we asked you at the top of the show what you could possibly be doing up at this hour? our producer john tower has som. >> i'm awake because i'm watching from estonia where it's 12:00. >> we're big there. huge. tower, what else? >> i have barry who writes, nursing a bad shoulder with dr. cuervo and i demand a meeting with hillary. >> good for him, and i'm all for human rights, but let's take it down a little bit on demanding the meeting with our secretary of state. we'll get you to eventually. "morning joe" starts right now. there's just not the fire for mitt romney that there was

for some of the more conservative candidates in the race. >> i suggest to you we better get a fire going. four more years of barack obama, when you look at these debt that is on the future generations, when you look at what he's talking about doing from the standpoint of coming in and telling states how to run their business, i mean, this isn't even in the ballpark of close. mitt romney has to win this presidential election in november of 2012 or our country truly is going to be on the precipice of bankruptcy and international affairs that i will suggest to you none of us are going to like. >> all right. good morning. it is friday, may 4. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have the choirm of deutsch incorporated, donny deutsch. this has been a long week. how many times have you been here? >> six. >> yeah. former governor of pennsylvania and nbc news political analyst ed rendell is back with us. good to have you.

>> you know, willie, we always say -- we warn people on both sides of the ledger, the yankees side and the red sox side, what a long season this is. i remember i was listening to michael kay when the sox were 4-11 or whatever, and the yankees had just come back. and all the yankee fans were calling in and going, we got them, we got them. michael kay said, guys, come on. he goes, you know what? we're a lot older than the sox. and when you're old, bad things happen. >> yes. it happened. >> and he said, we may not even get to august, september. and last night, something really big for yankees fans, possibly the greatest relief pitcher ever unfortunately -- >> well, he is the greatest relief pitcher ever by any measure. last night in kansas city, that's mariano rivera, the great mariano rivera, shagging fly balls in the outfield during batting practice. a lot of people say why is he doing that? she has been doing that his whole career. he wants to play a game in center field. great athlete.

tore up his knee. first thought it was twisted. then went to the hospital in kansas city to find out it's a torn acl. he is done for the season at least. he said in spring training he thought this might be his last year, which could mean that would be the last image we see of mariano rivera in a yankees uniform. >> one of the greatest reliever pitchers ever. >> you know, willie, they say some records will never be broken. cy young's for wins. 42 postseason saves. it will never be broken, ever. >> and a .7 e.r.a. dark day for yankee fans. >> a dark day for yankee fans also. have you guys been following what's been going on in china? "the new york times" talking about the possibility of a bungling of this case. an embarrassment for the united states. and some tough questions for the obama administration. but i think more importantly, there's going to be second guessing. and of course, republicans

already overreaching in their second guessing. now is the time i, i would say, to follow eisenhower and other leaders' beliefs that politics sometimes should stop at the water's edge. but in this case, the obama administration has some really tough decisions to make about this dissident. >> yeah. i think so, joe. i think we have to wait and see how this plays out. i believe china has a common interest with us. i think they want this guy out, where he can't do any harm internally, and i think we want him out. and i think it will have a good resolution. >> so you think if we go ahead and get him out, work a deal, you don't think that will hurt our relationship with china in the long run? >> no. i think it's actually in their interest. i don't think they want him there as a symbol. >> yeah. maybe so. all right, me all right, mika. we have some business news coming up. >> yes, we do. but let's also run mitt romney's

comments about that. but this morning, the labor department will release new jobs numbers. it's estimated that employer added just 163,000 jobs last month. that's up from the 120,000 created in march, but well short of the 246,000 jobs created on average between the months of december and february. unemployment is expected to remain the same at 8.2%, which is a three-year low. we'll have the official numbers for you at 8:30 eastern time. we'll bring that to you live. >> governor, i heard people around bill clinton would always look at one number, and that one number, as far as just when the president really started to get nervous is gas prices, because bill clinton as we know as good as any politician ever, he knows that's when it starts hitting working class americans, middle class americans. but is this jobs number what we're going to be looking at throughout the year to gauge president obama? i'm not talking about we around this table. i'm talking about americans

deciding whether to fire him or rehire him. >> yeah. i think we have made so much of the jobs number over the last year that i think the public is starting to sort of fasten on it. but, joe, i think what the jobs number is in early may isn't important. it looks to me like this economy will bump along until november just as we're going. some progress, not enough for the obama administration to claim it's over, it's really over, and not enough for the republicans to really broadside. >> guys, here's what the jobs number will tell you. in the last 50 years, any president where the jobs number has been going in the right direction over the last two years has won. every president where it's been going in the wrong direction has lost. in 2010 november, it was 9.7%. now it's 8.2%. and most economists are predicting about 7.9%. so if history shows us or even if it stays at 8, where it is, 50 years of history. >> what economists are you talking to? economists at a nightclub?

>> even if it stays at 8.2% -- >> no, no. stop, stop. >> joe, first of all -- >> stop, donny. what economist? and just answer this question, what economist is telling you that things will stay the same or get better? i hope that's the case. >> let's say they get worse. and it goes back up to 8.5%. over the last 50 years, any time over two years it's been lower -- look at that little smirk. >> no. i just love it. >> you're like a bad little boy. >> i just love it when you try to play grownup around the table. >> i'm a historian. >> newt was a historian too. >> i'm just throwing the facts out. being so serious. >> who is the economist? >> where did you come up with 7.9%? >> he just made it up. i couldn't let him do it. donny, forget the numbers. you get more importantly the

gut, you know, of the american. whatever you say. so here is the good news. mortgage rates sink to new lows. that should be great news, right? well, guess what, that's only great news for people like us around the table that when we walk into the banks people go, oh, yeah, we'll loan you whatever you want, and you're basically borrowing money for free. look at the subheadline right here. because this is what's important. and that is if you're a small business, if you're a struggling middle class worker, you can't get those loans because the credit is still tight. >> yeah. >> that's the sort of thing that i think angers americans. and isn't that the sort of thing not just the president but congress has got to figure out how they break up that log jam and loosen the credit so small businesses can hire and people can refinance? >> well, you've talked a lot on the show about the amount of money sitting on balance sheets, particularly in financial

institutions. obviously, new regulations make things a little harder, as well they should. but until that happens, until credit gets a bit greased, we've got a little problem. >> willie, have you ever seen anybody with more -- like kate made this for me. so this is special. very special for me. means a lot to me. but have you ever seen a man with more things around his wrist than donny? >> what i'll say for donny is i have learned since i have got a daughter you put things on your body that you never thought you would wear before for your daughter. so whatever you've got to do. >> once again, you mock my children. every one of these -- both were given to me by my daughter by london. this was a london and daisy extravaganza. >> oh, my god. >> you get a pass on that. >> you just have a lot more children than me. >> as a fellow father, i -- >> by the way, willie, he gets some of those from children he's never even met before. >> oh. >> that's mike barnicle, by the way. >> at least he's not wearing the

purple watch. >> do you think that suit has donny's name inside of it? >> no question. >> ask viewers at home. yes or no. >> please don't open the jacket. >> of course it does. >> no, no. >> i don't really -- >> no, it's not there. >> not interested. >> these are tough times for everybody, mika. >> you just made mine a little tougher. >> donny raised the unemployment rate in six seconds. one thing we should point out, we've said it wasn't about president obama and we said it when george bush was the president. the jobs number is a tough one to read. when it ticks down, it means that some people have come out. so whatever that number says, there's still a lot of people out there who aren't included in that number who are hurting. >> it does gauge progress. and that's what the american people are focusing on is progress. but i don't think it's going to come fast enough for the obama administration to say we've done it. >> back to the point you made

with the real housing number, the real reality with the housing, is that usually that number is a sign. but you see movement around it that makes you feel the number makes sense. and that's the question. you know, if unemployment goes down, is there movement around it? president obama officially kicks off his 2012 re-election campaign tomorrow in virginia. likely key battleground state in the general election. according to a new "washington post" poll of virginia registered voters, the president leads mitt romney by seven points. among women in virginia, the president leads romney by 18 points. 56% to 58%. -- 56% to 38%. exit polling shows mccain beat obama by 17 points in virginia. romney has been several days campaigning in the state, including an event yesterday with virginia governor bob mcdonald and former candidate michele bachmann. congresswoman bachmann endorsed romney, framing the election as

a basic choice. >> i think for all of america, this is a very simple proposition this november. president barack obama, president mitt romney. you decide. very easy. >> the democratic national committee responded to bachmann's endorsement saying, how did mitt romney buy the endorsement of tea party leader and anti-choice crusader michele bachmann? by selling out america's women to the extreme gop base that wants to defund planned parenthood, restrict women's access to preventative health care, and turn back the clock on women's health. >> blah, blah, blah. they are saying online did you see this osama bin laden diary thing where he picks up the networks? >> yes, yes. >> is this real? >> fox is in the abyss. what does that mean? >> osama bin laden had these diaries. he didn't like fox, of course. you wouldn't expect him to.

cnn, he thought it was a government sanctioned deal. and i guess he had like people from my neighborhood with those cbs is rather biassed bumper stickers on their camels for years because he says that he wants to target cbs news because he says they're fair. what does that even mean? >> he also had specific correspondents in mind for his big sitdown interviews. >> who is that? >> i think he wanted brian ross at abc. >> he's always first on the story. >> he's good. >> brian ross. >> can you believe that? >> all right. >> wow. >> oh, no. i can't even look at her face. makes my stomach hurt. >> stop it. donny, seriously -- >> donny can speak to this. because you have a tanning booth in your home. >> tanning the 5-year-old child. >> she said she didn't. >> you're following this story, aren't you? what's the latest development? >> i think i know what happened to that kid, just sitting there

next to her mom talking in the tanning bed got her like -- it's just wrong. she's in there so much, the kid probably wanted to see her mom. >> i can't even look at her. >> look at her. she's in there all the time. >> that's the only time you can see her. >> mom -- and she gets burned. >> can i ask you a question about virginia? >> you really want me to do this next story at some point, i promise you. >> i'm sure i do. but like i always say states return to type, the closer you get to election. republicans always say we're going to win pennsylvania this year. and i always laugh in june because i know they'll pull out in october, because republicans don't win pennsylvania. so we know ohio is going to be close. we know florida is going to be close. all of these states go true to form. pennsylvania will break democratic at the end. but virginia. what happened in virginia over the past four years that has actually made it look more blue than red? this is a state as you know, when you ran the party,

democrats have been after virginia for years. but they haven't been able to get it. why now? why is this going stronger in the democratic. >> i just think that northern virginia, which is really the federal government, it's federal government workers, has continued to build up its demographic and its numbers. and i think the north now somewhat outvotes the south. same in pennsylvania. the reason republicans can't carry pennsylvania is philadelphia suburbs, where the moderate republicans used to be, and the independents, has gone consistently democrat in presidential elections. and i think that's what's happening here. the loss of moderate middle of the road republicans in northern part of the state is killing the republicans. >> so the republicans can win pennsylvania, virginia, in off-year elections when there aren't as many people out to vote. we certainly saw that in pennsylvania in 2010. >> sure. pennsylvania is an entirely republican state, republican legislature, republican governor, one republican

senator. >> but during presidential elections, and the voting base expands, it's republicans can't win there. >> tom corbett, the incumbent governor, carried the philadelphia suburbs. >> republican. >> republican. no republican presidential candidate has carried the philadelphia suburbs since dukakis and president bush. so that's the key. in presidential elections, the independents, women voters, moderate republicans, don't vote republican because of this craziness. >> coming off of virginia, joe, take me through the electoral gains. even if romney takes florida and ohio, with the big hispanic deltas, the 20-point deltas, the nevadas and new mexicos, what's the road on the electoral map, if pennsylvania is really not in play? how does he get there? >> the same way george w. bush

got there. but if he loses -- well, he's got to win florida. he's got to win ohio. he's got to win indiana. >> iowa. >> got to did back and win indiana. iowa. it's only three electoral votes but he's got to win new hampshire, arizona. right now, that's a tough one. you've got new mexico, obviously, that he's going to have to play. >> how does he win new mexico? >> listen, it's too early to tell. it's the final weekend. we saw this on friday before the 1980 election. it was deadlocked. nobody knew until jimmy carter got the internal polls on sunday, i think it was, and he teared up in plains the next day. nobody knew until the day before the election that the entire country just swung. and it can swing wildly either way. you know, i don't know about you. i campaigned around the clock. i never -- i'll be blunt with you. i never met anybody that campaigned harder than me.

they may have campaigned as hard as me. but i don't know anybody that campaigned harder. but i will tell you on monday morning, i just -- >> nervous? >> no, i just shut down. i stopped campaigning. do you know why? because it hit me that people had decided. i know that goes against convention. but i tell you, most voters decide on that weekend before. they're sitting around the table on saturday or sunday. and that's when husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, talk to each other and go, so what do you think? what do you think about this romney guy? and one might say, you know what? he is just too out of touch. the other one might say, you know what? obama doesn't know how to bring jobs. it's that gut level at the end, right? >> and virginia is not lost for romney. seven points in early may doesn't mean it's over. if romney can re-establish -- and it's going to be hard because of what he said in the primary campaigns. if he can re-establish himself with moderate republicans and independent voters, and sort of convince them that he really is a middle of the roader, he's got a shot. >> and we probably won't know

until that final weekend, will we? >> absolutely. and i think these debates will be more important than any presidential election in a long time. >> i agree with that. >> he still has that big margin in virginia among women, 18 points. being onstage with bob mcdonald, the left obviously painting him as the guy who wanted him to push vaginal probes on women before they were granted an abortion. >> well, bob mcdonald is pretty pop lawyer there. the unemployment rate is low there. they may want to be careful doing that. but i tell you this. there may be a path forward if romney doesn't win virginia. i don't see it actually. but if he loses north carolina as well, as mccain did, it's over. you do not -- a republican will not be elected president that does not win virginia or north carolina. right? there's no way forward. >> if he loses those two states, he'll lose ohio too. >> yeah.

ok. all right. when we come back, mike allen will join us onset with politic oh's top stories of the morning. >> what a happy friday it is. >> what's he doing here? this is special. >> i didn't know he had legs. also ahead, tavis smiley and dr. cornel west will join us on the set. eugene robinson and romney adviser dan senor will be here. in many areas of the northeast, it's been a fwlogloo start to the month of may. thunderstorms rolling through new york city at this time. a shot from times square shows it's very wet right now. a little bit of a break, but another line of storms will roll through manhattan here shortly. if you're driving in and around new york city, the tristate area in the next hour, we'll deal with these storms. probably by about 7:30 or so, they'll start to clear out and probably dry out for the rest of the day. so the forecast, showers and thunderstorms this morning. dry during the day.

and then another round of strong storms from philly to d.c. late this afternoon. in other words, have the umbrella handy. also, central illinois from peoria to springfield, dodging big thunderstorms. the forecast today, in the nowhere half of the country, very stormy weather. southern half of the country is just fine and warm. going through saturday, still a chance of thunderstorms from minneapolis to chicago. of course, the biggest event on saturday, the kentucky derby. today is the oaks. the female horses, the fillies, race unfortunately for derby day, it's very warm, mid 80s and humid, and we will see a chance of storms on saturday afternoon. that's nbc sports late saturday afternoon. right now kind of a toss-up if the thunderstorms will hit the track or not. updates on the weekend forecast and we'll continue to track the morning delays on the roads. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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♪ we have the late show running mate wheel. here we go. let's help mitt find a running mate. there's the late show running mate wheel. and here we go. it's broccoli! let's go back to the late show running mate wheel and we'll help mitt romney find a vice president. let's see what we have here. this is clogged vacuum. it's a clogged vacuum. there we go. here we go. roll it. ok. let's see. we had broccoli. we had vacuum clogged. and now we've got squirrel polishing his nuts. there we go.

>> that's awful. >> welcome back to "morning joe." with us now -- >> that kind of just keeping getting worse. >> in the flesh this morning, the chief white house correspondent for politico, mike allen. >> happy friday. >> it's even better in person. so you're here in part to introduce us to a young woman that goes by the name of julia. president obama looking to draw contrasts between his policies and the way they'll impact women versus those of mitt romney. to do so, the president's re-election campaign just launched the life of julia, a fictional character, right, mike? tell us about her. >> that's right. one of the things that those hundreds of young people in the chicago headquarters do is create viral pieces of content for the web, things that people will share. this is one that i think might be viral in the wrong way, that is a lot bigger on the republican side than it is on the democratic side. the life of julia takes her from age 3 to age 67, and at every single point along the way, the

government is giving her a hand. it helps her get student loans. it helps her get a business loan. she is a web designer. and in the end, the government helps with her retirement so that she can work in a community garden, according to this slide show. >> wow. >> hold it. can i just ask -- >> a campaign ad? >> is this for president obama? >> yes. >> because i suddenly feel like i'm living in great britain like in the era of clement atlee. >> this was the story i was trying to get to. >> they did lob this up as a softball, one conservative saying, who the hell is julia and am i paying for her whole life? >> can i ask this? >> well, the argument is that it's patronizing to women. why can't you start a successful web business without barack obama? >> well, who brushes her teeth? >> now stop it. >> you're right. this is what they are asking for -- >> i don't think it helps. >> mika, why don't you think it

helps as a devout marxist? that's fascinating. why do you think it's bad? >> well, i could hear your reaction. i could hear your reaction. and honestly, i think we're at a state, a time in this country, where people feel like there's no hope and they need help so desperately, but at some point we do have to be able to inspire innovation and hope and get people on their way. correct? am i wrong? >> make sure women need to know their value. >> they do need a leg up. but at some point, you know, i don't get it. whole life? >> the one month, three-day anniversary of the paperback. >> oh, lord. is that why you're here? >> makes a great mother's day gift. >> but this is unintended consequences. to be fair, it contrasts an obama policy with a mitt romney policy. so you can see what the young purpose who created this was thinking, that obama here is here to help you. romney is here to hurt you. but when your viral content gets hijacked by the other side, when #julia on twitter is largely

critics -- >> i can hear it. it feels like it plays into your hands. >> well, the thing is, donny, not into my hands, but donny, this cuts against just the grain for the american character. i remember katty kay in 2009, "newsweek's" jon meacham had on the cover, we are all socialists now, talking about how the president was expanding the role of government, and in an exponential way. and katty kay said, you americans would make terrible socialists because you are so driven by work, you've got this thing in you that we englishmen and europeans don't have. that makes america america. and i think that ad cuts against the grain. >> you used the word "character." our character, john wayne, rugged individualism. and it's we will overcome, and yes the government is there.

but we feel weak in that. you look at that and you don't feel proud in that. and so to mike's point, when you dig into it, it was really an us versus them, black versus white. so the overall take away is a little unfair. but in reality, nobody, even a progressive guy like myself, wants to see america portrayed that way. >> that's just it. a lot of america may be soft, but we don't embrace it. we don't want to brag about the fact that we're soft. and we saw that in the sort of rather abrupt turn at the end of the president's remarks in afghanistan the other day, where he talked about renewing the american spirit. >> right. and willie, even if we're lying to ourselves about being rugged individuals -- >> oh, yes, you are. especially when you buy -- >> we want to lie to ourselves because the fact is that the federal government does keep expanding at frightening rates. >> and though one wants to think that from the age of 3, they need the government to take care of them. they want to think they'll be mark zuckerberg. this was easy for the romney

campaign. they said the fact that president obama's campaign is creating fake people to distract from how his abizzal policies have failed real people is sad and extremely pathetic. >> remember the tv show, "julia," it was the first african-american protagonist. >> i thought it was a movie. i think ann bancroft. also a great song off that album. >> there's also another parody out there. they have julia as a humanoid, model 2012, created in chicago. >> it's going to get tiring fast. >> happy weekend. >> nice to see you. >> every time donny mentions a woman's name, i thought julia was a woman you met at the delano or something. >> delano is so yesterday. >> what's today in south beach? >> the w. clearly the w. sports is next. more on mariano rivera. >> it's disturbing.

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all right. time for sports. we touched on it a bit at the top of the show. if you're a yankee fan, no worse sight in the world than the one last night in kansas city. a day that will live in infamy for yankee fans.

mariano rivera shags fly balls in the outfield before the yankee game with the royals. falls awkwardly, trying to make a catch. collapses into a heap. immediately, grabs that right knee. the diagnosis, torn acl. done for the season, perhaps his career. with his mlb streak of 15 consecutive season of 20 saves or more could be done. he was emotional after the game after getting his diagnosis. >> it happened for a reason. and i just have to deal with it. >> do you think you'll come back to pitch again? >> at this point, i don't know. at this point, i don't know. i'm going to have to face this first. >> numbers alone don't tell the story of what mariano rivera has meant to the yankees. but you can see some numbers right here. 608 saves, the most in the history of the game. 2.21 e.r.a. the lowest with any active pitcher with at least 1,000 innings, and particularly brilliant in the postseason.

the lowest playoff e.r.a., .70. >> you know, willie, that is such bad news. i saw a-rod in the shot. is there any way we can blame a-rod for this? >> no. not today. >> not today? is it too early? >> too soon. >> i want to blame a-rod. >> there was an incredible shot in there. we have seen, oh, my god, oh, my god. >> i'm responsible because i left something out on the -- >> i blame the groundskeeper. >> i left my steroids vial on the warning track. >> that's too far. >> just always a step too far. what's going on with the nba? >> peter gammons, by the way, says mariano rivera is the best person, the best guy, in baseball. and he would know. >> the story i loved about him, i guess he blew the save in arizona. >> yeah. >> and i heard the story after it was over. everybody is heartbroken. he gets on the plane. puts on the head phones, and he's fine. and nobody was upset with him because they knew, you've got to

have that mentality if you're going to be a relief pitcher, right? >> he's been perhaps the most consistent not just pitch are but athlete over the last decade and a half. >> he is amazing. >> especially a closer. some people can pitch relief but can't close. they can't take that ninth inning pressure. but mariano had the perfect temperament. >> boy, he did. >> another great moment, joe, 2004, he blows that game four at penway park. and then the first game of the next season, the yankees playing the red sox, getting their rings, and they announce rivera's name. huge ovation in fenway. he just had a big smile, tipped his hat. he went with it. >> well, he knew. you're not going to win every game. and they put you in a bad position. >> if this is the end, it's been an unbelievable, unprecedented career. >> here is the good news, though. he can play another team sport, and not have to even leave the city. he can play for the knicks, right? >> seriously. >> even with a blownout knee, he

can play for the knicks. >> that was so pitiful. >> do you know what rivera would not do? >> what? >> punch the glass on a fire extinguisher case after the game. the knicks were blown out last night. >> they were ahead. should have won. >> it didn't matter. you knew they were going to lose. but lebron james, you see it in his eyes. they are not getting past this one. in the nhl, what happened in the nhl again? >> wow. >> devils beat the flyers in overtime. >> sorry about that. >> one overtime game after another in the nhl. incredible. should we try out for the knicks next season? >> they need some help. >> they really do. >> i can post up well. >> i can see that. >> remember, you're forgetting jeremy. >> no jeremy, no stoudemire, no nothing. >> and no ownership. you can't forget that. dan senor next for mika's must read opinion pages. ♪

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welcome back. it is 43 past the hour. a live look at the white house on this beautiful spring morning. time now for the must-read opinion pages. joining us now for that, former foreign policy adviser to the bush administration and current romney campaign adviser dan senor. >> lean forward. >> just forward. >> forward. >> nice to have you back. >> lean forward. >> how are you doing? >> great. how are you? >> have you screwed up anything lately at home? >> and every middle eastern country. >> whoa. what's that? >> what happened at home? >> technically, it wasn't at home. >> yeah. >> have you been talking to campbell? >> you're not going to educate me, are you? because that doesn't work either. >> we went on a ski trip with the kids. >> sku campbell. >> and the two boys. and the one job she gave me was just to get all of the luggage from the apartment into the car,

to the airport, and to our destination. and i got all the bags there, except for one. >> hers. >> no. all the kids' stuff that she had spent a week packing. >> so they scramble and try and get, you know, the bag, and they are buying stuff and sweating bullets trying to fix their vacation. >> what does dan say to campbell? >> you know what he does? he says, this is a teachable moment. you know what we should learn? we should spread the stuff out so the kids' stuff isn't all in one bag. >> which is not illogical. >> dan, dan -- >> because if you lose the one bag -- >> dan -- >> you don't know how to help yourself. >> you're not helping yourself now, are you? >> i just thought it was a good point. clearly, it wasn't. >> from that point, now you defend mitt romney because clearly you have so much credibility. >> oh, oh. >> unbelievable. >> it's like teeing up the -- >> u.s. weakness in beijing.

for more than mr. chen's best interesting are at stake. the case will reverberate within china and u.s.-china relation in years. in response to beijing's demands that the u.s. apologize for sheltering chen for six days, u.s. assistant secretary of skate kurt campbell said this was an extraordinary circumstance and we do not expect it to repeated. that may have been diplomatic of mr. campbell, but it smacks of weakness and could end up harming mr. chen, his family, and u.s. interests. do you think that i bungled this? >> yeah. >> do you think mitt romney should be talking about this? >> i think anyone in public life who is having to deal with foreign policy and foreign affairs should be talking about this. i mean, there's a big question here. which is, what was the administration thinking when they thought that they could release this dissident from the

u.s. embassy, with a quote, unquote, agreement that was not documented, not written, send him to some hospital which was apparently crawling with plain clothes chinese security officials, have him reunite with his family and learn from his family how terribly they have been treated and leave him there and expect they would have any leverage to enforce this agreement. >> do you think the average american has any resonance with them? this is such an inside baseball story. >> you're talking politics, though. you're talking about actually something more important, and that is our relationship with one of the most powerful countries on the planet. >> but to my point, do you think the average american cares about this? >> i'm not talking about the politics of it. i'm talking about the policy. but i think the competence of the administration is more important than the political fallout. >> hold on, hold on. >> stop, stop. >> this san example where -- >> donny, stop, donny. this is not a cartoon, ok? >> by the way, i'm making a point.

>> you're talking about politics. we haven't even sifted through the policy yet, and you bring up osama bin laden? >> i'm bringing up that i think the story -- >> what grade are we? >> the story is very relevant to us. but the average american i don't think connects to it. >> let's talk about the importance of what's happening in china, why the administration according to "the new york times" is facing withering criticism, and what the impact this has, not only on our relationship with the chinese government but also dissidents' relationship with the chinese government. >> this is very important. first of all, there's a big summit, the u.s.-china dialogue here. the last summit for clinton and geithner. so it's big in our dialogue with the chinese, and they wanted a smooth event. i don't blame them. the u.s. government wanted a smooth event here for the next couple of days with the chinese government, and this got in the way. >> really quickly, we don't have tons of time, what did the administration do wrong? what did the state department bungle? >> i think that the state

department was anxious to get a deal done, and anxious to get chen out of the u.s. embassy, and out -- and get the chinese government out of the u.s. government's hair on this issue, and they basically cut a deal with the chinese that they had no capacity to enforce. what on earth did the administration think they were doing when they sent this guy to the hospital and said, all right, we will monitor the situation. joe, to your point about dissidents, there is a general sense in the human rights community here in the united states, these ngos that work on behalf of human rights and dissidents around the world, and the administration has been pretty good about communicating in the last couple of days. i have heard this a lot. but there is a question about the degree to which the administration has tended to be naive whether it's dealing with the syrians or iranians about how they can negotiate on behalf of dissidents. >> sorry to cut you off, but we don't have a lot of time. governor, what's your take on this and then donny? >> well, first of all, i heard a state department official saying he wanted to go, he wanted to leave, be reunited with his

wife. that's a factor, if he wanted to leave. >> he wanted to leave. he had no temperature access. the state department and the administration would not allow him access. >> he was calling "the new york times." >> after he got out. ed, when he was in the embassy, he had no telephone access to his family or to his friends. once he was reunited with him, after he was out of the embassy, they told him, you're crazy. >> you mean to say we wouldn't let him get on the telephone? >> correct. >> i find that hard to believe. >> why didn't he communicate -- ed, did he communicate by telephone while he was in the embassy? no, no. i'm sure he would have wanted to. >> i'm sure he would have had telephone access. >> final thought to the great donny deutsch. what's the big idea here? >> dan senor is a zealot and it continues to show on this show. >> i don't think he is, but i do -- we will continue this later. because you're staying with us. but i wonder if republican opponents or any candidate should be commenting on something like this. just not sure. >> by the way, let's get to the

second question later, dan, about whether in the middle of a diplomatic crisis with one of our most important rivals you should have a president running around making political hay of it. or a presidential candidate. >> you'll let the zealot respond. >> of course we will. we all love you. [ jennifer garner ] why can't strong sunscreen feel great?

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rook look at this! it's willie. >> time for the week in review. i want to update the story that donny was kind enough to raise, the tan mom. here's what she said yesterday about people accusing her of bringing her 5-year-old daughter to the tanning bed. there's someone out there that doesn't like me because they are old, fat, and ugly. >> i tab. tan. she doesn't tan. it's called a tanning booth. and a tanning room. at number three, mommy tannest. >> i'm in the booth. she's in the room. that's all there is to it. >> an extra crispy new jersey mother caused americans everywhere this week to adjust the settings on their tvs when she glowed into the national news pleading not guilty to charges she took her 5-year-old daughter with her into a tanning bed. >> she's -- you know, she's my

little girl. i'm not going to bring my little daughter into a 90 degree bed. i mean, that's not normal. >> the woman who makes george hamilton and john boehner look downright pasty drew a strong rebuke even from noted jersey bronzing enthusiast snooki, who stepped forward as the voice of responsible tanning. saying, quote, that [ bleep ] crazy. end quote. >> two coats? jesus. at number two, don't feed the animals. just a few months after a 3-year-old became a web sensation by staring down a lion through the plexiglas at a zoo, a lioness at the oregon zoo in portland saw an afternoon snack in a 1-year-old perched for a family photo. >> jack, look behind you. >> zoo keepers say the kid's striped jacket probably made him look to the mama lion like a tasty baby zebra.

or as the president might say -- iecht delicious. and the number one story of the week -- >> in the predawn darkness of afghanistan, we can see the light on a new horizon. >> president obama made a surprise visit to garbaafghanis this week on the one-year anniversary of osama bin laden, an anniversary that the republicans accused him of celebrating a bit too loudly. >> the thing about heroes, they don't brag. >> mitt romney partied like it was 1979, taking a couple of potshots at jimmy carter. >> even jimmy carter would have given that order. >> and then for the current economic malaise. >> who would have guessed we'd look back at the carter years as the good old days? >> it was ann fighting back once again this week against the image of the stiff, overstuffed man. >> there's a wild and crazy man inside here.

>> meanwhile, a man who wore his wild and crazy on the outside during this campaign finally did what most people thought he had done sometime around st. patrick's day, left the race. >> that moon comment was probably not the cleverest in the campaign. >> but still more clever than this woman's visit to the surface of the sun. >> i mean, that's not normal. >> wow. >> the tanning bed. the best part about the story is the tanning place in nutley, new jersey, after they saw that clip, said that is not from our salon. she added some bronzer or something. >> she has a very normal looking husband. >> right. >> and she insists she would never bring her daughter to the tanning bed. >> just because the daughter was peering in going, mommy, mommy -- >> we were just friends. >> it's wrong. still ahead, "the washington post's" eugene robinson and our good friend harold ford jr. will

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could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. welcome back to "morning joe." what a beautiful shot of the sun coming up over washington, d.c. >> beautiful. >> ed rendell and dan senor are still with us. and joining us onset, visiting

professor at nyu and former congressman haroldford jr. >> good morning. good to see you. >> following your leadership. >> i saw harold the other night. he sees me, gives me a handshake, very nice. >> he hugs me. >> then he sees judge nopolit nopolitano, gave him a hug and a kiss. >> he's my buddy. >> i just got a handshake. just saying. and in washington, pulitzer prize-winning and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. >> i'd kiss him. >> it's the hugability factor. >> i'd shake his hand. >> we have a lot of things to talk about really quickly. sports. >> what? >> we have a sportswriter here. you're still writing, right? >> sure. i write for the philadelphia daily news once a week. i predicted the draft, and the eagles followed none of my

suggestions. >> they'll have a tough year this year then. very quickly, rivera last night, one of the greatest pitchers of all time, tragic freak accident for him. >> terrible. >> sad way to go out if it is the end. >> oh, my gosh, yeah. he's probably not going to be back, is he, harold? >> i don't like making those kind of predictions, but he didn't sound good as he was talking about it last night. so i wish him the best, as we all do. >> man, did you see the knicks game? >> i didn't go to the knicks game. that was a tough loss. >> horrible. >> they looked good. i wish the game was only about 2 1/2 quarters. >> are you going to a rangers game? >> i'm going to the rangers game on monday. >> that's going to be huge. >> do you want to go? >> i'd love to. >> ok. there's two foreign policy stories that are -- >> can i ask ed, who is going to win the stanley cup? >> right now, it's wide -- i've never seen it this wide open. i don't think there's one dominant team. i thought the flyers were the hottest team. but it doesn't look like that. >> well, they were.

>> but not now. the rangers are playing great hockey. y but can lundqvist keep pulling them out? i don't know. >> how much do the rangers and flyers hate each other, for people that don't follow hockey? . big time. but nothing was abad as flyers and penguins. there was virile hate in that series. >> have you picked a horse for the derby? >> well, i like hanson except for the fact that the owner named it after himself. horrible, horrible. >> that is trash. >> how do you do that? >> he's got a paisley smoking jacket. come on. >> how about bri zzezinski runn the race? >> that would be are horrible. >> did your family ever follow the big three, the kentucky derby or the preakness? >> not like you all follow sports. >> did you like smarty jones? >> no. sorry. >> how could you not like

smarty? >> so we have the derby this week. as my dad from kentucky always told me, the first weekend in may. derby day. that's a big one. we need to have a "morning joe" derby party. get dan in one of those big hats. >> yeah. ok. so you need to work on your hugability factor. >> he didn't hug me. it's rude. >> now i'm digressing. >> not making a big deal about it, but it's just -- >> and away we go. >> it's rude. the obama administration is struggling to come up with a plan to deal with a crisis, mika. >> yes, chen guangcheng, the blind chinese activist who was sheltered at the american embassy in beijing for six days after escaping from house arrest. he left the u.s. compound on wednesday after the u.s. state department brokered a deal guaranteeing his safety inside the country. but since then, chen apparently changed his mind and called today the situation dangerous and appealed for american help. he spoke to members of congress

yesterday in a phone call translated by a human rights activist during an emergency hearing on capitol hill. >> i want to meet with the secretary clinton. i hope i can get more help from her. i also want to thank her face-to-face. >> already becoming an issue on the campaign trail, mitt romney is suggesting that obama administration officials rushed to make an agreement with the chinese so they could then turn their attention toward other issues. >> our embassy failed to put in place the kind of verifiable measures to assure the safety of mr. chen and his family. if these reports are true, this is a dark day for freedom. and it's a day of shame for the obama administration.

we are a place of freedom. here and around the world. and we should stand up and defend freedom wherever it is under attack. >> gene robinson, some really tough words from mitt romney in the midst of an international crisis. what do you think? >> tough and premature words, i think. i actually almost agree with the zealot dan senor in that i think there are important questions here that should be asked. i just -- i disagree with mitt romney that we have any answers. first of all, we have to see how the situation comes out. there was a statement by the chinese foreign ministry today that seems to point to a potential way out. he could be given permission to study abroad like any other chinese citizen, they said. part of what seems to be happening is maybe some sort of pull and tug between the more reformist side of the chinese government, including the

foreign ministry, and the security services who are more the thugs, who are threatening his family. so this is a fluid situation. there will be time to ask and answer the questions that i do think we need to ask, which -- and i think the central question is, when he was in the embassy, with this meeting coming up, secretary clinton coming, secretary geithner, did u.s. officials -- were they so concerned about this meeting that they kind of hustled through a flimsy agreement that they should have known wasn't really an agreement at all. that's one question. the other question is simple. did he want to leave? if he wanted to leave the embassy, we certainly didn't have any power to keep him there. >> dan senor, let's now go to the second question that we said would circle back to last hour. and that is, should mitt romney

immediately use this for -- >> dark day for freedom. >> yeah, the quote, dark day for freedom. is it a bit premature to be declaring yesterday a dark day for freedom? >> it was the first time he spoke about this issue. the campaign had been inundated with questions from the press about how he felt about it. he said repeatedly, two or three times, if the reports are accurate. so he was not running with, you know, just sort of incomplete information. he was making it clear that if these reports are accurate, these are his concerns. and guys, he is a candidate for president of the united states. every single day, there are foreign policy issues, many of which he'll be asked about. in the previous 72 hours the campaign has been asked a lot about this. he spoke out about it. and his comment was not inconsistent with the criticisms from human rights groups. congress is now dealing with it. >> let me give you a follow-up

question, dan, then. in 2004, we had a campaign as well. and i remember being irritated as were you and many other republicans when people like howard dean were coming out saying that we had lost the war in iraq. and you sat there going, come on, guys. we're on the same team. well, we were on the same team in 2004. we're still on the same team in 2012. don't you think that maybe a more grownup response from mitt romney would have been, you know, if all of these things are true that i'm hearing, then i'm deeply troubled. >> right. >> so you would not have advised him to say that? >> let me say this. in 2004, howard dean saying we have lost the war in iraq is a pretty pretty declar tiff sweeping statement. mitt romney said if these reports are accurate, and he is now letting events play out and letting the administration do what they're doing. and by the way, guys, two days ago, the administration was

attacking mitt romney for not supporting president obama's decision to go after bin laden. talk about injecting foreign policy into the campaign. 48 hours later -- >> good point. >> i think you're right. joe, your point, and your frame of it, is exactly right. i remember chris christie being on "meet the press" a few months back and was asked questions about what the president was doing in afghanistan and iraq. and he said, look, i don't know enough. and i just think mitt romney is playing this completely wrong. he may be right. at the end of the day, his position may be the right one. but, joe, your frame is right. this is troubling if this is right. this is all that's being run. if you are watching him as a suburban mom in colorado or pennsylvania, or north carolina, virginia, or ohio, or florida, you can't feel as if this is someone who is absorbing all the facts. he is a reactionary. >> gene robinson, i'm going to play harold ford jr. and tell me how i'm doing. >> three points only.

>> harold is right, and so is dan. and i'll tell you why. because here i am looking at mitt romney's statement yesterday. and i'm thinking how irresponsible that is. and then dan senor brings up they're responsible ad a few days ago saying, we killed bin laden. but mitt romney, he probably wouldn't have. >> yeah. i agree. >> here is a question. >> so we're at a really ugly stage of american politics, aren't we? >> well, i think we're there. we've been there. but here is a question, and a question for dan. and i ask it not in an accusatory sense, just as a suggestion. mitt romney is going to be the nominee. has he been in touch with the state department? have you or have his foreign policy advisers at all been in touch with the state department to get better information to hear more of the story that's not out there? and i would suggest that as the inevitable nominee and a person who wants to be president and

who has a shot at being president that that might be something we should do in the future. >> so let me say -- to answer that very specifically. one, the campaign has been in close contact with human rights groups that are speaking regularly to the state department and monitoring the situation closely. two, i will simply say we would welcome -- we would welcome regular briefings from the administration on this issue and other foreign policy issues. >> all right. >> well, i'm sure that you'll get them. >> right. >> you know, look, my father said -- >> during the transition. >> with iran when it was making headlines that mitt romney was sort of playing with matches. those words feel like he's just over -- >> guys, he is getting inundated from press from around the world. he said if the reports are accurate. >> i think the right response is to say, i don't know enough about this yet. i'm troubled.

but what about the fact that we have let china manipulate currency to the detriment of the american economy? what about -- >> he agrees with you on that. >> the fact that we let china dump product and drive american jobs out? those are real issues. that's what mitt romney should be talking about. >> all right. let's just add some different dimensions to the foreign policy debates we're having. go to afghanistan. president hamid karzai claiming that the u.s. bowed to his demands when president obama flew to kabul to sign a strategic partnership deal. >> we are propping this guy up for another decade? for another decade. we are propping up this guy that's ready to be a member of the taliban for another decade. >> in the speech calculated to present his strength to the afghan people, karzai made it clear that obama agreed to several of his preconditions, including a ban on the u.s. attacking other countries from its bases within afghanistan. after the bulk of the troops withdraw in 2014.

also, giving afghanistan control of night raids and detention facilities. >> that's so stupid. they don't go on night raids. >> karzai, who tried to present himself as a tough negotiator, also said he rejected an invitation to sign the deal at a ceremony in the u.s. >> oh, yeah. >> so he had that obama. >> gene robinson, we -- a few years ago, we tripled the number of troops in afghanistan. when i feel like we should have come home. we started talking about getting out in 2014. but you and i both know that now that we're staying until 2024, americans are going to be shouting -- as jack jacobs said, we started withdrawing from vietnam in '70, '71, and he had a lot of good friends that got killed the next two years. it's going to be an ugly 10 years. >> yeah, it's going to be an ugly 10 years you and i have been very close on this issue. we achieved our objectives i

think long ago, and now we are engaged in this long process of nation building with a partner like karzai. we are putting our -- you know, our faith and the lives of american -- young american men and women in the hands of hamid karzai. this is not a good idea. >> gene, you know, there's always as we have heard people say the dover test where, you know, when you go and an american is returned to the united states after being killed in action, and they go to dover, the questions are asked. why did he or she die? >> yeah. >> and you know what the answer is here? and it has been this for the past two, three years. to prop up the most corrupt government in the world. one of the most corrupt governments in the world. believing that somehow karzai will bring stability to this nation. it's insanity.

>> joe, even worse, this whole -- the president's whole announcement is premised on the fact that we can negotiate a compromise with the taliban. how about the taliban react to the president's olive branch? boom. within how many hours? >> there's no negotiating with the taliban. >> they just blew -- >> why would they try to reach accommodation when they think they are operating from a position of strength? >> within a few hours of the president's announcement, the taliban blows up, you know, six people. >> and guess what, folks? the taliban -- they are not going away. they live there. this is -- you know, this is the essential fact we keep forgetting. they live there. you know, they can melt away and not call themselves the taliban for five or 10 years, but they are still going to be there. >> gene is dead right, dan. rather we leave in 2012, 2032, 2042, the taliban, whether they call themselves that or not, will still be in the mountains of afghanistan. long after we're gone. >> and they are organized basically within a cellular

structure. there's no real central command and control to the taliban. so even if you could cut a deal with the taliban, the taliban, the idea that the leadership could actually enforce an agreement with all the spinoff groups, is, you know, based on the folks that i've spoken to in the intelligence community that have been following this closely believes that they are highly dubious. >> mika, while we have a $16 trillion debt, we're spending $2 billion a week propping up hamid karzai, while we are cutting education, rnd, transportation, infrastructure, we're spending $2 billion a week propping up karzai. it is lunacy. while social security and medicare zoom towards bankruptcy. we are propping up karzai to the tune of $2 billion a week. this is outrageous. >> it's been years. >> and it's going to be another decade now. >> it's been years since i've heard anyone say, oh, we need to stay there. we need to --

>> i don't believe anyone who's advocating staying on believes it's about propping up karzai. it has the effect of propping up karzai. >> that's all it is. >> but the objective is to actually prevent afghanistan from actually imploding and becoming a complete failed state. where terrorist training camps will be reset up, where there could be a threat to pakistan. you start thinking about all of the -- >> but hasn't iraq taught us anything? as soon as we got out of iraq, it started imploding. whenever we get out of afghanistan, 2024, 2018, it will start imploding. >> did i just hear from you that maybe it was not a great idea for us to yank all of our troops out of iraq? >> it was terrible to get in there in the first place. you guys got us in there. terrible idea. >> how do you deal with afghanistan? so the question -- my question to you is, how do you do it without sending more troops or keeping troops there? because i tend to think the president wants your policy which is stability and to prevent the taliban from coming back. so their belief is that if you

keep troops there, you can achieve that. how would you do it? >> i know you guys are going to laugh at this, but this is true based on the military people i have spoken to and other analysts who have recently been over there. the afghan national security services, the afghan army, is actually gotten a lot better. it's far from perfect. it's gotten a lot better. the numbers are high now. they are performing in certain parts of the country. and the question is, can we keep sending resources to them without sending our troops to the frontline. >> do we leave earlier than 2014? >> we can leave from frontline combat positions. but we have to have some people -- >> the south vietnamese army is going to be able to stand on their own. we heard that too. >> i don't think it's an -- i think it's an imperfect analogy, but we don't have time now because alex is literally yelling in my ear. >> it's a good analogy, but we'll keep talking about it. >> eugene robinson, thank you so much. as usual, you are dead on when it comes to afghanistan. >> yeah. >> and your column actually on

afghanistan is in "the washington post." so if you're at home, make sure you go to washingtonpost.com and read that. >> thank you. >> dan senor, i hope you take today as a teachable moment. very nice to see you. i have definitely learned something. >> we're going to get kosher steaks. in fact, i have been emailing with derek. we are finalizing a date. it will be big. >> are we going to prime? >> we're going to prime grill. >> i go there too. they got good sushi too. >> should we bring harold? >> we'll bring harold with us. >> kosher steak? are you cool with that? i may even get a hug if we take him for kosher steak. >> if it's good. >> if it's good. >> ok. >> the sushi is good. >> up next, tavis smiley and dr. cornel west join us to tackle the problem of poverty and what they call a broken american dream. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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joining us now, we have the co-hosts of "smiley and west" radio show, pbs host tavis smiley and princeton university professor cornel west. co-authors of "the rich and the rest of us." it's so good to have you here. >> we came by to see you in boston. some little party in boston. >> oh, rich tradition. >> a rich tradition. >> have you already uplifted the mood on this set. >> a lot of people i know live in the boston area. >> i know, i know. but obviously, you don't know mike barnicle. so let me -- by the way, we were at a great event last night with mike and ann. >> absolutely. >> do you think barnicle and west shop at the same place? >> look how good you look.

>> so let's talk -- i always wanted to know this. is there -- do you guys talk about where, let's say, the 10 poorest communities are in america? because it seems to me that, you know, jesus says the poor would always be with us. but it seems to me that we need to start going to the hardest t hardest-hit places in america and just like treating a cancer go in and do whatever we can to help the children first, and then help the communities, help the single parents. i mean, how do we focus like a laser on the truly disadvantaged, the most disadvantaged? >> i think part of it has to do with reshifting our framework because we tend to look at the world through the lens of the powerful. think for example about austerity.

that's from the vantage point of the bankers and the investors. when the lenders and bankers are in trouble, they need massive investment, and they get it. so part of it has to do with our framework. when we can't make the kind of decision, even the strategic decision, that your blessed father put forth unless we have a different vision. this is what this book is about. >> tavis, you're a businessman, right? >> yeah. >> you don't throw good money after bad money. >> nope. >> the reality is in america, we spend more money per pupil than any country on earth. on health care, we spend more money on health care per patient, per american, than any country in the world. the results are calamitous. so how do we make sure that when we invest in the future -- because i'm a small government conservative, but i don't -- i don't want a cruel government. i want a smart government. how do we focus that money to make sure that the most disadvantaged kids out there who

have just a blight the existence right now are saved? how can we save them? >> if i can add, when one out of two americans is in or just barely out of poverty, that means half of america is in poverty, that's not a black or brown thing. you can't identify five or 10 or 15 communities where poverty exists. poverty now threatens our very democracy. we argue in the book that poverty is now a matter of national security across the board, left, right, black, white. it's more than just pockets. too many of us are suffering from this right now. >> no doubt. but there are certain pockets -- >> exactly. >> so if we focused on that, it would shock the consciousness of americans. >> but if and when those communities happen to be black and brown, harold, it makes it very difficult to get traction on those issues because now you have a debate in this country as

you always do about whether or not they deserve this, whether or not they made bad choices, whether or not poverty is a character flaw. we call that nonsense in the text. but i say in the book, and dr. west and i go back and forth about this, but my sense is on education specifically, because there's such a clear link, republicans and democrats do agree on this. there's a link between poverty and education or the lack thereof, or mid education put another way. i want to do something radical. i think it's time for a constitutional amendment -- i know everybody stops breathing when you say constitutional amendment. but i think it's time for a constitutional amendment that guarantees every child in this country equal access to a high quality education. you're right about the fact that oftentimes money is not spent well. and i don't think you solve the problem of education by just throwing money at the problem. but if every child in this country -- and i'm not trying to judge outcomes here. but if every child in this country started at the same place, so that every child had equal access to a high quality education, it would change

things. >> my dear brother, that's in the constitution of new york. the new york city just closed 26 schools, philadelphia just closed 64 schools, 300,000 teachers are cut because of the budget for state and local governments, meaning what? even on paper, it's very difficult to translate into practice. so i'm not against the proposal. jesse jackson jr. and others have put forward. but -- >> look, i agree with the whole premise of the book and really not just the book but your work, dr. west, over the years and tavis as well. one of the things that concerns me is that we seem to be not growing as a country and not investing in the right places. at the end of the day, there are always going to be people who make money and want to make more money. that's what the ethos is about, trying to do better. so the question to joe's point, you can go 20 blocks from here and see what you're talking about. or 20 blocks north or west and

see a couple of avenues west and see some of that. the question is in the book, how do you talk about the country growing and where the job opportunities are? because i travel like you guys do for work. and you travel in big epclenclas in medium sized cities, and you see despair. how do we return opportunity to those communities? that at the end of the day i think is the central challenge. if jobs and opportunities are coming back, it doesn't work. be it florida, tennessee, new york. >> that's a fair question, brother. i think one thing you don't do in the middle of a depression, call it a great recession, but it's really a depression when it comes to the poor and working people, it really is, that you don't cut education. you don't cut arts programs. you don't cut research and development. you don't cut investment in infrastructure. because those are the very things that's going to produce the growth long-term. not short-term, but long-term.

then the question becomes, where do you target? i would say education would be fundamental but in the end it's really about jobs with a living wage. >> infrastructure building. your support of that and a believer that drives growth and investment in communities? >> oh, yes. the last chapter in the book lays out 12 ideas. we don't have a monopoly on the truth, but these are 12 ideas that we come up with that we believe we have to embrace now if we're going to be serious about reducing and eradicating poverty. jobs with a living wage. there's great debate about this. but i'm all for raising the minimum wage to at least $10 an hour. we need progressive tax codes. we need to put women and children first. 15 years after the welfare bill that president clinton signed, more women and children are falling into poverty than anybody else in the country. there are some prescriptions we lay out specifically in the book. >> but within all of those prescriptions there's such a deep divide or a conversation at least happening in washington and on this set about our deficit and spending. and so the question would be, where do you even begin?

we listed infrastructure, education, jobs. we could go on. we could list 25 different ways that could solve the problem. how do you focus washington as it is? >> we've got to politically -- we have a breakdown in the political system dominated by big money so you can't have a robust public conversation to get at these kinds of issues. and if we don't have some democratic accountability, the top will continue to squeeze things in such a way that the indifference toward poor people, and we are talking about even stopping for us right now, we've got a trial going on right now, breaking the spirit of the young -- >> verdict today. he has to go back to court. >> i'll be back in court all week with my fellow co-defendants. but break the spirit of young people in that way. >> joe and harold know having searched in congress not since the johnson administration has any administration, republican or democrat, since johnson

declare that we are going to fight a war on poverty, that we are going to win. poverty has not been made a priority in this country. mika's question, where do you start? you start with the president of the united states calling for the eradication of poverty. bring the experts together. there are so many plans that reexist but you have to have a leader on it. >> and the thing is we disagree. i'm sure we could talk about -- you talk about a progressive tax cut. i'm going to disagree on that. you're going to talk about plans for education. i'm going to disagree. >> but that has to be part of the conversation. >> but if you focus, where do we begin, we begin where america hasn't been in a very long time. if we focus on the poor, and if we get the same room and we know that our only goal is helping pull those people that are suffering the most today, we're going to come to a solution together and a plan that's going to work best. >> that's right. >> it's all about the focus. and there has not been a focus. >> and there's a crucial

spiritual dimension of this. once you make poor people a priority, it takes on a life of its own, poor people recognize they are cared for. their voices play a fundamental role. right now they feel invisible. worst thing you can do. >> harold, i know you've seen it too. there has been great wealth created in this country over the past decade. there has been great wealth corrected in this city. harold, i know you see it time and time again. we see it because of the position we're in. there are people, whether you talk about people working -- paul tudor jones with the robin hood foundation or talk about all the people that made a lot of money that are now working throughout harlem and all the schools we have talked about, there is a yearning for a lot of americans to get involved, but they need leadership from the top. >> that yearning is predicated on america growing again. america doesn't grow if these kids aren't learning and not acquiring a skill set to help create jobs and businesses going forward. i think the most important thing that's been said on this side of

the table is that one out of two americans are either in poverty or near it. >> that's right. >> this is an american growth challenge. the anti-growth initiative we have right now if we don't address this. don't get me wrong. joe and i both grew up in church. undoubtedly there's a faith dimension to this. >> and by the way -- >> but the discourse of growth of what's going on with the discourse on justice. >> exactly. >> and that's the difference. we celebrate in the book charity. but there is a difference between philanthropy and justice. the bottom line is poverty is not just a political issue or economic issue or social or cultural issue. it is the moral and spiritual issue of our time. that's the reality. >> and i would argue an economic issue. >> it is an economic issue. we cannot leave 25% of people behind. also, though, the spiritual dimension. we talk about it all the time. jesus was asked by his disciples, what's the one thing

we have to do to get to heaven? and jesus, read it in matthew 25. and you've got to have faith. >> to the least of these. do unto me. >> exactly. give a cup of water in the master's name and feed the hungry and clothe the poor. visit people in prisons. by the way, you know how i know that harold ford jr. grew up in a baptist church just like me? >> he told you? >> first of all -- [ laughter ] >> hold on. >> as if you couldn't tell. >> first of all -- >> by his fruit shall know him. >> in 2006, i saw the ads, in the pews, and praying to jesus. and he goes, oh, hi. i'm harold ford jr. i'm running for senate. but all good baptist preachers know that the baptist congregation before they split and have to go to the buffet line can only handle three points. so the good southern baptist preachers always have three

points, just like harold ford jr. i have three points to make. >> political speeches have three points. >> in a black church, five closes. [ laughter ] all right. the book is "the rich and the rest of us." tavis smiley, dr. cornel west, thank you for being on the show. >> thank you so much. we'll be right back. today, we stand against the tyranny of single mile credit cards. battle speech right? may i? [ horse neighs ] for too long, people have settled for single miles. with the capital one venture card, you'll earn double miles on every purchase, every day! [ visigoths cheer ] hawaii, here we come. [ alec ] so sign up today for a venture card at capitalone.com. and start earning double. [ all ] double miles! [ brays ] what's in your wallet? can you play games on that? not on the runway. no.

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welcome back to "morning joe." now on monday's show, we're going to be talking to senator ron wyden about his plan to reshape medicare and why he is being beaten about and abused by other democrats in the senate. also, dr. brzezinski. he'll probably heap a little abuse on me. >> now, now. >> and up next, author edward luce from the financial times and he is here to break down the nation's biggest challenges from soaring debt to the rise of china. "morning joe" is back in a minute.

if you made a list of countries from around the world... ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list. in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation.

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"financial times" edward luce, out with the new book "time to start thinking." and edward shared the cover of "the new york times" book review with your father. >> that was really fun to read. on a number of levels. watching them intertwine the two books. >> i couldn't think of anybody i'd rather share a cover with than your dad. >> oh, thank you. >> so i think it's time to start drinking, as they say said. >> it's not that. it's called time to start thinking, not drinking. >> but america in the age of did i -- age of dissent. you're a little less optimistic than brzezinski. >> i think mika's father would probably be more in my camp, yes, because i don't see your political system addressing these challenges. the challenges posed by relative economic decline. namely, that the rest of the world is rising, barring europe. your share of the global economy has gone from about 1/3 to about a quarter.

>> isn't this, edward, though, inevitable? we americans don't face the fact that we owned the world stage in the 1950s because, well, the world was in ruins. you had -- britain was exhausted. russia was exhausted. and of course the rest of europe lay in ruins. so -- >> it's inestestitabvitable. i don't think that political paralysis in the face of some of these challenges should be inevitable, though, because you're exacerbating a natural phenomenon. >> and how so? >> but not doing really basic obvious stuff like getting from your infrastructure back to first world levels. it's really descended to second world. by having the kinds of spending on research and development you were doing in the 1950s and 1960s. >> right. eisenhower after sputnik, extraordinary investment in science. >> exactly. >> and the payback was a

thousand fold. >> and the internet which we all hold in our palm now. >> you also say that the united states actually isn't handling the debt crisis as well as great britain. that while cameron is getting hammered over there, even labor believes that the deficit has to be tackled. >> i think britain feels it has much less choice. it peered over an even steeper abyss in a way, because it relies even more on its financial sector than the united states does for growth. and of course, that went belly-up. and it doesn't -- sterling is not the reserve currency. when the rest of the world is in crisis, they don't rush to sterling. they rush to the dollar. in britain, i don't happen to agree with austerity in britain. i don't think it's working. i think it's predictable that it's not working. but across the board politically, there's pretty much a consensus that they have to continue down this path. >> even other leaders of the labor? >> they say we should do it, but

less fast. but it's not like the tea party, you know, debate with the obama administration. there's no clear blue sea between the parties in britain. >> the tone of your book is at least the substance a little pessimistic but the tone is optimistic. the challenges we face, we can fix. we were that close to getting a budget deal, at least the accounts in some of the national newspapers. they blame one side or the other. but it looks like we were close. on immigration which you talk about in the book, we are close. we can change this. we've had a conversation about infrastructure. so i guess my question is, these problems we created ourselves. if we are to reverse these and, say, either a newly elected administration or the current administration, but these decisions that have been made, four years ago there was great hope all these things would happen. don't we have the opportunity to turn this around and find ourselves in a much improved position? >> things like immigration, having a medium turn fiscal agreement, yes. reversing the financial decline,

that's been decades in the making and it will take decades to get out of it. >> we can't even decide how to turn that around, which is a problem. donny? >> and i think the fundamental dna that's kind of strewn throughout us right now, fundam as far as we are a generation. our generation and the generations coming up, nobody wants to sacrifice. obviously, at the end of the day, to fix any of these things is about sacrifice. there is no constituency, whether it is entitlements that any of us or rich people that pay another 3%, 4% taxes. in our dna is lack of sacrifice, to me, that is the biggest mountain to climb. >> >> i agree. what i would call the tomorrow part of the budget, about 15%, infrastructure, education. the only bit that's been frozen. all of yesterday's stuff, the entitlements, interest on past

debt, defense to some extent, although that has had cuts, that's all still growing. it should be the other way around. if your system had the prague ma mattism that it used to have, an american word, pragmatic. if you were operating and thinking pragmatically, you would be keeping the tomorrow bit of the budget, the productive potential of the future american economy growing and you are doing it the wrong way. >> that's what we say around here every day, edward, that you've got both sides that are willing to slash the 12%-15% of the budget, which is actually the part where we invest in the future. we invest in infrastructure, r&d, and education. but, washington won't touch medicare. they won't touch social security. they won't touch the defense budget in a meaningful way. they won't reform the tax code that is -- it is overly complex.

this is not that tough. but you are right. they are cutting from the wrong pile and leaving the one that's growing fastest. it is going to crowd everybody else out. they are leaving that alone. >> that's kind of what troubles me most. it is not difficult to see what america should be doing. it is not particularly idealogical. they are not actually idealogical. it is not difficult to see what should be. it is really difficult to imagine a scenario where it will be done. that's the problem. the political system isn't sparking. it hasn't been sparking in a meaningful way for quite a long time. i don't think it is just washington that's to blame. you know washington well. i think the polarization you are seeing in washington has deep roots outside the beltway in the economy, in the polarization of the middle class. >> and the polarization of the media world. no doubt about it. >> i'm more optimistic than y'all, than the tone here. >> i think everybody is optimistic around the table if washington does the right thing,

the obvious thing, then america will be fine. that's, though rs the question, are we going to continue to invest in the past or start investing in the future? unfortunately, over the past five, ten years -- >> sounds presidential. that's where this race has got it going. this debate has to get to. >> unfortunately, neither side has the courage to make the decisions. >> i think this time next year, we are really going to know whether you are capable, you as a country, are capable of regaining that pragmatic sense. we face the lame duck sessions after november, taxes and fiscal. will congress raise to the challenge and take sensible decisions? >> edward, thank you for coming. the book is called "time to start thinking." by the way, you told me, i went to norich and saw a proper

football match with ed balls, the shadow chancellor. you say he got his start at ft. >> he did. he owes everything to the financial times. >> let's go ahead to april jobs numbers due out within the hour. you are watching "morning joe." thanks so much. [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota.

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or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? if you made a list of countries from around the world...y day! ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list. in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation. let's get back to the head of the class. let's solve this.

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so they can focus on building amazing bikes. with xerox, you're ready for real business. ♪ good morning. it is 8:00 on the east coast. as you take a live look at new york city on this friday morning. back with us on set, we have donny deutsch and ed rendell. >> we always say and we warn people on both sides of the ledger, the yankees side and the red sox side, what a long season this is. i remember, i was listening to

michael kay when the sox were 4-11 and the yankees had come back. all the yankees fans were saying, we got them, we got them. that's what kay said. we are a lot older than the sox. when you are old, bad things happen. and it happened. he said, we may not even get to august, september. last night, something really big for yankees fans, possibly the greatest relief pitcher ever, unfortunately. >> he is the greatest relief pitcher ever. last night in kansas city. mar mariana riviera. he fancies himself a center fielder. he wants to play in center field. a great athlete. tore up his knee. it was twisted and then went to the hospital in there in kansas city to find out tichlts a torn acl. he is done for the season. at least he said in spring training that he thought this might be his last year, which would lead you to believe that

could have been the last image we see of the great mariano r f rivera. >> 42 post-season saves will never be broken, ever. >> and a .7 era. dark day for yankee fans. >> no doubt about it. >> have you been following what's been going on in china. "the new york times" talking about the possibility of a bunkling governor, a bunkling of this case for the united states and tough questions for the obama administration. more importantly, there is going to be second-guessing. republicans already overreaching in the second-guessing. now is the time i would say, follow eisenhower and other leaders' belief that politics sometimes should stop at the

water's edge. the obama administration has some tough decisions to make about this dissident. >> we have to wait to see how this plays out. i believe china has common interest with us. they want this guy out where he can't do any harm internally. i think we want him out. i think it will have a good resolution. >> you think if we go ahead and get him out, work a deal, i don't think that will hurt our interest in china. >> no, i think it is in their interest. i don't think they want this guy as a symbol. >> all right. mika, we have got some news, some business coming up today. >> yes, we do. let's start with mitt romney, run his comments, criticizing the administration on that. i would like to hear your comments on that. this morning, the labor department will release new jobs numbers for april. they are predicting that they added just 163 jobs last month. that is up from the 120,000 jobs

created in march but well short of 246,000 jobs created between december and february on average. unemployment is expected to remain the same at 8.2%, a three-year low. we are going to have the official numbers for you when that data comes in at 8:30 eastern time. we will bring that to you live. >> governor, i heard people around bill clinton would always look at one number. that one number, as far as when the president started to get nervous, was gas prices, because bill clinton, as we know, is good as any politician ever. he knows that's when it starts hitting working class americans, middle class americans. is this jobs number what we are going to be looking at throughout the year, to gauge president obama? i'm not talking about we around this table. i'm talking about americans who are deciding whether to fire him or rehire him. >> i think we've made so much of the jobs number over the last year that i think the public is starting to put that on it. joe, i think what the jobs

number is in early may isn't important. it looks to me like this economy is going to bump along until november just as we are going. some progress, not enough for the obama administration to claim. it is over, really over. not enough for the republicans to really broadside. >> here is what the jobs number will tell you. in the last 50 years, any president where the jobs number has been going in the right direction over the last two years has won. every president where it has been going in the wrong direction over two years has lost. in 2010, november, it was 9.7%. now, it is 8.2%. most economists are predicting about 7.9. if history shows us or even if it stays where it is, 50 years of history. >>. i have to ask you. what economists are you talking about at a nightclub? >> i want to go back to the headlines. >> stop, stop, first of all, stop, donny. what economist is telling you that things are going to stay

the same or get better? i would like to talk to them. i hope that's the okay. >> let's say they get worse and even if it goes back up to 8.5%. over the last 50 years, any time over two years it has been lower -- look at that little smirk. you look like a bad little boy. >> i love it when you try to play grownup around the story. >> i'm a historian, basically. that's what i am. >> he was a historian too. >> i was being so serious, throwing the facts out there. >> let me ask you this. >> where do you come up with 7.9? >> he made it up. >> donny, let's do this. you do get, forget the numbers, you get more importantly the gut of the american. whatever you say. so here is good news, mortgage rates sink to new low.

that should be great news. that's only great news for people like us around the table that when we walk into the banks, people go, oh, yeah, we will loan you whatever you want. you are basically borrowing money for free. look at the sub-headlines. this is what's important. if you are a small business, a struggling middle class worker, you can't get those loans. the credit is stim tight. that's the sort of thing that i think angers americans. isn't that the sort of thing that not just president but congress has to figure out how they break up that log jam and loosen the credits so small businesses can hire. >> especially with what's been done. >> as you have talked a lot on this show, the amount of money sitting on balance sheets, particularly in financial institutions. >> obviously, new regulations make things a little bit difficult. until that happens, until credit gets a bit greased, we have a little problem. >> willie, have you ever seen

anybody with more -- kate made this for me. this is very special. it means a lot to me. have you ever seen a man, a man with more things around his wrist than donny? >> i learned since i got a daughter, you put things on your body that you never thought you would for your daughter. whatever you got to do. >> he mocks my children. every one of these -- both of these were given to me by london. this was london and daisy. >> you just have a lot more children than me. >>s a fellow father -- >> by the way, willie, he gets some of those from children he has never even met. >> that's -- >> at least he is not wearing the purple watch today. we are moving in the right direction. >> do you think that suit has donny's name inside it? >> no question. >> viewers at home. >> please don't open your jacket. >> of course, it does. >> no. no. >> i don't really -- i am not

interested. >> these are tough times for everybody. >> he just made mine a little tougher. >> donny raised the unemployment rate .6% in 30 seconds. you are bad for america doing that. one thing we should point out. this isn't about president obama. we said it when george bush was president. that jobs number is a tough one to read. when it ticks down a little bit, some people have come out. the underemployment is still 17%, 18%. whatever that number says, there are still a lot of people out there that weren't included in that number. >> it does gauge what donny said. it does gauge progress. that's what the american people are focusing on, progress. i don't think it is going to come fast enough for the obama administration to say, we've done it. >> the question also, back to the point you made with the real housing number. usually, that number is a sign. you see movement around it that makes you feel the number makes sense.

if unemployment goes down, is there movement around it? >> president obama officially kicks off his 2012 re-election campaign tomorrow in virginia. a lively key battleground state in the general election. according to a new washington post poll the president leads romney by seven points. among women, he leads by 18 points. 56% to 38%. exit polling shows obama beat senator mccain by seven percentage points among women in virginia. he spent several days campaigning including an event with bob mcdonald and michele bachmann. congresswoman bachmann used the opportunity to endorse romney as the party's nominee framing the general election as a basic choice. >> i think for all of america, this is a very simple proposition this november. president barack obama, president mitt romney.

you decide. very easy. >> the democratic national committee responded saying, how did mitt romney buy the endorsement of tea party leader and anti-choice crusader michele bachmann by selling out america's women to the extreme gop base that wants to defund planneded parenthood, restrict women's access to preventative health care, and turn back the clock on women's health? >> did you see this -- >> do you really want me to do the next story? >> is this real? >> fox is in the abyss. >> he doesn't like fox. osama bin laden didn't like fox. you wouldn't expect him too. he thought cnn was a government sanctioned bill. he had the bumper stickers on

camels for years. he says he wants to target cbs news, because he says they are fair. >> he also had specific correspondence in mind. >> who? >> brian ross at abc. >> he is good. >> of course. he is always first with the story. he is good. >> and the action news team. >> do you believe that? >> i can't even look at her face. >> stop it, donny. >> talk to this. you have a tanning booth in your home. >> this woman, one of the sick stories, tanning the 5-year-old child. >> she says she did not. >> repulsive. >> you are following this story, aren aren't you. >> she was sitting there next to her mom talking and the tanning bed got her. it is just wrong. she is in there so much, the kid probably wanted to go see her mom. >> i can't even look at her. >> look at her. she is in there all the time.

>> that's the only time you can see her. >> hey, mom. >> can i ask you a quick question, governor, about virginia? >> you really want me to do this next story at some point. >> i know i do. i'm sure i do. >> i always say states return to the type the closer you get to election. republicans always say, we are going to win pennsylvania in june. i no he they will pull out in october, because republicans don't win pennsylvania. we know ohio is going to be close, florida is going to be close. all of these states go true to form. pennsylvania will break democratic at the end. virginia, what happened in virginia over the past four years that has actually made it look more blue than red? this is the state as you know when you ran the party. democrats have been after virginia for years. why now is this going stronger in the democratic. >> i think northern virginia,

the federal government, federal government workers, has continued to build up its demographic and its numbers. i think the north now somewhat outvotes the south. same thing in pennsylvania. the reason republicans can't carry pennsylvania is the philadelphia suburbs where the modern republicans used to be and the independents has gone consistently democratic in presidential elections. >> take me through the electoral game. i still don't see it, how romney wins virginia. he is losing badly at this point. even if he takes florida and ohio, some of the big swing states, the nevadas that he took last year, new mexico, what's the road on the electoral map? pennsylvania i agree with you is really not in play. how does he get there? >> the same way george w. bush got there. >> if he loses -- >> he has to win florida. he has to win ohio, indiana. he has to go back and win

indiana, iowa. it is only three electoral votes. he has to win new hampshire. he has to win arizona. right now, that's a tough one. you have new mexico, obviously, that he is going to have to play. >> how does he win there? >> how does he win new mexico? >> it is too early to tell. it is the final weekend. we saw this on friday before the 1980 election. deadlocked. nobody knew until jimmy cartter got the internal polls on sunday, i think it was. he teared up the next day. nobody knew until the day before the election that the entire country just swung. it can swing widely either way. i don't know about you. i campaigned around the clock. i never, i'll be blunt with you, i never met anybody that campaigned harder than me. they may have campaigned as hard as me. i don't know anybody that campaigned harder. i will tell you, on monday morning, i just shut down.

i stopped campaigning. you know why? because it hit me people had decided. that goes against convention. most voters decide on that weekend before. they are sitting around the table on saturday or sunday. that's why husbands and wives, brothers and sisters talk to each other. they go, so what do you think? what do you think about this romney guy? one might say, he is just too out of touch. another might say, obama doesn't know how to bring jobs. it is that gut level in the end. virginia is not lost for romney. sev seven points in early may doesn't mean it is over. it is going to be hard because of what he said in the primary campaigns. >> if he can reestablish himself with moderate republicans and independent voters, and convince them he is the middle of the road, he has a shot. >> the important april employment report is due out in a few minutes. we will have an analysis on that. kathleen turner will join us to

talk about her new film and find out which of these stories make the cut in willie's weekend review. here is the weekend forecast with the great bill karins. >> the compliment on her birthday. i'm in like gold now. we are watching severe weather this afternoon. that's the big story. we are in may. this is tornado season. one thing it interesting. we could see some strong thunderstorms today. new jersey, from new york city to philadelphia to d.c., we already had one round this morning, another one this afternoon. from nebraska to iowa, to illinois, watch out later today for strong storms. here is your forecast. the southern half of the country, very warm. hot conditions from dallas to san antonio. the northern ahalf of thalf rem stormy. it is not going to rain all day. they are summertime thunderstorms that will roll in and out. we are going to have a dry day in much of new england. saturday, the big event. the kentucky derby.

two most exciting moments in minutes there. we have 83 today for the oaks. the derby on saturday, 40% chance of thunderstorms. the race is right around 6:00 to 7:00. they will be ducking in and out of those storms. a look at churchill downs. right now, the twin spears for the oaks. tomorrow, a lot of question marks. you are watching "morning joe." have a great weekend. we are brewed by starbucks. (female announcer) most life insurance companies look at you and just see a policy. at aviva, we do things differently. we're bringing humanity back to life insurance. that's why only aviva rewards you with savings for getting a check-up. it's our wellness for life program, with online access to mayo clinic.

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i worked at the colorado springs mail processing plant for 22 years. we processed on a given day about a million pieces of mail. checks, newspapers, bills. a lot of people get their medications only through the mail. small businesses depend on this processing plant. they want to shut down 3000 post offices, cut 100,000 jobs. they're gonna be putting people out of work everywhere. the american people depend on the postal service.

i've got news. i've been nominated for catholic woman of the year. >> yeah. that's great. >> what's wrong? >> patty called. >> he left her again. >> he'll be back. >> oh, jesus, please, help our son, frank jr. to stop being an idiot and go back to his wife and children. amen. >> 23 past the hour. that was a scene from the new movie the perfect family. joining us now, the star of the film, academy award-nominated actress, kathleen turner. >> it is good to be here. i watch it a great deal. >> she watches the show. >> that's exciting. you know you are very lucky because mike barnicle is not here today. >> i wouldn't go that far. >> he is our resident catholic.

>> the perfect family. >> i think we can all relate to this because nobody around this table has a perfect family. >> i don't believe anybody has a perfect family. >> the not even close. >> there are problems with this. not only has her son left his wife and children and is having an affair with a manicurist. her daughter has come out as a lesbian, five months pregnant and she is under review by the archdiocese about her suitability of winning the catholic woman of the year. >> wow. >> it's a bit of a comedy. >> like who would be the perfect catholic woman of the year? >> kathleen, we talked during the break. this is a different business model with this movie as far as the way you are opening it. >> it is very much so. we are opening in theaters today in l.a. and new york. we are also at the same time going on demand. then, we will go wide on the

11th. this way, we get to release it ourselves. it is an independent film. we shot it in 19 days, which was really quite an achievement. >> no studio? >> no studio involvement. we are doing it ourselves. which is great. >> how many actors come on the set and tell us that now? ed burns was in here saying. >> it is possible now. it hasn't been for so long. >> right to itunes, right to on demand. >> as you know, the catholic church is not thrilled with this picture. >> we are starting to get quite some feedback. >> is this film a commentary on family or really a commentary on the catholic church? >> i think it is about family. ultimately, the strongest result that they have for each other and the support they give each other is the strongest element in the film. to my mind, this is not about catholicism per se. it is about any organized religion that is so exclusive

and says, this is the only way you may be. that's not just catholicism. that's many others. >> so playing a devoutly catholic woman, would that be in line with who you are in real life? >> absolutely not. i had to read this stuff. >> i am wondering how you found the zone. >> well, i did a lot of reading on what the actual doctrines and tenets of the church are. being chairman of the board of advocate for planned parenthood for 18 years for one thing, on the board of people for the american way, no, i am not entirely sympathetic to this character. >> that's why i am wondering what the challenge was to embrace your role? what did you find to help you connect with the character that you played? there has got to be something about the catholic church that

you found. >> what i found the most connection is that the woman is a good woman. she really is. she is not judgmental. she is not intolerant. she is trying to make this. she has accepted the rigidity of this way of life that the church has given her. how do you make that work in the real world with people that you love so desperately like your family? now, that's interesting to me. >> so what i think is so fascinating about we were talking about the way you guys are doing this. it's fascinating immediately on demand, at the same time it's been released. it reminds me of journalism. we always have young students asking us, should we get into journalism and things are changing so quickly. we always say the same thing. if you know how to write a sentence. if you know how to tell a story, it doesn't matter what the medium is, what the delivery is, you will be fine. it is the same thing here with an actor or an actress or a script writer, right?

the good story survives. >> the story and the quality of the work, the acting, the directing, all of that, doesn't change. what really has changed is how we access it to other people. it's all been -- the bottle neck has always been the studio system that controls the distribution. the choice used to be, you would have to sell the film to a studio in order to have it distributed. then, you don't necessarily get to decide how you present it or even what the final cut may be. so this way we can maintain control of it, what we think the pieces actually are. >> somebody comes to you in romancing the stone or body heat or peggy sue -- >> it goes on. >> it goes on and on and on. your agent would probably say, hey, got this idea for this movie. six months later, you may see a script and six months later, it may be scratched. in this case, though -- >> i was very instrumental in

helping to develop this. >> you can do it quickly. more quickly. >> i get the script. i do read a lot of material, what comes in. i am always looking for ideas. i thought this one was very intriguing. i got ahold of the directors and the writers on the phone. we had a two-hour session on what was there, what was needed, what was unnecessary. they came back with a rewrite about three months later. they would use pretty much all of my suggestions, which, of course, made me think well of them. >> brilliant. i met the director and thought that that would be a very workable thing. >> you were able to do it very quickly. >> nineteen days, honey. >> amazing. >> before you go, really quickly, after your research and then executing this project, do you have any more? you said you were unsympathetic sympathy for the doctrines of the catholic church?

>> one of the other elements that comes out is how much service she is able to do through the outreach programs of the church to take food to the homebound, to visit the sick. all of these programs that the church creates and sustains, that, yes, of course, i do. i do that in real life too. >> the perfect family is in select theaters and on demanded to. thanks very much. >> i was thrilled to be here. >> we are thrilled to have you here. thanks so much. >> we will be right back with the april unemployment report. >> probably not as thrilling. >> new details from the documents seized during the raid on osama bin laden's come pound. i went to a small high school.

the teacher that comes to mind for me is my high school math teacher, dr. gilmore. i mean he could teach. he was there for us, even if we needed him in college. you could call him, you had his phone number. he was just focused on making sure we were gonna be successful. he would never give up on any of us.

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i love brian sullivan but this band we have to play every time we bring him in, it is a stain on his resume. >> brian sullivan is here. live at cnbc global headquarters. he has the numbers. >> not hearing good things about them. >> it is not a good number, guys. i do appreciate the rush. there are plenty of other fine bands, willco, radio head. >> willco next.

>> let's move on. 115,000 jobs created last month, well below the consensus estimate. that is a terrible number. the unemployment rate did drop to 8.1% but only because fewer people are in the workforce. you have to be looking for a job to be counted. the labor force participation rate, 63.6%. all in all, a lousy number. this is not good politically. it is also maybe a call to action by the federal reserve to have to think about doing a third round of quantitative easing, qe-3. >> brian, this is the second month of bad numbers. the second month that the unemployment rate didn't go up, because less people are looking for work. >> that's what it comes down to. there is going to be a movement to blame this on the weather. you say weather was nice.

why would that hurt? i think about the guy that will plow my driveway. i live in the burbs. there are certain businesses tied to certain part of the weather good and bad wechltathe. i am not a big blame the weather kind of guy. certainly, there were some impacts there. not a good number. whichle see we will see if the reserves does anything. >> another weak month on the jobs front. what does it mean? >> everyone on the set knows this will create some momentum in terms of romney's posture and leaning a s leani leaning a certain way. i guess the question i would have tore brian, in addition to weather, what can be done over the next few months in terms of a public/private partnership to

help accelerate? does this give momentum to a tax reform bill? does this give momentum to some additional level. i would agree with you about the fed and the pressure it may impose on them. what does this mean for government? >> good to see you earlier this week in kra krachlt here is tca. do we probably need something? >> yes absolutely. >> will we get something? >> no. are we going to see any big ideas and concepts put on by either party? feds have a mandate, control inflation, make sure prices don't get out of control and maximize employment. the federal reserve is going to have to bank on that second one. i don't think we will get anything politically for the next three months. that's a shame. you and i talked about it earlier. maybe america just doesn't do big things. certainly, we have to considerate some point. before you let me go, i need to

highlight this point. we are adding more than 100,000 people to the population via immigration, new births, et cetera, every month. what this number means is essentially no net new jobs were created. this is basically just keeping up with population growth. we need to bring people back to work who are unemployed. >> these numbers are so vexing, willie geist. i think there is only one thing we can do, only one person we can go to. this is our john mast chair for stat stat statiticians. >> hiring through the rest of 2012 will lag the brisk pace set in the year. it will be strong enough to push the employment below 8%. that's the view that emerges from the "associated press" of 32 economists. the "associated press" survey of 32 economists. brian, i was mocked earlier in

the show. do you agree with the "associated press" survey? >> donny, you can get 32 economists to say the exact opposite as well. let's repate tree eight all that money that's abroad. let's make a deal with the corporations. they are not dwg to get it at zero. we are not going to get it at 35. let's get it at 15. put it in a pay for infrastructure revitalization program and create construction and manufacturing jobs. we can do this and do it in a month if we cut a deal. >> governor, most people don't work for big companies. >> no, no, but they do work on construction sites, in steel mills and asphalt and concrete production. that's where they work. those are the good blue collar jobs. we need an infrastructure fund. there is money out there. repay tree eight that money. >> why would i repatriot money if i no he i am going to get whacked on taxes.

>> would that work, brian, 15%? >> we are one of the few countries that taxes any overseas profits. that's why we are seeing countries in singapore and taiwan. i didn't make the tax laos. if i'm a corporation, a smart cfo, if there is any penalty to bring the money back here, i am going to keep it overseas. >> you know they want to bring that money back, because they want to jam it into shareholder dividends and profits. we have some leverage. >> we haven't seen it. >> let's cut a nice deal and use it to produce jobs. >> i don't disagree with you. shoutout to my ep, sandy candle. he wins the bet with vul sullivan. i get to take him out. >> he is a punk. he is. >> brian sullivan, thank you. have a good weekend! >> thank you so much. coming up, inside the bin laden documents.

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newly released documents, with what osama bin laden was up to his final days. new details on what navy s.e.a.l.s found in the compound. osama bin laden looked a far cry from america's most wanted terrorist. documents seized in last year's raids revealed he was still intent on killing americans. the documents show he had ordered al qaeda to assassinate

president barack obama or general petraeus. kilo 'bama or petraeus, not biden, gates or mullen. they say he was incapable of such a plot and bin laden boarded on delusion. >> he had a vision for al qaeda. >> reporter: relentless air strikes had taken out most of al qaeda's top leaders. al qaeda central was in disarray and he was losing his grip. he was alarmed at how al qaeda affiliates were kill willing more musliming than foreigner rs. >> all of the sudden, people start to say, excuse me, we hate the americans and we still do but we don't see you guys as a solution either, because all you do is kill us. >> bin laden wrote, focus on the desired goal, killing americans. the affiliates ignored bin

laden's order. >> so damaged is al qaeda's image that bin laden even considered changing his name. >> reporter: despite his troubles, he was focused on how al qaeda to exploit the emerging arab spring. in less than a week before he was killed, he wrote orders, insigi incite people who have not yet revolted. >> bin laden is still gone but the threat lives on. >> there is still a lot of danger out there. i believe we are making progress. it is not just about killing the messenger. you have to take on the message. >> take on the message. >> jim mick ka chefsky reporting. >> that's so fascinating is they focused on egypt and bringing a radical islamic government to egypt and yet the arab spring

was as big a blow to him as those drone attacks. he saw that his way was not the way to the future. >> that's why i think syria is so important. i am not sure we are following the right path in syria. that's really crucial. if we were to be able to take down that government, i think that's a real blow to iran. >> that would be big. willie, you were you can taing about this great moment from iraq center when brian williams was interviewing hillary. >> we saw the secretary of state. she tells the story of the weekend when they had to keep the secret. she couldn't tell president clinton or anybody. she was at a wedding and one of her friends walks up to her and says, when in the hell, are we going to catch osama bin laden. she looked at her and got this look on her face and said, i need to excuse myself and left

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i get my cancer medications through the mail. now washington, they're looking at shutting down post offices coast to coast. closing plants is not the answer. they want to cut 100,000 jobs. it's gonna cost us more, and the service is gonna be less. we could lose clientele because of increased mailing times. the ripple effect is going to be devastating. congress created the problem. and if our legislators get on the ball, they can make the right decisions.

it is time for the weekend review. we sure hope the kids have gone

off to school. what we are about to show you could frighten children. here she is, the tan lady. >> i tan. she doesn't tan. it is called a tanning booth and a tanning room. >> at number three, mommy tannest. >> i am in the booth. she is in the room. that's all there is to it. >> an extra crispy new jersey mother callsed americans everywhere to adjust the settings on their tvs when she glowed into the national news by pleading not guilty to charges she took her 5-year-old daughter with her into a tanning bed. >> she is my little girl. i am going to bring my little daughter into a 90-degree bed. i mean, that's not normal. >> the woman who makes george hamilton and john boehner look downright pasty drew a strong review, even from noted new jersey bronzing enthusiast, snooki, who stepped forward as the voice of responsible tanning.

saying, quote, that b -- is crazy. end quote. at number two. don't feed the animals. just a few months after a 3-year-old became a web sensation by staring down a lion through the plexiglas at a zoo, a lionesses at the oregon view in portland saw an afternoon snack in a 1-year-old perched for a family photo. zookeepers say the kids striped jacket probably made him look to the mama lion like a tasty baby zebra. >> is delicious. the number one story of the week. >> in the pre-dawn darkness of afghanistan, we can see the light of a new day on the horizon. >> president obama made a surprise visit to afghanistan this week on the one-year anniversary of the death of osama bin laden. an anniversary republicans

accused him of celebrating a bit too loudly. >> you know, the thing about heroes, they don't brag. >> mitt romney partied like it was 1979, taking a couple of potshots at jimmy carter, first about the president's order to go after bin laden. >> you wouldn't have given the order, governor? >> even jimmy carter would not have given that order. >> then, for the current economic malaise. >> who would have guessed we would have looked back at the cartter years as the good old days. >> it was romney's wife, ann, fighting against the image of the stiff, overstarched man. >> there us a wild and crazy man inside here. >> a man who wore his wild and crazy on the outside finally did what most people had thought he had done some time around st. patrick's day and formally left the raise. >> that was probably my most clever campaign. >> still, more clever than this woman's visit to the surface of the sun. >> that's not normal.

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will come back. time to talk about what we learned today. i just learned from our friends at cnbc, a couple other numbers to round out this unemployment rate. our friends at cnbc tell us that this is the lowest level of labor participation. people out in the workforce percentagewise since 1981, right before the huge reagan recession of '82/'83. discouraged workers swelled by over 100,000, 12% in the past month. >> having said that, joe, you know the number that's going to be reported. 8.1. >> i am just saying this to say, willie, if i'm the president, i'm talking about 8.1%. it looks, according to these numbers at cnbc like really rough months ahead. >> his message is another month where we added jobs. we are moving in the right direction. let's not stop it now. >> i am the one to prepare because my personal survey of 32 economists. >> all right, governor. what do you