well, good monday afternoon to you, i am dillon radigan and i'm happy to be with you, our big story, of course election 2012 and what we like to call "is that all there is"? ♪ is that all there is ♪ if that's all there is my friends ♪ ♪ then les keep40% of

us, myself included, register and identify as independents. that, by waithe way, a record h. this year, in fact, we have the beginnings of a couple new movements. one, no labels, and there is an internet-driven platform called americans elect. but when you ask all the n"the inside insider"s and lawmakers, they don't agree with it. now seeking the libertarian

nomination, and linda killian, senior scholar and author of the book "the swing vote, the untapped power of independence." linda, we'll start with you. isn't the genius of the two-party political system that as long as they keep a close primary without a primary challenger, and as long as they prevent alternate candidates, like governor johnson -- or it could be anybody -- from being a loud seed at the table, you could have 5% democrat, 5% republican and have 90% republican as long as the democrats control who gets to run. >> dylan, i couldn't agree with you more. like you, i'm an independent. turnout is down. as you said, is that all there is? people are not excited. turnout in only states where turnout was higher than 2008 by percentage were in

the states where independents got to vote. states like new hampshire and south carolina. i'm a huge proponent of open primaries because you're totally right. when independents, 40%, more than either democrats or republicans, when they can't participate, you don't have a democratic system. >> gary, what are the layers of this system as somebody who has nav gaigated inside the republi party system and now navigated inside the libertarian party structure. what are the barriers by someone not supported by the dnc and rnc mounting a presidential campaign? >> in my case, rnc wasn't standing up to the fact that i was being excluded from debates because my name wasn't in the polls to determine who got in the debate. so i think what's significant -- i am running for the lirer teben nomination for president.

for me what's significant is the libertarian nominee will be on the ballot in all 50 states. i don't think you can discount that, given that 82% of americans are saying they would consider voting for a third party. and given the fact that the largest political affiliation in the country is independent. i also happen to think that the majority of americans fall in the category of being fiscally conservative and socially tolerant. now, that's okay to have that philosophy. i have that philosophy. i think libertarian politics embraces that policy, but you have to identify the problems, you have to identify the solutions to the problems, and then you have to have a resume that says, yes, you would go and doggedly pursue that agenda. so that's not all there is. >> when you look at the gerrymandering and the look of partygoers to make sure that party challengers never emerge,

when you look at the sort of mafia style politics that both -- that these two parties run, knowing that the only way they can maintain their disgusting and sort of annihilative race to the bottom that's costing america its independence, its wealth, its jobs, i could go on and on, really the only way to do it is by restricting our choices. >> i totally agree. along with primaries, i also talk about restricting and gerrymandering. you only have 60 seats in the congress that are public. in most states the public can't even testify about the redistricting. and you really need to have -- you would have a totally different system, a totally different politics if you limited the influence of money and if you allowed the independents to participate.

>> isn't the point of a democracy is to have, gary, the voters be connected to who they vote for? isn't the best way to connect the voters and the voted to have competitive elections that are transparent and with choice? i don't get when we claim these values as a country, they're looking to restrict the very values they proclaim to support. >> i've run for two political offices in my life, governor of new mexico and reelection of governor of new mexico. i went and i introduced myself to the republican party a couple weeks before i announced my candidacy in new mexico. what they said was, well, we like you, we like what you've got to say, but you need to know you'll never get elected. but we're going to have you included in everything. we think it would be great for the process. so i'm a result of having a very inclusive process that allowed me to go to all these functions and be able to state my case. >> but are you suggesting, then, that my complaint and misguided?

are you suggesting that it's not -- >> no. on a national level, i think you're right on. >> you're a function of the microculture of what we wish existed nationally. >> i believe that i was going to encounter that same phenomenon running nationally. by the way, this is coming out of the closet here, too, for me. this is a permanent change. arguably, i got to be libertarian governors for eight weeks under the guise of being a republican. i really do think that libertarians embrace the best of both parties, but we'll see. pie in the sky for me in this whole scenario is potentially being on the national debate stage against obama and romney. to do that i would have to poll at 15%. right now i'm polling at 7%. i think it's more a function of being the third name.

i am the third name, but there is that possibility. and also with ron paul not being successful, i wish him all the luck am the world but i don't think he's going to be the republican nominee. from my standpoint, he and i are really talking about the same message, and that message comes to an end, and some of these other sort of wobbly but developing organizations. >> i was just going to mention that. you mentioned americans elect. they have $35 million that a lot of rich people have funded this organization. that's enough money to get on the ballot in all 50 states. and they probably will be on the ballot in almost all of 50 states. they'll be first. we don't know who their candidate is going to be yet.

so. of this group that is dissatisfied, 19% of all voters in 1992 voted for ross perot. that 20% is sloshing around. i investigate in "the swing vote," in my book, of the 40% who are independent, at least 20%, half of almost a quarter, of all registered voters are true swing voters. and they are up for grabs in this election. obama is now doing better with them, usa today, gallop has a poll out showing ibm. there's two romeres.

>> congratulations on the swing vote. we're on the same page in looking down the line. it will be interesting to see how these parties can keep them boxed out before we normally perform the electoral process. i hope it doesn't get too much more screwed up. right here on the d.r. show, the burden of paying for college wreaking havoc on a whole new demographic. did you have any idea there are billions being banished against our retirees'social security checks? the most dynamic astrophysicist explains why we can't wait to another store.

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♪ strea-ea-ea-ea-eam ♪ ...stream, stream, stream... ♪ whenever i want you, all i have to do is... ♪ [ female announcer ] introducing xfinity streampix. stream your favorite movies and full seasons of shows instantly on any screen. find out more online. are you, young americans, not the only ones suffering in our education system. in fact, there are stunning new numbers out from the federal reserve bank suggesting that americans 60 years and old are currently due $36 billion in student debt. 1 in 10 of those over 60 in

american are delinquent on those loans and many are even having their social security checks garnished to pay back the student debt. time now for our monday mega panel. i think i set up the issue here. msnbc contribute tore laura webber, sam cedar, host of "the majority report." obviously we're not going to solve financing for higher education at this table, nor are we going to solve the debt liabilities of american seniors or anybody else. you do have to wonder, houwever how screwed up does the country have to get before we have a broader liability of the cost of education. that's what i think when i see this, not how we're going to fix it, rob, but how smelly and nasty does it have to get before

we elevate the nature of the debate? >> education is very costly. the report we're looking at says it goes up 6% every year. you know, there is another issue about priorities. one of the funny things is we talk about tax codes and changing taxes. we look at the deductibility of mortgage interest payments. lbos, for example. yet we have no such thing for education in this country. it's absurd. of course, if you don't fix the returns relative to the amount of money you put into education, you'll have another bubble like the housing bubble. but it's got me thinking we have a completely mistaken tax system. it rewards you for nothing. >> how much is the same function as we do have these two political parties which have a stranglehold on the debate, and as a result there is not a third candidate, there is not a third or fourth voice that comes into

the room and says, those of you all are bought and paid for and out to lunch, and the real issue is the cost of the education continues to rise, the yields continue to rise, we learn how people learn and we don't apply the new techniques learned in our education system because we don't know how to test for it. how do we revise this system that's been there for years? >> i don't know if it's a function of our money or politics have dictated. i don't know necessarily that we get a third party it's not going to have the same impact. it's not just the function of a tax code. student debt one of the only things you can't get rid of in bankruptcy. the idea that you can loan money, get interest rates on it with no chance of default is absurd. it's absurd. and frankly, what you see is when you start to cut the education budget of the state university programs, this is what you get.

we should be providing free higher education in this country and then we wouldn't have to worry about subsidizing the private loan industry. we would save money and we would make sure that people get an education. because i'm not sure that we can just measure the return on that education in terms of how much it helps you in the marketplace. >> we can't even debate this in this country. we have a presidential election. congress's approval rating is at 10%. americans have more for north korea than we do for congress. i could pick energy today, i could pick any of these issues. none of them are a subject in the presidential debate. >> absolutely, and it really is quite extraordinary. education is key to innovation. i just want to say about this that the shift at the moment in the american work force, seniors now make up 18% of the american work force, from 13% ten years ago, paying off debt, whatever and so forth. they're still in money trouble.

of course, that's impacted younger people because they're not getting out of the work force, and young people make up 40 to 50% of the work force, lower than it's been since 1958. >> and the two-party political system, it won't be happening any time soon, don't you worry about that. now on to international news that some people like to talk about once in a while. the latest attempts to quell the assad regime using things like predator zones, friends of syria considering 60 nations, including the u.s., providing additional aid to rebels over the weekend. secretary of state hillary clinton continued her rhetoric to assad. >> we have agreed not only sanctions but a means of enforcing them. we now have a sanctions committee. that was quite an accomplishment because this group consists of a

lot of countries that are really the mainstays of the syrian economy. we wanted to have a timeline because we don't want to give assad the excuse of being able to negotiate with no end. >> so i saw this, and obviously you're like, okay, i get it. then i start thinking about how the u.s. financed the taliban to fight the russians in the '80s, rob. >> that worked out pretty well. we did, of course, help get the russians out of afghanistan, but then we created a whole bunch of hungry martyrs. >> yeah. and this is one of those ones where, i don't know if it's damned if you do and damned if you don't because we don't know who they're financing. they could well be the taliban or the equivalent thereof. they could be mary poppins, too. i don't know who they are. >> from overall policies, we do know that we're financing more war. regardless of who it is, we're financing, you know, the purchase of more weapons and we're weaponizing the situation,

and i think, frankly, the bottom line, and we've said this before, there are some situations where there is no good answer. and so, you know, there may not be anything for us to do in this situation. we talk about sanctions. i'm not quite sure that sanctions particularly help in these situations. it certainly didn't help in the lead-up to iraq. all we know is we pov riserished the children didn't have anything to eat. >> assad has called it something equivalent to an act of war. now there's a cease fire that comes out today. you don't want to trust anything that man said, but this is leading potentially to some sort of revolution. i don't know what kind of revolution there can be, a cease fire where people put down their weapons. >> that's sort of a half full narrative suggests there is an implied threat here that maybe assad responds to.

>> that only happens when you get assad on board like in the press conference with obama a couple weeks ago. it's all about russia and getting a peace treaty and so forth, and russia has the one naval base in the mediterranean in syria. there's been talk about maybe that naval base could go to greece, i've seen reports about that. but until russia moves, we're not going to begin to have a solution. >> is there any sort of diplomatic capacity with russia that would even care to talk about helping us? >> they need to know assad is going to go. they'll jump ship for assad eventually. >> so once they know their guy is done -- >> exactly. >> so assad is mubar? >> yes. coming up next -- >> the beginning of your program, your earth is spinning

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it shifts the mindset of the nation that enables people to say, hey, science and technology enables these discoveries? even if you're not a scientist or technology, you would value that activity. >> we would be investing in our future. >> yes, and without it, we might as well just slide back to the cave because that's where we're headed right now, broke. >> can i say something? tyson for 2012!

tyson for 2012! >> that was his take on a time when the rate of change on this earth is the highest it's ever been. meanwhile, our space shuttles are grounded, china, india and russia all trying to obtain frontiers at a time when the rate of change is the highest it's ever been. our next cast says it's like falling into an abyss, and unlike state races, we shouldn't wait for war to get our acting gear. this is the director of the hayden planetarium at the national center of history. his book is in stores now. you have a pretty receptive audience here, i think. rob is always a little skeptical.

we bring him for that reason. what are the stakes? obviously, we could talk about going to space. you're not going to space, but you're making a broader point which is, if we don't have a rapidly moving forward culture that values science and technology when our rate of change is high, then we got problems. i'd like to know what you think the stakes are. >> i have very little to add to what you just said. >> what can we learn here? >> the point is, it's not just are we in space, it's are we advancing in space frontier? because when you advance in space frontier, you have to innovate in a way you're not doing the day before. when you innovate, discoveries are made, patents are awarded and new ways of accomplishing things are reached. so there is the spinoff of that. we all know about space spinoffs, but more important, when you do this in a big way, it gets written large in the weekly headlines of what is discovered in space, what are the astronauts doing next? >> you have some kind of broader culture?

>> yes! because when that happens, it spills out into your culture, and all of a sudden everyone realizes, hey, i want to be a scientist or engineer because that's the frontier i want to participate in. you don't have to be the scientist or engineer, you could be a journalist, an artist, but you start doing more stories about the frontier. and all of a sudden everybody participates in inventing a tomorrow. and it's the invention of tomorrow that is absent in today's modern american culture. tomorrow was everywhere in the 1960s, wasn't it? the world's fair was all about tomorrow. and who enables that tomorrow? it's the science and technological literacy of a nation that does it. and it's those that are the engines of the 2000 economy. we will fade on the world stage just by standing still.

>> i was recently speaking to a middle school class, and i said to the kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? a few said journalist. >> congratulations. >> one kid said hedge fund manager, another kid said investment banker. nobody said astronaut. when i was a kid, it was about becoming an astronaut, right? i was born in 1967. it was all about that. what you're saying is it's the aspiration of culture and innovation that is key to getting us into this new world. >> the world needs journalists and probably needs investment bankers but not to the exclusion of who in vents tomorrow. the investment banker needs somebody to invest in to make tomorrow happening and that's going to be the scientist and in the stem field. and when you look at what fields they reach for, there's biology because we're looking for life on mars, the chemistry, the aerospace engineering, the

mechanical engineering, the electrical engineering. >> the stateability of the environment in general off the earth. >> all of this. and you can look at directly related -- i'm just talking about direct spillage of enthusiasm. venus is 90 degrees fahrenheit. i calculated you can cook a 27-inch pepperoni pizza from the windowsill. good for pizza, bad for people. >> pizza is bad for people, anyway. >> so i want to understand what knobs got turned on venus, because that's an important dead planet that something happened there. mars once had liquid water coursing over its surface. it's all bone dry now. meamdering river beds, dry. flood plains, dry. dried lake beds like salt lake in utah. you see the mineral deposits

left from standing water that had evaporated. if something bad happened on mars, too, i want to know. >> i want to come back to that for a second. >> not for too long. >> we mentioned in the '60s, it was all about tomorrow. >> yes. in spite of that being a pretty bloody decade. >> there's been a conservative effort, but there is a cohort of a political party, even among the most educated, whose faith in science has dropped in the last 20 years. what accounts for that? >> i have an idea. i think it's because the government hasn't participated in a big science project where the discovery is written in the papers. back then it didn't exist, or they didn't have a voice. it was too much in the culture. you couldn't stand in denial of it. now there's nothing there to talk about. >> if that was the case, you would see it across the board. but, i mean, frankly there's a

specific political party that is out to demonize science in some ways, to undercut the faith in it. >> but don't you think his point that if it was in our face culturally, the vacuum of c conspicuous science in our culture -- >> i want to talk about richard glasser's private money coming into this. >> but he's not advancing a space frontier, he's not leading a hacharge to mars. he can't because it's expensive with unknown costs and unknown risks. when you combine those three factors, you cannot establish a capitalization of that. that's why the government does the first big steps. once routine is established, then private enterprise comes back in. nasa no longer has a supporter.

the back end where the patents are. >> i'm sorry to be the skeptical. how do we pay for this? >> no, it's an investment. >> i realize that, sir. but we're not as rich as we are. you know what i mean. >> but he's making an interesting point, though, which is that our culture right now does not value a national investment in science. it in. context of it is this investment and this innovation of science and technology that are the engines of tomorrow's economy. forget the discovery. i'll go because i like to discover but i'm not going to require that of everybody who supports it. i'm going to tell you we are sliding into poverty as a

nation, and there goes the health of nasa and there goes the american economy, is my assertion here. half a penny, double it to a penny. then we can go to mars in a big way, have a spaceship ready to deflect that asteroid that has my name on it, there might be giopolitical arguments to do all of the bovt or none of the above. space becomes our backyard and everybody involved is in no vagt. >> and you would invent a tomorrow for the derespondent culture of today. >> and that would reverb rate down the halls. by the way, nasa is not going up and back, they're basically going back and forth. >> you're calling richard branson an amateur. >> a wealthy amateur.

there's more to it than just going up and down. >> i think steven hawking is the only one getting a free chair. thank you for sharing your enthusiasm with us and your perspective and your science. the book is "space chronicles, facing the ultimate frontier." there's the cover. megan as well. as we take a break here, we turn our attention to a more pedestrian issue, a woman claims she bought her multi million winning ticket after work, not as part of the pool. you know what i'm saying. [ kate ] many women may not be properly absorbing

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money? >> do you have the ticket? >> this doesn't count? >> the photocopy doesn't, no. >> they tell me tammy has it who is probably the most trusted staffperson and she's probably not going to let me have the money. indeed, not going to let you have the money. that was the friendly host, me, parsing through the legalities of how to deal with an office pool debt in a lottery. they're trying to figure out how much of my staff's potential mega millions i had a right to when i was host of the show. the attorney told me i was entitled to none of it. luckily for me, they lost. regardless, there were some very important lessons in that conversation, specifically, if you buy a ticket with a group of people, make sure before you leave that everyone has a pho photocopy of the ticket that the group purchased. that's a big deal. why, you ask?

well, sure enough, controversy popping up in maryland around a woman who says she is holding one of the three winning tickets from the record $656 million drawing already. already just a rumor is putting her at odds with 15 coworkers at mcdonald's who says she bought it with a pool. obviously they didn't make photocopies. so the winner brings $105 million a year for 26 years. but if you're splitting it with 15 colleagues in the office pool, all of a sudden your dow. hey, not bad, considering what's 1/15 of a lottery ticket. of course, the woman is refusing to show anyone the winning ticket, so the whole thing could be a hoax which makes you wonder, what could be worse, trying to trick your coworkers

out of their money or having to go back to work because you didn't actually have the ticket? after this, a cautionary tale of what comes after a political revolution of any kind. here's a hint, it's not necessarily a democratic happy ending, and frequently it is the culture, not the rules, that dictate how people of any country will ultimately behave. [ male announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult.

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we're back with the story of an island paradise in political turmoil. the maldives, a collection of 12 islands in the indian ocean. they seem to be going from a totalitarian rule to an uprising in the election and away from those autocratic governments. but the first ldemocratically elected president, was ousted right after the election. the military had the power in this instance and turned against

him. we've all seen the wave of revolution spread throughout the arab world and elsewhere. we're also seeing what happens when the people in power change the names at the door, but the culture of how power is administered doesn't. president nashid met with u.s. state department officials just this past friday, and he joins us today, along with film director john shank who documented the journey in a film entitled "the island president," which is playing now in select u.s. cities. it's a delight to welcome both of you to our set. walk us through a little bit of what you feel you've learned from what you've experienced up to this point of rising influence, obviously working i can't imagine how hard for how long to put yourself in such a posture to achieve victory only to find that the very base culture really hadn't changed

that much regardless of the rhetoric and the electoral system. >> thank you very much, and thank you for having us. we had elections in 2008 when i was fortunate enough to have been elected. that did away with a very long history of dictatorship in the maldives. this was the first time we were able to have a fair election. but what we understood from it was that it was one thing to win an election and do away with the dictatorship, but another thing to install the concept of democracy and to flush the dictatorship. the old dictatorship is back again in the maldives. he was hind the coup and the military staged it, and now he has a cabinet and all his friends again in government. it's a very sad state of

affairs. we feel that we have to be able to have elections in the maldives to get the country back on track. >> are you getting support to that end? >> initially, it was very disappointing. it was shocking that the united states government initially recognized the need, but i think as time went by and they understood the situation on the ground, we are seeing them realigning to believe that there should be early electionses ine maldives. >> john, speak to us about culture and the culture of power regardless of who occupies that power or how they achieved it and how determined, really, the culture is as to how we treat each other in any society. >> you know, we walked into a brand new democracy in the maldives in 2009. our camera was going to places we wouldn't even dream of in our own democracy let alone a new democracy. it was really incredible to be behind the scenes in this new

political situation in the maldives. yet when we had meetings about logistics and around the capitol of the maldives, they would be done in whispers. because the shadow loomed over the maldives so much, they feared being heard. i think that's what nasheed is talking about, is whether this dictator had such an enormous impact. obviously, they're still there today. >> you were saying to me right before we came on the air that there is an aspect -- there is an indication, the harmonics, if you will, the vibrations in your nation frequently foreshadowing or in parallel to the overall dynamics in the middle east. explain that. >> very often it has been a precursor of what happened in

the middle east. we had elections in 2008, and we got rid of mamun. he studied all his life, so we were able to get rid of maumoon, and two or three years later, the egyptians were able to do exactly the same. my message to the egyptian democracies is the creator dictatorship comes back with a vengeance. we have to be able to flush the dictator relationship, and most often, keep out the institutions or rather the ruling party. it is very, very important to have a democracy and also increase capacity to independent institutions to do that. i now have some experience in how it may turn out if we are unable to do that. we were not able to form the judiciary, we were not able to

form the military, nor were we able to form the police and they have been hiding behind these institutions. that also would link the international community to a very large extent to believe that this was a transfer of power. it was nothing like that. i was forced to resign. this was the military and the police who didn't do as we wanted them to do. >> we're almost out of time, john, but the fact of the matter is it's incredibly difficult to create a democratically elected president in an totalitarian culture. it's virtually impossible to get everything at the same time. >> something nasheed is trying to do is produce justice in his country and then work of justice in climate debate.

it's rare that world leaders are. obviously, it should be an example, whether you're the president or not, as i can see. as you continue your crusade across the border. i know our mom gives, if you don't have to live there and sink into it. >> it gives a very clear picture on not knust the prime ate issue issues after the ousted president of the maldives after being the first democratically elected president in the country's history. the island president. you can see, coming up after

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monday's daily rant. >> hey, dylan. the family so fears him that when he reached the ripe old age of 100, his family still wouldn't have any contact with him. the reason? he was last arrested for molesting young children at the age of 90. he used his persona as the friendly grandparent type with

parents who let him baby sit their children. it leads to one of the most complicated legal questions ever. is it ever acceptable for someone to be incarcerated for a crime that they are likely to commit someday? usa today recently investigated a complex program in which the u.s. justice department has sought to keep some of the most dangerous sexual predators behind bars after the conclusion of their prison sentences. according to usa today, of the 136 cases, the justice department has lost or dropped 61 cases while winning court approval to continue obtaining just 15 of the men. on the face of it, this may sound like a cut and dried civil rights issue. after all, a former judge, whom i interviewed about this issue, pointed out the whole concept about the criminal justice system is you're incarcerated for the crime you commit. but snider went on to add that sex crimes are more difficult to prosecute than other crimes. and for that reason, she thinks

civil confinement is a kind of solution worth looking into. for instance, if the child is a victim of a sex crime, it can be tough to put a seven-year-old on the witness stand and yet the recidivism rate for sex crimes are extremely high. in other words, if someone gets convicted and they get out of prison, they will likely stop committing the crime. they will likely try to reoffend. in fact, most performed many before getting caught. you may think it's about protecting the theodore sypniers of the world. i don't think so. i think the big question is