new sources of energy are the ones that are fighting the hardest to maintain these giveaways for the oil companies. >> that was their brilliant plan how to deal with gas prices, raise taxes on energy companies when gas is already around $4 a gallon. >> sam, i want to -- you're a washington denison. you qualify as one. we know that in washington -- >> negative. >> it's good. it's a badge of honor, my friend. the gas prices in washington are above $4 a gallon. and i want -- there was a report out last week by john podesta and jeff guerin that said that democrats fumbled this, sort of walked into republican talking points on gas prices and not steered the conversation over to ending subsidies for gas, big oil and gas. 65% of the country saying there

is a very/fairly convincing case against the oil companies, 33% saying somewhat, not convincing argument. do you think what the president just said in the rose garden is effective? >> yes. if the polling number is to be believed if you want to focus on one thing, on the subsidies that these wealthy oil companies are getting. on the flip side, if you're the president and gas prices are this high it's very difficult to not get blamed though he has little control over anything at the price at the pump you're the guy in charge. it happened to george w. bush as well. what's ironic three or four years ago the solutions proposed by republicans including mitt romney were sort of an all of the above approach. but it doesn't really alleviate the pain in the polls. but yes, switching to the talking point about subsidies for oil companies i think is the one hand that the white house can play and they are playing it. >> it's worth noting procedural

vote on the measure just failed. let's talk a little bit about congress and that of course is a good lead-in to the dysfunction in congress. the fact the ryan budget is expected to pass the house which will give republicans a good talking point. i think i saw an eye roll from you, maggie. >> not at all. >> you can't even see me. not an eye roll. it was a nod. >> it's worth a nod. okay. last night the house unanimously rejected zero to -- sorry 414, what they call the president's budget, which of course sort of select pieces and sentences from the president's budget. but you know, a political optics, messaging, political football. >> bipartisan opposition. >> there is this moment where this is an interesting moment for republicans where they are doubling down on what sort of didn't work before with the ryan budget. so i think that it was not an eye roll, that was a nod.

but this is not going to go very far. this is more political posturing. everything we're seeing now including, frankly, in terms of oil and energy and that debate is playing the hand as sam said that you were dealt. that's what both sides are doing. >> don't you think, especially when it comes to the oil issue, this gives conservatives an opportunity to say okay, let's consider cutting some of these oil subsidies, why not look at cutting to the other energy sectors such as biofuels and wind and solar. in 2010 the government gave away $37 billion in subsidies, the majority to biofuels, then wind and oil. >> some of those need help. the oil industry -- >> no. subsidies are an admission that the product is unhealthy or will fail the free market. >> that's what subsidies are for. >> why have we been giving out oil and gas subsidies since 1913 then. for almost 100 years.

>> i'm a free market conservative, i like to see all subsidies go. i think all are admissions that a product is either unhealthy or cannot survive the test of the free market. and conservatives if they wanted to have credibility on this issue should say shurks we'll look at cutting subsidies to the oil industry but we also need to cut subsidies to many of these expensive and failing other energy sectors. >> the better hand cut to the oil and gas so long as you approve the keystone pipeline in the north. that would really force the president's hand. spl >> the straw man or straw woman but first on a note of procedure, you deny an eye roll once, but if you deny it three times that does raise suspicion. i'm not here to make a ruling. as for the straw man argument. look. >> early and often. >> internet started with a

subsidy from darpo, an offshoot of a military research program. it wasn't because the internet was a failed or destined to fail product. it was a product that ultimately flourished in the private markets and restructured many aspects of our information society. but, when it started out it wasn't inherently profitable. so just on the philosophical point we may disagree but i think there are very good examples in history of government subsidies that helped. i would put wind, i'm not a wind energy expert but -- >> you're not. >> i'm not. >> today. >> not today. >> he did read our wikipedia page. >> he is a hot air energy -- >> i did work in congress and i do think the legislative purpose of the wind subsidy like the internet subsidy is the notion that this is a market that could later take off but needs help now. that might be wrong but that is the principle. >> i never said that subsidies don't lead to successful

ventures. sometimes they do. on principle i reject them as a conservative. i know that's not a popular thing when we're talking about oil subsidies. most republicans would stand up for them. i think subsidies are bad for the economy. >> and if you talk to a lot of people in the high tech sector they argue there is the valley of death a product goes through. if you don't have the government supporting it die as premature death. >> survival of the fittest. >> that is one way to go. catfish and all. bloomberg, mike bloomberg in an op-ed says whether you support it or not the president's tax plan is a political strategy not an economic one, it will have virtually no bearing on the federal deficit or our ability to finance current spending. the republican candidates have unveiled a tax plans that are just as divorced from reality, that said, don't make the bush tax permanent while eliminating the -- sorry, they say they make the bush taxes permanent. if you believe that i've got a

bridge to sell you. >> i guess that meeting in the white house didn't go that well. >> but you know, strong language from a man who has seen in many circles as a clear-minded independent, making the case that people have to talk turkey on any numbers, programs they are going to cut, how they are going to reshape the economy. it's not likely to happen? >> no. i don't think at all. we had mitt romney say to i think to the weekly standard last week that he does have specific programs he wants to cut but doesn't want to say what they are and essentially because it would be politically wrong to do so or dangerous to do so. i did that in my race against ted kennedy and i found that's a prop problem so i'm not going to do that. no, you're not going to hear a lot about what they are going to cut. the mayor is saying what he has been saying for years, this is not much new. he is disillusioned with the president. he says that. they did have a meeting a couple of weeks ago or months ago. it doesn't sound like much was moved in terms of the needle in

their relationship. i don't think he thinks he is a business friendly president but i don't think he is going to hear much from the republican candidates, i think this is also a way for the mayor who is in the waning days to stay relevant. >> but we still like him here. >> we do. >> fourth term? >> but he is running out of options. he is relevant to the conversation, no question. i think he is endorsement saying that mitt romney would like to have. >> later in the show waiting until june, what is next for the white house and the health care debate. we'll talk to former white house adviser dr. zeke emmanuel. fir first, the unemployed, is that the right strategy. that's up next on "now." we always hear about jobs leaving america. here's a chance to create jobs in america. oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy

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the candidate who once said he likes firing people offered a look at what count as a real knee slapper around the romney table. layoffs. >> i have a few connections with the state of wisconsin, one of the most humorous i think relates to my father. as the president of the company he decided to close the factory in michigan and move all of the production to wisconsin. now, later he decided to run for governor of michigan. every time they would start playing on wisconsin, on wisconsin, my dad's political people would jump up and down and try and get them to stop because they didn't want people in michigan to be reminded that my dad had moved production to wisconsin. >> the detroit news reported at the time. that decision by romney's father resulted in 4, 300 workers being

laid off. s.e.cupp. romney and humor. romney and talking. >> not great anecdote to choose. if i'm going to put a positive spin on all of these romney gaffes, i think it's that you know, he's a charitable guy, and he'd rather give to others. and what he is doing is giving to others. instead of -- >> wow. >> the democrats. >> yes. >> that was -- >> to everyone else. >> this was not a gaffe, i would argue a gaffe is when you say words like i like being able to fire people which you know, is slightly taken out of context, still doesn't sound good. this was a story, this was a story and i think a revealing moment. it was not -- it was really strange. he is sitting there talking about how his father, chuckle chuckle closed a factory. i mean, i don't see -- there is no good way to describe this. this was not a gaffe. but i think this was the worst of a lot of in a string of

really unfortunate statements that he has made since january. >> left in stitches by the story, so humorous, i was on the floor. >> you have nothing left. you're spent. >> the only serious analysis i'd offer is that you can see how he looks at everything through a political lens, as in this factory closing boy, did it create terrible political problems for my dad, that's so funny. that says a lot, i think. i think it's revealing about the campaign at large which is everything is looked at as to what advantage and disadvantage it would cause you from a political purpose. >> no concern as to the human element. the idea there are people here and that this is not just about -- you take that in context with this news we have about the 11,000 square foot vacation home in la jolla and the car elevator and so on. no one begrudges mitt romney his wealth. sometimes factories have to close and move. this complete lack of connection

to the pain that factory closings cause. >> finish that thought. i don't think it's unfair. he is a politician. that's what politicians do. usually politicians are better at pretending that they aren't doing it. he's not good at it. >> i don't think the issue is politics in the sense that everyone has political motivations. i think the problem for him is that we are seeing through extemper rainous commentary a wind owe into how cloistered his world view s. we have a society where we believe in the aspiration we don't count against people for being poor or rich. that's the ideal. there are plenty of rich people who use their wealth to free them of constraints and then do all sorts of interesting or good things. this is someone who amassed all of this wealth and then still talks from a cocoon perspective that suggests no awareness for the pain of the people who lost their jobs. >> i think it's not that complicated to either of your points.

i think someone on his campaign said you need to connect more, come up with interesting stories or connections at every state you're in. so whether it's the height of the trees or the grits, he does it terribly because he is a bad politician but i don't think there's any kind of projection there. >> but those are not all the same things. it's not the same as the car thing. the car thing, look. rich people and politico broke that story, it was a fair game story. you have no expectation of privacy when you run for president. if you don't want people writing about your house don't build on it during your race. i don't think that's the same as this. i think people expect rich people to have toys. we know he's rich. that's established. this was just speaking with a lack of perspective. and this is a lack of perspective about other people's lives and people who are not like you. i think he uses his father to try to humanize himself. he has been doing this for a while. his father was seen as someone who was relatable. >> and he relates. he has a strong bond. >> yes. but i think that's where this

stems from and it's more than the cloistered wealth thing. it's sort of all about the romneys. one of the things strange about the race he has run, he managed to make a race that should be a referendum on president obama as far as the republicans are concerned into somehow something about mitt romney. it's all about mitt romney. >> isn't that every race? >> no. >> president obama was all about president obama. he wrote his memoirs in his 30s. >> i was there. he was not, this was not the same kind of race. the way that mitt romney talks about his race is not the -- excuse me, this race and the campaign, is not the same as what the democrats did in 2008. >> i disagree. i was there as well. it was all about obama. it was a personality race. it was about his history, his story. >> that was a lot of it but it was also about issues and it was about a sort of forward looking view and it was true on both sides that in this case what is mitt romney's forward looking view. i'm serious. this has been the criticism for a while. >> the obama campaign's defining

mantra was that we had to change the structure of government and get past partisanship. >> regardless whether you buy it or not. >> romney started out with something that wasn't similar but at least he had a mantra which was i know how to be a great technocrat. >> fix problems. >> the fixer man. now to maggie's point it's become all about him and who he is. i want to clarify -- >> you can't criticize him for not knowing him and when he tells stories you say it's about him. >> that's my point. i want to clarify. when he's telling stories about factories closing and stuff, he's telling it as someone who thinks that he is entitled or should be given the presumption he should be president, and someone of course he has been in the political world, he knows these problems, he's known how businesses make decisions and how governors have to shut down or i guess his dad had to shut factories. he has been there all the time. to ari's point he doesn't have the perspective of someone who

lost a job because a factory closed down. >> he's not talking about voters. his connection to voters is not talking about their lives. this is what i'm trying to say. well put. any time. this is he has managed to turn what should be a connection with voter, that's the idea and understanding their problems, into some story about his family. i think that's the problem. he has had this problem. >> and look. you were doing a valiant job of defending mitt romney. >> i'm trying. >> no one in the party is buying it. this is marco rubio's quote endorsement yesterday. >> there is no way that any one can convince me that having a floor fight at the convention in tampa in august is a recipe for victory in november. on the contrary i think it's a recipe for disaster. i am going to endorse romney. the reason is not only because he's going to be the republican nominee but offers such a stark contrast to the president's record. >> i'm going to endorse him because he's going to be the

nominee, basically, ari. >> reminds me of the new yorker cartoon that show as woman talking to her friend and she says, look, he's rich, besides i love him. and explaining the marriage. this is a big problem. when someone who is prepared as rubio was to go on fox news and explain the endorsement, begins with the fact that this guy's inevitable so i'm doing what i have to do, that is literally the least you can do. >> it is literally the preface almost all of these late endorsements. he's the nominee probably so here's my endorsement. >> is that not for the good of the party argument. is that noble. >> i don't know whether it's noble or not but it's not because the passion for the romney is so great. unfortunately we have to leave it there after the break are birthers creeping back into the 2012 race? did they leave. we'll look at what rick santorum and newt gingrich have to say next on "now." hi, i'm phil mickelson.

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your trip begins at michigan.org. >> here's an admin strags which apologizes to radical islamist fanatics killing young americans while it is waging war against the catholic church in the united states and against every baptist and every other institution that is dedicated to right to life. >> that was newt gingrich last week, keeping alive the birther controversy though maggie we have news that sheldon addleson may be closing his pocketbook. >> newt gingrich is playing up sort of the stoking of the muslim fears about president obama. we've seen this in increasing phases as his campaign has gotten more desperate. sheldon has said is near the end of his line. but he didn't exactly -- >> credit line or political line? >> both perhaps. but he did not sing mitt romney's praises also.

>> i was surprised. i thought that was the next logical step. >> he will. even rich friends. >> but let's actually talk a little about the birther stuff. rick santorum says it's not surprising this president will go down in history as a who want has embraced radical islamist groups. we're talking about graceful exits. it's not rick santorum's time to leave but is this what you want, is this the message you want to be spinning in maybe the last two months of your campaign? >> i certainly wouldn't. these are distractions and i think republicans have been really bad at resisting some of these distraction stories. frankly, there is so much good stuff of substance to focus on with this administration, on economic policies, energy policies, foreign policies, it's amazing that they go off book so often when it's so easy to stay on script. >> it's worth noting, this is also happening at the state

level, missouri bill passed the gop controlled house yesterday which would require candidates to produce birth certificate. they want to appear on a ballot. you can say, i agree the republican candidates do not necessarily need to be picking i wouldn't even call it low hanging fruit. messing around in the garbage can which i think this is doing. on the state level lawmakers won't let it go. >> i mean, i think that in terms, one thing i want to note yes, i agree on the state level you see this cropping up and it gives rise to that. i think what is interesting about this or something to watch about this, i think that as s.e. said, mitt romney has not done this. this is something he stayed away. >> fair. >> and i think it's going to be interesting to see when he's the nominee and i wrote about it yesterday to see what happens when these folks show up at his rallies and screaming. >> let's have a bit of self awareness. >> to me? >> no. to the panel at large. don't wink at me.

>> eye rolls and winks. >> we're talking about these people and that's one of the reasons why they do it. they get a lot of attention, a lot of love from the people, the fringes of their base and something we in the media have to also recognize that we help participate in. >> but we also have to cover. when a state house, one part of the state house is passing this you have to talk about it. we'll talk about many things after the break. politics versus reality. dr. zeke emmanuel joins us next. coffee doesn't have vitamins... unless you want it to. splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweetener with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism. three smart ways to sweeten. same great taste. splenda® essentials™. and on small business saturday bothey remind a nations of the benefits of shopping small. on just one day, 100 million of us joined a movement...

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of pennsylvania school of medicine, also a former white house adviser for health policy in the administration. and one of your brothers termed the nice emmanuel. thank you for joining us the program. >> thank you for having me. >> i wonder, you know, we were doing a lot of tea leaf reading, nobody knows what will be the fate of the individual mandate for a few week/months. having worked inside the white house do you think there is a certain amount of alarm following the days of organize arguments and they may be developing a contingency plan? >> well, i don't know what they are doing. but i do think that any citizen has to be concerned about what went on in front of the supreme court. i think on the second day of arguments when we were talking about the individual mandate there was clear lack of understanding about the health care system and the economics of the health care system by the justices and i don't think they got themselves clarified what the differences between broccoli and health insurance and why

they are two different things. and the market for broccoli works fine, we don't need to have a mandate for people where in health insurance if you don't have a mandate you can't have a functioning market. that they didn't seem to understanding. and i think on the third day, the last day, there's a lot of concern about the fact that they seemed willing to make a lot of social policy on the supreme court, they seemed very activist justices, deciding that they are going to remake medicaid and compact between the federal government and the states, that they can decide best what holds in the bill and what doesn't hold in the bill if the mandate gets overturned. that seemed like the activist judges that conservatives used to denounce but now seem to be doing just fine. it was a little surprising. >> i wonder what you think, if the individual mandate is deemed to be unconstitutional and the rest of the affordable care act

goes down with it, you know, from the -- >> wait. i don't think any one is thinking that the whole affordable care act would go down. there are lots of parts that are independent. as i wrote in "the new york times" at the start of the week, there's lots of cost control measure, lots of quality improvement measures that are completely distinct from the individual mandate. what the justices were talking about is if the individual mandate goes down, then we take away insurance provisions like guaranteed issues so people who have a condition would have to get n. that the insurance companies say they can't do. >>the administration arguing that denying folks with pre-existing conditions, coverage and raising premiums for the sick, would fall away but those, i mean if you look at the affordable care act those are two of the -- its biggest sort of positives. >> they are both positives, very popular.

i would note that chief justice roberts has a serious health condition f he didn't have government provided insurance he would be uninsurable in the private sector. completely uninsurable. >> can i jump in. >> for people like him that these provisions are there. if they get taken away i think the american publick is going to be you beset. >> let my attest you are not the nice emmanuel brother. when you were crafting this bill and had to compel people to buy insurance coverage were there other considerations besides the mandate, if so what were they and where did they fall and which got the closest to getting universal coverage without mandating it. >> so, we looked at a lot of the options, and sam, you're right, we did very much due diligence. we looked at auto enrollment so that people would automatically be enrolled and have to disenroll. you can adjust the subsidies to give people more. you can create a penalty so that

if people don't get insurance they can't go in the market if they got sick and get insurance for 18 months or two years or three years. pick your time. and generally what the cbo found is without the mandate but with the current subsidy level, you get 16 million people insured, 16 million of the uninsured come into the system. but that's about half of what you get if you include the mandate. and in all of these programs with auto enrollment, some form of a penalty or delay of getting insurance if you don't enter at the start which by the way we have in part d, you can get upwards close to 20 million people. i don't have the exact number. >> would the insurance companies be fine with that? >> no. i don't think they would be fine with it because for them, the real concern is that you have what is called the adverse selection, that people who are

sicker are more likely to use health care services, more likely to buy coverage and they are going to have a risk pool of people that are pretty expens e expensive. so i think the whole thing makes them extremely nervous and rightfully so. let me add one thing. it's not like this is all economic theory or just the ideas of policymakers. we tried plenty of exchanges and insurance marketplaces that are voluntary, that allow small businesses or individuals to come in without a mandate. they all collapse. they are very unstable, precisely because of this adverse selection, and the only exchange that has been sustainable is the one in massachusetts with a mandate. by the way, i would also say if we get rid of the mandate and the exchanges, the insurance bill for people is going to go up. so, the trade-off is you don't like the mandate, you're going to pay more money. >> zeke, i want to touch on

something you mentioned before which is the way the justices discuss the case on the third day. and the notion of activist judges on the conservative side. e.j. dionne writing yesterday said three days of supreme court arguments over health care law demonstrated for all to see that conservative judges are prepared to act as an alternative legislature diving deeply into policy details as if they were members of the senate health, education, labor and pensions committee. as a court watcher were you surprised by this? >> i was surprised by the level of detail on day three. severability is a fancy word for a simple thing, which is if you find one bad part of a law and congress has said no matter what they want the rest of the law to stand, in many cases the court will just let it stand. meaning the question is not how would it all work, but rather, whether the congressional intent was to leave the rest. and partly because the obama administration moved around on

this and partly because the skourt an an assertive mood they scheduled a lot of extra unusual argument for people who don't want the court regularly this is not normal. this was an extra day just to dive into the details. i agree with dr. emmanuel that would be more akin -- >> severability, didn't the administration argue it shouldn't be severed? >> that's a question for you, dr. emmanuel. why wasn't severability built into this? >> that i believe was an oversight, not intention. and i do know that most of us wanted severability and had certainly thought that there is severability in the bill. that's the way, again, all the lower courts have been understanding this issue, that it is severable. whether it is or not, one has to take the tone, it really isn't the place of justices to decide well, how is it best to

structure the health insurance market. congress held you know, over 70 days of hearings just on the house side on health care reform. had more than 200 witnesses on health care reform. they dealt into this for more than a year before passing a bill. before enacting the affordable care act. they are expert, for the justices to say we read a bunch of briefs, even if there is a record number, we held six hours of hearings, we're going to decide how best to structure the health insurance market, what can be included, what can't, seems to me to be quite you know, usurping a lot of policy making which in the past has been something conservatives have decried. we have a separation of powers for a good reason. the legislative branch has time to look at propositions like health care reform. >> dr. zeke emmanuel, thank you. we hope to speak with you again soon as we await the decision.

>> i'm sure we will. >> coming up on tuesday it looked like the frosty relationship between president obama and speaker boehner was improving. shortly after the president landed on u.s. soil speaker boehner sent a letter to the president saying he was alarmed by the hot mike comments about to dimitri medvedev. we'll talk about that next. [ male announcer ] what's the beat that moves your heart? how about the beat of a healthy heart? campbell's healthy request soup is delicious, and earned this heart, for being heart healthy. ♪ feel the beat? it's amazing what soup can do. is moving backward. [ engine turns over, tires squeal ] introducing the lexus enform app suite -- available now on the all-new 2013 lexus gs. there's no going back. see your lexus dealer. when i got my medicare card,

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with the all-new e-trade 360 investing dashboard. e-trade 360 is the world's first investing homepage that shows you where all your investments are and what they're doing with free streaming quotes, news, analysis and even your trade ticket. everything exactly the way you want it, all on one page. transform your investing with the all-new e-trade 360 investing dashboard. >> john boehner has a new message for the president. on tuesday boehner seemed to support president obama and take a smack at mitt romney saying it's inappropriate to criticize the president when he is overseas. a day later he wrote the white house a letter saying he is alarmed to learn of the message you sent to incoming president vladamir putin. s.e., on this channel at least or on this show, we thought that john boehner's comments in

support of the president were very statesman like. >> john mccain did not agree. >> true. you have to wonder how much of this is john boehner legitimately taking up issue with the president, how much is behind the scenes nudging if not ankle kicking from the rest of the party about saying something positive about the president. >> well, if this were behind the scenes you would have to imagine he has two camps fighting with each other behind the scenes to say something nice, then forcing him to come out and sort of -- slap him in the face. this is what you're suggesting, that both of what john boehner has done has been at the behest of other republicans. i think that john boehner felt like he didn't want to answer that question, and so he said, he's overseas let's not answer the question then decided i'm going to be thoughtful and put this in writing and deliver a serm tune the president about this hot mike issue. >> i will say i thought it was

john baseballer legitimately sort of expressing his beliefs, he is more of a moderate than i think many people give him credit for i guess. but and then sort of gave this inadvertently sort of defense for the white house, and that was not bet a great deal of support. >> more of a traditional than people give him credit for. by the strict definition you don't criticize someone overseas. the guy came back and then he criticized him. >> it's as much to do with i think a traditionalist is well put. second time in the show. also i think >> too cozy. >> but i think it was very interesting. the break with the party's likely standard bearer to me was most striking. >> but they are in different venues. mitt romney has to do what he has to do. >> let's talk about mitt romney. mitt romney doubled down, called russia our greatest political foe. pravda had to say.

electing mitt romney would be like appointing a serial pedophile as a kindergarten teacher, a rapist as a janitor at a girl's dorm or a psychopath. his comments are russia are an attempt at making the grand stage and boy did he blow it. >> might as well stop the election. >> that's it. the important vote has been cast. i think that's a tad bit of hyperbole. i think that the democrats in this country are seizing on what mitt romney said about geopolitical foe and the greatest as a huge gaffe, republicans are arguing otherwise there are all sorts of reasons why this remains of grave concern. i think for romney's campaign an attempt to try to pivot to substance out of the smallness of this primary. >> do you think so? in terms of substance, antagonizing russia in such strident terms after the comments about china. >> it's staber rattling.

i'm not saying there is depth but i think they are trying to speak on a grander scale. >> it's interesting in the context of the last presidential contenders. if sarah palin had said this, if people not assumed to be fit for office say it most women candidates would say this it would be treated as a bigger gaffe. he will get away with it and go away because there is an underlying idea that mitt romney is smart and competent and his foibles relate to authenticity, some of the things sam was talking about earlier. having said that on the substance it is absurd to look at our world stage and the threats we face from terrorism, the middle east, iran and economically from a growing china and say the geopolitically in the way the nations deal with each other russia is the problem. this shows, the fact it could leave his mouth shows a great problem in his mind. >> romney's always been sort of this tough talk candidate and de facto he will go to militancy.

i remember looking for old clips and he talked about the stimulus package. not enough money was spent on armame armament. and he wants to build up our maritime presence in the mediterranean, erase the defe e defense, increase the defense budget. he talks tough on iran, russia. it's his de facto posture. we haven't got an good sense because this election has been about economic terms. go back to 2008 this is all he talked about, who he was as a candidate. >> after the break, what now, student loans are on the rise. it's not just for college. more parents are starting early. what's with you? trouble with a car insurance claim. [ dennis ] switch to allstate. their claim service is so good, now it's guaranteed. [ foreman ] so i can trust 'em. unlike randy. dollar for dollar, nobody

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welcome back. time for what now. forget college loans, parents are trying to get help to pay

for kindergarten. maggie, 20% of families applying for k-12 aid last year had incomes over $150,000 a year. this is a significant rise sorry, yeah -- wow. too many stats. can't keep them all. kindergarten getting more expensive. the broader trend education getting more expensive. a study out yesterday says among those 18-49, 25% are confident they will be able to help their children get through college. in 2007 that was 49%. we're less optimistic to pay for education. >> i know which class i fall into. education is becoming more expensive. there are fewer coveted slots in the higher end of education and this is where you get into the debate about public education versus private education. i mean it's astonishingly expensive. i'm not surprised. >> did everybody see that

documentary called nursery university? it made me want to shoot myself in the face. the idea that it takes years on a wait list for these very elite private schools in new york for nursery school. >> but even setting aside the tiniest violin for new yorkers who have to do anything. honestly, student loan debt eclipses credit card debt as household debt which is a big deal f. we're talking about rhetoric around education and the budget programs cutting aid to folks so they can get an education even some of mitt romney's conversations with his audiences about don't expect the government to help you with your debt, go to the cheap school, i mean i'm obviously paraphrasing it's a significant problem. i do want to go to other topics and somehow we're going to work in a way to discuss s.e.'s attack by 0 -- attack on the

ankle. the fact that the trust conservatives place in science hit an all-time low according to a new report. in 2010, 35% of conservatives had a great deal of trust in science. in 1974, 48% had a great deal of trust in science. >> you're a conservative. we've talked about religion on the show, we have not talked much about science. >> you know, being i am a staunch social conservative but i'm also an atheist so i can't approach this from the position i think a lot of conservatives would but i will say i think as science has become incredibly politicized by the left and the right over the past decade it's become less credible to throw science into a conversation and have it be the unimpeachable, unquestionable kind of institution. i think science has been corrupted by politics whether it was environmental issues on the left, social issues on the

right. i think science has become a punching bag. and a political football that i think has made everyone a little more skeptical. i hope it has. >> ari. >> over to you. >> i think you could be a good senator because of the philly buster but i also think you could be a good lawyer because even when it's a hard case you give it your all. >> you are sounding patronizing. >> they are -- you and i know you're an atheist and you know this is not about the left and the right, it's about a -- >> of course it is. >> it's about a religious conflict with science. >> no. >> and a conflict that shows no signs of abating. thank you again to ari, s.e., maggie and sam. that is all for now. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern. the new yorker's ryan liza will be one of our panelists so we'll look at what just happened this week. until then follow us on the good old twitter machine @now with alex.

chris is up next for andrea mitchell. hello. >> hello, miss wagner. i'm looking up to figure out what it means. coming up, president obama calms on congress to end tax subsidies for big oil but it failed. what's next for health care. dan pfeiffer joins me. will preview the house votes on the democratic and republican versions of the budget. and senator joe manchin is here on how both parties are coming together, you heard that, coming together to help hire our vets. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way.

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