air, then, right? >> anyway, nice to see you, keli. keli goff. "hardball with chris matthews" kicks off right now. the romney plan help the ri rich, cut the poor. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. leading off tonight, the buffett rule. can mitt romney and republicans make the case that wealthy people like him should pay lower tax rates than the middle class? well, the obama campaign is trying to make them do exactly that, betting that this so-called buffett rule, that billionaires should not pay a lower rate than their secretaries, is a winning issue. republicans, of course, are hoping americans hate taxes so much, they'll propose raising

them even on the lauren buffetts in the world. plus, we got another example of how far people look and how something smells foul when they're asked to endorse mitt romney. how do you nominate a guy that even once wants to see president obama depp feated. . . finally, let me finish with how the historic divide of church verse state keeps social justice and peace in this world. we begin with mike halpern. he's a national political correspondent for new york magazine and also msnbc

political analyst. how did you get the title see more, all. . president obama. last week which is could take up to next week. let's watch. >> if thaet the case that members of congress want to make, then we're going to make sure every american knows about it. if you make more than a million dollars annually, then you should pay at least the same percentage of your income in tax as middle class families do. i intend to keep fighting for this kind of balance and fairness until the other side starts listening, because i believe this is what the american people want. >> wow. well, meanwhile, mitt romney has to break the paul ryan budget plan with all the cuts which dramatically lowers taxes on upper class americans but

hurting poor people. he's talking about tax cuts. let's hear romney. >> this president believes in higher taxes. he doesn't want to say that, he just wants to do that. i want to reduce the marginal tax rates across the board every every in america. cut out the special deals and get america working again. >> fchl yl did the republicans ar army. and the way to get the poor people off their butt and work hard federal. now they're worried you get rich, people will work harder by giving them stuff, poor people will work harder by taking away their stuff. how does that work, politically? >> if it works, i think fundamentally, chris, by the

aspiration, of up pe. in a fair society, if they're playing by the rules, get rich themtsz, they will be happy and they will be motivated, and therefore they will be end up accepting the notion that the benefits of being rich accrued to those who work hard. i think the part that has gotten askew -- >> wait a minute, we're getting tax breaks to the people who have already made this money. if you look at the latest efforts. most benefits and tax cuts frr people z this is what their theory is, ben. and in the past. >> as you only you know, is the

premise. the premise was fair. if you worked hard and played by the rules, a government bas business. we need to make the system more fair, sow. playing by the rules won't necessarily let you rich, but it won't pay like it has in the pa past. according to the center for our budget and political parties, ryan's budget includes cuts to medicaid and other health programs. pell grants, poor kids who want to go to college and other social services, there's also been cuts stamp program. it is ironic, isn't it, if you think the way to goose a rich

person to give him a tax cut after he's made all this money, and you've had boosts null, a worki working. you go to college. >> chris, the democrats'. thaet one of the most compelling things in my career. i don't understand how they're able to make that argument, including barack obama, who won. it's not just a fairness to individuals but also to the overall workings of the system, as your question suggests. i don't understand why they can't make it successfully.

people think they get .52. if you make over a half million a year, you make 8.8%. if you pass a million a year, you make 12.5. this is clearly identifiable, for anybody who is paying attention now, that this deck is stacked against people unless they make -- and again, they're rewarding people for money she would have already made, not aspiration. the chance to get a heart transplant, the chance of getting phone for your kids for lunch. how does smacking poor people and smack iing -- there is a tol difference here. >> i wondered what the republicans were thinking after putting these things forward.

what i like about the ryan plan is it not calling for shared sacrifice. ryan paul is trying to say, we have a serious issue in terms of long-term structural benefit. but the big flaw police alley on the best in our society to make, it's more important to those of us on the lower end of the economy scale. they haven't won in the past. i think is. they seem to go making a lot of headway with this vote with swing votes across the country. >> it came out with william greiner's page in the rolling ston. the whole thing was a trojan horseback thing.

they said they were cutting the rates on the board for everybody so the talks will be down. >> wow. >> another troenl an hotter coming our way. >> this republican budget is something altogether. it is a trojan horse disguised as reduction plans is really an attempt to impose a radical vision on our country. it is social darwinism. it is ampithetical inability. >> it's hard to know whether they're about.

>> in the '80s, it was focused on reagan. the trojan horse, here we'll help the media, we're almost stild out by the. it says how much you lit them those really are scaled back and eliminated for the upscale americans. that would put us in a much more balanced way. >> sure, but he hasn't made either one of them. >> he's migrated towards them. i think people praising him for his courtesy and honesty, you might find, that is, a pro peach up upon. he brags about being a dealmaker

for mr. ryan. claim at some point you're going to plug the loobholes which means to loopholes which means they're never be plugged. we'll just have a bigger debt and more wealth to the wet i. >> i think it's incumbent on congressman rosemarry if you want to. >> they're all going to eat first. -- they wanted lower top rates, too, flatten out the top coat, but in spes physician t. >> the big talk about this show in the next six months is the

brend brendan. what the republicans want to do for the rich is give them more money, encourage them to work harder, cut health care and education, especially health care for the poor to encourage them to supposedly work harder. it looks like darwinism. i think the president has a point. thank you, gentlemen, as always, mike halpern and john raleigh. coming up, another big name republican passes up the chance to endorse mitt romney. they are so slow. they say they like this guy. this is like a wedding when you really got cold feet and they all seem to have it. this time it's ohio governor john casek. i think they're leaving this guy at the alter. how do you endorse a guy nobody even wants to endorse? this is a problem for romney. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "hardball." here's a question for historians and political scientists. can you win a party's nomination for president when hardly anyone in the party likes you? mitt romney seems ready to test that proposition big time, even now that his nomination seems inevitable, the big names remain deeply reluctant, shall we say, to deeply em brabrace this guy. it seems they will tolerate mitt romney, and that's about it,

only on the premise that he beats president obama. they want somebody to beat obama. religiously, i must say, managing editor of the post. anybody listening in the washington area knows it comes to that precious time of the week, monday morning, when you want to know what's going on, what have you missed over the weekend and you tell us. let's start with john casek. he has worked with fox. here he was just yesterday answering david gregory on "meet the press" on whether the republican nomination fight is over. >> i'll wait until we have a nominee and, listen, the party will get its act together. it will be very competitive in the fall. >> well, you know, i like casek. he's a regular guy in the congress. he worked at fox. you know, he doesn't like romney

because romney is an elitist. he's trying to be a working class republican and he knows you can't get away with that hanging out with guys like romney. is that a strong statement? >> i think that's a little strong telling about his relationship or how he feels about him. welcome back, chris. i think the reality is, i think your opening, though, is correct. i think you're seeing the parties settle. i think the party is going to come, as we've been talking about for pay long time -- this is no news, really -- >> when you get married, do you sort of look forward to it? >> i'm not going to equate getting married to choosing someone for president. >> you're telling me they don't have cold feet.

>> you're telling me stuff people already know. this has been baked into the equation for some time now. >> it's not april, it's not january anymore, we're not up there in iowa anymore, we're not in new hampshire, we're not in all those states, we're not in michigan, we're not in ohio, we're not in nevada, all those states were covered. the nomination is pretty much wrapped up and they still can't say we love you. they can't say the words. >> you know, kasek, i would say in a vacuum kasek is saying, let's let it play out. politics doesn't exist in a vacuum. go back to jeb bush's endorsement of mitt romney. >> okay. >> let's watch here. here's kasek with his hands-off approach even from republicans who have endorsed romney. catch his words here.

mark rubio wasn't exactly sputtering with excitement when he endorsed the guy last month. we have a whole bunch of these coming. let's listen. >> i am going to endorse mitt romney, and the reason why is he's not only going to be the republican nominee but he offers such a stark contrast to the president's record. >> okay. ic i'm stuck with him and hate obama. he got a rather back-handed endorsement from george petage. >> i think it's time to rally around the presumptive nominee. mitt is not a perfect candidate. he has a number of problems. it's hard for him to get blue collar families like mine to identify with him, it's hard for economic conservatives to identify with him, he needs to do more to reach out to the latinos, but i think he has to focus on that and on defeating president obama as opposed to winning the next primary in the

next state. >> which group did he leave out? one more, here's jeb bush. he finally came out for romney. his statement wasn't brimming with enthusiasm, either. here's what jeb bush, who will probably be the nominee sunday, said, primary elections that be held in 34 states, and now is the time for republicans to unite behind governor romney and take our message of fiscal conservatism and job creation to all voters this fall. i am endorsing mitt romney for our party's nomination. >> no appearance with romney, nothing like that. the one thing i would say about the petage thing, i think we can now rule out george petage as a potential v. p. for mitt romney. chris, can i tell you one thing that i do think is important to remember here? this is not that dissimilar to

'04 when john carey had a head of the party, but ant the. kerry did not lose that nomination because they were excited about beating george w. bush. the republican party is never going to be in love with mitt romney, but they dislike obama enough that it may not matter. i don't believe -- if you go back to 2004, you will find the number of top democrats so unhappy with the nomination they had. >> of course, they were unhappy. they were just as unhappy as the top republicans are now. they were talking about the folks who didn't get in in 20.

. >> i've never seen a candidate that's more pawlenty. >> give me someone. >> who really likes cromby. i you can make the argument, chris, i agree with you. . we tried charismatic, we cried gracher. he puts all of the spotlight on

obama. . that is an argument plausibly made. mitt romney is never going to rival obama in charisma, never. >> if you're going to try to run with my charisma, and we try charm, let's go boring. he and jeb bush said is part of the argument. let's track what romney brings as experience as governor and someone in the business community. >> if he discusses to. yesterday it was taken notice on saturday night live. they go after mitt's ablgt to say yes to anybody that he's

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back to "hardball." first up, "saturday night live" went all the way this weekend with the charge that mitt romney will do or say just about anything to get votes. let's watch. >> governor romney stopped in dallas to address the national convention of the role-playing game association 2012. >> i can't remember a time when do dungeons and dragons wasn't a part of my life. >> later he made an appearance at the piercing convention. >> when i was asked just how many piercings do you have, i always say more than i need but less than i want.

>> governor romney appeared at the united jewish appeal. >> barack -- >> we don't believe you! >> okay. >> we got to november for him to say no more. i'm waiting for that night. we all know that mitt romney's father served as michigan's governor back in the '60s, but did you know that his mom lenore ran for the senate in 1970? it was unsuccessful, but they dug up this clip of a 23-year-old mitt trying to win some votes for mom. >> so many of our senators sometimes get so caught up in the political association. why, you could come up with a new bill and you could decide down the line on how everyone is going to vote, mostly on their political background and what party they're for. but she's to an idealogy that she can't analyze the situation

and vote in it and work in it completely candidly. >> there you have it. he may be running at a severe conservative right now, but his mother was running in the center, as he said as a 23-year-old. newt's big losses on super tuesday, so is the candidate coming around to romney having won? >> i think you have to be realistic. given the size of his organization, given the number of primaries he's won, he is far and away the most likely republican nominee. if he does get to 144 delegates, i'll do whatever i can to help him defeat obama. this is a great campaign, we've had great experiences, so some things work, some things don't work. >> wow. pretty humble for him. sounds like he's already quit, doesn't it? up next, the religious right

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get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. i'm brian sullivan with your cnbc market wrap. friday a disappointing jobs report sending the stocks down 130 points on the nasdaq. the dow down four sessions in a row. in the meantime, shares of aol -- remember them? surged to 84% after selling facebook for $1 billion. gas prices are creeping higher. according to the lumberg survey.

now back to "hardball." i think he's done a remarkable job on a shoestring budget. he has resurrected a political career that was dormant, and as his friend, i would say to him, you know, you ought to seriously consider leaving the race now. in eight years he'll be three years younger than romney is now. >> wow. welcome back to "hardball." that was richard lamb talking about presidential candidate rick santorum. mr. lan is a leader of the evangelical community, and rick santorum got big support from that group of voters. this weekend rick warren, founding pastor of the saddleback church, gave an indication that may worry the romney people. let's listen. >> are mormons christians?

>> well, the key sticking point fiore vor evangelicals, and act for many, is the trinity. that's the historic doctrine of the church, that god is three in one. not three gods, one god in father, son and holy spirit. mormonism denies that. that's a sticking point for a lot of catholic christians, evangelical christians, pentecostal christians, because they don't believe that. they'll use the same terminology, but they don't believe in the historic doctrine of the trinity. people have tried to make it other issues, but that's really one of the fundamental differences. >> let's start by general agreement that we detest religious tests for political office in this country. amy solven is senior editor for time magazine, and the author of space case initiatives. thank you, both, for joining us. this is a tricky question

because we have no religious tests. this is one of those things where we're trying to observe what has to be done with this. if you're a candidate like romney, what can he do, what does he have to do, what can he do facing the differences of religion that involve his mormonism, his membership in the lds church, and the fact that he's not exactly an evangelical emotionally or in terms of his background. your thoughts of how he's going to fit in with evangelical voters throughout the summer and into the fall. >> sure, chris. well, first of all, we should make clear we're talking about conservative evangelicals here. they're still pretty supportive of obama and a lot of moderate evangelicals have not shown a problem supporting romney. but he does have a sticking point there with the most conservative evangelicals. it goes far beyond just the question of whether they think he's conservative enough. there have been some fascinating numbers coming out of these

primaries, and one of the ones his campaign has to be paying close attention to is the fact that among very conservative republican voters, those who are not evangelical are okay with romney, pretty much. he's gotten about 43% of those votes throughout the primaries. but among very conservative evangelical voters, he's only getting about a fifth of those voters. those are the people that he's going to need on board. >> let me bring that up with david, because there is a factor i keep coming across in covering these primaries in the deep south. he never seems to be 28%. i don't know what's going to happen when nobody is running against him anymore. are they still going to vote against him in prthe primaries? i think the evangelicals on the right, they just don't want to vote for this guy. >> i'm about a beau watson, billy graham drive away in

hollywood. even if they're not the voting block, the interesting thing rick brings up in that quote is that evangelicals are probably the most biblically literate. they know the creeds of christianity, and that's a problem fiore v-- for for evangelicals to say, do i want a candidate oning against my faith? he's not running against anybody, he's running against president obama. a good 25 to 30% evangelicals will vote for president obama. the question becomes, for the evangelicals for whom romney's mormonism is a problem, what do they do?

do they stay home? do they actually vote for president obama, for somebody who is a christian? i mean, these are just interesting questions, ask i don't think there is a clearance right now. >> let me tell you, my understanding of this, amy, back when we had the decision by the supreme court saying no more prayer, no more king james reading of the bible in public schools, that sort of created the mormon majority. that's when people who hadn't been political became political. will they depoliticize themselves? >> we don't have a sense for that yet, because even in the primaries, we've seen more evangelical voters. that's where we were during the george bush years and beyond where we were in 2008. but it's not a sense of how

gallon v gall galvanized it is. they're trying to run against obama. we've had all these weekend summits by these religious rite leaders trying to come up with romney. now they'll reconcile themselves to the fact that he's going to be the nominee, but that doesn't suggest what people in the pews are going to do. >> let me say one quick thing. >> go ahead, david. >> one thing we have to be careful of here, amy is right, 50% or so have been evangelicals. it's also historically low primaries. but it's hard to draw conclusions. we're not talking about obama/clinton turnout from 2008. we're talking about remarkably.

it will be interesting when governor romney -- >> i want to get to this. romney itself. he know. last week as he was campaigning, mr. romney was asked a question about his faith. it was a simple question, actually. the questioner turned out to be a ron paul supporter, but that's not important. it's interesting to hear how his question turned. >> i'm sorry, we're not going to have a discussion about religion, in my view, but if you've got a question, i would be happy to answer the question. >> do you believe it's a sin

for. he didn't like the question why not? david. >> well, listen, you're getting now into this question that's a really interesting question about the religious test. clearly there's no religious test for candidate running for office. anybody can run for office regardless of their test. but the question becomes how much of an examination of that faith becomes a test. you know, to what degree are the views of the catholic church or the mormon church, the legitimate things for romney to talk about. he is one of the most religious men to ever run for office. he's one of the most generous men to the church in america. the question becomes, what does that look like? i've been in uganda in a horrible children's cancer ward, and there was one wheelchair there and it had the church of

jesus christ of latter day saints on it. >> they take care of people, a lot of work with their relief societies. up next, what "60 minutes" reporter mike wallace showed us all about fearlessness. this guy is gone now at the anyone ofage of 93. we're going to talk about it with his colleague. this is "hardball." [ female announcer ] want to spend less and retire with more? then don't get nickle and dimed by high cost investments and annoying account fees. at e-trade, our free easy-to-use online tools

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so why do banks do it ? hello ? hello ?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello ? ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. he was doing what? >> with you. >> why? >> when you boil it down to the gravy. you needed money. it's almost an kbarembarrassmen sir, to hear this from you. >> that was legendary newsman mike wallace, the "60 minutes" correspondent who passed away this weekend at age 93. he was a tough guy making incredible interviews week after

week. with me now is the equally great leslie stall, emmy award-winning correspondent who first met wallace back in '76. the best reason to have you on is to have you on, of course, but here we are. i don't think it's a sad moment, but i have to ask the jackie kennedy question. what's he like? >> he was feisty, he was tough, he was electric high energy, he was playful, and you know, he did miss where you saw -- he did pieces where you saw that. i don't know if you remember his interview with tina turner where he was flirting with her, and he fell in love with vladmir harowitz, and he let you see that he was smitten. he upped our game in the office. he made us all better.

he insisted we be tough ourselves. i love you starting off originally in the show saying he was fearless, because fearless. i think that mike wallace never passed in the night. >> how do you say that? any journalist knows you are a civil human being, and you may like a person, but at some point, you have to jam jam them where they don't want to the be jammed. >> he did that with ease. he was giving me a lesson. he was wonderful to me by the way he helped me. he said the trick to a good interview is you ask the question the people at home want you to ask. that they don't think you will. and when you ask it you can't be embarrassed or show that.

he said get over that, and go and work on this. >> let me ask you a tough question. >> when he pushed for you, who was against you joining "60 minutes"? there is a really wonderful story. ed bradley came in and said you're going to find out i was the one against it. and i said why? he said because he thought i was too washington. i had been in washington all those years. so he didn't think i could cover all of the different kinds of stories. >> leslie, you are one of the best ever white house correspondent there's have ever been because you were tough. let's look at a memorable moment when mike wallace interviewed nancy reagan. let's watch. >> what was your husband's role in the iran conflict? >> nothing.

>> he was president of the united states. >> i don't know enough about iran, mike, to talk to you intelligently about it. all i know is that he did not think he had done anything wrong. he didn't know of anything that was going on. >> you're going to be in japan, and i'm told it's a $2 million two weeks. they're getting two of us, working us like crazy. >> but it will be a well recompensated two weeks. >> it is for everyone that goes there which you probably know. you really didn't need that question. >> nancy reagan is so great, and there she is getting nailed by her buddy of 75 years, and he went right to the toughest questions. >> he just -- nothing stopped him from asking the heart of the question, whatever it was, whether it was his friend, and they were really close friends and had been from the time they were young.

he went after his bosses. you though that tobacco story, he went right after the big boss. and one of the bravest, one of the bravest things he ever did was come forward to the public and tell everybody he had depression. and he did it when it was a stigma. he was one of the first people to do that. he was an astonishing man. and i mean that in the most positive way. >> i say all those good things about you too, lesley, mike wallace, thank you. when we come up with a nice reason to have you on, we would love to get you back. >> when we return, let me finish with what separation of church means and doesn't mean. you're watching "hardball." whoa.

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let me finish tonight with something we were talking about earlier tonight. i just got back last night from paris having spent three great days walking the left bank with k cathy. back home this morning i read the "new york times" about easter sunday and the role that our moral values should play in public life. he was talking about jack kennedy 50 years ago when he talked about the separation of church and state. he said he would have cheered at what kennedy said to those

ministers about a person's right to lead the country regardless of religion, but that the separation of church and state doesn't mean a wall between one's faith and political decisions. i to say something about that today. we have rights because of people like dr. martin luther king. the values of christianity had a lot to do with fighting jim crowe and so did judaism. it's often, it not always, grounded in religious teaching. president kennedy said as much in june of '63. he called civil rights a moral issue as old as the scriptures. where do you use the force of law to mandate a moral judgment? i never heard anyone suggest in this society of ours we should

write laws effecting things like not eating meet on frind during lent. but even about abortion, it is rare, that i can't think of one that would punish the woman that makes that difficult choice to have an abortion. most of us, even if we do not admit it openly, dedicated as it is to individual freedom, can do to enforce deeply held moral commitments. so we go on. the powerful moral beliefs can be a compelling force for good. it can be a deep and powerful divider. let's hold high the separation of church and state, and let's not forget the role of faith-based morality and how retreat each other. the trayvon martin is a good reminder.