♪ my question this morning. is it time to leave afghanistan an the three people who hold the future of the republican in their hands. they're not named mitt, nick or newt. march madness makes me smile but for some it's maddening. according to mychal calculation, the republican nomination should only cost $163 million. we know he's got the money. what's the problem? good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. 31 contests and more than nine months into this thing and it comes down to this. dollars and delegates. money and message. on tuesday, with 54 delegates at stake. illinois voters head to the polls for the latest in what has

been a series of race and momentum defining state primari primaries. can mitt romney's money and the advantage he has with the money help him to defend his front-runner status. can rick santorum's message land him another upset? mitt romney's campaign and super pac poured a whopping $3.3 million into illinois to fill the state's airwaves with ads. rick santorum showed up comparatively less armed to the illinois add wars meeting romney's millions with $446,000. between his campaign and the super pac that supports him, he has not nearly as much money as mitt romney has got. but add to santorum's financial capital the capital that he gains from the momentum that he earned with his wins across the south. delivered by voters who are responding to santorum's true conservative message. now, the rebounding economy hasn't allowed romney much traction with his position

that's the economic heavyweight. so he's fallen back on a platform that's solid but considerably less sexy. >> inches us closer to that magic number. >> oh, that magic number. thank you, mitt romney. for that handy segue to allow me to take you back in time to two weeks ago when i told you about that magic number. 1,144. remember? it's the number of delegates it takes for a republican nominee to win the presidential nomination. now, i recall that number very clearly because it is how high i had to count in order to do a little jelly bean delegate demonstration for you just two weeks ago. back to the present. and we're back with those jelly beans again. they're joining me. only this time, the numbers to focus on have dollars signs in front of them. 1,142 of the delegate beans that you just saw met an untimely and

delicious demise. because the nerdland staff needs the sugar rush. i only have two jelly beans with me today. this jelly bean costs $113,000. that's the amount that mitt romney's campaign and super pac have spent on advertising for each of his 423 delegates. but this jelly bean, same shape, same size, it only cost $40,000. that's how much rick santorum has spent on ads per his delegate. $113,000, $40,000. clearly, rick santorum is shopping in the discount delegate clearance aisle. in fact, rick santorum's campaign and super pac together have spent the least amount of dollars of all the remaining candidates running for the republican nomination. it seems to be working. take a look at this poll. in the upcoming illinois primary, mitt romney is in the lead at 35%.

but rick santorum is nipping close at 31%. remember, that's within the poll's 4% margin of error. you would think outspending santorum by 7 to 1 would buy romney a little breathing room. which universe have i woken up in in which the boring rich guy isn't a lock in the republican race? mitt romney has all the ingredients to win, the money, the organization, the staff, the good hair. what he doesn't seem to have, it seems, is the secret ingredients. good old magsed messaging. rick santorum's campaign is nothing if not strong with messaging. it's resonating with the social and religious conservative base. let's be clear, there is little that rick santorum says that i would agree with. but i recognize that there are americans who do agree with him. i appreciate that elections don't automatically go to the highest bidder. joining me now, keith boykin, bet columnist and also a former

white house aide to president clinton and kind enough to stick around after his hosting duties on up. ezra -- thank you both for being here. i want to ask this question about money. shouldn't it be, here we are 2008 was the biggest money year, 2012 it looks like bigger. yit seriously, what's going on in america when you can't buy an election. what is this madness? >> what has happened to the american dream where you can inherit an enormous amount of money, be rich and make money. i think what political scientist wos say that there is a saturation point, an amount of money if people have seen your ads and heard your message. that's true when you're all over tv on every cable newschannel, on the late night shows. there's not much new that mitt romney can tell people about himself. a lot of the money will tell them things about rick santorum,

newt gingrich. mitt romney is not finding -- the money isn't -- is circling its wheels. >> there's a saturation effect and a ceiling effect for mr. romney. he can't get over -- sometimes it's one guy or sometimes two guys taking his other vote. but there's still not a majority of republican voters who want him. keith, when you look at rick santorum and his spending here, does this look like a bargain jelly bean delegate or is there something about how he's spending his money that makes him more effective? >> when you think 40,000 d for a delegate, that's a job for someone. $113,000 is a great job. >> mitt romney. >> the danger for rick santorum, despite the fact his message is communicating, he doesn't have the money to create a good campaign operation. his campaign is suffering. he's not filing full slates of delegate in the key state. this failure, i have to go back to this, this failure of the campaign opposition to research staff to discover that 2009, usa today op-ed where mitt romney

basically endorsed federal healthcare plan based on romney care, it's political malpractice. none of these candidates who are able to discover them. if we had candidate like barack obama and hillary clinton in 2008, they both had tens of millions of dollars they were raising every month and were well-funded, well-organized campaign. if we had that, we might see a real good campaign. but we don't have that. >> that seems the difference. for all the criticisms that came of hillary clinton's campaign, it was well-organized. we have a pie chart of how presidential -- weave a chart because you're here ezra. we have jelly beans and pie today. how presidential expenditures sort of where the money goes. you can look and see there, there's administrative costs, campaign expenses, fundraising, all -- that's sort of how, once you get the big sum of money, how that's spent. you're not buying an individual delegate. but so do i hear you right, that part of what what's happening

here is that the money isn't being spent on what quality opposition research, on appropriate messaging, is it a mismanagement of the money? >> rick santorum got whatever money he has and it's still not that much. he got it late. rick santorum, i think it's an amazing thing about this primary. rick santorum, was of every not mitt romney, the last one to get -- literally, iowa republicans, new hampshire, looked at every single other republican candidate first. gave them a time in the lead and finally like, okay. you're the only one left. everybody else was destroyed by the romney machine. that did a lot for mitt romney. neither -- neither santorum or the republican candidates had time and money to be in the public eye long enough to spend mitt romney down in iowa and new hampshi hampshire. mitt romney's weaknesses are obvious in the ads. they're not apparent in debates.

in the first phase of the republican primary was debate focused. it structurally benefited mitt romney quite a bit and pap erred over some of his weaknesses. he got a candidate that's not that strong but being buoyed by the fact that mitt romney can't seem to close a deal. >> i ran cross-country and track in high school. peaking at the right time is the thing. rick santorum peaked at the right time, toward the end of the race. the problem that mitt romney has is that nobody really likes this guy. not just republicans, but the overall public. i look through real clear politic, the past five years, i found only one poll in the past five years where mitt romney had more than 50% approval -- favorability rating. that's astonishing for a guy who ran the olympics in 2004. he's not popular. >> maybe that's just it. being around forever that in certain ways this may look, not entirely like but some of the

same weaknesses that hillary clinton had in '08. that's the learning can you remember can of problem you suggested to us, ezra. when you've been around a long time, people have calcified opinions about you. they saw you before. what's odd about that is that republicans have typically picked the candidate that lost in the last one. that's what makes him seem inevitable at the beginning of this. yeah, that not romney seems to be beating romney at every point. there's somebody else spending money here, that's president obama. when we look at the impact of super pacs all of this angst and hand wringing about what citizens united was going to do, has the president still sort of created such a war chest at this point that even with super pacs whomever becomes the nominee, most likely romney, will never be able to catch up? >> i think it's likely with super pacs you'll see a raw dollar amount. i'm not sure it will matter. i think that both of these guys and it's fairly likely to be two guys, will have so much money.

president obama will have the richest, best funded election campaign in history and when you add in super pacs, mitt romney will have one funded better than that. they won't have a problem getting the message out and organizing ground games and getting on the ballots. when you look at rick santorum, who with almost no money is contesting all the way to end and look at the war chest president obama is building up, it's hard to say he'll be at a -- >> people are using it th to their advantage. when the poll came out last week, for example, to see obama might lose to obama. they ran that into the ground and used this to fundraise. it's very smart strategy on their part to show show that this race is going to be close. they don't want people to shi it will be eas other

clear i might move to mitt romney. please send money. we're going to go to the president's home state. we'll go to illinois. which is two days away from the primary. stay with us. [ woman ] dear cat, your hair mixes with pollen and dust. i get congested. but now, with zyrtec-d®, i have the proven allergy relief of zyrtec®, plus a powerful decongestant. zyrtec-d® lets me breath freer, so i can love the air. [ male announcer ] zyrtec-d®. behind the pharmacy counter. no prescription needed. gomery and nouncer ] zyrtec-d®. behind the pharmacy counter. abigail higgins had...

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late this week, the chicago tribune endorsed mitt romney for the republican nomination. citing "his demonstrated agent and economic pragmatism at his core." among the reasons for the paper's choice is this idea as the turn around artist economically. joining me from chicago is rick pearson, the chicago tribune chief political reporter. still at the table, keith boykin and ezra klein. i want to start with you, rick. tell us, if looking at anything

that's a game changer in illinois, the beginning of the race, never thought this would be something we're covering. is there something that could change the momentum in this race in the next couple of days? >> melissa, i think the real story in illinois is the question of turnout. as we've seen in other states, such as ohio and michigan where romney has done well in the urban, suburban dynamic versus santorum doing well in the rural dynamic, that's what you're seeing in illinois. the question is, in the chicago metropolitan area where the bulk of the republican votes are cast, there's a lot of voter apathy out there. so what we're seeing right now is really a ground game going on in the other 96 counties outside the chicago metropolitan area, what we call down state. that's where the voters tend to be more conservative. it's really been forcing romney to get out, to down state areas

and once again try to defend themselves as being a conservative. >> rick, thanks so much. i'm going to hold on you for just one second. we lost your shot out of illinois. i need to pause. i'll turn to the folks at the table. rick is setting the table appropriately, which there are different kinds of illinois voters. there are these kind of chicagoland area voters who tend to outvote about 2 to 1 down state voters. it's really the down state voters where rick santorum is going and making his pitch. do you think the composition of the illinois electorate is going to allow santorum a chance to possibly not win this but maybe get the momentum win out of this? >> i think we'll see a pat he were like in other states. santorum does well in the rural areas and not as well in the cities. i think it's going to be a closer race than people are expecting. because i think he's got that momentum still. the polls haven't been exactly accurate in predicting things in the past week or so.

who knows what the polls will tell us. >> ezra, i know you said illinois might be boring in this case, right? what i'm thinking is, when i think about what the illinois republican party has already given us, you know, the choices of the illinois republican party are a large part of the reason that barack obama is president of the united states. it was their choice in part of allen keys as his opponent. >> right. >> in the 2004 senate race that meant that rather than having a truly competitive race in 2004, he was running around the country, got to give the great speech at the dnc convention and the next thing you know he's president of the united states. which means in part that the gop in illinois is a bit of a mess. is this their opportunity to actually kind of come back in and redeem themselves as a state republican party? >> i don't really think so. in part, for this you'll see they don't have any good choices. they can give a small one to

mitt romney and small to rick santorum. i don't see illinois tipping the race in one direction or another. i think we're at an odd slog where i don't think momentum will be a driver of anything much at this point. i think romney is too far ahead in delegates and money. i think the party has decided that rick santorum is not a plausible nominee. there is a period in the '08 election between hillary clinton and barack obama in which obama was a mathematically certain nominee. >> after south carolina. >> obama was mat mat cli was -- but hillary stayed in. the reason was she hoped to prove that obama was not a plausible candidate and the convention would end up being contested and delegates would move to her. that is the best he can hope for. in that scenario, delegates don't move to him. i think they try to find some other white knight candidate. but i don't see a scenario in which a momentum tips in illinois and rick santorum rockets to the nomination.

>> it turned out -- i was one of those, i talked about on the show, was saying get out, senator clinton. you're harming the party. after north carolina, we've got a mathematical certainty of obama winning the nomination. it ended up being great for the party because you had democrats in awful these states where they might not otherwise go. illinois is a place where in the general election, there is not going to be a big ad buy, right? people are going to assume that illinois will go to the president. is this an opportunity for republicans to now -- get attention in that state in a way they haven't previously. >> i think they're going through the motions. it's the next state up -- like you said, they're not going to compete in the fall election. this campaign is so different from 2008 in so many ways. we had two very strong candidates in hillary clinton and barack obama who were very passionately supported by supporters. mitt romney and rick santorum are in totally different spaces. they are not quite as popular, not as organized, except for mitt romney. they're not generating the

enthusiasm, i think, in the public as hillary clinton and barack obama did. so i don't think it's going to inur to their benefit as for barack obama. >> one quick point on that. i looked at the polling in 2008 during that long primary. obama's maximum lead over mccain was in june. it was late into the primary. it was not hurting them. mitt romney lead over barack obama has collapsed since his primary went on. it's had the opposite effect. it's ironic, because they redid the primary schedule because they thought it was good for the democrats but ended up hurting them. i have rick back in illinois. we god yot your feed back. i want to ask you about this illinois republican party sips you're in the state. is this a holding your nose and choosing between the romney and the current not romney or is there any sense that this is a set of possibilities for illinois to kind of come back as a republican party?

>> i think it's going to be very difficult for illinois to come back as a republican state. it's -- obviously, with the president being the home state president, as you all said, illinois will be flyover territory when it comes to the general election. quite frankly, chicago is known as a political atm for campaigns rather than a campaign style. when it comes to illinois republican party, they have a lot of work ahead of them. democrats control illinois politic. they control the governor's office, the state legislature. the democrats drew a brand new map that threatens to reverse the advantage that republicans gained in the 2010 midterms in the congressional delegation and completely turn it upside down in favor of the democrats. while this is a good bit of attention for illinois republicans right now, they still have a lot of work cut out ahead of them. >> rick, stay with us. ezra, stay with us, keith, stay with us. we're going to come right back and determine what is still to be determined in this republican race. thanks for babysitting the kids, brittany.

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your military values. call now for our free guide and tips on planning for your retirement this tax season. welcome back. as we've been discussing the contest is the primary in illinois. polls are showing mitt romney with a narrow lead. the outcome is anything but certain. we have a thing we like to call mhp's things to be determined. i want to go to each guest and ask for one tbd, one continuing that's still to be determined. rick, in chicago, what's your tbd? >> we know mitt romney runs all of these ads but he's being forced to do retail politicking in illinois. if he wins illinois and becomes the nominee, does he think it's tv ad buys for the general election? >> good one. we'll have to press the flesh

and when he does, will it be any good for him? i want to know when will newt gingrich get out of race? we know he's not going to win, he's not picking up delegates. when will he drop out? >> there's something about newt in it that is so good for tv. >> it was fun at first. >> for mitt romney for that matter. keeps a split. >> without newt in -- if all of those go to santorum, that could be a victory. >> what's your tbd? >> who will win, we should mention. the other one is will there be an endorsement rush to mitt romney if he wins again? at what point do republican party try to shut it down by really coming out aggressively. saw a bit with cantore and coburn. a lot of delegates sitting on the sidelines. that could really change the math for santorum. >> at what point is it possible to be the boring guy with all the money and win the republican party? when is the gop going to get itself -- thank you, rick

pearson in chicago and ezra, thanks for joining me at the table after two hours. keith, we'll see you later. thank for sticking around. we'll explore the challenges on the frontlines. a decade long fight may in fact be unwinnable. that's when we come back. all at 150 calories or less, there's definitely a temptations for you. unless you're one of those people who doesn't like delicious stuff. temptations. it's the first jell-o that's just for adults.

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that's logistics. ♪ ♪ clearing customs like that hurry up no time flat that's logistics. ♪ ♪ all new technology ups brings to me, that's logistics. ♪ this week, some very troubling news out of afghanistan once again. less than a month after u.s. soldiers are found burning copies of the koran at baghram air base, one american soldier is suspected of shooting and killing 16 afghan civilians. many of whom were women and children in what appears to be a single-handed assault. we now know the name of the soldier in question. he is staff sergeant robert bales, 38-year-old father of two deployed four times and injured twice in combat. he is currently held at fort

leavenworth, kansas. afghan president karzai has asked the united states to confine its soldiers to bases moving out of afghan villages as quickly as possible as the troop withdrawal timeline presses on. 11 years and five months into this war and the way forward looks murky as ever. with me here to clear the way is retired colonel jack jacobs, our military analyst. barbara vand lynn a clinical psychologist, founder and president of given our, providing free mental health services to our service members and families and in washington, john salts, an iraq war veteran, now the chairman of vote vets.org. thank you all three for being here. this story is obviously gripping america this week and much of the world. i want to start with you colonel, and ask when you heard the story based out of your very

long experience, what were your first ideas about what had likely occurred? >> the first thing that popped into my mind is that the chain of command had failed. you have a large number of people living in closed quarters for a long period of time. they see each other every day all day, day after day. they're almost never apart. and yet, somebody managed to do something which came as a tremendous surprise. the first thing that comes to my mind is that the -- this staff sergeant who worked for a sergeant first class, a lieutenant, a captain, all of whom live together, it should have been determined that he had a problem and my guess is that the investigation will disclose in fact people in the chain of command did know that he had a problem. >> john, salts, i want to go to you on a similar question here. we have a statement that came out yesterday. it is too early to determine what factors may have played into this incident and defense

team looks forward to reviewing the evidence. this is from staff sergeant robert's defense team. lawyer here. let me ask you this. when you heard this and now that we've seen some of the statements, are you in agreement with the colonel, this is likely what happened or are you in your contact with vets regularly, thinking that something else may have occurred? >> well, personally, i was sort devastated by it. i was looking at my blackberry waking up and saw the story. it hurts. you feel for the families, you feel for the soldier. you feel for the unit. you feel for the mission. this is negative on so many levels that we can talk about. any time you have the situation, it hurts. it hurts someone who served proudly in iraq and kosovo. the statements come out of his lawyers, i've talked to some people in background that are close to the investigation that i know who are still in the service and they're saying they can't -- there's not a lot on this guy to say he was in

trouble, that he was a bad soldier as you're starting to see. he'll go to a court-martial of his peers. where was the chain of command, was there alcohol involved in these things. the larger question is what caused him to snap. we haven't seen an american soldier or marine do this. we've had some situations where our troops were under fire and they responded. but this guy sort of went out and found the violence. he will be tried by a court-martial of his peers and there's a tremendous amount of sympathy from people saying, what what's his background, was his friend blown up? this is different because he went and did it. no matter what his attorneys say, the fact that he left the installation on his own is is terrible to defend. >> the initial language out of this, oh, this is a soldier who snapped. we start immediately thinking of mental health issues. obviously, you have a lot of contact with our soldiers and veterans as they're coming back. dos this sound like that to you

or is this a premeditated act as jon was saying, the notion of leaving the base and the kind of methodical nature of these killings that feels like it was something different? >> clearly, in a way it's some of both. meaning that, this was a very irrational man at that time. it's not typical of people with post-traumatic stress. it's not what we see when someone quote-unquote snap. it occurs more in the heat of the moment. this was a planned act. he clearly had in mind. also the very nature of the act tells us this was a very tormented man. what he did was very, very disturbing. >> colonel jacobs, let me ask -- sort of take on this question that so many of us in the u.s., media in the u.s. military as we heard from jon, the initial questions are about this soldier. if you're an afghan civilian, the idea of someone killing 16 civilians and then the first

question being mental health questions around the soldier who did the killing rather than what would have likely been the reaction had an afghan killed 16 americans, the sense that that person was a terrorist or was somehow -- it's like something different based on sort of where we're standing, our assumptions about what kinds much questions to even ask. >> i'm a fairly narrow minded person. for me, there is no difference. when somebody does something wrong, almost all the time he knows it's wrong when he did it. and the attempt by the defense to lay the pipes for a defense that says that he was not responsible for his actions, i think, is going to fall. that's all going to fall on deaf ears, because the investigation, in my judgment is going to demonstrate that there was premeditation and all of his problems, notwithstanding, that he knew he was doing the wrong thing when he did it. what's really interesting about the response, to get back to your question about afghans, is

that there were huge riots in which, what, 29 or 30 people, afghans were killed, many more wounded by the riots after the burning. the unintentional burning of korans, no riots. over the slaughtering of 16 afghans, nine of them innocent children. it tells you a great deal about what our relationship is with the afghans. and really what our lack of understanding is about that culture. >> speaking of our relationship with them, jon, i'm going to come to you in a second. but before i do -- john mccain was on the meet the press a few moments ago. john mccain had this to say about the situation in afghanistan. >> sorry. we don't have that. but apparently what mr. mccain was talking about this morning is this idea that actually we have been doing well, that the relationship is progressing. yet, when we look at kind of the timeline since january, a timeline that looks like, again,

these initial pictures of soldiers urinating and then the pictures or the stories around whether the burning of the korans was untension al or not. and now this. are we in a situation where it's going to fall apart, where we don't have the hearts and minds relationships that is exactly what is meant to be our withdrawal strategy? >> i think the major point here, i talked about in at the huffington post. the counter surgery sen approximate plan laid out, there was a timeline on it. when you want to do a counter insurgency strategy, i'm in agreement with colonel jacobs, i went to the academy last year prior to going to iraq, they train them together. we know to shoot less, not more. we know they're not the right way to go. it undermines credibility with the government there. you can't put them in the villages to provide security,

out there with afghan forces, controlling terrain, then we have another element of the mission that trains up the afghan military, then we embed them with u.s. forces. we never had the time to complete that mission under the guidance of what at the time general petraeus and general mcchrystal and the president of the united states laid out. senator mccain is whetted to be bad failed policy. if president karzai doesn't have the political credibility to allow us to stay in the villages, this -- our mission in afghanistan is simple. we're supporting the democratically elected government and their ability to gain control of the countryside in the areas where the insurgents work to broker to leverage response. this cannot happen if president karzai doesn't support us. basically the president has to adjust our mission. >> this is very interesting. president obama was asked about the conditions in afghanistan with british prime minister david cameron. this is what he had to say about

it. >> the general afghan question, why do you think it is that people feel that you talk a good game but they don't buy it? >> it's because we've been there for ten years and people get weary. and they know friends and neighbors who have lost loved ones as a consequence of war. no one wants war. >> no one wants war and we are war weary. when you hear the president using that language of war weary necessary, you hear jon soltz talking about the connection to a failed strategy, is that what is happening with our soldiers, with their families and quite honestly with the afghan people who must be war weary after all this time? >> i think that's right. there is a lot of war weariness. our civilian population is weary as well. going back to what we've been talking, about about this soldier, he may have known what he was doing was wrong. but that doesn't mean he was affected by, this was a fourth

tour, there may have been injuries along the way apparently. reports indicate that there was something traumatic he was part of earlier that day, witnessing another soldier lose a leg. we have to separate out. there are two issues here. one is what happens to men and women in war. this is not what they all typically do. >> right. >> but these things can lead to an irrational act in someone who is prone or vulnerable and to the colonel's point, the chain of command often when we look back, there were signs. we'll know that as this comes out. >> we're going to take a break now and come back and talk more about this question of war weariness and how that impact our ability to address the issue of instability in afghanistan and u.s. afghani relations. stay with us. all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists,

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strategy is crafting a resolution between the governments. on thursday, the taliban forces in afghanistan called off reconciliation talks with u.s. officials accusing the u.s. of changing the parameters of the compromise. the obama administration has made it clear that u.s. troop drawdown in afghanistan requires political stability. so to help us navigate this is retired colonel jack jacobs and barbara dan did he hall and jon soltz, an iraq war veteran. i want to start with leon panetta who basically a made a statement about the war in afghanistan and about war in general. let's take a listen. >> war hell. and these kinds of events take place in war. we see the mistakes that are made, we see the kind of incidents that took place like this. we've experienced them in past

wars and we're obviously experiencing them in this war. but in the end, it can't undermine the main mission we're about and strategy we've put in place. i think it's the right strategy. >> colonel, war is hell. it's possible that strautraumat things happen in the days or years before this incident. i know you have reservations about using the sort of war is hell as a way of explaining an incident like this. >> barbara and i were talking with it in the break. it's a terrible business, war is. we can't fall in the trap of saying that because war is so difficult and people suffer from it, those fighting suffer from it, that it excuses represe reprehensible behavior. i know people on their 11th tours don't murder people. yet, there are plenty of murderers in jail and in the ground who never wore a uniform.

war is certainly a terrible thing, as jon stewart mills said, it's not the worst of things, but it is a terrible thing. we can't fall into the trap. excusing the behavior because somebody had a traumatic -- i had a traumatic brain injury. no matter what my friends and neighbors say, there's nothing particularly wrong with me. [ laughter ] we have to be very careful about cause and effect. >> jon, i want to go to you on the question of -- act like this. impacts the ability of these nations to move forward. i mean, does this sort of single act begin to disrail whatever movement we had towards our drawdown and brokering some kind of agreement with taliban and afghan officials? >> yeah, the taliban is pouring it on. it's not that we've broken rule. we've lost a lot of leverage. the strategy laid out by the president. it's a hard strategy to execute. everyone has to do the right thing.

for instance, in 2003 when i was in baghdad, we would suppress, let's say an ak 47, we'd knock that building down. we try not to do that now. with when someone gets killed, it hurts the american perception and population. when you have marines krur nating on soldiers and a staff sergeant in the army leaving an installation and killing women and children at night, these are things that undermine the -- it's a problem because of the immunity question at the end of the iraq war, whether or not prime minister maliki did the extension. his political coalition wouldn't allow him to do it without them having diplomatic immunity. very similar things are going to happen in the dynamic in afghanistan. we're supporting president karzai. he's saying forces are there to help the population. it undermines his political credibility and he reacts like

he has in the last week. can he politically sustain u.s. forces and a counter terror plan that we always needed there, which is the ability to do the missions like wee did geps bin laden. >> absolutely. let's take a moment and listen to president karzai who is the afghanistan president on exactly this question. >> the afghan investigation team did not receive the cooperation that they expected from the united states. therefore shall these are all questions that we'll be raising and raising very loudly and raising very clearly. this has been going on for too long. you have heard me before. therefore -- therefore, it is by all means the end of the rope here. >> the end of the rope. so we have only a few moments left. i just want to say, i assume that at some point this is going to be over. our soldiers are going to be coming home. >> yes. >> it from your position as a clinical psychologist and works

with veterans, what do we as a community need to be prepared to deal with as they come home? >> that's a great question. what we need to do, first of all, is educate ourselves. even though we know from research that maybe as many as 30, 35% who have experienced combat will experience some mental health issue. that doesn't mean they'll stay in that place and they don't heal. it means that 65% will not. so we need to educate ourselves, we need to give a hand to not a hand out of any crisis. but to think about these are men and women who serve our country, who come home, who will struggle, some will, some won't. as a communities, we need to wrap around them. thank you to all my guests. coming up, the key to the future of the gop after the break. man: 1939 -- my parents ran across an ad for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america.

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earlier, we spoke about

delegate mat and how the numbers are stacking up. republicans would be wise to focus on math of another kind. the kind that make or break their hopes for the presidential election. 20 is the number of voters each church in the african-american coalition of churches hopes to register on sunday, april 8th. that's easter sunday. a day when the pews are packed. 50,000 plus is the estimated number of churches in america with predominantly african-american congregation. one million is the potential number of african-american voters for the 2012 election. 80 is the percent of nonwhites who voted for then senator obama in 2008. can that number be duplicated? arizona may hold the key. 488%, that's how much the latino voter turnout increased in one traditionally republican district in arizona. that propelled democrat daniel to his current city council seat last week last year.

how did he do it? 72,000 people received knocks on their door from the legion of university students he recruited. the obama camp notices and according to reports they september an operative to study the district. will the president ride the wave or wipe out? >> 59% of latino voters disapprove of the administration's handling of the unauthorized immigrants while only 27% approve. 54% of latinos feel they've been hardest hit by the recession that began in 2007. a recent poll shows that the president may have nothing to worry about. 73% of latino voters approve of president obama's performance and the number that should be scaring republicans, 14% of the latino vote is the most that the poll shows any republican would get in a head to head matchup with the president. which brings me to what might be the most number of all. three. three politicians who the future

of the gop may rest on o. nevada governor, brian sandoval, new mexico governor, susanna martinez and florida senator, marco rubio. have the republicans salivating as potential running mates for the tbd nominee. and to pull the vote away from president obama. how will the numbers add up in the 2012 presidential election? we'll do the math when we return. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. let me get that door for you...

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the heritage foundation. thank you for joining me at the table. i feel like this is a conversation that is beginning to get under way. driven in part by demographic shift in the american population but also driven by what feels like such a shift in the republican party, away from president george w. bush's which was a big tent gop and feels increasingly like a tiny, tiny pup tent that only a few people are allowed to be in. what difference are latino voters going to make and what makes a difference to them? >> i think they're going to make a huge difference. they're the fastest growing demographic among the voting block as you suggested. immigration is a very important issue to them. you are right to point out that george bush understood them and then pete wilson of california who drove an anti-immigrant proposition. he welcomed the president of

mexico and tried to get immigration reform done. he was respectful. he won 40-plus percent of the latino vote. john mccain dropped considerably. he only won 31%. >> it was kind of odd. mccain traditionally had, particularly as an arizona senator, he had maybe not perfect relationship but one that was kind of clear. it was complex. >> he tried. but he walked back from his own immigration bill. he said i wouldn't vote for my own immigration bill. that came out in the general election he lost big time. mitt romney, with latino voters is polling at 14%. less than half of what john mccain had. he's got a big problem. >> it's sad for romney, but it feels disastrous for the republican party. >> exactly. >> i would say that -- yes. it's significant in a number of key western states, nevada, new

mexico, california obviously, texas. i would take issue with what you just said about conservatives, though. i mean, i've seen the tea party up close. i don't speak for the republican party, but the tea party really was instrumental in selecting, in supporting marco rubio. they were equally instrumental in supporting susanna martinez, sandoval and labrador. very conservative hispanics elected in the 2010 election. i find myself in a lot of tea party events. this really has been an unfortunate misportrayal of the tea party. i've never seen what i've seen on tv. as i said, when the establishment of the republican party had picked charlie christ, it was a tea party in florida said no, no, rubio is our guy. we're going to really support him. they threw a lot of resources

and support behind him. especially raul and labrador and jose con seek owe in texas, sorry. not in texas. i think it's really early still in 2012 to be able to tell how once a republican gets elected, how he will fare. having said that, the early signs of the polling i've seen shows that president obama is maintaining the support he has. >> i think this goes to an important question about what would be the things that draw latino voters. you know, i named in the segment before some folks who are potential running mates. your point about elected official who is are latino, who are in the republican party, often some of them quite socially conservative. but the question is whether or not simply ayala continue owe name and face on a ballot is enough to draw a vote. i don't think, for example that allen keys on a democratic ballot would brio owe or

republican ballot would take a lot of -- >> i think that's an old strategy. nowadays latinos do not vote for ethnicity. they vote policy. especially with all the restrictive laws and the immigration. latinos and the voters with paying more attention than ever before. when they look at marco rubio, for the latino mainstream, he has nothing in common with us other than his last name. he supports the arizona type laws, he's against the dream act. he doesn't want the affordable healthcare act. he's really not on our side of any of those issues. i think that matters a lot to people more nowadays to latino voters than just the fact that he's quote-unquote one of us. recent poll that showed nationally, he's very popular in florida. i think 54% of latinos have never heard of him. he's not coming out with great name recognition. >> this is part of this conversation that we're now just

going have. but the very notion of latino as a voting act -- latinos have always been much more likely to split vote and it's as much about country of origin and the state where people are as it is about latino identity. >> right. >> we're increasingly seeing, i wanted to look at the turnout rates and the numbers of latino voters who have been increasingly showing up in the democratic party. >> yes. >> and this kind of change in latino voter turnout of almost 3 percentage points from '04 to '08. we're expecting that keep happening. >> expect two million more in the general election this year. wee saw the biggest turnout in latino vote in 2010. in mid terms. record breaking. why are they turning out? my family is from south america, we care about the same issues as everybody else does. >> the economy, jobs. >> the economy, jobs,

healthcare. but the way i feel that my family is being sneered at, the shrill voice that i hear being a employed to latinos, caused my family to cancel my vacation to arizona. my mother cried when he was confirmed. soto mayor is someone mitt romney didn't vote for. arizona law, the gentleman i can't law is something supported by mitt romney and by marco rubio. it doesn't create a distance that is very difficult to overcome. >> creates a distance that's so hard to overcome because immigration is not the number one issue for latinos. i know you love numbers. 62% of latinos personally know someone who is undocumented. that's a personal emotional connection they feel to a friend, neighbor, co-worker or even a relative. when the debate is heated and ugly, it's hard to change people's minds on an emotional

level. that's the huge challenge for the republicans. >> it feels like it undermines what could be a republican strategy about social conservatism. >> let me say -- let me -- let me correct myself. not canseco. hispanics is a misnomer. we have a large mexican-american component in america than port rick ans and cubans. central americans are large also. any marketer that wants to talk to the people has to understand where they come from. they can't make the mistake of one labeled hispanic. having said that, i think raul is also right that immigration is really not number one. education, the economy, jobs, i think it goes down to policy. any politician or leader that supports policies that will create jobs, that will get the economy going, that will give choice in education so ayala

continue owe parent are not hostage to a bad school district and lose their children, they're going to get hispanic hearing. now, when it comes to the immigration question -- >> hold on. i want to pause on the school for one second. it goes back to this question shall on the one hand, you have issues like school choice and the desire to have quality education that all communities want. but if the immigration policies set in place a circumstance where teachers are pulling kids out and confirming their status as american citizens, i mean, if i'm send sending my third grader to school, i don't want to have any concern that a guidance counselor is going to look at her last name and think, i need to figure out what her immigration status is even if she's not an immigrant, she's a sixth generation -- >> that's the point i was trying to make on the immigration question. they shouldn't get trapped in discussing the -- nope knows

what's going to happen. nobody has a good policy on what's happening to the 12 million. marco rubio says in speeches sometimes, i heard once in florida, all we know is that we're not going to grant amnesty to 12 million. it's never going to get past congress. barack obama knows this. we're not going to deport 12 million even. so we don't have a silver bullet. i think conservatives have to go to their strength and talk about inclusiveness. talk to immigration about legal immigration, how important it is in this country. how immigrants have a stake in the success of this country. how can they become american, how the children children's success -- >> stay right there. we have much more to say about the power of the latino vote after we come back. oh, my maltipoo's depressed. but my affordable prius c means i can pay for his acupuncture. whew. i love my pooch. oh no! my homemade sushi... turned p-ushi!

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kelly, attorney raul reyes and mike gonzalez of the heritage foundation. joining us is keith boykin a bet columnist and cnbc contributor and former white house aide to president clinton. just at the break, we were talking about this kind of question about what the republican party's multiple strategies might do to be attractive and hear about what the democratic party has to do and president obama needs to do going forward. >> so far, as the republican primaries have played out, it has really been like a gift to president obama because i'm the first one to say that, latinos are disappointed with the record deportations. he promised to get moving on immigration reform. he has not done that. then all of what we're seeing in the primaries has been so ugly. that mobilized latinos as you mentioned. that has mobilized latinos into voting for the democrats. during this whole process, we

hear so much about the tone of the debate. the tone of the debate is unpleasant. but for the republicans is goes to more than that. it's also the substance. on so many issues, latinos are progressive. they support the affordable healthcare act which the republicans do not. latinos support bigger government as a means to reviving the economy. they support higher taxes on the wealthy to fix the deficit and those are all things that the republicans have positioned themselves on the opposite side of. it's not just the tone, substance as well. >> i want to go back to the moment we had earlier. one of the worst things that president obama does in his very presidential role is to nominate and ultimately have confirmed to the u.s. supreme court the first woman of color sonia sotomayor. that moment of the first african-american president and the first latina on the court, i thought okay. so if this is where america is headed, how do we start thinking

not only about latinos as a voting block and african-americans and asians and south asians. how might we begin to think about enduring political coalitions of what's soon going to be the new majority. >> communities of color. i think the defining moment in that may come this summer. the supreme court is going to be hearing the constitutionality of the arizona immigration law. this is not an obscure piece of just immigration law that's going to be decided. it's really a matter of the demographic wave of this country and a collision course that it could be on with arizona, with alabama, with georgia that codifiey ethnic profiling. >> i better get my hair done every time i go out. it's not pretty if i don't. >> that's right. >> so it really speaks to the character of this country. will we say it's okay o go after

people because of how they look. i say no. we'll see a coalesce of communities of color if the supreme court decides the wropg way, right? says it's okay to have those laws, okay to build barbed wires around your borders. other states will never do it. >> keith, i want to pull you in here. what is the strategy that the parties are looking at, as they look at these reality of a new demographic majority? >> i think they're trying to lose. i saw a -- >> doesn't want to be president, it's a bad job. >> i think so. i looked at a poll this morning and shows mitt romney is trailing barack obama in every demographic category except white men and whites without college degrees. look at young people. obama won young people 2-1, won the latino vote 2, to 1. they're going after latinos and gay voters and after women voters and after union members.

if you take out all those people, who is left? who is going to support the republican party? >> but it feels weird. because this is not really what the republican party looks like in certain ways. when i look forward to 2016, i'm thinking, okay, marco rubio, nikki haley, jeb bush, my governor, bobby jindal. i may roll my eyes about what i think their policies are, but the fact is, that is not a really white gop slate. >> here. one thing. first, i don't agree with raul what he said that hispanics are progressive. i think they're conservative. >> i was speaking of latino decisions of 2011 that says they're at the core of progressive. >> hispanics are pro family, very religious, church attendants, believe in patriotism. they really have a conservative outlook. i remember when sotomayor was being sworn in in the supreme court, i talked to a man in spanish and said what do you

think of sotomayor. he said i think she's great. he said a whole bunch of conservative values. on the -- talking about electoral blocks, that is the way the left looks at the electorate and that's not how conservatives would look at it. and this idea of hiding off the gay vote and the hispanic vote and the african-american vote and jewish vote, that is really, that vulcanized sense of nation cuts against the grain of conservatism and that's not how -- >> if you write off entire groups, the majority of the population. >> as melissa said, you have many people who jindal, rubio, martinez, canseco, people who are diverse. i guess, they should, rather than look at groups of victims that need to protect the social status turn around and vote -- >> i don't think it has to be

victimology. the way that you describe sort of socially conservative values, family values, church attendance, it's very true of how african-americans -- >> we're politically progressive. the social issues, african-americans are just as conservative as most republicans. but if you look at political issues, we consistently vote for democrats. i think that the hispanic community may be making some of the same distinctions here. i don't think because you have the conservative values on family questions doesn't mean you won't vote for the -- >> the hispanic voters, if you can speak of them, they have not. they have been a swing vote. they voted 44% for mr. bush. they have swung back and forth. >> which is odd that they're starting to become -- >> it's very early yet. we haven't had a candidate from the republican party ee mefemer. we can't tell what's going to happen this year. the polling looks good for barack obama. it is early polling. i've only seen one poll. >> the polling is good for

barack obama in the short term. part of what we're interested is in the long-term questions, how the party survives. if you write off whole elements. particularly, given that there are real ins. >> what i have to say, when talking about latinos being progressive, i personally think it's best that latinos remain swing voters. you have both parties competing for them. >> absolutely. >> from a purely strategic decision, strategic viewpoint, i don't understand what mitt romney and these other candidates are doing. for example, mitt romney he could have said he would support the dream act which is an incremental measure. he didn't have to take that swipe at sotomayor. >> he did send his son down to do a spanish language ad in part rico. >> he has been hanging out with a crisco beck. for anyone what watches yun

vision, jorge ramos has called him public enemy number one. >> there's so much more. i promise, i'll have you all back. because this is going to continue to be a critically important issue going forward. thank you to angela maria, kelly, mike gonzalez and raul reyes and kevin boy continue. there's nothing like experiencing march madness in a neighborhood barbershop. that's where we went and we'll talk more about it after the break. i love that my daughter's part fish. but when she got asthma, all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.

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discuss political issues, argue about news and information. if you're going to be joining us regularly, you get to go to the barbershop a lot. this week, we headed to the barbershop for one reason. to watch basketball. that's right. nerdland is in the throes of march madness and we decided that this was madness best experienced in a couple of barber shops in the heart of new york's brooklyn and harlem. >> i'm arnold. i've bp a barber since '89. we have the college court liu. a lot of them come to me for haircuts. >> we come here all the time. games with the fellas. we all like different players. differences of opinion. >> i put dell over nuchlt lv. >> they're more nba fan. my man, we big college basketball fans. so we haven't had a rowdy atmosphere yet. had this gets down to the final four, it probably get a little

more crazy. >> i've been coaching basketball for about 30 years. i try to help kids get in school who can't afford it flew a basketball scholarship. they sacrifice a lot and don't receive none of the benefits that the universities receive from advancing in each round in ncaa. they should get some kind of compensation for it. >> i made a little bracket yesterday. i'm doing all right. >> president obama filled his own bracket on espn saying exactly who he pre predicts to win. i think he knows what is going on in basketball more than me. i think president obama is an all right dude for that one. at the end of the day, as long as he's still handling his business as the president, he found osama bin laden, bush couldn't do it. so as long as he's handling stuff like that, he can fill out as many brackets as he wants. >> that's right. the president found osama bin laden and filled out his ncaa bracket. take that. now, while the action is playing

out on the court, on tv and in the barbershop, many say the stars of the show, the players are actually being taken advantage of. we'll discuss that when we come back. get ahead of it! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defend against digestive issues with three strains of good bacteria. hit me! [ female announcer ] live the regular life. phillips'. that's good morning, veggie style.

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so it's energy straight from nature to you. new nature valley protein bars. find them in the granola bar aisle. all right. president obama's bracket is a mess. he has kentucky, ohio state, north carolina and missouri in the final four. missouri lost on friday. the historically black college, the serious long shot, norfolk state university. ah, march, the month of dreams, teams and upsets that keep us on the edge of our seats. it's not the uber exciting santorum campaign. it is the ncaa tourney. we hear in nerdland have the madness. there are many, many tv monitors in your our newsroom but this week we tuned about a third of them into the games. i promise you, yes, we were

watching the news. but we were watching the extraordinary student athletes, many of whom were playing the definitive games of their careers. as much as we would like to settle in and enjoy the competition, the fact is, college basketball is rife with troubling politics. corruption and scandal pervade collegiate sports and others say they're increasingly exploited despite the fact that so many others benefit and profit from their talent. the feats of march can lull us into believing that it's a game of pure joy, adrenaline and yes, that's true, but at moments like this, we have to be careful, because it is also big business. that business has its own politics. so joining us now to talk ncaa politics are gentleman mel hill, columnist for espn.com. dave, sports editor at the nation and keith boykin, cnbc contributor and columnist for

bet. we had more fun in the break getting in here. i don't have any questions. i want to say let's talk politics and basketball here. i do want to talk the politics of basketball before we talk just basketball for a second. because this issue of these young men and we're mostly going to talk men's tournament at this point. with this incredible skill, playing these compelling games and yet, more and more people are beginning to say that scholarship money is insufficient compensation for their efforts. >> i completely agree with that. i mean, you're talking about an $11 billion television contract for march madness alone. it makes up roughly 90% of the ncaa's operating budget for the year. mark 'em rhett the president of the ncaa make at least $2 million a year. he has 14 vice presidents who make at least $400,000 a year. it's all built on a foundation of unpaid labor. and this is a serious problem. this is why taylor branch, you

put up his article who wrote the series about dr. king, parting the ways, he described it as a cartel and says it has "the whiff of a plantation." this is why we got to talk about occupying march madness. >> you talk about this. this is the article. if you've never -- not light reading. nothing taylor branch writes is light reading. for the great biographer of dr. king, to write about college sports, i can tell you i've spent a lot of time reading it and thinking approximate it. branch says to us in this article that we have this kind of sentiment. you asked was a screaming demon. i went to wake forest. i had huge basketball sentiment. he says this blind us to what's before our eyes. they're commercialized. billions of dollars flow through each other. the ncaa makes money, enables universities and corporations to make money on the unpaid labor of athletes.

but unpaid, but not uncompensat uncompensated, right? many of them are getting extraordinary college educations, right? >> they are. but you have to look from the bigger picture. you see your coach making $5 million a year driving a brand new benz, living in a 14-room manage. you see your athletic director making six figures, seven figures, everyone around you is allowed to profit except for you. the ncaa tells you, no, no. don't take anything. we had a situation at the ncaa tournament, one of the kansas state players was ruled ineligible for the game hours before the game for taking $200. i guarantee you, his coach makes $200 in ten seconds. >> i need an mhp pause. the coaches make $5 million? >> oh, absolutely. >> i don't really know if the players are mad, but as a college professor, give it up. i don't make anything near $5

million. >> a lot of college professors are mad because they feel they make contributions but see the big coach on campus, he has the brand new office and gets the brand new facility. athletics, i don't want to rip on sports, it's part of my life, it's why i do what i do. but they have set up a situation where they're asking kids that are cut out of the financial benefit, putting them in tough situations. if i'm them and see all those people making money, best believe somebody comes to me, offering me ten extra dollars, i'm taking it. >> keep this in mind. there are two sports you're not allowed to go pro out of high school, basketball and football. why is that? because they make a whole lot of money for a whole lot of very wealthy people. there are racial and class dynamics that run through this which i think anyone would have to see as being troubling. like in the way that they're able to get away with this setup. >> keith. i'm a weird anomaly. i ran in the ncaa track and field championships. i like the idea of the athletes

being paid. i went to a school, dartmouth, college, where we didn't have a big basketball program or football program. so i feel like you need to do something to compensate the athletes, but you have to do something to distribute the moneys around the schools. i was watching espn last night with the college wrestling champs on. they don't get a lot of attention. i think we need to get more attention to the sports that don't get that kind of attention. i think as a lot of unfairness in the way the system is being constructed right now. we need to do changes. >> i think part of this structure that you're talking about is very much -- i went to acc schools, i grew up there. when you say that, i'm thinking duke, i'm thinking the big schools. but the fact is, part of what the tourney gives us are these small schools and you know, sometimes obviously then there's the d-2 schools. i am going to bet, they're not making $5 million as coaches. they don't have huge contributions coming in from boosters and that kind of thing. is the problem really a very

narrow sort of slice of the very top schools that are behaving this way? >> i would say there's some slices that are pretty much everywhere. you're right, there is a big difference between what wake forest may get versus norfolk state. there's going to be a big difference. but there has to be a way to figure out the system. like people have asked what would you do with female athletics if you started a pay for play. the ncaa should not be allowed to exploit a student's likeness. think can put it on a video game, sell jerseys. we know it's your number. everybody knew that tim tebow wore number 15. when you bought the 15 in the florida uniform, you knew who you were buying it for. put that in escrow. do something. the way the system is set up, they're asking for more and more scandals. >> ncaa makes is seem they're concerned about the well-being of the student athlete. >> stop that right there. >> that's the impression you get. but the reality, it's just a big

profit making machine. >> that's right. asking the ncaa to be the enforcer of schools that do run afoul of violations is really like asking tony soprano to take care of the neighborhood drug dealer. all you're doing -- >> he could take care of him. >> he could take care of troubling situations, but all it does is legitimize them as a moral authority when in fact, i would argue that they are an a moral authority. they have the moral standing of a gnat in this case. people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and only because these kids don't get paid. that's the thing we can't get around. i'll tell you another basic common sense thing. why are scholarships renewed on an annual basis, why not four-year. >> you have problems of injuries and the idea of eligibility. >> or get rid of you if they want to bring swup else in. >> we have so much more to talk about right after the break. [ male announcer ] the game of life with the prius c!

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we're continuing our discussion about the fun and serious aspects of collegiate athletes. bet columnist keith boykin. basketball. everybody nosey live in new orleans. we're prepping for the final four as well. so when i heard you talk about occupying ncaa, i'm thinking, well, yeah, we want everybody to occupy it. it brings money to our city and revenues. this very idea of revenues that are coming in on the talent of these students, i wanted to go to you because the language that these are student athlete, you're not only doing the sports work as a journalist but you're teaching. >> i am. >> so when you think about sort of the classroom piece for these student athlete, what kinds of challenges are they facing literally in the classroom? >> that's one of the more unfair components of this.

it's one thing to already be exploiting them financially. but they do it academically as well. there's a lot of college athletes that are not being educated properly. if you're a coach and i mentioned the salary, $5, $6, $7 million a year. when an athlete comes to you and want to be in premed, you're not going to let thim do that. you say why don't you go to kin easology. >> hey -- >> you're going to steer them toward an easier major or you're going to not allow them to be engaged in extracurricular activity that would make them a more broader student. that's why we went to college, to grow up and learn. a lot of the coaches aren't doing that. athletes are in segregated dorms away from the rest of the campus population. they go to training table or practice. it is a full-time job. >> i taught a political science at an american university for two yiers. in my entire time of teaching, i had a diversity of students,

never a single black male student. and most of them are athletes i found. a lot of them were not encouraged to take classes like that shall pause it wasn't an easy class to take. we're going to take college athletics seriously and let them be students too. >> my friend who was all-american at maryland basketball mayor, he has a line where he says, we're not student athlete, we're athlete students. the second we come on to campus, we are told what our priorities are meant to be. i have so many stories of athletes who told me variations of being 18 x being excited about a major and having an assistant coach at a big time school go up to them and say, you don't really have to do that. look, i wasn't a big time athlete. when i was 18 in college, if someone, authority figure said that to me, i would have had a book bonfire in my room. you're asking 18-year-olds to make these very difficult moral choices about education and

heroship at the same time. it's very unfair. >> so i'm still wondering, though, in that -- yes, we're talking about ncaa tournaments. we're talking about the young men who we're watching and getting the millions of dollars of ad buys going on add they're not making much. i also know that my crew students in my class are waking up at 4:00 in the morning and going out and rowing and doing that and nobody is watching and nobody is doing ad bites. they've got real challenges in the classroom because they woke up at 4:00 in the morning. the like lie hood of anyone, a coach, dean, cutting them slack is lower than it is for those in the elite in the sport. i just wonder lieb, even as we feel a sense of moral outrage about the uncompensated labor of the basketball players, whether or not we're also missing, again these other layers of student athletes who are also facing academic and sports-related challenges? >> obviously, i think nonrevenue

sports, there's clearly a place for them in the ncaa and wonderful stories. even if you look at the graduation rates, you see the gap between nonrevenue athletes, their rate of graduation versus the revenue sports. it's pretty startling. one of the major components or one of the major studies that was done, university of central florida where i teach where did looking at graduation rates, black male athletes, continue to fall behind white male athletes. but not quite the same gap between black and white female athletes. when it's not as much money in your sport, it's probably a little less corruption. >> it's fascinating that that study you talked about at central florida is done by a man who is a legendary anti-apartheid fighter. we developed a new system in terms of athletes on the campuses and what they have access to in terms of education, in terms of opportunity, what

they access on the campus versus what's expected of them and asked of them. too often, wear a brand, run up and down the court as a human commercial but don't see any benefit from that and get knocked out if you take $200. >> i had a moment when you said new apartheid. on the one hand, i see the ways it's exploitation. on the other hand, i say apartheid, that feels like too much of a thing to say given what that is materially for even in a post apartheid era for the black africans living in south africa. >> i would say to that, when you think about the background that they come from, who played the revenue producing sports, what's expected of them, what they get out of the college shs versus what the college gets out of them, it's a brutally exploited system. i was very shocking when taylor branch, with his experience called it the width of a plantation when he talked about t that's very powerful language.

>> he's not the firsort of pers to use that lightly. >> it's to brace us to say something stinks in mudville here. >> i feel like i don't really understand this conversation in part because i've never really been the fanatic about college supports as a fan more so as a participant in the past. but in my school experience at dartmouth, i felt the only sacrifice i made was i couldn't ski. the coach wouldn't allow me to ski. academics were the whole emphasis. you were there to learn and as an athlete as a secondary issue. it wasn't a primary. i don't think it was just the case for track and field but for all the sports, football, basketball. even though they were money generating, they weren't the big generators like the big 10 schools >> what it started out in college isn't what it became. it did start off to be amateur pursuit. something that was supposed to occupy your time, round you out as an individual and

unfortunately, the fanaticism that took over in this country and the money started pouring in and now we have a business business that's under the fallacy. >> we have only got 20 seconds left and although it feels dirty to do it, i sort of think i immediate each of you to tell me who your pick is in the tournament. you have a pick, keith? >> i'm going for st. louis. that's where i'm from. >> you picked st. louis. that's who my alma mater is -- i went to michigan state. michigan state. >> people should support the national college players association. if they feel bad about this. i like unc. >> i went for byu all the way. >> good luck with that. >> it didn't work out. >> more in just a moment. first, time for a preview with "weekends with alex witt." alex? >> thanks so much. we have escalating demands today for an investigation into the death of martin. this after the release of chilling 911 calls. the unarmed teen was shot to death in florida. the man that shot him has not been charged with any crime.

in ten minutes we will hear some of those calls. two big contests in the gop presidential race. today it is puerto rico. tuesday, it is illinois. might be surprised by with a rick santorum is say being illinois. office politics, the president's re-election prospect. where the key hurdles he must overcome to help a win in november. "game change" author john heilemann. office politics of different sorts. how working women retreated in the 1960s and how the tv show "mad men" captures all that. >> thanks, alex. greatly appreciated. up next, whatever happened to the 40-hour workweek. ok! who gets occasional constipation,

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many american workers took time out their workdays to watch college basketball games. and many la meant the tournament

comes to the least productive day in the american work force. i'm not sure it is such a bad thing. sarah robert son took a compelling look at this issue earlier this week. arguing we work too long, too long, neglect the things that party most, including our own health and happiness. sarah argues it took a lot of struggle to get to a 40-hour workweek and right we need to go back to it for the sake of our sanity. in the middle of the continuing economic crisis, it is almost -- to suggest that we work a little less and play a little more and expect our work to have value and dignity. even as we go to the polls, demanding more jobs, also need to keep an eye on the type of work we are doing. it is not just about the jobs. it is about what work means to us. the value it has, what it contributes to ourselves, our families and our communities. we deserving to ask these questions no matter what salary

our work commands. just this week, we read on "the new york times" op-ed page an executive director of goldman sachs was walk weighing from its work because it lacked principle. we were left with the question whether employing homeless men and women as wireless hotspots for conference-goers is a reasonable way to offer employment opportunities. even as we clamor for work, we do well to remember the inalienable right to pursue happiness is written into the national fabric making meaningful work actually a part of our social contract. as we begin to emerge from our economic crisis, let's make sure that the work we make makes a difference. that is our show for today. thank you for sticking around and thanks to all of you at home for watching. i will see you next week. saturday, 10:00 a.m. coming up next, "weekends with alex witt." today, we stand against the tyranny of meager travel cards.

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