things they do. we're going to agree to. thanks for sharing, as always. that does it for us. i'm matt miller. dylan ratigan is back on monday. up next, "hardball" starts right now. >> good for bail. let's start "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews. washington leading off tonight, george zimmerman on the stand. it's a well known principle that lawyers don't let their clients testify. but this was covered by all three cable networks, and george zimmerman took the stand and told the parents of trayvon martin that he is sorry for their loss, he did not know how

old trayvon was and he thought he was slightly younger than himself. well, the judge set bail at $11p00. also on trial, some critics argue, is part of the stand your ground law itself. florida led the nation in implementing the law, ask now the governor has made a task force to look into stand your ground. plus, despite polls showing the presidential race essentially even, republicans are increasingly discouraged about mitt romney's prospects. and democrats have a plan to make them more discouraged. and how did talk of sarah palin get tied into the secret service investigation? we'll get into that one. finally, let me finish tonight with the teeny number that will determine whether obama or romney gets elected this year. we begin with george zimmerman's day in court today was it was

still high. i'm not a lawyer. i listen to those who are. here's george zimmerman speaking to the let's watch. >> i wanted to say i am sorry for the loss of your son. i did not know how old he was. i thought he was a little bit younger than i am, and i did not know if he was armed or not. >> that is something the defendant in this case said he wanted to do earlier but there he did it in court today. what do you make of it? >> what's interesting, chris, is the father of trayvon martin found thatç disingenuous. george zimmerman has had the opportunity to address the family before. he started a web site a couple weeks ago where no words of c contrition were uttered. when i spoke with the attorneys

of the martin parents, they simply thought this was a performance for the cam reracam. >> what i understand his statement was he was told by council again, we only heard -- >> was that true? >> we know he had no contact with george zimmerman. >> would it be normal for an attorney to tell a potential defendant in this case not to contact the victim? >> of course, it would be. it would not be uncommon to put fun an on the stand because it creates the risk when you expose your client to cross examination. now, the judge kept a very short rein on the prosecutor, so it didn't blow up in the defense's

face, but it was an unnecessary risk and it certainly doesn't seem to have accomplished fog. i'm lz surprised by things that happen in court. is it normal for a prosecutor in the jailç haing. is that normal parlance in the courtroom? >> well, if he can get away with it. it surprised me he didn't object. he said, yeah, when you were committing that crime -- i thought it would make an objection out of somebody. end of day tomorrow, george zimmerman blackberry ocalled hid criminal, bakesically.

>> he also challenged him to the crime. i think the prosecution did all they could to cross kexamine hi. >> he said, you are a criminal. you performed a crime that day. he just said it. >> the idea of the presumption is that he is a criminal. so it's not shocking that they would present the case that way, because the defense was trying to mitigate at every turn what was in that proffer from prosecutors. they were trying to say the confrontation was confidentie a loaded term? >> absolutely, but it's also what, so each wants to present that evidence in their best light. >> here is zimmerman denying he's been giving conflicting accounts. here'áz-immerman again on the

stand. >> and isn't it true that in some of those statements when you were confronted about your inconsistencies, you started saying, i don't remember. >> outside the scope of direct examination. i would object, your honor. >> we'll give it a lgt bit of weight but not a whole locality? >> isn't it true when when you were questioned and. >> would you agree that you changed your story as it went along? >> let me ask you this question. is this a normal thing with a bond hearing that you try to establish the credibility of a witness -- credibility of a defendant, i guess. >> what the prosecutor was doing was trying to take that little bit of an opening he had and be as aggressive as he could with george zimmerman. by the way, he was also aggressive in terms of.

if anyone thinks that he would be fully displayed today is making the wrong takeaway at this hearing. >> i think that's true. i think the prosecutor even said at the end of his presentation, look, we've got a lot more. >> remember, there could be a second hearing, and they don't  -- >> this is. let's listen to his case, his testimony, at least right today. >> what did it look like when you saw it the day after? >> well, his face was swollen quite a bit. he had a protective cover over his nose, his lip was swollen

and cut, and there were two vertical gashes on the back of his head. >> do you take any pictures of that? >> i did not take any pictures. >> have you seen any of them? >> yes, i have. >> who showed them to you? >> i saw one on the news today. has anybody else shown you these pictures? >> no, they did not. >> we got those from abc news. let's take a look at those pictures. i guess there is that gash there, two vertical gashes on the back of his head. i don't know how to read injuries. joann, your thought about this evidence now that it a's all ov the country now. my first question was, when was that taken? because george zimmerman within minutes of this shooting was confronted by police officer.

i spoke. if a neighbor walked onto this crime seen after the shooting but before zimmerman was treated, remember, he was treated in the back of a patrol car, four cuts andç bleeding. when did the non-members get to take a picture of the back of his head. it they take him at the soon. if people not directly involved until an ar was dead to investigating lel vant to his guilt or innocence or whatever happened that night. >> i think it goes to the way sanford not by tla von martin's

family, but the people i know in law enforcement who said, was this checked or did he not do a thorough investigation? >> to me personally, watching this, again, with the presumption of, the way he was that night, and if he. can they question the state investigate or as to who started the fight between zimmerman and snz no. >> do you have any reports. let me go to mr. coffeeç or kendall. he need to begin because he was

patrolling this, and he was suspicious of him and they confronted each other at some point. does it matter in the law of self defense who throws the first punch? does it matter? >> it certainly can, and that's why i was, frankly, surprised by the gap in that part of the testimony. but certainly the state is going to get to work on fixing that, because if, in fact, it develops that trayvon martin started the fight or that the state can't prove who started the fight, and i'm not saying by any means that he did, that's a problem. it certainly helps george zimmerman with his self-defense. but we are very early on in this case. again, we have to emphasize, the -- that was being said a moment ago, that that he have got to learn to lirch to this so they don't throw the case out

and that would be more interesting than anything we heard today. >> here's one more message in bernie de larionda. >> you haven't heard all of the evidence. please wait until the trial! thank you very much. >> i think everybody is going to be watching this with all kinds of attitude, right? >> yes,ç and chris, this case s already been reiterated on blogs, everywhere, and keep can't raise it nermz of jill selection. can zim bher man get a fair trial? i think those are all important questions. >> if we could all watch a picture, a tape, of everything that happened that night from the beginning or the end, i think woold this case. there's so many different

perspectives every since the flame doesn't -- coming up, florida led the country with its stand your ground law. it maybe at the heart of this case, we don't know. after trayvon martin's death, could it be the first in the country to repeal that law? this is "hardball." hmmm. for half the calories plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. not in this economy. we also have zero free time,

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i want to make sure we do not rush to conclusion about the stand your ground law or any other laws in our state. we look forward toç hearing an update about their concerns and a recommendation about keeping our state safe. >> that was somewhat famous florida governor rick scott. he's slated to review the florida stand your ground law following the death of trayvon martin. while the 17-member task force is headed by republican lieutenant governor jennifer carroll, an nra member who voted to pass the stand your ground law while serving the state legislature back in 2005. she also voted in fare of tvor take your guns to work law. wow. what is going on? florida state senator who voted

to pass the stand your ground law in 2005, and the former florida supreme court justice. i don't know what hedge you guys live in, guys, this pro gun thing, i don't get it, i don't get it, i don't get it. sometimes i think you all want to go back to the long branch saloon with marshall dillon and trying to -- i have to start with something really basic. stand your ground, okay, i guess i hear the arguments if you're out in the streets somewhere and someone is trying to kill you, u the right to defend yourself. fine. but what is this gun play for, senator? you got 900,000 people in florida with concealed weapons licenses, almost a million people walking around in florida today. you go to a movie theatre, you got 20 guns in the movie theatre with you. what's that çabout? >> the law is a result of the looting after the hurricanes in florida, and they wanted to --

>> give me a break. looting after the hurricane. in other words, you put a sunset law that only lasted through the hurricane. >> no, no, it's a good policy. i think what we tried to do is protect the home, because a person has the right to defend themselves in their own home. >> i think you're in the bs land here when you say defend your home. the right to carry a concealed weapon is not the right to have a shotgun upstairs in a closet. it's the right to walk the streets, probably proudly, with a gun in their pocket. why? >> this is america and the constitution allows you to bear arms. >> no, your law allows you to carry a concealed weapon. >> that's true, just like other states in the united states of america allows concealed weapons, too. >> i think you guys are flipped out. are you one of these guys that thinks everybody should walk into a restaurant armed? >> no. not at all.

>> some people won't go to certain hotels unless they allow them in for a gun. unless they pack, they won't let them in to have a meal. this is long branch stuff. i grew up watching matt dillon, but thank god i didn't live in that town. >> i'm on the task force the governor appointed because my experience of the general law in using justifiable law in defending yourself, and that's what you call the standç your ground law is about. it's not about guns, it's about what circumstances are you allowed to use deadly force or whatever else. >> you said it wasn't about guns. in the trayvon martin case, i

don't know what would have happened. >> what if he had a sword, what if he had another knife? he could have used deadly force in an appropriate or inappropriate way. the twask of the law was to -- tlou the issue of the right to bare arms because when and the presumptions and the unity and everything given. this is is a review of the law are resorting so. i will be going across the state of florida, which is my intent and redraft the law or.

this is an. >> absolutely, andç i think it being abused throughout the nation. >> give me an example of your life. >> in sanford, florida with trayvon martin and george zimmerman. >> let's not litigate that case here. that case is going to trial. find another case. you're a state senator. you must know other incidents where it's been abused. >> there was a case in jacksonville where a person was walking down the street and he utilized -- he ended up killing the person, he utilized his stand your ground defense and he won. >> let me ask you about that, judge. here's the question i have. everybody knows in this country, especially, in tough neighborhoods, you're going to have street fights, people in ballrooms, especially 2 or 3 in the morning, it seems like all hrk ell break loose. he said, this guy has a knife, or this guy threatened me? is that what we're talking

about, where the saying he threatened me, and there's no way to. it's the granting of immunity of several actions and the granting of presumptions that you're fearful -- it's primarily in your home or car. and the gentleman in the car anç unity applied. >> why would he be able to shoot somebody in self-defense if the other guy was no longer a threat? >> there was a presumption that he was in fear, and there was a presumption that the something

wasn't limited to immunity. i think this is a great task force. there are people from a broad racial background, geographical background, interests from different communities, and i think it's a great opportunity. a tragedy occurred in trayvon martin, and we can be destructive with our vices or we can make an effort, and bring balance where necessary. . and state senator gary ciplyn. i'm sure we'll be talking about this. governor christie says he never falls a week during the spring theme concert. he took up that allegation as only he can. you're watching "hardball"

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now for the side show. yesterday i talked about massachusetts voters' latest beef with senator scott brown but he accepted a sizeable contribution from the president of the new york yankees. today scott brown joined the team as a part of the 100th birthday celebration and they didn't lose sight of the yankee empire.ç >> you had scott brown here. >> just playing around. was just having fun. i want to announce to the crowd, that's fun. >> well, the progressive superpac american bridge is also reminding voters that brown has a rocky history with the sox.

back in 2001, he supported a plan to move the sox out of fenway to foxborough, massachusetts where the patriots play. >> i know lots of things have changed over the years, but not fenway park. there's been a lot of talk over the years about replacing the park, but that would have been a mistake. >> perhaps not so surprisingly, brown forgets to remind listeners he once wrote a letter asking the red sox to move their team to foxborough. >> scott brown asked that the team move to the football stadium in foxborough. >> the things they fight about out there. last week the new york post reported that the new jersey governor chris christie had been spotted dozing off at a bruce springsteen concert in madison square garden. the sighting was a hot topic in a press conference yesterday. >> what happened, during "rocky

ground," which was kind of a spiritual song, i closed my eyes and listened to the song. when i was çcontorting myself,o one took pictures of that. i have never fallen asleep during a bruce springsteen show. i will never fall asleep during a bruce springsteen show. >> i guess he's been to more than 120 springsteen concerts and have been lobbying the boss to play in the casino in atlantic city. they're concerned that mitt romney can't win this election, and the obama campaign wants to make sure they're right by making romney pay for all his right wing campaign moves. no, sorry, sir. we don't. oh, well, that's too bad.

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i'm hampton pierson with your cnbc market wrap. the dow closes at 65 points, the s&p is up 1 and some change, the nasdaq is down by 7 points. ge is the majority shareholder of nbc universal. mcdonald's was also a gainer after earnings met expectations but it's been a rough stretch for apple which is off about 10% from its high down about 2 and a half percent today. now back to hardball. welcome back to "hardball." do republicans think mitt romney is already doomed right now?

take a look at what he wrote in politico. poll after poll indicates the presidential campaignç is a de heat but you wouldn't know it by talking to many republican professionals. if you gave them truth serum, they would i t romney would lose. under the table, there is pervasive pessimism among republicans about romney's prospects this fall among his first tasks as nominee in waiting is to convince members of his own party that he can win. and a public service at texas a&m and editorial director for the huffington post. with all due respect, the white house chief of staff, we start with you. why do we keep getting these whips of disinterest, of pessimism about romney?

they don't seem that excited about this guy? >> chris, why would you use a french term? no, seriously, republicans are getting enthused about mitt romney. he's putting together a good campaign. there was some thinking he wasn't the best nominee, he wasn't the best candidate. he was, and he was a great president. i think mitt romney will be a great president. he's putting together a team. there is no second guessing about the mitt romney nomination, we'rer(s& waiting o see who he will pick as a running mate. >> are you excited about mitt romney being a nominee? >> i am. >> you're excited? >> i am. >> you don't look excited. >> mitt romney is a leader.

he has the capacity to lead this nation. i watched him make a big difference in salt lake city and he certainly made a difference in massachusetts, which is a tough state. >> you do a lot of reporting. is this the reality out there among professionals? republicans? >> i think they're trying to get over the mood that jonathan martin described accurately in his piece. i think they're trying to get there. they're not trying to get there by way of saying how much they love mitt romney himself. i think andy may be a bit of an exception there. mostly they're saying he's going to have a gangbusters professional campaign, he's running against the president who can be beaten, and he's running at a time when the economy is still very dicey and he does have legitimate business experience. in other words, they're trying to will themselves into getting excited about it. if you look at the polls, mitt

romney -- >> you know how funny this sound, don't you? >> mitt romney has now consolidated the republican vote in the polls, the question is whether those people turn up. >> they kind of talked themselves into being -- indiana governor mitch daniels had some strong words about the romney campaign saying he's too focused

mitt romney will be our nominee, and i hope that governor romney listens to mitch daniels, i know that he will, and i think his campaign will be a very robust campaign. we don't get to pick the perfect nominee of our parties. we get to have the candidate run for president who represent our party, and mitt romney is going to represent our party. he'll do a great job. he'll be a great president because he has the courage to make tough decisions. he's got the wisdom to give thought to those decisions in the context of our economy and our people, and i think he'll do a good job. there are just as many democrats who have anks about the democratic ticket as well as the republican ticket. i know my democratic friends think should biden be replaced by hillary clinton, i hear it all the time. some of them even say there's a little buyer's remorse with president obama. >> who do you hang out with?

about. what you're talking i think you have a good point. i hear the same thing you hear. let's take a look at this. this is one of the bosses of your party, andy. his name is grober normquist. he says, this is not the taft-eisenhower or goldwater-rockefeller. we're not nominating a candidate to tell the party what direction to go. wulff them are republicans. we know what we're doing and what worry. we just want a guy to sign the bills. you want this guy to be a functi functionary that is going to sign the bills that you guys passed. what a low leader. >> i worked with president reagan, i worked with president h.w. bush and george w. bush.

i want a president who can make tough decisions, and i believe mitt romney will do that. he made tough decisions in the business world, he certainly made them in the political world. he has the capacity to be a good decider, and he will make tough decisions, implement them well, and i think we'll be a better country because of it. >> who is mitt romney? from massachusetts he was the guy who was pro choice, he was sophisticated about things like science and certainly didn't say he didn't believe in evolution when he was governor of massachusetts. he was a moderate in terms of all social issues and ran for president as this screaming anti-immigrant candidate who is far to the right on that issue, who has said he doesn'tç want anything done about climate change, is pro life. is he the guy who ran this year or did he run as governor of massachusetts? who is mitt romney? >> i've known romney for a period of time. he's a very private person.

but his life speaks volumes. he walks the walk. he is the real thing when it comes to family values, he's the real thing when it comes to concern about fellow americans, he's the real thing about making tough decisions, and he has the capacity to make tough decision because he's done it so many times. i'm very comfortable with him and i'm excited about his candidacy. i think the republican party will be in a good position as we move into the election. the democrats didn't have a primary battle but there was still a primary debate among democrats and they're not real thrilled about the ticket he put forward. >> did you see how he answered that question, howard? >> how he didn't answer that question? >> he's got that massachusetts accent he can't deny. he witnessed this moderate governor. >> i've covered andy for years. i think he's a straightforward guy -- no, he said, i love mitch

daniels. i tried to convince him to run for president. that sort of explains the situation. i think there are a lot of people in the party, including andy carr, who wanted somebody else examine they'll settle for mitt romney. >> let's make it tougher for you. a new nbc poll just came out. this is fascinating among the numbers. let's take a lookç at this. obama versus romney. look at these numbers. among latinos, take a look at this group. 69% to 22% among latinos. that's a pretty strong set of numbers there, 69 to 22. among younger voters, 18 to 34. 60% to 34%. women, 53% to 31%. independent voters, 31-34. these numbers almost triumphant for the president. how does mitt romney change the minds of latinos he's sort of

been bashing all this campaign saying he wants them to self-deport. and younger people, how does he become hip? how does he convince women he's not from the yahoo party, and how does he get independents to vote for him when he's been a right winger. >> i feel it's very, very early. polls can't -- we're still months away from the general election in november. >> they can't win this way. the pundits will lose if it stays the way it is in the latino community. >> i was confused.

i don't think a republican can win with those kinds of numbers. of the numbers you showed there, those are the most important. >> we have time to work. a lot of people in america were not paying attention to the republican primary. republicans were, but a lot of i understand pen-- independents a democrats were not. >> i'm trying to get an interview with george bush, sr. you are one great guy. thank you. congratulations on getting that deanship, what an honor that must be to be dean of that great school down there. the sex scandal coming up in a second. this is "hardball." with every door direct mail from the postal service, you'll find the customers that matter most:

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we're back with breaking news. there are new developments in the secret service prostitution scandal down in colombia. kristin walker is the washington correspondent. kristen, what my sources with knowledge about this investigation, there are now 12 secret service personnel under investigation. just a few hours ago it was 11 who were under investigation. so now that number has bumped up to 12. i'm also being told that one of the original 11 will be cleared in this instance. that i want to stress the word possible because they are still making sure that they have their stories straight. the other big piece of breaking news here, we are he can pecking within the half hour, according to multiple sources familiar with the investigation, and also our sources on the hill, we are expecting the secret service to announce that they are out offing three more personnel members. earlier this week we heard that

they were getting rid of three agents. three supervisors and one nonsupervisor. so three more expected to be dismissed by the end of business today. they want to get ahead of this investigation. they want it to be fast. they want to show essentially that they are on top of this. chris? >> what have you learned about the background of the agents that have had to leave already. >> reporter: well, david cheney is!óne of them. this is someone with a long history of the secret service. his father was with the agency. this is someone with a long history with this agency. he was a supervisor. his colleagues apparently thought quite a lot of him. so he is the secret service agent who was allowed to retire. he has sought legal counsel, though. although, his attorney is not talking. the second person is greg stokes

who worked with the canine unit, also a supervisor. he is taking legal action. he was reprimanded for removal, which is another way for saying that he was fired. he has 30 days to follow up with that. both of these agents have a long history with the service and those who know them say that they are surprised. >> let's go right now to dave wilkinson who retired after 22 years in the agency. he served as assistant special agent in charge for eight years under president clinton and bush. what do you think about these agents under fire? we heard that maybe there's one less now, maybe three more. three of them are big trouble. what do you make of the postings where you put out a picture of sarah palin and that kind of thing and they are making fun of her and talking about her? >> well, chris, the secret service has long had a culture of absolute zero tolerance

against any type of personal misconduct. anything like this is a nightmare for agents and theç secret service when they see something like this. i would just argue with anyone that would suggest that the culture of the secret service has changed in some way to allow this sort of thing. a culture that would allow this to happen day in and day out. it's not the case. it couldn't be farther from the truth. >> perhaps this does depart from that. perhaps this is a photo of david cheney. this is his facebook page showing him standing watch behind sarah palin in a 2008 campaign. the comments for the photo, he wrote, i was really checking her out, if you know what i mean. what do you think about that? >> that is our worst nightmare. these agents go through training and briefings and this is exactly what they are told not to do continuously. i don't know what to say other than every secret service agent that sees this cringes because they all know that this is

definitely against the rules of the secret service. >> i have to tell you, i agree with you. after years of working at the white house and coming into contact with them as a reporter, almost the people at the buckingham palace or arlington cemetery. they don't engage. they are very professional. i agree. that's been their manner. this is a departure from it, i think. thank you, dave wilkinson , a former agent himself. when we return, the one number that will determine whether oem or romney gets elected. one number. huh! and then the baby bear said, "i want 50% more cash in my bed!" phhht! 50% more cash is good ri... what's that. ♪ you can spell. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? ha ha.

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let me finish tonight with this. sometimes being a political pundit is the easiest thing in the world. want to know who is likely to win the battle between mitt romney and president obama? one number. the jobless rate. it's 8.2 right now and that's the starting point. so the question is, where is it going to be on the friday before the election? that first friday in november. my hardball line, ready, set, go. if the jobless number for october is up near 9, obama's got real, deep trouble. anybody who says different is either out of it or simply covering for him. anywhere near 9%, in the high 8%, it's bad, bad news for the president. what's a good, solid number? if the jobless number drops to 8, he's got a good case to make that he's got things headed in the right direction.

i know being a democrat, his people will be talked into not bragging about such a number. remember al gore booted it in 2000 by not taking credit for the strong economy for fear it might offend someone. but the fact is, people pay attention to the news and will feel like the president is on solid ground, again, if it's down to 8%, 10.2 in october 2009. we'll all be watching the big three debates betweenç romney d obama. it will be great theater. but both will be operating in a situation that will allow one to attack and the other to have to defend. it will decide as much as any of them have to say that night. why? because everything that romney had to say about obama rise or fail, everything having done the right thing will depend on whether he's making real