thank you. [ male announcer ] six indulgent layered desserts at 150 calories or less. temptations. it's the first jell-o that's just for adults. >> good morning, from new york. the reports of the obama campaign. and several cities around the country are seeking justice for trayvon martin. but, first, a story that broke last week that involved this program, somewhat albeit tangentially. i would have my response when i return. my thoughts on the story are somewhat complicated, so i

decided to make it my story on the week. truth and consequences. i first heard of mike daisy's model sometime last spring when two friends of mine went to see the work in washington, d.c. i particularly remember one friend recounting me what would be the monologue's climactic moment when a chinese member's hand had been crushed and saw the device turned on for the first time. as he flicks through the icons with what daisy calls his ruined hand, he tells mike daisy through the translater that it's a kind of magic. it now appears that moment never happened. the man with the ruined hand appeared to work at another factory and it's unclear if he made ipads. daisy has been in the news in the wake of the disamerican life running an episode-length

retraction of the airing of daisy's monologue. when his actual chinese translater was contacted, she contradicted many of the most dramatic details, including him meeting with underage workers and the incident with the ipad and the man with the injured hand. daisy's defense is that fundamentally he was miscast in the role of journalist. he's a story teller. a theater artist. in fact, he made that argument, more or less, on this very show just two weeks ago before i or the general public knew about the factual inconsistencies that had emerged in his story. >> it's a complicated subject because i work as a monologuist and story teller. so fundamentally, i tell the story and i use the tools of story tellingment i use compression, i use all of these

tools that the world of objective georgeism doesn't use. >> i, too, took daisy at his word when i saw his show, twice, that he said he saw what he saw. he said i met workers who were 15, 14, 13, 12. what i thought he meant was he met workers who were 15, 14, 13, 12. it wasn't just my own naivety. that was the explicit expression he conveyed. he explicitly confronts him on the factualness of his work. >> how do you reconcile the -- telling a good story with also trying to get the facts right? and when do you decide what is the more important goal? >> oh, well, you know what i've found over the years is that the facts are your friends.

if there's ever a case where i'm telling a story and the facts are inconvenient, nine times out of ten, i haven't thought about the story deeply enough. the world is more complex and more interesting than my eh imagination. so the world is full of really fascinating things. you have so many things on stage. any time you want something stow to happen, you don't have to pretend it happened and lie. you can use a flight of fancy. you can go in whatever direction you need to go. but be clear that you're reporting the truth and in another case you're using hyperbole. be really clear. for me, it's not actually -- it's not that -- it's not actually that hard. if you're pretty scoopulous.

>> a little housekeeping is in order, first. when we booked mike on the program two weeks ago and had a conversation that was early resonant, i had no idea what was coming down the pike. second, we've reviewed mike's appearances on the program and it doesn't appear he's ever made some of the most dramatic claims that have now been called into question. that said, there were a few statements that now raise red flags. at one point, he mentioned he was interviewing hundreds of people in china. but his translater said it was more like 50. >> in china, the workday is 8 hours long. in the books. i never met anyone, literally never met anyone who heard of the idea of an 8 hour shift. >> this may have been a bit of high person lie, but even the official chinese news agency quoted 86% of migrant workers

worked longer than 8 hour days. which brings me to my final point. to use extortions to excuse apple and the rest of electronic manufacturers for the conditions in china that make their products. forget daisy even exists. the fact remains incredibly harsh. workers have essentially no rights and violations are comment. there's ample documentation of underage workers, though they are quite a bit rare. there's ample documentation for unsafe working conditions. a chemical plant explosion just last month killed 25 people. most importantly, to focus on the most dramatic instances also loses the point. aren't underage and aren't going to be disfigured. for them, the work is grinding and endless with no work rules or autonomy that might give respite.

women work like men and men work like animals. in the version of daisy's monologue, he invited the audience to consider what it would actually feel like to stand in one place for hours and hours at a time with few if any breaks and do the same, small repetitive hand motion over and over and over. and identical sequence unending. the line in front of you never stopping. and the discomfort of standing still. and how imprezzed in this monotony to bring yourself the deepest and malicious of reprieves. to bend over and change position and feel those nerves quiet for just an instant. and he asked the audience to imagine the anxiety and

dejection that might overtake you to pick up the item you've knocked off the assembly line. you are headed swiftly back to the prison of the monotony of the line. that was cut from the play in the later version i saw. it is why the agony was so powerful. it forced us to hope with dreams and friends and souls like our own who toil to make the disembodied devices that just show up in our apple store. to consider that under another set of circumstances, those human beings could be us, our family, our friends, our loved ones. if we're to ask the question why it is that we get to be the one who is delight in the design of the nifty devices while others

have to be the ones with harsh conditions to make them. and it's actually disreasoned that i find the distorpedoess maddening. that man with the ruined hand actually had a ruined hand, it appears, but didn't work at fox. and the magical moment didn't happen. if that man were your father or uncle or you, you would want your actual story told about what happened. you wouldn't want to be schismly used as a narrative prop in some other story. seriously honoring that humanity by being truthful to what happened to him. to see him as a means to a theatrical end is to make him into a cog in your own machine. and we are called to fight exactly against that. another story about the

consequences of dehumanizing others. the killing of trayvon martin after this. [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. [ female announcer ] nature valley granola bars, rich dark chocolate, toasted oats. perfect combinations of nature's delicious ingredients, from nature valley. ♪ nature valley granola bars, nature at its most delicious. woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ]

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by now, you know the story. 17-year-old unarmed boy was shot to death by 28-year-old george zimmerman. trayvon was black, zimmerman was hispanic. he called 9-1-1 and told the dispatcher he raised his suspiciouses because he was just walking around and looking about. >> he's got his hand inside his waistband and he's a black male. >> how old would you say he was? >> late teens. >> late teens? okay. >> um-hmm. something is wrong with him.

he's coming to check me out. he's got something in his hands. i don't know what his deal is. >> we've got them on the way. just let me know if this guy does anything else. >> okay. they always get away. >> zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch patrol and carrying a semiautomatic pistol when he called police. after zimmerman had shot and killed martin, he walked away saying they were barred from arresting him by florida's stand your ground law which we should know was backed by the nra. the sheer injustice made the case an international story. and, thursday, stanford police chief stepped aside. prosecutors have now convened a grand injury for april 10th.

president obama made his first public comments yesterday. >> my main message is to the parents of trayvon martin. if i had a son, he'd look like trayvon. and i think they are right to expect that all of us, as americans, are going to take this with the seriousness that it deserves and we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. >> right now, i'm joined by senior editor for the atlantic, associate editor for the nation magazine. he's currently an associate professor of criminal justice. you and i have talked a lot about the president and the

president's judgments about when to intervene. in fact, we've had long conversations on exactly this. this is one of those cases where there's a case to be made, but say anything doesn't help anyone because it will only polarize. and we saw what happened in the infamous gates in the summit. were you surprised he said something? i guess around wednesday, tuesday, somewhere around there, i thought it was precisely right. i didn't want to say anything at all. i thought all he could accomplish was to polarize the case. i thought he would end up with polls and analysts how is trayvon's polling affecting obama. no one who has an interest in this case wanted to happen. but he spoke pitch perfect. it's one of these things where in the abstract, you want one

thing to happen but you see it was pretty magical. i thought he did just a beautiful job enrolling the country behind the case. but at the same time, in a way that was not alienating. at his best, he has the gift to do that. >> and i also thought it was just incredibly adept and graceful in that as such never emerges. >> and that's exactly how most african americans live. we're conscious of race and the african american culture. but it's the sub text of our lives. >> it was interesting. i was waiting all week for him to say something about it. and i think there was a lot of pressure, whether overt or covert in the african american community for the president to say something. and i was also waiting for the republican candidates to say

something because this was actual news. illinois was like the birthplace of barack obama. and none of them said anything until after the president said something. i think it was very important. i think he was pitch perfect. poignant. he raised the conversation to a level where most american, regardless of race, gender or ethnicity could really understand that this could be anybody's son. >> it's interesting because we were talking about this yesterday. what has seemed to me about the case so far, and there's some -- i should note there's some exceptions to the rule there. but for the most part, you know, i remember when i was growing up in new york and there was this famous bernie goetz case who was a white guy on the subway who shot several black teenagers. it became like the o.j. trial in new york.

it was an incredibly polarizing event along race lines. and aside from yesterday, it doesn't seem like this is playing out in a similarly polarizing way. >> i think you're right, actually. i think this is a case that it looks so clear to people that this is an injustice. that is quite a relief to me, anyway, that we can all sort of agree that this kid should not have died and this person should be held responsible. i think that that crosses certain political barriers. the vast majority of the people that you can visualize are african american. but if you look closely, these are all races. it's all genders that are out there and protesting saying trayvon is my son. he could be anybody's son. >> it's an interesting case.

bernie goetz was being mugged. that's really a different case. it makes it less about crime, race and more about justice. the guy that killed him has not been arrested. this is michelle obama being asked in 2007, about a month after declaring canadidacy for president. this is what she said. >> the realities are, as a black man, bbarack can be shot going o the gas station. >> that's a sub text of why this moment has been so powerful is

the fear that hangs around black men in this country and the people who love them and are in their community that there's going to be a mistake. >> i think a lot of people, a lot of whites don't realize it's not about whether you or an individual ranked zimmerman. but i don't think anyone seriously knows the difference if he was white, he would still be alive. race absolutely plays into it. >> how do we talk about that factual, the first one. that is the layer of injustice. i think we have a moral intuition that that's exactly right. we know he has called 9-1-1 a whole bunch. so it shows you a little bit about the mind set. but his attorney said exactly that.

>> his parents have come out and said, you know, people are saying he's white, he's hispanic. but his parents are saying he's hispan hispanic, he has black friends, he could never be racist. >> even if he isn't, he could be racist. >> incidentally, is scared of any black man wearing a hoodie. >> i remember being in chicago when a black teenager was shot, again, with one of these incidents that you see where an unarmed black teenager was shot. and so it was the same dynamics without necessarily the individual level. but that hangs to the black male, no matter who the viewer is. >> as we were reading through the papers on the break today, the first cop they showed is sean bell. the black guy.

he depot fired. i don't think anybody -- >> when he came out. my son is not a racist. >> look, i don't want to do any mapped reading, but one of the things that happens here is we have this notion of racism as trolls who live under the bridge, people who active ly think about that. there's another racist in a broad or con following the accident shul society. that is absolute sympathy for some people. >> who do you see as the other and who do you see -- who do you, as i was talking about, who do you extend empathy towards? i want to talk about the legal foundation. you've done great reporting.

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♪ not only is trayvon martin's killer walking the streets, he's still allowed to do so with his gun. the other florida law you've probably heard about that factors into the killing of trayvon martin is the standard kbround law. the law allows them to use deadly force in a place they're legally about to be without first attempting retreat, hence the term stand your ground, despite critics warning it could put the public at greater risk. then florida governor signed it into law.

justified homicides in florida are up since stand your ground was signed into law. and you can see the number went from 33, 2006 back up to 105 in 2009. we don't have data for 2009 yes. lilyana, i think they kind of flew under the radar, frankly. how did this come about? what is the sort of genesis of these kinds of laws? >> there's a long history of self defense laws that go back to this idea of this castle doctrine which is an old english law. the idea that your home is your castle. you have the right to defend it. >> it's a common law principle that you can invoke without any pass in the state. >> precisely. that's why it's called the castle law, like in texas. so the idea was, you know, but these laws, what they were trying to do is expand -- broaden the circumstances in

which you can use lethal force to defend not just your home or property, but yourself in any situation. this was extended to your car -- not just your car or things that you own, but in the case of florida, i mean, florida was, by far, the most per misive. >> it was there's a few important points to hit home which the defenders want to invoke is a common law principle that this statutorily enlargens. it widens the scope of. first of all. second of all, you now see the people who helped push the law through. the actual police say the reason they didn't arrest him at the scene was because of the stand your ground law which sounds like a lame excuse except for the fact that the provisions in the law were so extreme.

listen to this, this is a law professor. and he wrote a great post about this. he said that the law provides that a person who uses deadly force in self defense is immune from criminal prosecution. this odd provision means that a person who uses deadly force in self defense cannot be tried even though the highly fact-intensive question of whether the person acting in self v defense is usually hashed out in trial. the state must make a highly complexed factual determination. it also prohibits the probable cause which is, again, a bizarrely intensive factual determination. >> it gets even worse. the law, as it's written, says police cannot even detain a suspect until there's probable cause. if zimmerman said i was afraid for my life, he could have

walked away, legally. and the police can say sir, stop. we want to ask you a few questions and he could have said no. the law is even worse. the people who wrote the families talk about the spirit of it. i'm a little bit simp they wantic to that. they have to talk about the law they actually wrote. the law makes police liable if they make a mistake. >> simply liable. that's another thing. >> the burden is so on police not to question somebody. that is how the law is written. that's what the police did. it's still bad policing. but what do you expect when you write this dumb law? >> i have to play devil's advocate. i take a look at the statue, i take a look at the law. clearly there's some problems with it. but there is nothing in what you just read to us that stops a police officer from saying who is allegedly fearful in their life what happened.

explain what happened to me when you blew trayvon martin away. nothing in the law can hold a police officer liable for asking that question. you can make a determination of probable cause long before you get to court. it is the jury's decision to make sure that that arrest was proper, legal and constitutional. >> and we should also say that after -- it certainly seems to me that after the 9-1-1 tapes surfaced, it's clearly the case that you can show up at the guy's house and arrest him. try zyrtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. zyrtec®. love the air. chocolate lemonade ?

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in lisa graves. good morning, lisa. >> good morning, chris. >> so you've been doing really kbraet work tracking these laws and the ways in which they have sort of moved throughout the country. how -- what is the kind of vector of infection, if you will, using that et logical term. how has this happened? >> well, this is really a case study in how the american legislative exchange council works. h is a bill that was literally conceived of by paid nra lobbyist, pushed through the legislature of florida through the heavy hand and influence of the nra. the nra lobbyist pitched that bill to a closed meeting that was cochaired by walmart. that committee, the alec chit tee on criminal justice, unanimously approved this bill

becoming a model bill, a template for laws across the country. and that's just what happened. in the last five years, this law has spread like wild fire through the states at the behest of legislators and at the behest of the nra. this is a very wreckless law and this law is, in essence, a seawards of tragedies. >> in fact, there have been others. and i want to play a little bit of tape that lilyana, i first came across this case in your reporting. it has to do with the texas stand your ground law. this happens in november, 2007. it's a few months after the law goes into effect. the law goes into effect september 1st. this is joe horn who, throughout the call, is basically saying i'm going to go shoot him. and the dispatcher is saying do

not go shoot them. no piece of property is worth shooting someone over. and this is what happened. >> mr. horn, i want you to listen to me carefully, okay. the announcer is coming out there and i don't want you to go inside that house. and i don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around there. >> i understand that. but i have a right to protect myself, too, sir, do you understand that? and the laws have been changed in this country. you know it and i know it. i have a right to protect myself. and a shotgun is a legal weapon. >> there it goes. you hear the shotgun click and i'm going. >> don't go outside. >> boom, you're dead. >> both of those men were killed. joe horn was not even arrested. or he was arrested briefly and then let go. >> so a year after that happened, he was cleared by a grand jury.

so he definitely got off. >> it's absolutely relevant that these men were black. so in texas, you know, if the color of their skin didn't criminalize then, then they were complicatedized by their imgags status. >> the nra and alec, have they partnered before? >> oh, this is no anomaly. the nra is a long standing member of alec. they pushed through a number of bills just this passed alec session that were part of the model bills. many of those bills are being introduced all across the country, not just in this area, which the nra likes to call the castle doctrine in which alec scores legislators and states on whether they pass this thing. it's not about self defense.

this is about shoot first. and this is a situation through alec members he said and then the other guy is dead. you tonality have a witness who can counter a claim. >> i want to talk about the sort of political soil in which the seeds of this have been planted. and what this says about sort of the culture of paranoia right after we take this break. doers. here's to more saturdays in the sun. and budgets better spent. here's to turning rookies into experts, and shoppers into savers. here's to picking up. trading up. mixing it up. to well-earned muddy boots and a lot more spring per dollar. more saving. more doing. that the power of the home depot. break out the gardening gloves. miracle-gro garden soil is now 3 bags for 10 bucks.

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>> that's former nra president

who is the lobbyist who wrote the florida bill. one newspaper account describes her staring down lawmakers. what i think is so interesting, there's two aspects that i find interesting. one is the fkt that basically, the nra after 2001, democrats basically gave up on gun control. it was a huge issue people felt that al gore had lost gun control. and there was basically a total victory. they had a huge fund raising operation. they got these fancy operations outside washington, d.c. so what they have to do is come up with ever more extreme pieces of legislation to justify their own positions, right? they're no longer battling defensively gun control because there's not that much going on. this is the result of the nra

needing to kind of make themselves relevant because they have to push the envelope more and more. >> i'm not a huge fan of the nra. and what this woman just said is sort of scary. but if you put yourself in the position of an unreasonable person, if you are in your home, i want the right to be able to protect my life and the life of my children. if that means blowing them away, you should have the right to do that. everyone is angry with the nra. we should see that there are organizations all over the country. these people are not elected by anyone to do what they do. they cannot force legislators to pass these laws. it's the legislators. >> lisa, will you respond to that? that's precisely what this law does.

you have a right in every single state across the country. this is saying you should have vigilante injustice out on the streets. that's what happened in florida. it's a natural result of this law. it's the type of situation that the hired lobbyist dismised as hysterical. it's not hysterical. and alec is the vehicle, one-stop shopping for groups like the nra which helped bankroll alec which creates these model bills in part who are funded by the nra or who fear that the nra will attack them with these enormous funds. and, quite frankly, this is, exactly as you say, chris, hysterical is a situation in search of a problem because you already have a right of self defense.

and they have the political muscle to do it. >> let me make one more point just on that. basically, lobbying is giving the subsidy to the lawmakers that you support. that is the time, effort, brain power, technical expertise of crafting a bill. it's incredibly important at the state level. so when someone comes in and says we've got these experts on gun laws and they've written it up, don't you worry about it, that is very powerful. that's a really powerful thing. one of the sub texts is we would all be better off with larger staffs of state reps and state senators.

that sounds like a really technical place to give up. but i think that's part of what's going on here. >> it's driven by how you want to proceed. lisa grace, long time alec tracker, thanks so much. we really appreciate it. [ male announcer ] we got a real mom

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>> i don't know about you, but i want justice. i want justice. >> i want justice.

>> trayvon. >> some really powerful footage. occupy has been doing some soul searching during its winter hibernation. in some respects, occupy may be comparable to a sort of computer system a guest on the list of the show argued that occupy in the march writing this. when occupy first got the national pot light, they were so worried about the cooption of their message, they had no problem with others. in d.c., their goal was to get arrested. in new york city, they seemed less concerned with marching and more concerned with occupying as much space as possible.

there was a lot of response to this. i thought it was really interesting because we've come into the spring and we're going to see a lot more occupy activity and there's this constant question of what it is and what the core of it is. you can't put that sign up. i sort of hit something that there was a sub text for a lot of what was happening, which i think is a little bit of racial distrust happening in terms of the way that black folks were looking at occupy, and, obviously, i'm generalizing here. >> i think there's a they believe in electoral politics.

they believe voting is very important. you talk about the stand your ground law, we're talking about legislation. ultimately, we're talking about who we're going to elect to have the laws in the country. occupy has always had a distant relationship. if we look at the case, what we are able to exemplify and show the whole nation is we're worried about staying alive. occupy wall street doesn't seem to get that. it's an example of old feminist

conversations about whether or not women should stay home and work. we don't have a choice. >> let me just speak up for occupy for a moment, which is that i think you would find that there's a wide range of folks within occupy. >> absolutely. and have been very committed to racial justice. i think there's some cultural mistrust. >> whoa, whoa, whoa, what did i say? >> what you said is i think is exactly the problem. every time you raise a criticism, someone says but that's not occupy. occupy on some level is about change. and the trayvon issues are about rule of law. to me, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum. it is sort of rude for occupy to come in and talk about their

agenda. no, as they were saying, this is what want the rule of law to apply to us. i think occupy is also about justice. in september, it was very striking in new york right after the trey davis execution. protesters were out in new york with activists i know well joining up with occupy. this is very early in occupy's short history. it wasn't about what they saw as a miscarriage of justice. >> let me stitch this together. i think there's an inequality or a bunch of inequalities in our society. one is the application.

how about the foreclosures on people's houses where the bank is coming and taking your property away from you. if one of them got shot, you want to think that person who shot them is going to go to jail. that is the core of this that people feel and sense a fundamental inequality of accountability. more on that after this. oh. let's go. from the crack, off the backboard. [ laughs ] dad! [ laughs ] whoo! oh! you're up! oh! oh! so close! now where were we? ok, this one's good for two. score! [ male announcer ] share what you love with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes. they're gr-r-eat! ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪

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there's another way litter box dust:e purina tidy cats. tidy cats premium line of litters now works harder on dust. and our improved formulas neutralize odors better than ever in multiple-cat homes. so it's easier to keep your house smelling just the way you want it. purina tidy cats. keep your home smelling like home. >> good morning from new york. i'm chris hains from the bernard center for public policy. >> it acts as a good tease. that's a provocative title. more than a dozen blocks away.

according to the new york times, sims says about 30 police officers suddenly surrounded her. for any protesting had even taken place, sims says the officers arrested them and took them back to the station where they were strip searched and their request for a lawyer were ignored. she was asked about her personal history or relationship and plans for upcoming protest. this is part a larger story that's taking shape about how the new york police department that's transformed itself into something resembling a domestic operation on muslim groups in the tristate area including schools. yesterday, their report has been using counter terrorism tactics not just in new york, as far

away as officers monitoring the people's summit in 2008 noted with a little bit of irony here, activists from the coalition were in attendance and presented several documents based on the alleged profiling and the injustices that people have acrows the country by their respective police departments. those documents are super shocking because they're united like joe familiarity of the international con sol day who is -- he was quoted in the times as talking about one of the events where they were talking about the human right tis festival. it seems that mayor bloomborg has a standing army. >> so i thought he was right. >> so in 2003, federal court sort of lifted the bars that had been in place on what the nypd

could do and not do in terms of this kind of reconnaissance and intelligence. and now we're seeing the fruits of that. this has been taught in history a million times. when you give an inch, bureaucracies like this tend to take a mile. surprisingly, i would like to get your thoughts as we hear about the scope and expansiveness of the nypd in this respect. >> i don't know what the scope is. they haven't told me that information yet. but i would like to throw out there, what do we have? i don't mind the police showing up around there. what are they doing with this information? how do they pick the people that they're monitoring? if they go to a meeting and say nothing is up and that is that, i don't have a problem with

that. now if it's monitoring on no cause, those things i don't know. but i don't want them doing nothing, either. >> i think we have a little sound of him. you're deflating peaceful atrekked in that sort of a fundamental issue. >> occupy wall street movement are not terrorists. they are not enemies of the state. why are the police treating them as such? >> and that seems to me to be the issue there. i mean, at the same time, there is this degree to which a critical conference is a public event, right? anyone can go. so is there a problem if one of those people who shows up as a police officer who doesn't

identify himself as such? >> i think it speaks volumes that in the case here, you have people who came out who planned actions around the sean bell verdictic. it's no coincidence that these are all racial justice groups. what does that say about who's considered a potential terrorist. >> i don't want to scare you, but those aren't the only people that they're looking at. >> i want to get to a deep question about policing, which is this. there has been a real shift in the philosophy of police, i would say, in the last 10 or 15 years when you look at the literature on this and this sort of famous author who recently passed away.

one of the ways in which policing can prevent the crime before it happens. we all think that's kind of sensible. they found all of these ways. but this also seems to me part of sliding down that slippery slope. if the idea is to prevent something before it happens, well then you necessarily, you think, find yourself in this intelligence gathering. >> let's not forget that, in theory, the new york city police department is a civilian organization. it's important we all take that into account. they are under democratic control through the elected mayor. i know this is a little bit removed, but we, as a people, have to remember this. we can tell the police what to do for a democratic rah cess and we should. if we don't offer more constructive criticism, we need to stop telling them what to do. tell me what to do.

that's a fair question to ask. >> don't spy on critical resistance. >>. >> ray kelly has boasted that nypd has the capacity to shoot down a helicopter. it sounds good in theory, but there's no oversight. the nypd is doing it and there's no one who i think is checking -- >> that's right. let me just say for the democratic accountable ility to work, you have to know what's happening. no one can say don't go spy on muslim kids in elementary school if they don't know that muslim kids in elementary schools are being spied on.

>> this also conflicts with ray kelly's passed statements. it's not publicly nuts. that's just very, very disturbing. what specific crime do you commit when you're out whitewater rafting. >> the police have it really very hard. you know, how do we balance out the interest of what we want the police to do versus individual liberty. but the more and more we talk about it, the more and more we see that regardless of what we are talking about, we are getting into very serious issues of racial, ethnic and religious profiling. we see it in immigration laws, in georgia, in alabama, we're beginning to see it in every aspect of our lives. that's a very serious problem. >> and i think a big part of this is the fabric of trust that does or does not exist.

and i think there's a big difference about what that trust looks like and how that could lead to good policing. more on crime, justice accountability and who pays. life sentences for 14-year-olds. the lawyer who argued against that for the supreme court right after this. or the to-do list .

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>> part of what is driving the out rage is the fact that his killer has not had to face the law. the background context is a country in which so many young black boys, so many teens that look like trayvon martin, that

look like the sun of the president if he had one, do have to face the law. the supreme court has to consider how we as a society should think about the culpability and ultimately the redeemability of minors who commit crimes. life in prison for the 14-year-old defendants. together, the two cases raise the question whether it is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a minor to life in prison without the possibility of parole. you're dealing with a 14-year-old being sentenced to life in prison so he will die in prison without any hope. essentially, you're making a 14-year-old a throw away person.

>> welcome. i told you this off camera, i'll tell you on camera. i thought you did a great job. this is your fifth supreme court argument, if i'm not mistaken. maybe just take us through the core cases. they are quite different in terms of the facts of each case. and they're both pretty grizzly. >> yeah, the united states supreme court has recognized that punishment for children should be distinguished for punishment from adults. that there's a difference in culpability. two years ago, the court also concluded that a death in prison sentence was unconstitutional for children convicted of nonhomicide defenses. and so now the question is should that same protection be

extended to children who commit homicides. and when kids make bad judgments, they're not crime specific, they're really no different than the kids who commit nonhomicides we talk about the ways we're sort of wrestling through that and in one encouraging trend would be supreme cou supreme court jurisprudence. justice kennedy wrote the majority in both of those. the issue, it seems to me here, is -- and the issue in all three cases, you get down to this very intense, philosophical question. when does the magical thing happen that turns a child into an adult?

socrates has this line about how many pieces of hair make a beard. and so you're sort of dealing with that. >> we deal with this in a variety of context. we have all kinds of laws that restrict what kids can do. we're actually letting kids drive too young. we're going to increase the age before we actually give you that kind of power. we impose greater responsibility and we deny you privileges and choices. we started putting tens of thousands of children into adult

prisons, began in the late 1980s and the early 1990s. a so called superpredator, one of the weakest in our case was signed by john. >> it's a cultural and political context that local states starting doing more of trying juveniles as adults. there was a central case in new york which led to this hysteria about wilding that they were rampaging again. >> well, it essentially says what most parents know. you know, kids have difficulty thinking three steps ahead. they're impulse eave.

>> any parent has said what are you thinking? the difference for this population of kids is that they're living in violence that are very violent. >> we know that kids have these external. you can't leave. a 14-year-old doesn't have the option of getting it out to the neighborhood with drugs and guns. but you really can't think about the culpability the same way you think about adults.

and so we've asked the court to recognize that. >> it's worth noting you talked about the philosophical questions, even if we prevail in these cases, the united states will still have the harshest sentencing laws for children in the world. a huge margin. we're talking about potentially life with parole for which i shall as young as 12 or 13 years of age. and that puts us in a really unique category. >> and, in fact, when we're dealing with the nonhomicide case of all of the 13 and 14-year-old children who have been sentenced to die, all of them will die.

>> some children are not going to redeem themselves or rehabilitate themselves. so that plays into this consciousness that it's okay to throw them away. and part of what we're trying to fight for is this idea that we're all having this notion that we would tolerate this notion is very much a threat. >> and it strikes me reading through the oral arguments, you're trying to resuscitate rehabilitation as a notion in how we think about punishment. >> didn't he say that to you? >> there was a question about that. and you're right. we think that our society has

become way too helpless about everyone. certainly about our kids. i mean, these children will change. there's no dispute about that. so we're thinking in ways that are contradictly. but beyond that, i think we've really undermined the health of our society by our willingness to be so helpless. one of the things that breaks my heart is when i worked with young kids, they're 13 and 14 and tell me they believe they're going to be dead or in prison under 21. >> i i do want to play a daughter of the vac tim in the miller case who was beaten by a baseball bat. >> he is unremorseful to this

day and it's almost nine years later. when you have sociopathic tendencies and you're not remorseful for your crime, then he doesn't deserve to be out. >> i think that gets to the deep core way. more about the 8th amendment, what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment right after we take this break. [ male announcer ] this is genco services -- mcallen, texas. in here, heavy rental equipment in the middle of nowhere, is always headed somewhere. to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment knows where it is, how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

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without parole for children as young as 14. i want to turn to jurisprudence more. it's cruel and unusual punishment. those are two very different notions. cruelty on the one and something being unusual. how has the court come to understand that? >> i think you're right. it's a challenging concept that the court has also read into the 8th amendment, this notion that there are evolving standards of decency. so what makes punishment unusual isn't that it's new. it could have been around for a long time. so what they tend to do is to look a lot at the incident of the punishment. if there's a lot of people who have gotten a certain kind of punishment against it being unusual, if there's a lot of

states that embrace the punishment, that's an argument that's against being unusual. >> so we were talking about the children with homicides and that most states have never condemned a 14-year-old in prison and that we're the only people in the world that have kind of satisfied that unusual requirement. and then the cruelty part comes in when you think about what this punishment reflects. and our argument was essentially to say that any child of 14 that you're fit to dying in prison is cruel. based on what we know about child status. based on what we know about child development and our capacity to recover kids who have done some horrible things.

one of the things we had last time was a former offender who included child soldiers, done horrible things. a horrible juvenile history. a lot of people who turn their lives around and some of them the most effective advocates for the risks that we have in our society. you make a case for flogging. i wonder if it's on unusual punishment factors in to how expansively we can think about what we should be doing? >> the point of what i'd like to say is i'm not actually pro flogging, i'm pro-choice.

no matter what the problem is, prison seems to be the answer and it doesn't work. we need to think about it in some ways. we also need to think about rehabilitation. but that's not going to happen in prison. people need help. that's how you prevent crime. that's how you prevent destroyed lives. >> i do think that there are all kinds of things that we could be doing that are an alternative. >> i don't favor humiliating people. and i think any time the punishment scheme that reinforces that you're less than, that you are no more than your worst act actually contributes to the kind of criminality that we're trying to prevent.

. in too many communities, you know you're going to be harassed by the place. you know you're going to be accused wrongly. you know that there's this presumption of guilt following you. we have to challenge that. >> yeah, i want to ask you to sort of bring us back to where this conversation today started with martin and the stand your ground laws. it's defense of what is ours and violence towards someone that violates that. how do we begin to tern that around? it's so easy. when you look at what the state

legislatures are doing, it's a lay-up for the state legislature to take a crime that is absolutely unquestionably heinous. i will tell you particularly in the miller case, they are really hard to reed. >> the problem that we've had is bad crimes being turned into bad policy. and that's incarceration and stand your ground laws, make my day laws and all of these appeals are the product of politics of fear and anger.

virtually, every politician is guilty of kind of appealing to people's their and anger. when people are afraid and they're angry, they do things that are abusive. every context from genocide, we will create situations like with trayvon martin. and what's problematic is we're arrogant about our history. what's problematic about it is it continues this disconnect with lives of color. we've never talked about the history of lynching because of the way they are and the way they appear. so because of that, there is the tension. when we talked about the stand your ground laws and then we

allow someone to kill somebody with imprune punty, we are can i be thing. >> brian stevenson, founder of the equal justice initiative. brian, you have to tune in because brian is as compelling as they come. and we will be here tuesday night at nine and talk more about this topic. thank you. really, it is a pleasure. [ female announcer ] with swiffer wet

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and the discoalition of life without parole. it's no coincidence that sullivan and graham came out of florida. a huge percentage of those cases came out of florida. something like 77 of them. so, again, you've got the disproportionate rep sened within the them. >> i wanted to bring it back to trayvon martin because we ended up there naturally. but i think there's a hopeful part of this story which is the fact that this has seized the national attention. and it was because people cared. it was from the change with a woman from maryland.

color of change. so you sort of covered this from the beginning. and i sort of wonder what you make of how this happened? >> it's remarkable. and it's especially remarkable about issues of justice about the police, african americans, black and brown people and people who are just pretending to be the flies. police. people who think that they are the police. >> i am shocked. i learned about this a week and a half or two weeks. and one reason i could write about it, it just gets so depressing after a while. let me just add, also, as sad and as tragic as this has been, one of the things that has been wonderful watching the nation

come together is that really all of this started with the attention that started in the black media. black radio host. black television programming. they brought the mainstream media and helped build around this tragic story. >> i'm 40 years old and i can't remember a case in my lifetime where this isn't a lack of justice. i thought we finished this in the '60s where there simply is no us tis. i think for a lot of people with my generation, it's shocking to see this happen. >> can i ask you a personal question? i don't want to embarrass you, but i think you're a phenomenal finish -- you're a phenomenal writer.

>> you're a phenomenal writer. you take it very earsly and you and i have had discussions about the medium. >> i felt like i had something to say. and i think in a lot of cases, writing and blogging is a learning experience. it's a back and forth between me and other writers. i am taking in as much as i'm giving out. it's a little harder to do that on tv. i have the right to be wrong in

a way you don't necessarily have when you're on it have. tv. >> i'm wrong all of the time. >> see, you acknowledge it right away. see, just now, i was wrong about that. you know, you're always getting clear and going through it. i looked up the law. do you think you should be arrested? you have as much opportunity to be a student as you do to be a professor. >> and i am not an internet, but i think it's impossible to look at what's happened to trayvon martin. there's been a variety of these sort of points in the news segment in the last four months. i think it's impa look at what's happened. to drive in the agenda as much as the media is sort of declaring what is important? and, to me, that's powerful and

really hopeful. i think we may see some equal arcs more forcefully towards justice. so what do we know that we didn't know last week? my answers after this. [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team. devry university, proud to support the education for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right,

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we won't rest until we have a cure. join us. go to alz.org. in just a second, i'll tell you what i didn't know before the week began. >> thanks, chris. like the rest of the country, we are focused on the trayvon martin story. and so today, we're going to have a group of experts to talk to us about what it's like to grow up like trayvon martin. and what i mean by experts is a panel of african american teen boys. they're kombic to be joining me next and we also have some grown ups who know a lot about this including the fiance of the late sean bell who was gunned down almost six years ago. also, it is election day in

louisiana today, my home state. and we'll talk about mitt romney's secret weapon. >> all right. melissa perry coming up next. >> we know now the critics were pressing when they warned governor jeb bush not to sign the law. it's how governor bush defended the law at the time. >> when you're in a position where you're being threatened and there's a life-threatening situation to have to retreat and put yourself in a very precarious position, it defies common sense. >> we also know the number of justifiable homicides has app creased 25 times since 2005. we know that we're pushed by alec, the legislative exchange council and the national rifle association. we know that keeping the peace

is as core a state function as exists. and it's time to throw in the towel on the entire experiment. the so called d.c. bad boy reporter posted this interview of youtube's bono. >> you're not in charge of your own company? you have no say in what youtube does? >> not particularly. >> you don't? >> we know the video has since been taken down because that wasn't bono in the video but a bono impersonator. >> we know that unlike acorn, bono is lucky enough to remain in business. thanks to a prisoner from the chinese labor camp and fine relateing at the guardian newspaper, we know that the prisons of the labor camp were

force forced by the guards to work all night playing video games to acquire virtual money that could then be sold on the internet for real cash. >> we worked 12 hour shifts in the camp. i heard them say they could earn 5,000-6,000. we now know thanks to a new report from national women's law center that it costs a whole lot more to be a woman. they're charging women $1 million more. it's not due to maternity care even when maternity care is exempted. we also know the affordable care act ends this practice.

finally, public policy polling. we now know that public law professor has poked slightly ahead of scott brown, 46% to 41%. we know that this race is likely to be one of the closest and hotly contested in the entire country. we know the financial complex would love almost nothing more than seeing one defeated in the candidacy rerepresenting one of those rare opportunities to actually beat wall street. what do my guests know now they didn't know what the week began? we'll find out after this. perk push ♪

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>> track yes, the new album is out, and you should find it. and what do you know now, mr.

coates? >> well, i can come on to hear p.r. rock and smooth, and you pay some nice hip-hop. and beyond that aside, i learned that there's great wisdom on the internet. the trayvon martin case i found out about it as i said earlier, and weeks before i started writing about it, i went into one of the open threads on the comment section one day, and i saw that people were talking about it. it is very easy to get depressed about these issues and to feel like no one cares. i immediately realized that i had to jump on it. but there's a lot of times with those of us who cover this sort of thing get depressed that nobody cares and it is good to look up that somewhere somewhere does care. >> and lilia? >> well, as long as we learned about the surveillance case i learned thanks to charlie savage that the obama administration is lengthening the time to store data collected on americans, private data for the purpose of

nonterror investigations so that raises a lot of questions and i'm surprised that more people are not talking about it. >> charlie savage is a fantastic reporter at "the new york times" and covering the national security beat for a long time first for the "boston globe" and then to as a sipmentes of the bush administration to create loopholes in the duly elected laws and equally dogged the about the obama administration. and michelle bernard, what do you now know? >> that the federal government has finally and for the first time and let me look at the minutes the matthew shepard and james bird hate prevention crimes and first time three males in jackson, mississippi, plead guilty to horrible, horrible murder of african-american, and sadly because of all of the progress in the country, having the first african-american president in our nation's history, we still need a hate crimes prevention act, and it has to be from the fetd r federal level. >> and you know, our colleague

recently wrote about the bullying case at rutgers university, and the roommate who recorded secretly his gay roommate and had conflicted thoughts about the hate crime legislation about are we punishing the crime or the person committing the crime. and thank you for that, michelle. peter moscos? >> despite the criticism that the police have gotten in skr various cases, we should not forget the sack ri fooss they make. a police officer in 1987 was shot in the western district of baltimore and agent jeanne cassidy and lost 100% of his sight and smell, and taste. he went back to work and he taught in the academy and last week there was a blood drive for him, because he has n-state liver cirrhosis because of a transfusion he got after he was shot, so i am reminded to give blood and appreciate the sacrifice that people get.

>> and we were just talking about the empathy to politics and the opposite of empathy which is the fearmonger iing an the demagogic impulse, and it is to look over the divide that creates the mistrust of the immigrants and police, and to have trust for the people on the other side and for me it is indeed the police officers. >> and sometimes they need transplants. >> and it is hard to understand how to put that in systemic politics, but it is important to keep reminding yourself that there are human beings on the other side of that politics. my thanks to the panel. thanks for getting up and joining us for "up" and joining us next is melissa harris-perry, and join us next sunday morning at 8:00 as we will look at

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