight, people running for president. romney knows the business stuff. did the guy ever take an american history course? did he ever learn anything to say about this country if you just won a presidential primary? you're running for president of the united states, mr. romney, not for national consultant. and, yo, rick, senator santorum, you got the stump speech down. it's really solid. all economics now, real stuff. just lose that throw-up line about jack kennedy for good.

anyway, on to ohio for both of them and no excuses now. they've both got to win. if neither santorum nor romney was the big winner last night, who was? you could say president obama, whose standing in both states has risen while the gop candidates were trashing each other. plus, what are we to make of olympia snowe's decision to quit the united states senate? yes, it's becoming more toxic. from a purely strategic point of view, it means the democrats have a better chance of keeping control of that body. did the republicans not learn their lesson from the contraception fallout or just not care? the gop is pushing an amendment now coming up this week on the senate floor that would allow all employers, not just religious organizations, to opt out of health care coverage on religious or moral grounds. finally, by the way, let me finish with mitt romney's vision problem. we start with last night and santorum's blown opportunity. troy black supports mitt romney for president and tony perkins is with the family research council. the big question, gentlemen, is

this -- did your guy -- put it this way. santorum was within striking distance, above in the polls, winning the polls. did he boot it away or is romney fundamentally a stronger candidate and will eventually prove that? what happened this week in michigan? was it a one-time-only mistake by santorum talking about stuff he shouldn't have been talking about like throwing up over kennedy's 50-year-old speech and talking about things that weren't about job creation, or was it romney's the stronger and better candidate? you both have your chance. start with the interesting thing. was it just a bad week for rick santorum or is he too loosey-goosey to run for president? >> i think he admitted getting off on the jfk speech was a distraction. >> lost the catholic vote. my crowd went the other way. he's catholic, which is a problem. >> got off the central message of both the economy and the family and those issues. but, look, he got half the delegates out of michigan. we're talking about mitt romney, his home state. he outspent santorum 6-1.

it shows he's not a very strong candidate. i think this is far from over because on super tuesday you have a lot of southern states -- >> are you with him close enough to know he's -- i thought his speech last night was very good. let's take a look at what romney said last night and what santorum said. start with romney who won the most popular votes by three points. >> i stand ready to lead our party to victory and our nation back to prosperity. this is a critical time in america, our time for choosing, and this time we have to get the choice right. i said it before, and i firmly believe it, that this campaign is about saving the soul of america. >> rick santorum last night asked what he sees as the big questions facing the country. a fundamental speech. let's watch. >> it goes down to the very nature of who we are as americans. are we a country that believes in big government?

do we believe in the smart and elite in this country to manage us? or do you believe in free people and a free economy and building a great america from the bottom up? what do you say? >> you know, that was kind of a jimmy stewart "mr. smith goes to washington" speech last night from santorum, very effective. not quite as effective as the speech after winning ohio. iowa, rather. but it was good. your guy, is he running for national consultant? there was nothing about american history, nothing about vision, nothing about what unites us as people. all of this, i've got a business plan here and if you invest in me i'll cut your death tax and your alternative income tax and i'll cut down your rates if you invest in me. was a business proposition, wasn't it? >> it had some -- >> like what? >> the most important thing was he gave you a preview of the general election. he said more jobs, less debt, smaller government. as opposed to president obama, who's giving you fewer jobs, more debt, and bigger government. >> how is he cutting the debt? i didn't hear it in his speech.

i heard more tax cuts. where is the speech -- >> go back -- >> no debt reduction in that speech. >> he's presented plans for entitlement reform, social security, medicare, and he's promised to cut spending on domestic programs. i'll go back and add that up. >> i thought he attacked president obama for cutting defense spending. >> chris, mitt romney had a huge day yesterday. don't forget arizona. a landslide. 29 delegates. mitt romney got 78% of the delegates selected yesterday. he's now won 7 of the 12 contests that we've held. 40% -- >> but he won by ten points last time, and it's his native state. you think winning your native state by three points is a big win? >> he got the momentum for win three events in one week. he targeted michigan, stayed there, campaigned and almost defeated romney and michigan but he didn't in the end. there are 20 events in march. rick santorum can't target each and campaign heavily in each. romney has an organization in each. romney will have a very good march and continue to be the front-runner. >> that's back to the big

question. does romney have so much strength in terms of ground organization, infrastructure, and money that your guy, santorum, can't match if he has a good week coming up? >> well, first of all, i have not endorsed a candidate so it's not necessarily my candidate. rick santorum more aligns with our issues at the family research council. you get into the southern states, it will become more difficult for mitt romney. if you think -- he's running a general election in a primary. primary voters, 44% of those, tend to be evangelical social conservatives. that's why i think he hasn't locked this up, hasn't convinced them he's their guy that will represent them -- >> let's look at the map right now. good point. you can see the map. 11 states will vote on super tuesday next week accounting for more than 400 delegates. the northwest, alaska, idaho, wyoming out in the west, north dakota as well, oklahoma down there, tennessee down there, ohio up in the northeast, and georgia down there, virginia down there, massachusetts up there, vermont up there. a mixed bag. if you look at the bottom there, do you think your candidate will

do well in the south? he never did before. last time around he got booted in the south. >> florida is a southern state. he did pretty well there. >> not in the southern part of the state. he lost the southern part of the state. >> every one of those states is proportional. all four of the candidates might win at least one state on super tuesday. even ron paul showed in a couple states, especially alaska. what i will predict is this, that next tuesday, ten states, romney will get more delegates out of that day -- >> that's the way you count it. let's talk about the big states. >> and widen his already large lead of delegates. >> suppose it goes like this. we do politics here. take a look. newt wins georgia, okay? there's a close fight for tennessee. nobody really walks away with it. ohio goes to santorum. virginia, because nobody else is running there, goes to romney. vermont goes to romney. but you've got all kinds of action for oklahoma, north dakota, idaho. idaho is lds. he could win there. >> he has a good chance.

>> the mormon support there. >> i firmly predict he'll win massachusetts. and ohio is going to be very close. santorum -- >> he's admitting to being governor of massachusetts now. finally. finally running on his record in massachusetts. >> i don't think he's got a problem in massachusetts. ohio will be close. santorum started this week ahead and it will be a close race. romney may well win. let me tell you something else. rick santorum made a huge mistake by playing ball with the obama campaign in a cynical -- >> how did he do that? >> to get liberal democrats to come into the republican primary and cast malicious crossover votes. and it worked. >> they were malicious. how do you know a lot of those people didn't just prefer santorum to romney? >> because -- >> then it's not malicious. >> he's a weaker opponent. >> that's what your candidate said he did in massachusetts. >> a competitive network did dozens of interviews with these guys and they were union organizers and -- >> your candidate is calling that a dirty trick. how can it be a dirty trick if

mitt romney did the same thing when he vote forward paul tsongas in '92? >> i wasn't there. >> he was there and said he did it. is that a dirty trick? >> i don't remember him saying he did it because he thought tsongas was the weaker opponent. >> he did say that. is that a dirty trick? if he did say that, charlie, if he said, which we can prove, he did it in order to pick a weaker candidate on the democratic side rather than clinton, is that a dirty trick? >> he did not pay for telephone calls to turn out democrats -- >> i thought it was the principle of the other party. you're caught here, charlie, in a conflict. you're caught in calling your candidate a dirty trickster. >> my candidate cast one vote privately. rick santorum paid for phone banks to turn out liberal democrats to cast -- >> he only had one vote, but he was playing dirty tricks. let's look at the quinnipiac poll. fascinating.

in ohio, santorum up 36% to 29%. that is a great race. he better hold it. all three of us agree. if santorum can't hold his lead in ohio, he's in big trouble. >> he's already in big trouble. it would be nice for romney to win ohio. >> let's look at the national gallup poll. it has your candidate ahead, romney, 33% to 25%, gingrich 16%. talk about gingrich. he's not represented in any matter. is he still a candidate that matters or just a spoiler? >> he says if he doesn't win his home state of georgia that he's going to get out. if he keeps his word and gets out and you add up the numbers -- >> of course he's going to carry georgia. >> i don't know. >> he owns the doughnut -- >> i expect him to carry georgia and expect him to continue on for a long time. he's entitled to. been a lot of surprises -- >> you love him there. >> do the math. >> how is that bromance going with your guy, the other guy, ron paul? you like him? >> i've always liked ron paul. >> no one lays a glove on your guy. that's a sweet relationship. >> we have a very civil campaign. we like everybody.

>> dirty trickster. supporting a dirty trick ster. >> one vote versus 50,000. >> not small potatoes here. we count morality as very important. don't we, tony. >> that's right. >> coming up, the big winner so far in the republican race may well be -- i think you can look at the numbers. who is in and who is out. the president looks like he's gained in all of this mess. this mishigoss. anyway, santorum and romney trashing each other. the president's standing keeps going up. is this good that the republicans keep doing this thing? or should the democrats keep it going? you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. [ male announcer ] that. right there -- reminds you why you fell in love with her in the first place. and why you still feel the same. but your erectile dysfunction -- that could be a question of blood flow. cialis for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently or urgently.

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welcome back. the headlines out of last night read "mitt romney averts a disaster," hard to claim you've had a major victory. the republican front-runner has survived but is a weakened candidate from february. who was the big winner in february? maybe it was the president himself, president obama, who didn't run for anything this month. as republican opponents were shooting themselves in their feet with independent voters and women over the auto industry bailouts which they opposed and contraception, which they oppose, the president has seen his numbers rise among these groups and is the strong favorite to win in michigan. even arizona is in play according to the latest polls out there. so how is the dynamic of the race shifting since the start of february?

well, michael hirsch is the chief correspondent for "national journal," and salon's joan walsh is an analyst. i don't want to feed more ammo. i didn't mean to say these two candidates are necessarily against contraception and the bailout but they are partisanwise on the wrong side of this baby. >> they certainly are. and, you know, they're wiggling around, but they clearly want to defund planned parenthood. they're clearly making these culture war issues key to the campaign. you know, you really understand why they're doing it, chris, because you look at what happened last night and they're losing on the economic arguments. i mean, you asked who the winner was. i would say the winner yesterday was whoever scheduled that speech for president obama on the day of the michigan primary. >> it was a good speech. >> it was a beautiful speech. it was a wonderful speech. his heart was in it. he talked about caring about people. >> well, let's get right to the consultant's report we got from romney last night. we're talking about two very different kinds of speech.

one had music and lyrcism and history and wonderment and happiness. the other was dead as a door nail. >> right. >> take a look at the two different speeches from yesterday. first of all, mitt romney after his victory in michigan, he focused on the president and his speech. let's watch mitt romney first. >> when he's not spending our money or infringing on our rights, he's busy running for re-election. today we're $15 trillion in debt and real unemployment stands at 15%. you've heard that old saying about i need a vacation from my vacation? well, we need to have a recovery from this so-called recovery. >> earlier in the day the president gave what joan mentioned was a rousing speech to the uaw in washington, strongly defending his position to rescue the auto industry, which didn't need much defense, given the fact it's been rescued. let's watch. >> you know why i knew this

rescue would succeed? you want to know? it wasn't because of anything the government did. it wasn't just because of anything management did. it was because i believed in you! i placed my bet on the american worker. and i'll make that bet any day of the week. the recovery is speeding up. now is the time to keep our foot on the gas, not put on the brakes. and i'm not going to settle for a country where just a few who do really well and everybody else is struggling to get by. >> well, if that wasn't a tour de force, i don't know what it was. it had a little bit of baptist preacher, a little bit of rah-rah and he was on the right side of history. >> it was a remarkable preview of what is almost certain to be the general election, romney getting the nomination but fighting an uphill battle. the difference in style and tone as you alluded to, obama almost,

you know, in the tradition of the happy warrior, confident, yet he still has that style and charisma. he's not as popular among his base after a few years as president, but he still got the campaign style people so admired in 2008. and romney, again, you know, hesitant even in victory, you know, stepping all over his laugh lines and just -- he's got a long way to go to defeat this president. >> joan, how about the real musical back on broadway called "how to succeed in business without really trying"? the main song is "i believe in you." when i was in high school i saw that. or maybe college. i forgot when i saw the musical. but there he is giving credit to the workers, men and women, not to himself. >> it could be a campaign slogan. it really could because i think the contrast is that the president has come out being so optimistic, really talking about, i believe in you and i believe in this country. and for the last few months, chris, it's felt like the republican message is i don't believe in you and i don't believe in this country, i don't believe in a land where people can climb.

i don't believe in a land where we have enough resources to create the engines of prosperity that created the middle class. the middle class wasn't just born here. we created it. the president is using that language of opportunity and optimism and they've given it up. they're all fear and negativity. >> let's listen to something or read something i've got in front of me from john mccain, a republican, who ran last time against this president. here he is talking about the primary process and what harm it's done to his party's eventual nominee. he told the "boston herald" this week, a republican nsp "this is like watching a greek tragedy. it's the negative campaigning and the increasingly personal attacks. it should have stopped long ago. any utility from the debates has been exhausted. and now it's just exchanging cheap shots and personal shots followed by super pac attacks." now, that's pure john mccain. >> yeah. >> he hates big money in politics, hates the pacs, the super pacs, and doesn't like this kind of talk.

>> well, and this coming from a guy who, if anything, was even more mistrusted by the republican base when he was at this point in the -- >> he was a reformer. >> well, maverick. >> feingold is on tonight. we're having them both on. >> it says a lot that mccain would say that. look, large chunks have been taken out of romney's hide. if he does become the nominee, he starts off weaker because of these really intense unprecedentedly negative attacks on him and the extent to which all of this has moved him further to the right on any number of issues. >> yes. look at the hispanic vote. we mentioned women. >> right. >> joan, talk about that. he's gone so far with this self-deportation thing he created. you just gave a slogan to the president, which i believe they should listen. "i believe in you." it's got to be one of the best i've ever heard. that may be better than hope. when you start talking about self-deportation of grandma who may have been here 30 years and

learned english and got you through college. let's kick her out of the country. i'm sorry, tell her to leave on her own bus ticket, what are we talking about here? >> making the climate so horrible for immigrants they will leave. there's a whole theory around it that's quite right wing. it's not a funny word. it's an actual policy and program where, you know, they're passing all these laws to make people's lives miserable. and they're not going after the latino vote. they really are -- i mean it is their last stand. it's like they're writing off women, writing off latinos, wrilting off asians and young people. it's the party of old white men. >> i'm not sure if romney believes a word of it. >> no. >> we don't know. maybe we should have lie-detector tests for these politicians. wouldn't that be interesting? michael hirch, thanks. thank you, joan, as always. up next, is mitt romney's bromance with ron paul on the rocks? a bromance is between two guys who seem to be working on the same team.

back to "hardball" for the sideshow. a walk down memory lane. while romney and santorum battled it out in michigan and arizona this week, newt gingrich had moved on to his home state of georgia where he might have an advantage over his rivals come super tuesday next week. in a speech he gave yesterday, newt wasn't long before the candidate was gushing about those georgia roots of his, and i mean roots. here's one of the stories he recalled about him and a fellow college professor. let's listen. >> a really big tree that was dying. and it was angled towards his house. how hard can it be to cut down a tree? what we're going to do is tie a rope about 15 feet up.

and then we're going to cut the tree till it's almost ready to break, and then we're going to pull the tree in the direction we want it to fall. now, remember, i said, it was leaning towards the house. we're standing there. we're pulling. we suddenly realize that we're being pulled. the top of it hit the roof of the house. it's a concussion effect. dropped the plaster in the master bedroom on the bed. and the last thing we saw of kip that night was him running up the street with his wife chasing him with a broom. >> i guess mitt romney is starting to trend with all that talk about trees in michigan being the perfect height. anyway, next up -- what a strange story to tell even for newt. up next, no exceptions. after taking a look back at the 2011 republican debates we've seen so far, think progress reported that ron paul has leveled a tax on all his rivals except for mitt romney but ron paul has a new ad out now that could quash talk of a romney/paul bromance.

let's take a look. >> one is a serial hypocrite. another a counterfeit conservative. finally, a flip-flopper who's been on all sides. supported t.a.r.p. bailouts and provided the blueprint for obama care. three men, one vision. >> wow. there's also speculation out there of whatever word that ron paul has been laying off romney, not hitting him hard, to somehow pave the way for his son senator rand paul of kentucky to be in the front-runner's good graces down the road. here's the candidate himself taking on that question in an interview last night. >> i have my job, and he has his job. and that just doesn't seem to be appropriate. the last thing i've done is talk to mitt romney. besides, he wouldn't talk to me about that. it's supposedly been promoted by somebody who's superinvolved in conspiracy theories. that's santorum's doing that. my son can take care of himself. >> oh, god.

every man for himself, i guess, including father and son in this case. up next, republicans are pushing an amendment out there that would allow all employers and employees, not just religious ones, to opt out of health care coverage on religious or moral grounds. if you say you have moral grounds. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. introducing the perfect situp. invented by the u.s. navy seal who brought you the perfect pushup, the perfect situp re-invents the situp by combining the upper ab crunch with the lower ab leg lift. then the perfect situp adds an audible coach. you'll hear a click when you've done the exercise correctly. you hear it and you'll feel it. it's this one-two punch that gets you better faster results. traditional situps and crunches are hard to do, and only effectively work half your abs -- the upper half. but the perfect situp targets and tones the upper abs and the lower abs. the secret is the combination of perfect position and resistance. with the addition of the patent pending perfect situp leg blades you'll activate all your abs. the inner obliques, the outer obliques,

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when will my colleagues understand this very nondebatable fact? that the decision of whether a woman takes one medicine or another or what type of health care she should have access to should not be the decision of her boss. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's new york senator kirsten gillibrand previewing the fight to come tomorrow when the senate votes on legislation sponsored by missouri republican roy blunt that would let anyone, employee or employer, opt out of pars of the health care plan inconsistent with their religious beliefs or their own moral convictions. this gets to the heart of the fight over whether free contraception coverage should be required in the health care law.

new york senator charles schumer opposes the legislation to basically give people the opt out. why do you oppose this? explain why you do. senator. >> well, let me say this, chris, that this legislation would allow any employer to decide what parts of health care he wanted to provide or she wanted to provide and what parts she or he didn't. and that is just totally against what we've had all along. it is an overly broad amendment. the president has come up with a fair compromise on contraception, which doesn't impinge on people's religious beliefs but lets the woman decide whether she wants contraception, not her boss. that makes eminent sense. >> i guess the question about this is the politics of it, senator schumer. do you believe this is a winner? not that you want to be crude about it but this is something the democrats could be happy to run on? >> well, look. we think that the republican party has made a huge mistake. this issue has such force that

it forced their leading presidential candidate to first say he was against the blunt amendment and then retract it because i'm sure he got a lot of pressure and say he's for it. this is so far over, the overwhelming majority of not just democrats but of independents are on our side on this issue. they understand that women have the right to decide what they want in their health care, not their employer who claims a religious conviction. and, yes, i think they ought to do what they did on the payroll tax cut. realize their mistake. realize they are so far over to the right that they're losing the middle and back off. that's i think what romney tried to do, but then he got pressure and had to first be against it before he was for it. >> the latest word, we'll clarify it perhaps in the next couple minutes, but here it is, romney talking about it now. >> -- with banning or allowing employers to ban providing female contraception.

have you taken a position on it? he said he's for that. we'll talk about personhood in a second. he's for that. have you taken a position? >> i'm not for the bill, but the idea of presidential candidates getting into questions about contraception within a relationship between a man and a woman, a husband and wife, i'm not going there. >> well, now we're getting more recent reports saying he's for it, for the blunt amendment. that's already out of date. he's changed his mind on that baby already. senator schumer. >> exactly. exactly. he had to flip-flop. i think his original instinct when he was asked the question was correct. at most it would resonate with most american people, that it shouldn't be the congress here deciding or empowering an employer to decide whether a woman gets contraception. and make no mistake about it. this amendment, if it passes, will, if the employer so chooses, ban contraception for millions of american women. that's going back to the 19th century.

and it's fueled by a hardcore belief of a few, and unfortunately too many republicans are afraid to resist it. >> let's take a look at what scott brown said about this. he's a republican up in massachusetts. he's in a radio interview trying to cite ted kennedy's position on this in the past. >> like ted kennedy before me, i support a conscience exemption in health care for catholics and other people of faith. i believe it's possible to provide people with access to the health care they want while at the same time protecting the rights of americans to follow their religious beliefs. for me, the conscience exemption is a matter of fundamental fairness. >> patrick kennedy, obviously the son of the late senator ted kennedy, put out a statement subsequent to that saying my father would have never supported this extreme legislation. just to clarify what scott brown said there, it doesn't just give a religious exemption but a moral exemption. anybody regardless of affiliation can say i don't really believe in that.

>> correct. >> then you don't have it for your employees. they are all out to lunch. >> exactly. >> no birth control protection. >> exactly. it goes beyond contraception. the motivation, i think, was contraception. and we're happy to debate that issue. but the legislation goes so far, if an employer says i don't believe in vaccination, you can't get insurance for a vaccination. it's way beyond contraception. >> in fact, you could say vaccination is dangerous, therefore, it's a moral issue. you're right. it's all across the board. senator schumer, thanks for coming on. earlier today, andrea mitchell asked maine senator olympia snowe who is retiring at the end of this term whether she supports this blunt amendment to give this opt-out to any employer or employee based on any kind of moral concern. here's what she said, senator snowe. >> it's interesting we're having the whole debate on contraception and, you know, what should constitute coverage and what kind of role does the federal government play because

i was involved in this issue more than a decade ago, and i did support a conscience clause and i was drafting one in the process. we never got to consider the legislation. so i do think it's important. i think with respect to the blunt amendment, i think it's much broader than i could support. >> let's go to north dakota senator john hovin, a co-sponsor of the blunt amendment. are you concerned this is so vague that any employer could say i don't like birth control. i don't like inoculation. i'm going to exempt it from my coverage for all my employees? >> that's not the case. this is to give someone or an organization that truly has a concern from a religious standpoint the ability to not have to provide contraceptives or sterilization against their religious beliefs. that's what it does. >> why does it say religious or moral? why does it throw in -- which

could be completely secular morality. it could be a humanist point of view. is that okay with you as an opportunity to opt out on this? >> it's religious or moral beliefs, but they're going to have to demonstrate that under reasonable criteria. back to the point on contraception, this is not about not having contraception available to women that want it. that's certainly there. they can either get a rider on the policy to provide it or they can certainly get it from county social services if their income situation is a concern. it's not a contraception issue but a religious freedom issue. >> if a woman is working for a company, say, domino's pizza or comcast or general motors, would like to have insurance coverage which includes birth control free, without a co-pay, and her boss says no because he says i'm against that morally, you think that's okay?

because the boss says so. >> again, there's got to be reasonable criteria, and that's exactly what we're talking about. furthermore, it's not about access to contraception. that's getting confusing. that's not the case, chris. >> but suppose the boss of a company is catholic and most of the employees are protestant, for example, or nonchurchgoers. you're saying that boss has the right to call the shots on whether birth control is covered by the insurance? you're saying that? that's what this bill does. >> if it goes against religious or moral beliefs -- >> by that boss. >> they can't be required by the government to provide it. the employees have the option either to acquire a rider or get it from another source. so, again, the effort by those opposed to the legislation, they want to make it about contraception. that's really not what the issue is. it's about religious freedom. you could extend this argument to many other things, not just contraception. >> inoculation. you know what you're talking about, senator.

thank you so much. please come back on the show. senator john hovin. up next, olympia snowe is leaving the united states senate at the end of this term. she says the congress has gotten too toxic. don't you agree? now democrats have a much better chance in this partisan sense of winning a senate seat. we'll be joined by former wisconsin senator russ feingold, a real reformer. [ male announcer ] what if an entire car insurance company

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noud. in michigan after last night's vote. romney and santorum each won 15. a tie vote for delegates. so romney's three-point win turns out to be a draw in the delegate count. too bad we didn't know this late last night. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." yesterday maine's moderate republican senator olympia snowe shocked everybody in the republican world by saying she's quitting at the end of this term. after serving 33 years in the u.s. congress, she won't run for

re-election. she was expected to easily win her senate race. she wins by huge majorities all the time. she told andrea mitchell she'd grown frustrated with partisanship on capitol hill. let's listen to senator snowe. >> i've made the decision not to run for re-election in the united states senate and to pursue other opportunities outside the senate so perhaps i can give voice to the frustrations that, you know, exist with the political system here in washington where it's dysfunctional and the political paralysis has overtaken the environment to the detriment of the good of this country. kelly o'donnell joins us right now. boy, does that speak a lot. as a person who covers the hill. i'm not asking you to make a partisan judgment. you never do. but what does it say about the fact that moderates, whether it's bill nelson or ben nelson, rather, from nebraska, a moderate democrat or a moderal republican, doesn't fit anymore.

doesn't like it anymore. >> well, it's interesting. by observation and by hearing members talk about this, something that might not come to mind right away is that the experience of being someone like olympia snowe on capitol hill means you spend a lot of time out on your own island politically speaking. well, republicans would be frustrated with her, democrats would be trying to put a lot of pressure on her, even encouraging her to switch parties, always counting on her as a deciding vote. all of that pressure. so some of the collegiality and the sense of getting things done has probably been very hard for her to have here for a long time now. she's a very reasonable person to talk to. i've spent time with her back in maine in her home state. very popular, as you point out. it was a real stunner. we often use hyperbolic language covering politics. this really shocked senate republicans who were counting on her. >> because she couldn't lose. couldn't lose re-election. >> well, i won't be absolute, but she was expected to win, yes. >> let me ask you about this. this calls for analysis. if you take away -- if you say

there's no fun up on the hill being a moderate democrat or moderate republican, someone close to the center, that seems if they're not even going to like their own people in their party because they're too close to the center, it certainly argues against them liking any kind of compromise across the aisle. >> it's been one of the things we've noticed over time, the sort of space that moderates in both parties occupy keeps shrinking and those who are left have even less coalition to build, making them even more isolated. we're just in a period where it is very, very difficult. when olympia snowe is gone, imagine the pressure on her state colleague susan collins, who often votes in a moderate way, or scott brown, if he wins re-election. he's in a tough fight in massachusetts. ben nelson of nebraska, a democrat on the more moderate side, he's not seeking re-election. it talks about the atmosphere of the mood of getting things done. and olympia snowe is one person who likes to try to get things done and her frustration is

genuine. >> i agree. a lot of these guys are leaving. thank you kelly o'donnell kelly for the expertise. russ feingold, first your reaction to people like snowe quitting. >> chris, good to be talking to you again. she is one of the finest senatorss, a key to getting mccain-feingold passed. there is a person who always worked across party lines where appropriate. co-sponsor amendments with me that had to do with national security or civil liberties. a terrible sign when a person like that, who is reasonable, not an easy mark, a person hard to persuade, but once you got her on your side it was valuable and frankly my book "while america sleeps" is partly about this. you start driving people like that away, willing to work across party lines on international and security and

intelligence issues, we're losing something important for the protection of our country. >> what do you make of the super pacs. you're the classic guy who wants to clean up the business of politics, it's about democracy, the president will go to billion dollar campaign, all this loose money coming in, all coming in in big amounts, soft money, now big super pac money. >> i support the president for reelection, co-chair of the campaign but i made it clear i don't agree with this. i think it's a mistake for the press president to go down the road. he fights for the 99%. when you associate yourself you're undercutting your message. you'll end up with corporate democrats as well as corporate republicans, we saw this before, before mccain and i banned soft money to the parties. you get trade agreements that ship jobs overseas. consolidation of the media and

yes, the deregulation of wall street, this all comes when people end up raising this kind of money and i think it's a disaster for the country and i hope the president moves away from this approach. he doesn't need it. he can win without this unlimited money, people know who he is and know he's doing a good job. >> let me ask you about the democrats and the way they are running, this is a lot of evangelical christians, see the middle east in iconic terms, they don't want details, but almost a biblical fight with them. you have this guy romney who seems like a cerebral fellow making an ultimatum statement, saying if i'm president of the united states, iran won't have a nuclear weapon. if this guy is president they will have a nuclear weapon. this absolutist language, vote for me i'm tougher than the other guy. >> shows he's not serious about doing the job of a president. may be cerebral, why write a book how he claims the president is always apologizing for america.

that is ridiculous. that is not what the president of the united states has been doing. he has taken a serious approach, gotten some of the worst people in the world through military and other actions, but also reached out in a positive way to the arab world in cairo, india, indonesia, what you have is a race where the republican party is basically made a mockery of foreign policy. they mock the president, mock his foreign trips, and my book talks in great length while america sleeps about the sort of sleeping quality that you put the american people and our government in when you don't take these other countries and these situations seriously, there are serious threats out there including al qaeda or al qaeda-like threats in africa. we saw this movie before 9-11. how does this happen that we end up not seeing the signals again and having candidates for president who don't care about it. >> russ, you're a great guy. your book is called "while

america sleeps" our current version. thanks for coming on again. >> thanks, chris. let me finish with mitt romney's vision problem, such as it is. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

let me finish with this, people keep wondering why mitt romney won't say what he would do to cut the debt. his big vision how to attack what he keeps insisting is the country's big problem.

the reason we have not moved with a faster recovery he says. it's quite understandable. it's called arithmetic. if you want to cut the debt, you have to cut spending. big time. if you have to chop off government programs big time. what will he chop off? defense? are you kidding? he attacks obama for shrinking defense spending. chop off federal interest payments on the debt? can't do that it's called default. default is what we're afraid will happen in europe. what do you mean we can't pay what we owe? well, okay, eliminate social security and medicare benefits? can't do that. the government owes that money and nobody will refuse to pay it. nobody. certainly not a republican given that party's record on social security. so what's romney talking about? what is he talking about right now? ear marks, and other mickey mouse stuff. why doesn't he come out with a plan to cut the debt? because he doesn't want to. he's ready to add to the debt. look at him last night.

he went on television after the results to say he wants to eliminate what republicans called the death tax. he wants to get rid of the ault that tiff minimum tax, he wants to bump a 20% across the board for rich people. it's offering us up to the big money people he wants to start ponying up to his campaign. did you notice how he laid out all that right before he read out the name of his website for campaign contributions. get it? it was a business deal. give a few thousand bucks, to get him in office, he will save you millions in taxes. but didn't he say the big problem was the rising debt? last night he went the opposite direction, he pandered to get money to smother his opponents next week. the debt he's worried about his the one his campaign might leave