expected to finally be out of afghanistan. >> the goal that i set to defeat al qaeda and deny it a chance it rebuilt is now within our reach. international troops will continue to train, advise and assist the afghans, and fight alongside them when needed. but we will not build perpent in bases in this country. nor will we be patrolling at cities and mountains. our goal not to build a country in america's image, our goal is to destroy al qaeda and we are on a path to do exactly that. we must give afghanistan the opportunity to stabilize. otherwise our gains could be lost and al qaeda could establish itself once more. as commander-in-chief, i refuse to let that happen. >> two more years of war, then we get to 2014, where the withdraw starts. have you ten more years of special forces engagement after that. which means americans who are not even alive on september 11th will be participating in a war

that resulted from attack. the details of the deal will be hammered out later this month at flighto meeting in chicago. karzai wants $2 billion, that's a a b, guaranteed from us, the u.s. taxpayers. and karzai could take the money and fund illicit things, not to mention those who use our money and fight against us. the partnership, if you want to call it that, has insurgens, and the taliban announced their spring offensive. remember, even though the war is over and more withdrawing, we are asking our soldiers to fight this summer, next summer and the next summer. a preview of what's to come, came in kabul with a suicide attack from the taliban to launch their spring fighting season. it happened hours after the president left.

i want it start on the military side of the afghan war, with veteran attorney lieu tern ant colonel anthony shafer. so the war ended in vietnam, jack, and yet there you were, as a soldier with other soldiers in a war that didn't exist politically in america. were you at war? >> oh, yeah, we are definitely at war. ways with the vietnamese airborne division. that's after the large majority of -- almost all-american combat forces, conventional units, had been withdrawn from vietnam. i tell you, the attitude, the environment was a heck of a lot different than it had been five years before, six years before when i first went to vietnam and there were more than half a million americans in vietnam at that time and the atmosphere was

very much different in '72. >> what is the difference after soldier fighting a war in its early days where there are clear missions and soldier a decade, two decades into a war that has effectively no mission. >> interest question. the mig was never clear in vietnam during the entire time the americans were there. but i can tell you the mission when i went back it second time was to get out. and it had a certain resemblance to what is happening right now. in the very beginning when americans first went there, it was clear what we were trying to do. trying to clear the enemy. but by '72, we were trying to get the vietnamese to fight the war on our own but we knew we were going home. it is interesting when we first went there, you had the attitude that it wasn't going to happen to you, we were going to fight, fight for each other, did a great job. and the smaller the number ever people, and the clarity with

which we are getting out, it changes your attitude dramatically. you really want to get home as quickly as possible before the bullet with your number hits you. >> tony, reconcile for us the cultural problem that is represented by an extended stay that i think jack just capture sewed perfectly. either you are there to win or not get killed. if you're not there to win, then by def zidefinition you are the to not get killed. beyond that, what is the mission? in other words, as we look at our goal as a country. 2 billion to karzai, pay for the army and all the things we pay for. the reason we doring it is because we are of the belief that paying for these things will provide long standing peace and national security. reconcile these decisions with that goal. >> let me say, when i was there, as jack pointed out, we were on the offensive. taken to the enemy.

on the offensive. and i think jack will agree, we do well on the offensive, we do not do well on the defensive mode. we went to pakistan. with that, the culture is changed. we are held back. if you look at the elements of this agreement dylan, we are held with one arm tied behind our back. so the culture and attitude changes. the more you hold people back, the more they are diminished to do anything except take care of themselves. we can't do night raids any more. cross border operation we did cannot be done in this new agreement. talks about transparency and to eliminate corruption. come on, give mae break. you think it'll magically change evernight p ? jack is completely right. the fabric of the future will not be like '03 when we were going after the enemy. >> that is where the culture obviously breaks down. tony and jack, we'll be back shortly, as we want it bring the

mega panel into this conversation to give us a little political evaluation. they are here as -- and america's great el alley in this grand war against terror as we go into yet another decade of it, or two. your thoughts on the politics of this and how they reconcile with you. >> well, we are your best ally, britain. we give you cash, blood, if that's what you want. so we will still be with you in 2024. but here is the thing, the british couldn't find a solution in afghanistan. the soviets couldn't find a solution in afghanistan. there will be no american solution in afghanistan. we can't have a look at the national intelligence estimates, classified information. but you know what? i bet there is no clear solution in those nies. what are we doing? confused. >> the question, jonathan, that

comes up, is how much of the decision making a the this point is strategic military decision maybing, and how much of the decision making is strategic political decision making? and no one ultimately, that's in the eye of the beholder. it is an unanswerable question. but i feel like you get some guidance by the degree that there a mission. okay that must be military strategy, there is a mission. when there is ambiguity, then you wonder what role politics is playing. how do you dissect this? >> there are a few things going on here. politically, the president -- >> or any president. >> or any president thz this is not this president. >> right. a president is in office conducting a war that his nation can't stand. a war that his nation wants him to stop waging. so that's one of the factors involved here. the other factor, and this gets to the military point, which we are not talking about in any of this, it's pakistan.

that is -- >> of course. >> that's a sub text to all of this. do we want -- we, meaning the united states, we, meaning the world, do we want to have a failed state on the border of pakistan? a nuclear power. >> i guess what anybody would say to you is, no one disputes that pakistan thing. we will talk -- you say, why don't we have a pakistan strategy and how -- in other words, so great, pakistan is a problem but we don't have a pakistan strategy, we have an afghanistan strategy -- >> that we know of. >> that we know of. and there is a failed state. so the fear of a failed state in afghanistan, we needn't fear it. afghanistan has always been a failed state. how do you dissect the politics of this? >> well, i think imagen is right. it is place where empires go to die. both the receive soviets and brits. there is one thing to point out, the last 20 years or modern

afghanistan history, in which there was something resembling history is taliban. they weren't good guys but they were a unifying force for a few years. they got too cozy with al qaeda, that can't happen. i take some optimistic view on this, given the president's explicit discussion of discussions with the taliban. i guess as question, that i throw out to the panel and to both tony and jack, is there any scenario in which there can be political stability in afghanistan without a taliban at the table? and i think the president, at least, has publicly acknowledged it has to be part of the question. >> can i hit that real quick? >> please. >> northern ireland peace process in my book, that's the answer. northern ireland was finally resolved when the irish republic quit giving made, comfort and safe haven to the ira. the same thing has to be done in

pakistan with the isi. if you are not in the process, taliban are not in the process, you atake the process. so i agree with that premise. we have to find a path back to reconciling the taliban. so we got find a path it reconcile this. we can do it but obviously pakistan has to be the most critical piece of the puzzle to push it forward. >> jack jacobs, is there any part of military strategy that says engaging in strategic murder n and assassination of identified insurgeant targets is the best path towards inclusive political reconciliation? is there any history that shows where aerial drones and special forces and the identification and murder of specific individuals is beneficial towards that northern ireland path that tony is talking about? >> well, the british did it successfully in malaysia. i think that worked. you need a concentrated program. if you are going to win anything, if you are going to gain control over any political

apparatus, it is only by using all of the instruments of policy, economic and political as well as military. and i think killing bad guys is only one part -- you have to do that, but it is only one part of it. to go back talking to the taliban, we are talking to the taliban and i think we need it talk to the taliban but the taliban is not necessarily the unifying force. but i can tell you who is not the unifying force, and that's hamid karzai. >> at the end of the day, how much have a virginia lidivirgin lidity -- okay, we will take a quick break. everybody is on the initiation of the conversation of the role of hamid karzai when we come back. >> there will be difficult days ahead. enormous sacrifices of our men and women are not over. ♪

an accident doesn't have to slow you down... with better car replacement, available only from liberty mutual insurance, if your car is totaled, we give you the money to buy a car that's one model-year newer... with 15,000 fewer miles on it. there's no other auto insurance product like it. better car replacement, available only from liberty mutual. it's a better policy that gets you a better car. call... or visit one of our local offices today, and we'll provide the coverage you need at the right price. liberty mutual auto insurance,

responsibility -- what's your policy?

all right, we're back with our super mega panel. two conversations i want it pick up. one, the ree lliability and necessary reliability and funding and will real deal are resurrounding iran and dealing with pakistan while pretending to deal with afghanistan. first off, car die. >> no, not reliable. >> can he screw us? >> he already has done it. i can't see -- at the moment, there is no alternative for united states. well continue to shovel money to him and it will be to no good end. no, bad guy. >> jack or tony?

why can't we just leave? >> tony, you want it try that. >> why can't we just go? >> we can. i can answer that in two parts. i talked to a commander, four star general, he said, even if we decided to leave tomorrow, it will take us a year to get out of there. we are heading towards the door, it'll take that long because we are very heavy defense department. with that said, there is no reason it stay there, in my estimation, militarily. this is one of the things i take exception to president obama ae comment last night. he is comparing apples to oranges. he is talking about al qaeda, the current diredirector of al qaeda is in pakistan. the aq is focused in yemen and libya. we have to find other places to go after them. we don't have much to do in pakistan other than allowing water to rise to a statural

level. there is nothing there for us now. we are the issue because we are there. the moment we step away, other sides will come into it. frankly, that's what we should do. leave now, declare victory. the president kind of already did it. move smartly on to going into what the president said, prosecuting the war against al qaeda. >> there is a big political component to leaving right now. i think that's one of the independent variables that drives the president to say, we will have a measured draw out and so on. if you look at the plans to withdraw, logistically, we can bailout of there, almost as quickly as we want. but there is huge political risk to the president doing that. so we're not doing that. >> can we get the map of the middle east back up? we just want to show, look at the posture of afghanistan and iraq. which i think are obviously the two most significant u.s. military locations right now. and can you obviously see gigantic iran in the middle of the two countries. how much of this, this is for

tony and jack, i will start with you, tony, how much of all of this is really theater to maintain u.s. military perimeter around iran and in proximity to pakistnd >> well, let me answer that in two parts. first, the issue of us being in afghanistan, if we go by this agreement, we cannot go into pakistan to do antiterrorism. that is something we have to understand. frankly, the indians are an ally. we should look at working with, they are a good partner. they have done a lot of things in afghanistan. we should have them to not do so much in afghanistan because that is the problem with the pakistanis, they are vand witched in. the iranians did things with karzai. he admitted it pip today interrogate an operative in 2003 in afghanistan. we know they have been doing things to destabilize their efforts. we need to look at a wider set

of issues. focusing only in afghanistan will only get us in trouble. we need to look the the whole thing as a chess game, an checker game. >> so how much of that chess game, that really we are using it as a point ever military bases to deal with the middle east? >> we have rights in a wide variety of areas near there. we don't necessarily have to be in afghanistan but suffice it to say we will stay there with special forces and special operation forces as long as we possibly can. the really interesting thing is what happens when afghans want to go conduct raids and we mentioned it before. they won't do anything without american air power and that's why the people will be on the ground for a while. yes, we're there in order to put pressure on both pakistan and iran. but to be quite frank, we don't have to be in afghanistan at all. >> so in other words, we could apply the staple pressure to iran and pakistan without churning in the dirt in

afghanistan. >> we have been doing it. we've been doing it without necessarily being in afghanistan. >> that is also what is going on in syria of course. that is destabilize -- >> well, we are coming to the point but to take the conversation to its largest location. a major evaluation of america's relationship with the middle east, with the arab spring, with ids israel, with egypt. there is some sort of cohesive strategic evaluation that seems to be in order. if you listen to joe, listen to folks, is there a pointed history you would compare this to where you are almost in a post world war ii moment where they may not be there yet, but you will get there. where you say, listen wlab is our relationship with this region in the new paradigm? go ahead, tony. >> yeah, let me hit it real quick. during the preworld war ii area we looked at plan orange. there was a rainbow of plans.

we looked at threats and plan orange looked at japanese and looking at it in about 1910. by 1940 we add plan in place. we don't have that now. several i have talked to say we lack a grand strategy to direct our grand power -- dylan, we still have huge economic, political, military power. it is just not phase and arranged in such away that we understand what we are supposed to achieve and so our adversaries understand it and so our friends trust us. >> do you agree with tony's characterization? how much of that culture is a function of a short term political can you kculture that has no long-term thinking military, infrastructure, energy, health, banking. pick any category. we don't have a government that spends time or energy doing

cohesive collective problem solving. >> well, a lot of people believe that america's security rests on its, basically getting its fiscal house in order, making sure we have the smartest people, best economy. you will have much more credibility and legitimacy, wherever you are in the world, whether it is militarily. or even just diplomatically. so that seems to be what i would -- i mean, i heard jon huntsman talk about this during the campaign. haven't heard enough of that from the two candidates. but president has laid out, a pretty long-term plan. that's part of the problem here, t two-year short term disengagement. but a ten-year long lover affair with the country. where some sort of, you know, we are going to be there for years. i mean, i think that's the big problem, is there doesn't seem to be any long-term exit strategy. i suppose that's probably the political issue you are talking about. >> is anybody aware, i know that joe, and i'm just not that

informed on this particular issue, is there any group of people, bipartisan, nonbipartisan, that is working on some sort of cohesive prop e proposals as to how you might navigate with some sort of less hypocritical, less insane policy. >> you're saying this is something that should come from congress? >> or the president? or pentagon. the cia. fbi. >> those are all executive -- those are things that should be coming out of the executive branch. you do not want congress to change -- >> i'm asking the question, is there anybody doing anything -- do you know of anybody doing this? >> the short answer is no. but you raise an interesting point. you raised it earlier and you are suggesting it now. at the end of the day, it almost doesn't matter what the security council or president decides. at the end of the day the senate and house appropriations kmi committees decide what will

happen. >> that's where congress can have -- it usually defers to the president and to the defense secretary, to what they need. when you are prosecuting a war, do you want to be that member of the congress, member of the senate who votes against the troops? how many of those faux debates -- >> if the americans are unhappy with the 12-year war in afghanistan, and say you better not keep paying for that thing, you could force withdraw. although in our culture would what would end up happening is we would he leave our soldiers there with no guns. >> i think that if the president of the united states does not get reelected, it'll not be because of afghanistan. >> i agree. quickly, tony. >> look, the plan signed yesterday is not worth the paper it's written on. we may as well agree with the penguins in antarctica. karzai is not a stable ally.

it is hol dwro hollow. there is nothing in here that helps us militarily that helps us achieve objectives. >> no, no -- that resonates with my less informed opinion. but i'm happy to hear it from you, tony. it makes sense to me. tony and jack, thank you very much. the panel stays, jonathan, imagen and john will stay. doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals arrested in a federal sting operation. pretty wide reaching. we will have the details and our specialist, top medicare and medicaid minister, was a mouthful about the magnitude of waste and fraud he's witnessed firsthand in american healthcare. ecret? [ male announcer ] dawn hand renewal with olay beauty. improves the look and feel of hands in just five uses. [ sponge ] soft, smooth... fabulous! [ male announcer ] dawn does more... [ sponge ] so it's not a chore.

like a squirrel stashes nuts, you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec® liquid gels. nothing starts working faster than zyrtec® at relieving your allergy symptoms for 24 hours. zyrtec®. love the air.

and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team.

>> charged is 07 defendants in seven different cities for their alleged participation in medicare fraud schemes involving approximately 4$452 million.

there were doctor doctors, nurses, social workers and others accused of a range of serious offenses. >> that's some developing news for you. that's this afternoon. attorney general announcing medicare fraud, medicare fraud take down this morning with raids in seven ciy from tampa t angeles. imagine if they did that to banks. my goodness. >> alleged scams include quote every kind of scheme can you think of. as i heard, totalled more than $450 million in phony billing. that is likely just the tip of the iceberg they say. estimated as much as one-third of our total healthcare spending is either waifste or fraud. one of our top healthcare administrators joins us. the appointment for obama's

implementation of the affordable care act web left the administration and has plenty to say about all this. don, when you look at the rate of procedure, rate of prescription, increasingly available in the health networks, how easy is it for someone who want to, to see when you have a let of people with a particular drug or procedure, that just match up with the demographics, which seems to be the best and easiest red flag. >>ity's getting a lot easier, thanks so the affordable care act and reorganization of cms before i got there. but i took it over, the fraud unit. integrity unit is much stronger than ever before. remarkable dr. peter badetti runs it. we are working with the local law enforcement. there the affordable care act there is predictive analytics. that's what your credit card uses. if you try to use your card in

turkey, they might call you and say what is going on. and data is disturbing. quite a bit of fraud. very few people carrying it out but it is large when they do. >> imagen? >> first of all, i have to say, i'm your biggest fan. thank you for what you said on the free healthcare service in the uk. you said you loved it, you have romantic notions. it was very much appreciatated in the uk. is there anything that u.s. healthcare system can learn from the uk healthcare system. maybe the nice, which n which republicans compare as to death pen panels. do you think that has to be looked at in america? >> that's a lot of questions. >> sorry. >> we can deliver everything our patient and families want and need with less money than we are spending now. we don't need to ration. we shouldn't. we do have to work on waste.

waste levels are high and fraud is only piece of it. we have plenty of money. death panels are nonsense. there never were such things tp. it quelled a very important discussion about what to do in late stages and communities around the end ever life care. i'm sad that that has taken over. with respect to british national health service. it functions well in britain and has many problems. that's why i worked there. i don't believe it will function in the u.s. every country has its own way of care. nice in britain uses science in healthcare. some good features and some trouble sum ones. in the u.s. and all countries we should conduct science to care. when i see a child in my office, i want to make sure i'm putting the best possible knowledge to that child's case. i want science and technology to tell me the best way it care for this kid at this time, and they often do. >> how worried are you that the health care law will be ruled

unconstitutional in and what impact -- what are the negative impacts or maybe even positive impact that could happen given what you have seen from your vantage point? ? >> i think it'll a tragedy if the law is called unconstitutional. a tragedy for the 30 million people who will find healthcare coverage to proceed with that law. we are the only western democracy. this law is a very important step to help people who need healthcare, get it. they lose. so do elders who get prevention services under the law. that is taken away. they are on their parents' policies if they are under 26. that will be taken away. i expect this law will be uphold, the country is on the move. healthcare is changing. we know we have a system we just can maintain. we have to make it much more

seamless, coordinated, and much more reliable for patient. ask a patient. they will tell you, things aren't going right. with this law, we can fix it better and faster. >> rob, go ahead. >> there was some encouraging signs that the rate of growth and healthcare spending in the country has slowed a bit. that may be recession based. i'm just curious whether you think that is something we can count on. is it a result of people making, you know, expecting the law it come in nooto effect. is it people postponing treatments because they can't afford them, so they store them up for later? >> your question is exactly right. we don't know yet. one must be cautious. we don't know what trend is yet or the causes. we will learn over time. there is a component of recession here. we know in the economy we have now people delay care. and that produces a false sense of savings. we will be storing up some need. i have seen enough as i traveled around the country.

both as administrator and now. much more coordinated care p.m. people working hard on patient safety. hospitals thinking hard about what efforts are wasted. patients more active in their own care and fingers crossed, i hope this is the beginning of that change we ch we need. supported by the affordable care act but i'm not ready to bet whether that trend is durable or not. if we don't find a way it reduce healthcare cost, the country will have severe problems. >> very quickly as i'm running the clock, one of the most effective evidences for reducing healthcare cost is changing human's diet, as you know. the correlation between animal protein, the china study, all these things. why the government not more aggressive across the board, the usda, advocating scientifically provable diet changes and how much has that not happened because people like the usda are dependent on the animal meat

producers? >> i'm pretty optimistic about direction. if you want to get scared, get on the center for disease sent, website and it is scary. calorie counts will be posted in restaurant. if congress keeps head on shoulders, cdc will have prevention fund. it is under attack. we need preserve it. secretary of health and human services. >> sorry to interrupt you because of the clock. but i'm saying that -- yes, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. we need fewer heart, hundred thousand dollar open heart surgeries. we need fewer cancer surgeries. less diabetic treatment. less alzheimer's treatment. if our diet changes significantly and our government subsidized the most poison sources namely corn syrup and animal protein and made it that pourest people do not have access to foods that help you not get those diseases.

do you believe it we can solve that in brief? >> i know we can, dylan. i'm more optimistic than you sound. i see several agencies helping the public and making them aware of how much of their health they control. there is always interest in play here. but i saw lots of good stuff going on when i was at hhs. we have really have to push that ahead. otherwise we are accepting disease is inevitable. >> and bankrupting ourselves treating it. it would be lovely to see cheap nood is healthy opposed to cheap food that is toxic. if you have money, you can get good food but if you're not, you are stuck getting toxifying food. that's a screwed up country, i my myself. i'm sure you do too don. don berwick, thank you so much. ron, imagen, thank you to you. one of the greatest life mystery

explained. brain farts. they are real and i will explain what causes them right after this. ♪ ♪ [ lauer ] this is our team. and unlike other countries, it's built by your donations, not government funding. and now, to support our athletes, you can donate a stitch in america's flag for the 2012 olympic games in london. help raise our flag, add your stitch at teamusa.org. the calcium they take because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. it's all about absorption. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. some constipation medications can take control of you. break free. with miralax.

it's clinically proven to relieve constipation and soften stool with no harsh side effects. just gentle predictable relief. miralax.

you walk into a conventional mattress store, it's really not about you. they say, "well, if you wanted a firm bed you can lie on one of those." we provide the exact individualization that your body needs. oh, wow! that feels really good. it's about support where you find it most comfortable. to celebrate 25 years of better sleep-for both of you - sleep number introduces the silver edition bed set, at incredible savings of $1,000 for a limited time. only at the sleep number store, where queen mattresses start at just $699. let's start with car insurance x. is one doesave people a lot of money and it's very affordable. it was very delicious. could you please taste car insurance y? this one is much more expensiv ugh. it's really bad. let's see what you pick. oh, geico! over their competitor. you e a magician right? no., oh. you're not?,

no., oh, well, give it a shot. i am so, so sorry. it was is clo. kelwell come back. our next segment is about brain farts. you know what i mean. you're just thinking of something and then -- just as quickly you completely forget what it was. i got to tell you, i have no idea what i came here to tell you. according to new research, five everyday things trigger these mental hiccups in all of us. for instance, door ways are a huge problem. explaining that, what did i come in here for phenomenon what when you walk into the kitchen. psychologists of notre dame discovered passing through a door way creates an event boundry which triggers the

surroundings. and walking into a new room through a door way creates a blank slate for new memories and new context, hence the brain fart. second thing, beeps. from our phones. to smoke alarms. to trucks in reverse. each apparently triggers a mini brain fart. tones are not naturally occurring and since man did not evolve hearing them scientists argue that our brains have trouble processing the beeps and they freeze the movement of your brain. the next thing is a photograph, like a beep, our brain did not evolve seeing photographs, the scientists say. as such our brains have trouble separating reality from pictures and become confused. we don't know what we are thinking. fourth, cell phones. if you get a phantom vibration from this thing or whatever your version of this thing is, it is your brain miss interpreting some other stimuli. and finally, wheels. same things, dogs chase wheels,

because it is weird, did t doesn't have feet, i have it stop the car because it is moving without feet. the spinning action of wheels on humans mess me rises us and trick us us into thinking things are moving in the opposite direction. final take away, the useful thing that really is my service to you on this wednesday afternoon, with all this recording, is the next time you are in a testy conversation, with a significant other, simply walk them through a door way. i have no idea. speaking of new science, remember the scientific meth frod grade school in some big businesses are using the same process to receive impressive results. we are asking if the government should take up the same experimentation, that is next. hey dad. see how the rrots i grow make that new stouffer's stmeal so tasty. actually, the milk from my farm makes it so creamy, right dad. dad can see... boys! don't you think stouffer's steam perfectag

shou get some credit? my carrots. my milk. [ female announcer ] new from stouffer's. farmers' harvest steam meals taste so good we'll bet the farm on it.

like, keep one of these over your head. well, i wasn't "supposed" to need flood iurce, but i have it. fred over here chose not to have it. ♪ me, i've got a plan. fred he uh... fred what is your pl? do i look like i have a plan? not really.

[ female annncer ] only flood insurance covers floods. for a free brochure, call the number on your screen. with rent2buy from hertz car sales, you skip the lots... and pushy sales people... it's a fast, easy way to buy a used car. three days to try. zero pressure to buy. it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. some aerosols may just mix with them. can febreze really remove it. we asked real people what they thought. [ moderator ] take a deep breath for me. describe the smell. it's very pleasant. fresh. some kind of flower maybe? [ moderator ] remove the blindfold... awww, oh yuck! i didn't smell any of that! [ male announcer ] febreze air effects doesn't mix, it actually removes odors. [ laughs ] wow, that's incredible. [ male announcer ] so you can breathe happy. guaranteed. the day starts with arthritis pain... a load of new listings... and two pills. after a morning of walk-ups, it's back to more pain,

back to more pills. the evening showings bring more pain and more pills. sealing the deal... when, hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. it can relieve pain all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lois... who chose two aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels. back now, breaking it down, here is the thing about a culture of experimentation. it's more fun, you don't know the outcome, you frequently reveal things you never even thought possible. you just have to be willing to accept a culture that allows for failure and transitions and pivots and learns from those failures, lacking desperately in our own culture. our next guest says that those very cultures are the ones that

will fix our biggest problems. from crimed tocation to the economy itself. jim spent his career teaching social experimentation and is the author of "uncontrolled" trial and error for business, science and society. we have been proj te sizing. and it seems that those who see the culture benefit from better outcomes. what do you got? >> maybe even better than research is experience. >> yeah. >> i have seen the hard way over a period of more than ten years some of the biggest kns in the united states and world using trial and error aggressively to improve performance in ways that are measurable. >> for example? >> well, very large companies from wal-mart, staples, mcdonald's, all over the world,

deployed experiments to get answers to questions they have been stuck on for years and years. what's the right price to charge? does this promotion or that promotion work? where should we invest under money? where should we invest in people? do these just sound good in theory? >> your argument, that culture applied in places where the stakes are highest and rewards most immediate. private business. some scientistic labtories, engineering. what would it be if we assigned that culture to our politics and more broadly, our culture. >> well i think we have seen from experience in limited ways when it's applied, what the results have been. i think the things we learn from applying experiments to social policy are three things. first, most programs that sound great in theory don't really work. second when they do work they usually create small improvements, not human. improvements. and third they usually work differently in some places than others. so it tends to lead to you be

skeptical about theories. prove against social problems is not finding one silver bullet but lofts partial answers and to recognize you will get different answers in different places. >> ultimately it goes to the conversation where you talk to dr. brenner, talking about hot spotting healthcare. i talked to david kennedy a lot with the don't shoot program and hot spotting crime reduction in give ren communities. i could go on and on with the different people. common threat -- energy is the same thing. you want it create a custom solution to a given situation. and that -- who, what was when, where and why is unknowable. but how is knowable. if you approach a culture with a transparent set of rules, you will get the best custom answers for that town, that village, that problem. that is the culture that's used at places lining like google and elsewhere. why do you think it is so difficult for us to get this culture more broadly applied? >> i think there are problems that are universal and will

never go away. the basic problem of human nature which creates the political problem that often people don't want it create the outcomes they say they do. that's like gravity. we won't make that go away but we have to push against it. i think in the last 20 years of business, it is fundally moore's law enabled creation of technology which let experiments be run, much, much, much cheaper. >> so the cost is collapse. >> absolutely. and it has taken a lot of engineering work. but there are orders of magnitude which means we don't have to look for one answer. we have to look for a lot of localized answers. >> right. >> do you believe this transferable to the government? >> yes, i do. i argue that in the book. again by don't think more experiments will eliminate the problem of politics. we don't live in nirvana where there is no longer politics or common interests. but we can get somewhat better at looking at what policy works and placees. a good example is there have

been about 122 randomized experiments like this in criminology over 50 years. there is only one thing which has ever been shown in repeated trials to work. and that's called newsis aba abatement or broken windows in hot spots policing. it is not just theory or something that sounds good. can you show in real experiment nets field that that's the thing that works. >> again, that's where the hole premise of the show has become hot spotting as through the lens which with you deal with these things. because the statistics on improvements in healthcare, improvement in learning, improvement in community health, not shooting each other, not taking drugs, are stunning but only for those using that one methodology. the. >> the reason that happens, much more so with change in healthcare programs, more so than when you say why is it that polo vaccine works different in some cities. it doesn't, there is a relatively uniform biological response.

but society is so much more complicated that you don't see uniform response. >> wonderful to have you here. the book, "uncontrolled." i love the cover. very out of control. >> take credit for it. >> the surprise payoff of trial and error forbusiness and politics and society. check it out. first, after dodd-frank and great obama financial reforms, we'll give you one guest where the key people behind the law that maintain the secrecy of the world's largest credit gambling parlor, guess where they're working now? tim carnie calles it how he sees it next. there's definitely a temptations for you. unless you're one of those people who doesn't like delicious stuff. temptations. it's the first jell-o that's just for adults. i'm here to unleash my inner cowboy.

instead i got heartburn. [ horse neighs ] hold up partner. prilosec isn't for fast relief. try alka-seltzer. it kills heartburn fast. yeehaw! holding down the fort while you're out catching a movie. [ growls ] lucky for me, your friends showed up with this awesome bone. hey! you guys are great. and if you got your home insurance where you got your cut rate car insurance, it might not replace all this. [ electricity crackling ] [ gasping ] so get allstate. you could save money and be better protected from mayhem like me. [ dennis ] dollar for dollar, nobody protects you from mayhem like allstate. we asked total strangers to watch it for us. thank you so much, i appreciate it, i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger,

you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense.

here is tim carney with the daily rent rant. >> hello pl. big barngs are getting bigger when the rest of the economy is still struggling. the 2010 law that was supposed to restrain the big banks was called the dodd-frank bill named off its sponsors senator chris dod and congressman barney frank. guess what? top staffers for dod and frank are now consultant at lobbying firms working for the biggest banks. you see, after congress passes any bill, it's up to the officials in the executive branch to implement the law by writing detailed regulations. dodd-frank gave huge lead way to agencies with be sec, treasury department and federal reserve on just how to write the new financial regulations that the bill prescribed. so the big banks and financial consultant did exactly what you

would expect them to do. hired out the congressional officials who wrote the bill. for instance, amy friend was a general council ever the senate banking committee during bailouts and dodd-frank. senator dodd thanked her repeatedly from the senate floor for her work on the bill. in january 2011 she left capitol hill for a financial group a politically connected consulting firm for big banks and other financial companies. when they hired amy friend they noted her work on dod franks and explained she would work for the firm's client on quote the regulatory implementation of the dodd-frank wall street reform which is the 2300 page says one of the most complex and wide ranging overhauls of the financial regulatory framework in decades. next through the revolving door came daniel need chief council to barney franks financial services committee. need cashed out to k street firm hogan lufls in march 211. the firm described him as quote

a principal draft person of the dodd-frank wall street reform, unquote. hogan explained that need would represent financial firms quote impacted by dodd-frank. mega bank credit swooes and other firms are lobbying client. friend and need are only two of the examples. many of the officials who built the framework as dodd-frank as public servants are now shaping the details of the law on behalf of banks and hedge funds. the results, some regulations come out toothless while other regulations are made it crush smaller firms and keep out new competitors. so the big banks get bigger and too big to fail gets worse and the revolving door keeps on spinning. dylan? >> in 15 seconds, tim carney, explains to me why neither political party did anything about this. democrats came in and gave thus pile of garbage and republicans helped. >> they all get rhode island rich off of it, dylan. in the end they all have the