that's just cowardly silence. and that, we can never afford if you're true american patriots to be silent in the face of real questions. thank you for watching, have a good weekend, i'm al sharpton, "hardball" starts right now. >> let's get to the truth, and let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i'm chris matthews, in washington, what really happened. we're hearing two versions of the night that trayvon martin was killed. george zimmerman's brother said he was nearly unconscious and in danger of brain damage. we're also told he had not

spoken to george in years so we don't know the source of his information. then a new eyewitness came out and said there was a fight between two men, and a hispanic man walking away from the scene. we'll try to untangle this story tonight. also the stand your ground laws like the one in florida that george zimmerman's attorney said may be applicable in this case are in force in two dozen states now. we have compelling audio of someone that left his house to shoot to death two unarmed men that broke into a neighbor's house. he used the stand your ground law in defense. and don't get too excited about how well someone plays in spring training. it's only march now in politics, but president obama is pulling away in double digits from mitt

romney. we also know the far more important month in politics is october. the eve of the election itself. the dnc is having great fun lashing myth romney with his new budget plan that democrats insist favors the rich. >> when old mitt claps his hands for the paul ryan plan that's amore. >> that's in the side shou. let me finish tonight with the excruciating unpredictable election coming our way this fall. we have a correspondent from sanford tonight, and manager editor of "the grio" with us tonight. michael, what have you been able to uncover. >> there's still a lot murky

about what happened between trayvon martin and george zimmerman, but one new piece of evidence today that could raise further questions is the original 2005 police report on the arrest of george zimmerman. he was arrested at a bar by a state law enforcement officer and charged with battery and use of viens and obstructing justice. when you look at the police report, what we find is zimmerman disobeyed the orders of a state law enforcement officer to back off. he was arrested employees at the bar. when the officer showed his badge, zimmerman shot back "i don't care you who are" and f-you. that is in the police report, and it says they got into a short scuffle. so here we have a history of a

physical altercation between zimmerman and a law enforcement officer. zimmerman disobeying what the law enforcement officer told him to do. and he could have been charged with a felony. we spoke to the prosecutor on this case and said this could have been a battery charge, a felony, but a junior prosecutor in the office reduced the charges to a misdemeanor. they dismissed it under a court order plan, and what could have been a felony conviction was reduced and taken off. >> apparently he was 21 years old by my calculation, he 21, and getting alcoholic beverages for someone below age? >> no, it began with him interfering. >> but wasn't it about underage

drinking? >> the underlying case was sale of liquor. one of the bar employee was was being charged. he interferes with the ars. he is told to back off. he refuses to do so and then they get into the successful. this doesn't resolve any questions about what happened between trayvon martin and george zimmerman, but in the larger battle and effort to understand both of the two principals in this case, this prior police report does shed some light. >> does it shed light on whether he should be allowed to carry a concealed gun? >> that, i think some people will draw that as the most important lesson or point out of all of this. florida is one of those states that has a concealed weapon's law and por mitt, it was that that allowed him to carry the 9

millimeter. you can have a permit if you're arrested, but not if you're convicted of a felony. it's only the felony conviction that is a bar to carrying a permit and because the felony charges against zimmerman were reduced, the rest is history. he was able to get the permit. >> let's bring david wilson in here. i want to show you something. the brother of george zimmerman game to his defense last night. and although robert zimmerman jr. did not say he had spoke ton his brother, he described the moments leading up to trayvon martin's death. we don't know the source, but let's watch. >> george was out of breath, barely conscious. the last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass so if

he was banged one more time he would not be wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother. >> subsequent to that, george zimmerman's lawyer told nbc that brothers, those two, robert and george, have not spoke nn years, and the comments by robert are totally irrelevant. that's according to the defense attorney for george zimmerman. how do you put all of this together? we have people coming out of the wood work on both sides. this guy on the side of zimmerman, we don't know his source of information. if he talked to the father or the brother? >> it appears he and his father have a similar story. what is interesting about their story is it is -- they're painting a life and death situation for george zimmerman, this was something he had to act or do something. i thought what was interesting about both of the statements was the fact that they say trayvon martin was reaching for the gun.

this is new information that we didn't hear last week, and i think it's just creating this sort of story that look he had to act. when you look at the police tape, that video that came out, it creates some difficulty for the zimmerman camp because again, he looks like someone that just walked off the street. it doesn't look like he is in physical distress. there is no bruising you can see clearly. >> what about the close up done by another network that looked at the back of his head and you could see cuts like he described in his testimony. >> his brother says he was beaten inch frs being unconscious. and he is walking on his own. i think this video create ast problem for the zimmerman side. >> let's look at an interview from orlando fox, george

zimmerman's father describes the fight, let's watch that. >> after nearly a minute of being beaten, george was trying to get his head off of the concrete. trying to move with trayvon on him into the grass. in doing so, his firearm was shown. trayvon martin said something to the effect of "you're going to die now" or "you're going to die tonight" and another twhans did not want to identify themselves called that account into question by placing the fight between trayvon and zimmerman on the grass. they said they could not see which man was on top of the other, but did recount what they saw following the shooting.

let's listen to this report. >> then he was walking towards where i was watching and i could see him clearer and see it was a hispanic man, and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else. >> michael, back to you. this could become the battle of sourcing. some of it secondhand. some of it derived from hearing it on television or radio. this case, what can you figure out down there about the progress of the case itself. is it all in the hands now of the state's attorney? it's not a federal case exactly, it's still a state matter. >> right, i talked to the justice department. they're overseeing it. the investigation is being done by state investigators with a state prosecutor in charge. look, the evidence is as murky as it can get. clearly, one witness, one

crucial witness, trayvon martin is dead. you have george zimmerman and there may or may not have been goody witnesses that can back up or dispute what they saw. it is worth pointing out there is two known fact that's people on both sides could point to here. one is that we know that george zimmerman did disobey the instructions from the 911 officer not to keep following trayvon martin around. and that's perhaps why this police report from 2005 might be relevant. but we also know from the original police report on this incident in february, that the police officer on the scene did report that zimmerman had a -- was bleeding from the nose and

had blood on his body. that's an account that strongly suggest there was a physical struggle between martin and zimmerman, how it began we may not ever know. >> this stand your ground law is going to be an issue. it seems to me we're stuck here now deciding what the law says. the moral issues are complicated, but it seems to me we have a challenge on our hands. what constitutes self-defense on this new statute. >> it's very murky, right? you have two people. one person going against the word of a dead man. >> that's the case in any murder case. >> that's true, but there are other things you can judge by. i can say someone cay up to me and i decided to shoot them and you don't have to take anything else into account. i think that's a problem. you're starting to see this law being applied to some other cases. we were just talking today in my

news room about a case in miami where one gang related incident where a guy shot up a car. we're going to have to take another look at this law. a lot of folks on the right, particularly those for gun rights, are not going to be comfortable with this debate but i think it's one we need to have. >> we'll have it in about one minute, thank you both of you gentlem gentlemen, that fight is coming up here. the trayvon martin case has shined a spot light on these so-called stand your ground laws. we have an incredible 911 tape of a man that left his house to shoot and kill two burglars at a neighbors house and used the stand your ground law as a defense. this is "hardball." man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork.

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of wisconsin will face a recall election, the state's government accountability board voted unanimously if favor of a recall vote to be held june 5th of this year. i cording to our poll, walker's future is up in the air now. 46% say they will support him in the recall, others say they will vote for the democratic candidate. only two governors have been recalled. most recently california's greg davis back in 2003. of course arnold schwarzenegger got that job. ♪ when your chain of supply goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ chips from here, boards from there track it all through the air, that's logistics. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." the trayvon martin shooting put a bright light on florida's stand your ground law. whether or not it applies in this case or not, it's raising questions about the origin, and the two dozen other states with similar laws. "time" magazine said these right

to defend yourself lawing were sweeping the country and that was no coincidence. the american legislative exchange council used florida as a model to push the legislation across the country. two dozen states have something like this. we have the president of the naacp. and they released a -- john nichols is a correspondent that has written extensively on this organization and the stand your ground law itself. i want you to listen to something right now. a variation of the law passed in the state of texas after the florida law paved the way. after joe horn -- let's listen to a portion of a scary 911 call from september 2007 in which he, mr. horn, describes two men

breaking into a neighbor's home. >> listen to me carefully, okay? we've got officers coming out there. i don't want you to go outside that house. and i don't want you to have that fun in your hand when the officers are over there. >> i understand that, but i have a right to protect myself too. and the laws have been changed in the country and you know it and i know it. he is coming out the window right now. i got to go. i'm sorry, but he is coming out the window. >> don't go out the door. >> mr. horn? >> they just stole something. they have a bag of something. >> i don't want you going outside, mr. horn. you here the shotgun clicking? i'm going. >> don't go outside. >> hello, you're dead.

[ gunshots ] >> wow, john nichols, that is graphic. that is a live taping of two men who were gunning down by a civilian that decided to use this law, and he defended in court with this law? >> yes, and you will find cases like this in places across the country. >> how did he say he was defending himself. let's get back to the law and how it's used. stand your ground means if you're in danger of somebody beating you up, or you're in danger for your life because someone is coming at you and threatening you or whatever, how does this relate when he went after them? >> the issue sheer there are several variations on stand your ground laws. there is a castle doctrine law

that suggest you can protect your property right out to the sidewalk. stand your ground is more something that takes it out into the streets. the bottom line on this, chris, is the interpretation goes to the gunman. the person with the gun can say i felt threatened. i felt that i was in danger. and prosecutors, police officers, judges, who have been able to interpret statements like that, there is now a blanket immunity. if the shooter says they felt endangered their protected. >> just a minute, i don't want to go too far until i get the facts. how do you justify self-defense if you're shooting down like you're presenting to be a lawman. he was acting like a police officer. and maybe a officer can shoot a fleeing felony, but how do you

use it as a self-defense motive? >> i don't think it's kred tobl use. i think it's almost an obscene extension. unfortunately, this is what has happened in states across the country. we have had instance where's people have shot, in circumstances where you would say it was not necessary to use legal force, and the person doing the shooting has been let off the hook on the argument that they felt threatened. that's all they have to say and it happens. >> let me go to my friend, thank you for coming from the naacp. so many pans on the fire you're concerned about. you're concerned about the american legislative exchange council, what do you know and why are you concerned? >> this is a group that when we took a look at them we hoped was

like the chamber of commerce. but actually, what we found is they were founded really for ill intent. this is a group whose founder said our best interest is when the voting populous is constrained. when the number of people who can vote in this country goes down. and case after case they're on the wrong time. and they're super extreme. and this wild, wild west law that they passed -- frankly, if someone made a 911 call from the frontier in 1880, that's what it would sound like. why are so many corporations supporting a group to shrink the number of people that can vote in this country and have laws that let people gun each other

down in our streets. >> do you think our self-defense laws as we understand them through common law, and a couple guys come in with hoods on or whatever, masks on, and they're armed, he putting out a shotgun and kills them, most people say that is self-defense because they're pointing guns on him. that's self-defense to me. aren't the self-defense laws enough that we have on the books? i'm making the argument for that. is that true? >> it's absolutely true. in fact, chris, working on stories on this particular variation of the castle doctrine law, i looked at the states where they have been passed and tried to figure out if there was any case or public outcry that justified going beyond the traditional protection that's are in common law that existed since before the founding of the

united states. in most cases there aren't any reasons to go here. the reason that state after state has gone here is because the american legislative exchange council in 2005, after florida passed it's law, developed model legislation that with the support of the nra and other groups it has pushed in state after state across this country. not to response to specific incidents, but rather to dramatically extend what i think of as a fantasy of where gun rights ought to go. >> because you represent such a revered organization, is there any sense that these laws are meant to be anti-minority? >> certainly it seem that's for many the fear they have is of black men and that's what's at the heart of the trayvon case.

this is a case where a young black men was stalked on the street, attacked, shot in cold blood. not because of what he was doing but because of what he looked like. >> that's by the way -- that's your argument, what you're putting together are three or four things in dispute -- >> no. >> he did track him we know that, we know that part. we don't know what kind of a confrontation occurred. you say in cold blood, that's a phrase. >> he got out of his car with a gun. >> that's true. >> he had the gun, and the guy, and a concealed weapon, yes. but we don't know what happened, do we. >> look, what we know is what happened until about 10 seconds before, and the cops said stay in your car. and we know he was following him in the car. and we know trayvon is calling his girlfriend saying a strange

guy is following me. and when you read the law, the law seems to say if you're followed, if you're stalked, somebody attacks you, pulls out a gun, you can use equal and opposite force. it doesn't say if you attack somebody with a gun, and get scared, you can shoot and kill them. we have seen two drug dealers -- >> i can't have the case here. we don't know he drew his gun on the young man. we don't know how it happened. we know in the course of some kind of confrontation the guy used his firearm lethally. there is a middle we have to learn more about. >> thank you sir, for that great report. the "hardball"side show is next. so, how was school today ?

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back to "hardball," let's turn to the web ad wars. first from the gop. president obama's exchange with the russian president turned into a dreaded open mic moment. they wasted no time mocking the president with a james bond style trailer. let's watch. >> in a world where one man cannot lose, the fight of the man rests in one stop secret mission. >> it's my last election, afterwards i'll have more flexibility. >> your mission is simple, mr. obama. win one last election to weaken

our defenses and fundamentally transform the world. >> starring barack obama as president flexible. and vladamir putin as himself. >> wow, it is yet to be seen if the incident we saw will be a long-term problem. the democrats might have you singing along with this. mitt romney got the endorsement of congressman paul ryan today, and they had fun linking ryan and his tax care budget with mitt romney. >> when old mitt claps his hands for the paul ryan plan, that's amore. ♪ when paul ryan gives props to

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>> somewhere the great dean martin is smiling. next, president obama is opening a big lead against mitt romney. and it's only march, but things are not looking good for team obama. you're watching "hardball." imag. we have customers all over the united states. we rely on the postal service for everything that we do. the eastern maine processing facility is vital to our operation and our success. if we lose this processing facility we could lose clientele because of increased mailing times. we would have to consider layoffs as a result of that. closure of this plant will affect all of us. ♪

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>> i'm milissa rehberger, the obama administration will go through tough new sanctions on oil exports. the measures will target foreign banks that buy oil from the islamic public. . the u.s. government is accused of hiding evidence and not turning over files, and the mega millions jackpot is now a record $640 million. butdds of winning tonight

are 1 in 176 million. back to "hardball." >> welcome back to "hardball" and back to politics, there is good news and bad news for mitt romney in the latest poll. romney is headed for a win in the next primary there, but the poll says he would lose badly to obama in november. the president beats romney by 17 points. that's bigger than what he had against john mccain. and romney's problems extend to other key battleground states. florida, in florida obama leads by seven. in ohio, the presence up by six. pennsylvania he is ahead by only three, that's tricky for the

democrats. mark halperin, and nina henderson are here. thank you, i was just talking to you earlier today, you're all over this romney campaign. let me start with you on this. romney, did he suffer so much damage in the problem that never seemed to end there with these two guys, newt and rick santorum, did that hurt him vis-a-vis the press? >> it seemed like it hurt him, but let's remember what they said. they would be able to pivot, using that unfortunate metaphor of an etch-a-sketch, but i think they're trying to recalibrate at this point. now they say they will start focussing on foreign policy. they think that will be a weakness for the president. they can draw strong contrast. that has, been somewhat damaged

by this elongated race they didn't really anticipate. >> let me go to mark halperin on this. it seems to me this election could be the kind that is so close that electoral votes will count. when you're looking at the key states, i was appalled how close pennsylvania looked and democrats have to win by more than two or three. >> my overall view is that the president is remain the favorite. there's a lot of stuff that's caveats to that. we look at the numbers, you have to ask the question. are the president's numbers his floor or ceiling. normally you lock at them as a ceiling. . he is above 50 in wisconsin and below 50 in the other places.

if romney run ast competent campaign, he is in the ability to run this. and now the wisconsin number has to alarm remembers. >> we're talking now, we just got into spring, we have the entire spring ahead of us with two candidates, obama and mitt romney now. we have the entire hot summer ahead of us at six months. then we have the fall campaign that's two months more. we have eight more months of these candidates knowing who they're facing and crashing each other on air or in person. who has the endureability, and who is at their peak? >> i think he might be in the middle. we have a lot of things coming up in summer. one is a health care vote out of the supreme court. they will have to figure out a

way to talk about that. whatever happens either way if it's held up or tossed out. i think there is a lot of room for these candidates to grow. mark said that mitt romney will have to run a competent campaign. he will probably have to run more than a competent campaign and be have stronger candidate that we have seen so far. he has a gaffe problem, and he has not addressed some core problems. he has to figure out a way to talk about how rich he is and what a that means for the person he is and his ability to connect. >> let's tilt the table a little bit. i have always been complimefavor the president. romney is no good at small talk, and i think it's dangerous for him. if you get him in a debate where

he has time to think and get ready for it, he gets his game face on he and he is pretty good. i think he will win one of the three debates, and he has had all of thin credible practice. let me go to mark on this. >> i think there are three big things he has to do. he has to be a credible commander and chief and he is talking more about foreign policy in the last couple days. two is he has got to be more likable. he will never be as likable as the president. he has to be more likable and show more of himself. >> will more help? >> yes, you know what, i have seen him on the campaign plane in private moments and it's infinitely better. third is nuts and bolts. getting the american cross roads and other groups out there

spending money on his behalf. >> you're the best, please come back. thank you. up next, lyndon johnson became president in a dark hour and proved to be a great president. how he did it and what president obama can learn from the master legislature that has ever been president. this is "hardball."

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assassination. >> all i have i would have given gladly not to be standing here today. no words are sad enough to express our sense of loss. no words are strong enough to express our determination to continue the forward thrust of america that he began. >> in his new book, mark undegrove say he was a great man. the book is called "indomitable will" thank you for joining us, mark. what always impressed me was johnson's ability to get the

civil rights act through. along came lyndon johnson in the aftermath of the who are pro-civil rights and enough democrats to get the thing through. >> you're right. what's remarkable about that is the political courage that it took to get it done. he had to oppose his friend and mentor. he called him to the white house in a very tense meeting in which russell declared he could probably get the civil rights act of '64 passed, but would do so at the risk of losing the southern states and losing the 1964 election. johnson hears that and says if that's the price for this bill, i will gladly pay it. >> you go down the list. harry bird, robby bird.

irvin, fulbright. russell long. these guys are powerful guys. thurman. all these southern democrats were all against him and they were the power houses of capitol hill and they were all seggies. they were all segregationists. >> right. he had to reach across to get this done. he did so ever adeptly. this great phone conversation in the book, he said i was just in illinois, jour home state, the land of lincoln. you're worthy of being in the land of lincoln. i'm going to make sure if you support this bill, you will get proper credit. when he signed the bill into law, he gave the first pen to everet. >> medicare is another one of those issues that the democrats especially pushing force since the new deal.

how did he get that through. that was a tougher one. huh did he do that? >> one of the ways he did it is by out flanking the american medical association. he did so by calling the ama to the white house. the head of the ama has a immediating at the oval office. he asked the head of the ama if he could be willing to send doctors to vietnam in order to tend to the civilian population. lyndon johnson calls a white house press conference knowing full well they would ask if the white house supports medicare, and sure enough they do. he says of course. these doctors are sending boys to vietnam. of course. they're patriots. they're going to support the law of the land and the head of the

ama said we will support medicare and 90% of the doctors did in the immediate days thereafter. >> could johnson have done these amazining achievements if there wasn't that pall over the country because of kennedy. the sense that something should be done in honor of this man being killed. >> i think he push eed civil rights through. you're talking about a man who did have a will and incomparable powers of persuasion. if you look at 1965 alone, when he won the office in his own right, it's remarkable what he pushed through in that single year. that's because he knew how to work with the opposition, and he knew how to spend political capital. >> that included the voting rights act. what a great job you've done

here. thank you so much. when we return, let me finish with the unpredictable election for president. it's coming our way. it's totally unpredictable. [ male announcer ] what's the beat that moves your heart? how about the beat of a healthy heart? campbell's healthy request soup is delicious, and earned this heart, for being heart healthy. ♪ feel the beat? it's amazing what soup can do. feel the beat? ♪ when your chain of supply goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ chips from here, boards from there track it all through the air, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ clearing customs like that hurry up no time flat that's logistics. ♪ ♪ all new technology ups brings to me, that's logistics. ♪

let any finish with this. the trayvon martin case has focused the attention country's attention these days. we will be back on the

presidential election full-time. when we are we will behold startling sight. a close hot race for the american residency. i'm convinced that the american people are in for a tight one. for one thing they want it that way. they want to see the candidates duke it out giving it their absolute best. they see this race as a reason one. both president obama and mitt romney will loom as reasonable considerations for this country's highest office. reasonable. i say this because i watched a couple of factors that will con front the president with a strong challenge this november. first the opponent. whatever romney lacks in ka ris ma he commands in organizational ability. he has the contact, reputation with other business people and the competence to assemble and ramrod an organization that's been powerful enough and disciplined enough to destroy all the candidates who have gotten in his way. they haven't wasted money. they spent just enough to knock

the other guy out in states that the other guy needed much to win. will this work in the general election? perhaps not the same way. the fact is you play your strengths in this political business and the romney campaign has shown the ability to play his. the other factor that offers evidence that this will be quite the challenge for obama is the economy itself. it's not steaming ahead unfortunately. the growth weight is well belove 3%. that is not strong enough to bring people back to work and the numbers that will instill confidence ha the country is headed back to business. we have gasoline price problem that will drain money from the economy as the summer grows hotter. whether he have a housing problem. count on the president being