answers. >> anna writes some critter trying to get through my ac vent. and one writes my cat is many of those we get. the puppies being delivered, kittens, human beings being delivered in delivery rooms much i'll say it again. way too early induces labor. it's medicine. it's science. what else you got? >> we got you on the fourth hour of "the today show" today. one writes, you wearing top polish nails, matching lip goo and skin tight sheath dress over span accide spanx today? >> i am filling in for kathy lee, and i don't want to reveal anything, but i am wearing manx today, male spanx. there's a reason that lady is a billionaire. they work. morn starts right now. >> i'd consider it, but i doubt i'll get a call.

and i don't know if it's the right thing for me to do. i didn't run for president for similar kind of reasons. >> i think i would demand reconsideration and send mr. romney a list of people i think could suit better. >> we have a nominee now, and our nominee, mitt romney, the leader of the republican party, has a vice presidential process in place. and i think from this point moving forward, i think it would be wise for all republicans to kind of respect that process. good morning. it's monday, april 23. welcome to "morning joe." it's so rainy here in new york city. with us on set, we have executive editor at random house and pulitzer prize winsining historian and time magazine editor and steve rattner. you got changed. what happened to financier? >> i am told that financer is not a good word. it's like exterminator. >> i love it. it's rich.

>> it doesn't poll well. >> really? >> no. i'm putting it back. i won't have it. >> even in this zip code. >> even in this zip code? my goodness. i was on the phone with my french political expert going over the results. >> monsieur hollande? >> yes. but what did jeb say about vp? >> next time show up on time. >> that he would talk. >> he'll talk about it. that's what's going to happen. jeb bush. >> come on. >> you've got to talk if somebody calls you. >> it will be good. >> you put florida in the column. romney is terrible in the south. that would be something. >> that would be something. it would pick back up our american democratic did i nastic theme, where a bush or a clinton would be back on the ticket, thank god. because there was a year -- >> thank god. >> one cycle. >> where there hasn't been a bush or a clinton.

>> since 1980. >> what's the calculation for jeb bush, though? if she wants to he wants to be thinks mitt romney may lose, does it hurt him at all? >> no. listen, right now it gets him out of the shadow of his older brother, who, you know, jeb would have been the guy running for president in 2000 if he would have won in '94. and so it allows him win or lose to go out and prove that he's not his brother. >> you just mentioned one of the great what ifs. it's like when -- if ford had got on the ticket in 1980, what would have happened to the bush family? if childs hadn't done that late push against bush in '94 and jeb had won -- >> the last four days. if jeb had fought back, because lawton said outrageous things. he said jeb was going to cut medicare and social security as a governor. [ laughter ] >> they did all of these midnight calls. it was the sleaziest. it was a lot of push polling

back before a lot of push polls was going on. but lawton's people called around and said, did you know jeb bush was going to cut your medicare and social security? and of course, that would be a neat trick as governor. but that changed history. because there is no doubt in anybody's mind inside or outside the bush family if jeb had won in '94, and he just lost the last day because of that last push. that one day, the big what if, jeb would have been president in 2000. >> well, our top story could tell you why this might not even be worth talking about. >> really? >> yeah. >> that's not a very affirming thing to say. >> well, it was a negative passive aggressive transition. let's get to the news. this week, mitt romney and president obama continued to crisscross through swing states. the president has scheduled stops in north carolina and romney continues to campaign in pennsylvania. and numbers are pointing to why the president's numbers are

improving in 14 key swing states. among the states highlighted, florida, had seen at one point a 7% decrease in unemployment. in ohio, employment has dropped 1.3% in the past year. and 1.6% drop in nevada. despite this apparent good news, the commission situation still remains grim for the president. the current national average for unemployment remains at 8.2%. this analysis comes as mitt romney and president obama's teams are sharpening their campaign messages ahead of november's general election. >> the road we're on has a president who has to recognize that he's failed. he has to understand that he hasn't created the jobs that he spoke about in denver. instead of taking responsibility, and acknowledging what he's done wrong, he casts about looking for someone else to blame. he tries to divide the american people. that's what we're in for. you're going to see one person after the other castigated.

this is a president who is dividing america. >> a lot of republicans in congress want to cooperate and know better, but they are in the thralls of this reign of terror from the far right. governor romney and the party has gone way off to the right. i think these folks are going to recognize when they lose this election that that was the wrong path to take. >> one of the opinion pieces today points out that mitt romney did one of those speeches in ohio at a drywall plant that actually closed during the bush administration. but anyhow, the criticism among of the republican party -- >> that's all you got? >> well, it's just bad. what's his team doing? it's ridiculous. >> that's all you got? >> no. that's pretty good, actually. >> let's talk first of all. we were -- there was an a.p. story this weekend that said, steve rattner, in a lot of the swing states, you actually have really good news or pretty good news when it comes to unemployment. this is a lot like 1980. we talked about 1980. when you had a lot of bad news

for jimmy carter, where the industrial midwest was doing worse than the rest of the country so carter just lost all of those swing states. looks like it's going the other direction this year. >> well, remember a couple of things. first of all, you have to have the age-old debate about whether the trend or the absolute level is more the determinant of what happens on election day. the trend as you just saw is quite favorable. in a state like michigan, which i guess we don't consider a swing state anymore, the unemployment rate has dropped from 15% to under 10%. i think it's one of the fastest drops in the country. but i think every one of those states we just looked at, and pretty much all of those states, still have unemployment above the national average. >> except ohio, they are below the national average. >> that's fair. and it's a question of trend versus level. there's still very high unemployment in these states but it's moving in the right direction. >> and they are also cross currents in state-by-state. in ohio, john kasich, a republican governor who has not done great over the past couple

of years, he has seen unemployment goes down. and who do they give credit to? the governor, to the president? >> but the president is obviously going to try to take a lot of credit, particularly for the so-called manufacturing revival. i wouldn't yet call it -- again, it's a question of trend and level. manufacturing is still way depressed in this country but it's well off the bottom. there's been a lot of manufacturing jobs added in the last year. and the president as you know has spent a lot of time in the midwest trying to take credit for that. >> and he has -- i think he has without a doubt locked down michigan because of work that you did. >> so we're going to have jon huntsman on? >> yeah. >> i want to read this story about him because it's really good. >> if it's really good, it must be really bad for republicans. >> and i have a youtube video i want to show you. >> we're going to show this youtube video because you're playing the type. >> i think you're being negatively passive aggressive. >> can you be positive? >> it's so hilarious. i was just showing it to wilbert.

>> did you see this imitating mika? >> we'll show it in a little bit. more bashing of the gop. >> the criticism of the republican party isn't just limited to democrats. last night jon huntsman ripped into the gop at an event in new york city comparing the party to communist china, saying, quote this is what they do in china on party matters if you talk off script. huntsman was referring to being disinvited to a republican fundraiser after he called for a third party movement on "morning joe." the former governor of utah also commented on the republican party stance towards china, stopping short of directly criticizing mitt romney instead of taking a broad swipe at republicans saying, quote, i don't know what world these people are living in. and when asked if he could win the nomination of the republican party in utah today, huntsman said he could not, adding later that ronald reagan would likely not be able to win the gop nomination nationally in this political climate. >> now, which by the way is one of the reasons why a lot of the

good in jon huntsman is coming up later on today, and this is the first time, willie, this has happened of course on morning television, doing the interview completely in mandarin. >> oh, in mandarin. good. >> it's going to be so much better than the last interview. your accent is much better. but these are the things you can say at the 92nd street y that you can't say in iowa, for example. >> it's not exactly the orange county of -- >> i think jon may be liberated. >> he is just fine, thank you. >> speaking of out -- >> orrin hatch. they had this nominating process. orrin hatch needed 60% to avoid a primary, and he got 59%, which is close, but no cigar. and i guess this is the first time, jon meacham, he has run in a contested primary since 1976. >> i think the lesson of this for both him and senator luger would be that not since henry

clay had a primary, both luger and hatch. a lot of old lions are facing changing electorates. but every 36 years like clorkwork. [ laughter ] >> just like clockwork. >> and a lot of people are saying this is the end of the republican party as we know it. maybe it is. i don't know. orrin hatch seems pretty conservative to me, but apparently not conservative enough. he had about $1 million dumped in from outside conservative groups. >> he is getting a lot of heat from the tea party. i think i would challenge -- i would be interested on your take that ronald reagan could not win the republican nomination this time around. >> i don't think that's true. >> i think we've heard that a lot, that even ronald reagan couldn't win a nomination in this climate. >> i can't remember exactly what year, maybe '98, '99, pbs did a very i think balanced and even warm documentary about reagan.

that sort of made it safe for liberals to say he wasn't satanic. and so i think what people are doing is reacting to the post presidential image of reagan. remember, most -- you know, a lot of the establishment press, a lot of democrats, still thought reagan was awful, all the way to the end. >> oh, my lord. >> went from being the nuclear cowboy to -- >> the fact that you have people now that are democrats that say, oh, ronald reagan was reasonable. go back -- >> exactly. >> and read what anthony lewis and "the new york times" wrote about ronald reagan. go back and read what the editorial board of "the new york times" wrote about ronald reagan. go back and read what main -- i mean, my god, seriously? if somebody decided to just write a book on slanderous quotes against ronald reagan throughout the 1980s by the people now saying, well, you know, he was a reasonable

republican, that would be a fun book to read. >> but what do you think about that argument that, ronald reagan wouldn't recognize his own party? >> it's very simple. very, very simple. and we go back to father pat buchanan, who always -- >> mon-signore. >> and this is the way that -- i mean, you should look at it. he always talked about political athletes. barack obama was a great political athlete. hillary clinton, a great political athlete. in 2012, the conservatives were the clunkers. that didn't run the 4.3 40. they run the 7.4 40 while eating a big mac and smoking a cigarette. and mitt romney wasn't flashy, but the moderate this year had the best operation, was best in the debates, and was the best political athlete, which again is not saying a whole lot. but if you had a conservative that was a good political athlete, that conservative would win the day.

and frame the issues the way he or she wanted to frame the issues. and the liberals would still be calling them crazy and right wing and dangerous and, my god, why couldn't they have been like, you know, ronald reagan was when we were calling him a fascist? the fascist gun in the west. >> i think the things that governor huntsman was talking about were all when he was governor of california, raising taxes, liberal abortion law. all of that was clearly in the record. to joe's point, he was able to project an image. you knew his core principles, but what made him a great president is that you knew he had a coherent vision that he departed from dogma to govern. and that's what makes a president great. >> and by the way, it's not like mitt romney would have been to the right of ronald reagan. we elected a guy that was pro choice, pro gun control. said he was more liberal on gay marriage than ted kennedy.

was the architect of nationalized health care. at one point went after john kasich for being against collective bargaining. i mean, we have elected a guy that's not a conservative by a long shot. so these arguments that reagan couldn't even win this year, kind of misses the point of who actually did win this year. >> yeah. i think reagan was really, joe, your classic small government conservative in terms of what he ran on and what he tried to govern on, recognizing that he had to compromise, cut taxes, shrink government, aggressive anti-communist foreign policy. >> and spoke to the social issues but did not let them get in the way of a deal on, you know, tax cuts or saving social security. >> all right. let's get one more news story in here. former nixon aide and key figure during the watergate

scandal charles chuck colson has died from complications of brain surgery he had in march. colson, who was sent to jail, turned to religion forming a prison fellowship which became the world's largest outreach to prisoners and their families. he spoke about the scandal that denined the nixon presidency said, quote, we've been given a wonderful mandate to rule over the next four years. we were reduced to a petty worst on the night of what should have been our great triumph. >> and chuck colson, of course, i will just say i loved the guy, i loved what he became, i love that he reached out to people. we always talk about matthew 25 here, the part of matthew 25 that most if not all forget is visit those in jails. chuck colson visited those in jails. and from '76 forward made a life of it. but he was talking about being nixon's hatchet man in '72.

they saw the landslide come in 49 states. the greatest landslide in american history up to that point, other than reagan later in '84, and they said they were just sitting there stewing. and he said what should have been the greatest night for us was actually just another grim, dark evening. it was fascinating, the life. "the new york times" just talked about his fascinating turn-around. >> yeah. he would have not been out of place in a shakespearean tragedy, you know, serving the king, finding in the hour of triumph they were actually gloomy. he did not -- you know, he was one of the guys who made watergate possible. and paid a price for it, went to jail. the conversion seems absolutely to have been genuine. decades of important work, as you say. i remember talking to him once asking him about whether the

nixon white house had ever considered trying to use billy graham politically. and he said, well, yeah, i was in charge of that. so he has kind of a sense of humor about his sins. but, you know, it is a great story. and i think anybody who knows much about the prison fellowship knows that it's a legitimate and impactful organization. >> yeah. it really is. it is a remarkable organization. because of chuck colson's life. but, you know, he was responsible for doing something that some evangelicals got upset about, turned their back on him, when he decided that evangelicals should form a conservative alliance with conservative catholics. and he lost some money. he lost a lot of support from the evangelical community. but that was one of the more fateful decisions, because that is a powerful, powerful not just voting bloc but also a powerful

bloc on cultural issues like the one we just were talking about a couple of months ago, on catholic health institutions. >> so this may come as a shock to you, but colson went to brown, where i also went, and a few years ago when i was on the board of brown i suggested we give him an honorary degree, that i thought that someone who had so thoroughly changed his life for the better -- we should believe in redemption and second chances and give him an honorary degree. my fellow fellows didn't agree with that. >> oh, what a shock. what a shock. >> what's that say? >> i wonder if a liberal aide for lbj had turned his life around and touched the lives of millions of prisoners and their families, i wonder if they would -- well, wow. so that's -- and tell us why, instead of focusing on their narrow mindedness. >> i don't want to be critical. >> no, did i that for you. but that is a shameful -- >> it's ok to disagree sometimes. >> there were two things.

i think amazingly enough, on a campus where nobody who was on that campus as a student was born when any of this happened, the memories of watergate still exists and chuck colson still exist in many's mind in a certain way and many can't forgive him for that. and the second is that you mentioned this organization is of unimpeachable reputation. i think there was some concern about some of the policies they stood for, and i don't remember really even what they were, maybe involving women, that didn't seem to comport with the idea of brown university values. >> well, i mean, i think he was a social conservative. he was an evangelical. and i'm sure that he supported pro-life issues, supported traditional marriage. and so i'm sure that was probably a big bump in the road. the question is whether our most elite universities have room in them. and i'm not just talking about brown. we're talking about all of our

elite institutions are open minded enough to accept people of all political stripes. >> the things we learn about rattner. ok. coming up next, mike allen with an exclusive first look at politico's top stories of the morning. in a few moments, former presidential candidate jon huntsman will join us onset. also, author of the book "war" sebastian junger will be here. and david rothkoff inside the power struggle between big business and big government. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. good morning, mika. we needed the rain. we just didn't need it to ruin our sundays up and down the east coast. now this morning the story is changing from rain to snow. yes, this is going to be a significant snow. already is in areas of pennsylvania and western new york. this is somerset, pennsylvania. we are looking at big, heavy wet snowflakes. and notice there are leaves on the trees. a you get a couple of inches on

there, and we'll hear the branches crack and we'll have thousands of power outages. it's really areas from buffalo to pittsburgh and the higher terrain outside of pittsburgh and buffalo. that's where we have picked up some significant snow. we'll expect a little bull's-eye there south of buffalo. that's who could pick up six inches of snow. for pittsburgh, only one to three for you. buffalo, three to six inches. in areas like youngstown, ohio, giantstown, new york, and johnston, pennsylvania, those could be the biggest totals. as far as new york to boston is concerned, shower today, but not rain like yesterday. we have beautiful, i mean gorgeous weather in the middle of the country. in the west, it's hot. 105 in phoenix. and snowing today in buffalo, new york. it's a pretty picture. as long as you have power. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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time to take a look at the morning papers. mika -- >> no, go for it. i'm good. >> the "wall street journal" says -- >> sarkozy. they give me the ones with the hard words. >> sarkozy is a tough word? can you read it, please? >> for you, yes. doom maybe for the french president and his re-election chances. in the first round of presidential voting, the conservative sarkozy came in second to francois hollande, sending the two into a run-off on may 6 to decide the presidency.

extreme right candidate who targeted the country's muslims took 18% of the vote, higher than anyone in fact. >> this is actually -- i disagree with all the other analysts. i think this is very good news for sarkozy. >> you think it's good news? >> i do. if you look at it, sarkozy shares a lot of views on immigration, nationalism. you add up the results and the r right coalition did better than the left coalition. we'll see. from "the new york times." >> whole foods. >> says it will stop selling seafood is considers unsustainable. they will follow guidelines based on how abundant a species is, how quickly it reproduces, and the method used for catching. you know, the guys that go out there and just basically throw the nets down and troll up all the fish, they are not going to take that anymore. some fishermen have accused the company of killing their

livelihoods for the sake of a marketing ploy. they also point out that the government already has conservation measures in place. whole foods, such a fascinating, fascinating store. >> yeah. >> i think a lot of people shopping at whole foods would be deeply disturbed to find out that the guy that runs whole food size a small government conservative bordering on being a libertarian. he is a fascinating guy. >> yes, but his -- >> i found most progressives don't like that kind of balance. they want to control the whole thing. now let's go to mike allen at politico for a look at his play book. good morning. >> good morning, guys. >> i loved what you called bill clinton here, the obama campaign whisperer. the clintons have already washed off 2008 for the most part, and are ready to back the president.

what role will bill clinton play in this campaign? >> well, he is giving advice, raising some money, and they take his advice. very fascinating change. if you read between the lines of what the obama campaign and the white house have been saying about mitt romney, there's been a shift. rather than portraying him as the weather vane, the flip flopper, the guy with no core, now based partly on advice from bill clinton they are portraying him more as right wing extremist, trying to lock him in to those super conservative positions he took during the primary on the theory that it hurts him with women, makes it harder for him to get back to the middle, with hispanics. so bill clinton's advice was if he's going to take these right-wing positions, let's lock him in there. that gives us a huge advantage. so we'll still here the shape shifting a little bit, we'll still hear a lot about bain. but right now the campaign thinks right wing conservative is the best place to try and lock him in.

>> but, mike, who believes it? who believes that mitt romney is a right wing conservative? i understand the argument, it might work against santorum or gingrich or somebody else. but mitt romney, you know he is not a right wing conservative. you know he's not specifical specifically -- he's not really anything. he's what you want him to be. >> well, what they're going to say is take him at his most recent word. this is what he's been saying. that's why conservatives, the base, should not be worried about what mitt romney would do in office. he's locked in to a lot of this stuff now. the conservatives won the primary by getting him to wind up where they wanted him to be. whatever he had been or said in the past. >> do you think that works, willie? >> no. but i think they are going to use that ryan budget. you have heard them say it over again. the republican budget implying that mitt romney because he hasn't shouted it down hasn't come out full throat in support of it, but that's the republican

budget that wants to put old people on the streets and kick children out of their homes. >> i agree with mike. i think romney is now -- i agree with you that in his heart of hearts he is a moderate, but he is on record with so many conservative positions that i think he'll have a hard time walking back from them. >> what works better, flip flopper or right wing radical when you don't he is not a right wing radical? we know he is a flip flopper. he is against an individual mandate now. i can show you a clip that he's for it. anti-gay marriage now. i can show you a clip where he's pro. >> even though you are telling the truth, do not go on twitter today. you're going to get killed. >> no. i'm just saying, it seems to me working the truth, which is he is a flip flopper and he'll take whatever position it takes to win the election in front of him, is a lot more compelling than saying something he is not. he is just not a right wing radical. he is not even conservative.

>> well, i would imagine what president clinton is arguing that mike is reporting is that, you know, you might as well start with what he most recently said. see if it sticks. and if he starts moving again, you can hit him with the, there's nobody there. why not use what's on the record right now and say he is out of the mainstream, and if he starts to waffle, say, ok, so you're not even that? >> yeah. >> sheesh. >> and i think the other thing it does, it makes him harder for him to do his etch a sketch moment. keep him away from that rewriting of history by reminding him what history is. >> mike allen, thanks. we'll talk to you soon. still ahead, metaworld peace. the artist formerly known as ron artest may have to change his name after this vicious elbow yesterday. >> what in the world? what's he doing? >> how long will the suspension be for this one? also, governor chris christie of new jersey fights back against claims that he fell

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welcome back to "morning joe." we're going to explain that. >> that was ugly. can we look at that photograph again? that was an ugly photograph, willie. >> that was saturday afternoon. yeah. >> look at that. i hate to even shine a light on it. >> red sox up 9-0. and what did "the new york times" say yesterday? >> yankees two late touchdowns carry day. that wasn't good. we'll get to that in a second. the big story in sports, the elbow thrown by meta world peace, formerly known as ron artest. he says as he was celebrating, he throws a ferocious elbow. >> that's not very nice. >> james hardin of the oklahoma thunder. >> that hurts. not very nice. >> the guy can't play the rest

of the season, right? >> james hardin was diagnosed with a concussion and did not return to the game. the play earned meta world peace a flagrant two foul and an ejection. tide at 104-104, under a minute to go, kobe hits the jumper. lakers win 114-106. after the game, though, all the talk about meta world peace does that elbow. here he is. >> i got really emotional, real excited. and it was unfortunate that james had to get hit, you know, with the unintentional elbow. and i hope he's ok. and the thunder are playing for a championship this year. so i really hope that he's ok. i apologize to the thunder. and to james harden. such a great game. and it was unfortunate, you know, so much emotion was going on. >> you know, if he can't control himself, man, seriously, he needs to be out the rest of the season. >> he claims it was inadvertent.

the regular season only has one or two games left. we'll see if the nba takes him out of the playoff. no stranger to action from the league, he was suspended for 86 games for his role in the infamous 2004 brawl with the fans in detroit where he went up into the stands and started swinging. >> in that case, i have to say, the fans deserved it. >> oh, really? we'll see what the league does with that. >> what do you think? seriously, i don't think you let him back in for the playoffs. >> that was voight. >> sit him down. >> and also he is a repeat offender. >> the fans in detroit, though, they asked for it. >> stop. the rangers and tigers wrapping up a three-game set with some controversy. top of the 11th, alberto gonzalez suicide squeeze that brought ahead the go-ahead run. and the tigers manager jim leyland is out to argue the ball hit gonzalez and should have been ruled foul. the replay back backs up his

case, but the call stood and the rangers won 3-2. >> how good are the rangers? >> really good. the best team in baseball. or the dodgers. >> and the dodgers in washington. who by the way, by the end of the season, i have to stop calling them the senators. >> the senators. throwback. >> i'm always like, the senators are looking good this year. >> they are really good. on friday, as we said, the yankees spoiled the 100th anniversary of fenway. >> it was a wonderful event. >> the next day, the yanks rallied from nine runs down in the sixth. they were down 9-0. went on to win the game 15-9. >> i guess tj doesn't have the photo. and that's fine. seriously, they -- it was three hours since they put it up last. so -- >> it's his prerogative. >> they are up 9-0. and they take it down as we are explaining the photo. >> by sunday, the best the red

sox could hope for was help from mother nature. mike barnicle saturday night, dear god, i have tried to lead a good life. never really asked you for much. begging you now please make it rain in boston sunday. downpour! barnicle got his wish. he has a close relationship with the lord as you know. sunday's game, yes, postponed because of rain. >> ok. can i just say, and barnicle told me that all of these people that are blaming bobby valentine for a bad april, do we need to remind them what happened in september? this is the same team that lost more games in september while they were in the hunt, had the biggest collapse in the 110-year history of major league baseball, and they are blaming bobby valentine for what's happening? no. it's because our bullpen is terrible.

and our pitchers are -- this may be -- this may be the worst bullpen i have ever seen on a major league baseball team. and it was put together by theo epstein. i'm not one to point fingers. you know i'm not. but really, seriously, this is not bobby v's team yet. this is still theo's team from last year. how do you blame bobby valentine? >> it's funny how short the memories are. they were chanting at fenway on saturday, tito, tito! bring back terry francona, who oversaw that collapse. >> it was wonderful to be there on friday. i loved it. >> the sox put on a great event. >> they did? >> yeah, they did. it was -- i mean, i teared up like three or four times. and from tito came out, that was nice. >> yes, that was nice. >> well-run that fenway park. beautiful. >> it was actually the most moving sporting event i have been at since the '99 all-star game at fenway, when ted williams came out. >> yeah, yeah. it was fantastic.

we're very, very honored to have been there. don't say a bad word about it. >> i didn't say anything bad. >> memories that will last a lifetime. >> yes. >> and as far as baseball, memories that will last a lunchtime. >> exactly. >> but i have a prediction. you know, we're going to be in the hunt. >> i'm not losing hope. i don't give up. >> we've got great players. >> many of them are hurt, but they may come back. >> we'll be back. the sox will be back. just back off bobby v. must reads next. but first this announcement. >> what? >> continuing our commitment to education with starbucks. >> oh, yeah, that one. >> that's awesome. >> we are teaming up with donorschoose.org to support class rooms in need. thanks to this generosity, all donations you make will be doubled until we reach $500,000. to give, visit donorschoose.org/morningjoe. they get a list of what schools

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time for the must-read opinion pages as we take a live look at capitol hill after 47 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a couple of great ones. >> steve rattner wants you to read -- >> i know, there's a piece on elizabeth warren. but as you can see, she is beloved on both sides of the aisle. >> both sides of the aisle? >> i love the "wall street journal" editorial page more. >> i won't read it. >> it's fascinating. >> there's a simple point. and the point is she is totally in favor of obama care, except that it has a tax on the makers of medical devices that are located in boston, massachusetts heavily. >> and having said that, she is the best that ever was. thank you, steve. >> she is a great politician. great piece in "the

washington post." >> by the way, i talked to scott brown and i told him, you might contribute some money. write a check. >> i heard. that reached my ears. >> don't you care. >> and scott kissed me by the wall. there you go. "new york times," the ammeez yeah candidate. the administration has suffered repeatedly from complacency taking a few months of good news as an excuse to rest on its laurels rather than hammering home the need for more action. so there a valid critique one can make of the administration's handling of the economy. but that's not the critique mr. romney is making. instead, he civis basically attacking mr. romney for not acting as if george bush had been given a third term. are the american people and the news media forgetful enough for that attack to work? i guess we'll find out. >> steve rattner, i think a lot of us see paul krugman the

editorialist, not the economist, but the editorial writer as a cartoon character. he is two dimensional. he plays to type. but in this case, you say he's got a point. >> yeah. i think buried inside of that, what he is really trying to say is that if you -- it's a little about what we're talking about before. if you pin down romney on his positions and say, what are you going to do to create jobs? if the answer is the ryan budget, i don't think any economist would tell you in the short run that creates jobs. if the answer is to sort of cut government spending, i don't think that creates jobs in the short run. i think where obama has an opening to pin down romney is on this question, what is it in your economic plan, governor, that will actually get unemployment below 8.3% now? >> so this leads to the question of the elections in france, what happened in the netherlands over the weekend. where the government that was supposed to bring austerity is on the verge of collapse. >> right. >> reconsiderations all across europe. austerity versus stimulus spending. this is a battle right now.

this is the battle of the west, is it not? >> it is the battle of the west. now the elections in europe of which there have been six or seven have been as much about throwing out the incumbents because people are unhappy as clearly defined between the austerity and the more liberal element. >> because center right candidates have won in germany, and in england, and in france and in spain. >> and in italy you have a technocrattic prime minister and even in greece. >> so austerity is winning the day in europe right now. >> in some places. but you have this reaction against it in the netherlands. and in hollande wins in france, he certainly has promised to roll back austerity. and just like here, people are unhappy and unsure and don't really know which is the better solution. >> all right. >> jon meacham? >> you made a really important point. i think romney has to be very specific very soon. because i think people are going to be looking for that in this climate. >> and, you know, the problem is because of the ideologies of

both parties, you can't say what needs to be said, which is we're going to take care of long-term debt. we're going to make really tough choices on entitlement reform that the democrats don't like, and really tough choices on defense spending and tax reform that republicans don't like. and so we're going to take care of our long-term debt. and the markets are going to throw money at the united states. but we're going to keep spending in the short-term over the next two, three years until we revive this economy. neither side can say that. and is that not where the answer lies? >> yes, yes. >> you take care of the mortgage over 30 years. but in the short run, you build your small business. >> willie has "news you can't use" next.

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oh, yes. >> time for news you can't use. this story happened at the end of last week, but we were busy at fenway. a political scandal brewing in state of new jersey, called snooze-gate. a fake political scandal, our favorite kind. chris christie denies that he fell asleep during a springsteen concert at madison square garden. this photograph was taken of him and posted to twitter, a photo that appears to show him taking a snooze during the springsteen show. >> you know he's not. >> the governor fought back last week. >> some joker taking pictures of

me at madison square garden. i tell you exactly what happened. now, deborah and i were at the concert together at madison square garden. you were sitting next to me, were you not? >> yes, i was. >> at any time during the show, did i fall asleep? >> absolutely not. >> thank you. when i was fist pumping during "badlands," nobody -- i'm glad no one took pictures of that. you know, when i was singing to "out in the street" thankfully no one took pictures of that. when i was contorting myself during "because the night," no one took pictures of that. listen to "rocky ground." very spiritual song. i sat back, closed my eyes and listened to the song. i have never fallen asleep during a bruce springsteen show. i will never fall asleep during a springsteen show. >> me thinks thou doth protest too much. >> looks like he was on the stand during a cross-examination. >> it was a little checkers in there. >> he didn't fall asleep. coming up next, we'll talk

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that's disturbing. truly disturbing. i am so sorry. it's pouring rain here in new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." jon meacham is still with us, and thank god he made it here this morning because it was raining and his black car picked him up. but thank god he wore his boots. he wore his rugged -- >> do you know how difficult it is to get from 86th street? >> was it an suv or sedan you had to step into? >> those suvs are treacherous. >> with that step up? yes. also joining the table, former u.s. presidential candidate and former governor of utah, jon huntsman. >> by the way, i have to go to another jon for a second. i was told, willie geist, that the sign of being a blue blood is never wearing an overcoat because you go straight from the events to the black cars, charity balls. you never walk a block. you know, meacham hasn't had an

overcoat since he moved here. >> no. not even in the dead of winner. >> all right. >> governor huntsman, by the way, loved jon meacham's boots. >> if ever there was a clear cut indication of being upper class, it's wearing shoes like you have on. >> whose side are you on? >> not yours. >> let's talk to the two jons without an h. neither one of them have an h in them. >> that's true. >> i just come from a long line of illiterates, jon. >> same here, son. >> how did that event go at the 92nd y? >> i thought it was great. it was a fun conversation. you get to sit back with jeff greenfield, who i think is a first-rate political pundit and analyst. >> he is fantastic. >> and you get a chance to talk for an hour about the mood of the country, about the big issues, about the state of the party. et cetera, et cetera. >> now in this 24/7 climate of course, your comparison of communist china with the

republican party may draw a little bit of attention. >> may have rankled a few. >> in some conservative blocs. let us put that in perspective. >> here's what happen. >> you get drunk. you go onstage, they give you a microphone and -- >> we were talking about all kinds of things, waxing thrill sophical. and you get these political blogs out there and they take a sentence out of conit, atext an becomes a headline. >> well, that's why we're here. >> there's something called responsibility in the media these days, joe. give me a break. >> no, jon, we are here for you to put it in proper context. first we blow up the headline and then ask you to put it in context. >> last time i was on the show, i talked about a duopoly in the republican party. if they don't go big, you'll

likely have an alternative voice or separate angle of attack to knock it down. that's how politics works. shortly thereafter, i was disinvited from a public fund raising event. as we were talking about that last night, i said, you know, if you're not on script, and you get knocked out of an event like that, the parties are supposed to be big tent. you're supposed to bring in all idea. i said i thought for a moment about what they do in china if you're off script with the party. they knock you out. we shouldn't be doing that here. we should be accommodating all voices. i'm a proud republican. i'm a lincoln, roosevelt, eisenhower, raise an republican. this is a time to go big and go visionary. the country is waiting for it, and the world is waiting for it too. there's a huge opening. >> what do you think about what happened to orrin hatch this past weekend? were you disappointed he didn't get the 60%, that you have conservative groups trying to knock him off? >> i think the fact that orrin came as close as he did to 60% was a pretty big deal, given the

demographic of the 3,000 plus people. >> what does it say, though, about outside groups that think that orrin hatch is too liberal to be a senator? >> well -- >> let me say that again. orrin hatch is too liberal according to some outside groups. >> well, he's tried very hard in recent years to come around and embrace a certain party orthodoxy, this after having been the godfather of children's health care insurance and immigration reform and a lot of things this nation really does need. he'll go on, and he'll get re-elected. he'll do fine in the primary. but i think it gets back to what we have talked about on this program before, which is where is the structural reform in the system? where are the people talking about term limits, about campaign finance reform? about redistricting done in a fair and judicious way? >> where are they? >> they are not there. >> why? >> if we have an economic deficit, which we do, and some people are trying to crack the code on it, we also have a trust

deficit which i think is equally corrosive. and nobody is talking about how to deal with this massive trust deficit in this country. >> yeah. >> you've got to get people who, again, believe in their elected officials, trust their institutions of power. banks that are too big to fail, institutions of power that people are losing trust in. for the greatest democracy that ever was to be in this position, 8% approval rating for congress, give me a break. >> you're absolutely right. >> and we still wonder where that 8% comes from. we have somebody coming up later today that has a book talking about the big banks and how some big financial institutions are more powerful than certain countries. you talked about reforming the banks, breaking the banks up. nobody else is doing that despite the fact now that three, four, five banks have over 50% of all deposits in the united states. >> right. well, just as troubling, we don't have people talking about the structural reforms on capitol hill. let's face it. i get around to colleges and universities and speak to

groups. they are all becoming unaffiliated. they don't trust their system any longer. they feel their vote doesn't count. they feel it's a rigged system, that the big dollars in politics already predetermines the outcome. what does that say about the emerging generation and what we'll do to keep the greatest political systems alive and well into the next generation? >> well, we have had the two-party system -- the duopoly has basically been in charge since 1860. so every 150 years like clockwork we shift things up? what is the precipitating event that you think will break up the parties to create some kind of space for the kind of conversation that you're talking about? >> well, i'm not advocating you break up the parties as much as i'm saying that for a party to be successful and relevant today, you've got to be big, you've got to be bold, you've got to be courageous. so if the election of 1912 was a reform minded election, teddy roosevelt, william howard taft, i would say 100 years later, we fought a few wars in the

meantime, our economy has grown, a larger population, different position in the world today, we're in need today of a reform kind of election like we saw in 1912. we've got to clean up the system. we've got to clear out some of the cobwebs. we've got to renew the machinery so the next generation can succeed. >> well, i'm scared to ask, but can mitt romney do that? >> oh, i think he has every ability to rise up to the occasion. >> how about the republican party? >> well, what does it stand for today? what are the driving ideals other than being against things? what are you for? what is your big vision? what is the bold part of your agenda that you're shooting for? i would argue that we're still adrift as a country today. we've been hit twice pretty hard. 9/11. we're still trying to make sense out of what that means longer term. foreign policiwise. from an individual liberties standpoint. and we've been hit economically. we're wondering in this country what the next big thing is for the great people of the united

states of america. what is it? help us, candidates, give it some definition. give it a theme. tell us where we're going. and just having been overseas in india the last few weeks, the world is without leadership today. the world is looking for america to lead. we have a huge opportunity to step up and to be bold and get back on our feet, launching a manufacturing renaissance. whatever you want to call it. this country wants to grow. it wants to get back in the game. and it should. >> governor, you suggested also last night that you may not if an election were held today if you were running be re-elected in your home state of utah. this is from a guy who got 78% of the vote 3 1/2 years ago. a guy who left office not long ago with an 80% approval rating. has your party and your state really changed that much where even a guy with an 80% approval rate couldn't get re-elected right now? >> i think i could do that same thing all over again, because i am the same person. i'm talking about the convention

process. the few hundred people, couple of thousand maybe, who get together and then determine who will go on to the primary. i'm an advocate of open primaries. i think we ought to do away with these exclusionary conventions and caucuses. we have to incentivize people to come out and participate to heal the system longer term. so the question is, can you get through a very exclusionary convention? it could be problematic given the drift of the party. could i win a statewide election? i think without question. the last race i ran in, i got more democratic votes than my democratic opponent. why? i think people wanted hope and a sense of believability to our tomorrow. >> let me ask you, i was in the room in manchester, new hampshire, the night of that race and you said third place is a ticket to ride. on to south carolina. a few days later you dropped out of the race.

we had you on the show many times. a lot of people in the press were certainly enamored you. a smart guy, guy with a sense of humor, and very conservative guy if you look at the record. so as you look back now with a couple of months to reflect on it, how come you never quite got off the launching pad? >> well, you start a little late in the game. and then when my good better half mary kay sat down as we began this journey and said, if you pander, if you sign those silly pledges, i will leave you. [ laughter ] >> i knew at that point that we -- >> that focuses the mind. >> grover, i'm going to have to get back to you. >> to be followed up by a guy named michael moore who went on television who said, that huntsman guy, that is a guy i think i could support, to be followed up by jimmy carter, that huntsman guy, i think i could support him. to be followed by bill clinton,

he's a republican i think i can support. we were toasted in iowa by that time. >> but you were out there for a good while. the voters got to know you and yet you couldn't get out of that single digit range. wasn't there something else at work? how do you see it when you look back on it? >> i would say if you get out from the early caucuses and primaries which don't have a lot of people that turn out and participate, if you get out to those stuck in the middle and say, where's my voice, who's representing me, where are the issues that i care about? we just didn't get far enough in the campaign i think to connect to that. >> what mistakes did you make? obviously, there's nothing like running for president. you obviously, the first time around, everybody makes big mistakes the first time around. that's why very few people get elected the first time around. what were your mistakes? >> oh, i think you have to say first of all you're transitioning from the most compartmented job in the world, that being u.s. ambassador to china, and you jump into a race where the way you communicate is totally different. the way you interact with people

is -- the whole milleu is the two most opposite undertakings i could possibly imagine. you have to make that transition. and i have to blame myself. the transition from one to another is necessarily an easy one. you could point the finger and say, gee, he didn't sound like or talk like a politician. well, one, i'm not a politician. two, i just have been in a very comparted, highly sensitive diplomatic job, and you're kind of transitioning into the open campaign environment. >> it was a strange group of candidates as well, and that dynamic probably played into it. were you approached to run as an independent? >> i would say that, yeah, you're approached every now and again by people who say, we want a different voice. we want people who represent a constituency that now is not being addressed. you hear about that from time to time. and i say i'm a committed republican. i always have been. i want to see my party work.

i want to see it succeed. but i don't want to see it exclusionary. i don't want to see a small minded party. i want to see a big tent, a big visionary, bold, courageous party. those are the kind of parties that win and that move history. >> are you going to vote for governor romney? >> of course. >> enthusiastically? >> well, i think he is the person who can get this economy going again. and i say what is it that we need to do in this nation? we need to grow. we need to get moving. we need to pay the bills, deleverage, and get our direction set on the new industries of tomorrow. >> so you were talking about what the -- you didn't know what the republican party stood for. what does mitt romney stand for if what's his core conviction? >> well, listen, you -- he's -- you know, he's talking about jobs. he's talking about economic revitalization. and i think he's been consistent on that theme. i really do. you can talk about the other, you know, back and forth and flip flopping and other things. but when it comes right down to it, the final stretch, joe, this was going to be about jobs and

it's going to be about the midwest. >> does the flip flopping concern you? >> well, if you have wrapped yourself up in too many pledges, that diminishes your ability to do what needs to be done in the final stretch to some extent. i think his commitment to jobs and his ability to articulate a plan for getting us back in action, i think he can overcome those challenges. >> what has barack obama done right since he's been president? >> i think he's tried to lead out in a way that brings people together as he did when he campaigned in 2008. but it's back fired. it's had the opposite effect. why? because he doesn't have a facility with big ideas in policy. so if he'd been able to take that theme from 2008, which i thought was pretty courageous, and i thought it was pretty visionary, bringing our country together when we needed it, we were at war abroad. our economy was listing.

if he had the facility that bill clinton had around big ideas, big clinton had been a governor. he knew how to formulate ideas and implement them and get them done. or even george w. bush. he had that background as a governor. that's where the president fundamentally failed. i think he started with the best of intentions, but once you get the levers of power in the presidency, he just wasn't able to pull it off. >> what's been his biggest failure policywise? >> i would have to say a missed opening to get the economy back on track. when you have something like simpson bowles that drops on your desk, which is a bipartisan master plan for getting this nation moving again, and when you throw it in the garbage can, you have missed the biggest opening possible to take the lead, get the upper hand, with congress and the american people and saying, this is where i'm going in terms of deficit reduction. this is where i'm going in terms of tax policy. i'm going to fight it until we

reach the finish line. it might not be in perfect condition, but it's going to send a signal to the marketplace of confidence and of certainty that we don't have today. >> yeah. >> i think that would have been -- >> you know, it's interesting, mika, in the elizabeth warren editorial -- >> yes, the one i wouldn't read. >> the one you refused to read. do you have your button? >> i'm going to wear it tomorrow. some people think it's a little over the top, but it's good. >> then again, scott brown was kissing me by the green monster. but on the other side of it, what's so fascinating about that editorial is there were also democrats across america saying that president obama made a mistake going after health care when he did. including barney frank, who said after scott brown won, we should have turned our attention to the economy. >> absolutely. >> and i think this is a growing consensus among democrats and republicans, that the president fought for health care when he should have been fighting for jobs. and he threw simpson bowles in the trash can instead of listening to his own debt

commission. >> and then you take health care reform, and you turn it over to the congress to do it for you. i learned as governor, you do 75% of it yourself. or your office. and then you turn it over to the legislature or congress to take it from there. and i think that was a fatal mistake. >> so are you going to run again? >> well, i'm running to be liked in my home. with my kids. and doing all of that. >> that's a big transition. >> where are the numbers? >> yeah. i'm still working to get above the 2% level. >> it's so so hard on the families. by the way, chris christie just texted saying i should feel shame. it's terrible. >> for what reason? >> i don't know. you need to talk to him for me. >> have you ever fallen asleep at a bruce springsteen concert? >> falling asleep? i think i fell asleep at an air supply concert one time. >> they is expected. you get in the middle of "lost in love" -- >> what were you doing there, is the question. >> bruce springsteen?

give me a break. >> exactly. >> shameful. i'm not the one who should feel shame. >> he was praying. former governor huntsman, thanks so much. good to have you back. >> good to be here. >> come back soon. >> thank you. >> you know what? we're going to have to talk. >> can i get you a matching m monle, a top hat? >> you're a goober. >> what? >> who was that guy that would get into all the charity balls, very middle class guy? >> we're in the middle of an economic crisis. >> exactly. >> all right, meacham. still ahead, best-selling author sebastian junger will be here. and up next, why americans are losing faith in american institutions and what it will take to rebuild them. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪

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23 past the hour. a live look at the white house. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now from washington, the editor-in-chief of national journal ron fornier. ron's cover story "in nothing we trust" looks at americans that have lost faith in american institutions. and he writes in part this. johnny whitmire is an angry man. he feels betrayed not just by obama who won his vote in 2008 but by the institutions that were supposed to protect him. his state, which laid off his wife, his government in washington who couldn't rescue homeowners who played by the rules, and his bank, who failed to warn him about a potential mortgage hike, his city, which penalized him for somebody else's error, and even his employer, who laid him off. but it was done. he said, i was middle class for 10 years, but it's done.

i've lost my home. i live in a trailer now because of a mortgage company and an incompetent government. ron, give us the bottom line here and if there's any hope after reading something like that. >> well, the bottom line is -- and i know it's something you talk about all the time, that the public has lost faith in all of its institutions, and not just government. it's unlike any time since about when governor huntsman was talking about, 1912, the turn of the last century. when we were going through another big economic tumult that was leaving a lot of people like johnny whitmire behind. and the only hope in this is that there is some hope in history. we can see that we've been through times like this, and we have come through them. we have reformed our institutions. but when you dig down deep and spend time in a place like muncie it's hard to feel good about where we're going. >> jon meacham? >> ron, for the folks you talk to, what's the point, the turning point in time? has it been just the last couple of years? are we talking about a

decade-long decline? 30-year decline? what's the time frame? >> we're talking about 30 years. as you know, coming out of the post world war, there was two or three decades where the public's faith in institutions from government to churches to schools to big business, small business, unions, were really solid. people were feeling good about their institutions and one another. starting in the '60s, certainly in the mid '70s, everything declined, including, by the way, our trust in media. >> that is shocking. and steve rattner, i -- i don't understand that. >> well, it happened when i left journalism. that's what happened. >> not "morning joe," of course. >> no, of course not, of course not. steve rattner? >> so my question is, ron, i thought the piece was fascinating and you laid out the problems they think we all see. >> thank you. >> i guess the question is, how do you see it getting solved? i think we can all hope for a 1912 or 1860 realignment of the parties. but putting that aside as the probably less probable category, how do you see this changing?

how do you see people getting faith back in their institutions? >> it's hard to say. the only thing i can think of, steve, is we do live in an era where we have more power as people than we ever have, that we can influence the government much quicker than before. we do because of the new technologies we can make things happen. so what's got to happen we have to get madder than hell and not take it anymore and use the powers we have to demand change in government. i really think, you know, in government, for example, if we are really going to turn this around, the parties aren't going to look the same as they do now 10 years from now. one of them might be gone. one might reform themselves as the republicans did in the beginning of the 19th century. we are our institutions. we have to change this. >> ron, there are so many things over the past decade. and, you know, i think we agree with you this has been going back 30, 40 years. and we always talk about how our economic decline really began in the early 1970s. if you look at historical

trends, which of course is because again all those powers that we defeated in world war ii started rebuilding. but think about the past decade, though. well, first of all, we can start with the election of 2000, the contested election of 2000 and how that shook so many people's confidence. and then 9/11. we didn't see it coming. and then the next year. enron. and then the worldcom scandal. and then iraq the next year. >> catre katrina. >> and the guantanamo bay scandal. and the catholic sex abuse scandal. there you can go to the wall street scandals over the next decade. the booms, the bust, and the banking scandals. it does seem like all of our institutions have really taken a serious hit. >> yeah. i would throw katrina in there as well. >> katrina as well. >> people just saw it on tv, they saw people being left behind on roofs. you know, you see it this

weekend. there's not a day that goes by where you don't see this happening. walmart, one of our great business institutions, this controversy, this scandal in mexico. everywhere you turn, as johnny whitmire says in this piece, is person after person will tell you as you talk to them about this, everywhere you turn it seems like stuff that's supposed to be helping us is letting us down. and it's why you see 80 -- 70% to 80% of the public saying the country is on the wrong track. that's not just because they think washington is broken or barack obama is not doing a good job. it's because the country is on the wrong track. >> by themika, the walmart scandal, the secret service scandal, you take all of this together, jon meacham, and this is -- you know, john kennedy always said to win, you see blue sky. you go for it. you talked about the duopoly and how it will break at some point. it seems like the time has never been better for a new party or a

reform party to dominate the system. >> all of the factors, all of the ingredients are there, it seems to me. we have talked about this for a long time. and i think ron has put numbers to the general conversation. it's just been a long time since we've -- the political system has risen to or been commensurate with our hopes and historic expectations of it. and i think that right now we have an establishment party with two wings. and for all of our fighting, it's, you know, christopher lash called it the narcissism of small differences. and both sides hate it when you say that. but it has the virtue of being true. >> all the factors are there except for our electoral system, which is set up in a way to make it somewhere between difficult and impossible for a new party to really emerge. and a lot of very serious people have studied being third party candidates or trying to create a third party. there's one going on right now with americans elect.

but the system, the electoral college and the house of representatives and all the hurdles you have to get over i think have daunted the people that a lot of us would like to see do something like this. >> such parallels between this article and what former governor huntsman was saying in many levels. the story is in "the national journal," the cover story. >> how does this impact 2012, ron, the election? >> well, as the governor was saying, you look back at 1912 and see this is a time where somebody would stand up and either somebody in one of these two parties or somebody from outside the two-party system and speak to people's pain, speak to people's anger, it would really resonate with people. if ross perot could get in 1992, think about what a more relatively stable candidate could do today. it would be earth shattering. >> real quick, the problem with republicans talking about 1912 is the democrat one. >> there is that. >> but it also shows you don't have to win to change the system. >> true.

>> the cover story in "the national journal" is "in nothing we trust." ron, fornier thank you so much. >> thank you, ron. loved it. it was great. still ahead, our next guest spent five years on the frontlines documenting the fight in afghanistan. he'll join us. keep it right here on "morning joe." ♪ surf's up everybody get your boards and your wetsuits ♪

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no, this is not on tape. this is live in pennsylvania this morning. good morning. welcome back to "morning joe." cruel april snow in areas of western new york and western pennsylvania. this is somerset, pennsylvania, already about three to four inches on the ground. this is only an hour outside of pittsburgh. and already we have 23,000 people without power, and number will grow today. one other concern is the airports. yesterday it was nightmare at the airports in the northeast with all the heavy rain. we still have delays this morning. the airports will try to do some catch-up today. but 45 minutes right now in philadelphia. so far, so good at the new york airports and up towards logan. most of the heavy rain has shifted northward into maine, but the white is the snow that continues from rochester southward. buffalo, new york, still warm enough for all rain to you. eventually today you'll go over to snow. even pittsburgh will see a period of snow.

with a possibility of 1-3 inches on the grass. but looks like the heaviest snow totals in the higher terrain just to the east of buffalo and pittsburgh. so by april standards, this is an historic late, late spring snowstorm. forecast for today, northeast, on and off rainshowers. middle of the country, beautiful. hot out west. near 100 today from phoenix all the way up towards las vegas. and we should see dry weather for all of the rest of the country. the only trouble, right there in new england, and especially western p.a. and western new york. good luck in the snow today. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. clu ♪ ♪

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joe." the united states and afghan governments have reached an agreement that they are going to ensure american involvement in afghanistan for at least a decade beyond the 2014 date when we're supposed to get out. we'll be there forever. >> it's called a, quote, strategic partnership, agreed upon after months of intense negotiations and includes general guidelines for u.s. military and financial assistance without going into exact details. however, u.s. officials estimate that the united states could spend roughly $2.7 billion annually to maintain the afghan security forces with more money going to aid for the people. the u.s. will also maintain a presence of u.s. special forces as well as military trainers in the country. officials hope the deal will serve as reassurance to the afghan people that the united states won't walk away from the partnership, and also a warning

to the taliban that they won't be able to simply wait out the 2014 withdrawal. joining us now, acclaimed journalist and documentary film maker ben anderson. he is the author of the new book "no worse enemy: the inside story of the chaotic struggle for afghanistan." ben, good to have you. >> and more on importantly, a big footy fan. where are you from? >> middlesboro. >> he was impressed with my man city purse. >> maybe. ok. so "no worse enemy." explain the title. >> well, it's basically referring to the marines. but basically it's referring to the taliban, the policy, and that sums up what i've seen there the past five years. >> what is our worst enemy in afghanistan right now? >> i think the policy. i don't think it can work because it's persuading afghans to pick sides between us, and our allies, and the taliban. >> they know we're going to leave. >> and the forces we are trying

to introduce to the south, they are historical enemies. it's not a national army. it's the northern alliance. the police are feared and hated in the south and for good reason. 90% of crime in helmand province is commented by the police. we are trying to introduce them to the population as the good news. it's no wonder that the pashtuns are saying, if you want us to choose between the taliban and these guys, we choose the taliban. >> well, because we know you're going to leave, and the taliban will still be here. even though they hate the taliban. >> they don't all hate the taliban. the taliban in the south are not the taliban of 2001. they are just angry local farmers who want the foreigners and the corrupt afghan government out of their backyard. that's who we're fighting. >> you say the taliban are angry local farmers. i had somebody very high up in the united states government tell me a year ago that the taliban are just pissed off pashtuns, and they have been there since the time of alexander the great and they will be there long after we

leave. so how do we win that war? >> well, you don't win it by enforcing an unwanted -- to them, the northern alliance, who control the police, the army, and the intelligence. and i think the biggest mistake we made was in the rush to iraq, we handed control of the police, the army, and intelligence to the northern alliance. the historical enemies of the taliban and the southern pashtuns. that guaranteed the taliban's role in afghanistan was going to be as fighters, not playing a constructive role in the future of afghanistan. which i think many of them were willing to do at that point. that was the big mistake. and since 2006 on, we were doomed to fail because of that. >> ok. so we are where we are. and the question is, what do we do now? the easy simple thing, which i think joe probably would support, is just pull out. leave them to themselves. the same as the soviets, same as the british, and so on. is that the right answer or is there a better way to work through this? >> i think we need to try and negotiate a peace deal before we pull out. it looks like there could be an all-out civil war between the taliban and the afghan

government. when the russians pulled out, the government healld on for the years before there was all-out war. i think that's a dream scenario now for president obama compared to what is going on now. >> you say 2014. 2014 slips to 2015 slips to 2017 because no president is going to ever want to be responsible for, quote, losing afghanistan. what we have been saying for some time is it's already lost. the second we decided to change our goal from killing terrorists to rebuilding a country that had never been built before, we had lost the battle. so it can't be done in one year. but we certainly need to expedite it. >> but to that point and to the point she made before, what's the real probability of negotiating a peace agreement at any point? is that realistic goal? >> at the minute, it looks increasingly unlikely. but that is the best-case scenario. and that's a humiliating failure. if you said to people in 2001 after 11 years of fighting, maybe $600 million spent, 17,000

lives lost in total, the best we can hope for is a peace deal with the taliban, people would have said you're insane. but the that's the situation we are in now. >> talk a little bit about pakistan. we often talk about these things as if they are in different boxes when in fact they are not. >> i think it's a war where our enemy has got more advantages than probably any other war in history, the main one being where they have this safe haven in pakistan. and that will continue forever. that border which the british drew up -- >> we appreciate that. >> yeah. >> and it worked very well, like most of that in theory. >> well done. >> but that's a safe haven where they can retrain. and the night raids and the drone strikes has killed a lot of the taliban leadership, and the guys replacing those guys are the more radical guys. and i think that's made the problem worse as well. i have been in south where a peace deal locally could have

been done. but because the younger guys that have been trained or educated in pakistan have come in and taken over, it's become even less likely. >> that's interesting. >> so this book has a very raw look at what's going on over there. a lot of which i can't read on television. but one of the guys that you profile talks about this being likened to vietnam. and a quote here, our families know what's going on. people in the military know. but the general population doesn't. america is not at war. america is at the mall. no one f'ing cares . the average american doesn't f'ing know when people die over here. there is a frustration, is there not, that no one gets it, no one can sympathize or even understand or even feel what we are putting our men and women through. day after day. >> i'm amazed by how little it seems to come up in conversation here. i was with five marines in my last trip to afghanistan. they had 35 people killed, 140

seriously injured. and i'm talking double, triple, and quite a few quadruple amputees, and it's not even on the radar here. it's stunning. people just want the troops out, and that's all they want to know. that's about their curiosity ends. >> and it sounds like you think that the most likely scenario is that we get out, and the same thing happens that happened after the soviets left and after the british left. >> and maybe quicker than it happened after the soviets left. the new agreement that just was reached, i don't see a change in the plan. it seems to be combat troops. >> changeover we are calling it? >> i think it's about saving face. i think it's about leaving and not making it look too bad. >> well, that's what this has been about. this is what this has been about since 2008, 2009. it's been about saving face. and that's one of the things that, you know, people wonder why we talk about it every day. because we all knew in 2009. you could triple the number of troops. but it just wasn't going to make a difference in the end. it was -- again, it's just about

presidents not wanting to be responsible, like winston churchill famously saying that, you know, the british empire's flag is not going to go down on my watch. this is the equivalent of that. >> there are bad consequences of us pulling out. especially evera the qur'an burnings, i think the consequences of us staying is even worse. there is no good solution. it's just damage limitation i think at this point. >> the book is "no worse enemy." ben anderson, thank you so much. >> thank you, ben. ahead in the next hour, sebastian junger, the author of "war," will be here. we'll continue the conversation on "morning joe."

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let's do some sports. yesterday, not a very meta world peaceful day in the nba. lakers and thunder in l.a. artest with the nice finish and then he finishes this one with an elbow to the side of the head of james harden. he said he was just celebrating but not everybody celebrates that day. later diagnosed with a

concussion, did not return to the game, of course. meta world peace got a fly grant two foul, is thrown out of the game. the game it did continue, double overtime, tied 104-104. and, who else, kobe posting up from about 22 feet out, hits the jumper. 114-106. after the game meta world peace talked about that shot to the head of james harden. >> i got real emotional, real excited and it was unfortunate that james had to get hit with an unintentional elbow. and i hope he's okay, you know. they're laying for a championship this year, so i really hope he's okay and i apologize to james harden, such a great game and it was unfortunate. so much emotion was going on. >> no word yet on the suspension. he'll certainly hear from david stern's office today. ron are artest, of course, no stranger to this kind of thing. suspended 86 games in 2004.

>> for a taunting incident? >> are for his role in that brawl where they went up in the stands. people who paid to come and watch. >> i any this case, though, seriously, david stern needs to -- needs to keep him out the rest of the season. >> he will. >> and into the playoffs. you think he will? >> i think he should and i think he will. >> the season is basically over. on friday -- >> i don't think we need to do this. >> the yankees spoiled the 100th anniversary -- >> i don't think it's necessary. >> a 6-2 win over the sox. the yankees rallied to win 15-9. >> look at that scoreboard. of course cuts out the next inning where they score six. kind of tells the whole story. >> in our next story. didn't quite work. 8:00 hour we'll get that story. mike barnicle, if you didn't see this last hour, tweeting yesterday, dear god, i've tried to lead a good life. never asked for much.

begging you for a downpour. rained out last night and postponed. >> and, again, i want to say what we said last hour, the fact boston fans are so who hostile towards bobby valentin and blaming him for the bad results in april, this is the same team that had a historic collapse. this is theo epstein's team, theo epstein's bull pen, pitching staff, theo epstein's lineup. this is still on theo epstein. >> going to play until september. >> and, by the way, guess what, are it's the same team that's going to play well in may, june, and july, they're going 0 to get some of the players back who were injured, get their pitchers back. they're going to do well. listen, willie, they have big bull pen problems -- >> huge. >> but they're going to have -- and, by the way, they have great news on sunday. their starting pitcher put in

s six, seven really good innings, a young guy from pawtucket. i'm not sweating it. i'm saying the fans that are kick i kicking bo bobby around need to relax. >> when we got there thursday night ahead of our show, i put on the sports channel. >> don't do that. >> felger and mazz and the sky was falling. bobby v. has lost his fastball, the game has passed him by, the wp -- >> better watch out for bobby. >> and by the way, the seats are too small at fenway. it was great. big news, also, in baseball, better news over the weekend. saturday fiphilip humber pitche the 21st perfect game in the history of major league baseball. a little drama. the final strike, it's 3-2. >> what happened? >> this is the last out of the game. skips away. a.j. pierzynski throws to first to complete the perfect game. but a replay shows that might have been a checked swing. what the heck? >> and, by the way, by the way,

he didn't go around but if the batter had actually run to first base -- >> he wouldn't have made it anyway. that was a 3-2 count, probably should have walked on the no-hitt no-hitter. >> what's tomorrow, willie? >> i'm not finished talking sports. >> we are. >> the red sox are up by five, they cut over, rightly, to see the red sox, and they come back and it's like -- >> that was it. do you think it snapped the spell? a franchise crusher. might have to shut down operations. >> we may. why is it that saturday's game seemed like the second 100 years at fenway? >> how is this for a combination madeleine albright. >> you know, they helped broker a peace plan. still impacts our world today. if you are one of the millions of men

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i would consider it but i doubt i'll get a call, and i don't know if it's the right thing for me to do. i didn't run for president for similar kind of reasons. >> i think i would demand reconsideration and send mr. romney a list of people i think could suit better. >> we have a nominee now, and

our nominee, mitt romney, the leader of the republican party, has a vice presidential process in place. and i think from this point moving forward, i think it would be wise for all republicans to kind of respect that process. good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set jon meacham. >> financier steve ratner. >> that's what he is, steve ratner. >> what about vp? >> he would talk. >> he would talk about it. i mean, that's what's going to happen. it's jeb bush. >> they have to talk. come on. somebody calls you. >> it'll be good. it'll be good. >> put florida in the column. romney is terrible in the south. that would be something. >> that would be something. it would pick back up our american democratic dynastic theme where a bush or clinton would be back on the ticket, thank god. >> there was a year. >> it's one cycle. >> one cycle where there hasn't

been a bush or a clinton since 1980. >> what's the calculation for jeb bush if he wants to be president? he his mitt romney may lose, does this hurt him at all? >> no, no. right now it gets him out of the shadow of his older brother who, you know, jeb would have been the guy running for president in 2000 if he'd won in '94 against lawton chiles. and so it allows him, win or lose, to go out and prove that he's not his brother. >> you mentioned one of the great what ifs. it's like if ford had gotten on the ticket in 1980, what would have happened to the bush family. chiles hadn't done that late bush and jeb had won -- >> the last three days, if jeb had fought back -- because lawton went out and said a lot of outrageous things. >> medicare, wasn't it? >> he said jeb was going to cut medicare and social security as a governor. they did all these midnight calls. it was the sleaziest. it was a lot of push polling

back before push polling was going on but lawton's people called around and said do you know that jeb bush was going to cut your medicare and social security? that would be a neat trick for governor, but that changed history. because there is no doubt in anybody's mind inside or outside the bush family if jeb had won in '94 and he lost the last day because of that hast push, that one day, the big what if if, jeb would have been president in 2000. >> our top story could tell you why this might not even be worth talking about. >> really? >> yeah. >> that's not a very affirming thing. >> it's a negative passive aggression transition. so let's get to the news. this week mitt romney and president obama continue to crisscross through swing states. the president has scheduled stops in north carolina, iowa and colorado. romney continues on a two-day push through pennsylvania. and while there are still plenty of reasons for americans to be concerned about the economy, an ap analysis of unemployment numbers is pointing to why the president's numbers are improving in 14 key swing states.

among the states the ap highlighted florida has seen 1.7% decrease from a year ago. in ohio unemployment has dropped 1.3% in the past year and 1.6% drop in nevada. despite this apparent good news the economic situation still remains grim for the president. the current national average for unemployment remains at 8.2%. this analysis comes as mitt romney and president obama's teams are sharpening their campaign messages ahead of november's general election. >> the road we're on has a president who has to recognize that he's failed. he has to understand that he hasn't created the jobs that he spoke about in denver. instead of taking responsibility and acknowledging what he's done wrong, he casts about looking for someone else to blame. he tries to divide the american people. that's what we're in for. you're going to see one person after the other castigated.

this is a president who is dividing america. >> a lot of republicans in congress want to cooperate, know better, but they're in this reign of terror. i think these folks will recognize when they lose this election that was the wrong path to take. >> one of the opinion pieces today points out that mitt romney did one of those speeches in ohio at a dry wall plant that actually closed during the bush administration. but, anyhow, the criticism by the republican party -- >> that's all you've got? that's all you've got? >> what's his team doing? it's ridiculous. >> that's all you've got? >> that's pretty good actually. >> let's talk, first of all, we were -- there was an ap story that said, steve ratner, and a lot of the swing states, you have really good news or pretty good news when it comes to unemployment. a lot like 1980 when we talked about 1980 when you had a lot of

bad news for jimmy carter, the industrial midwest was doing worse than the rest of the country and so carter just lost all of those swing states. looks like it's going the other direction this year. >> well, remember a couple of things. first of all, you have to have the age-old debate about whether the trend or the absolute level is more the determinant of what happens on election day. the trend as you just saw is quite favorable in a state like michigan which i guess we don't consider a swing state anymore. it's dropped to under 10%. i think it's one of the fastest drops in the country. i think every one of those states weigh just looked at and pretty much all the states still have unemployment above the national average. >> except ohio. ohio is below. >> it's trend versus level. it's moving in the right direction. that's the argument. >> in hiohio john kasich, a republican governor who has not done great over the past couple of years, he sees the

unemployment rate go down. when they go to the polls, who do they give credit to? is it to the governor? is it to the president? >> the president is obviously going to take a lot of credit for the so-called manufacturing revival. i wouldn't yet call -- again, it's a question of trend and level. manufacturing is well off the bottom and there have been a lot of manufacturing jobs added in the last year and the president, as you know, spent a lot of time in the midwest trying to take credit for that. >> the bashing of the g 0 op. go ahead. >> well, the criticism of the republican party isn't just limited to it democrats. last night former presidential candidate jon huntsman ripped into the gop at an event in new york city comparing the party to communist china. saying, quote, this is what they do in china on party matters. if you talk off script. huntsman was referring to being disinvited to a republican fund-raiser after he called for a third party movement on "morning joe." the former governor of utah commented on the republican

party stance towards china stopping short of directly criticizing mitt romney instead of a broad swipe at republicans saying, quote, i don't know what world these people are living in. and when asked if he could win the nomination of the republican party in utah today, huntsman said he could not, adding later that ronald reagan would likely not be able to win the gop nomination in this political climate. >> these are things you can say at the 92nd street "y" that you can't say in iowa, in the snows of iowa. >> it's not exactly the orange koucount y. >> john n is just fine, thank y >> warren hatch, they had this nominating process. warren hatch needed 60% to avoid a primary, and he got 59%, which is close but no cigar. and i guess this is the first time he's run in a contested primary since 1976. >> the lesson of this, him and

senator lugar, would be that not since henry clay had a primary. both lugar and hatch. a lot of old lions facing changing electorates but, you know, every 36 years or so like clock work, i mean k-- >> just like clock work. willie, a lot of people are saying this is the end of the republican party as we know it. maybe it is. warren hatch seems pretty conservative to me. but apparently not conservative enough. he had about a million dollars dumped in from outside conservative groups. >> he's getting a lot of heat from the tea party. i think i would challenge him on the idea that ronald reagan could not win the republican nomination this time around. >> i don't think that's true. >> we've heard that a lot. the party has gone so far right even ronald reagan, the standard-bearer, couldn't win a nomination in this climate. >> it was funny. i can't remember what year, maybe '98-'99 pbs did a very, i

think, balanced and even warm documentary about reagan that sort of saved face for liberals to say he wasn't satanic. i think what people are doing is reacting to the post presidential image of reagan. remember, most -- a lot of the establishment press, a lot of democrats still thought reagan was awful all the way to the end. >> oh, my lord. >> a nuclear cowboy to being -- >> the fact that you have people now that are democrats who say, oh, ronald reagan was reasonable, go back and read what anthony lewis and "the new york times" wrote about ronald reagan. go back and read what the editorial board of "the new york times" wrote about ronald reagan. go back and read what -- i mean, my god, seriously? if somebody decided to just write a book on slanderous

quotes against ronald reagan throughout the 1980s by the people now who are saying, you know, he was a reasonable republican, that would be a fun book. >> but what a read. >> what do you think about that argument that ronald reagan wouldn't recognize his own party? >> very simple. and we go back to father pat buchanan, monsignor pat buchanan, and this is the way you should look at it. he always talked about political athletes, barack obama was a great political athlete, hillary clinton a great political athlete. in 2012 the conservatives were the clunkers that didn't run before. ate a big mac and smoked a cigarette. and mitt romney, he wasn't flashy, but the moderate had year had the best 0 operation, was best in the debates and was the best political athlete which, again, is not saying a

whole lot. if you have a conservative that was a good political athlete, that conservative would win today and frame the issues the way he or she wanted to frame the issues and the liberals would still be calling them crazy and right wing and dangerous and, my god, why couldn't they have been like, you know, ronald reagan was when we were calling him a fascist, the fascist gun in the west. because the things -- >> i think the things governor huntsman were talking about, were all when he was governor of california. raising taxes, liberal abortion law, all of that was clearly in the record. to joe's point, he was able to project an image. you knew his principles and we knew what made him a great president is you knew he had a coherent vision. he departed from dogma to govern and that's what makes the president great. >> and, by the way, it's not like mitt romney would have been it the right of ronald reagan.

we elected a guy that was pro choice, pro-gun control, was more liberal than ted kennedy, was the architect of nationalized health care. at one point went after john kasich for being against collective bargaining. i mean, we've elected a guy that's not a kfb by a long shot. so these arguments reagan couldn't even win this year, kind much of misses the point of who actually did win this year. >> yeah, i think reagan was your classic small government conservative in terms of what he ran on and trade to govern on 0 recognizing that he had to compromise, cut taxes, shrink government, aggressive anti-communist foreign policy. >> when we come back, author of the acclaimed best-selling book "war" sebastian junger joins us to talk about his new project, helping his colleagues in the war zone. also ahead, imbalance of power. how thousands of companies have suddenly become more powerful

than most countries. but first to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? good morning, everyone. you just knew the winter wasn't going to be over. usually we get one little surprise snowstorm in april. and today that surprise is areas of western new york and western pennsylvania. we are seeing leaves on the trees, the big storm moved up the east coast and now it's stalling out over southern portions of new york. cold air all the way down. it snowed in the mountains of have virginia and west virginia right now. we picked up a couple inches in pennsylvania and the finger lakes of new york. and now that snow is making its way into buffalo and a little later today into pittsburgh. so that's the travel trouble spots today. how much snow are we talking? this is impressive by april standar standards. the higher terrain of western new york up to a foot. 6 inches in the higher terrain of pennsylvania. buffalo itself around 3-6 inches by the time this is all said and

done tomorrow morning. i don't want to forget our friends on the west coast waking up where it's early. you had an incredibly hot day yesterday. 105, record heat in phoenix. in all 50 record highs were set across the west. so another warm day in the west. an absolutely beautiful, gorgeous day in the middle of the country. the southeast breezy and cool. the only travel trouble is what we showed you there with the snow in western portions of new york. hopefully that's the last time i mention that four-letter word. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity,

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we're going to have a hard time with that. joining us now award winning journalist and best-selling author of the book on afghanistan "war." sebastian junger joins us so once again great to have you back on the show. >> thank you. >> i want to to start with what you're doing for this course for journalists chls i love it. how to help them cover combat zones in a more deeply helpful way on a number of levels. >> and of course you're doing this in large part in memory of tim. >> yes. my friend tim lost his life about a year ago in misrata, libya. he bled out from a shrapnel wound and the journalists around him didn't really know what to do. they'd had no medical training. most of war reporting is done by freelancers. and none of us have any medical training. and so i thought i should just start an organization that trains freelancers.

>> so, tim, you believe that tim's death was avoidable? >> possibly avoidable. he bled out and so there's an absolute chance that had someone intervened -- he was minutes from a hospital. all they had to do was slow down the bleeding. no one knew how to do that. so i've start add training course once a year in new york, once a year in london, with once a year in beirut, only for freelance freelancers. it is paid for. we just had our first one up in the bronx. >> how is the response? >> it's been great. i mean, we have 100 people on our waiting list and we just need to raise more money. >> it's called risk? >> reporters instructed in saving colleagues. >> and how do people find out more about it? >> risctraining.risctraining.or. there's a donate button and we have a description of what we do and we have the support of the

freelance community. >> do it. help out. >> we had anderson on. talk i talking about all of your contacts, all the men who were there before and are there now. what's the feeling on the ground? >> it's tragic. the war was -- personally i think the war was winnable and i think it was mishandled from the beginning. i think iraq was a big distraction and right now everyone is just watching the clock knowing we're going to leave. and i think we can leave in a good way or a bad way. >> what's a good way? >> well -- >> yeah. >> that's the complicated way, i guess. we have to -- we can't let that country fall just back into civil war because then we go right back to 1996 when i first went will. i think we've to continue to support the government. what i don't understand, i've never heard this talked about. we're not fighting the afghans. pear fighting the southern part of the country. i don't understand why we don't just pull out of that area and

say if if you cross this line, we'll kill you, and let them sort it out. i don't think they like the taliban very much anymore either. so i don't 0 understand why that wouldn't work. >> this is one of the things i brought up with ben who said some of the taliban are popular in the southern part of the country but nationwide the taliban is more unpopular in most places than the u.s. >> oh, absolutely. >> which is saying a lot right now after ten years of war. >> the reason a young afghan in kandahar would join the taliban is there are u.s. traps or foreign troops in his town. if you remove that provocation, i think most of the war goes away. i don't understand why it's not being done. >> the question of national security interest at this point, aside from protecting what we've done, so-called, what do you think that interest is? >> well, if we hadn't been in afghanistan, we never would have killed bin laden. we absolutely decimated al

qaeda. so i think going forward -- >> i mean now. >> i mean, going forward i think we've accomplished a lot of what we need to accomplish in terms of national security. i think there's a broader, sort of moral issue about leaving a country that we called an ally to just decimate itself. and so at this point how do we protect those sort of moral interests without it costing us in blood? >> do you believe the anti-terror campaign, terrorism is never defeated, but would you consider that largely successful at this point? >> we haven't been attacked in ten years. no one imagined that would be true ten years ago, so, you know, just by the sort of numbers, i would say we did p t pretty well. there have been attacks in other countries but not in this country. i don't know. i think we've done pretty well but i don't think we can completely drop the whole issue. >> right. >> so let's talk about some of the impact this war has had on the men and women who have gone there for repeat tours of duty. the lead opinion in "the new

york times" sunday review ent entitled why are we drugging our soldiers by a professor of psychiatry at cornell medical college and it deals with the p it tsd issues, the prevalence of prescribing active duty soldiers medications, stimulants in many cases. the study implies that soldiers exposed to elevated norepinephrine levels from taking stimulants are also at risk of relapse when reexposed to the initial stressor. because the treatment involves unlearning fear responses, soldiers exposed to stimulants during trauma could be more resistant to treatment. there are other factors that might play an important role like in a brain injury which is a known risk factor for the disorder and growing steadily during these wars. still, it's an open question whether the use of stimulants in combat does more good than harm. the next step should be a rigorous epidemiologic study of

a possible link between stimulants and ptsd in our troops. and the numbers are staggering, those being treated with medications. it's becoming a cycle, almost as if we're losing a generation. >> i think this happens in every war. the people who are fighting this war now were 9, 10 years old on 9/11. >> can you imagine? >> they were kids. they were just kids. the military solves short-term problems because they're the most urgent and they figure out the long-term effects and i'm sure that's what will happen now. >> think about that. if we leave in 2014, which we won't leave in 2014, but if we leave in 2014, even in 2014 an 18 ye 18-year-old that goes 0 over to serve in afghanistan was in k d kindergarten when the war began. >> and he's fighting a kid who was that age.

>> we're fighting it in this war. >> it doesn't make any sense anymore. now we have the news today about sort of the extended period of time that we're going to be doing other efforts to help afghanistan. >> another decade. >> after 2014. what did you think when you saw that headline cross? >> i think they are trying to figure out a middle way where it's not full-on war but it's not -- >> ben anderson called it saving face. >> yeah. it's partly saving face, but i think it also is partly an awareness that if we simply walk out and shut the door, afghanistan implodes again. and obviously that's hard on them but it's also not in the interests of the world. >> it sounds like, again, considering that you were there back in '96, it sounds like a worst case scenario for you, just pulling the plug and leaving the afghanistan people, the afghans, to the devices of the taliban. >> yeah. i mean, here is the thing.

in the '70s it was a fresher but relatively stable country. it was as stable as pakistan, for example, right now. the soviets really sort of broke humpty dumpty and now they're in this cycle of violence and something like 400,000 applicants, civilian casualties in the 1990s during the civil war, enormous numbers. since 9/11, the decade nato has been in afghanistan, something like 10,000 civilian casualties. it will probably go back up to 400,000. >> and you've actually said before the past decade has been the best decade for the after fwans in quite some time. >> as rugged as it is over there right now, the '90s were completely hellish. so people have cell poens. the number of children in school has gone up seven fold. a third of them are girls. there's economic development. kabul is not recognizable. it's a city, a real city. so you want to leave without

jeopardizing all of that. that's just not in the interests of humanity. how do you do it? i don't know. i don't know how but that's the goal. >> again, to underline the facts, civilian deaths down from 400,000 in the '90s under soviet occupation to 10,000 now. >> we appreciate your continued reporting on the story. again, for more information on sebastian's training program for war reporters go to risctraining.org. that's risc with a "c." sebastian junger, thank you so much. we appreciate everything you do. countries versus corporations up next. who has the upper hand in the growing power struggle? editor at large of foreign policy magazine joins us next on "morning joe." ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe" a live look at capitol hill at 33 past the hour. the ceo and editor at large of "policy" magazine, david is the author of a new book "power incorporated" the epic rivalry between big business and

government and the reckoning that lies ahead. >> so, david, let's start with a couple of facts here. first of all, let me just ask you, i'm curious because here is a question willie and i were asking ourselves watching the red sox game over it at the holiday inn. who has more people, mcdonald's or estonia? >> well, not only does mcdonald's but if you add in the families of the mcdonald's employees and the people who supply mcdonald's, the group gets bigger and pigger. companies like walmart, more people than dozens of countries. >> and of course a fact that shocked willie and i even more was the fact that goldman sachs is has more cash reserves than the you're peb central bank. >> and black rock has more assets under management than china has in its reserves and it has more reserves than anybody. >> are you shocked willie and i

were just talking about this? >> they were chatting about it. >> i imagine during the red sox game you were looking for a way -- >> david, i put up just a couple of facts just to, first of all, get people to understand the big picture here. but talk about the impact on our economy, on our country, on our world that a lot of corporations really are amassing more power than smaller countries across the globe. >> well, here in the country, you see it in a variety of ways. they've managed over the course of a couple hundred years to gain rights only given to certain people. during its first 50 years most of the cases brought before the supreme court were to get those rights for corporations. citizens united is another ex example of how they are acquiring rights that people don't have. in a system where politics is driven by money, where big

economic actors can write the biggest checks, they tart having more and more influence. >> and underline this fact the past three years we've heard a lot about too big to fail. we've talked about it in real time on this program kay in and day out. how remarkable that too big to fail has gotten even bigger. now you've got four or five banks that have amassed over 50% of the transactions in america. >> well, it would be remarkable except that it's completely understandable. >> why? >> if they're writing the checks, if they're the ones determining what's happening, you get things like dodd frank, which are kind of fake financial reform. they didn't go to that issue, to debt relative if i was issue. they didn't go to the heart issues and they leave us as precariously perched or worse than we were before the last president. >> we're worse. >> i think so the derivatives are doing risky activities.

europe is a time bomb. if something happens in spain and it knocks off the bank in europe and that knocks off a bank here, do you think somebody in washington is going to go and step in and bail out that bank in this environment? >> so if that happens now, people will ask the question, my god, after 2008, didn't we fix that? how could we not have fixed it? so what's the clear answer? why did we not fix something everyone knows is a problem? >> the check writers are determining are who the law writers are, then you don't fix the system. >> in this case who are the check writers? >> the check writers are wall street. obama -- by the way, it's bipartisan. obama took more money interest wall street than any candidate in history. now 92 cents out of every dollar being written by a candidate is going to romney. they're playing both sides of the track. the notion that somehow it's not going to be connected to outcomes political play is ly i. >> it is naive. >> talk about your subtitle, given what you said and

intuitively people think there's not a rivalry between big business and government. >> i saw this moment and said how far back does this go? i go back even 1,000 years. for a lot of the time the rivalry between business and government was like the rivalry between church and state before that. what's happened here in the united states is that corporations have co-opted a lot of the power of government. that's kind of part of the rivalry. the twist is we're not the only game in town as far as capitalism is concerned. so was it the application of the 14th amendment? what's the turning point? >> well, the turning point is very near the beginning -- the decision early in the 19th se century said once you write a charter, you can't mettle with the charter. this is daniel webster's fault. jefferson, lincoln, theodore roosevelt, franklin roosevelt, woodrow wilson, all said too much concentration of power in the hands of too few people will

undo democracy. >> i was going to ask you, is this time parallel? the reason why capital flies across borders so quickly, people can make so much money so quickly and can amass so much power so quickly, is because of the i.t. revolution. is there a direct parallel with what t.r., teddy roosevelt, dealt with after the beginning of the industrial revolution? >> i go back a little further. after the civil war, we had a national economy and businesses like standard oil stepped in and took advantage of the tact that we didn't have laws to regulate that economy. now we have a global economy and we don't have regulatory mechanisms on the global stage. >> don't you think -- don't you see this as an adjustment in time government figured out how to deal with the excesses of the trust and t.r. broke them up. don't you see over the next decade this government wrestling --

>> the problem is how do you wres with it on the global stage? if you say we have to cede sovereignty upwards, that's the third rail. you're done. >> this it book is important. i want to ask you in the newest issue of "foreign policy" magazine there's an article that talks about the kashg rcharacte of the war on women in the middle east and what they share with the war on women in the u.s. can you explain that? >> well, the whole issue looks at the war on women around the world and we talk about a war on women in the u.s. which is important but it's small ball compared to what's going on in places like the middle east and there are some articles, one by mona in this upcoming issue that are extremely important and hard to read, "a," because of how they reveal the really pathological situation that exists in the middle east with regard to women but, also, raises some questions. you were talk iing about

afghanistan in the earlier, what's going to happen to those we leave behind? that's on our head now. it's not going to be a pretty picture. and so this issue -- >> it's horrific, actually. >> it's horrific and it's likely to get worse because what are we seeing across the middle east in iraq and afghanistan, in turkey, probably in egypt before too long is a move towards strong men which we are going to embrace because we don't want to have anything to do with the region. >> you're saying turkey. >> i think you are drifting towards autocracy in turkey. they think everything will be fine. but at the end of the day throughout the region we are becoming more tolerant of less democracy. >> do you think that's an islamic strong man or strong man put up by the army in turkey? >> i think in turkey he's playing to both bases because you have to play to both bases. i think we in the united states

have to ask what's the price we're paying for disengagement, for pulling out? are we willing to go back to '60s style where we say we don't care who is putting a lid on the situation, we'll take a bad guy, put the lid on the situation and move on and then, you know, we saw what happened in a lot of those cases, very, very bad situation. >> all right. >> the book is "power incorporated." david rothkopf thank you so much. good to have you on the show. >> even between the covers it's good. >> good tease. coming up, shares of walmart taking a hit amid allegations of high level bribery in mexico. we'll have that story in business before the bell next on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this is corporate caterers, miami, florida.

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welcome back. this morning a watchdog group is calling for a full investigation into bribery charges by top walmart executives in mexico to build stores and dominate the retail business across the country. let's go right to cnbc's brian sullivan live at cnbc global headquarters. brian? >> reporter: if you're a walmart executive this morning, this is not breakfast in america for you. this is a very bad day for you because here is the story. basically 2005 a lawyer for walmax, the walmart subsidiary in mexico, sent is a letter saying, hey, i have proof we've been bribing everybody to build land. basically walmart shut down the investigation. they found that it was true and did their best to squash it. you guys know it is not necessarily what you do, it's generally the cover-up that gets

you in trouble. this is not going to be a good day, good week, good month, or a good year for walmart because it's a big story. there's a lot of commentary this morning about how some very top walmart executives are likely going to be in some very hot water about this story. the latest on walmart, have had a lot of issues legally the last few years. >> and so they actually, i understand, arkansas said go ahead and do the investigation. they do the investigation. they get the results. they find out that everybody has been bribed in mexico. and then there is a battle in arkansas on whether they let this out or not. >> reporter: here's the best part of the story, essential isly the person -- once they uncovered the fact that it was true, right, their fbi investiga investigator, former fayfy guy was like, it's true. the walmart executives in mexico have been bribing everybody 0 to get all of this stuff done. walmart's corporate headquarters

essentially put the head in charge of the investigation into walmart/mexico. so i'm going to investigate myself. i will investigate me eating the cookies. >> and of course when you eat all of our cookies we never put you in charge of that investigation. >> reporter: the smell test, right? >> really quickly, a couple of things, apple stock, what's happened to apple stock and why is it possible that it's going to fall again? >> reporter: listen, apple stock is down nine of ten days. some people are saying, it's a temporary pullback. others are saying, listen, there are reports the latest ipad aren't selling as well as some had hoped. there was some data that maybe iphone sales aren't going to be what they were. the point is apple, which has been the donkey that has pulled the cart is getting a little old maybe in some cases. a little concern on apple. kellogg cut their forecast, speaking of breakfast in america. that was a super tramp

reference. >> we got it the third time you did it. willie, the ipad 3, unfortunately, burning down hous houses. >> i don't know. >> what's the problem? >> is it good? is it better than the last one? >> yeah, but they have to put a fire extinguisher in it. and really quickly, spain officially in a recession. i guess trying to say it's also not breakfast in spain. >> reporter: you're going to kill me about the super tramp stuff. i'm going to have to bring up a new band. i heard willie's favorite is rush. i don't know if that's accurate or not. spain is officially in a recession is. adios. >> brian sullivan, seriously. >> he's great. nobody is better. >> i think he's disturbed. >> that's why -- that's what i mean. >> you know what he does when he gets off the air? he sits down by the wall near the corner in a fetal position and rocks back and forth. he does. >> reporter: you've got web cams, too? >> i just know it.

i know you do. >> thanks so much. >> more "morning joe." >> we have this mika parody coming up. with the capital one cash rewards card you get a 50% annual bonus. and everyone likes 50% more cash -- well, except her. no! but, i'm about to change that. ♪ every little baby wants 50% more cash... ♪ phhht! fine, you try. [ strings breaking, wood splintering ] ha ha. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. ♪ what's in your wallet? ♪ what's in your...your...

look at this. this is orchard park, new york.

just south of buffalo. beautiful spring blooms with a little blizzard to match. >> man. the apocalypse. >> fan ttastic. >> you retweeted a video, a youtube video -- >> i did, yeah. >> you and the kids hang out on the weekend and look at youtube videos. this one came up -- >> it was hysterical. >> you think it's funny? >> and frightening. and hysterical. she's good. >> let's take a look. i don't know who she is. >> what are you saying? are you saying the economy is obama's fault? he cannot be expected to do it all. i'm not even talking to you anymore. what, we're on the air? oh. the government should take from the really wealthy and give to those who, you know, can't afford -- i don't know. obama is wonderful, though. that's all i know. obama is wonderful. he's like a god.

he's like a god. i love obama. >> willie, that's good. >> she's fantastic. >> by the way, t.j. said, just like mika, she puts on the scarf, takes on the scarf. >> slams the cup down. >> actual transcript of our program. >> near the end of the video she takes out a vodka bottle and pours in the coffee cup. i love her. >> tomorrow former secretary of state madeleine albright will be here. also nfl hall of famer, dan marino. very exciting. and up next what, if anything, did we learn today? hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices? sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you

because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. when i lost weight in all the right places. you know what i mean! [ laughs ] when i tried to lose weight other ways, i felt hungry all the time. on weight watchers online, i eat all day long. i loved grabbing those activity points and throwing them into my tracker. and then it adds it up for you at the end of the week so that you can earn more points for food. i never thought that way before. i lost 38 pounds with weight watchers online. i really did it. [ laughs ] [ female announcer ] join for free. offer ends may 12th. weight watchers online. finally, losing weight clicks.

hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second?

it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. welcome back. it's time to talk about what we learned today. off the top, you like parodies of yourself. you tweeted that yesterday. i would not tweet that. >> that was hilarious. she was good, yeah. i know you didn't like it. >> i learned today is the very last day there will ever be professional basketball in the state of new jersey. the new jersey nets owner, it's their last game of the season. i grew up with my can cub scout troop running around watching the game. fare thee well, new jersey nets. >> i learned that we should all donate to sebastian junger -- >> thank you.