good afternoon. i'm matt miller in for dylan ratigan. we'll have more on the breaking news out of sanford, florida, coming up in just a few minutes. the police chief moments ago announcing we will step aside temporarily in the wake of the controversial shooting death of teenager trayvon martin. we begin with the other big story today, the war on trial. general john allen said the u.s. must keep a significant combat presence there next year, despite growing public concerns about the impact of multiple redeployments. case in point -- army staff sergeant robert bales, the military is expected to file charges against him at any time now, charges including 17 counts of murder, since another victim has now died. local afghans in the village where the massacre took place say those 17 civilians were killed in retaliation for an ied attack. the pentagon denies any evidence of either the ied or any kind of

retaliation motive. in the wake of the killings we're hearing a lot of discussion about traumatic brain injuries, the so-called signature wounds of the iraq and afghan wars. sergeant bales suffered tbi in iraq, while serving a fourth tour of duty, destination afghanistan. 80% of our troops with blast injuries might suffer tbi, 80%, commonly associated with post traumatic stress disorder impacting 20% of all returning iraq and afghan veterans. those numbers only go up with repeat deployments, which leads us to ask again, what are we doing to our troops? we start with dr. harry croft, a trauma psychiatrist and former army doctor, he's also author of "i always sit with my back to the wall" which offers help to ptsd patients and afghan war veteran and military medic nick

colgan, he also suffered a traumatic brain injury on the battlefield himself. welcome, gentlemen. nick, let me start with you. you suffered tbi. what does that involve exactly? how did you experience yours and what are soldiers going through in this situation? >> i was a medic with the 82nd airborne based out of ft. bragg, north carolina. i deployed to afghanistan for 15 months. on a deployment i did a lot of good, helped save a friend shot in the head and my unit was responsible for the rescuing of 42 afghanis from a flooding river but at the same time a rocket propelled grenade hit off my humvee and forever changed my life. i have a traumatic brain injury among other transition issues. >> were you knocked out? >> i remember it was like white for aonext day i woke up and didn't feel the same inside. i had an eye twitch and i just didn't feel similar and a lot of my battle buddies picked up on it. >> how long ago was that? >> 2008, and it's 2012 now and

i'm still fighting through it every day. >> let me bring you in harry, dr. croft. talk a little bit about the difference between tbi and post traumatic stress disorder. they're not one in the same, and we don't know yet exactly what sergeant bales may or may not have suffered, but take us through the differences and how you think about that. >> so post traumatic stress disorder and the symptoms of tbi can overlap, but as you said, matt, they are separate disorders. ptsd involves symptoms of reexperiencing in the form of thoughts, nightmares, flashbacks, avoidance, in the terms of not wanting to socialize, being apart, being distant and detached, having their moods kind of shrunken down so they don't feel the full range of emotions, and then the third cluster of symptoms is called arousal, and that involves trouble with sleep, even without nightmares, being hypervigilant and suspicious, being angry and irritable, and

so those are the ptsd symptoms. the symptoms of traumatic brain injury can involve dizziness, headaches, changes in behavior that may be similar to ptsd but also, as nick said, maybe even neurologic symptoms, which may include weakness or numbness or other types of symptoms. >> now, doctor, you obviously haven't examined sergeant bales but you have examined over 7,000 during the course of your career, soldiers who suffered from ptsd. it was interesting on the campaign trail today, bob kurry, former veteran and medal of honor winner, who is campaigning for senate in nebraska offered one comment to a reporter that he thought that sergeant bales seemed to be suffering from some kind of mental illness. we shouldn't base our entire afghan policy in an overreaction to one man's troubles. what's your gut tell you? do you have any gut instinct about what we may be dealing with in terms of the sergeant bales case?

>> my gut tells me ttobably mor or pbi or a combination of the two. we don't know, matt, the impact of multiple deployments into an area that's not only dangerous, but it's difficult to deal with the folks there. we don't know the impact of being told you're not going back because you have disabling conditions, and then switched and said oops, you are going back. we don't know the impact of all that plus seeing a friend get their leg blown off, and you add to that stressors at home and stressors we probably don't yet understand, you add all that together and we don't know what happens to people like sergeant bales, but i assume this is more than simply ptsd and tbi. >> nick, you're involved obviously in representing the interests of veterans from iraq and afghanistan. this must be the talk of that community today.

what are you and your colleagues make of the sergeant bales situation and what it means? >> yes, we have an online community called community vet rons on iva.org and veterans are trying to make sure this incidence doesn't define them. like there's words out there he had ptsd, he had tbi, could have been alcohol. we don't know what it was but the important thing to remember i'm sitting in front of you right now and i have a tbi and never done anything like that and neither have the 2.4 million veterans who served overseas. >> millions who have been in difficult circumstances so this we don't know the bottom of this but it's an isolated circumstance. doctor, what does it say about the larger question of what we're doing in afghanistan? we've got folks going over multiple times, when we've got this kind of toll being taken at least on even if it's an exception on troops across the board. how should we make sense of this? isn't it time to get out?

>> that's a political decision. that's a military decision. i think i'll leave that to those folks involved making those decisions. >> sure. >> but in terms of the impact of multiple deployments, we don't know the impact yet. this is, as i understand it from the vets i've seen, the first war in the history of modern american warfare, where soldiers are sent back to the same combat area again and again and again, and even when they're home, matt, mentally they may not be. it's called dwell time. but they may be getting ready for the next deployment. we don't know the impact of all that. when i lecture around the country, my concern is exactly what nick said. i don't want the stigma of any soldier, any warrior who's been in iraq or afghanistan to be besmirched by what happened in this one isolated incident, and

when i talk to businesses, i don't want them to get the idea that every soldier who comes back from iraq and afghanistan will behave in this heinous way. this is a very unusual circumstance. >> nick, when i've been talking to a buddy in the navy in the event days since this all broke and he says the navy guys say this really raises a question of what have we done to the u.s. army, they're bearing the brunt of all this. how would you respond to that? >> honestly it's shaken the perception of the war, to many americans and also it's challenged the professional humble warriors that are overseas serving every day but it's important to remember that our soldiers need the resources and support from the second they deploy to the minute they come home throughout their life, one, two, three deployments and it's great we're having this conversation about how many deployments are too much. the time to have the conversation is now, because right now, what's worse, a six-month deployment, a 15-month deployment? we don't know. it's important to look at the

factors and get to the bottom of it and get our troops the resources they need. >> dr. croft, are we doing enough? when it comes to the veterans who have come back home i spent time on the v.a. website, a lot of materials on ptsd, on traumatic brain injury, on ways for families and loved ones to try and help their service member cope. those are good words, but do we really do right by our veterans at this point? >> well, i think the v.a. is trying to do right by the veterans, but many veterans don't trust the v.a. they have negative feelings. that's one of the reasons we wrote the book and developed the website so people could come externally to the v.a. and still get the good information they need that can help them through this difficult time. >> dr. harry croft, nick colgan thank you for taking us through the important issues that have come to the front of the news in a tragic circumstance. coming up, breaking news in

the shooting death of trayvon martin. we'll talk about the news coming out of a florida press conference just moments ago. plus pipeline politics, proof of what america really thinks of keystone pipeline and following the president's energy tour, he speaks live this hour. and later, march "madmen." >> it's fascinating i get asked a lot about the end and i'm a person, like don, we share this, i don't want to think about it. i have 13 hours of the show that you haven't seen yet. sit back, enjoy it. >> the series creator on rock center last night talking about the season to come. why america's mad for "madmen" in "the daily rants." how they'll live tomorrow. for more than 116 years, ameriprise financial has worked for their clients' futures. helping millions of americans retire on their terms. when they want. where they want. doing what they want. ameriprise. the strength of a leader in retirement planning. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you one-to-one.

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it is apparent that my involvement in this matter is overshadowing the process. therefore, i have come to the decision that i must temporarily remove myself from the position as police chief for the city of sanford. i do this in the hopes of restoring some semblance of calm to the city, which has been in turmoil for several weeks. >> breaking news out of sanford, florida, moments ago, you just heard it, police chief bill lee is stepping down temporarily after coming under fire for his handling of the trayvon martin case. the 17-year-old was unarmed when he was shot by a self-appointed neighborhood watchman last month. the shooter, george zimmerman, claims it was self-defense. we bring in karen, susan and jimmy, the mega panel, joining us. welcome. jimmy, i'll start with you, remotely, today. what do you make of obviously

this galvanized a national controversy. will the police chief stepping aside do anything constructive to advance the ball i guess now in the hands of the city manager? >> no, i don't think it will. he's 25 days late. i think that you have someone -- look, we all look to our law enforcement, to our community leaders to guide us through these things. this case has been bumbled. it has been mishandled. you have a dead child. you have a police chief for 25 days has sat virtually silent on the national stage, and now we have so many different law enforcement agencies looking into this issue. i don't know whether this was a hate crime or not. but what i can tell you is that for 25 days, george zimmerman is walking around the united states of america, with a gun. he can vote. he can do everything that trayvon martin can't, and that police chief has dropped the ball and not done his job and he should be ashamed and should have been out 25 days ago in my

opinion. >> it's only a temporary thing. karen, what do you think the significance of this is now? it is amazing the burden of proof seems to be on the victim and the man who carried gun, clearly involved in this act isn't being called into account at all. >> as trayvon martin's father said on reverend al's show, what if trayvon was standing his ground? i think this is the start of the police chief understanding that it's over. he's going to have to step down but we've seen this time and time again where the person, where there's a crisis, there's kind of a half measure. okay for a half measure but i don't see him surviving something like this. >> what is the path from here to at least a proper process of justice? the feds have been getting involved. i know there's trayvon martin's parents are meeting with federal authorities and the u.s. attorney's office down there. where does this go from here? >> karen's right, part of the

process. it will lead to him eventually leaving. i don't understand why the second thing was that zimmerman was arrested by the acting chief of police. >> right. >> that's exactly what should have happened next. if he waits more than by sundown tonight they're absolutely nuts. >> good advice from you guys. trayvon martin's parents will join reverend al sharpton exclusively on "politics nation" ahead of tonight's big rally. they met earlier today with justice department officials and we'll have a full report tonight. developing now pipeline politics. president obama will speak shortly from ohio center for automotive research, his second energy speech of the day. this morning the president was in oklahoma, he issued an executive order for federal agencies to get moving on the portion of the proposed keystone pipeline expansion. take a listen. >> today, we're making this new pipeline from cushing to the gulf a priority, so the southern leg of it we're making a priority and going to go ahead and get that done. the northern portion of it,

we're going to have to review properly to make sure the health and safety of the american people are protected. >> that review could take years, but already there's support for the idea across the political spectrum. more than 80% of republicans on board as well as more than half of independents and nearly half of democrats. we bring back in our mega panel. karen, it seems like the president is straggling this issue in a sophisticated way. he held up the house, jamming him on the approval before, cheers from the environmental community, today on this energy tour he's showing he's pro-american energy, he gets to echo the growth in u.s. energy production that's been done and working on a part of the pipeline and saying that can go forward even if it's not going to solve gas prices any time soon. seems like pretty smart politics at this point. >> certainly the president has been out there, taken a hit over gas prices. there's not a lot he can do about that. that's why you've seen the president talking about as they call it all of the above strategy, they've been trying to

tout what he's been doing in drilling, what he's been trying to do across the board, probably didn't hurt that this announcement got made in new mexico which is neighboring arizona, two really important states so politically smart for independents although it was interesting to see almost immediately when the announcement came out, statements started coming out from many of the progressive groups who felt like this was not good timing for this decision. i think they felt like when the other part of the decision, because remember there's two sections of this pipeline, the this is the southern portion and the portion that was actually put on hold was the northern portion. >> right. >> i think there was hope the whole project would be put on hold. this is kind of a -- >> it's a tight rope. >> it is. >> no matter what he does, susan,le' tick off a huge piece of his constituency at least temporarily while sending signals to others that are important. where do you come out on the politics and the policy on all this? >> he's doing what he has to, trying to educate the people that he's not responsible for gas prices, because by the way, a republican president, democrat

president, independent president, none of them are responsible, solely responsible for gas prices. but -- >> thank you for that information on national television. >> newt gingrich will give you $2.50 a gallon, my friend. >> a democrat, republican or independent would try to say look what i'm trying to do to fix the problem anyway because that's how you get reelected. we are going to go into november and whatever the president has said, when people go to the pump, if they are paying a lot more than they did a few years ago, they're going to hold him accountable. >> jimmy, is that right? >> well, look, the president's calling the bluff on this one, and do i think he should have done it? no, i don't. i think that the only reason the keystone pipeline has any traction at all is because the house of republicans wanted to send it over to the senate democrats and make the vulnerable democrats in the senate have to take tough votes in an election year. that was the entire strategy by my friends on the right from the house. so here we are and the president will open up half the pipeline and calling their bluff on it

and you know what? it's not going to reduce the price of gas, not going to make gas or oil get anywhere any faster and susan is right, the president, this one or any other one, has virtually nothing to do with the price of gas. >> but it helps in his election year argument. >> yes, it does. >> you're right. >> people hold the president accountable. >> we have one last issue with a fun wrinkle i want to toss n the philosopher peter singer from princeton has an interesting proposal out, unlike health care which is a right, air flight and air travel is not a right. we should be able to charge obese flyers more for hair trikt because they take more, they require more fuel, and he goes so far in his column that's out today on the proposal to say that if you feel uncomfortable being weighed in at the airport to have your ticket price adjusted you could stand on the scale with your luggage in tow. we have a graphic on his argument, which is a slight asian woman who has checked in with 88 pounds, 40 kilograms of

suitcases and boxes pays extra for exceeding the baggage allowance but a man who weighs 40 key lows more than her whose baggage is under the limit pays nothing. he says that's unjust, karen finney. where do you stand? >> why did he have to say a slight asian woman? karen elizabeth finney not getting weighed to get on a plane, no-how, no way. >> no woman is going to get on a scale with her luggage on a vacation, even to hawaii. >> even with your beingage? >> of course not. >> are you against charging folks more insurance premiums if they smoke? >> i'm for it. >> what's the difference? >> the cost of the plane ticket -- look, we're already getting gouged, come on, right, but the cost of the tickets -- jimmy's laughing at us. >> you're slipping past the philosophical point. >> i don't care about the philosophical point. >> it's a provocative idea. his point is, there's more fuel consumed, and why shouldn't we

require people who are just as they put more baggage on do this, crazy? what do you think? >> i don't know. look, i don't know who this professor singer guy it but one day when he's old he may be fat and he may have to eat his own words, no pun intended. look, i think this is crazy talk. i don't know why you would charge someone because they're bigger or smaller or whatever. we're singling people out. this is crazy. this isn't even a story, come on. jes jesus. >> we're going to leave it, you look like you're breathless. >> i'm 6'1", if i have to pay a little bit more then i want more leg room without having to ask for it. >> deal, maybe we'll cut that deal. >> we'll see. >> we'll see. no heights or scales for karen finney, when we get to the airport. next the panel stays. who says alone means lonely? our specialist bucks the stereotypes of living on your own. ♪ here i go again on my own ok, guys-- what's next ?

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this does not look like a guy doing okay. it looks like a more than pit in here. listen, i'm getting married. >> get out? >> what? you just sat there and said you're happy for me. >> i'm hanging by a thread. i'm reading "don't kill myself" books. >> you said the book wasn't yours. >> don't worry about the book. it isn't mine. i glanced at it. >> such is the stereotype of singletons, lonely, dpreepresse their lives a mess. if that's the case why are so many people going solo? back in 1950, 9% of the americans lived alone, now it's 31 million people or one in seven. these days it's just as common for most friends to be single as if t is if they're married, maybe because being on your own isn't so bad after all. our specialist is standing up for all of the solo folks out

there, joining us is elin kleinenberg, a professor of sociology at new york university and the author of "going solo: the extraordinary rise and surprising appeal of living alone." welcome. >> nice to be here. >> so we've got a panel of people who live solo. i'm a long married man. except for jimmy who lives with his dog apparently he doesn't count his dog which say little bit unfair to the dog. we have a picture of the dog there, in case you were wondering but we got authorities here who can interact on this. talk about this trend, because it used to be, there's been this stigma in the popular culture there was something strange about living alone for too long but it is the norm now. >> in the 1950s a bunch of psychologists studied americans' attitudes and 80% thought that single people were either sick, neurotic or immoral. times have changed. we think about this differently. about half of all adults are now single and a third of them live alone. it's a social way to live.

>> and you've looked at this as a sociologist. what are the key things that you found that sort of characterize this surge in solo living? >> clearly these days people live alone when they can afford to. you find this in societies throughout the world, where there's affluence and welfare states, and also economically independent women. that's a big force here. >> economically independent women we have right here. susan has a question. >> i'm curious. when we say all these wonderful things about women -- people, men, women who live alone, does that translate into the workplace? are they more successful? for example karen just rocked out hosting a show by herself. she lives by herself. are you more apt -- >> not bowed down by some man at home. >> exactly. >> are you more likely to succeed if you live on your own? >> one thing i could tell from the interviews with lots of younger adults who are living alone, doing that gives them the freedom to invest in their careers, and establish security that's difficult when they have obligations to other people. so you see people spending time

at work, investing in building their networks and actually controlling their lives in ways that they can't when they're in relationships. >> jimmy williams, got a question? >> no. i just think it's great that finally we're getting our due. you know, there is something to be said that you can walk around your house naked, no one cares. you can burp, fart, do whatever you want. >> can't wait to come over. >> guess what? you don't have to say excuse me, or i'm really sorry i made that noise. frankly i think a lot of married couples have the exact same thing. you are talking to three professionals that are all single and we all, except for susan, who does not have a dog or a cat, she needs one, we're going to send her one. >> no cats, jimmy. >> no cats. the point is that it's not hard to be single or married. it's just a matter of what you want. i want to be married. i want to find somebody to fall in love with, but i you know

it's not a stigma. i'm glad you wrote the book. i'm going to read it. >> does your study show people are content, still looking? >> first of two things we make a distinction between living alone and being alone. people say in the abstract they'd like to find that perfect partner but what's different today is that people who live alone are so socially connected with friends and other people that they're not willing to settle for the wrong person, and that in itself is an incredible change. there was great pressure to shack up just for the sake of doing it 50 years ago. today people don't want to. >> karen? >> well we have a presidential candidate who is certainly pushing a spousing marriage and a lot of initiatives that would make me think women aren't smart enough to women on their own but one of the things that strikes me did the timing coincide with the timing of women working outside of the home, having their own money, having more control over their economic freedom? what, how did that help push this movement forward?

>> that's been a big driver, when women make enough money in the labor market that they can delay getting married or break out of a marriage that's not working. you see an incredible spike in living alone. let me tell you one place on earth where there's a lot of affluence and very little living alone is saudi arabia, because women don't have that economic independence. on the political side, what this means is the parties are thinking about how to tap into this single voting demographic, half of all adults, 33 million people living alone. the democrats have been very aggressive this year in particular trying to mobilize single female voters. that's a key demographic for them. they voted more for republicans in the 2010 elections than they did in 2008 so republicans are playing for them as well. >> how does the advent of social networking play a role in countering the social isolation that maybe in a previous era would have been a concern? >> well, what it means is that people can be home and alone, but connected to a world of people and ideas like never before. when you're home and you have

access to skype and facebook and e-mail, meet up, all these things, you have a way to find companionship outside of your home as well. we're also anxious about our iphones, demanding all of our time and distracting us from each other that we say maybe these are anti-social media, but the best research we have right now tells us that people who are heavy users of these social media are actually more likely to spend time with friends and neighbors face-to-face. >> one thing i noticed in your book is that even though there's been a surge, we saw the statistics in the u.s., scandinavia is the site of advanced nations that has the highest by far, the circumstance of people living alone. why is that? is it because of the broader safety net? what explains that? >> that's right. it was a big surprise to me, the original idea for the book was to call it "alone in america," which is really the wrong idea turns out because the people are not so alone and it's not an american phenomena. it's worldwide. scandinavia is very high here because they invest in the common good, subsidized housing

that's good housing, guaranteed health care, access to home care, public transportation, safe streets. when you invest in the common good, you give people the capacity to live the way they want to. it's interdependence that makes independence possible. >> that's interesting because it means it's sort of, does that also mean that the richer we become as nations and the more we make a reciprocal commitment to each other the more we say the hell with the rest of us and be on our own? >> people are actually social. it means you don't have to be trapped in a relationship that's not working and one of its most powerful things people told me again and again is that there's nothing lonelier than living with the wrong person. the majority of the people who live alone in the united states once married, once lived with someone and discovered they're better living on their own than being in a bad marriage. >> what happens when you have two people used to being alone and you put them together, though? >> that's a great experiment. >> that's the next book "lone

and then together." we have to leave it there. eric kleinenberg, the book is "going solo." one benefit of being single this week while in new york you can get a broadway ticket last minute as a single any night of the week. so at least i'm experiencing a little bit of the benefits. >> table for one in a good restaurant. >> and marriage has its benefits, too. >> i did so much spousal pandering on the show i can't do more today. >> okay. >> thank you very much and thanks to our mega panel. you're alone but we're together and that's always important. we'll see you guys soon. straight ahead, answer to the jets' prayers or purgatory for fans? the story every sports fan is talking about today. molly barker created the girls on the run, focused on teaching empowerment, optimism and gratitude. participants follow a ten-week curriculum building up to a 5k

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>> apparently some jets players are not happy about it. yeah, they're called wide receivers. >> like it or hate it, all the talk here in new york and among football fans around the country is about the young quarterback. yes, tebow is coming to town. the heisman trophy winner traded to the new york jets after peyton manning signed with the denver broncos. as you heard not everyone is doing a touchdown dance at thes news. the back of "the daily news" has the statue of liberty tebowing and the "new york post" goes on offense with the headline "no ring circus." it slams the jets for bringing tebow into the tent. fans on twitter were split. "cheers, mark sanchez may be the best play action qb in the league and add tebow to that and the deception will keep every defense on their toes. at least one of tebow's new teammates isn't protecting his soon to be quarterback. jets defensive back antonio

cromartie said, why bring tebow in when we need to bring in more weapons for mark sanchez? build the team around him. we already signed a up a jets namath was my hero and broadway joe gave a big thumbs down. "i can't agree with it. it's a publicity stunt. i think it's really wrong" he said. "i want to give tebow a chance. he had a hell of a streak last year but when the man who led the jets to super bowl glory isn't on board, color me dubious," from a believer named tebow to a total non-believer, an atheist guy to religion and he may have more in common than the new jet qb than you think. that's me in the spotlight losing my religion ♪ rity... security. that's what matters to me... me? i've been paying in all these years... years washington's been talking at us, but they never really listen... listen...it's not just some line item on a budget;

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her doctor recommended aleve. it can relieve pain all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lois... who chose two aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. [ female announcer ] try aleve d for strong all day sinus and headache relief. we are back, breaking down a big weekend for thousands of atheists throughout america. they'll fwaert at their annual convention just outside the nation's capital. we're guessing tim tebow won't be one of them. our next guest says tim tebow could help atheists to live a better life. here is best selling author aland boutan. his new book is "religion for atheists: a nonbeliever's guide

to the uses of religion." welcome. it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you so much. thanks for having me. >> now you talk, i'm about 100 pages into the book and really enjoying it. one of the things you point out is that we're sort of stuck in this tired debate between believers and nonbelievers when nonbelievers really have a lot to learn from the if not the supernatural sides of religion, from the practices of religion, say more about that. >> that's right. i mean being an atheist has become associated with not believing in god but wanting nothing to do with religion. that's an outmoded view of atheism. religions have practices who can be of appeal to myself, but religions are experts at building communities, teaching ethics, educating people in certain ways, and there's just a

lot to engage with and atheists shouldn't walk away because they decided they don't believe in anything. >> one of the phrases you have that i like in the book is "wisdom without doctrine" that religion can help instill that. talk about what you mean by that, and let's apply it to one of the areas that you talk about in the book, which is a sense of community that religion has traditionally cultivated for millennia. >> well, there are all kinds of psychological concepts within religions that can be stripped of supernatural concept and used as wisdom. take something like the catholic idea of original sin. you could think that was a totally supernatural idea, but really it's a psychological concept. it's about suggesting that people are imperfect, that we're all starting off in life in a not perfect state. now that's a very useful starting point for relationships, for community building, et cetera. the assumption that we are perfect is a pretty dangerous one so that's a concept i like and as you say, community building is something that

religion s accell at. all of us are social deep down but frightened to assess our socialability. religious places take us to introduce us to one another and help to turn strangers into friends. big cities and the modern world is full of gatherings, but there's a difference between being with people and breaking down those barriers of isolation that keep us in our own little silos and religions are very good at that. >> one of your idea is specifically on community is just as the church might be able to gather people across races and classes and different socioeconomic groups in church that in the civic sector or the secular sector we should be doing things like have communal restaurants where the same kind of norm is cultivated. talk about that idea. >> well all the major faiths

know that to build a community is useful to break bread together, they all allow us to sit down at tables and allow in strangers and gather around food, and of course the modern world is obsessed with food, we have restaurants and bars everywhere but so little of that eating, so little of that communal gathering is a true community, where you get to know people. so i suggest that our modern rituals of eating learn a little bit from how religions have eaten for millennia, and because there's a lot of communal bonds to be built up around that meal and religions know that and they do is beautifully. >> one of your big ideas in the book is on education, on how religion has traditionally made no, hasn't tried to hide at all the fact they're trying to shape character and human behavior of those who are members of that group and that by contrast, modern universities in the way most people get educated in society today, even though

they've tried to replace those norms with things like literature and the study of history and other inspiring narratives are very timid and sheepish and don't see their role at all as trying to ininstruct people in behavior. you see that as a loss. what's the loss and what's the answer? >> i do. religions take at the starting point all of us are vulnerable and in need of guidance. that's a good starting point, i think we are so they're determined to instill wisdom. i don't always agree with the wisdom they're trying to teach us but i like their starting point that we're in need of it. it seemed towards the end of the 19th century what was going to replace scripture was culture, the study of the humanities, the study of the experience of mankind, of a millennia. if you showed up at any school or university now in the united states or else where and said i've come to find meaning, direction, consolation, they would look at you very strangely. there's a kind of assumption, an elite culture that getting through life is an easy business, only stupid people

would read self-help books is what we're told. i can't agree with that. i think life is a difficult business. religions recognize that and they're determined at every key stage of life to be on hand to guide us, to educate us, to give us a sense of direction and i think we missed that in the modern world. we're obsessed with freedom. freedom is always the watch world and don't tell me how to live. that's all very well but i think things get lost. many of us don't have great ideas about how we should live and we're not transmitting wisdom generation to generation as religions do. that's a catastrophic loss and waste of time. we are not able to teach our children systematically the best lessons of a previous generation and a lot is lost and religions seem to know that and honor that insight. >> it seems crazy because the greatest philosophers action aristotle and socrates were trying to teach people how to live. we have a minute left. i want to list some of the ideas you're floating to provoke a conversation among secular society what we could adopt from religion. one we talked about is gathering

with people for meals, more communal eating, reorganizing museums by themes. what do you mean by that, briefly? >> well, that we learn from religions that art is not just a pleasant thing for the weekend, it's a guide to life. people in religions break down in front of paintings, use them as guides to life. in the secular world we don't use it as an emotional, psychological resource so relingons full of wisdom in teaching us how to approach works of art. >> one of your other issues is teaching practical issues in college, that means just as we were talking about, you want professors to be teaching what, exactly? >> well, to be teaching us the great struggles of life, as religions do, that is, you know, how to manage a relationship, how to deal with money, work, social pressures and ultimately mortality. this is bread and butter for religions. in the secular world we all seem to know how to do that, whereas

we don't. ultimately my argument is that religions are intermittently two beautiful, complex, subtle to be abandoned merely to those who happen to believe in this pem. therefore all of us, not least believers among us. >> alain debonton, delighted to have you here. i think you are the archetype of the sophisticated self-help writer and i value viewers will "religion for atheists." thank you for being with us today. >> thank you so much. coming up, will romney be april to shape the etch-a-sketch story? and what makes us mad for "madmen"? >> really? >> yes. >> bets, you're upset. >> i am. and i know how you feel about grieving. a carfirmation. hey, this is challenger. i'll be waiting for you in stall 5.

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to fans' delight, "madmen" is back this weekend. here with her daily rant is imidra lloyd weber. >> "madmen" is set in 1960s madison avenue ad agency. it has its season five premiere this sunday. press bombardment included a "newsweek" tribute issue complete with retroads. the series has had homage paid to it by "snl" "the simpsons"

and others. you can feel good about yourself bring it up at the water cooler. snooki doesn't have the same impact as a 15-emmy award winning series. they may drink like fishes and smoke like chimneys but they do historically accurate setting with intelligent dialogue. the show is marketed to perfection. "madmen" creator matthew weiner obsessively keeps the story lines on lockdown. in our era of easily accessible information this serves to whet appetites even more, heighten their enjoyment. we should enjoy. weiner said he's an entertainer. since the premiere in 2007 we have been through tough times. "madmen" provides escapeism, its it's lavish, has fabulous costumes on a very attractive cast, jon hamm, jones, christina hendricks and the rest. it reminds us how far we've come. the 1960s ad men are charged

with making and selling the american dream, but we can see now how flawed their version is. if you were born white male and heterosexual you've got the dream, but the rest of us, race issues are highlighted and i subscribe to the view it's the most feminist show on television. the majority of writers in hollywood in the series are women. you witness the struggles of female characters' faces, for equality, contraception. "madmen" makes me great life to the real life peggy olsons and joan harrises who made my life possible. as a society we've come a long way. today we have an african-american president and incredibly popular female secretary of state. perhaps the series strikes a chord that it does because it shows how far we have to go. the recent arguments over contraception, the tragic death of trayvon martin. "madmen's" reappearance is an agreeable but timely prompt. there is still much to make us

mad in the world, work for us as a society to do. matt? >> well done, imogen. i'm a "madmen" fan and you're right it forces us to ask where are we 40 years later and the progress we have. i have kind of a sillier obsession, when i watch the show, i love the -- >> christina hendricks. >> i love the skinny ties and the period feel. i don't know how men working drank that much during the day. i would be in the three martini lunch was clearly part of american history, but in culture, i'd absleep all afternoon. they're not or up to other things. >> really it is quite extraordinary but not that long ago. again it has that resonance for us today. >> anything you're expecting or hopeful for, just briefly as this unfolds? >> i saw rob cox yesterday. he's seen the two-hour episode. >> he has? >> and refused to tell me anything. he was that scared of matthew weiner he wouldn't tell me anything. >> part of the lockdown,