that's what we need as a start, knowing who is funding these organizations. >> all right, krystal ball, with how we expose these things. thanks for being here, as always. that's it for us today. i'm in for the birthday-celebrating dylan ratigan. "hardball" starts right now. >> cliffhanger. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews. leading off tonight, who is going to win in november? we've got a brand new nbc news wall street journal poll just out tonight, the first since mitt romney effectively clinched the republican nomination. are they buying the fairness doctrine? here's one hint from our pollsterz about november, this

election is look ing a lot like the 2000 and 2004 cliffhangers. people thi mitt romney thinks obama is out of his head. mr. obama says mitt romney is out of touch. also the latest on the secret service scandal tonight including hot new details on just what happened. the world's most exclusive fraternity. right now there's only five members, the five living presidents of the united states. if you're running for senator of massachusetts, there is one organization -- hint hint -- you don't want to have on your side. the new york yankees, believe it or not, and fortunately for him, brad made the mistake of taking a check from them. political director and chief white house correspondent, and

msnbc political analyst. gentlemen, let's look at the numbers. let's take a look at how mitt romney and barack obama match-up in terms of favorability in that new poll in west virginia. people positive about the president at 48, positive about mitt romney 33. negative feelings, obama edged out 39 to 36 on that one. >> part of it is almost all improvement among young voting groups. when you look at it, we know all the ballot matchups, obama's favorite rating is pretty much close to where he is in all these ballot matchups. he's sitting somewhere between 47 and 57% in these polls. romney is basically having to overperform. he's still sort of the

republican vessel, if you will. he's not yet mitt romney. >> but it's an opportunity for him, for romney, if he can take it because he has a lot of upside room that he can grow there. >> look at him pick at his tie there. >> his negatives almost equal the president's negatives. but there's some numbers missing there if he possibly can. he's ran a tough primary and the way he ran the race in the primary accentuated his negatives because he was just as bad as everyone else. >> people who call themselves republicans really don't like the guy. they think he's stiff, they think he's cunning. >> the one thing they got out of it, the one positive, this focus group, and our senior political editor was at that one, too, the

one thing that got to these folks was, he's a businessman, he's a businessman. but he filled in nothing. >> within those who like president obama, there is a very strong intensity among some of the people, like 30% of the country really is gung ho for the guy, they can't wait to vote for him again. some of them may be minorities, some of them may be liberals, but the gung ho nature, nothing like that for romney. only 10% are really gung ho. they can't wait to get to the voting booth to vote for mitt romney. is that, in effect, who shows up? >> yes, and i don't think that changes. what that shows is mitt romney's entire campaign is based on the idea that president obama failed, and that he is, for the most part, the convenient instrument to retire barack obama. and he's a businessman. that's basically it. >> so he's not selling mitt romney. >> not yet. but i think he has to. because he's got to improve his likeability number, he's got to improve his positive number in

some way. i don't think he can win it just based on antipathy. >> did you hear that? >> let's look at the last three sitting presidents to lose to h.w. bush, jimmy carter and gerald ford all had one thing in common, their own political bases we weren't fired up. they were all unhappy with them. i think obama's secret weapon here is that the base is still fired up about him. and you can't look back in history and see that a sitting president with a fired-up political base getting thrown out. it hasn't happened in the modern era. >> all the more reason why mitt romney has to have a better rationale. >> let's get to these numbers. the nbc poll had to answer to candidates about why they made certain statements to the economy.

76% said it would make them more likely to vote for a candidate along the lines of what president obama is saying, that he would be willing to fight for fairness for the middle class. and 71% said everyone is better off when everyone plays their fair share and lives by the same rules. 64% said they want to replace opportunity and small government. free enterprise over government programs. that also scores well. but not as well as i said. and free enterprise programs don't generally do as well. what isn't selling so well is this argument about the rich, the very rich. >> fairness sells well. just so you know, we used exact quotes from the president and mitt romney during their speeches to the associated press editors luncheon. they really did frame their arguments and that's where we grab the phrases from.

that tests well. but when you turn it into where it sounds like class warfare -- >> that doesn't work. >> i can tell you i've talked to some democrats today who said, i wish he wouldn't go there. there is a line here that he went too far. >> by the way, frank rose was born with a big silver spoon in his mouth. barack obama is the first afterno african-american president. is there going to be a reluctance to talk about dumping the first african-american president? wait a minute here, this guy is going to knock out the first guy who came aboard? >> my guess is it's a wash. some voters may be reluctant for that reason, on the other hand, there will be some voters grading him on a tougher scale. >> because he is black.

>> i had a republican candidate -- a republican who thought about running for president and decided not to. one of the things he said was, i'm not going to be that guy. >> president obama leads it in all but two polls. the average of the latest poll says obama by 2.5 points. what do you make of these polls? do they tell us something or do they take away from the truth of each of them? do they all give us a general message if you add them up? >> just wait for the nbc eternal polls. we're seeing where it all is. the president has a slight advantage. romney has some work to do. it looks like we're heading to 2004 because all the numbers say that. they have the wrong electorate

out there. with registered voters, you don't know what a voter sample looks like six months out. >> you can do all adults, you can do registered voters, which is helpful, but the best poll is likely voters. >> not now, because you have people who are going to vote who won't necessarily say they're ready to vote. they're not paying attention. >> cwhen can we get a look at likely voters? >> labor day. >> traditionally you switch over to likely voters after labor day. >> some people believe you get a good look at the economy between now and june and that's when you really decide the election on economic bread and butter. are we getting close to that? >> the earlier numbers in this poll about whether the fairness message is registering or the freedom messages registering for mitt romney are interesting but somewhat beyond the point. this is about who is going to

make the economy better? that's going to be a referendum in part on how well the president has done and also how credible mitt romney is as a person who would be a good economic steward. those are the key numbers, and a lot of people decide, people think faster and react faster. but there's a lot of evidence to show that this spring, the second quarter -- >> let's take a look at the numbers in the economy. asked whether the economy will improve in the next 12 months, 38% said it would. 1 out of 5 said it would get worse and another 5 said, same as it's been. asked if president obama would hurt or help the economy, 31% said it would help, 38% said it would hurt. >> there are also numbers in other polls that if you can pick through to look at that

specifically, i think that number is problematic for the president, but it certainly doesn't show it's a slam dunk for mitt romney, either, even though he's a businessman because he got so off on other topics for the primary season. >> why is obama talking about fairne -- why is romney talking about women, talking about the economy. does he not want to run honestly? >> he's picking apart the problems. >> it improved for a short period of time and then it precipitously ran downhill. >> the tea party brought him up and the tea party dragged him down. >> mark murray makes this argument to me all the time. can we say the tea party is dead if mitt romney is the nominee because you can't get more tea

party than mitt romney. >> they're like a booster rocket. >> i would say that mitt romney is high tea. thank you, chuck todd, and thank you, howard fine man. i'll give you all the numbers, including who is leading right now in the smad chop. president obama says romney is out of touch. we'll have our strategists tell which one is most likely to win. this is "hardball." [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition? ♪ [ gong ] strawberry banana! [ male announcer ] for a smoothie with real fruit plus veggie nutrition new v8 v-fusion smoothie. could've had a v8.

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this is going to be great. welcome back to "laddhardball" effectively clinching the nomination. for mitt romney it's not about disputing the president's likeability but proving he's not up to the job. he said last night, quote, the president is a nice guy but we just can't afford him for four more years. isn't that sweet? for barack obama, it's painting mitt romney as being born way silver spoon in his mouth, out of touch with his wealth and success and lack of hardship. our "hardball" strategists are here to review the arguments, steve mcmann and todd harris. likeability is a nice thing. here's romney right now, north carolina, just yesterday making the case against reelecting the president. let's watch. >> even if you like barack obama, we can't afford barack obama.

it's time to get someone that will get this economy going and put the american people back to work. we're entrusting people. we're a hopeful people. but we're not dumb. and we're not going to fall from the same lines from the same person just because it's in a different place. >> i somehow think he's being well scripted right now. >> he is being well scripted because he's trying to separate the fact that people like the president, thad liey would like president to succeed and they're making a decision over the president and a guy they don't like very much. >> can they concede that? >> they can mute it a little bit, but the converse of the argument is you may not like me very much, but if you care about the economy you need to elect a business guy from wall street. i don't quite get it. >> okay, he's more likeable, but let's talk about something else. >> you can mitigate it because as long as people feel like they themselves, yeah, the economy may be improving, but if i'm not feeling it myself, whether you like the president on a personal

level or not, think he's a good guy, good husband or not, if you don't think he's up to the task of turning the economy around, then it doesn't matter. in the fact that in the same polls that showed this race basically tied that romney's fave-unfav is e numbers are so bad -- >> the mongoose is out there that just snipes at him constanting and they'll say terrible things about the president, and then he says, oh, he's a nice guy. will that be believable when he says that? >> every time lawrence o'donnell comes on this network, how do you contend with that? >> every time he says it's this, it's not that, it may be the economy is improving but is it improving for you? todd is actually a better strategist than the romney campaign. >> president obama was out

there, and it's like ohio examine florida all the time. takes this shot at romney perhaps telegraphing his line of attack for the whole campaign. big question whether this worked or not. >> somebody gave me an education. i wasn't born way silver spoon in my mouth. michelle wasn't. but somebody gave us a chance. >> okay, these are scholarship kids, both he and his wife, and his brother was a scholarship at princeton. okay. is that something you brag about or something you be careful about when the other guy got education paid for by his parents, prep school and everything else? >> it reeks of the thing that chuck todd and others were warning against. anne richards tried this in 1988 against former president bush. >> isn't it fair to say that some of these guys with old money act like they hit a tr

triple? don't they act like, it's our turn? >> probably not the language i would use. >> that means i'm entitled. let's get that other sound bite. >> start packing. that's what i'd like to say. obviously we have a very different view. the president, i'm sure, wants another four years. but the first years didn't go so well. >> you know, i got to know michelle. she's a lovely person. i've never barack obama, but i believe it's mitt's time. i believe that the country needs the kind of leadership that he is going to be able to offer, and i believe he is the person that can turn around this economy. so i think it is -- it's our turn now. >> what is this, goonies, it's our time? remember the movie "the

goonies"? it sounds like you're waiting for the trust to come around. >> whoever's turn it is get to go next. unfortunately for the romneys, that's not the way america works and that's not the way democracy works. can i make one point about the president? everyone assumed he's talking about mitt romney. he could have been talking about anybody -- >> oh, please. >> he didn't mention mitt romney. >> can i have a response for you on that? i just gave it. >> he didn't mention mitt romney. it's a rhetorical trick to talk about the have and have-nots in society. it may be mitt romney. it could be just about anybody. he's talking about opportunity. >> we know exactly what he meant. he meant the other guy with the silver spoon in his mouth. >> any hypothetical, wealthy, mormon, former governor of massachusetts? >> just because the shoe fits doesn't mean you have to wear it, but the shoe does fit.

>> he says something here that really bugs me. let's watch romney here on "fox and friends." >> i'm surely not going to apologize for my dad and his success in life. he was born poor, he worked his way to become very successful despite the fact that he didn't have a college degree. i know the president likes to attack fellow americans. he's always looking for a scapegoat, particularly those that have been successful like my dad. i'm not going to rise to that. this is a time for us to solve problems. this is not a time for us to be attacking people, we should be attacking problems. >> here's the problem i have. this isn't just political diddly stuff we're talking about. here's a serious assault. i know the president likes to attack fellow americans. what does that mean? nobody -- >> i give him credit for being born in america now. right? >> is that unpatriotic to attack fellow americans? >> what it means that the president's rhetoric where he

says to voters, the reason you're not doing better is because these people over here are doing too well. it's this kind of mentality -- >> being villainized as not an american, as some guy snuck in the country? he's a fellow american. republicans have been attacking this guy personally and viciously for years now. and then he says, well, he attacks walmart. wh what does your crowd do? >> he's an american. >> what does it mean to say, i know the president likes to attack, not that he's pugnacious like i am, but he likes to attack fellow americans. what does that mean? >> it's very obvious what he's trying to do. this is going to be a campaign that divides america from mitt romney. he's trying to make a polarized america and make it a polarized race. he figures he's got a coin's toss chance of winning it. the problem is he's also got a

record he has to defend and is they're even more exquisite. >> he sdoes the same thing. i'm america's candidate for president. >> those people are doing too well. >> everybody should have the same opportunity. it's the message of america. >> what's the strongest argument, he's in over his head, your guys' charge, or that he's out of touch with people's needs. what's a better one? >> against the president? neither one. the better argument is the economy hasn't recovered as quickly as we hoped or he said, and therefore, we need to try something new. that's not a winning argument but it's the best argument they have. >> actually, it is a winning argument. he didn't do what he said he was going to do -- >> did you just hit him? >> i did. >> that's a romney dish. we don't do that here. no physical touching.

>> do you want four more years of exactly what we just had but now on steroids, or do we need to change directions? >> on steroids? >> yeah. because we're going to go even faster. >> oh, he's a drug user, too. >> a foreign born drug user. up next, mitt romney's latest foot in mouth, or rather, cookie in mouth moment, manages to offend a small pennsylvania town's business. you're watching "hardball."

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he is -- at fenway. but has brown crossed over to the dark side to the hated new york yankees? apparently. the yankees president larry levine has shelled out money to the brown senator campaign. it doesn't give the incumbent a free pass for accepting it, either. that's right, the commander of evil empires having to pay for championing his support of the red sox. it's one thing to be bipartisan senator, but this is taking it a little too far. there is no compromising in baseball. and now the yankees are playing for scott brown's team. a statement from brown's spokesman says the candidate views the contribution as, quote, their way of paying us back for babe ruth. well. also, how did mitt romney get on the wrong side of a small bakery in pittsburgh and a 7-eleven chain all in the same sentence? find out what happened when romney was at a picnic this

tuesday. >> i don't know about these cookies. they don't taste like you made them. no, no, they came from the local 7-ler hif 7-eleven, bakery or whatever. >> the cookies in question were a very special addition from bethel bakery. the comments did not sit well with the owner who said this, we wanted him to be welcome with the best in the burg. this guy has no ideas how loved the institution is that supplied those cookies. romney left his mark on that town. the special in the bakery was called the cookieburg. from '78 to '81, house democrats are communists. really, communists? he was asked to get specific in

an interview with cnn's soledad o'brien this morning. >> no, no, we do. which are the members of congress that are -- >> you can go to -- >> keith ellison is a communist? >> soledad, i'm calling it this. communists, congressionalist, statist which is another term used. i'm looging at the idealogies, i'm looking at things they believe in. a lot of people need to study that and see what it is. >> this guy was either a no-show in history class or a demigod. what really happened that night at the hotel. we're going to talk to the reporter who interviewed the escort -- that's her title -- at the hotel. you're watching "hardball."

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i'm hampton pierson with your cnbc market rap. the dow closes below 13,000, losing 68 points, the nasdaq loses 24. bank of america, morgan stanley reported better than expected earnings earlier but existing home savings dropped in march and job claims fell from 2,000 to 386,000. shares were sent higher in after-hours trading. that's cnbc first worldwide, now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." new details are emerging from

cardegena who tells her story about what transpired that night, a night that has so far cost three people their jobs. thank you for joining us, and let's start with kristin here. let's make the point, what do we know about the latest developments from cardagena. >> you mentioned those three people ousted from the secret service, essentially. two supervisors, one non-supervisor. so that happened, and we should say right off the top we're expecting more people to leave potentially by the end of the week. in terms of what's happening in cardahega, investigators are moving quickly to unravel what happened there. they've interviewed the housekeepers, the staff at that hotel where this alleged incident happened, and now their big challenge is to find those women, those alleged prostitutes

who are involved in this entire incident. we should say in terms of their investigation, they didn't find any drugs and they didn't find any evidence at this point in time that security was compromised. having said that, it is so crucial for them to get in touch with those women to try to figure out exactly what they know, were they able to confiscate any type of sensitive information or papers. but as of right now, lawmakers on the hill who have been briefed on the investigation do not believe that there was any breach of security, chris. >> david, tell me what you can about the events that night. are we able to get a clear picture of what happened, how these men, all of our men, managed to find themselves in the company of sex workers that night? >> yes. what we've reported so far, chris, is that this night started as a party with heavy drinking. they've all reported on visits to a strip club, including one called the play club which is a typical kind of strip club, except prostitution is legal and regulated, so from what we understand, the men involved in this brought at least two of the women from the play club out of

the club. i think you pay a fee for that. and then they took them back to the room, and overall, 21 women are expected of checking into the hotel, the hotel caribe where the president's advanced staff was staying. they had to check their i.d.s to prove they were not under age because of women being taken advantage of. in the morning, that's when the hotel got suspicious and events escalated when there was a dispute over payment. >> let me get back to kristen over the political impacts in washington. i get the feeling this is turning partisan, isn't it? >> it is to some extent. lawmakers on the hill today expressing their outrage. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, nancy be pelosi calling s disgusting, harry reid saying it is intolerable. but i think what stuck out was jeff sessions who actually

questioned the president's ability to manage his own administration in the wake of this. and i can tell you i sat in the daily briefing today, almost all of the questions were about this scandal. white house press secretary jay carney addressed what sessions said directly and said that's pure politics. he's just turning this into a political incident and that's not what this is. and i should also say, chris, that the white house continues to stand by director mark sullivan. but what's so problematic about this for the white house is that it has almost overshadowed the message that the president is trying to get out in terms of the economy, in terms of energy, and, of course, we are heading into the thick of the election year. so the timing of this is not ideal, certainly, for the white house. >> and that's true of the event itself. i was down there moderating and discussing among three presidents, including the president of the united states, and it was all about the great economic hopes for the latin american, how it's going to help us here. and that part of the message, what we can do for this hemisphere, which is so much

more important, you can argue this kind of mess, yet it's not as exciting, i suppose, to talk about. david, did it all come down to the fact that this might have gone unnoticed, all this talk about, i'm outraged, out of casablanca, i can't believe this is going on, all this outrage would not have occurred if the one guy had paid the prostitute? that one incident at 7:00 in the morning? >> i think there was more than one incident in terms of misbehavior and misconduct. we've seen three people already dismissed. i think the key, yes, it may have started because one guy didn't want to pay and it certainly escalated. we understand that colombia authorities were very upset as they reported it to the americans and then it got to the diplomats. was there culture, was there knowledge of it? we know the two senior managers were pretty high level. they're both based here in d.c., they have 20 years experience,

roughly, in the agency, which suggests, did this happen before? if so, did people know about it? why were two senior managers partying with the younger guys and the guys they were there to supervise. >> did anybody organize the evening and say, we're going to collect a couple hundred bucks apiece, you're all going to get company for the night, and i'll supervise to make sure there's transportation taken care of, or was each one of these guys, maybe they drank too much -- i can see the scene, 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning going to a strip show and getting involved with them. was it all spontaneous, like it sounded good at the time, or was there an orchestrated aspect from someone who put it all together? >> i get a sense there was a night out, and that was clear. this was a couple days before the president arrived. what we understand is these guys didn't have a whole lot of assignments at that point, they had some free time and there was no curfew on these guys. it's not clear if they picked the women all up at one place or different groups.

that's what some of the investigators are trying to get to the bottom of and i think there's conflicting stories going on. >> so we don't know if it's an organized evening, let's have sex workers involved with women tonight. >> there's no reporting of that, and possibly the women came from different clubs. not to say there wasn't some sort of communication haed aheam the men going out, but we know the taxi drivers get some sort of royalties suggesting to foreigners to go to these clubs with money to be made, or was it premedicatate premeditated? it's hard to say. >> we'll find out in the days ahead. it's great having your reporting, and glad to meet you. up next, just five living members of the president of the united states. it's called the presidents' club. they actually get together. it's interesting how they do interact and we're going to get this story. what are they like when they get

together, and what do they think of each other? do they help each other, do they like each other? these are all guys retired from politics, more or less. this is "hardball." i'm freaking out man. why? i thought jill was your soul mate. no, no it's her dad. the general's your soul mate? dude what? no, no, no. he's, he's on my back about providing for his little girl. hey don't worry. e-trade's got a totally new investing dashboard. everything is on one page, your investments, quotes, research... it's like the buffet last night. whatever helps you understand man. i'm watching you. oh yeah? well i'm watching you, watching him.

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42. the electoral votes could be critical. we know that, and we'll be right back.

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let's start off with the relationship between george sr. let's take a look here. they were all welcomed to the winners' circle in january of 2009, outgoing president bush offered a few words of support. let's watch these guys together. >> whether we're democrat or republican, we care deeply about this country, and to the extent we can, we look forward to sharing our experiences with you. all of us who have served understand that the office itself transcends the individual. >> i wish we had a wide shot but there they are, all these guys together. his father was there, of course. here's the wide shot with bill clinton and both bushes president. >> and all these guys now have a relationship with bush sr. one is his son, one is his adopted son. barack obama never really knew

his father. he advises all of them, he's friends with one of them, he's father to one of them. the club is a really interesting place because of the role the old man plays. >> and there's jimmy carter. he's not clubbable, is he? >> he unites the club. he gives them something to talk about. >> let's take a look at the relationship. it was so close that one of george bush sr.'s sons called him a brother from another mother. here's bill, what he had to say about his rapport that he's established with bush sr. is almost a daddy figure. let's watch. >> it got so ridiculous, our odd couple partnership, that barbara began to refer to me as her black sheep son, you know, the one that strays, there's one in every family, gets the politics wrong or makes some other mistake. >> it's good for clinton to have this relationship. it softens him a little bit. they have all been through the experience of this impossible job. they all come out with deep

scars and really, no one else can understand what it's like to have done it, so despite their dirc differences across age -- >> but bill clinton knocked bush out of the job. they got over get over that, and he did it when he own son was president. it helped the family plan, and clinton and bush junior -- >> let's look at jack kennedy getting advice from eisenhower. kennedy called dwight eisenhower, and here is their phone conversation on the morning kennedy was about to announce a quarantine of cuba. >> what about if the soviet union announced tomorrow, which i think he will, that if we attack cuba, it will be nuclear war. what's your thinking of the

chances they will fire these things off? >> i don't think they will. >> you don't? >> no. >> imagine hour reassuring that is. >> but he is wrong. >> but he said he intended to fire on new york, and they had two left and they were going to try and kill millions in new york. >> but it's what kennedy needed to hear in the life and death of his presidency. let's talk about president obama. this coming election seems to be based -- a close election. >> he will have to count on clinton to do fundraisers for him. they haven't always gotten along, who will save liberalism, but at election time, clinton will do whatever, probably 40 to

50 events for clinton. >> and now if hillary clinton wants to run for president, who knows, if she runs, she's better off if obama gets reelected. >> and better off if her husband helps him get reelected. here he is giving the united states credit for the way he took care of osama bin laden and risked his legacy. >> he took the harder and the more honorable path. when i saw what had happened, i thought to myself, i hope that's the call i would have made. >> he is so good -- >> the music -- >> no, the voice, he does that deep croak, and it's so authentic >> and he confers on obama and the president's club seal of approval, that's an obama video.

he will be doing that over and over as we go into the fall. >> tell me the bottom line for the president's club. you can buy this book, it's a fat book. it's amazing because it's candy for people that like shows like this. >> it's shows that these men have relationships among them that go back, in some cases, decades and they're more complicated and interesting than you would have thought. >> it's the way that heavyweight boxers like each other. after wards, you find out their really close friends. >> that's exactly what this is. it's competition but also consolation and also partnership. they help each other off stage all the time. >> what's your favorite story you dug up? >> when clinton goes to see reagan after he's inaugurated,

and he teaches him how to salute. a slow up, and a fast down. >> the book is called "the president's club" if you love this, you're going to love this. when we return, let me finish with the stories. i'm quite taken with these, you're watching "hardball." zap technology. arrival. with hertz gold plus rewards, you skip the counters, the lines, and the paperwork. zap. it's our fastest and easiest way to get you into your car.

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>> let me finish with this, i love the stories how the former presidents get to be so close, especially bill clinton getting to be like a son to the senior president bush. now bill is out there speaking openly about how he feels towards the older man. i get it for personal reasons. bill clinton lost his father early on in a car crash. then he had a stepfather that beat up his mother, where young bill had to stand up and threaten that guy. he said he would beat him up if he touched his mother again. it's not hard hard to understand how bill feels towards bush senior. grown up bill clinton sees him has a father that he never had. and reagan wanted to be a mentor

to clinton as well. nixon wanted to use the young democratic president to bring him back to life. i think about how truman brought back hoover in the '40s. there was also something there that was human, nixon had two great daughters, but not a son, maybe clinton was the star he imagined having for a son, and maybe bill clinton saw in nixon a guy that was not as judgmental as so many public figures come across as. the thing is, i love to see they can get along after all of the games of day-to-day politics are over. wouldn't it be great if they could show the same humanity when they were playing the game. showing the country their human de