kennedy has given approval to the affordable health care bill or not. we'll know what the fight is going to be like between june and november. it will be far better for the president if the supreme court approves what he's done, far better for the country. we'll have to see what comes of it and what does not. this is a daunting situation. that's the "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "politics nation with al sharpton" starts right now. welcome to "politics nation." i'm al sharpton. live from washington, d.c. tonight's lead, startling new details and new questions about what happened between the police and the prosecutors on the night trayvon martin was shot and killed, just over a month ago. breaking news today. the grio reports on february 26th, just hours after trayvon was killed, former police chief bill lee and the man who replaced him, sanford police

investigation supervisor captain robert o'connor, met in person with state attorney norman wolfinger. quote, on a typical case, police contact the state attorney's office and speak with an on duty assistant state attorney. rarely the state attorney, himself, or herself. so why would the state attorney meet face to face with police hours after trayvon's murder? what was so important or different about this case? the stunning news of the nighttime meeting comes a day after we learned that the lead homicide investigator wanted to arrest george zimmerman for manslaughter. the "miami herald" reports that sanford police department requested an arrest warrant for zimmerman from the state attorney's office, but the state attorney, norman wolfinger said no. quote, pending further review.

but it seems that review went nowhere, even though the 911 tape shows st s zimmerman went the high school student that night. >> [ bleep ]. they always get away. >> are you following him? >> yeah. >> okay. we don't need you to do that. >> okay. >> zimmerman was pursuing trayvon, even after being told not to. and trayvon knew he was being followed by a strange man. remember, trayvon's girlfriend was on the phone with him in the minutes leading up to his death. >> trayvon said the man was still following him and then i asked trayvon to run, then the man was just walking fast. following him comes up, walking to him like fast. >> we don't yet know the full

story of why george zimmerman was not arrested for pulling a trigger that night. instead, news of this meeting between the prosecutor and the police chief just raises more questions about how this case was handled and who it was handle differently than norm l procedures. joining me, joy-ann reid. across town in washington, martin family attorney benjamin crump. let me start with you, joy-ann. you broke a big story today. what makes this investigation different than most others? why would the head state prosecutor have to meet with police on this shooting? >> well, rev, i think what's important about this is that if what this source told me today is true, then we're seeing a much greater level of personal

involvement by the former state attorney in charge wolfinger, t previously knew. what we did learn today is, indeed, the police chief, the then police chief bill lee was on the scene along with his chief investigator, bob o'donnell, whose job it is to be on these scenes frankly because he's the chief of investigations. if you had chief lee, his chief investigator, and the state attorney conferring in person on this case, and then making the determination on the night of the shooting that there was not enough information, not enough evidence to arrest george sma t himself once the police department cycled this up to the state attorney's office. he is the state attorney for this county and the adjacent county. we also confirmed today, nbc news confirmed that there was what's called a capious request sent to wolfinger's office, which the police department made a formal request to issue an arrest warrant in the case.

wolfinger didn't get that far. because his investigation was cut short when he recused himself. he recused himself the same day bill lee stepped aside saying he didn't want to have the appearance of conflict of interest. that was never explained at the time. if this information turns out to be true, of course wolfinger is not talking, the state attorney's office is not talking, they're issuing us a new comment statement. if true, that would explain why he would recuse himself. >> you're saying the sanford police did request a warrant that was never executed, and that your sources are telling you there was, in fact, a meeting that night. well, how would they have known that night what the evidence was when it had just happened that night? >> that's the other question, rev, is what you have here is a case where at least one officer on the scene, the only homicide detective who actually was on the scene, this is the investigator, mr. serino, he interviewed george skzimmerman. based on the interview, he did

not believe zimmerman's story. there was an incident where zimmerman was taken back to the scene. they did a re-enactment. they looked at his clothing and took his gun. after the homicide detective talked to him, he didn't believe him. he did a written affidavit saying he didn't believe him and he should be arrested. >> ben crump, this could be a huge development if the source is correct. i mean, isn't this very unusual for the lead state attorney to come, himself, and meet with the head of the police and the head investigator the night of a murder? of a killing? >> reverend sharpton, it suggests to us what we've said all along. for whatever reasons, the police department and people at the top made a decision to say that we're going to assist george zimmerman in his self-defense claim. and it's so telling that the lead investigator did not believe what george zimmerman was saying.

when you add up these facts, it just doesn't seem to make sense. when you listen to the 911 tape from zimmerman, himself, and the phone records from trayvon's girlfriend, you know, you have him on that 911 call saying he's running. and you have that young lady on the phone saying he's following me. it's one of those things that that makes sense, that zimmerman pursued and stopped trayvon and he was the aggressive. now, why the state attorney was saying this is not enough makes absolutely no sense. >> now, ben, tracy, the father of trayvon said on a taping on this show that something didn't add up. let me show it to you. >> i just feel like it was a cover-up from the beginning.

honestly, i feel like they're hiding something. what is it they're hiding? i don't know. why they're protecting him so much, i have no idea. all i know is my kid is dead. he's not coming back. >> now, what becomes of people feeling a father just talking? now you see with this information coming out, sources from the police department, that there seems to be some real, real questions here. let me ask you this, something that doesn't make sense to me. we're told that the zimmerman side of the story was that he was beat, his head was being crashed by trayvon and that his nose was broken. wouldn't you think if the state prosecutor was there that night that they would have made him go to the hospital to document that he had a broken nose and these bruises? isn't it strange that if the

prosecutor was there, the police chief was there, chief investigator was there, that they didn't make this young man go to the hospital and document his wounds, or document his injuries? and also, if he had those amount of injuries, how clearheaded was he to give a statement that would convince them that it was all self-defense and that he, in fact, had done no wrong? i mean, a lot of this just does not add up to me. >> and you're right, reverend sharpton. it doesn't add up. it's one of those things that you would think if he was as injured as they claimed in this second police report, because you remember in the first police report, they didn't put any of that in there. >> there were no injuries mentioned in the first police report, am i correct? >> none whatsoever, reverend sharpton. everybody in all the law enforcement community who reached out since this case started becoming part of the national dialogue said, if a person killed an unarmed person and they claim self-defense, if

i was the police, i would want to document all the evidence that either supported his claim for self-defense or disputed his claim for self-defense. and that's real important because we want to hold it up to say we're good police and we did our job. furthermore, when you look at the report, they said they didn't identify trayvon's body until the next morning with his father, but that report -- that first report shows it's been altered because you see at 3:07 a.m. they say they finished that report on february 27th. and on that report, it has trayvon's name, his address, and his phone number. so they had to change that report and maybe that was part of what was going on with the high-up people, how we're going to get the story right. i have to say this, reverend sharpton, before we go on. that's an excellent shot where you have mr. tracy martin, his father, talking, in the community where it happened. those townhouses, you see that

grass and that sidewalk. that is a long way away from the street, and remember, even though zimmerman's story keeps changing, this armed vigilante, he said he attacked him at the car. the car's along way from where that's at. and so it is -- it just doesn't add up. it doesn't add up -- >> i tell you something else that doesn't add up to me, mr. crump, and joy-ann, is that if you just shot somebody that died, no matter what the circumstance, i would think you'd be traumatized. i would think you'd be rattled. especially if you were beaten and bruised as he claims. to say that he gave such a clear description that night -- i know police that were involved in justified shootings that needed a couple of days to talk. this man was so clear that night he could convince a state prosecutor and police that he did no wrong and it was

self-defense? that's a whole lot to ask for somebody, given the circumstances they claim he had faced. >> absolutely. >> are you asking -- were you asking me? i was going to say, initially, too, the first officer on the scene who spoke to -- didn't interrogate, but folk to george zimmerman was a narcotics officer. he was put in the back of a patrol car, handcuffed and taken down to the police station. the guy who did the actual interrogation didn't believe his story. i think that's very important in this case. >> that's the point that we broke last night, with the abc report. benjamin crump and joy-ann reid, thank you both for your time tonight. this story keeps going and we're going to keep with it. ahead, trayvon martin was shot dead in the middle of a neighborhood, and there were witnesses, including a 13-year-old boy. >> okay. do you know the person who was shot or see the person who had the gun? >> no, i just heard a loud

gunshot sound and then the screaming stopped. >> we'll talk exclusively with that 13-year-old boy's mom in a live report and live interview next. plus, who is the state attorney, norm wolfinger, and why didn't he press charges? and another huge day for the health care industry and decision at the supreme court. we know republicans don't like obama-care, so what's their plan? all rig oh, right. they don't have one. you're watching "politics nation" live from washington on msnbc.

the mother of a 13-year-old eyewitness who called 911 that fateful night talks to us exclusively, next. and i thought "i can't do this,

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we're back with an exclusiv killed trayvon martin on february 26th, it didn't happen in a dark alley. it happened in the middle of a neighborhood. there were houses and witnesses all around. and trayvon's father told us when he walked with us back through the crime scene last week about that. >> as you can see, you know, if someone's here arguing, and your window's open right there, you can clearly hear, you know, the argument. one of these windows, i don't

know, which side, that they did actually hear the cries for help. >> in fact, there was seven 911 calls from witnesses that night. in one of the most dramatic calls, an 18-year-old girl called to say that her 13-year-old brother had seen the shooting while he was out walking their dog. here's that 911 call. >> my brother said someone got shot behind our house. >> is your brother there right now? >> he's next to me. >> okay. can you give him the phone? what exactly did you see? >> i saw a man laying on the ground that needed help that was screaming and then i was going to go over there to try to help him but my dog got off the leash so i went and got my dog and then i heard a loud sound and then the screaming stopped. >> okay. then did you see the person get shot? >> no. >> okay. do you know the person who was shot or see the person who had the gun? >> no, i just heard a loud

gunshot sound and then the screaming stopped. >> i head a gunshot and the screaming stopped. the screaming stopped. and so did a young life. joining me now is sheryl brown, the mother of the witness you just heard on that 911 call. she's here with her lawyer, alicia adamson. sheryl, that must have been a traumatic night for your children and for you. what did your son see that night? >> the story that he told me immediately following the shooting was pretty much what he said on the 911 tape. he was out walking the dog, and he was drawn to the back of the house because he heard the screams for help. and he noticed someone laying on the ground. it was dark, so he doesn't have a lot of detail about that

person, but he, as he said, he wanted to go help and unfortunately he has a lot of guilt about that, which is another tragic part of this whole story, but -- >> wow. >> the dog pulled away from him in the opposite direction, and when he turned around to get the dog, he headed back toward where he could see the person laying down, but before he could get there is when he heard the gunshot and then as you had stated, then the screaming stopped. >> the screaming stopped after he heard the gunshot. now, some media reports are claiming your son's eyewitness account supports zimmerman's claim. does your son think this was self-defense? >> not at all. >> he does not? >> no. >> so those media reports would be inaccurate and you've talked to your son? >> absolutely. >> i mean, what can you tell

us -- i know your attorney's there, so she will stop you if i go over the line. what can you tell us of your son's general impressions and feelings were? >> i mean, aside from what he -- the fact the of what he actually saw, his feelings were that the cries for help that he heard were from, you know, a young person and he only saw one person. he never saw two people, so there was no struggle that he saw. i don't know -- >> he only saw one person when they were laying on the floor? >> correct. >> so he never saw a struggle on the floor? he never saw someone beating somebody's head into the ground? >> no, he did not see anything like that. >> and this was only moments before he heard the gunshot? >> correct. he -- he thinks that he's -- he thinks that he viewed the body laying there for about ten seconds before the dog pulled away.

he got the dog, turned back around, took a few steps back toward where he would have been able to see the body laying there again, but before he could get back there is when he heard the gunshot, but the entire time he -- the screaming and the sounds continued until the gunshot. >> when did investigators talk to your son? >> they talked to him on march 5th, monday march 5th. >> monday march 5th. >> correct. >> so from february 26th to monday march 5th, the investigators did not talk to your son? >> correct. they did attempt -- they first came to the house and i was not there on friday march 2nd. and we scheduled for them to meet with him that following monday. so between the 26th and march 2nd, there was absolutely no police contact, no one came to our house, no one called. >> wait a minute. so your son and daughter had

called 911, made the report, said what they saw and heard, and from february 26th when the call was made, to march 2nd, you never heard from police or investigators? >> absolutely nothing. and i -- i just assumed that there was other witnesses that saw the entire incident, so possibly what my son saw was not of relevance. i thought maybe i was thinking, you know, overreacting, but i thought that i was waiting every day for someone to come knocking on the door, but it didn't happen. >> now, when they did start questioning your son after this period of time that i'm saying is unusually long, given they were saying there was no evidence and all, how did they question your son? did they question him, in your opinion, in a way that seemed like they were trying to get to the truth, or did they seem like they were trying to connect dots

with other witnesses, or were they trying to direct your son to questions that they wanted answered a certain way? i'm giving you three or four different things, in my mind, but you tell me. how were they questioning your son? >> i mean, honestly, i'm not an expert in how to question a witness -- >> right. >> -- but i feel knowing my son and knowing -- i was present when they questioned him. i just don't feel that it was done properly. i think there were some tactics used to maybe suggest some things to him that may be leading him to say certain things that weren't exactly what he would have told if he just were able to talk without them intervening or suggesting anything. >> when you say leading things, can you give me an example?

>> well, for example, they asked austin if he could tell the race of the person laying on the ground. he said he could not see the color of their skin. they then proceeded to ask if he knew the color of the shirt that the person was wearing. and then they proceeded to give him options of what color that shirt could have been. i don't feel that they should have done that. i think they should have just let him tell the story with as much detail as he could remember. they suggested maybe it was black, maybe it was white, maybe it was red. i don't think that that is information he would have been able to provide, especially since he said it was so dark that he couldn't see the color of the skin.

>> your arranging and talking to you around the interview of your son, did they tell you whether they felt this was self-defense or not? >> the lead investigator from the sanford police department stood in my family room and told me this was absolutely not self-defense and they needed to prove it. he told me, i'm paraphrasing this quote, but read between the lines. there are some stereotyping going on here. >> wait a minute. let me get this again right. the lead investigator stood in your family room in your house and told you this was not self-defense? and this was stereotyping and you should read between the lines? >> correct. >> meaning what? that, i mean, what did you take from that? >> i took it to mean that -- he

even mentioned, i have kids, myself. and he seemed upset and angered by it, and that he needed to prove that this wasn't self-defense. >> this was the lead investigator? >> correct. from the sanford police department. >> wow. so he felt there was stereotyping, as i would call profiling. >> correct. i would also. >> and he said that he did not believe this was self-defense? the lead investigator? >> correct. >> cheryl brown, i really appreciate you coming on tonight with this exclusive interview. thank you, alicia adamson, attorney for allowing her to come. thank you both for your time tonight. >> you're welcome. thank you. ahead, who is state attorney norm wolfinger? and what was he thinking the night of trayvon's shooting? and smearing the victim. i've seen this playbook before,

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you just heard stunning news from the mother of an eyewitness saying the lead investigator told her he did not believe the case of trayvon martin was self-defense and it was stereotyping. we'll talk about that more,

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welcome back. the mother of a witness on the night trayvon martin was killed says the lead investigator told her self-defense was not applicable here. and a meeting later that night between the state's attorney and the chief of police, we have a lot to talk about. on this case. joining me now is ryan, a democrat running to replace norm wolfinger as state attorney for the 18th district when he retires this fall. also, with me is criminal defense lawyer and former u.s. attorney, kendall coffey. thank you for both being here tonight. >> thank you, reverend. >> kendall, let me go to you. you were listening to the interview with the mother of the witness i just did. >> i'm stunned. i'm trying to absorb it.

you have an extremely credible woman. i applaud her courage for coming on the show. her son's courage for making the 911 call. what she said could be explos e explosive. she said that the lead investigator did not believe self-defense. and remember, we've been hearing weeks about how the police department didn't think there was probable cause. well, the guy that knew the most and was on the scene thought there should have been an arrest. that's pretty clear. and his comment about stereotyping is going to send off shockwaves in some places. so this was really important. i think that you're going to see a lot of things happening, i hope, i hope the lead investigator doesn't get all kinds of heat from his own department because apparently he had for that moment in time, at least the courage to speak his mind, and your interviewee, that mother, had important and impressive courage in telling the truth. >> now, let me say this,

kendall. you must remember, now, last night we reported there was an affidavit filed saying that he felt there was enough to arrest, and he wanted an arrest. now we hear a witness saying the same person, independent of this affidavit, told her this in a house. let me play it one more time. it just happened here on "politics nation." this is her, a mother of an eyewitness that called 911 that night. now, as the investigator communicating with you and arranging and talking to you around the interview of your son, did they tell you whether they felt this was self-defense or not? >> the lead investigator from the sanford police department stood in my family room and told me this was absolutely not self-defense and they needed to prove it. he told me, and i'm paraphrasing this quote, but read between the lines, there's some stereotyping going on here. >> so you have the affidavit,

kendall, and now you have this young lady whose 13-year-old son called with his sister that night, really saying the same thing and clearly we had no way of knowing what she was going to say in this exclusive interview. this could be a real bombshell on all of those that were arguing that night it was just a feeling of police there, this was self-defense, and those that were raising the question of racial profiling were just race baiting here, when she said the lead investigator said there's stereotyping, read between the lines. >> yeah, i mean, that's why it was so compelling, and you and i know, we listened to her. i believe everything she said. i think that's exactly what was said inside her home. and i think we have to begin to look at this case in a more serious way about what happened inside the investigation. what was the police chief doing?

where did the state attorney go in terms of apparently deciding fairly early on before a complete investigation was done that he wasn't going to make a charging decision? because remember, in the state of florida, the prosecutor, the reason they get the big bucks, is they're supposed to make the difficult decisions on whether to bring charges. instead, apparently the state attorney's office decided we're not going to allow a probable cause arrest to be made in short term, and by the way, we're not going to make the decision here, we're going to hand it off to a grand jury. those are the kind of things that, frankly, invite a lot of second guessing, legitimate questions to be raised and questions to be answered. >> now, ryan, you're running to replace the outgoing state prosecutor here. what do you think -- you're not running against him, i understand, he's retiring. what do you think of him meeting that night with the police chief and him really denying, as we

are told in reports if sources are correct, the request of the lead investigator to arrest this man and charge him with manslaughter? >> well, i think the biggest thing that we've seen so far in this case is the state attorney, three weeks after that initial night, sought to claim this case as a conflict of interest and really pass the buck. because as kendall said, he didn't want to make the tough decision. you know, reverend, incompetency is not a conflict of interest. when the person in charge of seeking equal justice in our community goes into an investigation, the very moment with colored glasses on already, he's not going to see the full picture. he's not going to communicate. that's what we've seen in this case. that's why not only this community, but this nation is so broken in such a lack of trust with our criminal justice system because of the actions of this state attorney. >> now, ryan, i've met a lot of people, obviously i've been to sanford a few times now. i've met a lot of people, white and black, who are decent people

that just want to see the truth out, whether it's the truth as i believe it or the truth as others on the other side of this debate believe it. there's only going to be one truth. but don't you think when you hear an affidavit from the lead investigator, we're reporting, and now you hear a witness' mother from the lead investigator, saying what he told her, isn't this disturbing and at least doesn't it make a lot of the residents of sanford understand why so many of us are outraged, saying that this should have been handled differently? no matter where it led, clearly there's something wrong going on here. >> not only is a violent crimes prosecutor, but as a resident in this community, i was born and raised in this community. it troubles me deeply that we can't trust that there is competent people running our prosecutor's office, and that this community questions whether every single person is getting the same equal justice. and the worst part about this

whole situation is that all of this has occurred due to a blatant lack of communication. if the state attorney is going to claim that this was a self-defense claim, which by law he would have to find george zimmerman's account for credible than that of trayvon martin and what the evidence has shown thus far, then we owe it -- the community is owed that the state attorney explain why he is siding on zimmerman's side. he's failed to do that. >> ryan vescio and kendall coffey, thank you both for your time tonight. >> thanks, reverend. >> thank you, reverend. ahead, i've seen this playbook over and over again. the plan to smear trayvon is one of the old tricks, and we won't let them get away with it. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. monarch of marketing analysis.

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to the gulf coast. benefiting hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country. this is just what our economy needs right now. welcome back to "politics nation." the health care of millions rests in the hands of the supreme court. today the argument was whether the law could survive even if the core individual mandate gets struck down. liberal justices argue there's too much good at stake to simply write the whole thing off, but conservatives on the court are bent at taking the ax to the whole thing.

>> my approach would say, if you take the heart out of this statute, the statute's gone. >> what you end up with at the end of that process is just sort of a hollow shell. >> a hollow shell. millions are already being h helped by this law, and you want to strike the whole thing? sounds like your friends in the republican party. >> the first item on the agenda of a new senate republican majority would be to repeal obama-care. >> the full-scale repeal of this abomination known as obama-care. >> repeal, repeal, repeal. what about a solution? what about people tdenied coverage because of pre-existing conditions? well, last night, jay leno was told, too bad, they're out of luck. >> you would make the law stand for children and people with pre-existing conditions? >> people with pre-existing conditions as long as they've been insured before, they're

going to be able to continue to have insurance. >> suppose they were never insured? >> if they're 45 years old and show up and say, we want health insurance, hey, guys, we can't play the game like that. you have to get insurance when you're well. >> wow, can't play a game like that. this isn't a game. lives have been saved by this law. this isn't a game. i just wish republicans knew this really isn't a game. joining me now is congressman jim mcdermott, democrat from washington, and a vocal supporter of the health care law. and david corn, washington bureau chief of "mother jones." he's also the author of "showdown: the inside story of how obama fought against boehner, cantor, and the tea party." thanks to both of you for being here. >> it's good to be here. >> congressman, let me start with you. republicans want to trash this law, but what is their solution?

>> i asked one of them, one of the leaders this morning, where have you been for the last 15 months in terms of bringing out an alternative? now, they have talked about repeal, and they've tried to slash pieces off it one at a time and take it down altogether, but they have never put a comprehensive plan out there to deal with what is the number one worry of most americans, domestically. if you get sick in this country, you worry about will you have insurance? will it cover what you need? and they have no interest in taking care of what the people's number one concern is. so i don't -- they have no place to go because they'll be back at ground zero and we'll have millions more people without health insurance. we went from 2 million in 2002, to 9 million now, and we're getting worse. >> now, david, when you look at the facts, 2.5 million young

adults now are covered under their parents' plan. 5.1 million seniors saved $3.2 billion on prescriptions. 17.6 million children with pre-existing conditions no longer denied coverage. they're willing to hurt all these people? >> in essence, yes. you just heard mitt romney say, we don't want to play that game. you know, people forget, and i reported it in my book, "showdown," the first bill that the house republicans passed, one of the first, i think it was the first, when they came into power over a year ago was to repeal the health care law. in the house. and it passed. the tea party republicans under john boehner passed a repeal of the health care law, and they had nothing. remember, they used to say repeal and replace? they had nothing to replace it with. they are on record already as saying we don't want any of this, and then when you hear the arguments, as you just played them, of the supreme court, 16 million people will be covered by the expansion of medicaid,

which is not connected to the individual mandate. so there you have people like scalia and clemont arguing against this who are saying it will just be a shell. it won't be a shell for those 16 million people. again and again and again, the republicans have had their answers, as the congressman said, to tell us what replacement would need. they're not serious about replacing. >> no, but congressman, it's this kind of your way, or you're on your own mentality. when i heard what willard mitt romney said last night on jay leno, it reminded me of that mentality of you're on your own when the gop had the debate -- remember this moment back in september in the debate when it came up about people could actually suffer from this? look at the attitude of that crowd in this gop debate. >> a healthy 30-year-old young man has a good job, makes a good living, but decides, you know what, i'm not going to spend $200 or $300 a month for health

insurance because i'm healthy, i don't need it. but, you know, something terrible happens. all of a sudden he needs it. >> that's what freedom is all about. taking your own risk. this whole idea that you have to prepare and take care of everybody -- >> but congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die? >> no. >> i mean, are we becoming a country where people are just openly and very arrogantly saying, just let them die? >> it is the most scary thing about this, al, that if you look at the situation, the direction they're going is to say that this is social darwinism. if you can't hadon't have the m have insurance and show up at the emergency room, well, we're going to let you die out on the gurney in the parking lot because we're not going to bring you in because you don't have insurance and you can't pay for it. that is the direction we're

moving. and it is very -- it's not american. it's not the america i know. we take care of each other. and if i were to stand here and say, why don't we get rid of fire departments and fire insurance? why should i have to pay taxes for that? my house never caught on fire, why should i pay? you would think i was crazy. >> you're right. david, the looking even at it politically, they don't care about human feelings and human sensitivity. if you take this law piece by piece, it's really popular. i mean, 85% of people support ban on discrimination for pre-existing conditions. 68% support allowing young adults to stay on parents' insurance. 77% support reduced medicare costs, drug costs. 45% support the individual mandate. politically, the popular opinion is when you break it down piece by piece, and i think that that is what has to be done in the

political world is they've got to really break this down so that people understand what's at stake here. >> and i hate to reference my book, you know that, but -- >> it's all right. i'm going to get down with "showdown." go ahead. >> in talking to the obama campaign strategists who devise the campaign ahead, that they've started, they believe that if you look at that list that you just put up on the screen, and you fight that fight, while the democrats lost the messaging war over the health care bill going into the 2010 midterm elections, they think they can win by making the point that it does all these things that are wildly popular. obama advisers tell me again and again and again, in the first two years they realized they didn't pay time they needed to do figuring out how to outmaneuver the republicans on the rhetoric. >> right. >> they thought that the accomplishments would speak for themselves, but with death panels, government takeover of health care, all these extreme rhetorical devices, they got caught. they think they can come back and win that fight.

>> well, according to the polls, they can. congressman jim mcdermott and david corn, thanks to both of you for joining me tonight. >> thanks. we'll be right back with the same old playbook. [ male announcer ] what can you do with plain white rice? when you pour chunky beef with country vegetables soup over it... you can do dinner. four minutes, around four bucks. campbell's chunky. it's amazing what soup can do. is now within your grasp with the all-new e-trade 360 investing dashboard.

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finally tonight, the right wing playbook is coming out in the tragic death of trayvon martin. this 17-year-old boy was doing nothing wrong when he was killed. he was walking with skittles and an iced tea dead. but now we're seeing new pictures of trayvon, and they're trying to portray him as a thug. they're trying to make him look dangerous. like he was asking for trouble. the conservative "daily caller" and other media used that picture of him with gold teeth, and the "drudge report" used the same picture linked to an article about an alleged twitter handle belonging to trayvon that

used the "n" word. trayvon's family has tdenied th twitter account is his. we've seen this before. the right did the same thing to michael griffith, hawkins, and abner louima. i've won some cases, lost some cases. they always try to smear the victim because they try to distract us from the events that we are supposed to be looking at. nobody's an angel, but it does not give you the right to maim them, harm them, or kill them. so all this smearing is a distraction. all we want is the facts. whether they fall our way or the other way. but when you have to smear, it means that you already know the facts will not end up going your way. otherwise, you'd let the facts stay and stand for itself. just remember, some of us have seen this playbook before.