you can have the last word on our blog and follow my tweets. >> the romney plan, help the rich, cut the poor? let's play "hardball." >> good evening, can mitt romney make the case that wealthy people like him should pay lower taxes than the middle class? the obama campaign is doing that. the bufl rule that billion airs should not pay a lower rate than their secretary social security a winning issue. republicans are hoping that americans hate taxes so much they'll oppose raising them even on the warren buffets of the world.

we have another example of other republicans look when asked to endorse romney. how do you nominate a guy so few in your party want to even endorse at this point? plus the religious right wants to see president obama defeated but they have little use for romney himself, and the great lesleystahl joins us to talk about mike wals. and how chush church and state doesn't deny the role of faith based morality and social justice and peace in this world. we begin with mark halperin, and john hileman, he is a correspondent, and a political analyst. how did you get the title senior, mark?

>> i tipped the doorman. >> i have been away for a week, president obama and myth romney are pushing two very different agendas on taxes and economic growth. here was the president pushing the buffet rule which the senate is set to take up next week, let's watch. >> if that's the choice that members of congress want to make, then we're going to make sure every american knows about it. if you make more than a million dollars annually, then you should pay at least the same percentage of your income as middle class families do. and i intend to keep fighting for this fairness and balance until the other side listens. because i believe that's what american people want. >> and mitt romney embraced the ryan plan that cuts taxes on the wealthist americans. he frames it about tax cuts.

>> this president believes in higher taxes. he doesn't want to say that, he just wants to do that. i want to reduce the marginal tax rates across the board for everyone in america. cut out the special deals, limit the deductions and exemptions and get america working again. >> let me start with john with a very simple question about the way we argue politics in this country. why do the republicans argue, successfully at times that the way to get the rich to work harder is to give them more money, and the way to get the poor people off their butt is to cut their education benefits and health care, you get rich people to work harder by giving them stuff, and poor people work harder by taking away their stuff, how does that work? >> it works on the notion that america is an aspirational society. and the idea has always been that poor people and middle class people and lower middle

class people and upper middle class people aspire to be rich. and that in a fair society, if given incentive to work hard, play by the rules, get rich themselves, they will be happy and be motivated, and therefore they will end up accepting the notion that the benefits of being rich accrue to those who work hard. i think the part that has gotten askew over the course of the last -- >> we're giving tax breaks to people who already made this money. not making it. if you look at the latest numbering, we'll go through them, romney has a plan that gives the most benefits in tax cuts to the people who make a million or more. that's where the real money is for his tax cuts. >> i'm not advocating it, i'm just telling you what the philosophy is. what the theory has been. in the past, accusing democrats of being tax hikers has worked as you know over the course of many decades in american politics. i think one of the thing that's have changed is the presence.

it used to be that in a fair society -- that the system was fair. if you played by the rules you could get rich. the republicans are arguing that the deck is stacked against you, and they're playing to the notion that we need to make the system more fair so that you still have a chance to get rish, but the problem that republicans confront is most people don't think that working hard and playing by the rules necessarily gets you to be rich. so there is a notion that aspiration will not get paid off the way it has in the past. >> let's go to paul ryan's budget plan that has been accused of making deep tax cuts. budget and policy, ryan's budget includes cuts to medicaid and other health pell grants. for poor and working kids that want to go to college. also cuts for the digressionary programs. lets me go back to that same question. it is ironic if you think the way to goose a rich person is to

give him a tax cut, and the way to boost a working person is to take away what they already are limited in terms of health care. so you don't get an operation you need, the kid doesn't go to college -- how does that encourage aspiration if you will? >> chris, i think the democrats failure to win the argument about the tax cut benefits going disproportionately to the wealthy is one of the most pathetic failures in my career. i don't understand why the last three democratic nominees for president, including barack obama who won, are not able to make that argument. it's obvious, and it's not just for fairness, but for individuals and also to the overall workings of the system as your question suggests. i don't understand why they can't make it successfully but so far they haven't. >> let's look at the ryan tax cuts. for people that make less than 10 k -- they these are all less than 1% tax breaks.

now to the mother load. if you make between 200 and 500 john, it's between 2 and 5 percent. if you pass a million a year you get 12.5. this is identifiable that this deck is stacked against people and the less they make, and their rewarding people for money they already made. money they already made, give a break to the richest people. meanwhile taking away the chance of getting a heart transplant, the chance to get health care for your kids for poor people. how does kissing rich people and smacking poor people get the same kind of encourage nmt both cases. i think there is a real disconnect in the republican policy here. >> i totally agree, i tried to explain why republicans were thinking. i think the weak nns the ryan plan is it's not a plan that

calls for shared sacrifice. paul rien is trying to say we have a long-term fiscal issue here that deals with the long-term strul deficit. i the he is right about that. but the big flaw politically and substantively is it doesn't call on the people best off in our society to make sacrifices in order to better the society. it puts all of the burden on the people on the lower end of the income scale. mark is right, democrats should be able to win this argument and mark is right that they haven't won in the past. i think it's possible that the president prosecuting his argument successfully is within his grasp now. they seem to be making a lot of headway with swing voters across the country. >> the big lie as you know, i covered it back then, i was on the other side then, but it came out with william grooiners piece, the whole thing was a trojan horse back then. they said the top rates would come down.

the phrase trojan horse was used by them to get the tax cutting for the richest people back down. let's take a look at what we're seeing that the president said on tuesday about another trojan horse coming our way. >> this congressional republican budget is something different all together. it is a trojan horse. disguised as deficit reduction plans, it is really an attempt to impose a radical vision on our country. it is thinly vailed social darwinism. our entire history for a land of opportunity for everybody willing to work on it. >> the question of the structures, the term was trojan horse back in the '80s when they were getting the top rate down,

it looks like they're doing it again. we're here to help the middle, but really here to help the rich. >> there is one caveat not spelled out in the plan. eliminating loopholes, other people call them deductions for the wealthiest americans. >> he hasn't named one of them. >> he hasn't, but he has migrated to a rhetorical open without any specificity. i think people who praise him for courage and honesty should press him harder. and then you can recalculate the tables and find there is a proguess -- >> lower the rates for the rich, increase the federal deficit,

increase the debt down the road, and claim you're going to plug the loopholes without saying what loopholes which means they will never be plugged. we'll have bigger debt and more wealth to the wealthy. >> i think that's right, and mark is right about the fact that it's incumbent on congressman ryan if they want to say there is progress or shared sacrifice, they can't leave these blanks in the plan. they need to bite the bullet and tell us what they will do on those three things. you'll note that simpson bowls, what congressman ryan voted against, they went off with specificity some of those big deduction/loopholes to make sure people at the top would pay their fair share along the way. >> i think we need to make sure people know the facts about the fiscal policies. we have done a good job tonight.

there is disconnect between what republicans want to do, cut programs like health care, basic needs like education and health care, especially health care for the poor to encourage them to work harder. it looks like darwinism, i think the president has a point. thank you as always. a program note by the way, paul ryan will be a guest on "the today show" tomorrow morning. coming up, another big name republican passes up the chance to endorse mitt romney, they're so slow to endorse this guy. this time it's ohio governor. i think he is leaving this guy at the alter. how will this party get together on nominating a guy that nobody wants to endorse. this is romney's problem and it's "hardball" we'll be right back.

>> i talk about how president obama needs to do politically in pennsylvania and through the midwest.

we have polls from two of the states in the score board. first in michigan, a newly epic mra poll finds a closer race than you might expect. he leads by four points. in indiana, the reddest state, the president carried back in 2008, he is not counting on winning it again, a new poll has romney up, but republicans almost always get indiana, we'll almost always get indiana, we'll be right back. ma it the numberg anti-aging cream undeniably. it creamed unbelievably a $500 cream and now women have made regenerist microsculpting cream also unscented. women love it. in original and also fragrance-free. my feet and exactly where i needed more support. i had tired, achy feet. until i got my number. my dr. scholl's custom fit orthotics number. now i'm a believer. you'll be a believer, too. learn where to find your number at drscholls.com.

beth! hi! looking good. you've lost some weight. thanks. you noticed. these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? eating right -- whole grain. [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multi-grain cheerios -- 5 whole grains, 110 calories. creamy, dreamy peanut butter taste in a tempting new cereal. mmm! [ female announcer ] new multi-grain cheerios peanut butter.

>> welcome back to "hardball," here is a question for historians and political scientists, can you win a party's nomination for president when hardly anybody in the party likes you? mitt romney seems ready to test that even though the nomination is inevitable. the gop's big names remain reluctant to embrace this guy. it appears the republican establishment will tolerate mitt romney and that's it only under the condition he beats president obama.

they want somebody to beat obama. michael steele is former chairman of that committee, and chris cillizza is a columnist. the great thing about it is it come at that precious time of the week, monday morning when you want to know what is going on, what you missed over the weekend, and you tell us. let's start with the ohio governor that has worked at fox, an fortunate governor in a critical state. here he was yesterday on "meet the press" talking about whether the republican nomination fight is over. let's watch. >> i haven't endorsed -- i said anybody i endorsed or was for dropped out or didn't run. so i will wait until we have a nominee and the party will get it's act together, be competitive in the fall. >> i like him, i consider him a regular guy in the congress. worked at fox.

you know he doesn't like romney, because he is an elitest. he is trying to be a working class republican. >> i think that's a little strong. i think it assumes a lot about his relationship and how he feels about him. >> it's casic a regular guy? >> he is. >> follow that thought. >> okay, but i -- welcome back, chris. i think the reality is i think you're opening is correct. i think that you're seeing the party settle. i think the party is going to come, as we have been talking about for a long time, this is no news, really -- >> when you got married, did you look forward to it? >> i'm not going to equate getting married to selecting a guy for president. >> what's more important? >> getting married. >> quite frankly. >> okay good. >> so you're telling me they don't have cold feet?

>> chris -- you are talking about stuff people already know. this has been baked into this equation for some time now. >> but it's now april, it's not january anymore, we're not in iowa or new hampshire, michigan, ohio, all of those states we have covered. the nomination is wrapped up, and they still can't say we love you. they can't say the words. >> you know, casic, i would say in a vacuum it's like let the process play out, it's political. but it's not, politics doesn't exist in a vacuum. go back to jeb bush's endorsement of mitt romney. he did it in a -- >> you're giving me the assist here. >> let's watch here. here is his hands off approach mirroring what we have already seen. catch the words here. here is a refresher starting with florida senator marco rubio who wasn't exactly sputter wg

excitement when he endorsed the guy late last month. they are so -- i don't know what -- >> i am going to endorse rom any is not only because he's going to be the nominee but he offers such a stark contrast to the president's record. >> okay, i'm stuck with him and he isn't obama. and another governor gave a rather back handed endorsement, wait until you hear this, let's watch george. >> i think it's time to rally around the presumptive nominee. he is not a perfect candidate, it's hard for blue collar families to identify with him, it's hard for economic conservatives to identify, he needs to reach out to latinos, but he has to focus on that and defeating president obama as opposed to winning the next primary and the next state -- >> which group did he leave out?

you know -- >> chris, chris -- >> one more, here is jeb bush, he finally came out for romney, his statement wasn't brimming with enthusiasm. here is what jeb bush said. primary elections have been new england thirty-four states, and now is the time to unite and get behind romney. i am endorsing mitt romney for the parties nomination. he sounds like a prisoner of war. >> chris, and didn't do it -- did it in a statement and a tweet. no appearance with romney, nothing like that. you know. the one thing i would say about that, i haven't seen the full clip until now. we can rule out george as a potential vp for mitt romney, cross that off the list. one thing is important to remember here. this is not that dissimilar to '04 when john kerry had the head

but not the heart. they disliked bush so much and they thought he was the best nominee. i think that is a lot of the thinking now. and kerry didn't lose because the base wasn't excited, they were excited about betting bush. i think romney will benefit from that. the base will never be in love with mitt romney, but they dislike barack obama to the extent that it may not matter. >> you're making a heroic effort at bipartisan and being reasonable, but -- >> what's wrong -- >> it's true. it's true. >> i don't believe, you go back to 2004, you will find the number of top democrats so unhappy with the nomination they had before them. >> sure, they were just as unhappy as the top republicans are now. they talk about the folks that didn't get in in 2004. they talked about the folks not getting in 1992.

>> the reality of it is -- >> i have never seen a candidate that's more polenta. >> that's for you, chris, he is floating -- >> he is floating somebody's boat out there somewhere. >> the best guys? the capital people? who likes romney? >> chris likes him, right? >> i don't get into the liking and disliking, but you can make the argument, chris, that i agree with you, mitt romney is not the most dynamic charismatic guy in the world. you can make the argument that if what the republican party wants to do is say we tried charismatic, we tried great speaker, we tried transformational leader, and look what it's got us. romney puts all of the attention and spot light on obama. that is an argument that is plausibly made.

mitt romney is never going to rival barack obama in charisma, never. >> if that's the argument, turn the lights off of this at the convention and the election already. if you're going to try to run on charisma and charm, let's go boring and dull, that won't sell. >> it will sell. >> i think that what jeb bush said has to be the argument. let's talk about on the issues that we can transfer the administration, what romney brings as governor and in the business community. >> thank you michael steele and chris cillizza. mitt romney tries to be all things to all people. we know that. this weekend, mr. yes i agree with you was on saturday night live. this was brilliant. sat night live goes after his ability to say yes to everybody and anything.

♪ surf's up everybody get your boards and your wetsuits ♪ free-credit-score-dot-com's gonna direct you ♪ ♪ to check your credit score before it gets too late ♪ ♪ and you end up strapped for cash ♪ ♪ patching your board with duct tape ♪ ♪ so hit free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ find out what credit's about ♪ ♪ or else you could be headed for a credit wipeout ♪ offer applies with enrollment in freecreditscore.com™.

>> back to "hardball" now for the side show, first up, "saturday night live" went all the way with the charge that mitt romney will do or say anything to get votes. let's watched. >> governor romney stopped in dallas. >> in all honesty, i can't remember a time when dungeons and dragones wasn't important in my life. >> when people ask me, mitt, just how many piercing dos you have, i always say more than i need, but less than i want. >> governor romney appeared at a meeting of the united jewish

appeal. >> we don't believe you -- >> all right, okay. >> was it true? will he say anything? we got to november for him to say no more, i'm me. i'm waiting for that night. and we all know that george romney, mitt's father served as governor, but his grandmother ran for the senate. this clip was dug up of a 23-year-old mitt trying to win some votes for mom. >> sometimes senators become so caught up in the political situation, you could come up with a new bill and decide right down the line how everyone will vote mostly on their political background and which party they're for. but she's not so aligned to an ideology to a side that she can't analyze the situation and vote in it and work in it

completely and candidly. >> there you have it. he is a severe conservative right now, but his mother was closer to the center as he said as a 23-year-old. and today is called newt death watch day 26, that's how long since newt's big losses on super tuesday. is he copping around to romney having it won. >> i think you have to be realistic, given the size of his organization, the primaries he has won, he is far and away the most likely nominee. if he gets to 1144 delegates, i will support him and do everything i can to help him beat obama. we have had great experiences. some things work, some things don't work. >> pretty humble for him, sounds like he has quit, doesn't it. coming up next, the religious right wants to defeat obama, we know that, but for some, mitt romney's faith is a sticking

point. could evangelicals stay home in november? you're watching "hardball."

>> i think he has done a remarkable job. he resurrected a political career that was dormant, and as his friend i would say to him you ought to seriously consider leaving the race now, in eight years he will be three years younger than romney is now. >> welcome back, that was richard land talking about rick santorum, his wored carry weight because his president of the southern baptist convention. and rick santorum has gotten big support from that group of voters, but how will evangelicals react -- rick warren gave an indication that may worry the romney people, let's listen? >> are mormon's christians?

>> it's the historic doctrine of the church. that god is three in one, one god in father, son, and holy spirit. mormonism does not believe that. they'll use the same terminology, but they don't believe in the historic doctrine of the trinity. and people have tried to make it other issues, but that's really one of the fundamental differences. >> let's start by general agreement that we detest religion tests for public office in this country and they're uncushional. we have the author of "the party unfaithful." thank you both for joining us, this is a tricky question because we have no religious tests, and amy i always respect your writing, but this is something that we observe what

has to be done with this. what will romney do, what does he have to do, and what can he do facing the differences in religion. he is not exactly -- in the equation, what are your thoughts with how he will fit in this summer and into the fall? >> sure, chris. first of all, we should make sure that we're talking about conservative evangelicals here. liberals are still supportive, and a lot have not shown a problem supporting romney. but he does have a sticking point there with the most conservative evangelicals. and it goes far beyond the question of whether they think he is conservative enough. you know, there have been some fascinating numbers coming out of these primaries, and one of them the campaign has to be paying close attention to is

that among very conservative voters, those not evangelical are okay with romney. he has about 43% of those votes in the primaries. but among conservative, he is getting only about a fifth of those voters, and those are the people he will need on board. >> let me bring that up with david because there is a fact that i keep coming across in covering the primaries, he never seems to beat 28%. are they still going to vote against him in the primaries? i'm not being lewd chris, i just think in that community, the evangelicals of the right, they just don't want to vote for this guy. >> listen, i'm about a bubba watson drive away from that parkway here, and evangelicals are not a monolithic voting block. they're probably the most

biblicly literal religion. they will know the creeds of christianity, and it's the creeds that the mormon church rejects. and that's a problem for those trying to look down the road and say, okay, do i want a candidate that shares my faith? but at the same time we have to balance this out because he's not running against nobody. he is going to be running against president obama. as amy said, a third or so of evangelicals will vote for president obama. the question becomes for the evangelicals, for whom romney's mormonism is a problem, what do they do? do they stay home? vote for president obama? somebody who is a christian?

these are interesting questions and i don't think there is a clear answer right now. >> my understanding is that back when we had the decision by the supreme court says no more prayer or king james readings, that created the majority. that's when people became political. they depoliticalized themselves. will they not show up for presidential elections? evangelicals on the right? >> we don't have a sense of that yet. because just in these primaries we have seen overwhelming participation in evangelicals, they were 53% of primary voters so far. that's beyond the bush years and 2008. but it's not a sense of how galvanized they will be in november. they're not getting out to vote for mitt romney, they're not getting out as a show of protest for president obama. they have been involved in the primaries to try to find an

alternative. exactly, we had all of these weekend summits trying to come up with an alternative to romney. now they'll kind of reconcile themselves to the fact that he is going to be the nominee, but that doesn't tell us what the people in the pews are going to do. they may well stay home. >> i want you to watch -- i'm sorry, go ahead -- >> david. >> yeah, i think one thing we have to be careful about is 53% or so have been evangelicals. and it's been low turnout. those that turned out have supported rick santorum in that. but it's hard to draw conclusions. we're not talking about obama clinton turnout for 2008, we're talking about depressed turnout. it will be interesting what happens when governor romney is

running against president obama. and what the evangelicals do then. >> i want to get to this, this is how romney himself, who has been schooled in his problem if he has one, a long time. he knows what he is facing for these conservative evangelicals. last week when he was campaigning in wednesday, he was questioned about his faith. it's important the way his reaction to the question turned about and how careful he is. let's watch him and listen. >> i'm sorry, we're just not going to have a discussion about religion in my view, but if you have a question i'm happy to answer your question. >> my question is do you believe it's a sin for a white man to marry and procreate with a black woman. >> that was snippety. he said it's okay to have interracial marriages, but he didn't like the question, why not? david?

>> listen, it's -- you're getting now into this question that is a really interesting question about the test. clearly there is no religious test for a candidate running for office. anybody can run for office. the question becomes how much of an examination of that faith becomes a test? you know, to what degree are the views of the catholic church or the mormon church legitimate things for the american public to talk about? mitt romney is arguably one of the most religious men to ever run for office. he is one of the most generous men to any church in america. you know, the question becomes what does that look like? i have been in a horrible children's cancer ward, and there was one wheelchair there and it said jesus christ of latter day saints. >> they do a lot of good work. thank you amy and david, up next, "06 minute" reporter mike

wallace showed us about fearlessness. we're going to talk about him with his long time colleague. this is "hardball." >> we're coming back with lesley

>> we're coming back with lesley stahl.

he was doing what? with you? why? you demand special treatment. >> you needed money. >> it's almost an embarrassment to hear this from you. >> why are you so reluctant? >> wow, that was mike wallace, the famed "60 minutes" correspondent that passed away this weekend. he had incredible news making interviews week after week. with me right now is the equally great lesley stahl. who first met wallace back in

'72. the best reason to have you on is to have you on. but here we are, i don't think it's a side moment, but i have to ask the jack kennedy question, what was he like? >> interestingly he was exactly what you saw on the air in the office. he was feisty, he was tough, electric, high energy. he was playful, and you know he did pieces where you saw that. mike didn't just do the hard hitting interviews. i don't know how many of you remember his interview with ti in a turner. he was flirting with her, and he fell in love, and let you see that smitten. he upped our game, made us all better, and he insisted that we be tough ourselves. i love you starting off saying he was fear less.

i think that being timid and being mike wallace lived on different planets. >> how do you explain that? you're civil with people. at some point you'll have to jam them where they don't want to be jammed? >> he did it with ease. i remember he once had me in his office. he was giving me a lesson. he was wonderful to me by the way. he brought me to "60 minutes," and he helped me. the trick to a good interview is you ask the questions people want you to ask but don't think you will, and then when you ask it, you can't be embarrassed. you can't show you're uncomfortable asking it hi pressure. he said get over that. >> who was against you joining

"60 minutes." can you give me the names? >> this is a wonderful story. ed bradley came in and told me himself, he said you're going to find out any way. i'm the one that was against it. of all of them he was the one i was friendliest. he said he thought i was too washington. he said he didn't think i could cover all the different kinds of stories. >> he didn't know you like i've gotten to know you. you were tough. let's take a look at a memorable moment when mike wallace interviewed nancy reagan. let's watch. role? >> nothing. >> he was president of the united states. >> it was what -- i don't know enough about iran contra, mike

to talk to you intelligently about it. all i know is he did not think he had done anything wrong. he didn't know of anything going on. >> you're going to be in japan and i'm told it's a $2 million two weeks. >> they're getting two of us. they're working us like crazy. >> it's going to be a well recompensed two weeks. >> it is for everybody there. you really didn't need to ask that question. >> there she is getting nailed by her buddy. >> nothing stopped him from asking the heart of the question whatever it was, whether it was his friend. they were really close friends and had been from the time they were young. he went after his bosses. that tobacco story. he went right after the big

boss. one of the bravest things he did was come forward to the public and tell everybody he had depression. he did it when it was a stigma. he was one of the first public people to do that. he was an astonishing man. i mean it only in the most positive way. >> i say all those good things about you too. what a great figure he was for us. mike wallace, this weekend we lost him. thank you. we'd love to get you back. >> any time. let me finish with what the separation of church means and what it doesn't mean. i stepped on the machine, and it showed me the pressure points on my feet and exactly where i needed more support. then, i got my number. my tired, achy feet affected my whole life. until i found my number. i tried the free dr. scholl's foot mapping center. in two minutes, i got my foot map and custom number. i'm a 440.

that matched up to the dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic inserts with the right support and cushioning i need. i am a believer. i'm a believer! i'm a believer. go to drscholls.com to find your closest walmart with a foot mapping center.

let me finish with something we're talking about earlier tonight. i just got back from paris having spent three days walking the great bank with kathy. the city is as wonderful as ever even as woody allen noticed in the rain. back home i read the "new york times" about the role that our moral values play or should play in public life. he was talking about what jack kennedy said 50 years ago about the separation of church and state and what rick santorum said in the overthe to criticism of what kennedy said. he said he would have cheered about a person's right. he also said the separation of

church and state doesn't mean quote, a wall betweens ones faith and one's political decisions. i want to say something about that. we have civil rights because of leaders like dr. martin luther king who led the southern christian leadership campaign. it had a lot to do with funding jim crew and so did the value of judiasm. often if not always grounded in religious teaching. president kennedy said as much in his address in june of '63 in the midst of the fight to integrate the university of alabama when he called civil rights a moral issue as old as biblical issues. where to use the force of law to mandate a moral judgment. i've never heard anyone suggest we should write laws affecting dietary rules like not eating meat on friday during lent.

have you? even when he we argue about abortion, it's the rare zell that would punish the woman that makes the difficult choice to have an abortion. have you? why? because we know most of us even if we do not admit it openly the limit offense what a society, especially one like ours dedicated to individual freedom can do to enforce endeeply held moral commitmentcommitments. it can be a propelling force for good. we know how of it can be a deeply powerful divider. i agree with the cardinal in new york. let's not forget the role of faith base morality and how we treat each other. this trayvon martin case is a good example. do unto others as you would have them do unto you remains one of the great guides to human behavior. the best guide any of us will know.